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What started as a lifeline in our text thread—full of parenting questions, vent sessions, “what would you do?” moments, and honest advice—has now become Group Chat IRL. In this episode, we each bring one real-life question to the table, just like we do in our group chat. From navigating tricky family dynamics and awkward social encounters to supporting our kids through friendship drama, nothing is off-limits. We even dive into the big one: should your child be allowed to participate in a group chat, and how do you set healthy boundaries around it? It’s the space where we lean on each other, laugh a lot, and figure it out together. Come for the relatable convo, stay for the wisdom, and feel like you're right here with us.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.758)
Welcome to the Shrink Down. So the whole concept of this podcast really came from our friendship. And a lot of our friendship has to do with our text thread. So we don't live in the same city. Well, two of us do, but the rest of us don't. And the way that we communicate most often is through text. And so when we were thinking of ideas for today, Lauren, throughout the idea of us kind of sharing what our text thread would look like. So today we're going to each be throwing out either something, a question that we have for the group or something that's come up that we want to share our thoughts with the group.
and we'll spend 10 minutes each just kind of going around and chatting. So before we get into that, let's do our four minute phase. Anybody want to start us off today?
Teri (00:39.336)
I'll go.
Lauren (00:39.382)
I can. Oh, I'll go then, Terry. So in terms of four minute faves, I was I was actually thinking because this is like we're kind of gearing up for a break prior to summer. So was sort of thinking about something I could share that people might kind of get into over the summer. And so I wanted to share the television show that we're currently watching with the boys. And as we've all discussed before, it's really, really hard to find like family.
Wilhelmina (00:42.238)
Thanks
Lauren (01:06.912)
friendly television shows that like appeal to different ages and developmental stages. We recently over the last few weeks have gotten into the Amazing Race and I know it's been on forever, but that's why I wanted to share it because actually every single season is on Paramount Plus and it is so good. It's so entertaining. The format does not change. It is the same guy from season one until now. He looks exactly the same, but it's like
Wilhelmina (01:23.732)
nice.
Teri (01:33.044)
Did you start at season one?
Lauren (01:35.176)
No, we started with the current season and actually we have now backed up and are doing like 36 and like so because the boys have enjoyed it but we figured we might as well do more current seasons right now versus the one from 2000. Just from the way it like looks right right but it is really good it's like problem solving teamwork like it's it's incredibly PG there's no language anything like that.
Teri (01:37.406)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (01:52.222)
It would look so dated, I bet.
Lauren (02:04.47)
They show you different parts of the world, which has been really fun to kind of explore with the teams. And so we've had a lot of fun. And I just figured that would be a great, if you needed something as a family that you knew you could watch together during the summer months when you have days at home or things like that, it's a great one to get into. But yeah, no, started, the current season is season 37. It's been on since 2000 or 2001 or something like that. So like what, about two a year, they kind of average or one every, I don't know.
Vanessa (02:26.528)
wow.
my goodness.
Lauren (02:33.928)
nine months, whatever that averages to. It's so good though. Very well done, super fun, and everybody can watch it. We were up at the lake with my parents a couple of weekends ago, and they just jumped right in with us, and we're watching an episode. So yeah, highly recommend. Yeah, Terry, what about you? Yeah, do one. Yeah. like this one.
Teri (02:35.475)
Wow.
Teri (02:50.208)
I like that. All right. It's top of my list. think my kids would like that. Mine is my favorite flavor of Sparklet and water as I see you, Lauren, drinking. So I have been trying, this goes also down the rabbit hole of chemicals and whatever. So apparently the best temporarily for now, as of today,
Vanessa (02:50.286)
Cool, amazing race.
Wilhelmina (02:56.829)
Mmm.
Vanessa (02:59.67)
you
Lauren (03:08.982)
trust me, yours is better. Yeah.
Vanessa (03:08.984)
You
Vanessa (03:13.73)
Sure.
Teri (03:14.386)
It's better to have things sweetened with actual fruit and juice. So they say Spindrift and Sanzo or Sanzu, S-A-N-Z-U, S-A-N-Z-O is best as a, or just plain Topo Chico, you know, and add lime or lemons. But they say the other brands when it says natural, whatever's added, apparently the way the FDA classifies, yes, they're natural chemicals. That's actually
Wilhelmina (03:15.223)
I'm
Lauren (03:25.782)
I don't know that one.
I love turbo cheek muscles.
Lauren (03:35.964)
it's chemical. Yes.
Vanessa (03:38.222)
They're natural chemicals.
Teri (03:43.136)
sweetening them. the best, so you're supposed to use all, you know, since it's actually based using real fruit and real actual sweeteners, like better to use honey and agave and actual sugar, like cane sugar than, you know, the fake sugars. But this flavor by far, it's called Grape Aid. It's the grape one. My two boys love grape pop, like grape flavored soda. Like if there's that, I know, which I actually did as a kid too. I like, oh, crush, grape crush.
Lauren (03:52.562)
totally.
Lauren (04:01.61)
Yum.
Wilhelmina (04:05.405)
I'm like, not me.
Vanessa (04:08.748)
Yeah, same. And I was a kid. Crush! Was it crush? Great crush.
Lauren (04:12.342)
Whoa.
Teri (04:14.142)
Yes. If there is a grape, I'm similar. If there is a grape flavor, if there's a grape juice, pop, anything, I gravitate towards a grape, like a grape, which is really a fake grape flavor. But this is so good. And then randomly, I was reading an old issue of Real Simple because I'm trying to recycle all my old magazines, but I need to look through them one more time before I, it's this whole thing. So I was reading and this got voted best.
Lauren (04:15.382)
Yes.
Teri (04:41.214)
this actual flavor of Grape-Aid Spindrift got voted best flavor. So, and sometimes it's hard to find. Sometimes when you look the shelf, that part is empty if you're at Target or Whole Foods for this particular flavor. So I would recommend Grape-Aid Spindrift.
Lauren (04:44.28)
funny.
Lauren (04:53.216)
popular.
Yum.
Teri (04:56.544)
How about you? Yeah, how about you, Wilmina?
Wilhelmina (04:56.934)
I do like spin drift.
Lauren (04:58.038)
I do too.
Wilhelmina (05:01.223)
So in line with what Lauren was saying in terms of preparation for the summer, I was going to talk about my love of Bowdoin swimsuits.
Teri (05:11.998)
Mmm. Preach! Same. Love him. Love him.
Lauren (05:12.284)
you wore one, yeah, at the spa. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (05:14.161)
Yes, yes, uh-huh, uh-huh. So I don't know when I got my first one, but it was several years ago. And then now every summer I usually get like one or two new suits just as like a little refresh, especially since we spend so much time at the pool over the summer. So it's kind of like, it's your like summer wardrobe. You just put it on and that's what you're wearing. So these hold up so well.
Teri (05:37.72)
huh.
Wilhelmina (05:42.974)
In fact, the one I did buy initially several years ago finally got that kind of stretched out look and I was like, oh, and I ended up going and buying it in a different color because I loved it so much. But they fit really well. They hold up. The colors are great. I think the only issue I ever run into is if you're getting a two-piece, sometimes you're like, oh, I love this top. And then you get the top, you put it in the
cart and then you go to the bottoms and you're like, there's no sizes available or something. there's like not often, there's sometimes like a mismatch between what is available. But if you kind of wait long enough, I ordered one and the bottoms were back ordered till June. Well, I ordered it and like two weeks later it showed up. So I was like, okay, so even the back order don't necessarily trust that it's going to be as long as what it says. And then the final thing I would say is,
Vanessa (06:14.677)
Hmm.
Lauren (06:15.07)
Yeah.
Vanessa (06:31.086)
11 and a half.
Wilhelmina (06:39.515)
Bowdoin is UK, so the sizes is just, they're just a little different than the US. So once you know your size for Bowdoin, it really helps. And I would say that, Terry, do you have Bowdoin stuff too?
Lauren (06:42.453)
Hmm.
Teri (06:43.807)
Yeah.
Teri (06:52.744)
I do. have a couple of bone suits. I love them.
Wilhelmina (06:55.057)
Would you say like, think they are maybe if you're a six, maybe you're an eight in Bowdoin kind of thing. Yes. Yes.
Teri (07:00.512)
I go up a size. Yeah, I usually go up one size in Bowdoin and then it fits because the fabric, in my opinion, is also, I don't know if it's thicker, but it's more, it holds you in a little bit better and it feels more solid and substantial and higher quality. Not thicker in a bad way, but just probably not using the right adjective. Yes. Yes. So I think with that, maybe that's part of it too. Like you need to go up. But when I've done my normal size, it's a
Wilhelmina (07:14.289)
Yes. Yes.
Wilhelmina (07:20.257)
it feels like it's covering you and holding you in. That's right. Like, yes.
Vanessa (07:21.976)
Like like sucking you in.
Teri (07:29.536)
It's too much. It's a little snug. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (07:30.685)
tight. Yes, yes. So yeah, I love them. And again, I have two pieces, I have a one piece love them all. And you can kind of get any style you want like so if you want like a little more thinner straps or thicker straps or whatever, it's all there. So yeah, definitely love them. And Vanessa, how about you?
Lauren (07:49.91)
awesome.
Vanessa (07:54.366)
I am gonna be sharing a book. So I don't share a lot of books, even though I read a lot because I basically only read fantasy fiction. And I know it's not everyone's genre. Although I will say when I was listening to the podcast where Dr. Mary Claire was being interviewed by Dax Shepard, she says in there, she's like, I basically read fantasy fiction and medical journals. And I was like, okay, I already loved you and now I love you even more. So.
Teri (08:02.066)
Yeah.
Lauren (08:02.358)
you
Lauren (08:10.521)
yeah. Yes.
Lauren (08:19.478)
you
Wilhelmina (08:20.241)
You
Vanessa (08:21.6)
I was like, I'm gonna share a series that I just recently read. The first two are out and then the third one, which is supposed to be the last one in the series is coming out in like two weeks. So this is a good time if you're gonna start it. But I did share not like recently there was a book series that came out and I shared it with you guys and I'm blanking on the name. It was the dragon, fourth wing. So fourth wing. So fourth wing came out and I shared that because there's got a lot of buzz on Instagram. And I'm always like curious.
Lauren (08:43.25)
fourth wing.
Wilhelmina (08:44.093)
fourth wing.
Vanessa (08:50.882)
Like what makes a fantasy fiction book just like, you know, kind of go out into like social media world because there's a bajillion of these books. But anyway, I read a lot of Kindle Unlimited. So some of them are like, OK, but every once in while I come across one that I really like. So was like, I'm going to share this because I'm sure somebody listening likes fantasy fiction. So it's it's Bloodwing Academy. And it basically was saying if you liked fourth wing, you like this. There are definitely some similarities, but there's.
It's not the same storyline. So I think it made she made it different enough. The author is Briar Bolan. But I just I actually liked this more than fourth wing. I personally I had like an issue with the like main character in fourth wing. Like she just irritated me a lot like, you know, when you're reading a book and you're like, why? Why? So anyway, I really love the heroine in this story. So, yeah, if you're looking for a new series to start fantasy fiction, it's called Bloodwing Academy.
Wilhelmina (09:27.645)
Hmm.
Lauren (09:27.909)
wow.
Lauren (09:33.714)
I'm
Wilhelmina (09:38.375)
Yes!
Vanessa (09:46.168)
First two books are out, it's on Kindle Unlimited. So if you have it, you don't have to pay for it. So yeah, that's my share.
Lauren (09:52.128)
Nice.
Wilhelmina (09:52.349)
Nice.
Vanessa (09:54.338)
All right, so let's get into our topic today. Well, it's still gonna be different topics. So Lauren, since this was your idea, why don't you go first, share us the question that you have for the group that you wanna ask us today.
Lauren (10:06.078)
Yeah, so this is a question that my son has been asking me for weeks now. so if it actually if it wasn't Mother's Day yesterday, I probably would have started our group chat on it. But that's what gave me the idea for today. So I'm getting your answers in real time. So my son is going to be 12 in the fall. So he is ending fifth grade going into sixth. So these kids are all 11, 12 years old, like right in that, you know, sort of early middle school age.
And apparently this year, and I don't even know, I haven't asked him if it started last year, the kids at the school started like, they're all part of a group chat. So those kids that have phones or iPads are all part of a group chat. He's never been part of one. He's never felt the need to be part of one. But now as he's getting a little bit older and his friend circle has expanded, now a couple of his very close buddies are not in it either.
Wilhelmina (10:43.877)
Mm hmm. Yep.
Lauren (11:03.814)
moms and I are kind of on the same page in that, but this is where I want your advice in that we're like, God, there's so much crap that can happen in a large group chat like that. We've seen it in our clinical practice where kids just get overwhelmed, do something inappropriate, not intentionally hurt somebody's feelings, get left out. That I'm very worried about allowing this. On the other hand, this is
Teri (11:17.311)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (11:20.206)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (11:21.386)
Yeah.
Lauren (11:31.35)
of how they're connecting socially. And I don't want to take that away from him. I have attempted to say, will let you talk to any kiddo that you want to on my phone and the other mom's phone. That's not the thing anymore. So I'm stuck. He's a good kid. I want to give him a little bit more, you know, he looks at this as like a little bit more freedom and maturity and independence. But I'm struggling because I see so much of the bad.
Teri (11:46.623)
Bye.
Vanessa (11:47.627)
you
Wilhelmina (12:00.615)
So since I'm Maddie and we're one year apart, yes. So I went through this last year because pretty much everyone after graduating fifth grade, if they don't already have a cell phone, that is the time where the cell phone gets given. And so if there wasn't a chat already, there certainly is now. No, and it didn't happen for Maddie either. She got a flip phone, no texting.
Lauren (12:04.438)
they're a year apart. Yep, Maddie and Sam are a year apart. Yeah.
Lauren (12:20.726)
And that's not happening for him. So yeah, so I know, I know. Yeah, I know, I know. So that's the thing, like that piece is out.
Wilhelmina (12:30.365)
So what Maddie does have is an iPad. It is not her iPad, although it is kind of her iPad, but it is set up. I have all parental controls on it. I can literally control it down to every single app, the time she can turn it on, the time she can turn it off. We also don't let her just have it. So, I mean, sometimes does end up in her room more often than not,
Vanessa (12:37.39)
Hmm.
Vanessa (12:53.048)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (12:53.27)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (12:57.765)
It's not like we could just grab it at any time and just take it away. And so she is able to message her friends through the iPad. I will say she has said she doesn't even want to be part of all of the group chatter. She finds it kind of overwhelming and does see a lot of the drama that I think plays out in school.
Lauren (13:00.085)
Yes.
Vanessa (13:16.142)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (13:16.756)
Yeah
Lauren (13:20.554)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (13:22.991)
So she just has this like little core group of friends and it's been the same. I'm a little worried what's gonna happen as we enter seventh grade because I know I've heard that you go into sixth grade with your friends from elementary school and then they start to spread seventh and eighth. And she's not, I'm not seeing her make new friends. I'm seeing, she just started talking about someone new. So I'm a little worried with that, but the iPad is a nice segue. She's not locked to it, but she's also,
Lauren (13:29.024)
Yeah, yeah, safe, but next.
Vanessa (13:40.792)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (13:41.418)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (13:51.43)
if she needs to do a quick message or like they've coordinated costumes for like, know, spirit days or things like, she can do that through the iPad. That's kind of how we've worked around it.
Lauren (13:56.8)
you
Vanessa (14:03.362)
I was gonna say, so my daughter is still too young to have want this, but my girlfriend has a little girl who's two years older and there is a friend group chat and they use the iPad too. But going to your thought Lauren about, well, what if he says something inappropriate? And so this happened, this happened. my friends, there was an incident where there was something that was said, but the mom's checking. So my girlfriend's checking and the kid knows that. She's like, I'm looking through it.
Lauren (14:07.264)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (14:19.338)
Yeah, the danger piece.
Vanessa (14:31.36)
And so they had to problem solve this situation. And it was a good, luckily it wasn't anything crazy, but it was a good learning opportunity to be like, hey, let's talk about this sort of thing. So I don't think that it's not going to happen. Something could certainly happen. But I think I like this concept right now anyway. I don't know what things will look like whenever Lee's a little bit older and this comes up. The idea of an iPad that's not yours that doesn't stay with you and that I monitor.
Lauren (14:33.866)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (14:37.77)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (14:45.866)
Yep. Yep.
Lauren (14:56.554)
Yep, yep, yep, the house, the house iPad. Yep.
Vanessa (14:59.456)
It's like, yeah, like, and Everly has an iPad now. She doesn't she texts Mark and I like she can text us, but like because we set it up for her. It's like if we're traveling, she isn't with my mom. She can send us a text because that makes her feel good. So but we haven't set it up for anybody else right now. So I kind of like that idea. And yeah, I think that you just have to if you're going to do that, just know that if something comes up, you problem solve through it, you talk through it. You it's a good learning. I think it's a good learning experience to.
Lauren (15:03.424)
Yep. Yep.
Lauren (15:17.974)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (15:24.839)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (15:25.034)
Yeah. Yeah. So that it's interesting that you said that. So I've started this process, Terry knows this, because we were just chatting about this with like the kids in sports and, and, sometimes the pickup and drop off and whatever. I do need a way to connect with my kids. Yes. And now we've got great coaches and things like that. But yeah. So we just got what I'm calling a house phone.
Teri (15:32.672)
Thank you.
Teri (15:38.068)
Right. Right. Cause you're sending them out there for hours by themselves at a time. And I was 20 minutes late picking up Danny. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (15:40.195)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (15:52.232)
And if I could stick it to the wall with a cord, I would. But like we're calling it the house phone and it's sitting on a cute little stand in the kitchen. So I'm trying to literally make it like what we all had growing up. Right. And right now, the only capabilities that are on that are my number and Tim's number. And so we are starting to utilize it for things like, OK, I'm going to be a few minutes late picking you up because I'm dropping the other kid off, especially because Tim travels so much for being out of town.
Wilhelmina (15:54.951)
You
Vanessa (15:55.403)
Hahaha.
Teri (15:56.768)
you
Wilhelmina (16:04.999)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (16:22.1)
And so teaching them how to use it in that way. And so I figure I, and I've got it completely locked. I went to Verizon and had them do, walk me through all of those things. So they can't do anything on it really, other than, you know, text and call. But I do like what you said, Vanessa, about, I talked to Sam about, okay, I need to keep thinking about this and deciding whatever, but please know that if you're part of a group chat, I will be checking the messages. Well, his face was like appalled.
Vanessa (16:49.294)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (16:51.39)
And I said, if it's not me, it's another mom. I guarantee there are other moms that are part of this. You're not telling me that 60 kids in a fifth grade classroom, I don't know how many kids are a part of this, but you're not telling me that this huge group of kids is part of a group chat and none of the moms are monitoring this. And so that was helpful for him to know like, okay, if and when I did decide to give you permission to this, I'm gonna be monitoring not because I don't trust you, but because I wanna help you.
Wilhelmina (16:55.41)
Yes.
Vanessa (17:19.95)
Yeah, you're still learning. You're still learning.
Lauren (17:19.986)
should there ever be a situation and we need to be able to problem solve in real time. So that's good.
Vanessa (17:24.462)
Yeah.
Teri (17:25.586)
And that's exactly all of the above is exactly where I'm at. So my oldest is finishing up fourth grade, going into fifth. And the reason I messaged Lauren the other day is that my son will go out on the golf course and be out there for hours by himself. There's one coach driving around and he's just with older kids bumping around for hours. And about two weeks ago, he was at basketball practice and I got stuck by a train and I was 20 minutes late. And when I pulled up, he was standing outside.
Lauren (17:38.346)
Yes, Spain. Yeah.
Lauren (17:50.986)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (17:54.952)
in the parking lot, which we've talked about. he, but luckily a few other parents were also stuck by the same train. So him and three other kids. And I said, what are you doing out here? When I pulled up and it did seem like they, the kids were taking turns running back and forth to see if anyone's parents were there yet. So they ran out to the parking lot running back, but the basketball coach was already in middle of the next practice and his phone was tucked away in his duffel bag. So there's, yeah, there's no way for me. And I thought,
Lauren (18:02.272)
Yeah.
Lauren (18:12.407)
like going in and out of the room.
Lauren (18:18.622)
Yeah, yeah. Right. So even though there's a parent there, they're not monitoring. Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yep.
Vanessa (18:19.406)
wasn't watching them.
Teri (18:23.858)
Right, there's someone there, but that's not their job. They're there to coach. They're not there to babysit your kid. And I thought, man, if he just had a watch or a flip phone that I could have texted and been like, I'm on the way, stuck at a train, hold tight, don't wander around, which he knows better. It did provide an opportunity for learning for us to revisit that conversation, which we've had multiple times. But he did say later that night, he's like, I was scared. And so I said to my husband, we need to come up with a plan for the summer.
Lauren (18:41.078)
learning. Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (18:42.062)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (18:47.694)
Hmm.
Lauren (18:50.23)
I know.
Teri (18:50.92)
We live in a very walkable community. Right now he walks to school by himself, the library by himself and two different friends houses by himself. That is just going to continue to expand. So we need something, which is a great thing. We want to promote that autonomy and independence, but I like the idea of having something to be a part of the chat that will be monitored periodically. My friend, Rachel Lofton, who joined us for the autism segment, her old, she has one child and her
Wilhelmina (18:57.991)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:00.704)
Yeah. Which is a good thing. Yeah.
Lauren (19:10.58)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah.
Teri (19:19.584)
child is going into junior, finishing junior, junior, senior in high school. And when it comes to that cell, like their cell phone usage, what Rachel did is she's like, I would periodically wander into the room and go, hey, let me check that. And it was unannounced. It was casual. It was a normal part of their parenting routine. Just no big deal. Hey, let me just see that. So no time to delete, no time to hide things, no time to put under a hidden app that looks like a calculator on the phone.
Lauren (19:34.634)
Yeah.
Lauren (19:39.978)
No big deal.
Wilhelmina (19:45.021)
Yes.
Vanessa (19:45.464)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (19:48.928)
but I think there needs, I know, oh yeah, oh yeah. There needs to be somewhere between an iPhone, which I'm very far away from with my oldest, and a way to communicate and promote that autonomy with some monitoring. And I also, what I've been hearing from other friends, local mom friends whose kids are part of the chat, either on the shared iPad or is it exactly what Wilhelmina said? It allows them to coordinate stuff and they can make plans for themselves, which I think is huge.
Lauren (19:49.843)
God, don't even I like terrifies me.
Vanessa (19:49.902)
Is that a thing?
Lauren (19:59.69)
Now we
Lauren (20:04.851)
Yeah.
Lauren (20:12.383)
it.
Teri (20:19.264)
But a lot of them, a lot of my friends are like, they're not even that interested in it. And once it's not forbidden, yes, and they get to see what's going on. They're kind of like, oh, okay. Yes. Yes.
Lauren (20:24.92)
More of that appeal. Yes. Right.
Wilhelmina (20:25.959)
Yes.
Lauren (20:29.93)
I would much rather foster trust between Sam and I by like trying to figure this out, but it feels like a little bit overwhelming. So that was helpful. Thank you, ladies. Thank you.
Teri (20:38.76)
I'm with you, solidarity.
Wilhelmina (20:40.871)
I will just add, this doesn't help with the chat, but the Gizmo watch has been nice. So Terry, to your point for that with Griffin, because he is now biking, he bikes downtown. He just did it for the first time with a friend. He got a little lost. He called us, we could see where he was. And we said, okay, turn here. And so we set up who he can call. He can text his friends once we allow that person, so not groups.
Lauren (20:45.3)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (21:08.615)
but like that person. So it has been a little bit of a, you know, just a little step.
Lauren (21:13.024)
Like a nice snap. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Thank you, ladies.
Teri (21:14.016)
That's what, yep.
Vanessa (21:15.022)
Yeah, that's a good one. Well, good. All right, who wants to go next? We're going to spend about 10 minutes on each topic today. OK, go ahead, Sarah.
Teri (21:21.354)
I'll go. So mine came up this morning in a therapy session that I was doing with a client. And I think this will apply to everybody listening. If you found yourself in this scenario and thinking about how to manage it interpersonally, how to be effective and kind at the same time. So the scenario is you are somewhere in a
Lauren (21:27.158)
Hello.
Teri (21:46.816)
either a public place and it's a stranger who approaches you or you're at a party or a social gathering and somebody you know well and maybe is dear to you is going down a pathway of conversation that is becoming like a monologue or they are starting to show you pictures on their phone and they are flipping through. And so the scenario that my client presented was being at a bar and talking about a trip that they were gonna take and the person next to them overheard.
And then this person found themselves engaged with this stranger who started showing them pictures on the phone. And they were like, I want to get, yes, I want to get, now this is my life. If any of you guys have traveled with me.
Lauren (22:20.332)
Vanessa (22:21.218)
My worst nightmare.
Wilhelmina (22:26.621)
It is your life, Terri. I mean, I am with you and we're in the pool and suddenly someone's up talking to you about like Chicago and the Pope and you know, you're like, what?
Lauren (22:28.893)
my god, Terry. This is you.
Teri (22:34.848)
Who knows? Yes. Right. And I... And you have to find a way to set a boundary and navigate it. And it could be with a stranger, so maybe a little less higher stakes, or it could be at a wedding or an event and the conversation is going on and on and you're nodding.
Vanessa (22:39.822)
I have severe RBF, so nobody does that to me. I just am like...
I'm
Lauren (22:52.918)
Bye.
Teri (23:01.3)
thinking to yourself, okay, I want to go grab a drink or I want to go eat or I'm good. I just want to exit this conversation. So let me tell you what I suggested to her. And then you guys tell me if off the cuff, you have any suggestions about how to navigate that scenario. What I suggested to her was I'm a big fan of pairing a nonverbal physical cue with some type of straightforward worded kindly and a nice tone statement.
Vanessa (23:10.387)
Yeah.
Teri (23:29.6)
And what I suggested to her was something where you put your hand up or maybe even do something like this so that they sort of see that you're setting some type of boundary and at the same time saying, oh, I loved chatting with you. I really want to get back to X, Y and Z. So being very truthful and authentic and straightforward and somewhat sandwiching it. So saying that, it's been so great talking with you. I've really enjoyed this. So.
you're giving them the sandwich where there's, you know, a stroke, a kick and a stroke in terms of, this has been so great. I love these pictures. I really want to get back to dinner with my husband over there, but I love chatting with you and just physically turning away. But I'm wondering, because all of us find ourselves in this predicament at some point, anything else you guys would add to that or say instead, or I don't know what comes to mind in terms of that type of scenario and setting.
Wilhelmina (24:00.275)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (24:27.008)
an appropriate boundary, especially if it's someone you want to preserve the relationship with. It's an ant. Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (24:31.916)
Yeah, was just going to say, I think it's easier to do that with a stranger. We're like, my goodness. When it's somebody you know, I think that that's definitely harder to do.
Lauren (24:35.274)
Definitely.
Lauren (24:40.534)
So I think, I'll go ahead.
Wilhelmina (24:40.615)
Yeah, think, I was gonna say like, if it is somewhere where you are out and about socially, like a wedding or something like that, I think that's easier because you can say something nice and then like, I gotta run to the restroom or I gotta go grab a drink or like, and so you can get away. It is harder in something that would be a smaller social setting where you're kind of, yes, yes. But again, I think you can use the same,
Teri (25:03.988)
like a small dinner party or something.
Wilhelmina (25:10.269)
that's so interesting. I love these pictures. I've got to really consider that. Excuse me, I just got to use the restroom. So I think you can, again, use a change of scenery, something you need to grab, something you need to do as a way to of sidestep away. But that's tricky. That one's tricky. I feel like I get myself in very lengthy conversations where I'm like, how do I wrap this up?
Vanessa (25:36.008)
Because you're too nice.
Lauren (25:36.416)
Yes, you do.
Teri (25:38.133)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (25:40.061)
Ha!
Vanessa (25:40.446)
I feel like I've caught myself at dinners before. Like, you're at a dinner and maybe you know some of the people or you don't know some people or you get stuck in this conversation. You can't really go anywhere when you're at the table. And so what I will try to do is like a body signal, like back myself up so that it's not, see now I'm telling y'all what I do. So like, you're see me do this and you're gonna be like.
Lauren (25:50.027)
Yeah.
Lauren (25:58.26)
Ha ha!
Wilhelmina (25:59.774)
Vanessa, are we boring you in this conversation? Because I see the backup here. I see it.
Vanessa (26:04.878)
Like, because you know when someone's talking to you, you're of like this, right? Like you're engaged with them. So I feel like the body language is if you kind of like turn and maybe you're still doing it. And like, if I catch someone saying something, like I'll be like, my, you know, like you try to like be like, what did you say? You know, like, so you basically have to physically, I think, like move your body in a different direction and then try to like pull into a conversation. So it's hard, I think that's hard to do, but yeah, sometimes you're in these situations where you can't get up and like walk away, but you're like, okay.
Lauren (26:07.701)
Yeah.
Lauren (26:19.358)
Yeah. Shift it.
Teri (26:33.632)
and
Vanessa (26:34.862)
Okay.
Lauren (26:35.04)
I think you can also do it with how involved you stay in the conversation. Because if you're going to keep asking questions, then they're not picking up on any cues from you to stop talking. So what you can do is comment without questioning. Like, that's so cool. Awesome. Because at some point, there will be an endpoint, even if there's somebody that monologues without social awareness to the fact that, OK, this has been a long enough conversation.
Vanessa (26:39.886)
Like your feedback.
Vanessa (26:46.048)
Hahaha!
Teri (26:50.612)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (26:51.421)
Mm.
Lauren (27:03.57)
if you're not asking them questions after a certain point, it will find a natural end. So I think that there's a way of doing, well, I mean, you hope so, right? You hope so. in that case, even if there's not a natural end, then you could use something more physical. I've got to stop you, I've got to go to the bathroom, something like that. But I think we sometimes, when we're in those scenarios, if we're not aware of what we're doing to contribute,
Vanessa (27:06.968)
Yes, we have. You hope. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (27:09.883)
You hope?
Teri (27:11.776)
God willing.
Wilhelmina (27:13.234)
haha
Lauren (27:33.0)
to the continuation, then it could make it worse. so I think just being aware of like, OK, I need to be somewhere in a couple of minutes, or I'm all done with this conversation, even though this person isn't, and that's OK, I'm going to stop asking questions. Because if I stop asking questions, like at some point, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, without being rude, you just don't ask anymore. Yeah. Right.
Vanessa (27:33.186)
Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.
Teri (27:34.772)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (27:46.464)
It's also the story of my life. Okay. Yeah.
Vanessa (27:49.698)
They'll stop. Yeah, they'll get the point that you're not interested. Yeah, that's a really good point.
Teri (27:53.856)
Yeah, right. think that's an excellent point. What are you doing to contribute to that? Yeah.
Vanessa (27:58.872)
Yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (28:00.997)
And I guess a theme is like body language all around too. Just sort of like whether it's the, how you're holding yourself, where you're turning. Please.
Vanessa (28:03.266)
Yeah, I think it's a big, yeah.
Teri (28:04.233)
Uh-huh.
Lauren (28:07.99)
Please stop.
Teri (28:08.138)
Yeah.
Vanessa (28:10.21)
Yeah. I was like, that's why it's like good wear watch like,
Teri (28:11.648)
Get away from me!
Wilhelmina (28:16.733)
Ooh, I always think of Christmas vacation. Ooh, look at the time, I gotta feed the hog and I got homework to do and.
Lauren (28:17.073)
my gosh, right.
Lauren (28:25.27)
So good. All right, who's next?
Teri (28:26.112)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (28:30.567)
Well, I will go and actually Lauren, mine sort of, it's not an overlap with yours, but actually the iPad played a factor in mine. So this happened a few months ago. I was home with the kiddos by myself. Owen was working. Maddie had a play practice that she had to get to and it was a Saturday play practice. So was, that's not usual, but it was not long before the play and it was gonna be all day.
Lauren (28:38.505)
interesting. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (29:00.641)
And I said, okay, we got to get ready. And she was saying, I don't want to go, which was a little unusual. And then she opened up that she was having some issues with a friend and that friend had kind of been giving her the silent treatment for like two weeks, which she had not disclosed to me before that. My heart, of course, immediately was like breaking for her. And in that moment, I understood what she was feeling.
I understood that she didn't want to go to this play practice where this friend was and she didn't want to be actively kind of silent treatment for the whole time. And yet she had to get to that play practice. There was no way around it. She had to be there. Yeah, it was so important.
Lauren (29:43.348)
Yeah. She had a commitment. Yeah.
Teri (29:48.906)
We don't have time to have a 30 minute heart to heart talk through this. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (29:52.51)
Right, yes, yes. I mean, I think we were like 30 minutes before we even had to be there. So, and I think we were still in our PJs. Like, so it was like, oh, uh-oh. And I was like, hold on one minute and excused myself and went to the bathroom and immediately was texting you guys and like, oh my God, what do I do? Help me, help me, help me. And I kind of gave the cliff notes of the situation and you were.
Vanessa (29:53.23)
All right.
Lauren (30:02.166)
and couple other things to attend to.
Lauren (30:08.886)
you
Wilhelmina (30:21.667)
awesome because you were just immediately, one, were like, I think you all sort of shared a similar story of like middle school age and girls just doing this, which was sad and heartbreaking and made me like tear up and also was like, God, this is just part of it, right? This is it. And then the, the advice was so great, which was, yes, she has to be there.
Lauren (30:38.869)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (30:47.965)
Can you go with her or can you be close? Can you go check in? Like say, I'm gonna drop you off and I'll check back and then kind of say, hey, maybe after you do this, we'll, you a special treat. So kind of reward it, which obviously wouldn't be the norm, but for this situation. And yes, yes, the act of like, hey, this sucks. I know this sucks, but we've got to do it. So what if we...
Teri (31:04.67)
and reward the bravery. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Lauren (31:07.05)
Yeah.
Vanessa (31:10.882)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:14.947)
know, what would be a special treat for your bravery afterwards. And I liked, yeah, Terry, I think you were the one that worded it that way. And I was like, I love this. And I went into her bedroom and I sort of pitched, know, I sort of said everything we had talked about. And I got her moving. It got her moving. It got her getting dressed. She was still tearful and still crying. And so the plan was I was going to drop her off. I was going to go downtown Glen Ellyn, which is right there and just shop like step in a few shops and it was going to pop back in.
Lauren (31:21.675)
Yeah.
Lauren (31:27.712)
And.
Wilhelmina (31:44.924)
And just as we were saying this, I picked up her iPad and I don't know why I picked up her iPad, but it had a message from her friend and said, do you want to sit together at play practice today? So, and I said this to Maddie, you could just see her like relief wash over her. And so she still was nervous. So I still walked her in. We were a little late, which was fine. So like, I didn't rush her at that point. I was like, we're going to get there when we're going to get there.
Lauren (32:13.738)
Yes, because we're following through on this commitment. Yeah.
Vanessa (32:13.885)
you
Wilhelmina (32:14.769)
But maybe you guys can, because we're, yes, we're doing this. So maybe you guys wanna just kind of share like sort of what led you to tell me what you told me and any other thoughts and feedback, because I don't think this is gonna be the first last time this happens.
Vanessa (32:30.896)
Hahaha.
Teri (32:31.604)
Where I was coming from is the place of avoidance of self-reinforcing and of avoiding something temporarily, which for many individuals can be almost like a hit of a drug, like of heroin or something. That temporary relief of getting out of something that is anxiety provoking, that avoidance is so incredibly reinforcing when it comes to behavior principles that
Lauren (32:32.308)
It won't.
Lauren (32:39.296)
Yeah, exactly.
Wilhelmina (32:39.388)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (32:39.587)
Yeah.
Vanessa (32:52.92)
Hmm.
Lauren (32:56.011)
Yeah.
Teri (32:59.272)
you don't want to create longer term, the significant pattern of avoidance. And so I was thinking of if it's not too detrimental, which it didn't sound like it was, she's got to get there. If you can get her there, so you're not creating, it's a sort of hard now, easy later idea, like down the road. So I was coming at it. I remember reading the text thinking, how can you get her there? You got to get her there from an exposure standpoint and what's going to be effective getting her at the play practice.
Wilhelmina (33:02.685)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (33:12.637)
Yes.
Vanessa (33:13.016)
Yeah.
Lauren (33:21.984)
Yeah. Yep.
Vanessa (33:24.386)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, think your question, well, two things I think came in my mind is, you know, as a parent, right, not as a psychologist, as a parent, you always want to make sure you're doing the right thing. And so I think you knew. I don't think we surprised you with our responses, but I think it was nice to have, you know, three other moms reinforce that like, yeah, she's got to go. And I think that this is something that comes up a lot in like work with kids. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to tell parents.
Lauren (33:29.131)
Yeah.
Lauren (33:39.883)
Yeah.
Teri (33:42.602)
Yeah.
Lauren (33:46.09)
that reinforcement.
Yeah.
Vanessa (33:56.674)
You empathize, yeah, I know this is hard, but you gotta go. So like, it's not about, you can't avoid it. You can sympathize, and I think that's a huge part of it. Like, I get it, this is hard, know, doing all of that. But the moment you pull them away from whatever that thing is, let me tell you, getting them back into whatever it is is like climbing a mountain. So it's better to just, as much as it sucks, go, and that first time, whatever you gotta do, than to...
Wilhelmina (33:57.863)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (33:59.094)
This sucks. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (34:15.328)
Yep. Yeah.
Teri (34:16.767)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (34:17.436)
Yes.
Lauren (34:21.728)
Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (34:26.307)
not keep them away from whatever it is that they are not wanting to experience.
Lauren (34:31.722)
Yeah, and I would just add to that the one thing that I know that we all talked about that I think was really important was once you guys made the decision of like, we're going, we're doing this, was being able to give her some semblance of control over the situation, as little as it was offering, hey, I can come back, I can sit there. You gave her a couple of options. I can't remember exactly what they were. I know it was the comeback one that you guys decided on, but it was the idea of giving her a sense of like, I have to do this thing that's going to suck.
Wilhelmina (34:51.495)
I did.
Teri (34:52.138)
Yeah, the options are good.
Vanessa (34:54.744)
Yeah.
Lauren (35:01.002)
but my mom's here with me and I have some kind of choice as to how this looks. Gave her, yeah, the bravery she needed and then certainly reinforcing that bravery of like, yeah, this is hard and we're gonna do it.
Vanessa (35:06.146)
I'm gonna do that,
Wilhelmina (35:14.257)
Yeah. And I think for me in that moment, I was so overwhelmed and like flooded with my own stuff of like, that I could not think about anything. I just sort of knew, like you said, Vanessa, I knew she needed to go, but I was like, how do I do it? I can't like pick her up and take her, right? You know, I just sort of like was like, my mind was empty. I could, but that's not, and so I, you three were just able to say,
Lauren (35:23.263)
Yes.
Vanessa (35:35.694)
I mean, you could, but that's probably not the best way to do that.
Lauren (35:38.133)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (35:43.204)
here's how, here are the steps because I couldn't think of them in the moment, which I think is a big thing with like our text threads in general. Like sometimes we're like, just, what do I, what do I do here? What do I do?
Lauren (35:45.898)
Yeah.
Totally.
Vanessa (35:52.696)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (35:52.778)
Yeah. Help! Help!
Teri (35:53.84)
And keeping your tone, which create, which make you have to be an actress, essentially, because in your is as a mom, you're thinking you're watching the clock, we got to go, you got to get ready. Yeah, exactly. Get your ass out the door. We're not doing this today. Okay, like you're doing this. This was on the plans on the schedule. Get your shoes on. So I also think
Lauren (35:59.561)
Yeah.
Vanessa (36:00.312)
Yeah
Vanessa (36:04.366)
I can get your ass out the door.
Lauren (36:10.294)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (36:13.839)
I I'm so sorry. All of the other things.
Vanessa (36:16.398)
you
Teri (36:17.31)
Yeah, you will.
Lauren (36:18.166)
But also, you're probably a little pissed at the girl that's giving her the silent treatment, and you can't necessarily show her that in the moment either. You're like hurting, and you're mad, and yeah.
Teri (36:20.67)
Yes. And then you're worried. Right. And you're probably right. And you're also probably worried. Wait, what's been going on for the past two weeks? You've been getting the silent treatment. So you're thinking about that. You have to really be an actress and think. I like the phrase you have to connect to redirect. And so thinking I'm going to be soft. The minute my kids start to dig in, I don't want to do that. I immediately have to go. OK.
Vanessa (36:24.95)
Yeah, right. can't. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (36:31.684)
RIGHT!
Vanessa (36:31.83)
yeah.
Lauren (36:35.051)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:41.258)
Yeah.
Vanessa (36:41.262)
That's empathizing,
Teri (36:49.02)
I am actually going to take the whole temperature. yeah. All the way down. cannot match their mood. I'm expecting them to it. Right. Because, well, do you know what's it's because I'm expecting them to engage in a behavior that I'm not currently demonstrating. I'm expecting them to come be a calm reason. Yeah. I'm, I'm expecting them to be a calm, reasonable, rational presence, but I'm not bringing that to the table.
Lauren (36:49.482)
A light audible breath.
Wilhelmina (36:56.157)
I have a hard time with that, I really do.
Lauren (36:58.198)
It's hard.
Vanessa (36:58.636)
Yeah, it's hard.
Lauren (37:04.916)
Right, right. I can scream, but you can't.
Teri (37:14.944)
And it's one of my pet peeves in therapy work with parents. I'm like, you're expecting your child to engage in behaviors that you're not even demonstrating. You have a fully formed brain and life experience to draw upon and they don't. So I sort of come at it. Yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, is this a small medium or big problem? We can be like, I know you don't want to go. This is really hard. I have some ideas. You know, are you willing to hear them? But it requires you as a parent to be an actress.
Lauren (37:15.552)
so hard.
Lauren (37:22.442)
Yep.
Wilhelmina (37:22.609)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (37:28.852)
Yeah, your modeling in that moment was huge. Yeah.
Teri (37:44.344)
and not be authentic in a way because your true authenticity would be to not approach it that way probably, at least for me it's not. I truly have to tell myself I am being an actress.
Wilhelmina (37:44.369)
Yeah, well.
Vanessa (37:52.076)
Hahaha!
Wilhelmina (37:52.454)
Right.
Lauren (37:52.458)
Right.
Vanessa (37:56.462)
I mean, I think the physical, like, like when I'm like, you know, like, like, bring it together. yeah, like, you know, like everybody's like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm just resetting myself. Let's do this. It's hard. Oh my goodness.
Lauren (37:56.566)
Yeah, cutting on the face.
Yeah, yeah. Yep. yeah. Audible breath. Just resetting myself.
Wilhelmina (38:01.297)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (38:09.108)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (38:09.635)
Take a breath.
Teri (38:14.472)
Yes.
Lauren (38:15.036)
Wilhelmina (38:15.741)
Well, and it's funny because Maddie knows that we text all of the time. In fact, she finds it so amusing because she's like, I'm going to do a tracker. Do you guys text every day? And I'm like, pretty much. And so she'll be like, so she knew that I was consulting with you three. And she was like, what did they say? because, but she, think it actually felt like some extra support of like,
Lauren (38:21.556)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (38:26.976)
Mmm... Close.
Vanessa (38:28.111)
Hahaha!
Lauren (38:28.378)
huh.
Lauren (38:32.618)
Yeah.
Vanessa (38:33.472)
I'm
Lauren (38:36.79)
Am I gonna like it?
Lauren (38:43.605)
Yeah
Teri (38:44.096)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:44.765)
And especially since I shared your stories of like, hey, this happened. And it of course made us both feel sad. Like we were like, it sort of sucks. But I really was like, she felt like you guys were in her corner in addition to me because I did disclose, I was like, hey, here's what they said. Here's what we're gonna do. Here's a plan. Yes, I have consulted with.
Vanessa (38:48.184)
Yeah.
Lauren (38:52.874)
Yeah, this sucks, yeah.
Vanessa (39:00.248)
Yeah. I love it.
Lauren (39:00.277)
Yeah.
Vanessa (39:05.132)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:05.226)
I love that. Here's the plan.
Teri (39:05.812)
Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. mean, I know.
Vanessa (39:09.442)
The tribe has spoken. The tribe.
Teri (39:14.384)
I guess it's hard. It's age is so hard. My point of reference is my maiden name started with an S and my three best friends in fourth grade, fourth and fifth grade, all their last names started with an and they started the and club. And the only way to be in the and club was to have your name have an and my middle name is Michelle. And I remember saying, can't I be in it? And they were like, no, it's your last name has to start with That's how stupid fourth. That's just what it is though. But you know what? That's normal.
Lauren (39:27.795)
Wilhelmina (39:29.211)
Vanessa (39:39.554)
yeah.
Yeah.
Teri (39:44.572)
It sucks, but that's normal because that's how kids operate. They're trying to finagle social relationships and they're, yeah, they're trying to figure it out. So stupid. was so stressful for me at the time. Please, anything. Yes.
Vanessa (39:44.844)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:44.928)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:49.462)
trying to figure it out.
Vanessa (39:51.277)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:52.852)
I feel it.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (39:56.126)
he's like, please, middle name, can we have an exclusion and asterisk to this group?
Vanessa (40:00.686)
Yeah. Well, I will say, you know, I I shared this when you sent that text that I had a best friend in fourth and fifth grade. I came back from the summer and hadn't seen her. But that was kind of like normal. Like I spent my summers with my cousins because I have 100 cousins and I came back and she would not talk to me. And I remember zero explanation to this day. I do not know what happened. And I wish that there was an adult who would have taken my corner.
Lauren (40:01.706)
Yeah.
Teri (40:18.41)
With no explanation, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (40:30.752)
or try to facilitate that in some way. But I remember just being on my own and there was no kind of sympathy, like, I'm sorry, this is happening to you. And so when you text us, I immediately thought of that situation. And I'm so glad that you were supportive of her in that moment. it was traumatizing. I still remember this.
Lauren (40:41.238)
you
Lauren (40:56.437)
Yeah.
Vanessa (40:57.186)
Friendship and like to this day. I truly was like what happened? I still do not know and it's still I think about that sometimes about what what happened I have no idea
Teri (41:04.512)
I can picture where I was standing in my fourth grade classroom when they explained, when I finally learned about how to get into their club that I was like, yeah, it's very, it sticks with you. Yes.
Lauren (41:09.114)
Ugh.
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (41:16.194)
I have to get married. my gosh.
Lauren (41:18.41)
right. So I need to find somebody with an I need to legally change my name. Vanessa.
Wilhelmina (41:18.877)
To an last name.
Teri (41:20.978)
I'm last name. know. I know. Okay. What do you got Vanessa?
Vanessa (41:27.0)
So we've kind of brought this topic up before in one of our podcasts. So we did like a holiday podcast. We talked a little bit about kind of family dynamics and how do you kind of manage a toxic kind of relationships and families. But this is more about being kind of outside of the immediate situation. So I'm not gonna get into details, but I have two relatives who are in disagreement about something and
Not that there's been this spoken you have to take aside, but it's kind of divided some of the family members. And I live far away. So I feel like I'm kind of excluded from this. But I've had conversations with other family members who are not involved. so my question is, are you really able to stay neutral in these situations? Should you stay neutral in these family situations? And obviously, I know, like, depending on
There's so many variables here, right? Depending on what it is, I'm sure is one of the things. But, you know, or should you try to help people make amends? Like, right? Like, what role should you take in these situations? Because the bottom line is I find it sad because we were such like growing up. I just can remember us having these like huge Christmases where everybody was there. And it kind of stopped because of Covid. Like Covid really put a kink in like all of this stuff. But
Lauren (42:26.55)
Yeah.
Vanessa (42:55.438)
it hasn't kind of gone back in part because of this situation. And so it makes me sad. Especially living so far away from my family and loving an opportunity where they can all be together, where I don't have to be like, I'm gonna go, because it's hard to visit everybody, right? And so I miss that. But I've had conversations with other family members of like, you don't have to take a side, you can stay neutral. That's kind of my stance, but I don't know. Do you guys think that?
Lauren (43:12.299)
Yeah.
Vanessa (43:25.452)
You can, you should stay neutral in these situations. You try to make amends. I don't know.
Wilhelmina (43:30.941)
Do you have, if it didn't involve like having to make a choice, do you feel like you do have a side? Like, do you kind of agree with one over the other?
Lauren (43:39.422)
That's a good question.
Vanessa (43:40.674)
Yeah, I personally don't. Yeah, this isn't one of those situations where I think it's super clear. It's kind of like a he said, she said situation. And I really feel like these two people just have different perspectives on what happened. And I really feel like I don't know. I don't think anybody really knows what really happened. So I find it hard to take a side because they're both
Wilhelmina (43:45.02)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (43:51.057)
Mm. Okay.
Lauren (44:05.664)
Right.
Vanessa (44:09.388)
have these different perceptions of what happened. And it doesn't involve anyone else except these two people. So I also feel like for that reason, like, I think it should just stay there.
Lauren (44:15.542)
Right.
Wilhelmina (44:22.183)
Stay there. Yeah.
Lauren (44:22.603)
Yeah.
Teri (44:22.976)
Yeah, I think when you have the physical distance, it does allow for some neutrality because if they're not part of day to day lives like, we're going here this, you know, would you like to come to my kids soccer game this weekend? You know, X, Y and Z, where you're having to navigate those more everyday sort of act or like birthday party, family birthday parties, et cetera. Like you're not even to navigate those instances. It makes it.
Vanessa (44:29.037)
It does.
Teri (44:49.362)
a little bit easier, I think, to let things unfold organically and sort of see what happens as time goes on. I think that if there is a clear right versus wrong, then you're more at a decision point. You're at a crossroads where how do I go forward? Should I share my thoughts? If I play the tape forward, do I know what might unfold if I do that? Do I want to insert myself? Because now I'm sort of, then you put yourself sort of in the mix.
Lauren (45:14.72)
Right.
Teri (45:18.624)
I mean, neutrality is always the easiest route and just sort of like, you know, it's the path of least resistance for the, for like for you, you know, for the person involved. So I get when people try to stay neutral because that's what works best for them, I think. But I think it just, I think it just, it's so, every situation is so unique.
Vanessa (45:21.582)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (45:21.824)
Yeah.
Lauren (45:38.282)
I think it also depends on if they're asking for your opinion on where you stand. If they're asking for assistance in repairing a relationship or getting the family back together or things like that, then I think you can offer it if you're comfortable. And just like you said, it just feels like nobody's right, nobody's wrong, and can we figure out a way to move forward, right? But I'm always, it's hard, but I think it's always, it's...
Teri (45:40.724)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (45:42.001)
Mmm.
Teri (45:43.402)
Very true.
Lauren (46:06.718)
You got to be careful if you're not being asked for your opinion on something and then you offer it or demonstrate through your behavior what your opinion is, whose side you're on, whatever. I think that can do more hurt unintentionally because maybe they weren't expecting it.
Vanessa (46:10.606)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (46:24.51)
And there's definitely people, I think, in our family who have taken a side. I think it's the people who are trying to stay neutral, particularly those that are close, who are the most impacted because they're like, well, I don't want to pick a side. I don't want to be involved. Can I just be neutral? And I think there's varied opinions about whether or not they should do that. So I think what you said, Terry, is true. It's easy for me, being far away, that I can truly be neutral.
Lauren (46:28.18)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (46:34.758)
struggling. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
Lauren (46:50.411)
Yeah.
Vanessa (46:53.9)
I think it's harder for some of my family members who don't want to get involved, who are closer. And my advice for some of them is, if you have something that you, like a family thing you want to do, invite everybody. They can figure out if they want to come or they don't want to come. So you're not having to pick a side. So that was my thought. was like, know, just invite everyone.
Teri (47:07.796)
They can choose. Yeah.
Lauren (47:12.566)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (47:15.84)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (47:19.468)
be very upfront, I've invited everyone.
Teri (47:22.421)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (47:22.602)
Yeah, they get to decide how they behave.
Vanessa (47:26.187)
Exactly.
Wilhelmina (47:27.165)
Well, and I think for me, 10 years ago, I might've been like, let's all talk this out. Let's, know, like this is, we can just, you know, if we, if everyone kind of says what they're feeling and thinking, think we'll all clear the air, this will be easy. And I'm not sure that ever works out. Like I sort of think that people get stuck in their own stuff, you know.
Lauren (47:33.481)
Ha!
Wilhelmina (47:53.714)
They get stuck in how they approach issues. They get stuck in how they approach conflict. And you are never going to be able to change that. And so it's sort of like, this is where I guess the Mel Robbins let them theory. It'd be like, I'm going to show up to this relationship the way I want to show up. And I can't control how they're going to show up.
Lauren (48:17.984)
what the other person does.
Teri (48:18.88)
And life is challenging enough as it is. And so I always think of the phrase like choosing calm over chaos and not creating more, which I think aligns with the let them theory. Like let them do that. Let you do what you're going to do. Let everybody spend their time and live their lives in the way that works for them best because life is short. Things are really busy at this stage of life. You have a hundred things going on. So choosing calm over
Wilhelmina (48:26.567)
Well, yeah.
Vanessa (48:26.861)
Yeah.
Teri (48:46.974)
Any type of chaos, I think, is always the better route. I agree with you, Wilhelmina.
Vanessa (48:51.598)
Yeah, I think that's interesting you brought up where you are in your life. Because if I think about who's kind of doing what in this whole situation, that very much plays a role in the stance that they're taking. I would say people who are older generation are very much have picked and they are not changing. Whereas I think some of the younger folks in the family tend to be more of like, you know.
Lauren (48:55.072)
It's true.
Lauren (49:02.954)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (49:03.069)
Interesting
Teri (49:03.232)
Hmm.
Teri (49:09.406)
invested in it.
Wilhelmina (49:10.813)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (49:19.658)
Flexible.
Vanessa (49:20.888)
Flex, yes. my gosh. I had to put Icy Hot on my shoulder last night, because I had this like knot in it. I was like, what is happening to my body? Seriously, I'm wearing Icy Hot on my shoulder to bed. This is fantastic.
Teri (49:23.392)
cognitively flexible, not physically flexible, emotionally and cognitively flexible.
Lauren (49:27.702)
Maybe that too.
Teri (49:35.454)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (49:43.037)
Is there a proportion of like physical flexibility goes down and emotional flexibility goes up?
Vanessa (49:47.758)
And your friends are like, But then there's a peak because like we said, there's this older generation where like.
Lauren (49:48.032)
Yeah.
huh.
Wilhelmina (49:53.573)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. yeah, yeah.
where it's not.
Vanessa (49:57.94)
Somewhere along the line.
Lauren (49:58.25)
Well, we see that with our data with IQ tests, right? It goes like this, and then you start looking at the results over time.
Teri (50:01.62)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (50:02.179)
yes.
Vanessa (50:05.484)
Yeah, so yeah, so there must be a.
Lauren (50:08.436)
It all goes hand in hand.
Vanessa (50:10.092)
Ha ha!
Teri (50:11.059)
Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (50:13.246)
Any other thoughts on any of the topics we've talked about today? Yeah, that was good chat. for anyone listening right now, one of the topics that we just discussed briefly resonated with you and you really want us to kind of dig into it, feel free to reach out to us. You can send us a message on Instagram. You can email us. Let us know if there's any topics that you want us to kind of dive deeper into. Or if there's topic we haven't talked about that you want us to bring up, we'd love to hear from you. Awesome.
Lauren (50:17.12)
Now that was helpful.
Teri (50:18.448)
that was good.
Vanessa (50:42.52)
Thanks, ladies, and thank you for listening to the shrink down.
Lauren (50:43.584)
Thanks.