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‘I think we choose our friends. Somehow their presence in your life makes you feel good. Steve made me feel good. And when you embrace a friend, you know if the feeling is real. And I want to believe, anyway, that he knew that.’ – John Kander
‘You’re always there for me. Even though you’re gone. Thank you. Thank you. For you’re always there for me.’ – Bernadette Peters
Made by Steve's friends, with Steve friends.
Peter Jones and Maria Friedman are old friends. Now, halfway through the wood, in a world without Steve, they find themselves taking dreams, readjusting them.
Maria Friedman:I wouldn't have my house, my career, my family without him. He gave me a person who didn't go to school, who left home at 15, who had no talent of any sort that you could really look at. Didn't get trained in singing, didn't get trained in acting, didn't nothing. He saw something in me and he shone a light on a path that led me to, I would say, 90% of my friends to this date. I honestly don't know what I would have done without him. I actually can't even talk about it. I haven't talked about it. Because he belonged to everyone, he belongs to everyone. I haven't really allowed myself to feel that personal, that that thing, that my loss my loss was profound.
Peter E. Jones:I can't even imagine the person I would be now if it hadn't been for him. But like the song says, now you're on your own and I feel the same. I think a lot of us do, you know. We he he did all he could for us and now we have to go forward.
Martin Milnes:Welcome to Loving You, The Untold Sondheim. A podcast made by Steve's Friends with Steve's Friends. Hosted by me, Martin Milnes.
Peter E. Jones:And me, Peter E. Jones.
Martin Milnes:When PJ and I decided to produce this podcast, we had no idea that Steve's Friends would share with us so openly such a wealth of love. Their treasured memories have immortalized the untold Sondheim forever. In fact, after chatting to Steve's friends, PJ and I realized that our guests had painted an unprecedented portrait not just of Steve's final years, but also the weeks, days, and moments immediately prior to his passing on 11/26/2021. In this, our series finale, Steve's friends unite one last time to share a deeply personal story, a final chance to remember not Sondheim the legend, but our friend, Steve. So to get things going, Steve's much loved confidant of forty five years, the inevitable Julia McKenzie. Here, as always, in her beautiful garden by the sea. Maestro, if you please. In the February, Steve found happiness with his longtime partner, Jeff. And Julia recalls a very special phone call from Steve on New Year's Day twenty eighteen.
Julia McKenzie:I remember I phoned him, no he phoned me, on New Year's morning and I said, well happy New Year Steve. And he said, well it will be because we just got married. And he said, and you're the only person in your godforsaken country who knows at the moment. So I said, well, what do you want me to do? Tell people or not? And I I didn't like to ring round in case it was going to be a big announcement.
Martin Milnes:After Steve's marriage to Jeff, his final years became a pageantry of celebration. Global revivals of his work at last received both critical acclaim and commercial success. And as Steve approached his ninth decade, his friends John Kander and Adam Guettel noticed a change.
Adam Guettel:He was happier. He began to realize he had really made it. And also as the world caught up to him, which is what happens if you're lucky, I guess, he began to realize that he had really made a real impact. And I think that helped him be more relaxed.
John Kander:The Steve that I knew in the last ten years of his life was a much less tormented person than I had known early on, a much more peaceful person. We were not the kind of friends where he would call me up and say that this is what is hurting me at the moment, but we were sensitive enough to each other to display that in our behavior. I think something happens to you if you're lucky and you live long enough, and that is you begin to find out what you mean. A lot of things that you think are battles when you were younger turn out sometimes not to be. For some of us, and I think definitely for Steve, you learn to truly enjoy the moment. And I don't think this is about the fact that you're going to die, but I think it's about the fact that you feel less like wasting time in torment.
Martin Milnes:Steve's sense of humor remained sharp as ever, as longtime friend Ted Chapin discovered.
Ted Chapin:He was he had that mischievous side to him, which is part of what made him fun. The last thing I did with him was a lyrics and lyricist program at the 97th Street Y. And he wrote me an email that said, well, I'll try to come on Monday, but I've been asked to be an Andrew Lloyd Webber tribute at Radio City Musical, so I'm not sure that I can actually get there in time for the performance. And I thought to myself, I'll send a car. I'll do this. I'll do that. Then I thought, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Radio City Music Hall has 6,000 seats. I don't know of any Andrew Lloyd Webber tribute that's happening at Radio City Music Hall, and it's Andrew Lloyd Webber. He was completely pulling my leg.
Martin Milnes:And yet, time was catching up with Steve. His final musical, eventually titled Here We Are, continued developing slowly. Steve's struggle was observed by his half brother, Walter.
Walter E. Sondheim:I just could never understand his fascination with trying to put this show together based on two of Luis Buenel's films. It seemed like a cursed project. This sword that's hanging over his head, you know, you have to complete this, otherwise you're not gonna be happy if you don't. He would complain to me about the fact that creative juices seem to be slowing down. Was that just an excuse or is that just, you know, I've got this crutch I can use and say, oh, you know, I'm just getting old. Oh, come on. Your brain's faster than any person's I can think of. At one point maybe when I was in my late sixties, there's an option where in fact I could retire and he turned to me and said, you know what happened to our father? I said, what are you talking about? Remember when he retired, closed his business? He was dead in two years. And this is something he consciously thought about. And of course, from his standpoint, you know, he was gonna die with that pencil in his hand. Right? Maybe at the piano, but that really hit me.
Martin Milnes:Steed's creative battle was also witnessed by Lin Manuel Miranda.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:He was feeling down on Here We Are. He went through periods of being really effusive about it and periods where he'd say, I've done this before. I've done rich people and this upper middle class milieu before. Am I repeating myself? And he would wonder that aloud, to to folks, and everyone would hear the work would say, please keep writing.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:The last time I spent with him in person was actually, this New York Times piece that he asked me to write. And I'm not a journalist, I'm not a reporter, but because it was Steve, said yes. And I remember going to his house the day of the appointed interview, and he was, like, not feeling great that day. Like, he had kind of an upset stomach. He's like, we're gonna do the interview upstairs. I can't come down. I don't wanna be too far from the bathroom. I don't feel great.
Martin Milnes:In December 2019, at home in Roxbury, Connecticut, Steve suffered a fall. He canceled his trip to London to open the newly named Sondheim Theater. He also missed rehearsals for Broadway revivals of West Side Story and Company. Not long after, both shows opened in previews, but then suddenly, the world was in lockdown. From Roxbury, Steve's ninetieth birthday was celebrated in isolation with Jeff.
Martin Milnes:Post pandemic, PJ was among the select few visiting Steve at home.
Peter E. Jones:What started to show at the very end was he was becoming frail for the first time, and you could see it. There was a thinness to his face that he never had before. And that was surprise. The first time I noticed it took me aback, you know. It must have been because of COVID. There was this long period of time where we didn't actually see each other. That was a rude awakening because he he held out so long before the cracks really started to show, if you will. In certain ways, it was a little more gradual, but in other ways, it was a sharp downturn. What accompanied it was, of course, that lack of intimacy that we started having.
Martin Milnes:Because you'd now established a new life with your husband Randy, and Steve had Jeff?
Peter E. Jones:And we were too busy. He was too busy constantly lending his name to one thing or another, the allegro syndrome as he would call it, and then trying to write. And then I was too busy with taking care of things that needed to be done, so we had less and less time to have an intimate moment.
Martin Milnes:While Steve remained in Connecticut, his devoted Manhattan housekeeper, Celsa de Azanza, now saw him much less frequently. Thirty years previously, Celsa had arrived from Chile to work for Steve. But for some time now, Celsa had noticed Steve's frailties.
Celsa de Azanza:Well,like with everyone, the years pass. They often bring ailments and face changes. The faculties gradually diminish. And so it was with El Signor as well. The doctor's appointments increased as the years passed. Many medications and doctor's appointments that were sporadic before. I remember when he stopped driving. I think his reflexes were slowing. It also started to cost him a lot, going up and down the stairs to his 4th Floor bedroom. During the last months, the advancing years were more noticeable. The pandemic contributed to this. He went to his country house and only returned to Manhattan for his doctor's appointments and back to the country, only occasionally stopping by his house in Manhattan. A year passed without his physical presence in his city house. He felt orphaned during the pandemic.
Martin Milnes:Throughout lockdown, Steve had worried that he'd never see his work performed again. But the Broadway revival of Company, directed by Marianne Elliott, was due to reopen in November 2021. Assassins was to be revived off Broadway, and Lin Manuel was directing the movie Tick Tick Boom, a biopic of Steve's protege, the late Jonathan Larson. Stephen Sondheim was a character in the movie, played by Bradley Whitford. But for a pivotal scene, Steve himself recorded an answering machine message left for Jonathan Larson by Stephen Sondheim.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:The original screenplay had something along the lines of, I have a feeling you have a great future. He's like, I would never say that. So he just again, in classic Steve fashion, he wanted to make it more specific to himself and and our movie is the better for it. The other wonderful thing about making this movie, which is a love letter to Jonathan, was it's also a love letter to Steve, because Steve's our encourager in chief and has been for generations.
Martin Milnes:Steve's mentor, Oscar Hammerstein, carefully taught the importance of giving to others. Now that Steve was 91, Maria Friedman noticed him acknowledging loved ones. Maria was set to direct a New York revival of Merrily We Roll Along, and Steve was determined it should happen.
Maria Friedman:He was doing an interview for company, and you know how he never cross fertilized interviews. If it was for company and Marion Elliott, and that's what needed the publicity, he would talk about that, and he would just be like, that's the road. And in the middle of this interview, he said, oh, and by the way, Maria Freeman's Merrily We Roll Along is coming to Broadway. We haven't fixed anything. No dates, no nothing. So it's basically like saying, I got you. I've got you. If I say it's coming, it's coming. And that was unbelievable to me. Towards the end, I know he knew he was on the way out because he did those sorts of things just to let the people that he loved know he loved them. It's like lots of full stops that he sort of was tying up ends.
Martin Milnes:He did that with me, felt. Shortly before he died, we'd been discussing a bunch of old movies I'd recorded which he'd never seen, and he asked me to send him copies on DVD. But it was a big package of 17 films, so as a thank you, he sent me two really beautifully inscribed books. There was a pocket collection of his lyrics and James Lapine's new book just published about Sunday in the Park, And his signature in one of the books was really quite shaky. So I had this gut instinct that now was the time to say thank you, not just for the books, but for his friendship. And he sent a really lovely reply, but with hindsight, I feel that Steve gave me the chance to say thank you. And by sending me that gift, I like to think that was maybe him saying thank you as well.
Maria Friedman:Well, of course it was. Of course it was.
Martin Milnes:10/02/2021. Jonathan Tunick, Steve's legendary orchestrator and friend, for over fifty years, met with Steve for the final time.
Jonathan Tunick:The Sharon Playhouse, which is a little summer theater in Sharon, Connecticut, They decided they were going to do a show honoring me. I was the closest thing they could come to a celebrity in the town. They actually went out and hired a 25 piece orchestra. So I called up Steve. And I said, I know you never go to these things. I won't be offended but I feel it's my duty to at least inform you that it's taking place. And he said, oh of course I'll come. And I thought to myself, did I dial the right number here? But sure enough, he showed up with Jeff and he even sat in the middle of the house with me and Lee and had a very good time and he stayed and got sloshed with the actors afterwards at the reception. I said to him, I know you hate sentimentality. I know you don't wanna talk about it, but I have to tell you how grateful I am that you picked me to work with you all these years and what a privilege it's been to work with you all these years. I was satisfied because that hadn't been left unsaid. And here's Steve. Jonathan, we're lucky we met one another. Talk of an understatement.
Martin Milnes:Richard Maltby Junior, Steve's friend of six decades, was also present that day. Together, these faithful friends put the world to rights.
Richard Maltby Jr:It was the warmest conversation I ever had with Steve. He was unguarded and sort of simple. He was more open, I guess, maybe, and I thought that was really moving because he was seemed to be more willing to share his emotions. It was the sweetest moment I ever had with Steve.
Martin Milnes:On November 15, finally back on Broadway after lockdown, Marianne Elliott's revival of Company had its first preview. Prior to act one, Marianne came out on stage to address the audience, and Patti LuPone made an announcement.
Patti LuPone:Stephen, the the cast of company dedicate this performance to you.
Martin Milnes:Throughout the show, Marianne could tell that Steve was happy among those good and crazy people, his friends.
Marianne Elliott:I can hear his laughter now. I was upstairs, and he was downstairs in the store. And then during the show, I can remember hearing him laughter. He just laughed it. He was so, so positive about it. We had an amazing night that night with the cast in the stores drinking for hours. What were what were we thinking?
Martin Milnes:That same evening, in the theater next door, was Lin Manuel's premiere of Tick Tick Boom.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:I actually saw Steve walk by while I was getting in line to enter the theater, and I almost ran out, and I didn't, but he and Jeff were walking across to the company opening. That was actually the last time I saw Steve, but he didn't see me. I emailed him 11/19/2021. I wrote one of the great side effects of tick tick boom is that people volunteered to me their stories about your kindness and generosity and mentorship over the years. Hope your ears have been ringing in all the best ways with the release of the film, and thanks for the rewrite on the phone machine. It made all the difference. Ciempre, Ling Manuel, who is looking for something to do because the movie's out. And then he wrote me back that same afternoon at 07:47PM.
Stephen Sondheim:Thanks for the nice boost to my spirits, Lin. It's an aspect of my life I'm I'm proud of. I feel as if I've repaid, you know, partially at least, what I owe Oscar. You may know this, but it's worth telling you if not. Apparently, there's a website that talks about your movie to which a viewer asked, is Stephen Sondheim based on a real person? I leave it to you to give your opinion.
Martin Milnes:November 20. Marianne Elliott joined Steve at his home in Roxbury, Connecticut for an interview to publicize company.
Marianne Elliott:I saw Steve the weekend. I think it was a Saturday, and he was just lovely. I mean, he was just really sweet and kind and so positive with the interviewer and so positive with me and showed me around his house and again all the artifacts that he'd kept from all the shows. He seemed so well. He just seemed so well.
Peter E. Jones:The last time I saw him was so poignant. This was on a Saturday And I just went about my business doing the things I do, getting the CD shelved, alphabetized, and I went into his study, and he was listening to stuff on the CD player, and I was organizing one thing after another, and we were just talking casually. And that was the first time in a long time we'd had just a casual conversation while I was going about things. And it continued like that through the evening. He'd gotten a CD of something of his and he put it on, we were listening to it, making jokes, and having the kind of time we hadn't had in a long time where we would do that kind of thing. And it was in his study the way it used to be, you know. So it was just, it was a nice, without any self consciousness of it. We didn't stop and say, wow, that was interesting or anything like that. We just had this nice evening in which I was there to just be sure he was okay, but I got some jobs done and that was that.
Martin Milnes:Do you remember what the final things were that you said to each other?
Peter E. Jones:Might have been an I love you. Again, it was like a time where every now and then we'd have a little candid moment like that. It was never too flowery or anything, but probably something like that.
Martin Milnes:November 23. Jamie Bernstein and her sister Nina, who'd known Steve all their lives, saw the Off Broadway revival of Assassins.
Jamie Bernstein:It was such a fantastic performance. It was right in the middle of COVID, and everybody was cramming around Steve after the show was over to greet him and tell him how much they loved the show and all that stuff. And Nina and I just couldn't bear to do it. It was just too many people breathing all over him, and we we just thought, you know what? Let's not add to the pile. So we didn't greet him on that day. And instead, I went home and wrote him an email. And in typical fashion, Steve wrote me right back.
Stephen Sondheim:So glad you liked it. Thanks for telling me. I'm really proud of that show. And I think John's book rates right up there with Gypsy and any others of the best, if such exist. I'll try to figure out a night when I have to be in town for a doctor or a dentist, which is fairly frequent, and maybe we can organize an anagrams game or an escape the room or some such. Meanwhile, happy Thanksgiving to you and the impressively extended family. Love, the old geezer.
Martin Milnes:While he was in the city for Assassins, Steve made one last visit to his Manhattan home of sixty years, 246 East 49th Street. The townhouse was still being faithfully cared for by his longtime Chilean housekeeper, Celsa.
Celsa de Azanza:I saw him when he came to the Manhattan house, 11/23/2021. He looked very unwell. I even discussed it with Steve Clar and Peter Jones. When he left to go back to Connecticut, he said goodbye, as always, very politely. Now after what happened, I I think maybe he came to the city to say goodbye. He came to say goodbye to his home, which sheltered him for so many years.
Martin Milnes:November 25th Thanksgiving. Steve and Jeff attended a dinner party at the Connecticut home of actress Marsha Mason. It was a gathering of close friends who lived locally, but Mia Farrow had declined the invitation, arranging instead to meet Steve the next day with her son, Ronan.
Jamie Bernstein:I should have gone to that Thanksgiving party and didn't. I didn't wanna get COVID, so I didn't go to Marsha's party. We'd had the pandemic, so we couldn't really hang out at all during that time. We'd never had that much time without hanging out, but we were to come over. Ronan and I were coming.
Mia Farrow:He said, come at eleven. I said, okay. And then he said, give me a call first in case, you know, maybe it'll be 11:30. Said, okay.
Ronan Farrow:Mom was thinking of going. She wound up staying in with us partly because Steve had said, like, oh, we'll all just we'll hang out next day. And it had just been such a long time coming to see him again, and I had missed him so much. And so much had happened in my life that I wanted to update him on. I made a plan with him to go see him, and, you know, I took for granted that I'd be able to catch up with him.
Martin Milnes:But Steve's longtime friends, Tim Donahue and Tom Fitzsimmons, did attend the Thanksgiving dinner. Tom had known Steve nearly fifty years.
Tom Fitzsimmons:Now he was in really good shape. It was encouraging. Know? Yeah. Hey. He's turned a corner. He told stories about his mother, you know, and all sorts of showbiz stuff. And Jeff kept going over and say, do wanna go home? And Steve said, no. No. I'm fine. I'm fine. I can stay a little longer. Yeah. He was in great shape. Usually, I don't think he stayed, you know, more than, like, a couple hours or something, but this went on until eleven ish or something.
Martin Milnes:Tim, your final encounter with Steve was somewhat typical.
Tim Donoghue:Steve and I sometimes had a a contentious relationship, and I never really knew why. But that night, I remember thinking, of course, this would happen. I had just been to see
Tom Fitzsimmons:Oh, yes.
Tim Donoghue:James Lapine's show. The thing Steve didn't like. Flying Over Sunset. Yeah. And Steve said, how was it? I said, well, it was good. Steve said, what do you mean good? Because I think he was being very defensive for James. And of course, what I wanted to say is, well, it would have been great had you written the music. But I couldn't say that because I didn't want to offend him because he had turned it down and I think he regretted turning it down. Maybe not. I don't know. But so he said, yeah. Well, Tim, you never did like my work anyway. We walked him to his car. We walked him to his car. And so Yeah. He got in the car and I said, Steve, we'll see you soon. He said, yeah. Maybe. Oh, I know. I know. So that was my last memory of him.
Peter E. Jones:Well, as you say, your relationship is always contentious. It was his way of being affectionate with you. That's what it sounds like to me. And he was himself right to the end.
Martin Milnes:Steve and Jeff then arrived home in Roxbury. Soon after, whilst preparing to retire for the night, Steve died peacefully during the early hours of 11/26/2021.
Newscaster #1:The New York Times. Stephen Sondheim, titan of the American musical, is dead at 91. He was theater's most revered and influential composer lyricist of the last half of the twentieth century. The driving force behind
Peter E. Jones:I heard the news from Steve's agent, Rick Pappas, who called me around six in the morning. But what bothered me immediately at that time was I then looked on my phone and saw that Jeff had called early in the morning like 02:30 or three and the irony was I had gotten up right around that time to go to the bathroom, would have walked right past the phone and I didn't see it or hear it. Of all the times, all the times I've gotten up to pee in the middle of the night and I missed this call. That at the moment, at the very beginning was what really upset me.
Martin Milnes:Among the first to hear were Ronan, Mia, and Tom.
Tom Fitzsimmons:I called the number, and of course, it was an answering machine. And I said, Jeff, Jeff, we just learned. Call us if you need us or whatever, whatever. And and then I couldn't stand it, so I said to Timmy, we're going over. So we just went over, and the house already had La Pine and Weidman.
Mia Farrow:So I called eleven, no answer. I called at 11:15, no answer. I thought, this isn't like Steve. And then James called me. Is everything okay? And James said, no. I just couldn't believe it, you know. There was something about Steve that was, I felt in my mind, indestructible.
Ronan Farrow:The grief of that moment was the narrow miss of already having had this pent up desire to to see him again, and then being so close to that, and then realizing I would never get that chance, I guess I'm still kind of reeling from that.
Tom Fitzsimmons:I went into the room where the piano was, and I'll it's Steve's room. You know, everything everything, posters and everything was Steve, Steve, Steve. And I just collapsed. I was a wreck. I never cried for my father like that, not a bit. And it wouldn't stop, it wouldn't stop.
Peter E. Jones:You're just sitting there trying to fathom it, and then I put together that I saw him on Saturday, and you know, it was just a whole lot of this. I thought, oh my goodness, It was as if we knew, you know. I mean, we all like to look back and say things like that, but it really, was how how timely that could have been, given the fact that we had such terrible timing through our relationship, know, and and all those things that happened, that we could have a special moment like that at the end was just wonderful and poignant.
Martin Milnes:Word then reached Lin Manuel and Marianne.
Marianne Elliott:I got a phone call from Rick Papas. I was with a friend, and he said, call me when you're on your own. And I thought, oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Steve hates the rain because we've put some rain in the show. He hates the rain. He's gonna me cut the rain. Oh, no. Oh, no. I don't wanna cut the rain. Oh, no. And then I was like, oh, god. Oh, god. This is what the call is. And I said goodbye to my friend. I went round the block. And on the street, I rang. Shit. And he told me. And I toldI just couldn't believe it. I was I was I couldn't tell anyone because I was sworn to secrecy.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:I was in the Dominican Republic with my family, and we were getting ready to go to dinner. I'll always be grateful to James Lapine because he called me about a half hour before it went public. And he called me and said, hey, Lin, kiddo, I'm I'm thinking about you. I I want you to know that that Steve died, and I wanted to tell you before, it went wide. And I just kind of, you know, I just emailed with him, like, two days, three days prior. So I was really caught flat.
Marianne Elliott:They made the decision to make the press announcement at the same time as the cast were gonna be told after their matinees. Because of course everyone was terrified or I was terrified that the actors during the show would be looking on social media and see it. And it of course, then it would be really difficult to go back on stage. So at the end of the matinee, we said to the cast, just wait. Wait at this waiting wings. So I think they were all thinking, what on earth is gonna happen? And then once the audience had left the theatre and the iron was in, we brought everybody onto the stage and I told them then. It was huge. I mean, one actor collapsed onto the floor. I
Lin-Manuel Miranda:got so many texts from people all over the world, like, I'm here devastated, crying, and I never even met him. Can't imagine how you must be feeling. There was a real outpouring of of collective grief and shock.
Peter E. Jones:I never imagined though that it would be some kind of drawn out death or anything. I always thought it would be something rather abrupt, but I always imagined it a little more melodramatic, like another heart attack in the middle of him being the hors d'oeuvre at a society function or something. Something more like that, but not the way it actually happened.
Martin Milnes:I was stunned because PJ and I had only spoken the day before and Steve had seemed fine, but the greatest impact was felt by Steve's half brother, Walter.
Walter E. Sondheim:It was a total shock. The way I found out was I was listening to NPR, and there was this bullet on the radio.
Newscaster #2:Stephen Sondheim, the Pulitzer Prize and Tony award winning Broadway songwriter, has died at age 91. His death, first reported by the New York Times, occurred early this morning. Sondheim's lawyer says he died at his home in Roxbury, Connecticut.
Walter E. Sondheim:They told me about this gathering of stage performers at Times Square. And I, you know, I did get this to watch that and I just, you know, totally broke down. It was such a moving tribute. Couldn't have been more perfect.
Martin Milnes:In Steve's honor, the city of New York closed Times Square, as Lin Manuel and the Broadway community paid an unforgettable tribute.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:It it felt very healing and wonderful and and moving. We were all there for the exact same reason, and and it was to sing and it was to cry and it was to mourn. It was just like you've never heard Times Square so quiet.
Martin Milnes:In London's West End, the lights of Theatreland dimmed in Steve's honor. On Shaftesbury Avenue, a crowd gathered outside the Sondheim Theatre, where I met Steve's protege from his 1990 Oxford master class, Ed Hardy.
Ed Hardy:Steve was a surrogate parent. When he died, it was one of the most important moments of my life. I didn't know what to do. What what you know, you can call people, but what do you do? Then I heard that the lights were dimming, and so I grabbed a bottle of champagne and some plastic cups and just set off into the West End, not knowing quite what was going to ensue or who was gonna be there. They were playing his songs outside the theater, and I think it was just before the lights dimmed. On behalf of everyone in The UK, on behalf of everyone in Theatreland, I'd like you all to raise your glasses to celebrate the wonderful, magical, and legendary life of Stephen Sondheim. And I just thought, well, we're all here. Someone's got to say something. You know, you can't just stand there all very English and not not say anything. I passed around to whoever was at the front and we applauded and it was lovely. And then you came up to me and that's how we met. It was very serendipitous. And I was so pleased that we came together on that evening because we had to do something.
Martin Milnes:From the nineteen fifties even through to the nineties, Steve's work had often been ignored, misunderstood, and even ridiculed. But now, the world at large had finally acknowledged the genius of Stephen Sondheim. For Walter, this meant everything.
Walter E. Sondheim:I couldn't have been more proud of the response. I wanted to say it was so late in coming that I was I was shocked, but then the accolades, etcetera, just kept pouring in. Same thought kept going through my head. Why is this now as opposed to then? Everything was in place for so long and now they're finally coming around. People don't wish death on anybody, but when it does happen it's pretty amazing what the reactions are. I couldn't have been one hand happier for him in perpetuity, but jeez. And then, of course, the revival started hitting.
Martin Milnes:In quick succession, Company, Into the Woods, and Sweeney Todd lit up Broadway. Then Maria Friedman's Merrily We Roll Along smashed box office records. But for Maria, it was bittersweet without steam.
Maria Friedman:We opened with all the overture and the opening night of Merrily, and he wasn't there. I literally, I promise you, I stood in the back of the auditorium, and he was there. I conjured him up, I brought him into the room with me and he was standing right next to me because I made him I made him be there with me and I've kept doing that because he belongs to everyone. I can conjure him up and bring him into my space whenever I want now. As of course when I start to sing his stuff, I start to work on anything, he's in the room, he's in the room, he's in every molecule, he's in every corner, he's in the room. So having him in my life I still have him, I still have him, the grief is profound, I don't let myself go there very often. It's a profound loss, It's profound. And it feels like somebody stopped shining a light on me. He believed in me. We all need that. Right? And I lost my parents and I had him. Someone's on your side. He knew what that meant. He knew what that meant.
Martin Milnes:Steve's loss is equally felt by Ronan and Mia.
Mia Farrow:It means everything to have someone you can count on. I miss Steve every day. I really miss him. And I loved him very, very much. I loved him as a true friend. And so the loss is a grievous loss. A friendship of over fifty years that was as kind as it was and I hope we were there for each other. I know he was there for me And I, of course, I'm a human who misses that human.
Ronan Farrow:Those of us who were lucky enough to have him in our lives somehow found it impossible to believe he'd ever be gone. And I I suppose that's down to his vitality in so many different ways. He took up space in a glorious, welcome way that feels to this day irreplaceable and before he was gone, seemed inconceivable to to be without. A week doesn't go by when I don't miss Steve and I don't wish that I could grab a few more of those precious moments with him. A week doesn't go by when I don't encounter something in my life where I wish I could call him and get his advice because there was no one with a more interesting intellect and set of sensibilities that fed into his good judgment. And I I just feel a great sense of loss all the time about him and gratitude that I had him in my life.
Martin Milnes:Steve referred to his household staff as the family. Housekeeper Celsa de Azanza treasured every moment.
Celsa de Azanza:In my life, I've worked in three places. In Chile, at an insurance company for eleven years. In Venezuela, managing the company for twelve years. And with El Senor for over thirty years. Oh, my other bosses couldn't come close to him. His gratitude, their good, kindness, stubbornness, generosity with a capital g. Oh, my other bosses couldn't compare. He had a brilliant quick mind. He was a genius in every sense of the word. It's true. It would be pretentious of me to say that he considered me his friend, but if that were the case, I would consider myself the happiest woman in the world. I will always remember him and carry him in my heart with warmth and gratitude until my death. I never forgot what he said to me once when I thanked him for a splendid gift, one of the many over the years. Celsa, he told me. In life, there are three things that are most important, time, health, and love. Wise words from a great genius. May he rest in peace.
Martin Milnes:A unique bond is now shared forever by Steve's collaborators, John Wideman and James Lapine.
James Lapine:We lost a big part of our lives.
John Weidman:I I really did not want to answer the phone and have to talk to anybody about Steve. Yeah. You know? To give a quote, know, I just didn't want any part of that. And, yeah, it was a long difficult period of processing what had happened. I mean, god knows it was not unexpected. But still, it it was shocking when it happened. And and, yeah, I think, you know, my affection for him, I think, was never more apparent to me than it was the day he died.
James Lapine:I think we're still processing it. I mean, when you had that kind of I don't think people who don't do what we do understand what it's like to be in a room with somebody making something, you know, and more than once. You know, John and I both worked a lot with him, it's it's like a brother, you know, it's it's a it's a marriage.
John Weidman:It is.
Martin Milnes:But now, as time passes, Steve's heritage remains steadfast, as Lin Manuel confirms.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:I constantly sort of toggle back and forth with which will be the greater legacy. His encouragement of countless artists, of which I was lucky enough to be one, of literally thousands, or the master works that he left us. And it's almost impossible to say. 500 from now, people are gonna doubt that Stephen Sondheim really wrote all this. With his incredible collaborators, but, like, how could one person have done so much in his time, in the same way that we doubt Shakespeare's well, Shakespeare didn't write all of them. To know that he did and to know how deeply he cared about the art form because he had a good mentor, because Oscar Hammerstein was a father figure to him at a time when he really needed one.
Martin Milnes:And this legacy was witnessed firsthand for sixty years by Steve's lifelong friends and contemporaries, Maltby and Shire.
Richard Maltby Jr:We were there. Imagine being in Russia while Chekhov was writing his plays. Imagine being in Elizabethan England when these shows were being turned out once every six months. Imagine being in, you know, in the French court and having Moliere just be the person who's writing plays. We were there. We were there for the entire trajectory of that career. We were there with the opening nights. We were there watching life change, watching I mean, Steve started out writing things that were considered he always called them caviar for the general obscure, difficult to understand. Now they're the standard vocabulary. Everybody can understand them. Everybody can understand these shows. He had trained an entire audience to hear shows differently and to think about things differently. And we were there for the whole arc of it, from the beginning to the end. How lucky we were.
David Shire:I couldn't add to that, but I feel the same way. We miss him.
Martin Milnes:And so does John Kander, Steve's friend of seven decades.
John Kander:I think we choose our friends. We think we choose our friends often for what we think of as very complicated reasons. I think when you look back on the people that you wanna spend time with and you look forward to being with them or calling them or having lunch with them or going for a walk with them, you wanna be with those people. You you're really with those people because somehow their presence in your life makes you feel good. Steve made me feel good when he would come and visit me up here in the country and we go for a walk in the woods. I feel good with this person. You know it and when you embrace a friend you know if the feeling is real and I want to believe anyway that he knew that.
Martin Milnes:In Steve's memory, Dame Judi Dench has planted a cherry tree in her garden.
Dame Judi Dench:I plant trees to my friends who die and I am mad about trees. So Stephen is there and he's opposite Hal. So that's very nice to have the two of them there. And of course every time you walk through you tell somebody about it then it brings it back to you. Brings back the memory of them. I like having them about. I wish I'd known him lots more, you know. I wish I'd had much longer to know him. All the things I do know, all the stuff he has written, it's just it's like an arrow, it goes straight to my heart. I'm with the world when I say it, but I I think genius is a proper, proper word for Dashti. Oh, what a waste is not around writing, isn't it? What a waste.
Martin Milnes:PJ, it's clear how Steve has impacted countless lives, from family and friends to total strangers. Your relationship, however, remained unique. As the first person with whom Steve ever fell in love, you shared his life in a very particular way and at a very particular time. Your romantic relationship and then your close friendship dominated thirty years of your own life. How did Steve's loss impact you in the immediate instance, and how do you feel about it now?
Peter E. Jones:It had to sink in. But how do I feel about it now? If you want to ask me that, I can answer. I very much miss him. It's it's I miss him a lot. And I miss him not always in necessarily sentimental ways. Some of it is that, certainly at first, it was the feeling, I think any of us could say this is certainly all of us who were in his orbit, you're untethered now. You're not in orbit anymore. You're floating. That's the feeling. That was the feeling, I think, certainly the house people felt, the family, as we called ourselves. But to this day, there are times I feel that, because I'd gotten so used to it. So, there are times where, all of a sudden, I think the call's coming and I should have the phone, and then I remember, or the email will be there in the morning. Now, it happens very rarely now, but it was happening a lot at first, you know. In the first couple of years, it was hard to shake those things, and so then, upon reflection, you realized you were relying on that as structure in your life that you no longer have, and now you have to call the shots. It's almost like he gave a gift that way. Now it's your turn.
Martin Milnes:Stop worrying where you're going. Move on. Steve's words, first sung by a Broadway legend and Steve's treasured friend. Introducing our final guest, Bernadette Peters.
Bernadette Peters:I didn't realize how much I was gonna miss him. Mhmm. And I dreamt about him the other night, forgetting I even had this interview. And I miss that I can't call him up. And because I called him up after I saw Bruce Springsteen. I said, oh, Steve, you know, I thought of you. When I saw Bruce, I think you really would like him and like this. Oh, I saw him, he said. And he's oh, he was a great presence on stage. He really liked him. And then the other day, was reading looking at Bob Dylan talking about his songs. Oh, I didn't I never asked Steve how he liked Bob Dylan. Did you know how he liked Bob Dylan? If he liked him?
Peter E. Jones:He had all of his early records. And I think he lived in Turtle Bay at
Bernadette Peters:He did? Bob Dylan. Yeah.
Peter E. Jones:And down the street.
Martin Milnes:It was Steve's house, then Katharine Hepburn's, then Bob Dylan's.
Bernadette Peters:Wow. So I never asked Steve how he liked Bob, but Steve was so insightful about everything, really. Who's a phony? Who's real? Who can write what art and what's you know? Didn't he have a nose for just
Peter E. Jones:Yeah, he discerned. Discerned. Yeah. To an endless degree. Yeah. He couldn't he couldn't not really.
Bernadette Peters:That woman came on, I didn't believe her for a she was that character. That she could be that character. Not to be mean, he just, you know, or he'll go, you know. He'll gush over someone else that's, you know, truly there.
Martin Milnes:What does it mean to you to have had Steve in your life?
Bernadette Peters:I was thinking of that today in a way. He wrote the music and the lyrics, and he gave them to me so I could live in them. Steve, for a long time, didn't realize how well his songs, I don't think, lived outside of the shows. Because when we did the ninetieth birthday on virtually, he was so surprised how good the songs were outside the show. I said, well, you know, I've been telling him that for years. And I always say that he gave me something to sing about because I never really just like singing a nice melody for no reason, you know, to hear the sound of my voice. I really like having something
Peter E. Jones:To play.
Bernadette Peters:To sing about that made sense, that was interesting for me to let the audience know about. It was uplifting to me. I want them to be able to sit. It was dramatic to me. I needed Steve. To have him as a friend is just he was just a very wise, caring person. And so and smart. And I probably wouldn't have had the career I have. I don't think it wasn't for him. You know, if you wanna look at it from that end, but that end isn't as important to me as the emotions that he gave me to live in. That's more important.
Martin Milnes:Beautiful. Well, Bernadette, it's been a joy to speak
Bernadette Peters:Wanna hear about my dream?
Martin Milnes:Bernadette had a dream. A dream about steam. And to PJ's and my delight, she shared it with us.
Bernadette Peters:I woke up and I went, oh, I have to remember this. He was with me in a new apartment that I had just moved into. My therapist said a new apartment, that's a good sign rather than going back to your used to go back to my old house that I grew up in all the time. We were looking for a song that he had written when he was really young maybe there is one. We found the music but we couldn't find the lyrics. And he had a helper that was a woman that was his assistant. But he was at my place and he was towards the end of his life. He was frail. And we were looking through sheet music and and the song would be there but the lyrics wouldn't be there. And then it had something to do with a movie. So we were watching a movie on the computer and he said, I get in the light? And then he had to lay down. So I must have been observing my dream while I was sleeping in my dream. Yeah. And I didn't say it out loud, I realized, oh, so you're always there for me even though you're gone.
Martin Milnes:Uh-huh. Oh, that's beautiful.
Bernadette Peters:Thank you for you're always there. Thank you. And then he was really tired and he was gonna go home. I said, Well, I think I have a guest room. I wanna see if it's available. So and it wasn't done up yet. So, he had to go home. But, that's basically what he had this very pretty shirt on. It was white mud, let's say. White on white, but it was was these sunflowers. White on white, but it was the circle and the petal petal, but all on his shirt.
Peter E. Jones:There's a lot in this dream. There's a lot. Yeah. In this dream. Yeah. I mean a lot of what one could deem significant Yeah. I think. Yeah. And mostly for you because you would know what certain symbols mean or
Bernadette Peters:It's sunflowers which is happy, but also that he's, you know, still available to me. And his music is, Yeah. You when I was doing the show in London, one morning I woke up singing, Ones I hated this city. I had to dream about him there too. I don't remember that dream.
Peter E. Jones:We've said that those kinds of things are often him knocking on the door, know, little things like that that happen. I've got some of the stuff that was happening.
Bernadette Peters:What did you have happen?
Martin Milnes:Well, this was quite recent. I dreamed that I walked into my room, and Steve was sitting there with his back to me. Then he turned around in his chair, and beaming, he said, I'm the man who came to dinner. And I love this because, as you know, in the movie and play, The Man Who Came to Dinner, the main character is this famous intellectual in his chair who unexpectedly moves in, changes people's lives, and never leaves. So I like to think that's Steve saying to me that he's moved into my life, which he has. And I like to think this is Steve too, but sometimes in dreams, I've seen them in black and white with references to his favorite movie stars, people like Jean Arthur and Margaret Sullavan.
Bernadette Peters:Ah, the best.
Lin-Manuel Miranda:Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Bernadette Peters:And you did you dream about him? Yeah.
Peter E. Jones:Yeah. I had an interesting dream. Two significant things happened. The first one was not long after he died, maybe maybe six months to a year. I walked into a theater in the back of the house, except it wasn't the orchestra, it was way up in the stalls.
Peter E. Jones:So instead of it just being regular theater seats, there was a, like, a standing room area, and Steve was on a barstool sitting, watching. And I came over and he did this, and I sat in his lap. And we watched whatever it was. Everything was okay. There was just some kind of
Bernadette Peters:Aw.
Peter E. Jones:I'm about to fall apart just talking about it now. I didn't You know, at the time, I was mystified by it, what the symbolism was, but it was just a
Bernadette Peters:Well, has a comforting presence, it seems.
Peter E. Jones:Yes, but I'm sitting on his lap.
Bernadette Peters:Well, I know.
Peter E. Jones:Mean It wasn't sexual though.
Bernadette Peters:No. Was just It's like, I don't wanna say it, like a father and a son. Well, that's what were, comforting.
Peter E. Jones:It was, as if to say everything we went through, we're okay.
Bernadette Peters:We're okay. And
Peter E. Jones:so then fast forward to June, I was at a musician's retreat with a room full of composers, the first time I'd ever done anything like that. And one morning I was in a practice room working out some You're writing something. Yeah, pure music. I haven't done that since I was a teenager, and I went to music camp, you know, just to work in music. And out of nowhere, I met the piano, I got the worst pang of missing him because I used to talk to him about those things.
Peter E. Jones:He was the one I talked to about real music and what it meant, and we could talk about harmony, about Yeah. Missed him so much.
Bernadette Peters:Yeah. Right there.
Martin Milnes:I remember after he died in Britain, there's a particular channel for really obscure old British movies. And it took me several months to think. This one's on He'll Want This because I used to put them on DVD for him and he's not there and I missed that. I used to get emails coming in in sort of Britain about 01:00 in the morning and sometimes I used to look forward to turning on my phone.
Bernadette Peters:To see if it was That's so wonderful. You know we did this show in London, Old Friends, and it's all his music. And by the end of the show, people from all walks of life, everybody goes to the theater in Britain, right, were up standing up crying, crying, applauding, crying, people with no teeth, people that were elegant, People appreciate the depth and breadth of what he wrote because every show is different because he approached each show like an actor. Each show had its own personality. I had to give him an award at the Stella Adler studio, and it was the Marlon Brando Award. I think this is very funny because I always thought Steve approached each show like an actor. He could've been a great actor, I suppose, but he translated it into notes and music and ideas, great ideas, thoughts, and so. But that's the only reason I could go do Sondheim's dance is because I I did Sunday in the Park, and it was so detailed. How do you go do a show where you're the whole first action? It has to be detailed. So, that's the only way. It was like doing Shakespeare and then coming in makes everything else easier You to know? And he told me he's still available to me.
Peter E. Jones:Yes. When you get ready for your next house, he'll be
Martin Milnes:He'll be there in white. How lucky were all of us to have him .
Bernadette Peters:How lucky. How lucky. He'll be knocking on your doors.
Peter E. Jones:He will. He will.
Bernadette Peters:Keep knocking on mine and I'll let you say, you know. Is there a song that I'm that I'm trying to find?
Peter E. Jones:With no lyrics?
Bernadette Peters:The lyrics are separate.
Dame Julie Andrews:Not a day goes by. Not a single day. He's not gone. I mean, somebody as huge and wonderful as that doesn't just disappear off the face of the earth. He'll always be with us. I feel. Love you, Steve.
Martin Milnes:Thank you, Dame Julie Andrews. In March 2024, when PJ and I decided to produce this podcast, we agreed that it would remain, in every way, a labor of love. We anticipated that it would take twelve months to complete the interviews and create a chat show series of eight forty minute episodes. But thanks to the unprecedented testimony offered by Steve's friends and the richly varied memories revealed, Loving You, The Untold Sondheim gradually became a 12 part, twelve hour documentary series two years in the making.
Martin Milnes:Making, featuring 50 guests, 42 actors, 10 singers, six pianists, and the support of many others on both sides of the Atlantic. Every guest and artiste offered their time and talent purely in tribute to Steve. My scripts for each episode were brought to life by the tireless editing and production skills of Peter E. Jones, who also composed the podcast's original score. For PJ and me, creating Loving You has proved an experience far deeper, more meaningful, and more personal than we could have ever anticipated. And that is testament not just to Steve himself, but moreover, to everyone's love for Steve.
Martin Milnes:In May 2026, just after the release of episode 10, PJ and I met in New York City to reflect on what we'd experienced. Why do you
Peter E. Jones:think that it did take two years as opposed to one? What are some of the reasons for that?
Martin Milnes:The love everyone has for Steve, we didn't anticipate that the interviews we would get would turn out anything like how they have. Everybody, as we said before, they were just so happy to speak to us. And I like to think that Steve would would approve of what we've done, and I think he'd I think he'd be touched.
Peter E. Jones:I think he would be very happy about it because like I'd heard him say another time in in our past where he witnessed the more adult PJ in action, he felt very proud and I think he would feel very proud of this. In fact that he put the two of us together, it was his He fault, you would love that. He would love that something wonderful came of that. People really don't. They don't understand how I'm gonna use the word sentimental he was, but I should say full of sentiment he was and how these little things of people standing on their own and creating something wonderful, whatever it may be, meant so much to him.
Peter E. Jones:He sort of wore it on his sleeve by the time he got to a certain age. He'd cry at everything, you know. But that's again a part of the image that doesn't fit the brooding icon so people leave that out. But it a big part of who he is. I will say that I think he would have loved this but of course it probably wouldn't have happened when he was alive to appreciate it.
Peter E. Jones:So there's the rub. Something
Martin Milnes:I found is that everybody without exception, they all said thank you so much for asking me. And that's the Julie Andrews of this world, John Kanders, the Judi Denches, they have all said thank you for including me. And Steve would always say that as well. Mhmm. Certainly, in all the dealings I had with Steve, he would always say thank you.
Martin Milnes:I spoke briefly in episode one about my friend Peggy Cummins, the nineteen forties film star of Gun Crazy, a movie which I love and Steve thought was overrated. But when Peggy would do talks about Gun Crazy towards the very end of her life, she would make a point of saying, you can never say thank you enough. And she said, well, with Gun Crazy, you know, it's it's not just me, it's it's the cast, it's the cameraman, it's the director, it's it's everybody. You can never say thank you enough. And it just perfectly captures Steve as well.
Martin Milnes:These people are the real deal. If they can say thank you, there's no excuse for anybody else. Mhmm.
Peter E. Jones:And to your remark about Peggy saying, it's not just me, it's the cameraman. It's so everyone involved in this. The amazing group of talent we had doing the dramatic reenactments. Everyone wanted to participate including some very busy people like Alistair McGowan. How terrific is he as Steve?
Peter E. Jones:Terrific he is as Steve.
Martin Milnes:So a big thank you from both of us to everyone who has brought this series about.
Peter E. Jones:And we can't thank you enough. Yes. Speaking of these thank yous, Martin, there are, for example, your parents, your niece
Martin Milnes:Yes. Tess.
Peter E. Jones:Wonderful little cameos they gave to us that are going to be special forever to have those little moments. Yeah. Thank you, Milneses.
Martin Milnes:As we've said, this has been a two year labor of love and I would not have been able to have got through the last two years of this project without the incredible support of my family. My dad Alan, my mum Pauline, and I add to that my darling niece Tess, who is 11 and through this podcast has become a great big Sondheim Sondheim fan, which I love. And we've done puppet shows of Into the Woods together, which have been glorious.
Martin's Dad:Alright, Tess. Are you ready to do Into the Woods?
Tess:Yes, Grandad.
Martin's Dad:Once upon a time.
Tess:Into the woods and through the trees to where I am expected ma'am, into the woods to grandmother's house.
Martin Milnes:I have been exceptionally lucky with family support my entire life and career and for that I thank them all. Thank you so much.
Peter E. Jones:And on my side with involuntarily, there are little Easter eggs throughout, like my father playing the guitar in episode 10 and my brother playing the trumpet along with him. But I also want to let everyone know I wouldn't have been able to make this podcast without the support of my husband, Randy, who helped me technically if I needed it, who patiently sat watching television while I was editing away, made dinner when I said I'm gonna make dinner in twenty minutes and I was still editing, and he would just go and make dinner. I can't tell you the number of ways, My dear sweet man of twenty three years now essentially supported Martin and I through this podcast. And so Randy, we love you.
Martin Milnes:We do. And we thank you. Throughout this two year process of making the series, I've learned a lot about my relationship with Steve, and I've come to value even more, which I didn't think possible. I've come to value even more everything which he gave me. This process,
Peter E. Jones:this whole journey if you will, has led me to understand so many things in post unfortunately, you know, which is our nature as humans to gather much when it's a little too late. I think I said in, perhaps even the first episode, looking back, things can be rather golden. But the golden haze of it is based on truth. The truth that perhaps one couldn't see at the time it was happening. And the care with which Steve approached his and my relationship, the gentleness of it.
Peter E. Jones:I probably saw it at the time but didn't perceive it the way I understand it now. The way I see that he was a whole package to me and had I been able to appreciate it on a larger level. He was father figure, the teacher, the mentor, and the lover all in one package. And this understanding of mine was gained not only from getting older and seeing things but through the experiences of talking to others, particularly hearing stories I did not know about from Maria and Mia about their children and the stories of the Oxford class. They were very heartening to me.
Martin Milnes:One thing I've noticed with you, if I may say so, is the change in you over the two year period which has been extraordinary and, of course, for the better.
Peter E. Jones:I haven't had time to shave, Martin. I am sorry.
Martin Milnes:No, darling. No. What what I mean is that before we embarked on this podcast, there had been many things which you have not wanted to talk about before or been ready to talk about before. And I remember that during the first trip when I came over to New York for these interviews, there was a point when sort of reality hit as it were as we started getting these very deep, very personal interviews. There have been things which I have seen you processing and discovering, and you have confronted things from the past or things which you hadn't wanted to confront before.
Martin Milnes:You've embraced your vulnerability and the change is remarkable. I remember when Mia said that she would be happy to do an interview, you said, oh no, no, you just go and talk to Mia. And I said to you, well, she knows that you're a huge part of this, and if she didn't want to do it, could quite easily have said. But then there was a six month gap before we could chat to her because she was tied up with her Broadway play with Patti. And in the meantime, you'd been doing so much work on yourself and all the therapy that you've had.
Martin Milnes:And then it came to her. Said, Mia says, can we go around and see her on such and such a date? You said, yeah, I'll go and see Mia. And that's when I knew, god, this has been good. This has been good for you.
Martin Milnes:And it was wonderful to see you and Mia, and indeed your reunion with Maria, neither of whom you'd spoken with in detail for many years. And to see those conversations take place and the things they were able to tell you, which I could tell meant something, that was that was extraordinary. That's one of my favorite parts of the process.
Peter E. Jones:Now I'm kavelling.
Martin Milnes:And for anybody listening to this, take it from me from seeing what PJ has been through. There is strength in vulnerability and you are worth it to embrace that vulnerability and confront anything. It is worth it. Please believe me. Wherever you are in the world now, whoever's listening to this, I've seen it with PJ. Know that you are loved and know that you are worth it and know that it is worth confronting anything from the past which is an issue because I've seen how PJ has blossomed. I truly have and everything that's now going to be in your future as a result of this.
Peter E. Jones:Well, timing is everything. And in the way that timing seemed to thwart Steve and myself in one way or another, timing seems to be blossoming things this time. And a lot of it, of course, Martin, is you and what your experience in life has been, which teaches me a great deal. I've learned to be proud of the self I am to the degree I I can at any given time from a true individual who knows what it's like to be individual. You're a beacon to me, a shining example. I've learned so much just by knowing you You're and working with you and loving you.
Martin Milnes:It's entirely mutual. Creating this with you has been the professional and personal honor of my life, and I admit that I love you very much.
Peter E. Jones:Remember your email where Steve said, you're making my life a joy and ruining my career. Could anything better than won't you always hold that in Yeah. Your And That's what you meant to him. I've said it 65 times. Yeah. But, you brought him a joy he really needed at the right time. And, he told you it right there.
Martin Milnes:I loved him so much back.
Peter E. Jones:I have a segue. I don't know.
Martin Milnes:Segue away, please, because I'm too emotional to think about anything.
Peter E. Jones:Something I've learned through this, through our two years, I've come to truly appreciate what Steve and Jeff had together. And I want Jeff to know that I appreciate their relationship and I applaud it. I cared about it when it was and I care about it now. And I would like Jeff to know that he was able to hold Steve in a way that I was not. And that's a big deal.
Peter E. Jones:And I hope Jeff knows that that was true. I I feel this is very clumsy, but I would like Jeff to know that he was important to Steve and and was able to embrace a life with Steve for fifteen more years. Mhmm. And that's a big deal, and I love you for that Jeff.
Martin Milnes:What has this entire process meant to you over the last two years and has it been what you expected?
Peter E. Jones:Oh, no. It hasn't been what I expected. Nothing ever is. I knew it would be a lot of work, but in the throes of it, it can test your weaker moments. It has been what I expected only in the sense that I knew there was something special in the project, that it would stir the special feelings of others, and that it would be worthwhile to do it with you which was why again I had said I would talk.
Peter E. Jones:I knew you were the one. So that was all there. Knew that. But the rest, there have been things that I didn't know. Obviously, some of the stories that we learned, some of the to the degree in which people were interested, to the degree in which he was so important to them.
Peter E. Jones:That was new to me. Then I learned.
Martin Milnes:And we've got things to look forward to because we have our next collaboration lined up. I am so proud to be producing the workshop of the new musical by Peter and his fabulous collaborator, Ben Cohen. Peter e Jones, the composer lyricist, is back.
Peter E. Jones:Oh, had I left 14th Street?
Martin Milnes:How does it feel to go back to composing and what has been the catalyst for you to do this?
Peter E. Jones:Well, I had a very ambivalent relationship with composing. I stopped writing just out of circumstance of the situation and the more negative side of it was ruling me at the time. In fact, there were times where the very thought of composing turned my stomach. Flashing forward into roughly the same time we started, the very beginning of the podcast, I went to a workshop for composers and that is where I met Mr.
Peter E. Jones:Ben Cohen, a superb composer lyricist who said to me one day as we were hitting it off and during this workshop, You know, I really came here to find a collaborator. And I smited my forehead and looked up. It's like because it was the last thing I came there for was to sort of return to the theater in quotes. Was there just as a composer, But it happened and it seemed to happen in a way with a very gentle vengeance.
Peter E. Jones:Maybe Steve is waking through Ben occasionally. Ben has Steve's wit to some degree. I know Steve would have loved it. Just loved it. So maybe Ben carries that.
Peter E. Jones:I look forward to all of us working together. We're going to work well together.
Peter E. Jones:He would be so happy. Everybody thinks that he's going to judge your work or judge this or judge that. And he, of course, was critical judgmental about work. But he did not judge you doing the work, being the artist, making the effort. He only supported and loved that very positively as people have told us in our podcast.
Peter E. Jones:So he would love this. I think he would certainly to a large degree love the the subject matter and everything. But he would love us getting together
Peter E. Jones:It was the thing he told me in the very first letter I got from him. Doing the work, you're doing what you should, writing it and putting it on. And now that I understand, now that I'm in a place in life where I'm not trying to make a career out of it, where I'm not trying to be him, or I'm not as Richard Maltby said, you being you is the thing you can bring in a world where there's been a Steve Sondheim Yes. In the theater. So the me I bring to what I'm writing now is is me.
Peter E. Jones:Ben brings Ben. You bring you. And we're gonna have a wonderful piece that will Like a honor Steve. I
Peter E. Jones:What? What to say?
Martin Milnes:Well, we've said it before but we'll say it again, thank you to Steve.
Peter E. Jones:Thank you to Steve. Thank you in so many ways. I can tell you that, there are times where I become self conscious of how often I refer to him or bring him up or reference him or and I find there are times where I try to tuck that away a bit because I think it must become a bore to some people to constantly hear me say, Well, I remember when or Steve would have said or But that is the kind of influence he That is the kind of person he was. Your life is irrevocably changed by him and you can't help but reference one thing or another that it's inextricable from your experience. To paraphrase one of his own lyrics, once you've known Steve, you could never not have known him again. Yeah. Right?
Martin Milnes:Right. And I hope by what we've done, we've allowed people who never had the privilege of knowing him to get an inkling as to what this wonderful human being was like.
Peter E. Jones:Yes.