What They Don’t Teach You About Leading Indicators — Brad Hall Spells It Out

Show Notes

Most teams track dozens of numbers but miss the few that move outcomes. In this episode, Brad Hall explains leading vs lagging indicators in plain language and shows how to choose a single predictive metric your team can influence weekly. You’ll learn how to build a one‑screen dashboard anyone can read in 60 seconds, run a 15‑minute feedback loop to course‑correct, and avoid common traps like vanity metrics and tool sprawl. We wrap with a simple 30/60/90 rhythm and a week‑one checklist you can deploy immediately to turn data into momentum.

Summary with bullets

• Why this matters now—and why most dashboards miss the point
• Leading vs lagging (plain English, zero jargon)
• Pick one predictive metric your team owns weekly
• Build a one‑screen dashboard anyone can read in 60 seconds
• Run a 15‑minute weekly loop: check signal → ship one change → note what improved
• Avoid vanity metrics, tool sprawl, and “more meetings”
• 30/60/90 cadence + week‑one checklist for quick wins

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Safety Consultant Show with Sheldon primus, where we blend safety sparks with business brilliance and the pitch of Sheldon's signature width, whether you're a safety pro of fresh face consultant, or just safety curious, get ready for a show that will educate, entertain and elevate your safety game.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's dive into the art of consulting, with your safety shift in himself, Sheldon primus.

[SPEAKER_01]: This episode is powered by Safety FM.

[SPEAKER_03]: Brad, welcome to the show and thank you so much for just being part of it and honestly is a chance meeting that we had on an Arizona hiking trail and here we are sitting in an editing virtual booth together.

[SPEAKER_03]: So absolutely grateful that we had this meeting and welcome, welcome my new friend to the safety consultant show with me, show the premise.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me, Sheldon.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was a choice meeting, so thanks again for reaching out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's cool, because I got to meet you, your sister, your wife, someone else, your wife, too, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it's funny how you explain your family is being medical family, and I read that your family, the the joking side, is that you guys could take care of from toe to teeth.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_03]: that is awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: So where do you stand in the picking order of children?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we've got an oldest girl in a youngest girl and they're both nurses.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have three boys in the middle and I'm the youngest boy.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're all medical, I dentist, a physician and a physical therapist.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we all told the little sister that she should have been a pharmacist because we need more drugs.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there you go.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything else we had covered, we just maybe

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there you go.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_03]: On the youngest of five, so there's a lot of dynamics related to being in such a large family, too, in that absolutely life changing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so your group is Phoenix Technical Health Care, and just when I do one of the first

[SPEAKER_03]: what you do related to not only doing physical therapy but physical therapy for first responders and working with cities and counties and I park right up because that's one of the things that I love to tell people is you want to get involved with cities and counties because usually when you're in you are in.

[SPEAKER_03]: We have repeat business for you too, but so tell us a little bit about

[SPEAKER_03]: trying to you and and Austin getting the the Phoenix group started there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Austin, we both met in grad school.

[SPEAKER_02]: Our wives actually were friends long before we met each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, Austin, yeah, we were both to North Arizona for our doctor degrees and became good friends there.

[SPEAKER_02]: We end up doing our clinical rotations and working together in some different settings and 2019 he and I end up partnering in business and both of us were, um, I don't want to say fed up with but just frustrated with.

[SPEAKER_02]: kind of the traditional medical system and just wanted things to look different and to be different.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Austin always refers to it as Mayberry.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what if you could practice medicine in a place where it was just about a small town just the people that you knew and care about?

[SPEAKER_02]: He says, you know, what would you do?

[SPEAKER_02]: And if it was your own family member coming in, like, what type of care would you give?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, how amazing would it be if you could do that all the time?

[SPEAKER_02]: So, excuse me, the driving force was to say, let's let's get away from insurance based medicine and I think just the big push initially was just to have that autonomy.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, 2019 we partnered and I had had a lot of background with with first responders and working with, you know, tactical athletes who were referred to the mass and Austin had background with professional golfers and other professional athletes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we put together this kind of hybrid model of kind of high performance care, but focused very much.

[SPEAKER_02]: So on the the public safety sector, working with police officers and firefighters

[SPEAKER_02]: Over the last six years that's been kind of our major focus and so our rebranding didn't take place until about two years ago, where we really just said, hey, our identity, our purpose is to maximize longevity.

[SPEAKER_02]: quality of life and performance for first responders.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's kind of open this whole new realm of not just being reactive health care, not just, you know, we say, don't park the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, but, you know, can we also get into building some fences at the top of the cliff and.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, prevention and teaching about biomechanics and, you know, mechanism of injury and, you know, communication within the workplace, but it's been fun for us because we are very much, especially the beginning, we are very much the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

[SPEAKER_02]: These are things that we can we can prevent this, you know, we can we can we can forecast when and how these things might happen and if not just mitigate the severity of the injury so yeah it's been an exciting road to kind of expand our minds and take away all the rules that sometimes

[SPEAKER_02]: medicine gets stuck in and to really just say you know what can we do to really improve like I said the longevity which we say that's like the x-axis, yeah, four months that's the y-axis and then quality of life we say that's like the z-axis but all three of those dimensions especially for first responders like sleep mental health, nutrition,

[SPEAKER_03]: stress management, you know, exercise, all those types of things are things that There's not really a lot of rules when it comes to making somebody more healthy and so that's That's kind of the story that's how we got to where we are now Oh nice and the name phoenix built f e n i x I don't know suburb of phoenix is really good that you had to differentiate yourself a little It's a my guide for story in there somewhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's uh

[SPEAKER_02]: the sound of it, and then the spelling, and now a brand, so it's all progressed.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was a thick fan of the guy we're back in the day, so I appreciate that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Stick a gum in the paperclips.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can do anything right?

[SPEAKER_03]: No kidding.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I can't tell you that I've seen episode in a new one.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just don't principle.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like Hawaii 50.

[SPEAKER_02]: Same thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: You got to stick with the original.

[SPEAKER_03]: Good reference.

[SPEAKER_03]: I did not see any of the new stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: Nope, constant.

[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he's my guy.

[SPEAKER_03]: When you guys had to pivot, because you said you started in 2019, and that brings a vivid memory back to us when we hear 2020.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you guys made it through the pandemic errors.

[SPEAKER_03]: What did you have to do during that time period to either be sustainable or pivot or cut back?

[SPEAKER_03]: What did that time period look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the more time passes, the more we can really appreciate, you know, when they say timing is everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think we were still very much in a growth cycle then.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we were building relationships and providing services.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we say that a lot of the big businesses, they were kind of the big Viking swords, where there was a lot of power and a lot of size, but not very maneuverable.

[SPEAKER_02]: the Romans.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had these small little agility tools that we could attack with a little more precision.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that put us in a really good place.

[SPEAKER_02]: And quite frankly, if we were bigger than we were at the time, it would have been a lot harder for us.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like it allowed us to really

[SPEAKER_02]: At least for a month or two I'd say to really like reflect on who we are and what is our product and who is it that we want to you know provide services for I think there's a lot of reflection time but after that I think we were small enough and luckily just because of the mandates we were able to stay open because as as an essential service in medicine yeah a lot of people saw this out I would say our community we provide one on one care.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're in a relatively small setting, so people weren't feeling very anxious about, oh, I'm going to PT and surrounded by a big gymnasium full of people that are having and puffing people I think they felt very safe and I think even, you know, a lot of our referral sources, they preferred.

[SPEAKER_02]: sending them to us knowing that we had this, this one-on-one business model that wasn't technicians and staff and, you know, a big front office, but it, like you said, it was more that, that, that Roman sword as opposed to the Viking that that helped us kind of get through and.

[SPEAKER_02]: Quite frankly, we, I felt like we were thriving.

[SPEAKER_02]: We actually.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had set some five-year goals in 2019 and even with COVID's disturbance, we met those five-year goals in the first 18 months.

[SPEAKER_02]: So definitely a lot of adaptation and maneuverability, but it was a time for us to grow.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm hearing a lot in that conversation there because first knowing that you guys were

[SPEAKER_03]: to not only maintain your money and your practice, if you would, because, you know, you gotta think about the family side too.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then the practice side, it seems like you had a lot of planning and not only planning execution.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's that look like,

[SPEAKER_03]: team meetings between you two, or does that look like you email out some goals?

[SPEAKER_03]: Or dry your race board sessions?

[SPEAKER_03]: What did that look like for you guys to get all those objectives men and even made?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a great question.

[SPEAKER_02]: We say, one of the great services of a formal medical education is that if you want to get into private practice, in a lot of cases, you have very little if any professional education on, how to create an LLC, what does a business structure look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: How exactly do you talk about meetings and

[SPEAKER_02]: different roles and responsibilities and you need to have an account and you need an attorney and you know article of this of incorporation and nobody's there to show you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I give Austin a ton of credit.

[SPEAKER_02]: He put boots on the ground first and his

[SPEAKER_02]: his ability to create order and to put things into structure is, he's phenomenal with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: My gifts and abilities are more on the creative, maybe energetic side of things, where I'm more of an idea guy or more of a, hey, let's solve these problems in these ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: So putting those gifts together, I think really poised us in a position to say, hey, like we can, we can do some good.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I would say the major domino that began a pretty significant change for us was we hired a lady by the name of Shelley Turner, and Shelley's our office manager, our practice manager.

[SPEAKER_02]: She had worked for the table group, which I don't know if you know anything about Patrick and Shionni or

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just an organizational behavior, kind of a business hygiene, you know, bit organizational business entity, and they have some really, really good content.

[SPEAKER_02]: And of all the different books and, you know, the Harvard Business Review and traction, some of these other real popular,

[SPEAKER_02]: infrastructures for business.

[SPEAKER_02]: We tried to kind of read up and subscribe to those, but I really felt like it wasn't until we found kind of an infrastructure around a lot of the content from the table group that we really felt like we could find like, oh, this fits our style, this fits our personalities.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they've got a phenomenal book that I would say is probably one of the most impactful

[SPEAKER_02]: And basically, they break down tasks, they break down like a service of work into segments.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they even have kind of a, what would you call it, an evaluation or a survey that you can take?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it helps you to identify, you know, what are the gifts that you have?

[SPEAKER_02]: And what is the type of work that brings you energy and allows you to thrive and grow?

[SPEAKER_02]: And the neat part about it is you can take this survey

[SPEAKER_02]: But if you take an amongst a group of your peers, people that you're working with and you see everyone's different gifts, it will actually point out the type of relationship that can allow you to thrive together and utilize in your differences.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it also helps you identify some blind spots of if Austin's gift is to edit and make more efficient a system and my gift is more to create

[SPEAKER_02]: The way that we interact, there are certain things that, because of the way we're wired, we may not see or understand each other perfectly, and it draws attention to those things.

[SPEAKER_02]: So back to the kind of the root of your question of staff meetings, we meet together twice a week.

[SPEAKER_02]: One meeting is very focused on the process of the business.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's based on our relationships and execution of tasks and roles.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have what we call our standard operating objectives and that's just how to things function and then we have a second meeting for the week that's called our case management meeting and that's very medical.

[SPEAKER_02]: We sit in a room with all the providers.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have mental health services.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have physical therapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have a primary care doctor.

[SPEAKER_02]: like it's exciting to see, you know, what do people need?

[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like there's a lot of camaraderie from that meeting, because it reminds us that the common goal is always about the people that we serve.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's it may be a roundabout answer, but I think that's the amount of how we've we've graduated to matured into what we are today.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now that's great because you need a full guess for you guys, it's different disciplines, but then there's the camaraderie and the blend, I guess, of camaraderie and then practical.

[SPEAKER_03]: actionable type of movement from you got to do this today, and we've got this meeting and we've got this patient activity, those two things have to be married together in order for you guys to do what you do.

[SPEAKER_02]: I would say that's a very unique thing about a medical business is that in order to practice medicine, you have to have a very intensive process to be licensed in whatever discipline you provide.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so you tend to be very dominant in that, but you also have to have a business that has procedures and process that have to mesh with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's pretty uncommon for people to really thrive in both of those.

[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes what I perceive is that if people are very business dominant, they tend to forget about the product of medicine needs to be very high quality, it needs to be personal, it needs to be, you know, that there's a...

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a healing in a very intimate, you know, process to that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just flipping patties or, you know, gwashing a car.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is, this is people's lives.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the other part is if people are really good at medicine and they are terrible at business and their processes and, you know, the ability to run a business and, you know,

[SPEAKER_02]: jumbled schedules and missing appointments and not giving reminders or billing incorrectly, that can then become really frustrating or develop distrust toward the medical provider.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so to mesh those together, to me has been, it's been some growing pains for us, but when you can do that very successfully, I think people love what happens here because

[SPEAKER_02]: They realize, oh, I have a really good business, but they have poor medicine or have really good business or really good medicine and it's a poor business.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you find the two of those, it's a it's a powerful combination.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: And honestly, as those that you listening to this, you're trying to start your own business or you're running your own business currently, that's words to live by.

[SPEAKER_03]: You need a little bit of both.

[SPEAKER_03]: You gotta have the business prowess to be really good and be good or what your discipline is.

[SPEAKER_03]: But then you're also going to make sure that you've got the foundation for business so that people feel like they could trust you with the appointment making and they could trust you knowing that you're going to handle their billing writing and you're not going to mess things up and double charge them.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a very good marriage if you would have

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and that's, I remember standing on top of the superstition mountains with you Sheldon, and that's one of the things you said is, if organizations just focus on taking care of people, everything else tends to work out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's pure wisdom.

[SPEAKER_02]: You've got some gray hair in that beard, and I think you've earned it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that's the, you're teaching young guys like me, you know, not to forget that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, look at your segment right there, because I was about to talk about your teaching at ASU and you just went right to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So tell me about that part, because I used to be an adjunct instructor as well for Florida Gateway College.

[SPEAKER_03]: one of the things that always drove me nuts was, students always ask me things that's in the syllabus.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what, man, you're supposed to read your syllabus and you signed off that you read your syllabus.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, how is the teaching part when you're seeing people like my son who's going to the same?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a blend as you are and he's learning to be a doctor of physical therapy and you've got these young people that are getting into your field and you've got to get them to think how to utilize new information such as AI and how to do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: the work with the tried and true stuff from your discipline.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the balance.

[SPEAKER_03]: So how do you approach your ad junk instructor side?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the backstory to that's a little is pretty interesting, but

[SPEAKER_02]: I attended Arizona State University, had a great experience there and developed some really meaningful relationships with professors who were more than teachers, they were mentors.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it become good friends over the years and ultimately, as I got into practice after I had finished my doctor degree, I just kind of got that itch to say, you know, what else is out there, you know, what else could I do and

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, a good friend and previous professor of mine, she said, well, look, come, come, check out things at ASU.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're interested in a part-time, you know, teaching position, I said, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I picked up a couple classes and really, really enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the courses that they needed taught, one was called Evidence-Based Practice, which is an essence.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you use research and literature to make medical decisions?

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and that was a great, great opportunity.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was only a semester later.

[SPEAKER_02]: They said, you know, we have a full schedule for you if you'd like to come on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I made the jump.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that whole process was just one, I'd never been associated with such a large organization.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that was a great experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a deep love for Arizona State.

[SPEAKER_02]: I grew up down the street.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a son devil through and through.

[SPEAKER_02]: And being associated with a very large, you know, heavy ingenuity, you know, based organization was awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: But teaching students was phenomenal, but the real driver that allowed that door to open for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: was these faculty members.

[SPEAKER_02]: They would say, hey, Brad, we have all these experts in academia and research, but we don't have any clinicians here.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have people who actually provide health care services, and this is a pre-medical pre-professional degree that they're receiving.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the door that was opened and the emphasis that was asked of me was to say,

[SPEAKER_02]: bring your professional experience and they even motivated me to say, hey, stay on staff at the hospital, you know, stay on staff, you know, providing medical service so you can be that that voice of of reason and logic and that was so fun because I came in and I was teaching evidence and I was teaching about research, but the big focus that was really driven to me was.

[SPEAKER_02]: but make it real like talk to them about not just the classroom and not just graduate school but talk to them about what does it look like to really do this for a living and to really help people and yeah that's been a phenomenal experience and I still go back I'm trying to think it's probably three or four times a year they'll help me come back and provide a lecture to the the first year kinesiology 101 you know very first year of premed

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, pre professional degree students and we talk about a lot of the same things you and I are talking about right now, but that's been a great relationship over the years.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's great to hear the story of how you now give back to the university that you love so much.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: Go Devils, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: I actually, I love seeing adjunct instructors as they connect with students and truly help them see that this is what's your path will be if you just stick to it, you got this and give them that encouragement.

[SPEAKER_02]: In such a blessing, I mean, I know you feel the same way sheldon, but I talked about that

[SPEAKER_02]: I, I shuttered, I think had I not had somebody there to help me, and it's sometimes to advocate for me to say, hey, this is a good person, you know, and to write a letter recommendation or to give me a phone call for a job interview to say, hey, this is, this is a good person.

[SPEAKER_02]: Those people that, that intervene on my behalf, I feel eternally indebted to, and I think

[SPEAKER_02]: there's some kid out there that that can do a good job that they need someone there to show them the way and so I feel very indebted and very very grateful for the people that have come before me but there's days that sometimes I feel a little too busy and there's a lot going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when that happens, I sometimes I need that reality check to say, hey, these, these people, their life is depending on it, just like my life did.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I can't think of anything more valuable for a professional than to go find people that are maybe lost in their way, to give us context to what we're doing today and what actually matters and to feel that gratitude of,

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, look how blessed I am.

[SPEAKER_02]: Look at look at how my life is prospering.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if I would have known that I would be sitting in this chair today, you know, talking about these things, if you were to tell me that 10 years you've got to say no way, no way that would ever happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: This would be beyond my wildest dreams.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, keeps it plugged in.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I actually teach roughly around 200 students or so in the professional world.

[SPEAKER_03]: So they're all adults and as I'm teaching them, some of the things related to health and safety and teaching them how to be good.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just mindful, safety and health officers and listening to their groups.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I hear some of these stories where everyone's like,

[SPEAKER_03]: All I know is how to write people up.

[SPEAKER_03]: Come on, Mary.

[SPEAKER_03]: Stop it.

[SPEAKER_03]: People have to ask up in the hand.

[SPEAKER_03]: Write people up.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's not understanding the true problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's not understanding context.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I try to teach them context of what those behaviors are or what the context of why this person do, what they did at the time they did.

[SPEAKER_03]: for the reason they did it and it now gives you context and then also hopefully empathy because everybody needs a little bit of both.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I see that at least I hear that and what you're saying with your students to switch the thought slightly, but still thinking about context.

[SPEAKER_03]: I noticed that you use the matrix as to

[SPEAKER_03]: this is what your worker can perform and this is how quickly they could get back and then you translate that to this is how much dollars you could solve or save, excuse me, so from these activities got you guys thinking about educating your your potential customers in such a way

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you mentioned earlier about I kind of visualize a then diagram of this is my scope of practice and this is somebody else's, you know, say you work for a municipality, whether you're a firefighter or maybe you work for.

[SPEAKER_02]: HR or for a safety team and the municipality, but without question, they know things that I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know things that they don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think finding that overlap is the first spot to say, hey, our common interest and our common knowledge is people.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then,

[SPEAKER_02]: the great outage of seek first to understand and then to be understood.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think is to ask questions about what their job and responsibility is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if good example is you find somebody like in our our industry, if we find somebody who's say that the head of health and wellness for a fire department,

[SPEAKER_02]: To begin with the question of, hey, what is it that holds your people back?

[SPEAKER_02]: What are the limitations or what are the problems that you face?

[SPEAKER_02]: It is broad as that and to let them share.

[SPEAKER_02]: In some question that I'll ask people is, I'll say, hey, if I gave you half a million dollars and you had to spend it on your organization to make it better, how would you spend that money?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I've never heard the same answer twice.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's a party.

[SPEAKER_02]: And one guy, probably one of the more surprising answers is someone said to me the other day I said, how would you spend that money to make, he works for a local fire department?

[SPEAKER_02]: He said, I think we have a lot of guys that have a lot of auditory hearing damage.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, I would do a lot more investigation to have baseline measurements and then implementing

[SPEAKER_02]: You know some protective some PPE type interventions to protect people's hearing and he was I really think that would improve their quality of life And I looked at him like wow like he's thought about this and it matters to him and he's seen it enough times, but

[SPEAKER_02]: as I've asked more people about it because I never really thought there's a lot of first responders that end up having a lot of hearing damage and I'm a physical therapist that's not my scope but here's a firefighter teaching a PT about a scope of practice that's not in my realm but for me as a healthcare provider to say let's go find somebody.

[SPEAKER_02]: they can solve this problem, but it begins with that question of what is it that you're struggling with, what's the problem for you?

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's been a really exciting thing, but things like we mentioned earlier, sleep analysis, understanding, you know, what are the difficulties of working a 48-hour shift?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what risks are there of administering and medication incorrectly after you've been up for, you know, 36 hours straight.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you look at these things that are hard for them and ultimately you just come in to help solve a problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think understanding them then creates our purpose and quite honestly the reason that we got into the mental health services

[SPEAKER_02]: were to meet the needs of things that we saw repeatedly were not being met.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we said, I can't do that, but I can find somebody who can.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that was kind of the growth pattern for our business, but it was based off that whole principle of trying to understand first.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's great and I know there's a real data out there that just basically says that they've first responders, their suicide rates are pretty high and I could

[SPEAKER_03]: It's trying to be careful, I don't want to be hyperbolic in any way, but it's not as high as in the construction industry, which is at epidemic proportions right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's high enough that you may probably see a good sense of firefighters, please.

[SPEAKER_03]: First responders that have gone through some pretty crappy stuff, and they're internalized it because if you're drawn to that field,

[SPEAKER_03]: chances are your empathetic person and then when you have to go through this over and over and over and over, it makes it where those years of having to see people at their worst it affects you.

[SPEAKER_03]: How do you guys deal with that with when you see patients like that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a, I'm gonna take a little tangent on that and I will answer the question, but you talk about first responders and what it is that they experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's very real trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the hearing people into big tough, salty men and these women that can just do incredible things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when everything's going wrong, they're running toward the trouble and not away from it, they're amazing people.

[SPEAKER_02]: For me, I think I had this strong feeling for a long time that it was all the things that they saw, it was all the things they experienced that really created some of these deep wounds in their soul.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that to me was what I assumed.

[SPEAKER_02]: the more time I spend around them, the more value and the more emphasis I'm seeing around the importance of sleep and the shift work, that's not the same thing as the traumas that they see.

[SPEAKER_02]: Those are two different factors.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what I've noticed with the sleep component of it is that somebody who works these, these shift work hours, which the World Health Organization just classified shift work is a carcinogen.

[SPEAKER_02]: People are beginning to research and appreciate the effects of of what's happening when the body doesn't get to rest.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what I wanted to point out, Sheldon is when you don't achieve REM sleep at night.

[SPEAKER_02]: Rem is when your body processes all of the metabolic byproducts that happen during the day of us using our brain and so Rem is when our brain sleeps and there's a substance that is basically it's almost like the metabolic exhaust or the burn off of burning sugar in the brain and it's called amoloid.

[SPEAKER_02]: But amoloid is a substance that if not flushed from the brain during REM, it will begin to create plaques in the brain.

[SPEAKER_02]: And these amoloid plaques are the number one correlate with dementia at Alzheimer's.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they're finding correlations with the ability to manage and regulate emotions as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's been very interesting to see.

[SPEAKER_02]: Here people are seeing these terrible things.

[SPEAKER_02]: and it's a it's an innate part of their job, but they're also working in a shift work setting to where you can't separate those two things and it's a it's a it's a pretty negative combination if you think about what's happening is I have these traumatic experiences but I'm not allowed or might there's infrastructure my job doesn't allow me to physiologically cope with and heal from these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a double dose, and so you talk about how do we do what those on their end.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to draw attention to the medical community and you talk about the individuals listening to this podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: To make sure we don't get too distracted by what seems like the obvious answer that there may be some other, what was the term you used earlier, not circumstance.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, well, having the, just contact, that's the one.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, having the context is, is so important.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as for us, I feel like, I don't know, maybe this is more of a soft answer than a scientific answer, but I believe that there's gifts that are given to people who heal.

[SPEAKER_02]: When your mission and purpose is to help others and you get in the boat with them, whether it's a back injury or an emotional trauma, when you go there and you experience those things with them, there's an ability to cope with that that's greater than our own abilities because that there's a selfless motive to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: empathy that true connection and desire to understand people and the things that they're they're caused to suffer with.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's just a lot of strength in that that happens that I'm not sure if I have a scientific answer for it, but I know that there's a lot of power in that.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, that's great.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I know you're also a man of faith, done some mission work in your past.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like that comes back in your practice in the way that you deal with people.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I fear to see.

[SPEAKER_02]: Amen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, I have so much respect for people of any faith.

[SPEAKER_02]: And quite frankly, anybody who who has those moral values, it doesn't have to be religious, it doesn't have to be Christian, but when people say I have a higher cause and my desires to help people that are outside of my own selfish needs, everyone has access to that strength and I believe that's a real thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: Brad, thank you so much for being so gracious with your time experiencing me asking you all kinds of out-of-the-way questions, bringing up my driver and all other things that we talked about in this little timeframe we had together.

[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate your candor and also just the knowledge that you're able to share with the audience.

[SPEAKER_03]: Please tell us how to reach out to you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Someone who may have for us that are listening a lot of my audience or consultants.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we try to refer other disciplines because we don't know everything, especially when it's occupational injury.

[SPEAKER_03]: We want to refer to someone qualified.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: Please share your information with us.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, our website to look at Phoenix Healthcare, F-E-N-I-X with an F makes us a little bit easier to find, which is great.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have an Instagram Phoenix Tactical Healthcare, you can search.

[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things I was going to mention children that were super excited about is we're actually putting together a tactical health care summit that's going to be here in Arizona, just in the mesa area, the Arizona athletic grounds as a massive footprint of a sports facility, but we've put together a summit that's going to be coming here in the next six months that.

[SPEAKER_02]: we're inviting healthcare providers, first responders, you know, safety consultants, these individuals that are surrounded around how do we, how do we make the workplace safer?

[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely emphasized and focused toward, you know, our tactical athletes, our first responders, but that's one that anybody has any interest in that, feel free to reach out.

[SPEAKER_02]: The other one that

[SPEAKER_02]: we would love to share our knowledge with anybody.

[SPEAKER_02]: If somebody's want more, the business side of things and they don't understand the health care side of it and they say, you know, what is the industrial commission?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what are OGG guidelines?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what are all these medical infrastructure and terms?

[SPEAKER_02]: Or how do we know that we're getting good care?

[SPEAKER_02]: Anybody who had any question on any of those, they can reach out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if you've got an ability to post my email address, but that'd be one that I'd be more than happy to make public and anything we could do to help anyone with our knowledge we'd love to share.

[SPEAKER_03]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: Brad Hall is the man.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and telling us a lot about the Phoenix FE and I X-Gang.

[SPEAKER_03]: So don't forget that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's really cool, the tactical side.

[SPEAKER_03]: I like that angle there.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for being part of the show today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome job.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're welcome.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a wrap for today's safety show.

[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, safety isn't just about hard hats and caution signs.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's about business smarts too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining us on the safety consultant show with Sheldon primus.

[SPEAKER_00]: Until next time, stay safe, stay savvy, and keep consulting like a boss.

[SPEAKER_00]: Go get him.

[SPEAKER_00]: The views in the opinions expressed on this podcast or broadcast are those of the host in its guest and did not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: Examples of analysis discussed within the past hour only examples.

[SPEAKER_00]: It should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available, as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.

[SPEAKER_00]: Assumption made within this analysis are not reflective of the positions of the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: No part of this podcast of broadcast may be reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical electronic recording or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast of broadcast Sheldon Primus.

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