Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

. Good morning, Paul.

Good morning.

How are you doing?

Happy Friday.

Yeah.

Doing well.

We got a nice hot sunny
day here in the Bay Area.

Now you're in the extra
hot part over in the East.

I'm in the East Bay.

Yeah.

It's it's quite exotic here.

Like we walk around, we
go for an evening walk.

Yeah.

And there's like a plum tree, on the
area, the like small little like patch of

dirt between the road and the sidewalk.

Sure.

There grows a plum tree.

Yeah.

Full of plums.

Wow.

Amazing.

We just stopped and ate five plums each.

Wow.

And they're good.

And they're great.

They're so sweet.

Wow.

It was nuts.

I'm always amazed with urban or suburban
trees like that, that the animals, like

how is it that squirrels and birds or
whatever haven't just been like I'll, this

is what I will be doing for the next week
or whatever is eating all these plums.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's
like not that hard to be a wild animal.

There's actually just like a
lot of food options available.

Yeah.

Maybe it's just that.

For wild animals in this area, food
acquisition is not the hardest part.

Oh yeah, that's not the hard part.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, there must be raccoons
who are would be all about that.

But I guess, are you picking them?

Obviously, you're picking
these out of the tree.

A bunch of them are on the ground, too.

But yeah, I'm picking the ones I'm eating.

I'm picking right off the tree.

Yeah, because it's like a
Garden of Eden situation.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

And then they're so delicious, Tom.

Yeah.

And just and they're like that
size where you want to just pop

the whole thing in your mouth.

But, so I did that for a few of them,
and I accidentally swallowed the pits.

I was about to say there
are pits in those, okay?

Yep.

Okay, you just swallowed them.

Wow.

And that, so A plumpet is I don't know
how big they are on these small worms.

I'm worried.

Okay.

I'm, I have the same sequence of
thoughts you're about to go through,

have gone through my head several times.

Okay.

We'll find out.

How big a plumpet are we talking?

Do you have any sense from the ones
you didn't pop in your mouthhole?

Like it!

Pretty big for the size
of a quarter or a dime.

Definitely a quarter.

Yeah.

A quarter.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's a large, that's a large thing.

No as I swallowed it.

So I swallowed a small one first
and that was like, Oh, okay.

That's fine.

Ha.

Yeah.

And then I swallowed a big one
as it was like in my throat.

I was like, Oh no, it's
just going down slowly.

Like the Titanic.

I say, yeah.

Did you I'll update you
all in the next podcast.

Okay?

Yes, please.

I feel like the only thing that comes to
mind for me are like childhood warnings

about if you swallow seeds, then a
tree will grow inside you or Yeah.

Or whatever is, yeah.

Did you grow up with warnings about
what will happen if you swallow

seeds in, was it the same thing?

Si similar style jokes, but Yeah.

I'm more worried that the,
just the diameter of that

thing is gonna be painful.

And what I know about my.

Nether regions.

That's what I'm worried about.

Yes.

I okay.

I wish you the best.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

Maybe I Was learning about the
acidity of stomach acid recently.

Oh, yeah, thanks.

Our stomachs are oppressive
dissolvers of Biological matter Wow,

I wouldn't be shocked if but isn't
this like an evolutionary race?

Isn't the whole point of a pit that it
is supposed to survive stomach acid?

And that's why it's a pit because
you're supposed to, yeah, this is

supposed to happen and I'm supposed
to take a shit in my garden and

grow another plum tree, right?

But I guess it's whoever's
evolution catches up first, yeah.

Yeah.

I wonder, I guess a relevant
question would be how acidic are

our stomachs by comparison to the
other animals whose job it is to, I

don't know if humans are really the
evolutionary that plums have in mind.

I felt very natural eating
those plums by the roadside.

I felt like this is what I
was supposed to be doing.

Yeah, you're an animal.

I'm a bear in the woods.

I've evolved to do this.

Yeah.

It felt extremely natural.

Okay.

And therefore, the pit situation
must also be extremely natural.

Wow.

This is, you are Marcus
Aurelius himself here.

Yeah.

I'm Emerson over here.

Everything is natural.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, I think that's true.

Yeah.

Okay.

So right.

What would Marcus say
about this situation?

Let go of your fear about what
happens next because it was, yeah.

Yeah.

It's all just a part of the normal
workings of the world or whatever.

He would certainly say that.

Yeah.

I think he might say it
better than that or worse.

Yeah.

That's true.

Okay.

I had just a sort of quick shower
thought about this podcast.

I just was thinking about, It, we
have, I don't know how many episodes

of this podcast at this point.

I think we're, we might be approaching
30 or something, 20 to 30 probably.

And I was just thinking back on
how my perception of stoicism and

Marcus and this particular text has
changed since the very beginning.

We had this, at the outset, you
were somebody who I didn't know

anything about this philosophy
and you had told me about it.

And I just wanted us to check in.

I wanted to ask you that question,
basically, how has this podcast

changed the way you think?

About stoicism or Marcus Aurelius,
can you remember back to the

time before we read this text?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think I actually, so I
think at the beginning, I remember

we had that early conversation.

You were like, I think stoicism
is stupid because it's you're

supposed to be a rock in the storm
and that's not how people operate.

Yeah.

And I was like I actually think
stoicism might be a little

bit more nuanced than that.

And having read.

As much as we've read, I'm
also surprised by how much

more nuanced stoicism has been.

It really doesn't feel
that radical at all to me.

It feels practical and obvious.

Yes.

But just aged, like just, it
just sounds like regular advice.

But like from a guy who
lived 2, 000 years ago.

So it's weird.

But other than that,
it's like pretty normal.

I agree.

I like the word or the phrasing
you just used about being less

radical than I expected it to be.

I think that is certainly true.

And maybe it's just that we've
become acclimated or something.

Yeah, exactly.

We've gotten so used to it.

We're freaks now, but I agree with that.

I had this concept, I think, So yes, I,
for sure, I don't feel as weird about

it, and in fact I would say I've just
straight up done a 180 or something from

thinking that stoicism, just as a word.

Had a negative, has a negative connotation
in my mind to, I think it has a kind

of positive connotation in my mind as a
result of reading this text, basically

for the reason you just said I think I was
also over indexed on one particular thing

that you had taught me, I think, long
ago about stoicism, which is like these,

This entry, I think that starts like the
second chapter where Marcus says wake up

in the morning and imagine that everything
horrible is going to happen to you.

Yes.

That way, whatever.

That I think is consistent with Stoic
teaching, but it's, I was expecting

the book was going to be full of that.

Yeah.

And it hasn't really been,
or at least that hasn't been

the way I've experienced it.

It's been actually more, as you say,
practical and mundane and obvious.

I think that if it really was.

spend all your time thinking about the
terrible thing that might happen to you.

That would feel radical in the
way that I didn't want it to.

And it hasn't done that, which I guess
has been a pleasant surprise for me.

Yeah.

I think we it's funny
that you say pleasant.

I, I enjoy the more radical things
because they're It's more exciting.

It's more shocking, but it's it's like I
gave you the trailer and we, we saw all

the funny one liners punch lines, and now
we're watching the full drawn out movie.

Yes.

Which is at times a little wordy.

It's gonna be repetitive, but I think
to your original point, I think I'm

also enjoying some of the nuance
and subtlety that the full length

film here has that the doesn't.

Capture actually, and I'm
liking it more than I.

Thought I was going to
maybe based on the trailer.

Okay.

Okay, cool.

Yeah.

I like that analogy.

Okay, cool.

Just wanted to check in and say
that's, that was just the sort of

overall thought I've had about the
trajectory of, I've enjoyed it.

We've had plenty of conversations at the
beginning of episodes like this, where

we've talked about using this philosophy
or applying it in our own lives.

I am certainly doing that too, but
I think just as a sort of 30, 000

foot, what do I think about the text?

That's the Evolution.

I've gone through.

Yeah.

Speaking of that, I've also been surprised
by the writing itself and the amount

of interpretation we've had to do.

And like how every time there's
the spectrum of how much

credit we want to give Marcus.

And you could read it
in such different ways.

You could read it without
giving him credit.

And this guy's an idiot and you could
read it by giving him a ton of credit

and be like, wow, he's so deep and
meditative and thoughtful and a genius.

And it's entirely up to the reader.

Yeah.

Like he's so everything is so
abstracted that it's, there's

so much in the reading itself.

So yeah, I think that's, that
actually makes for a good podcast.

And I think that makes for
an interesting reading, but.

Yeah it's, I wonder basically Tom,
if you ranked at this point, you

and I read like four chapters.

In 30 minutes.

Yeah.

I wonder like four sections or whatever.

I wonder if we're starting to
qualify as some of the most in depth

analysts of this text of all time.

I'm sure.

I'm sure there's a dozen, PhD students.

Yes, exactly.

There must be PhD students or whatever,
who have spent their, who has spent years

pouring on really like more than we do.

Oh, yeah.

And probably in the original language too.

Not in this translated for the
modern English reader language.

Fine.

Okay.

When we're done, we'll
go and do another loop.

Okay.

Yeah.

Think about how, there, when we
started this test, there were

so many translations of it.

Think about how much work each
translator probably put into reading.

Yeah.

Okay.

But differently.

Is there any book that you and I have
ever read in our lives that we've read

as closely as we've read this one?

Oh yeah.

No, I don't think so.

No, thanks.

Not me.

Yeah, not me.

So yeah, no need to compare ourselves
to other people But for the purposes

of our own life, yes, it's the closest
close reading we have ever done.

That's wise.

Yeah, okay Let's do it.

Oh, yes on the subject of close reading.

Let's do some close reading number 19 here
in book 7 carried through existence as

through rushing rapids All bodies which
are sprung from nature and cooperate with

it as our limbs do with each other time
has swallowed a chrysippus a Socrates

and an epic Titus many times over for
epic Titus read any person and anything

that last sentence is almost

okay but my initial read is that it's
insulting to epic Titus the thing he

said at the end there but maybe I don't
understand that last sentence yeah I feel

like there's something we're missing That
makes, do you know who Epic Titus is?

I think he's another of the
major stoics if I'm not mistaken,

he is yeah, that sounds right.

The guy who people say is ACT or like he's
the other one who people say is one of the

major contributors to the body of thought.

Okay.

He's, yeah, he's a stoicism guy basically.

Okay.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it's weird that for Epic team.

Do you read that the way I read it where?

He's saying, okay, time has swallowed
a Chrysippus, a Socrates, and an

Epictetus many times over, which like,
in that way, he's building up Epictetus.

He's on the same list as
Socrates, but then he says,

for Epictetus, read any person.

Meaning, that to me means, and
you could replace Epictetus

with anyone, essentially.

Epictetus, not important.

He's just an example of a random guy.

That's how I read a person.

What he's saying in that sense.

Yeah.

Is that how you parse it as well?

I read it as a little bit less personal.

Okay.

I read it as his weird way.

Like he likes to contradict himself.

Like he likes to write stuff down
and then catch himself on some

edge case and then feel the need to
explain the edge case in a way that

I think is unnecessary, but yeah.

So I think he's listing people and
then it just so happens that the last

person in his list, Yes, he wants to
clarify that the list could go on.

Yes.

This list is arbitrary.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay I like your reading
better than my reading.

I think that's better than

Yes, like a weird potshot and epic
Titus at the end where he's Yeah, time

to swallow these great guys, but also
it's actually that guy screw him He

could be yeah, that one could be anyone
but I think yeah, I think he's just

saying they don't have the concept of X.

I think he's trying to say Chrysippus
Socrates and X, where X can be

Epictetus or any other number of people.

Yes.

And he's just belaboring that idea.

Yeah.

Okay.

Fine.

Yes.

Okay.

I dig with that.

The other thing I, Clock here
in this entry is the he's really

into this limbs analogy recently.

It was a couple episodes now But he was
like he talked about the way that we

are like limbs of the world or whatever
And we like we work together and it's

but it's more than just being parts
because we're like, yeah In some ways

independent, but in some ways cooperative.

We're not just threads in a fabric
doesn't do us justice because that's

not like active and independent enough.

Limbs are a good analogy.

I like it too.

I've never thought about that.

Let's not analogy an analogy we use today.

Yeah.

But it's a good one because on
their own they're useless together.

They can do a lot.

Yeah, my problem with it is that
there you can only have four.

Yeah, I want to extend it
beyond four, but whatever.

Yeah, he's imagining.

Like you could have more than four.

We don't have more than four.

Okay, I get, yeah, but then we're
getting into other questions.

He's building monsters.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, immediately I
think of Indian Whatever.

Eight limbs goddess.

Yeah.

I feel like there's a guy like that
maybe in Greek or Roman mythology.

You have the Hydra, which is
not limbs, but it's heads in me.

I wonder if there, is
there a lots of arms guy?

I don't know if he's a good guy.

I feel like he might be a monster.

Yeah.

50 heads, 100 arms.

Hector Toncaris.

No problem, Tom.

Okay.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Great.

Here.

All right.

We got him.

Let's just say, yeah, exactly.

We got up.

Marcus was familiar with the concept that
a guy might have more than four limbs.

So that he was like, that's what we are.

He saw that guy, whatever his
name was, I was like, that's us.

Pretty great analogy.

Yeah.

Pretty awesome.

I dig it.

Yep.

We're rushing through.

Okay, here we are, like, little
canoes in the Grand Rapids.

Yeah, I like that.

We're out, we don't, we
have this fast experience.

We can't really, we're, we maybe
have a small degree of control over

what happens to us, but mostly no.

I wish you went deep on it.

Cause, cause if you, have you spent time.

Looking at these rapids.

It's just the most terrifying.

Like it's horrible.

You just you really I think
people do this for fun apparently,

but you get in a little boat.

Yeah, I've never done this, but
I know what you're talking about.

It's just horrific.

And if you fall out, like you're gonna hit
a rock underwater with your head and die.

That's those are the stakes.

Yes.

And that's why it's so much fun.

Because haha I'm not dead yet.

Yes.

But yeah, so he said, I think
that's also very strong analogy.

And he Squishes them together.

Yeah, you go pretty deep on both But
so we are carried through existence

like these little, boats in a rapid
Yeah, and then we're sprung from

nature to cooperate with it Like limbs.

All bodies.

Yes.

I agree.

I think if I had like a red pen
and I was Marcus's editor, I'm like

underlining that first sentence
and being like, explore this.

Yes.

Explore.

Push all, push everything else into
another entry and just do the rushing

rapids thing where you could make
several more sentences out of that.

Yeah.

This is why it's not a,
it's not, it's written to be

written, not written to be read.

Yeah.

But yeah.

I agree with that.

I think another way I've been explaining
it in my own head is like, it has the.

the form more of a guy's internal thoughts
stream of consciousness e kind of thing

not totally stream of conscious there's
still like logic present but it's not like

a thoroughly well constructed argument or
exploration of any one thing in particular

it's just like he's touching on these
four ideas in his head yeah and using

in some cases a very minimal amount of
language to express an idea just so he

can express his connection to another
yeah Time swallowing is another yes.

Yeah.

Each of these concepts is,
has a lot of potential depth.

We just skim over the top.

And so what we do is we, over the course
of this book, gently touch that topic.

That's right.

That's 40 different times at
the depth of one sentence.

That's right.

And then we'll come back to that later
as with every other idea I'm introducing.

Don't worry.

I'll say it again later in
another, Combination of ideas,

but will I dig deep on it?

If you're lucky

number 20, my only fear is doing
something contrary to human nature.

The wrong thing, the wrong
way, we're at the wrong time.

Okay, this is a, returning back
to our big picture conversation

about Marcus and Stoicism.

This is one of the contradictions
I haven't totally resolved

yet with him, right?

This is, there's something
contradictory here.

Where he, so much of it is
hey dude, just enjoy the ride.

You can't mess it up on some level.

And then he says, I'm
terrified of messing it up.

The part that I'm also confused about
is I can never tell if human nature

is the ideal or the like, sometimes
he goes back and I feel like sometimes

he talks about how human nature is
to count sheep or whatever, which

is some lowly, terrible thing to do.

Yeah.

But if you can, if you can count
humans, then you're way better.

So yeah.

Who's human like I think he's referring
here to human nature like it's whatever

the ultimate the correct thing That
certainly seems to be the implication.

But yes, I think that's a really
good point that it does sometimes

Yes, the phrase human nature kind
of has both of those implications.

It's human.

Yeah, to air is We use that as like
urgent natural urges or whatever.

Yeah.

And why we mess things up, why
we do bad stuff or whatever.

But yes, he has this, ah, okay it's,
this is not a satisfying thing with

this book, but I've, my brain wonders
if there's a tricky translation thing

that's going on here where they had
multiple words for human nature, but

they, we all just translate them to human
nature, but they connotative differences

about like true human nature versus.

Yeah.

Practiced human nature or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah, but let's give him
the benefit of the doubt.

Okay, assume he means
Elevated human nature.

He means optimal, yeah actualized human
beings and how they operate It's only

weird to fear like because it's such a
weird concept because you're gonna fear

it because but if you do it That's it.

It's over.

You can't undo the thing you did.

And so right there's no agency over
that it's just like horrible Either

you mess it up once and you did it.

You did something
contrary to human nature.

Yeah.

It's such a weird thing to fear.

Okay.

Being in the spirit, as we always do when
we're criticizing him of being generous

to him, here's I'm going to step away from
this sentence and then come back to it.

He's got this concept, of like.

All of life is either things we can
control or things we can't control.

That's like how I see
him in the big picture.

And so there are these
things we can control.

We life is in these tiny little
moments of choice that we make over

the small things that we can control.

Largely stuff like how we react
to something that's presented

to us or how we choose to treat
people in some, in certain moments.

And so that's it.

That's the important thing.

And he, this philosophy that he's
articulating over the course of these

pages, he thinks is about how to
in those moments where we actually

do have control over stuff, make
the right choice on some level.

And it's about yeah, doing
it in accordance with our

broader mission and whatever.

That I think is very generously what he
means by human nature here, that it's

like living in accordance with the best
ways that humans can live, which is.

To do it like generously and
unselfishly and all this stuff.

And what he's saying is, I'm
scared of not doing that.

I'm scared of being, which would be human
nature of the other kind, basically.

Oh, I see.

Scared.

Oh so you think, oh, I see.

So you're reading it as he's really
expressing some vulnerability here.

The sentence starts with, my only fear.

My only my only fear.

Yes, okay, or he's doing a flex.

Yeah, he's saying I
think he's doing a flex.

I'm not scared of Whatever.

Yeah, like barbarians don't scare me.

The only thing that scares me is I wish
he had phrased the sentence But let me

give you another sentence and you tell
me if you read it the same way, okay?

My only job is to act in accordance
to human nature you know the right

thing the right way the right time.

I read that as pretty similar
Yeah, I feel like it's such a

much more empowering statement.

You're not a victim in that statement.

You're the hero you couldn't yes
You're like, that's your only job.

Hey, the world is crashing around
me, like all these problems.

But I have one job.

My job is not to control, the sun
going down, the weather patterns.

My job is just to do the right thing.

Yeah, so much better than I'm
afraid that something I might do

is at the wrong time the wrong way.

Yes.

I agree.

I prefer your phrasing of that for sure.

The phrase that way it's liberating.

Yeah.

Like you only have one job, dude.

It's pretty easy.

Actually.

Yeah.

In theory, your job is hard.

And this way, phrase this way,
it sounds like every decision

he makes is this dangerous.

Yes, exactly.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yes.

I'm with you.

I guess in this.

Yeah.

Again, I guess this is how he
feels reading him generously.

Yeah, there's maybe not in his eyes.

There may not be that much of a
difference between the things we just

said that the only thing he fears
is not doing his job as it were.

And I think, these are the,
this is a soft underbelly.

He's not publishing this.

He's, he really is, I think, afraid of
dying and having his legacy be that he

was, had low integrity or something.

And so he just, I think he
probably does live life this way.

Yeah.

I just, I do feel bad for the guy.

Like I do think that

he probably shouldn't
have been the emperor.

Like you probably who should
have, I know, but yeah.

Someone who's like a Caesar, like
really wanted the job, right?

Yeah.

And let him do the job.

Yeah.

And then we'll stab him
when he gets too frisky.

But this guy did not wanna do the job.

Yeah.

He really didn't.

And he tried to explain it and
they made him do it anyway.

And they made him do it anyway.

And like here he is yeah.

Suffering . Do you think he,

I guess part of me suspects
that he might have like.

somehow secretly enjoyed it
or like his persona seems

almost like no, don't not me.

Yeah, I'm not I'm no better than you guys.

Don't make me be the emperor But really
in the back of his mind he is thinking

no, actually I am the best But part
of what makes me the best is that i'm

the kind of guy who would say no, not
me You i'm no better than you guys.

I do think that's what happened
initially And then when he

actually got the job, he's Oh
crap, he genuinely doesn't want it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

That scans for me.

But I don't think if you're writing this
in your private journal, I think there

is real fear and kind of insecurity.

being expressed here in a way
that makes me think it's genuine.

I don't I think if you're writing this in
your private journal, you are not having a

good time in your day job, yeah, I agree.

Although also, how many people in the
scheme of human history or whatever

would have this kind of process for
dealing with their shitty job to write

contemplative and meditative about it?

It's That's true.

He's exceptional.

Yeah, that's true.

So sorry not to pick on
my wife, but she journals.

Okay.

She has an intense job and she journals.

Okay, great.

She's also exceptional.

She's also exceptional, but You can
probably even hear me say this, but like

her journal entries are very, they're
very like, sometimes I read them, right?

Because she shows them to me and they're
like, here's a list of what I did today.

Like here's a list of what I'd
like my schedule to be tomorrow.

It's not this.

They're more literal.

Yes.

That's what I'm saying.

This is hard to do.

This is, it's weird to do this.

Yeah.

It's evidence of a mind that is
seriously at work beyond just the

requisite tasks for doing the job.

He's not bored by, or it doesn't
seem like maybe he is bored.

Maybe he's extremely bored and he
needs to do this, but he's at least

evincing that he cares quite a bit
about how it is he goes about his job.

Yeah.

And so he wants to figure
out how to do it really well.

Yeah.

He's still a little bit of a cipher.

I agree with the sort of bead we
put on him of he's at least not

having just a grand old time.

Yeah.

He's somewhere between bored
and really doesn't want the

responsibility and whatever else.

It makes me think of that YouTube video
lecture thing we watched long ago on

this thing about where the professor guy
called him the loneliest man in the world.

But this one, this entry feels like pretty
solid evidence contributing to that.

Yeah.

On that spectrum I, I do have this
mental model of Marcus just being like

this concept of a philosopher king.

People seem to like that, but I
actually, I see that as negative.

Like being a king or an emperor or
whatever is not, it's a, it's very,

there's a lot of practical work involved.

I would imagine like you want someone
with a nice solid head on their

shoulders who can put things behind them.

Yeah.

I just don't feel like this
guy's cut out for the job.

Oh, interesting.

I feel like I don't, what's
hard for me to know is how.

what he's like when he's
actually executing his job.

If he's able to put the philosophizing
aside and do the job and then

save the philosophizing for when
he's home writing in his journal.

I think in that case, do you
think anyone can do that?

Do you think someone who writes
like this could go to their day job

and just be like, All right, yep,
send these two legions over here.

We'll go ahead and increase the tax
rate by three percent over there.

Like I feel like someone who writes like
this must also be like a I don't know

just kind of like a a piece of work just
a piece of work in the day job, too.

I don't know.

It's a really fair question I totally
hear what you're saying Yes I can

absolutely imagine the annoying version
of Marcus who's presented with a crisis

and then he like strokes his chin
And he's oh, what about my legacy?

Yes What would my forefathers do?

Sepetitis.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I can imagine the shitty version
of him like that Exactly maybe scholars

or whatever, history scholars know
how he was remembered, but it doesn't,

given how great everybody mostly
seems to think he was, it doesn't seem

like he was that bad, but then I, who
knows historical legacy over that.

Yeah.

It's always like who who was the
next did the subsequent emperors

need to draw their line back to him?

And that's the, that's, that determines
whether or not he's viewed positively.

Yeah.

Yes, there's no way for us
to get to the bottom of this.

But yes, I agree that I think we
have to our mental models should

include, to me, it includes both
the possibility that he was annoying

and pretentious and philosophical.

And also, I think it includes at
least some chance that he was actually

pretty good at executing his job
and just was a remarkable guy who

then went home and thought about
it philosophically or whatever.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right.

What about if Biden?

If Biden, R.

10 years, whatever he has 10 more
good years and then he passed away.

And then his family publishes his
private journal and it turns out he was

writing stuff like this every night.

How would that make you feel?

That would be remarkable.

I think I would,

you would respect him more.

Yes.

I would, you wouldn't, I think I would
actually going through this example.

I think I would too, which makes me
lean more in the positive direction

of maybe Marcus was all right.

Yeah.

It also makes me like the fact that
the entries are written as briefly.

And yeah, if it was like, if this was a.

2000 page treatise on philosophy
that yeah, a ton of that's

right, research and philosophical
thought I would feel differently.

But the fact that I'd
be like, do your job.

Yeah, exactly.

The fact that it's almost feels
scribbled down and Oh, he's just spent.

He spent all day today just
polishing these three sentences

in his brain or whatever.

That makes me think, Yeah, he might
be doing a good job at his job.

Cool.

Yeah, cool.

I agree.

Okay.

Number 21.

I hope that we discover that, by the way.

Yes.

Wouldn't that be nice?

Yes.

Yeah.

2, 000 years from now, they're
reading Joe Biden's meditations.

That would be lovely.

Yeah.

The last good emperor.

Yeah.

Boy.

That would be especially remarkable
for a guy like Joe Biden, who I

think is a very pragmatic, practical
politician for the most part.

Yeah, if Barack Obama did
it, I would be like, okay.

Yeah, that makes sense.

If Joe Biden did it, I
would be like, whoa, anyway.

All right.

Number 21 feels like it's
on the related theme here.

Number 21 close to forgetting
it all close to being forgotten.

Which is an entry that if you told
me that we'd already read it four

times while reading this book, I
would have said that might be low.

But Yeah, this could be a, this could be
a sign in, in your bedroom or whatever.

It's short enough, but
it's a bit bleak, right?

It's a bit bleak, yeah.

Yeah.

And I this is

this kind of entry is the one that
makes me remember that he's the

emperor and is not like regular people.

I feel like yeah, regular people
throughout all time have taken this for

granted, essentially, but when you're
the emperor, you have to deal with it.

Yeah.

I that's, that is one theme that we just
do not understand we think we understand

being an emperor or whatever, and we
really don't because of this concept of,

I agree, fame and immortality that they,
he seems to be really struggling with.

Yeah.

Yes.

It puts distance between us and him.

Yeah.

But.

I will give him some, again, getting
my red pen out here or whatever.

Bonus points for this is one
of the more concise, nice

ways you've said this, Marcus.

It's poetic in, in English, I think,
basically the way this thing is phrased.

Yeah.

So much of all.

Yeah.

And yeah, maybe that's just
points to the translator.

I get it, Marcus, but
also just chill out, man.

Yeah.

You're you're on the right track, dude.

You're so much of a, yeah.

You're doing fine.

Yeah.

You're, yeah.

You're grappling with this concept.

Great.

I think.

Yeah.

And then, yeah.

Entries like this make it feel
like for some reason you have

not satisfied yourself with your
own understanding of the issue.

Yeah.

All right.

We're at time.

Okay.

Shall we wrap it up there?

You think?

Let's do one more.

Okay, let's do one more.

Number 22.

To feel affection for people, even when
they make mistakes, is uniquely human.

You can do it if you simply recognize
that they're human too, that they act

out of ignorance, against their will,
and that you'll both be dead before long.

Against their will.

And, above all, that they
haven't really hurt you.

They haven't diminished
your ability to choose.

Nice encapsulation of Marcus
at multiple extremes here.

On the one hand, I always enjoy the ones
where he's being sympathetic to people.

Yeah, I love it, yeah.

And he's not only forgiving people
here for making mistakes, but he's

actually saying to feel affection
for people who make mistakes.

Yeah, that's true.

Which, which I extra like, but then
he says, and he starts so great.

He says, okay start by recognizing
that they're human too.

This is my favorite part as well.

I love it because he uses the word simply.

Yeah, so it's like simply recognize and
then the sentence could end that they're

human too period that could be it Yes,
in which way no, that's not enough.

Very nice.

No, there's four things You
need to recognize one of them

and it's just four things.

You need to simply recognize simply
Yes, one of them is that they're human

too, which like totally check 100.

I'm on my red pen is underlining this
part yeah That they act out of ignorance.

Okay, we've gotten very pedantic
and condescending now, Marcus.

We're saying that if anyone
else makes a mistake, you know

better, and they're idiots.

Which, okay, fine.

But then he really goes off
the cliff, against their will.

Against their will.

What does that mean?

I think, okay I don't think I know what
he means by that, which is not what really

what they what we mean in the modern sense
by it for us against their will would

mean that somebody else is forcing them
to make this mistake, which is not, it

makes no sense in this context, right?

No.

So I think he means against
more like against their nature.

Like we have humans constantly make these
mistakes where we get in our own way.

There's a thing we're trying to do, but
we just step on our own feet or whatever.

And he's so basically I read that
as they act out of ignorance.

And if they knew if they
had more information, they

would have acted differently.

That's how I'm reading it.

They're confused is what both
of those effectively mean.

Yeah.

And the number four, a lot of
things we have to recognize.

Okay.

There's two more though.

One is that you'll both be
dead before long, which.

I think does help with having
affection for other human beings.

I agree with that, Marcus.

Yeah, I guess it's a lot.

I guess it's good to remember every
time someone makes a mistake to

look at both of you and be like,
we're both going to be dead soon.

We're going to be like,
it feels very extreme.

If you feel like you're going to stop at
number two, you can stop at number one,

but you could have even stopped at number
three, but then he has to go all the way.

It's yeah, it's also redundant with one.

I feel yeah, we're both human kind of
has this implication of we're mortal.

We're not, we're not geniuses.

We have a limited
understanding of the universe.

But then he says, that's not enough.

Let's make this really explicit.

We'll both be dead soon.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then the last one, above all that
they haven't really hurt you, which

again, I'm always Oh, is that true?

I guess his definition of mistake includes
that they haven't really hurt you.

But I think the last
sentence is clarifying.

They haven't diminished your ability
to choose, which is like his concept

is that's the only way to hurt you.

that if you can't make decisions in
the world, then you've been hurt.

Which, he's pretty consistent
with that philosophy, so I dig it.

Yeah.

Although, so frequently the reason,
like, when we, when people do, Make

mistakes or things that we don't
like it because they diminish our

ability, like certainly reduce the
availability of certain choices for us.

Now I can't do X or whatever.

His argument would be that if
you don't have the option to

choose, that's just your choice.

Those are your choices.

Like you can still choose.

Your options are more limited.

Yes.

They've changed your options, but you
still have the opportunity to choose.

And the only thing that matters is
your Yeah, you doing things, according

to your human nature or whatever.

So that's fine.

So if it just so happens that I don't have
I only have two options instead of three,

like I still have the ability to choose.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's fair.

You're right.

He's not saying they haven't
diminished your choices.

He's saying they haven't
diminished your ability to choose.

Yeah.

It's a very you're right.

You were right to call out the word
affection because I think if it

was just like to feel to forgive
people when they make a mistake,

you need to do these five things.

It'd be pretty intense, but
to feel affection for people.

Yes, even when they make mistakes.

It is.

It is a big deal.

Yeah.

It's hard to do that Yeah,

it's nice that he's trying even trying
to do that again We have this concept

of him as the Emperor who has to deal
with people, you know Adjudicating

situations where people are at each
other's throats or whatever and he's

not just okay How can I deal with this
justly and then leave these idiots to

their selves and get them out of my face?

He's okay, how can I?

Go a step beyond that and feel love
for my countrymen or whatever, even

though they're being impossible idiots.

Yeah.

It's very deep, but this is the
kind of entry that makes me a little

worried about him and his day job.

Because it can be useful to feel like
binary, a binary feeling about people.

Like just oh, this person is bad.

I'm gonna just fire them.

Like it's just it's, sometimes you don't
have time to feel affection for everyone.

It just, you just got to make some
decisions and there are good people and

bad people and that's okay Yeah, I feel
if his job was to be a philosopher then

great, but his job is To run an empire.

Yes I think that's a good point that
it's I wonder what the role of feeling

affection for these people was in his
actual Yeah, was this just something

he was doing idly as a hobby after
like when the day was done It's

like I wonder how I could feel, you
know These people have been really

occupying my brain and i'd like to
feel some more affection towards them.

Yeah Was he trying to use this
as a part of his process for yeah

making decisions or whatever?

Yeah, like there's a traitor, there's
like a turncoat and like you have to

decimate people You have to, otherwise
you're not setting an example.

That's the job.

Yeah.

And so yeah, so is he
doing that is on the job?

Is he like, oh, I feel so bad
for them Or is he just late

at night scribbling this down?

Yeah.

Yep There's no way for us to know but
I agree with you I guess I mean there's

something almost magical about the way
that he constantly puts in this puts

us Yeah, this at the beginning of the
episode It's so much of this reading is

about what we decide to think about Marcus
Yeah, I guess I am remarking on how good

he is at constantly putting us in these
ambiguous situations of this could be

a good thing, Marcus, or it might not.

Yeah.

No, 22 is deep.

You could say 22 to a, to an adult in
today's world, and it would be insightful.

Yes, absolutely.

I agree.

It's timeless.

And it's, you could say it to
yourself over and over again.

It's something that's, it's very
hard to learn this, and it's good.

Yeah.

It's solid.

Yeah.

You'll both be dead before long.

And they act out of ignorance against
their will is a little a little

condescending for the average human.

It's like the 18 year old version of it.

Like it's the, yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Yes.

And there's a leveled up version of
it, but it's a good template for sure.

Yeah.

Like a sophisticated thought.

Yeah.

All right.

Awesome.

I think we should wrap it up
there, but I enjoyed that episode.

I think.

Me too.

Still plenty of wisdom to be found in
Marcus's contradictory, complicated deal.

Agreed.

Thanks, Tom.

All right.

Bye.

See you soon.

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