Casandra Brené Brown is an American professor, lecturer, author, and podcast host. Brown is known in particular for her research on shame, vulnerability, and leadership, and for her widely viewed TEDx talk in 2010.
Since then she has written six number-one New York Times bestselling books, hosts two podcasts, and has filmed a lecture for Netflix as well as a series about her latest book, Atlas of the Heart on HBO Max.
The Gifts of Imperfection
Braving the Wilderness
Dare to Lead
Atlas of the Heart
Brown holds the Huffington Foundation's Brené Brown Endowed Chair at the University of Houston's Graduate College of Social Work and is a visiting professor in management at McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas at Austin.
- The Gifts of Imperfection
- Daring Greatly
- Rising Strong
- Braving the Wilderness
- Dare to Lead
- Atlas of the Heart
What is Moonshots Podcast: Learning Out Loud?
The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
Hello and welcome to the Moon Shops podcast. It's episode 207. I'm your co-host, Mike Parsons, and as always, I'm joined by Mr. Mark Pson Freeland. Good morning, Mark. Good morning,
Mike, and good morning listeners, members, subscribers. Everybody else within the Moonshot family, you and I, as well as all of our listeners have a bit of a treat in store today as part of Show 2 0 7, don't we, Mike?
We go to one of the ultimate sources of wisdom, one of the most popular people that we have studied on the show, Mark.
That's right. Listeners, we are digging into the world again. Dr. Brene Brown, who's an American professor, lecturer, author, as well as a bit of a podcast host. Mike, you and I, we need to keep an eye out, don't we?
But her research really specifically digs into the idea around vulnerability, leadership, shame, and she's done all sorts of books that you and I have. On the Moonshot show, including gifts of perfection, braving the wilderness and daring greatly. But there's just so much we can learn from Brene that you and I just had to dig in once more into the world of Brene Brown and understand what else can we learn around wisdom and how we can utilize Brene's teachings in our day-to-day
I totally agree. I think the the interesting thing is like when you say, Hey, Brene Brown, expert in vulnerability and shame, you're like that sounds like a rather awkward show to be doing. But the truth really is Mark she talks about. Things and thoughts and behaviors that we very rarely have the capacity or the courage to actually talk about.
In fact, I think she calls us out on all of those bad habits that result from ego. It's almost like somehow you take echo to Jordan Peterson and put a good Texas bit of Frank. Questioning an investigation and you have Brene Brown as she is so good at getting into topics that I think a lot of us run the other direction from.
And I think that's why we wanted to pull together a show. We know that you guys and girls love Brene's work. Her shows have been incredibly popular. We haven't been to Brene for some time. In fact, it's over years Mark, so I feel like. As we have finished a great dose of stoicism from the likes of Ryan Holiday, and before we jump into our wisdom series, the perfect bridge here is someone who's full of wisdom herself, Miss Brene Brown.
So Mark, I am dying to jump in and tackle some uncomfortable questions. I'm ready to challenge myself a bit. I have the growth mindset going, What about. Yeah, I'm feeling
a little bit, should we say nervous, maybe . I'm conscious that Brene is going to start challenging me, and I know the clips that we have ahead of us in today's show are certainly gonna push us to perhaps the edge of our comfort zones, Mike.
And that is good. That's what we want here on the Moonshot Podcast. So why don't we kick. By hearing from Brene herself who's gonna start introducing us to the idea of some of the fundamentals that we've already mentioned and referenced around Brene Brown. But this first clip is gonna help you and I and all of our listeners really understand the challenge that we can put up against critics.
So let's hear from Brene, first of all, telling us about the critic.
I used to think the best way to put your work out into the world is to make sure the critics are not in the arena, but you have no control over who's in the arena. And the best way I have found is to know that they're there and to know exactly what they're going to say to you cuz each of the three seats that will always be taken when you walk into the arena, when you share your work with someone, the three seats that will always be taken are shame, scarcity, and comparison Shame, completely universal human emotion. We all have it. It's that whispers. You're not enough. Or if you're feeling pretty confident like this is, I went through this like in a, when Scott was talking, I went back and forth from like a ping pong table with gremlins back from, Oh my God, I'm not enough.
I'm not enough to, I can do this. I can totally, Oh, who do you think you are? That's the other gremlin. That's how it works. Look at you big for your britches. I clearly have Texas gremlins. I don't. Everyone says too big for their Bries, but that's what my gremlins say. So shame always has a seat. The other seat that's always taken is scarcity.
What am I doing that everyone? What am I doing that's original. Everyone else is doing this. 150 people are doing it. Who are better trained than I'm trained than I am? What am I contributing? Does this really matter? The third seat, always comparison. How many of you ever struggle with comparison? Oh my god.
Comparison. Is it nightmare? I made a pact not to talk to anyone in the green room cuz what I was afraid that I would end up doing is say, So what are you talking about ? That's interesting cuz I'm. And so if it sounds super good and I think I suck comparatively, I may say that, and then I'm catching a flight to Dallas.
Comparison is always there. The fourth seat I left open for you, you gotta know who's in the fourth seat. Is it a teacher? Is it a parent? Is it a shitty ex-coworker, ? Am I the only one that's ever had one of those? The thing is,
I don't care what people think. I don't worry about the critics in the arena sends a huge red flag up for me. We're hardwired for connection. When we stop caring what people think, we lose our capacity for connection. When we become defined by what people think, we lose our capacity to be vulnerable, not caring what people think is its own kind of hustle.
oh, Mike, it's some great Texas open, honest, direct conversation right there. I just love her style, don't you?
Look, I I think what's very enticing and welcoming about Brene is just how relatable I think she can be, even though she's enormously heralded as a professor and lecturer.
She's still telling these stories and we've got a couple of clips coming up as well that just paint her in. Such a related, relatable. Yeah, exactly. Look, I'm gonna hold my hands up straight away. That grem. Brene has referenced, Oh, it's been knocking around in my head.
It might not have a Texas or a Dallas accent , but it certainly has been challenging, through my career. It's certainly reared its head or its voice at moments when I wish it wouldn't. What about you?
Listen, I don't wanna regal you with yet another running and marathon story, but I had that I remember.
Very good friend of mine said to me, Come on late, let's run the marathon together. And the first emotional response was, I dunno if I can do that. I'm, I work a lot, have I got time to train? I don't even 42 kilometers. That seems like a, like an eternity. And it is so crazy. After 47 years.
And if you look at David Goggins, he talks about, celebrating and, keeping a list of all your great wins. He calls a particular name, I can't remember what it is, but he's a cookie jar. That's what he calls it. He says, You gotta have a cookie jar that you go into. And anyway, despite my cookie jar and we've all got them, my first reaction was like, Oh, I don't know.
And that was the gremlin speaking to me. Yes, it is. For me, part of our natural survival technique, I think, is that we allow this fear of failure. We allow self doubt into our world. And lucky I won that battle. I, and maybe naively Mike, I was like yeah, sure, let's do it. I think , what's so great if you can hold onto it.
And this is really interesting. If you can hold onto those moments where you remember you had the self-doubt, but you overcame it and you got the job done, I think that is huge in building the habit so that when you naturally are feeling a little bit uncomfortable, you remember, Oh yeah, that's right. I felt that when I was invited to, to do the marathon.
But I remember I actually, I said yes. In the end I did do it, and I accomplished something amazing and I feel great about that. So it's okay in the future if I feel a little bit awkward, uncomfortable, or I hear the gremlin whispering. Yes.
And I think when there's been moments for me with work, for example, when somebody says to you, Hey, why don't you mark, take on this project?
And I've sat there thinking, and I remember it was several years ago and it was quite a technical project that was dedicated to me. And I remember thinking, oh, I dunno, the first thing. Any of this, I'm gonna really have to learn and that, that kind of creeping gremlin of you're not good enough.
, what are They're all gonna judge you. You're fake. How have you got this far? Leads to that shame that Brene was calling out in that first clip. But you are right by exposing yourself to it and practicing that growth mindset, which we talk about on the show all the time.
The next time it. I was able to, and I quite I just wrote it down the cookie jar. I was able to think back to that previous discomfort and be able to compare it and think actually this second time around it doesn't feel so bad because I feel like I've got a little bit of confidence from it and crashing.
Over time, you just get exposed to it and it does get better, doesn't it?
Yeah. And I think if we're talking about cookie jars, we're very fortunate, Mark, that we have a whole bunch of people in a human cookie jar a whole bunch of people that are snacking away on the goodness of the Moonshot's Master series, and that's our members.
Maha. I think it's only appropriate that we tip the hat to our very special members and supplier. Our
Very special not gremlins, but our very, very special individuals who can help themselves to the Moonshots Master series and the Cookie Jar include Dan Danana, Bob and John Terry, Ken Dimar, Marja, and Connor.
All of our individuals who've been with us for well over 12 months now. Mike?
Yes. Connor just had a one year anniversary as a member of Moonshot, so congratulations to Connor.
Congratulations Connor, but shortly after Connor will be Rodrigo and Yasmin. Lisa, Sid, Mr. BJ Paul and Berg Cowman. David, Joe and Crystal.
Ivo Christian, Hurricane Brain and Samoa, Kelly, Barbara, Andre, and Matthew. Eric and Abby and Joshua, Chris, Deborah Lase and Steve Craig, Lauren, Javier, Daniel, Andrew, Ravi eVet, Karen Raul, PJ Niwa. Hola, Ingram, Sarah, Dirk, Emily, and our brand new member hb. Happy birthday to us, perhaps Mike .
Yeah. Welcome to hb our latest member, and if you'd like to become a member, you'll get full access to a whole second podcast.
The Moonshots Master series, and you can do email@example.com, become our member, Join the club because there's one thing guaranteed is that you're gonna get lunar powered good karma. And I'll tell you what, if you are looking for a bit of that right now, you need to get stuck into Brene Brown. And she's got some thoughts on something that we all do, which is blaming.
How many of you are believers? How many of you, when something goes wrong, the first thing you wanna know is whose fault it is. Hi, my name is bne. I am a blamer. . Let me just tell you this quick story. So this is a couple years ago when I first realized the magnitude to which I blame. I'm in my house, I have on white slacks and a pink sweater set, and I'm drinking a cup of coffee in my kitchen.
It's a full cup of coffee. I drop it on the tile floor, it goes into a million pieces, splashes up all over me. And the first, a millisecond after it hit the floor right out of my mouth is this Damn you. Steve , who is my husband? Because let me tell you how fast this works for me. So Steve plays water polo with a group of friends and the night before he went to go play water.
And I said, Hey, make sure you come back at 10 cuz you know I can never fall asleep into your home. And he got back like at 10 30 and so I went to bed a little bit later than I thought air go, my second cup of coffee that I probably would not be having had he come home when we discussed. Therefore, And so the rest of the story is I'm cleaning up the kitchen.
Steve calls caller id. I'm like, Hey. He's Hey, what's going on babe? What's going on? So I'll tell you exactly what's going on. , , I'm cleaning up the coffee that's filled. All do like dial tone . Cause he. How many of you go to that place when something bad happens? The first thing you wanna know is, whose fault is it?
I'd rather it be my fault than no one's fault. Because Why? Why? Because it gives us some semblance of control. But here, if you enjoy blaming, this is where you should stick your fingers in your ear and do the no, nothing. Cuz I'm getting ready to ruin it for you. Because here's what we know from the research.
Blame is simply the discharging of discomfort and pain. It has. An inverse relationship with accountability. Accountability by definition is a vulnerable process. It means me calling you and saying, Hey, my feelings were really hurt about this and talking. It's not blaming. Blaming is simply a way that we discharge anger.
People who blame a lot, seldom have the tenacity and grit to actually hold people accountable because we expend all of our energy raging for 15 seconds and figuring out whose fault something is. And Blamings very corrosive in relationships. And it's one of the reasons we miss our opportunities for empathy because when something happens and we're hearing a story, we're not really listening.
We're in the place where I was making the connections as quickly as we can about whose fault something was.
Mike, this speaks to me so much and I gotta admit, Yeah,
I think confession time. ,
It's confession time on the Moonshot podcast. Yes, because Mike, I have been Brene. I have been in that situation where maybe I'm distracted.
Maybe there's something else in my mind. Maybe it's work, maybe it's walking the dog. Maybe it's something random and I've accidentally stubbed my. For example, the other day when I was tied in the house I turned around, stubbed my toe on a chair and thought, Ah, I can't believe my wife did that.
And my wife, who, she's a very hardworking doctor, she's uncool. She's not even in a house. But my instinctual reaction was very similar to that story we just heard from Brene, which is, why has Claire done this? And I call myself and I thought, This is at completely unreasonable . I'm the only one here.
The only one here. I'm not losing face, I'm not losing I'm not embarrassing myself in front of anyone. It's just a frustration. And what I realized though, was I was. Blaming, I think I was trying to blame myself for it, but then instinctually trying to deflect it away. And going back to that point that we were talking about earlier, which is this idea of kind of self-preservation, and the desire to not step into an arena and get that uncomfortableness if you have a physical discomfort.
I think it's the same for me at least. What would you. How do you feel when you hear that
clip? Oh, look I'm totally with you. . I think it's, we're angry at ourselves and it is easier to look outside rather than in, don't you? I think we just. It's convenient to blame them because deep inside, you did the wrong thing.
You stubbed your toe, you weren't looking where you were going, or you had your phone in your hand, but sometimes it's hard to admit that because you're admitting failure, you're admitting that you're an. You were dope stumbling around in the house. rather. It's easy. Oh, Claire, why did you do this?
I totally get it. And I think that in the end of the day, we have to see that it's natural to blame others. Sometimes it becomes worse where you become quite judgemental. You know this, to me, it's just wasted energy. I think if you can just be a little bit more pragmatic and down to earth and say, Hey, that's on me, and really mean it.
Not like these disingenuous kind of CEO talks where they fire gazillions of people and say, It's all on me, but I'm talking about. It's really, that was my fault and that's okay. I'm not perfect. I'm just gonna do better. And for me it's, the thing I try to do is not push so much energy out on blaming and judging others and just say, It's okay.
I didn't do great. Here I can do better and let's move on. Because if you think about it getting really angry about the spilled coffee, it's. The coffee's spill. It's done. What? What it's done. The benefit is coming from getting really wound up about it. There is actually technically zero benefit possible from getting upset, so you may as well go.
Huh? It's just a pair of pants. Look, worst case scenario, if we can't remove the stain, I get a new pair, whatever. Like it's not that big a deal. You will never be on your deathbed thinking about, oh, the coffee stain on those white pants. . And I think that's I try to do stuff like that just to get myself out of the blame and out of the judgment.
And I think that it's just amazing for me when you've made the choice of not rushing to judgment. And not rushing towards blame, how it just frees up your time and your head space mark. Oh, it's liberating in that sense of, does that make any, does that make any sense? There,
there was a time when I was younger and I remember something, some, a deadline was messed or deliverable was incorrect with work, and I remember instinctually.
Making a decision in my head you know what? This is so and so's fault. I'll make sure that, my reputation is protected because so and so hasn't delivered. And then I caught myself and thought that's a bit unfair because if I was in so and so's position, I'd prefer a better brief.
Maybe I should have been more aware of the timeline. Maybe I should have had more feedback. Maybe I would've preferred the individual who had given me the work to take more of an active role in reviewing and so on, and by putting myself in their shoes. And imagining what it would be like to receive that blame.
I thought actually that doesn't feel right. It, going back to this idea of legacy that we've talked about on the show a lot recently, if I was teaching somebody, whether it was a child or even talking about it on the Moonshot show, is that something that I'd be really proud?
Probably not. I think I'd be more concerned with the lying or the blaming that comes with not taking responsibility and ownership for that mishap. If anything, I'd rather raise a hand and say, Hey, you know what? Yep, that's on me, but good news is I understand it and I can learn from it.
Suddenly, that feels more worthwhile, doesn't it? It feels more product.
Yeah, and I think it's isn't it great that Brene's questions and her thinking pulls us out of the fog of our own ego? And now she's gonna continue that with a journey into trust, and she's got this great acronym called braving and let's listen up as she explains those.
And actually what we'll do is we'll pick one of those letters and we'll see how we can use it too.
Braving is the acronym we use. B is. You set boundaries when you don't know what they are, You ask, you're clear about what's okay and not okay, which is, as so hard for people. Yeah. Boundaries are really hard.
Reliability is the R. You do what you say and you say what you do. The big, hard thing about re reliability is you're not hustling for worthiness. So you're not completely overcommitting and not delivering. Yes. That's the reliability issue. A is accountability. You don't back channel and blame. You hold people accountable in a straightforward way.
V, which I think is really interesting is the vault. Oh, the vault. Can we talk about the vault for
a second? Yeah. The vault. The vault is so huge cuz in this culture and in this time, I say this with my friends all the time. I'm gonna tell you something. And it's gotta stay in the
vault, right? It has to stay the vault.
And once that goes, if anyone violates that, and I've had it happen
before, something shuts down to me. Oh, it does. It's hard to come back from it. Yeah. What people don't understand about the vault, that's really interesting to me too, is that, You call me in and say, I don't understand why I got the position.
You say, Look, we've got some trust issues that we need to work through. Specifically, I wanna talk about confidentiality in the vault. And I look at you and like Marie, I have never shared a single thing that you have told me in the 10 years we've known each other. And you look back at me and say, Yes, but you come in here on a regular basis and share things with me that are not yours to share.
It's the other side of confidentiality. It is not only do you. Talk out of school between us. You don't come in here and say, Hey, look, I know what's going on with John, blah, blah. Or this is what's happening with, because when I do that and I, I do that to get connection with you, I do that as a bid for connection.
Let me tell you what's going on that you don't know about. Yeah. But when I walk outta the office, you trust me less. Because I'm using stories that are not mine as currency. Yes. So we've got the vault, Then we go to I Integrity, which is choosing courage over comfort, practicing your values, and this is a big one, and I think we have this in common, and I love this about you.
It's choosing what's right over what's fun, fast and easy. Yeah. We have a culture of fun, fast and easy. Yes. We have a culture of people who don't do discomfort. And that's, I've never achieved a single thing in my career or life comfortably. Absolutely, a hundred percent. And then we go to not in for non-judgment.
You can ask for help without feeling judged and eyes can ask for help without judging myself. And then generosity, which I think is probably the biggest, hardest one for me sometimes, which is when something happens, I assume positive intent. So if things go sideways between us, I'm like, Damnit Marie, I'm so pissed off.
I go and say, Let me assume the best. Help me understand what happened. Marie. I thought we had a plan around this. And I give you a chance, a benefit of the doubt before I launch into my anger. Yeah, I think that
one's probably the most difficult for me as well. The one I can see where I
instantly jump to conclusions or I can watch my mind go into
the worst possible scenario I did with my family the other night.
Mike, I, I have to agree. I'm leaning towards that, that last one as probably the one that I fall down a little bit more so than the other six, which is the generosity
idea. Yeah, the generosity. Yeah. Tell it, Tell me.
Yeah. So there's many times it's similar to the story I was recounting a few minutes ago, even now.
With the benefit of experience, with the benefit of maybe being a little bit older and seeing a few more projects and a few more collaborations take place. There's still moments where my initial split second reaction to a bit of bad news. Let's say maybe it's our, we can't meet this deadline, or I've got some feedback, or, sorry you didn't make your KPIs, whatever it might be.
My initial thing will. Frustration. Ah, I, I don't believe that person has done this. I can't believe they have the goal to provide feedback or request more time. Whatever it is, it's. A lack of generosity as I'm now learning from Brene, that's causing my instinctual mindset to lean into that. It's because I haven't cultivated enough of a generous mindset towards others.
We talked about it on the show before, the idea of looking at others when you are out and about, maybe on a walk, and you don't know what that person's done, what their life's all about. And that's quite liberating when you then, try and be more. Open with each other and more generous with your time and your opinions towards them.
But for me, yeah, that's certainly something that I think impacts and affects my intentions, my words, maybe even my actions towards others because I haven't necessarily given myself and given them enough. Generosity in my mindset.
Yeah. My simple thing there is like just don't rush to judgment. Give them the benefit of the doubt.
Don't under there's this ancient wisdom about do not underestimate the battles that a man is facing, If we need someone and don't be too quick to judge. You have no idea what on earth is going on in their world. And we would only hope for the same respect towards ourselves if we're having not like a great day.
And if everybody was rushing to judgment and weren't being generous and yeah, that'd be pretty tough. Wouldn.
Yeah, it certainly would. Likewise, the other element of trust that really spoke to me was this reliability. So the reliability to do what you promise and where I'm seeing this reliability really coming into action is actually off the back of our recent course about goals.
The idea of setting achievable goals and being able to turn around and say no to. When you know that it's gonna get in the way of your deliverables or things that don't matter, I'm thinking John Deere, measure what matters specifically this idea. Holding yourself accountable and therefore being more reliable because you know what you can and can't do, I think is a bigger, big lesson here.
And that's another great takeaway that I'm getting from Brene's work, to
be honest. This acronym of braving, boundaries, reliability, accountability, vault, integrity, non-judgment. I'm Mark. I think that's one or two shows just we could dedicate just to the acronym, but the thing is we've got so much more from Brene Brown to give.
So far we've talked about this idea of how we're affected by the critics and I think like the big takeout there is don't let that self-doubt and that shame. Don't let it block you. Get through that discomfort and when you are in tough situations, maybe in a team situation or a family whatever it is, just don't rush.
Just don't be a blamer and remember that, you gotta build trust in many different ways and you've gotta hold yourself accountable and really bring that braving acronym to life. We've already covered all that. I feel like we could go back and double down on so many of those, but let's keep going cuz there's so much in the body of work from Brene Brown.
And the next thought she. Really comes to with what I think is something that's pervasive here in 2022 in a world post covid and a world full of change. And that is worry and anxiety. And you know what the great news is that Brene Brown has some great advice on how to overcome worry.
Worry is defined as a chain of negative thoughts about bad things that might happen in the.
So I think when you study people who worry and who've overcome worry, what I've learned is reality checking and perspective taking. Is this line of thought helping or hurting? Do I have enough data to freak out? And if I do have enough data to freak out, will that be helpful to me to freak out? And so those have become my questions every time.
One, do I have enough data to expend this amount of energy? I just don't have enough data to be spending this resource, and even if I do have enough data, is this going to help me? And the answer's always no. It's really about self-awareness. We cannot be more connected to other people than we are to ourselves.
And while we desperately seek to build cultures of connection, to build trust in teams, to do the right thing by the people that we serve. If we're not connected to self, if we don't understand our emotional landscape, if we don't understand what's driving our thinking and driving our behaviors, Cause let me make no mistake.
Emotion is at the wheel. Think. And acting are not riding in the front seat shotgun. They are hog tied in the trunk. Emotion drives. We are emotional beings. Do not try to forge connection with others or build a culture of connection until you are fully connected and know yourself. That's the favor you can do to all of us.
We will do almost anything to not feel pain, including causing other people pain. It's so much easier to hurt than to feel. I don't, it's just part of our humanity. We need to understand where the hurt, the sorrow, the despair, the anguish, the rage is coming from so that we can not work it out on other people on an individual level or a collective level.
Yeah, again, Mike, there's still so much we can learn from Brene and going back to what we were discussing at the front of the show, she's calling us out here and in fact, I can almost feel like Brene's calling me out personally here, , because there, there have been times, like I've mentioned earlier, when I've instinctually gone towards the blame game, Oh no, so and so hasn't done what?
They said they were gonna do, so it must be their fault. But actually, as we've just heard, that's just me deflecting the pain away from me towards other people. And that's that instinctual behavior that probably comes with being, an animal at the core of it. And I suppose, it's really just an extension of the fight or flights mentality that we've talked about on the show before, learning how to let's say absorb or at least notice.
Deflection and instead of trying to pass it off to others, instead trying to be more Have a bit more integrity and try and take ownership is something that I've, I think I've gotta start working on and reflecting upon what are you hearing from Brene in, in that clip
Yeah, I look, I think it reminds me of two other shows we've done Echo to and Al Carnegie. If you are interested in getting into this topic of worry and anxiety, stress, hit moonshot and check out the Echo Toll show or Ladale Carnegie, How to Stop Worrying. It reminds me so much of those shows and really the simple exercise I do.
Is, Daniel Pink talks about the power of regret and I think that's a very important, efficient way to go back into the past. Take your learnings and then Mark, get the hell outta there, . Because I think what happens is, I think so many of us get stuck in the past. We've never let go of these things that have happened, not just weeks, but years, a lifetime ago and whatever, pain and suffer.
That we have from the past. Bringing them continuously back into the present is so painful. At some point we have to be at peace with the past. So I always think about not dwelling, not getting stuck in the past, bring myself in into the present cuz that's what we really have. And if you're in interested in this idea of being present in the now, oh my gosh, Echo toll all the way.
I mean we had a lot of show, a lot of fun on that show, didn't we?
I think the aircraft toll show we've come back to so much and I took so much away from it because the cause of anxiety or feeling insecure feeling may be even overwhelmed with lots of things to do. Is down to how your, how I was com compartmentalizing and diagnosing all that data that was available to me.
So similar to what Brene was just calling out in that previous clip. Do I have enough data to warrant expending the energy? If I'm thinking about Eckhart, the benefit of being present, thinking about today, and only really worrying about things that are in front of me, rather than the unnecessary worry that then just takes a bandwidth means that it's freeing, isn't it?
There's a lot of liberation. Like of just getting over the past, and I'm not saying it is easy, but it's important work to do. Equally, what Dale Carnegie really taught me was when you're thinking about the future, it is very easy. To get a whole lot of worry going on about things that have yet to happen.
And isn't it crazy, Mark, that we can spend so much time and energy thinking, worrying, stressing about things that have yet to pass? And what he says is, Look, think about what is and answer this question, what is the worst that can happen? And actually attack that. Be open to that. Write it down. Get to your core fear about the future, and then start improving upon that situation.
If you accept there is a worst case scenario, mark. The truth really is rarely does the absolute worst case scenario ever play out. It's always absolutely particularly if you are prepared to confront that thought and accept that thought, and then improve upon that, you can do things to mitigate any sort of discomfort, suffering, challenge, chaos, whatever it is that you're trying to get through.
So for me, it's on one hand what we're taking from Bernett here is, number one, don't get stuck in the past, but look, ask yourself what's the worst thing that can happen in the future? And. Move through it, like deal with the emotions that you may feel when you look to the past or to the future. But then I think bringing yourself screaming into the now is the ultimate Alexa, isn't it?
Mark? Be present. And I think there is so much work for us to do just to put down our phones, to pause, to breathe and just be. Right now. That's what matters. It's so simple. That's sometimes so hard, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Some of the techniques that I use to try and stay in the moment from an echo perspective, only focus on the now and the present.
And in doing so, try to get closer to what Brene's encouraging us to do, which is, look at things, object. And decide whether it's worth your worry or not, is, embracing a bit of nature. Taking the dog for a walk, stepping away from the constant notifications on my laptop and my devices, Trying to just get out into essentially a bit of a quieter world for want of a bit of phrase, and then feeling what's around me.
So that might be the. That that's coming alive in the sun, or if it's raining or if it's cold, you can feel that all over. Likewise, when taking a cold shower in the mornings, you're bringing yourself into that moment because every synapse is kicking off and you can feel almost every centimeter of yourself.
But it also, for me, comes down to his smell the sounds that I can hear as well as what I can see in front of me. Those are, they're. Simple when you break it down like that, All I'm really saying is trying to use all of my senses and notice the things around me right here, right now.
But there's most of my day when I'm deep in, work or emails or if I'm on a call or if I'm trying to, put out a fire somewhere, it's not gonna be on the top of my mind to really notice what's around me. Instead, I'm only gonna be focused on my screen, on one type of thinking, and that's when I.
For me at least, the anxiety or that worry that Brene's talking about really adds up and that energy really gets expended because it's not necessarily being used in the right way. It's just going on one thing to try and finish or complete, rather than noticing everything that's around us Do. Do you relate at all to that, Mike?
When I listened to what you're saying, I was taken back to some of the practices that you mentioned. For sure. Mark, if there was a survival guide for overcoming worry, when in doubt take a walk
outside . Yes. Don't think
that would be the.
Yeah, it's gotta
be number one. It's gotta be, It is so simple.
It's so easy. The barrier to entry, not so high , so take a walk. If you can walk near a park or in a park, that gets a little bit better. But I think what was really cool about what you were talking about is something that I have really been working on, and that is focusing on your senses.
What do you feel smell. That really bring you into the present. And just focusing on your sensory experience is a great way to get out of your head and stop listening to those little voices or gremlins, as Brene would say. I reckon that is like a go-to toolkit. And I think that if you wanna expand upon that, there's breath work.
Just hit up YouTube and look up breath exercises in particular. One I recommend is 4 78. Breath work Very good at calming down your nervous system. I think the next thing is meditation, whether it's focused or unfocused. Meditation, I think stretching. I think writing your journal you. These are the kind of things that really set you up for success.
Taking care with your diet and your exercise. Huge ways to reduce worry and stress in your life. Keep, this is a big one for me, mate. Keep a consistent time to bed and wake time with your. It is amazing if you are consistent with that. It's like a foundation. It's like cement. It makes you impervious to the ups and downs of the day.
It's when your sleep is all over the place. Then, it's like having a hangover for me sometimes if I've really blown my sleep pattern. There's just so much we can do to overcome worry. And I think, if I look at just the rise in anxiety amongst executives, but also I'm looking at younger generations like the rise of anxiety and stress is really concerningly high.
So we gotta get them into a bit of Brene Brown,
Mark. We really do. And actually when I'm thinking about the times when I'm very worried and I have anxiety over, maybe it's again, let's choose work, for example, a bit of deliverable or whether I want to confess to something in front of friends or my family.
Something that, maybe I've embarrassed myself, whatever it might be, or whether it's a life goal. Maybe it's an ambition or an objective. Maybe it's training for a marathon or starting a book that I. Now need to confront and say, Oh look, I haven't quite committed to it often. There's only one thing that really holds me back.
And this next clip we're gonna hear from Brene really helps encourage you and I and our listeners to get out of our comfort zone. So let's hear from Brene now talking about how perfectionism holds us back. It says,
Here's the secret, , the when perfectionism is driving shame is always riding shotgun. And fear is the annoying backseat driver say it.
When perfectionism is driving, shame is always riding shotgun. We struggle with perfectionism in areas where we feel most vulnerable to shame. Does that make sense? So we're all comfortable saying, Yeah, I'm a little perfectionistic, which is code for I do things really well, but I don't really, I'm not comfortable saying I have shame, but perfectionism, what is that?
I call it the 20 ton shield. Here's what perfectionism really. It's a way of thinking that says this, If I look perfect, live perfect, work, perfect, I can avoid or minimize criticism, blame and ridicule. Whoa, that's good. All perfectionism is the 20 ton shield that we carry around hoping that it'll keep us from being hurt.
when in truth what it does is it keeps us from being seen. And so we had a great talk about what's the difference between perfectionism. Yes. Cuz somebody on my staff had the
nerve to tell me that I was a perfectionist. And I absolutely deny that. And you stood by me. Thank you very much, . Cause I'm not a perfectionist.
I'm a person who strives for excellence and requires excellence.
There. There is a difference. Is there not? There is a difference. Here's the difference. Cause sometimes I'm a healthiest driver. And sometimes I'm a perfectionist. It depends on if I'm feeling, if I've got a worthiness crunch going on. Yeah.
So healthy striving is internally focused. It's, I wanna do this and be the best I can be. Perfectionism is not about what I want. It's perfectionism is exactly what will people think. Think yes.
What will people think? We fall victim to this question so much in our lives, whether it's the choice of how we look, how we work, it's like we're so desperate to please everybody else.
It's take care of yourself first, right?
Look I must admit Mike again, look Brene, it's clearly just a show about Brene picking on Mark, isn't it? She's putting you on that spot. But I've gotta admit, it is really difficult for me to if I was to sit here and objectively think of the last, let's say, 10 decisions I've made that have in no way.
Had an element of others going into making that decision. And what I mean by that is me choosing to do something just for me rather than what other people are gonna look at and see and judge me, it would be really hard because there's so much of the way that I'm that I operate, that I think is influenced or at least impacted.
By the way that others are going to interpret it, whether it's, work, maybe exercise. Yeah, I'll feel great, but there's always that little 10% or 20% of me that will be thinking, Oh, I wonder what so and so will think of this. This makes me look good. This makes me look active. Don't
you think? Yeah we have this.
And gosh, it's a tricky one too, isn't it? Because I think. If you are so busy listening to that voice of what others are going to think, what they're gonna say, whether they are holding you accountable, judging you, or embarrassing you, whatever it is, if you allow that and I certainly have as well, it is a barrier between you becoming.
Who you should be. We talk a lot on the show about being the best version of yourself. You have to incur a little bit of criticism judgment, pain, hardship. You've gotta get through all of that to find the best version of yourself. Let's look at it. All the people that we really admire and respect, they have had to forgo.
Things they have had to go through hardship to earn what they have accomplished. And the crazy thing here is if at the beginning of that journey they had to listen to that voice of judgment, then they wouldn't have even started their journey. Imagine if Steph Carey never really tried to make the NBA.
Just imagine the world without that. Or imagine if someone like Oprah when she got fired from television, Not being TV friendly. Li literally the queen of television was fired for not being good for TE television. So work that one out. , she kept coming. She took the blame, the judgment, the shame.
She moved through it. Imagine if that self doubt had overcome her and she didn't pursue her career in television. Imagine that. Imagine that. So I think for. When I think about this idea of trying to be perfect for everyone on the outside, but not doing what you should on the inside, that is such an opportunity.
Cost pleasing others while not serving yourself. And the big twist for me is when you do serve yourself in the right way. You're actually able to serve others far better because you are, yes, happier, you're healthier, you're just plain or better. You're open to a world of possibilities. You wanna make things happen.
You take time to reflect. You enjoy that beautiful harm of harmony and momentum when you're doing things that make you feel good, Things that have impact on the people around you and yourself as well. But this need to appear perfect to be, two kids, two cars in a beautiful house with the perfect job, beautiful, happy, healthy.
If you are doing that at the cost of. Being your true self and realizing your potential. You've allowed blame and judgment and shame to win the battle. And I don't think anyone deserves that.
No big time. Big time. And I think the call out around perfectionism being addictive as well, I think is a really valuable insight that I'm gonna take away from that closing click We heard from Brene.
Why do I want to be held hostage? Buy this. Why do I want perfectionism to perhaps stop me from trying out and creating something brand new for the world? I, we've obviously heard from Elizabeth Gilbert with Big Magic and how the idea of creation and originality you shouldn't limit yourself just because somebody else has done an idea or a behavior or run a marathon.
Just because they have doesn't mean you. So this idea of being empowered to go out and try stuff, I think is a huge, again, call out that Brene's really speaking to me and hopefully a lot of the Moonshot listeners as well.
Exactly. And I think just to finish the thought here is we know nothing is perfect, so therefore, the pursuit of perfectionism at the cost of pursuing what you should, it's mission impossible.
It can't be. Yeah, you'll never get perfection impossible. You'll never look every single day. So why are you so held up in that when there's another path of being your true self? What I call to arms from Brene Brown with a Texas twang. I think there is just, There's a reason that Mark, you and I and all of our listeners and members love Brene Brown, and that is she is just calling us out and saying that ego's running rampant.
Don't be bothered by the critics. Make sure you respect the vault. Don't blame and judge others. There's so much in all of this, but of everything we've heard, and I know she's been calling you out, Mark , but all of those big uncomfortable questions, which one really
worked for. It's the blame game.
It's the blame game being, and I hold my hands up. I have been hostage, held, hostage by myself, and I've blamed others when probably I should have turned the mirror around Mike. That's the thing for me about ownership and the behavior that I'll try and change. What about you of all this plethora of good stuff from Brene, What are you taking away from?
Oh man. Like where does one start with all of these? Like really I'm just like, How good is Brene? That's where I am. I just think that once again, it's this idea. There is this, there's no textbook for this stuff. Thank goodness she wrote her work. Thank goodness she has studied these themes of trust and vulnerability and courage and shame and empathy.
Oh my gosh. Where would we be without the opportunity for someone to nail it like she has? So Mark, I just wanna thank Brene Brown. I want to thank you and I want to thank you, our listeners and our members for show 207 Brene Brown. It's the master. So it's the masterclass of essential wisdom from the text in herself.
And we learned about the self doubt that comes from the critics and we need to move through it. But in doing that, we cannot be a blamer. And she gave us a great acronym, The braving and the big letter that we took from that was the vault to build the. Don't break the trust, respect the vault with yourself and with others, and you'll be a long way to creating the trust.
And don't let the worry of getting things done in the future or the past. Hold us back, move forward, be present in the now, and make sure that you pursue your real path, your true destiny. Be the best version of yourself. Don't allow perfectionism to hold you back. And if there was ever a mantra for the moonshots, It is exactly that.
So learn out loud together. Be the best version of yourself. Embrace the themes of courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. And you'll no doubt shoot for the moon. Okay, that's a wrap.