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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Laura: There's a book that is assigned to seventh graders in my school district about trans kids, and [00:00:05] it's dedicated to a trans kid who killed himself. And I also saw there [00:00:10] was a doctor at a conference giving a speech and talking about this wonderful kid who [00:00:15] killed himself. And so you are sending this message like you'll be some kind of a martyr to the [00:00:20] cause, and you'll be celebrated if you do that.
[00:00:23] Laura: And then they turn around and [00:00:25] while their statements are actually promoting suicide in these children, then they argue, [00:00:30] well, that risk is the reason why we need policies like this. And it's hard to believe they even [00:00:35] have the nerve to make these arguments. They say, well, these kids are at higher risk of suicide, therefore we can't tell the [00:00:40] parents.
[00:00:40] Laura: I mean, imagine saying we think that your child has a condition that puts him at high risk of killing [00:00:45] himself, but we're not gonna inform you of that.
[00:00:49] SKOT: [00:00:50] You must be some kind of therapist.[00:00:55]
[00:00:55] Stephanie: Today I'm speaking with Laura Powell. She is an attorney and founder of [00:01:00] Californians for Good Governance, a non-partisan group advocating for civil liberties and [00:01:05] government accountability in California. And today we're going to talk about M [00:01:10] Valley versus Bonta at the Supreme Court and parents' rights, [00:01:15] especially in California, but also the implications around the country, parents' rights to [00:01:20] know how their children are identifying in schools.
[00:01:22] Stephanie: Laura, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:24] Laura: Thanks for [00:01:25] inviting me on. Stephanie,
[00:01:26] Stephanie: thanks for joining and sharing your [00:01:30] expertise. So, uh, tell us about what Mirabelli v Bonta [00:01:35] is.
[00:01:35] Laura: Well, to go back in California, this really started [00:01:40] in 2014 when, um, AB [00:01:45] 1266 was passed. This dealt with sex segregated facilities [00:01:50] and schools saying that, uh, child can choose which facility, which [00:01:55] sports teams to use based on their gender identity rather than sex.
[00:01:59] Laura: Um, [00:02:00] then in the next couple years, the State Department of Education put out a [00:02:05] page on their website, frequently asked questions about this law, and they included, [00:02:10] uh, sections about gender identity and [00:02:15] privacy and keeping a child's gender identity private from. [00:02:20] Anyone, including the parents, if the child requests and said, this was mandated by this law.
[00:02:24] Laura: [00:02:25] In fact, the law doesn't deal with this at all. So that's the origin of where we have this policy [00:02:30] in California where since at least 2016, every educator in the state [00:02:35] has been told state law requires that you keep a child's gender [00:02:40] identity secret from anyone they want, including their parents, which means they can start [00:02:45] identifying with different pronouns, different names at school, and the parents [00:02:50] won't know.
[00:02:50] Laura: And in fact, we have situations where they're actively lying to the [00:02:55] parents, deceiving them, going to great lengths to cover up what's going on at school in terms [00:03:00] of the child's gender identity. This is not a California only problem. Um, [00:03:05] this is happening in a lot of states. I can't tell you the whole national landscape, but I know there's [00:03:10] stuff going on in New Jersey.
[00:03:11] Laura: This has been a nationwide issue. Um. [00:03:15] So in 2023 is when this started blowing up, I [00:03:20] parents activists had gotten the ear of some people, and one thing that happened is a [00:03:25] conservative school board in California passed a policy saying [00:03:30] that parents would have to be notified if their child started identifying differently at school.
[00:03:34] Laura: [00:03:35] Prior to that, as a offshoot of the California Department of Education's guidance, [00:03:40] the California School Board Association had developed a [00:03:45] policy around secrecy and pretty much every school board [00:03:50] in the state just adopts these model policies put out by the um, [00:03:55] CSBA. So this one school board decided, wait, we're gonna get rid of [00:04:00] that policy and we're gonna replace it with one that says we have to inform parents [00:04:05] if there's a new gender identity.
[00:04:07] Laura: Uh, and so then in the summer of [00:04:10] 2023. The State Department of Education and the State Attorney General came [00:04:15] out, came after the school board for that policy and said it was [00:04:20] illegal, unconstitutional. It was a violation of the children's rights to [00:04:25] privacy for their parents to be informed of what was going on in school.
[00:04:29] Laura: Um, [00:04:30] then in 2024, there was a law passed called AB 1955, [00:04:35] which basically banned school boards from [00:04:40] implementing those kind of notification policies. Although I think this law is [00:04:45] intentionally confusing because they came out and said, well, this will stop the [00:04:50] practice of what they call forced outings, which is what they call, um, [00:04:55] school staff.
[00:04:57] Laura: Informing parents of what's going on with their kids. [00:05:00] So the proponents came out and said, this will stop that practice. And then when people say, but wait, [00:05:05] you know, the constitutional issues and whatnot, they say, whoa, whoa. Well, actually all it [00:05:10] does is confusingly. Um, it, you can't force [00:05:15] the teacher to reveal the information.
[00:05:17] Laura: It doesn't prevent them. It's, it's very [00:05:20] confusing and I think it's intentionally so, so that they can kind of argue it both ways. [00:05:25] And the State Attorney General filed a lawsuit against this, uh, school board, [00:05:30] Chino Valley Unified, and got a preliminary junction in state [00:05:35] court against this parental notification policy.
[00:05:38] Laura: However, [00:05:40] it was because it would've been crafted in a certain way. There were just a few aspects that the judge [00:05:45] found might be problematic. So they basically revised it and continued on. [00:05:50] Uh, the State Attorney general goes around. It was Rob Bonta, who's now the defendant in the [00:05:55] lawsuit. We'll get to. He declares this as a victory that the courts have [00:06:00] upheld his side and said that it's unconstitutional or violates children's rights [00:06:05] to, uh, inform their parents about their gender identity.
[00:06:08] Laura: So this case, [00:06:10] um, Melli v Bonta, which started off as Mirabelli v Olson, [00:06:15] uh, was filed in federal court. This is, uh, a school district in the San [00:06:20] Diego area, and I really think they got very lucky with the judge. And they [00:06:25] also have a legal team that's doing a really superb jobs. I've had my eye on this case [00:06:30] for a while.
[00:06:31] Laura: It's been more than two years. It's been making its way still not [00:06:35] entirely resolved, but, um, the judge at the district court level really understood the [00:06:40] arguments and the issues involved and put out a very strong decision [00:06:45] that really. It goes over everything. It's 52. Well, this one, this is the [00:06:50] order granting summary judgment that came out in just this past December is 52 [00:06:55] pages.
[00:06:55] Laura: Uh, before that there had been a preliminary injunction. This also this case had expanded. It [00:07:00] started off with two plaintiffs that were teachers and they had were being forced to go to great [00:07:05] lengths to lie to parents and deceive them, and they just felt it was [00:07:10] wrong. And, uh, they're also both Christian and they felt, uh, aspects of [00:07:15] being forced to deceive parents violated their [00:07:20] religious beliefs.
[00:07:20] Laura: So there was a free speech ar argument and a, a free exercise [00:07:25] argument. But as this went on, they added. Parents as [00:07:30] plaintiffs, and they also expanded it into a class action that would [00:07:35] include teachers and parents around the state who may be affected by these policies, even [00:07:40] if they're not named plaintiffs.
[00:07:41] Laura: Um, so initially there was a preliminary injunction and now there was a [00:07:45] permanent injunction in December. So the state lost, um, [00:07:50] the, the judge issued his order. We could go over what the order actually says, [00:07:55] although maybe it'll be better if we tease out some of the, um, more, you know, difficult [00:08:00] aspects of how this gets applied.
[00:08:01] Laura: But basically said that there can be [00:08:05] no misleading parents about gender identity. That, um, you [00:08:10] can't require an employee to use a name or pronoun with the child that isn't the [00:08:15] same one they're using with the parent because this, you know, they would be ordered whatever the child said, [00:08:20] you know, call me this.
[00:08:21] Laura: When you talk to my parents, call me this, when you talk to me, they have to notify, [00:08:25] uh. The, the state needs to notify all the schools about this order. [00:08:30] One of the things that also happened over the course of this is, um, that [00:08:35] frequently asked questions I mentioned that informed everybody that there is [00:08:40] a, that AB 2066 passed in 2014 [00:08:45] requires secrecy from parents about gender identity.
[00:08:49] Laura: They took [00:08:50] that page off their website during the course of this litigation, and then they went to the judge and said, well, the case is booked [00:08:55] because we took this page down. Then it turns out though, that [00:09:00] they were still, it's still part of the guidance that's being given out in, um, [00:09:05] training materials for teachers, and they've never changed their position.
[00:09:09] Laura: They, [00:09:10] one of the, the representatives for I think the Department of Education said, no, it's still our [00:09:15] position that this is required, that secrecy is required. So, and they've [00:09:20] also never, you know, repudiated that position that 10 years of, almost 10 years [00:09:25] of. Telling every educator in the state that it is required by law, [00:09:30] that they keep things secret.
[00:09:32] Laura: Um, they just taking down the page [00:09:35] really isn't enough to let everybody know that that was wrong all [00:09:40] along. That that was not the case. That legally, in fact, it's the opposite. So [00:09:45] after the December when in the district court in Southern California, [00:09:50] the state appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, they, [00:09:55] the Knight Circuit Court of Appeals put a stay on the injunction, meaning it [00:10:00] goes back to the status quo before the lawsuit.
[00:10:03] Laura: One of the things you look at [00:10:05] when, if you're a court trying to decide on a stay. [00:10:10] Is the likelihood of success on the merits. So that means they are prejudging the [00:10:15] case to some extent. I here there was a significant record already developed, [00:10:20] but they are saying whether or not they think you're likely to win is one of the factors taken into [00:10:25] account.
[00:10:25] Laura: So the Ninth Circuit said we don't think that the plaintiffs are likely to [00:10:30] prevail in this case. So the plaintiffs go to the [00:10:35] Supreme Court as part of the emergency docket asking them to lift the stay on the [00:10:40] injunction. So that would mean the injunction blocking secrecy policies would go back into [00:10:45] effect.
[00:10:45] Laura: This is not a full hearing on the merits in the Supreme Court. There aren't [00:10:50] oral arguments. Uh, there have been briefs filed, but, and [00:10:55] typically there may not even be an opinion really issued in the case. They're just saying whether or [00:11:00] not the state should be lifted. But the Supreme Court issued a more [00:11:05] substantive opinion.
[00:11:06] Laura: So that happened March 2nd. [00:11:10] Where the Supreme Court came out with an opinion, it was a six three opinion, which is to [00:11:15] be expected. There's six conservative justices and six liberal [00:11:20] justices, um, that said not only, yes, we're gonna lift the stay, at least [00:11:25] re with respect to the parents, they actually didn't lift the stay with respect to the teacher's [00:11:30] claims, but they, um, wrote a longer opinion with some very strong statements [00:11:35] about parents' rights in general.
[00:11:37] Laura: And I'll note that even the [00:11:40] dissent doesn't really dissent on that issue. The dissent is mostly [00:11:45] about procedural issues, and mostly they're criticizing the majority for [00:11:50] issuing such a substantive opinion when they haven't had times to [00:11:55] hear oral arguments and, and, you know, fully develop the record as is normally done.
[00:11:59] Laura: [00:12:00] So even there, it doesn't even signal if they did hear this. As a full [00:12:05] case that you would necessarily be six three. It even could be unanimous, who knows? [00:12:10] But you know, they came out with statements like, [00:12:15] let me just get some quotes. California's policies conceal that [00:12:20] information referring to gender transitions from parents, and facilitate a degree of gender [00:12:25] transitioning during school hours.
[00:12:27] Laura: These policies likely violate parents' [00:12:30] rights to direct the upbringing and education of their children. And again, likely is [00:12:35] here because they haven't heard the full hearing on the merits. That doesn't mean that they really don't [00:12:40] know. They're just, you know, reserving judgment. These policies cut out the primary protectors of [00:12:45] children's best interests.
[00:12:46] Laura: Their parents, parents, not the state, [00:12:50] have primary authority with respect to the upbringing and education of children. [00:12:55] So we have Supreme Court precedents going back like a hundred years on [00:13:00] parents' rights and actually one of those, that last one quotes one of those cases, and it's [00:13:05] really based on long existing case law.
[00:13:08] Laura: We also had last [00:13:10] June, June of 2025, a case, um, Mahmud v Taylor [00:13:15] from the US Supreme Court on parents' rights. And that one dealt with [00:13:20] kindergartens, kindergartners being taught. L-G-B-T-Q books [00:13:25] against without their parents' knowledge or consent. And there have been complaints about these books and [00:13:30] they would not allow opt-outs from religious parents.
[00:13:32] Laura: So this was based on [00:13:35] a first amendment free exercise claim that have violated their rights to direct the [00:13:40] religious upbringing by showing them books. And they weren't just books that sort of [00:13:45] incidentally mentioned the existence of gay people. They were books clearly designed [00:13:50] to normalize being gay, you know, being L-G-B-T-Q, [00:13:55] um, at the kindergarten level.
[00:13:57] Laura: So that case came out and one of the things, [00:14:00] and that was a big groundbreaking parent's rights case, reaffirming the longstanding [00:14:05] precedents going back, um, to around, I think [00:14:10] 1925 is one of the big cases. But what the [00:14:15] court also did here with Mirabelli is they reaffirmed that case. Uh, because I know in [00:14:20] my personal experience as a parent, I've been told by the school that the ma movie Taylor case is just very [00:14:25] narrow, which of course is what opponents always tell you that, that the opinion is just very narrow.
[00:14:29] Laura: Now, [00:14:30] sometimes you have a case, and usually they will signal this by saying, based on these particular [00:14:35] facts, this is how we're finding it. And they really emphasized that that was not what [00:14:40] Mahmud said. And that's what the court reaffirmed here. They chastised the ninth [00:14:45] Circuit for saying something along those lines in their stay order issued.
[00:14:49] Laura: [00:14:50] In the Mirabelli case, they said, no, this was not a narrow case. This applies much more broadly. This Mahmud [00:14:55] was a big statement about parents' rights and they just brushed it aside and it does apply here. [00:15:00] Um, I'll note that there's two [00:15:05] aspects to the arguments here. Um, there is a religious objection [00:15:10] from parents about.
[00:15:12] Laura: Having their children [00:15:15] socially transitioned as they call it. And then there's a substantive due [00:15:20] process claim, which, um, is based on the [00:15:25] 14th amendment. And here what we're really talking about substance due process is [00:15:30] the way we had abortion, uh, as a constitutional right, which of course has now been overturned.[00:15:35]
[00:15:35] Laura: But it's where justices are saying there is such a longstanding [00:15:40] right, that to violate it, even though it's not explicitly written in the constitution, [00:15:45] it exists there and that government can't violate it. Um, [00:15:50] there's been, generally the conservative justices have been critical [00:15:55] of the doctrine of substantive due process.
[00:15:58] Laura: That's another thing that comes up with the dissent [00:16:00] in mirabelli, where the. They're criticized for being [00:16:05] hypocrites because they, they've, um, addressed this. They've, they've criticized [00:16:10] Substative due process in the past, but there is a concurring opinion. Mirabelli from Justice [00:16:15] Barrett joined by, uh, Gorsuch and Roberts that discusses [00:16:20] this.
[00:16:20] Laura: It says, no, no, we were critical of expanding this too much to things like abortion [00:16:25] rights, which are just kind weren't around when the Constitution was written. [00:16:30] They are not so fundamental to the function of society. But in the case of something like parents' [00:16:35] rights, this has always been part of our understanding of [00:16:40] what living in a free society is.
[00:16:41] Laura: Parents raise children. I would, I would argue personally, [00:16:45] if it didn't get written down it, you know, not every right is explicitly [00:16:50] articulated in the Constitution, and I don't think that 250 years ago anybody's thinking [00:16:55] that someday. That would be question something as basic as the fact that parents have the [00:17:00] primary authority in raising their children would be something at risk.
[00:17:04] Laura: And [00:17:05] yeah, in my lifetime, I have not seen it go this far. Conservatives have always [00:17:10] emphasized parents' rights, families more, and progressives maybe look to [00:17:15] the government, but for a bigger role. But never did we [00:17:20] really talk about cutting out parents to this degree where they're [00:17:25] not even allowed to be informed.
[00:17:27] Laura: So that's the basic legal [00:17:30] landscape. I think there's a lot to tease out in terms of what this looks like at [00:17:35] school and what the implications are. I really, I like to. [00:17:40] Debunk the arguments of the proponents of these [00:17:45] secrecy policies. 'cause they really, they don't stand up to scrutiny [00:17:50] very well. And I, I've been looking forward to seeing this litigated and that's why this [00:17:55] case in particular had a good judge who's really breaking down the arguments and where they [00:18:00] don't make sense.
[00:18:00] Laura: And good lawyers who are able to help the judge see where the arguments [00:18:05] don't make sense. I mean, we're talking about, when you look at what you [00:18:10] hear from proponents first, they'll say things like, well, if the child doesn't wanna tell [00:18:15] his parents, there must be a reason now. [00:18:20] Yeah, I guess there could be a reason.
[00:18:22] Laura: Their implication is it, it's abuse. They're [00:18:25] scared of abuse. I don't think it's fair to say that [00:18:30] if a child. Keeps a secret from their parents that it's because they fear [00:18:35] abuse. I don't think that's true at all. I think it's very normal for children to keep secrets from [00:18:40] parents. And then I also wonder what we mean by abuse, because [00:18:45] you do see this trend, right?
[00:18:46] Laura: This sort of, everybody's a snowflake where somehow [00:18:50] an uncomfortable conversation gets described as abuse. [00:18:55] And I think that's,
[00:18:56] Stephanie: you know,
[00:18:56] Laura: the primary reason why a child would not tell their parent [00:19:00] that they now identify as a different gender is because they're concerned about it being [00:19:05] uncomfortable. Or maybe their parents are gonna, you know, monitor their internet [00:19:10] use or who they're hanging out with, what, what they're being influenced by.
[00:19:14] Laura: [00:19:15] But there's also this assumption, and they constantly go to that. Well, these parents are abusive. [00:19:20] There's abusive parents out there, and they're going to harm their [00:19:25] children if they find out they're transgender. In fact, I have never [00:19:30] heard of a case of this happening. I've asked, I really think it would be widely publicized if it had happened.[00:19:35]
[00:19:35] Laura: I have had people share news articles that very sadly, parents [00:19:40] abuse their children physically for bad grades. Uh, legally [00:19:45] parents have to find out about bad grades, so no one's suggesting [00:19:50] that we hide that kind of information from them. And another [00:19:55] problem with this abuse narrative is that, um, teachers are [00:20:00] saying that they suspect the parents are abusive and they're not doing anything other than [00:20:05] keeping secrets from the parents.
[00:20:06] Laura: Of course, they're legally required to report this to the authorities, [00:20:10] and so the proper steps can be taken to intervene. The children are going home to the parents where the [00:20:15] teacher's not there to supervise. They're spending vacations summers with these [00:20:20] supposedly abusive parents and also. [00:20:25] Keeping these secrets does [00:20:30] not, the teacher is keeping the secret, and this is one of the, the rhetoric about [00:20:35] this being a forced outing by telling parents that the child is transgender, [00:20:40] the child is already out at school.
[00:20:43] Laura: In these situations, [00:20:45] everybody at school would know. I mean, typically I guess it's possible. Some people would know and [00:20:50] some people wouldn't. 'cause they allow the child this total control over the information. But the [00:20:55] parent could easily end up finding out this information. And if they [00:21:00] are prone to abusing the child, you're giving them a false sense of [00:21:05] security by promising them that you're keeping the secret.
[00:21:08] Laura: And I actually saw that in [00:21:10] a training video from an organization that promotes these secrecy policies. They, they admitted [00:21:15] that. So the whole abuse narrative falls apart [00:21:20] very quickly. And not only that, what you're seeing them doing. They're saying some [00:21:25] parents are abusive, so we're gonna apply this policy to all parents.
[00:21:29] Laura: And that [00:21:30] is something very explicit in Supreme Court jurisprudence that you cannot [00:21:35] treat all parents as if they're abusive, because only in that case [00:21:40] can the government intervene and, and come between the parent and the child. [00:21:45] So this, by pretend treating all parents as abusive, you're allowing the government to come [00:21:50] in and interrupt the parent child relationship [00:21:55] in all cases with all parents.
[00:21:58] Laura: And that's so [00:22:00] clearly unconstitutional.
[00:22:02] Stephanie: Nicely done debugging the abuse [00:22:05] angle. I, I feel like I have this conversation. More often [00:22:10] than I'd like to in my line of work, but it's, it's amazing [00:22:15] how pervasive these sneaky little lies can be. [00:22:20] Right? Because I've even talked to parents of sound mind, [00:22:25] um, who themselves were concerned about a child having [00:22:30] gender identity issues, who got wrapped up in this narrative.
[00:22:34] Stephanie: It's so [00:22:35] pervasive in the culture, right? This sense that if a child and we're, we're talking, you [00:22:40] know, possibly an 11-year-old, 13, 15, [00:22:45] 17, um, you know, some of these kids are quite young. Uh, if a [00:22:50] kid acts as though, oh no, something bad will happen if my parents [00:22:55] find out, people get sucked into that. And I think it shows such a lack [00:23:00] of judgment because.
[00:23:02] Stephanie: At that age, they're designed [00:23:05] to be dramatic, to be hyperbolic. They're experiencing many emotions [00:23:10] for the first time, right? We all know what middle school, what, what the [00:23:15] reputation of middle school behavior is. It's to exaggerate and [00:23:20] distort and gossip and spread rumors because it's very [00:23:25] exciting having all these brand new feelings coming online in adolescence, and you're learning what [00:23:30] gets attention.
[00:23:31] Stephanie: Um, so. I, I wish that [00:23:35] we were all a little bit more adult about these things, but, um, [00:23:40] that's exactly what happens, what you just described. And so here's how I break it down when I'm [00:23:45] talking to someone who, who's stumped by that, right? Because I, I do, like I said, I get my [00:23:50] parents worried about their own child, who of course they know they would never [00:23:55] harm because of some gender identity issue.
[00:23:56] Stephanie: They're just trying to help them in the appropriate, [00:24:00] cautious manner. Uh, you know, but who are worried, oh, if I tell [00:24:05] my, you know, my 13 year old's friends, parents, that they're in this gender thing [00:24:10] together, what if my kid's friend gets abused? It's like, well, well [00:24:15] hang on. Okay? Because in the event that we're act, in the unlikely [00:24:20] event that we're actually dealing with.
[00:24:24] Stephanie: [00:24:25] Abusive parents we're talking physical or sexual abuse, things that are actually abuse, right? [00:24:30] Emotional abuse. That's where the criteria can become a little bit more [00:24:35] debatable and we can, we can save that section of the conversation for later because there are people who [00:24:40] wanna say that not affirming is a form of emotional abuse.
[00:24:43] Stephanie: Um, but [00:24:45] in the event that we're dealing with things like physical or sexual abuse or neglect. [00:24:50] Knowing what I know about human nature, I cannot imagine a situation [00:24:55] in which a parent was never abusive before until that moment. [00:25:00] But it's because the kid declares a gender identity issue that now the parent becomes [00:25:05] abusive.
[00:25:05] Stephanie: It was just waiting to happen. Nothing else triggered the abuse, right? But [00:25:10] now that the kid says, I'm Transo, that's when the belt comes out. [00:25:15] This is not something I have ever seen happen. And anyone with common sense who really thinks [00:25:20] about this knows that, you know, if a parent is going to be abusive, [00:25:25] they're gonna be abusive over whatever BS you didn't feed the cat.
[00:25:29] Stephanie: [00:25:30] Or like you said, you gotta be on your report card. Um, abuse is [00:25:35] quite arbitrary and an abuser is always looking for a reason to take [00:25:40] out their anger on their victim. Uh, so I think the [00:25:45] whole argument that. We suspect abuse is possible, and so [00:25:50] therefore we're gonna keep this a secret and that'll prevent the abuse from happening that [00:25:55] that argument just completely falls apart.
[00:25:57] Stephanie: You nailed it when you said that. [00:26:00] Essentially we have mandated reporting laws, so if you have a reason to [00:26:05] suspect that this child is in danger at home, [00:26:10] whatever reason you have, you need to call up your local Child Protective [00:26:15] Services and disclose that information. As a mandated reporter myself, I know how it goes.[00:26:20]
[00:26:20] Stephanie: I know that if there's a situation where I'm not quite sure whether it counts as [00:26:25] abuse or neglected uh, or not, my duty is to contact CPS and say, [00:26:30] Hey, I have a situation. Can I run it by you? Hypothetically, I'm gonna describe without identifying the [00:26:35] family, I'm gonna describe this and you tell me if I need to report it or not, and they will tell me, [00:26:40] right?
[00:26:40] Stephanie: And sometimes they say, yeah, go ahead and report. And [00:26:45] then they don't do anything. That's the follow-up is that, you know, they talked to a supervisor and it's nothing, but, [00:26:50] but that's the, that is how we're expected to behave as mandated reporters, whether [00:26:55] therapists, doctors, teachers, anyone who works with children in a professional capacity.
[00:26:58] Stephanie: So the [00:27:00] idea that a family is actually abusive, but you can prevent the abuse [00:27:05] not by reporting what you suspect to the appropriate authorities or by [00:27:10] investigating the issue yourself, but just by, by keeping this one little secret, it's [00:27:15] just such a bullshit argument, and I feel like I have to debunk [00:27:20] it almost every single week.
[00:27:22] Laura: Your trans identified kid won't listen to [00:27:25] reason, because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who knows [00:27:30] how to communicate in an empathic
[00:27:32] Stephanie: yet strategic manner. Our [00:27:35] OGD repair gives you over 120 lessons in the psychology and communication [00:27:40] tools that actually work when normal parenting doesn't.
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[00:28:01] Laura: And you touched on something there too, about, um, [00:28:05] kids being very susceptible to these ideas.
[00:28:08] Laura: And I think one thing that [00:28:10] goes on here too, right? They're telling kids you should be scared.
[00:28:13] Stephanie: Yep.
[00:28:14] Laura: They also do [00:28:15] something very irresponsible, um, on the topic of suicide, that is a big [00:28:20] part of this issue. The arguments being made and you hear public [00:28:25] figures constantly talking about how trans kids are gonna commit [00:28:30] suicide.
[00:28:31] Laura: It's been well known for a long time. There's guidelines out there on how to make [00:28:35] public statements about suicide and you don't say things like that. That [00:28:40] attributing suicide to a cause, an external cause like [00:28:45] that, um, is irresponsible. And you see also this, [00:28:50] that, like, there's a book that is, um, reading, uh, assigned to [00:28:55] seventh graders in my school district about trans kids.
[00:28:57] Laura: And it's dedicated to a [00:29:00] trans kid who killed himself. And so, and I also saw there was a, um, [00:29:05] doctor at a conference giving a speech and talking about this wonderful [00:29:10] kid who killed himself. And so you also are sending this message like you'll [00:29:15] be some kind of a martyr to the cause and you'll be celebrated if you [00:29:20] do that.
[00:29:20] Laura: And, uh, you know, so, and then they turn around and while [00:29:25] they actually, their statements are actually promoting suicide in these [00:29:30] children. And then they argue, well, that risk is the reason why we need [00:29:35] policies like this. And it's hard to believe they even have the nerve to make these arguments. [00:29:40] They say, well, these kids are at higher risk of suicide, therefore we can't tell the parents.
[00:29:44] Laura: I mean, [00:29:45] imagine saying we think that your child has a condition that puts 'em in high risk of [00:29:50] killing themself, but we're not gonna inform you of that.
[00:29:54] Stephanie: Those [00:29:55] two arguments work against each other. You can't have it both ways. So [00:30:00] either a child who declares a trans or other identity at school, [00:30:05] that identity is evidence that they fall into this category that does have high risk.[00:30:10]
[00:30:10] Stephanie: Uh, either that's true or you can [00:30:15] make the argument that this is something that needs to be kept secret from parents. But, but you just nailed [00:30:20] the, the conflict there. Well, if, if indeed this is evidence that this [00:30:25] child is at high risk of suicide. Isn't it dangerous for the parents [00:30:30] not to be informed their child is in a high risk category?
[00:30:32] Stephanie: Like you said, Laura, who's gonna keep them safe [00:30:35] 24 7 when they're home for the weekend and holiday breaks?
[00:30:39] Laura: Yeah, and [00:30:40] we also, this is a myth, you know, this is this sort of emotional blackmail, right? Of, if you [00:30:45] don't affirm there, um, gender confusion that [00:30:50] they might commit suicide. This is how they've gotten parents to go along with this.
[00:30:53] Laura: Um, the A [00:30:55] CLU attorney before the Supreme Court, I think it was last year, [00:31:00] um, was forced to admit that actually there is no evidence that higher [00:31:05] rates of suicide among these kids, there is perhaps evidence of [00:31:10] higher rates of sui suicidality. But you know, to what [00:31:15] extent if you control for the other psychological problems, these kids.
[00:31:19] Laura: Are [00:31:20] usually suffering from, um, if you also consider the fact the messaging they're getting that [00:31:25] they should, that they are gonna commit. If you, you bombard them with messaging that they're likely to [00:31:30] commit suicide, of course they're going to think about suicide at times. So [00:31:35] it's kind of, they've created the problem and then they point to that problem they've created as [00:31:40] one of the reasons why they need the policies that they want.
[00:31:43] Stephanie: Exactly. It's a perfect [00:31:45] storm of comorbidities, which as you just explained, [00:31:50] that, that's what explains the suicide risk factor. If, if you take away [00:31:55] the gender dysphoria diagnosis and just look at what else is going on with this kid clinically, the [00:32:00] suicide risk tends to match the other diagnoses. No big surprise there.[00:32:05]
[00:32:05] Stephanie: Um, and then the combine that with the impressionability. [00:32:10] Of these youth. And as you were saying, the, um, you know, the, the [00:32:15] clinical term for this is the secondary gain of the diagnosis, right? The, [00:32:20] the social reward and benefit that comes from identifying [00:32:25] into this, uh, category of person that's considered like a special class of victim that [00:32:30] gets special protections and things.
[00:32:31] Stephanie: So, um, the impressionability, [00:32:35] the comorbidities, uh, what these kids are being told. [00:32:40] And then there are other factors we won't get into here on, on the [00:32:45] suicide front. We can, uh, I always get asked to speak about that, but I don't wanna go down that rabbit [00:32:50] hole right now to, to bring it back to your, um, [00:32:55] description of what's going on legally.
[00:32:57] Stephanie: Can I ask you about this concept [00:33:00] of parents' rights versus child's rights? So you mentioned, um, when you were [00:33:05] explaining what's going on legally, um, that the argument in [00:33:10] favor of children being allowed to [00:33:15] keep secrets from their parents and having, um, teachers and school [00:33:20] administrators keeping that secret for them.
[00:33:22] Stephanie: You used the phrase, uh, [00:33:25] violation of children's rights to privacy, and I thought that was an interesting phrase [00:33:30] because what is a child's right to privacy? And like you said, you're talking about a situation [00:33:35] where a kid is out a as this new identity amongst [00:33:40] their, their teachers, their peers. So can you explain how the, [00:33:45] the argument was made of this idea that a child has a right to privacy, [00:33:50] specifically a right.
[00:33:52] Stephanie: To get all these people on board with keeping a [00:33:55] secret specifically from their parents. 'cause that's a particular definition of a child's right to [00:34:00] privacy. It's not like a child's right to a private changing room. Right? Like
[00:34:04] Laura: yeah. It's [00:34:05] an absurd argument. And that was one of the things that when this first blew up on the scene, [00:34:10] that caught my attention because it was so absurd.
[00:34:12] Laura: One of the ways that they make this argument is [00:34:15] conflating sexual orientation and gender identity. And you see that happening a lot in every [00:34:20] kind of argument around gender ideology. That the conflation of those two things allows them [00:34:25] to make arguments that may apply to sexual orientation and then [00:34:30] just switch them over and apply them to gender identity.
[00:34:32] Laura: So the argument could be [00:34:35] made, uh, it was made in one case that doesn't have any presidential value, just a lower district [00:34:40] court. But that, uh, a girl in a high [00:34:45] school was holding hands with her girlfriend. She got [00:34:50] in trouble 'cause of the rule against PDA at school and so they told [00:34:55] her parents about the incident and there was an argument made that the school had [00:35:00] violated her right to privacy because it was none of her parents' business that she was holding hands with a girl.[00:35:05]
[00:35:05] Laura: The judge said that argument would be correct, however, they had a good reason to tell the parents because she [00:35:10] was in trouble, so it didn't apply there. But so that judge said, well, yeah, if [00:35:15] you just called up, if you a teacher just inadvertently found out that this child [00:35:20] was gay and just called up the parents to tell them without any reason, [00:35:25] then that might violate some sort of privacy.
[00:35:27] Laura: Right? To just keep their private life private. [00:35:30] Well, that's because sexual orientation sexuality is inherently a private matter. [00:35:35] But what they've done with gender identity is, and legally under California law, sex [00:35:40] and gender identity are the same thing. You are that sex, if you identify as that for purposes [00:35:45] of schools and just about any other purpose.
[00:35:48] Laura: So what they're actually [00:35:50] saying is a parent doesn't have the right to know the child's sex or gender [00:35:55] identity. That's just beyond absurd. I mean, of course this isn't private [00:36:00] information. Um, there's also cases that say something like, you know, in a [00:36:05] situation where there was a man who had undergone surgical the whole thing [00:36:10] and passed as a woman, that when somebody revealed publicly that this person was actually [00:36:15] born a man and had undergone all these medical treatments to make them appear as a woman, that that violated [00:36:20] his right to privacy.
[00:36:22] Laura: And that makes sense too, right, to say, well, this is medical [00:36:25] issues. That's a private thing. Your name and your sex are not [00:36:30] private matters. And once you also reveal them publicly, your expectation [00:36:35] of privacy pretty much evaporates. Um, so yet the right to privacy [00:36:40] issue is ridiculous. Um, I think there was another part of your [00:36:45] question.
[00:36:45] Stephanie: Well, I was sort of comparing and contrasting the phrase child's rights versus [00:36:50] parents' rights. I think the idea of children's rights is interesting here. I mean, [00:36:55] Katie Faust, you, you may know her, she's very conservative and considers herself [00:37:00] a children's rights advocate. And, and she's [00:37:05] defining children's rights in ways that I think much better align with children's needs.[00:37:10]
[00:37:10] Stephanie: Um, whereas this current kind of modern framing of children's rights. I [00:37:15] don't think reflects what's in their best interest.
[00:37:18] Laura: I actually studied a [00:37:20] lot of international human rights before I switched areas. And um, there's the [00:37:25] convention on the rights of the child, which has been ratified by almost every country in the world, not the United [00:37:30] States.
[00:37:30] Laura: And this was always this big criticism in the human rights community. Uh, and it was [00:37:35] seen as the US was too conservative. This was like a progressive, uh, [00:37:40] treaty. But if you look even there, which is considered a progressive [00:37:45] document, the framing refers a lot to parents' involvement in the child's life. [00:37:50] Like the child has a right to have a parent help them.
[00:37:54] Laura: And you [00:37:55] also see laws at the federal level, um, ferpa, the Federal [00:38:00] Education Rights Privacy Act, and it protects. [00:38:05] The privacy of school records, but all of those rights belong [00:38:10] to the parents. The child, if they're under 18, has no right to access their own records. [00:38:15] It's entirely on the parents. This was a bipartisan bill when it passed decades [00:38:20] ago.
[00:38:20] Laura: It was not considered controversial. So yes, I absolutely [00:38:25] agree with that framing that parents' rights and children's rights are not in conflict [00:38:30] except in the rare cases of abuse where the government does need to step in. A [00:38:35] child needs a parent to protect their rights. Taking the parent out of the picture [00:38:40] makes them vulnerable to abuse the um, school [00:38:45] teachers at school.
[00:38:45] Laura: They can say they love the children all they want, but they're [00:38:50] do not love the parent, the children, as much as the parent does. The parent is the person most [00:38:55] likely to look out for the child's best interest. And [00:39:00] so removing that is leaving that child on their own to navigate these issues [00:39:05] without somebody who really loves them to advocate on their behalf.
[00:39:08] Laura: So yeah, I think [00:39:10] sometimes this parent's rights has blown up the past few years as this [00:39:15] conservative movement. It's been dismissed as right wing, but parents' rights and children's rights [00:39:20] are inseparable. And I sometimes say, maybe we should talk about family rights or children's [00:39:25] rights because parents' rights has developed this stigma.
[00:39:28] Laura: But you see this reflected [00:39:30] in the Supreme Court cases over the past a hundred years as well. [00:39:35] Um, yeah, I need to, that, that framing that you're bringing up is absolutely [00:39:40] dead on accurate.
[00:39:41] Stephanie: When we enable the idea that [00:39:45] parents' rights are in conflict with children's rights, I think [00:39:50] ironically it's, it renders children more vulnerable to [00:39:55] exploitation because.
[00:39:57] Stephanie: Of course, any child [00:40:00] or adolescent who's beginning to rebel, beginning to [00:40:05] individuate, whether that manifests in a particularly rebellious manner or [00:40:10] whether that manifests through things like secrecy and triangulation, which is what, um, [00:40:15] these legal cases are about, um, that kid is [00:40:20] going to be particularly vulnerable to anyone telling them what they wanna hear, [00:40:25] right?
[00:40:25] Stephanie: And we know that this is how grooming takes place. And grooming is one of those words, right? It's considered a do a [00:40:30] right wing dog whistle. It's another one of these very loaded terms. But, but it is the reality [00:40:35] that it, when you're just in that phase of reacting, pushing [00:40:40] away that something is wrong because mom said it, because dad said it.
[00:40:44] Stephanie: Therefore, the [00:40:45] opposite of what they said is true. Therefore, I am aligned with whoever [00:40:50] says the opposite. Whoever positions themself. In the [00:40:55] opposite manner. Uh, that's what in my, in my course, they call a gameable heuristic. In other [00:41:00] words, it is a mental shortcut that is easily exploited. It's sort of [00:41:05] like, you know, the whole red team blue team thing, right?
[00:41:08] Stephanie: Uh, in politics, right? If [00:41:10] you have that sort of tribal mentality that all the people who [00:41:15] affiliate themselves with my political party are always the virtuous ones and the intelligent [00:41:20] ones, and the people on the other team, they're the bad guys. Well, that makes it very easy for someone to sort of [00:41:25] hack into your moral framework and say, oh, oh, here's, I, I'm a good guy.
[00:41:28] Stephanie: Here's, I'm gonna put [00:41:30] on my sheep's costume here because I know exactly how to signal to you [00:41:35] that I'm one of the safe, trustworthy people. And I just feel like that's so easily [00:41:40] exploited. And so while parents aren't [00:41:45] perfect. And many adolescents are beginning to develop, [00:41:50] uh, grievances with their parents that have some basis in reality.
[00:41:54] Stephanie: Uh, you know, [00:41:55] they're, they're frustrated with this or that shortcoming on behalf of their parent. It's like, if you think [00:42:00] that's bad, wait till you see what can disguise [00:42:05] itself as virtue that is on your side here. And where that can [00:42:10] lead can lead to a much, much darker place.
[00:42:12] Laura: Yeah, I mean, you talk about adolescents [00:42:15] and of course that's most cases are gonna be happening in adolescents, but there's no bottom [00:42:20] age, just to note this.
[00:42:21] Laura: And they explicitly say this, these could be preschoolers changing their [00:42:25] gender at school without their parents' knowledge. And um, and yeah, this thing about [00:42:30] signaling. What did you say? But, um, I saw recently where [00:42:35] teachers unions are handing out badges for staff and teachers to [00:42:40] wear, saying, I'm a safe person if you're L-G-B-T-Q.
[00:42:43] Laura: And there's [00:42:45] definitely that trend to say, you know, I'm signaling to you I'm safe and you can talk to [00:42:50] me about things that you can't talk to your parents about. And that absolutely [00:42:55] normalizing that is, is terrifying because I'm sure most of the teachers have good [00:43:00] intentions, but it's very easy for somebody who does not to slip in there.
[00:43:04] Laura: Um, and [00:43:05] I've also read so much commentary from anonymous teachers online, so take, take, [00:43:10] you know, with a grain of salt, but definitely say, no. They, we know these kids better than their [00:43:15] parents do this very self-righteous, you know, outright saying, we, we can do better. [00:43:20] We can parent these kids better. Um, you know, and I guess they're hearing like [00:43:25] the complaints from the kids and they're just taking it all at face value that these parents are just [00:43:30] horrible.
[00:43:30] Laura: And so they, they need to step in and be involved in [00:43:35] parenting. And it also goes into broader trends beyond this that goes into sort [00:43:40] of the overall role of schools versus parents that you see across the [00:43:45] board and schools saying, well, the parents might have the wrong values. And that's what [00:43:50] this comes down to ultimately, right?
[00:43:51] Laura: That the parents who have conservative values, [00:43:55] religious values, who don't believe in gender ideology, we need to [00:44:00] bypass them. We need to indoctrinate the kids the correct way of thinking. And these [00:44:05] parents are wrong. So we need to step in. I mean, this is a scary thing when it comes to [00:44:10] ideology and morality.
[00:44:11] Laura: It is not the school's role. And so I think we are gonna see more Supreme [00:44:15] Court cases coming out. I mean, that's why I said this isn't the only one. They seem anxious to [00:44:20] address this issue because it's. It's scary to the extent to which they [00:44:25] are intruding in what is supposed to be the parent's role.
[00:44:28] Stephanie: The road to hell is [00:44:30] absolutely paved with the very best of intentions.
[00:44:33] Stephanie: And [00:44:35] I just wanna call out the hubris of the, the [00:44:40] educator, you know, the bleeding heart liberal educator who, who feels that they have a [00:44:45] relationship with the child that's more special than the parents. And, and to [00:44:50] call it, part of what's going on here is that during adolescence, there's a [00:44:55] tendency to shift idealization from parents to other authority [00:45:00] figures.
[00:45:00] Stephanie: Um, you know, the, the sort of, as, as [00:45:05] as small children, you idealize your parents. Like they're God, they know everything. They, they're all [00:45:10] knowing, all powerful, all loving, you know, middle childhood. [00:45:15] Some of that starts to fall apart. You realize your parents don't know everything, don't control everything.
[00:45:19] Stephanie: [00:45:20] Then in adolescence, the beginning of the drive to individuate kicks in. You see more of the flaws in your [00:45:25] parents. You're more drawn towards the outside world. And so it's very easy [00:45:30] as an authority figure of any kind, whether you're, um, a teacher, [00:45:35] a mentor or coach, a therapist. It's something we need to watch out for as mental health professionals as [00:45:40] well.
[00:45:40] Stephanie: That the kid's looking to you in the ways that you're different from their parents [00:45:45] going, oh, that's also, that's also a good thing that, that dad, mom, and dad don't have [00:45:50] that quality, but I wanna be like that too. You know, they're, they're looking and it's not a bad [00:45:55] instinct for a kid to want to source parts of their personalities and value systems [00:46:00] from a variety of people to look up to.
[00:46:01] Stephanie: That's, that's the idea of the village. Right? It's not a [00:46:05] bad thing inherently, but it's a, it's a risky thing. It's a vulnerability. [00:46:10] And so as, uh, an educator or a [00:46:15] therapist or, or working in any capacity with kids, right at that age. I imagine [00:46:20] that feels really good when you are the one, or you're one of the ones that they're shifting [00:46:25] that idealization onto.
[00:46:26] Stephanie: And with that comes things like triangulation and [00:46:30] splitting. These are psychological terms that I talk about in my course for parents, ROGD repair, [00:46:35] where kids, you know, they're black and white about it, so it's parent bad, you good, [00:46:40] or you know, this quality bad, this other quality good. And then [00:46:45] as the educator or the the therapist who's, um, whose [00:46:50] own vulnerabilities, like their ego is being, uh, you know, kind of tested [00:46:55] here, you feel that pull because you're being idealized.
[00:46:57] Stephanie: Some quality maybe that you've worked hard to [00:47:00] cultivate in yourself or a skill you have that again, maybe the kids don't, parents don't have is, is [00:47:05] being admired by this child. And so I can easily [00:47:10] see how some of these teachers. End up making [00:47:15] those incredibly arrogant claims, like we know the kids better than their parents do or whatever.
[00:47:19] Stephanie: 'cause yeah, they're shifting, they're transferring some of that tendency to [00:47:25] idealize onto you. And meanwhile, the parents are really feeling it on the [00:47:30] opposite end of things. You know, they're feeling pushed away. Teenagers are rolling their [00:47:35] eyes at everything. Um, you know, one of, one of our [00:47:40] kids, as he's moved into his teenage years, he goes from laughing at his dad's jokes to using [00:47:45] the word ridiculous about everything.
[00:47:47] Stephanie: His dad says, oh, you're being ridiculous. You know, [00:47:50] I mean, these, these are the little shifts that that take place. But gosh, it's such [00:47:55] a. Trap, and this is where I wanna kind of go off on that tangent about like the [00:48:00] dangers of childlessness. And I say this as someone who doesn't have my own biological children, which I'm very open [00:48:05] about here, that I'm a stepparent.
[00:48:07] Stephanie: Um, but I, I feel like, yeah, in a culture where many [00:48:10] people are choosing not to have children for whatever reasons, economic, environmental, whatever [00:48:15] it might be, that it's just, it's a vulnerability to look out for, right? It's [00:48:20] not to say, I, I don't take the position. Some people do that. Having your own [00:48:25] children is the only path to maturity.
[00:48:27] Stephanie: I don't think that's fair. I think there are a lot of [00:48:30] paths, but, but it is a, a vulnerability, right? If we don't go through [00:48:35] that particular rite of passage that the maternal and paternal instincts. [00:48:40] Including the desire to leave a legacy, to have an impact, [00:48:45] to shape someone's development in a meaningful way that we can, you know, overstep our [00:48:50] bounds, overestimate our roles, underestimate the challenges that the parents are [00:48:55] facing, and then, and end up believing some, you know, 13-year-old [00:49:00] kids.
[00:49:01] Stephanie: Very exaggerated, distorted, [00:49:05] hyperbolic view of things. Sorry, that's my soapbox.
[00:49:09] Laura: You know, [00:49:10] that's not something that was on my radar, this childlessness until fairly recently and I [00:49:15] had children quite late, so I have an extended adult period of, um, being [00:49:20] childless. So I, you know, now I can kind of see both sides of the experience.
[00:49:24] Laura: But I [00:49:25] also think related to that, uh, it's. Part of what goes on sometimes with these [00:49:30] teachers is, um, you know, we have this extended adolescence, right?
[00:49:34] SKOT: Yeah.
[00:49:34] Laura: [00:49:35] And a lot of times they are relating to the children more as peers than as an [00:49:40] authority adult figure. And I've seen this happen and it, so there are a lot of the boundaries [00:49:45] disappear.
[00:49:46] Laura: And so they feel like it's appropriate to discuss topics with [00:49:50] these children that I don't think they should be discussed at all. And occasionally I see this happen online. [00:49:55] People discuss, and some people will say their experience was different, but in my experience, I didn't know [00:50:00] anything about my teacher's lives, really nothing whatsoever.[00:50:05]
[00:50:05] Laura: And now it's considered normal for the teachers to share all [00:50:10] kinds of things about their personal lives with the kids. And instead, I don't know why they can't [00:50:15] focus on the teaching, but I think that is part of what goes on here for sure. That's how they're relating to them [00:50:20] as equals instead of as authorities.
[00:50:22] Stephanie: Oh, absolutely. And I'm glad you called it out. I had [00:50:25] one teacher. Mrs. Dorn in fourth grade who used us as her [00:50:30] personal sounding board. She would sit us on the carpet and she would tell us all about caring for her disabled [00:50:35] husband. And I think that she had a bit of a martyr complex because she wanted to use us [00:50:40] little fourth graders as mirrors to make her feel better about her herself [00:50:45] for all of her sacrifice.
[00:50:46] Stephanie: But that was my one teacher. I mean, we had other [00:50:50] teachers that, you know, kids would speculate that this teacher was dating that teacher, or that this [00:50:55] one was gay, but nobody actually knew anything. And I definitely feel like that has [00:51:00] shifted in the culture big time.
[00:51:01] Laura: Another thing, I mean, this kind of goes into broader stuff.
[00:51:03] Laura: I don't know if you've [00:51:05] looked much at this, like social emotional learning and uh, what goes on in [00:51:10] schools now, and a lot of this feels like. This sort of ad hoc group. [00:51:15] Therapy happens in classes, and it's led by teachers who really are not trained in this. [00:51:20] And, uh, you know, Abigail Schreyer book Bad Therapy, which I think is just a great [00:51:25] way, I want all parents to read that.
[00:51:26] Laura: So to lay out to, because it's hard to convince [00:51:30] parents that this is potentially damaging, but to sit down with kids and [00:51:35] ask them about their feelings on like a daily basis that's going on in elementary schools. [00:51:40] So kids are supposed to talk about feelings and what's going on in their lives, and they can end [00:51:45] up, it could end up bringing up emotions.
[00:51:47] Laura: Um, I also think there's one case I [00:51:50] personally had with my kids' friend where he, he had been [00:51:55] totally okay. He's, he's very short for his age. I talked to his mom about this a bunch because [00:52:00] I didn't want any remarks to hurt his feelings. She goes, no, we talk about it. He's strong about it. [00:52:05] First week of fifth grade, his teacher is sitting them down and they're asked [00:52:10] to tell the class what it is they would change about themselves.
[00:52:14] Laura: [00:52:15] And he said his height. And then apparently he started crying. This was not [00:52:20] told the mother. I ended up reporting this to the mother and she's like, what? What? He's, [00:52:25] I, I can't believe this. We talk about this all the time. The teacher actually also went and told my [00:52:30] son about this conversation, said he cries in class about his height, and she's telling [00:52:35] other kids it was just so.
[00:52:37] Laura: So inappropriate, but the conversation never [00:52:40] should have taken place. And I'm not convinced, you know, somebody could argue, well, maybe he was upset, [00:52:45] you know, he has his sensitivity about his height and he was trying, wasn't revealing that to his [00:52:50] mom, and he only trusted this teacher. But I also think he was prompted to come up with something to [00:52:55] be upset about.
[00:52:56] Laura: He, to ask a kid who's feeling fine to [00:53:00] ask them to come up with something they don't like about themselves. And then of course, the insanity of having them do it [00:53:05] in front of the whole class. So every bully in the class gets to know where [00:53:10] your insecurities are and which buttons to push. Um, but that's just an example I ran [00:53:15] across.
[00:53:15] Laura: This is the way teachers are pretending like they're therapists and doing these [00:53:20] group therapy sessions without any just so sloppily. [00:53:25] And if you also, I mean, if, what if the child does have. Psychological [00:53:30] issues is receiving treatment and then the parents, then the teachers come in and just [00:53:35] undermine whatever's going on at home that they may not be privy to whatever professional help the [00:53:40] child could be receiving.
[00:53:41] Laura: If a child really has psychological problems they need help [00:53:45] with, they don't need this teacher just coming in and, and bringing that [00:53:50] up in the middle of the school day over and over for them to deal with. Um, so it really is [00:53:55] the whole approach of education, not just this one gender identity issue. [00:54:00] That troubles me a lot.
[00:54:01] Stephanie: Yeah, that's a problem. Asking kids what they would change about themselves. I, I [00:54:05] mean, and, and like you pointed out, it, it's giving away information for a bully, but I [00:54:10] also think that the social landscape has changed so much that, you know, those [00:54:15] types of bullies aren't around so much anymore and that a kid could easily, I [00:54:20] easily.
[00:54:21] Stephanie: Recognize from their social environment that feeling [00:54:25] sorry for yourself and crying in front of the class is the way to get ahead with your peers. [00:54:30] And that I think we should talk about with regard to the trans issue because there is, [00:54:35] again that that secondary gain, right? What are the benefits of [00:54:40] identifying into this category?
[00:54:42] Stephanie: Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back. [00:54:45] Are you a free thinking therapist looking for like-minded community? The Association for [00:54:50] Mental Health Professionals is a sanctuary for holistic critical thinking counselors and [00:54:55] therapists who want to stand firm in our values and reclaim our profession from IDEA [00:55:00] ideologues.
[00:55:00] Stephanie: A MHP offers its members a blog and podcast, monthly [00:55:05] webinars, and an annual conference. Each fall in Texas, visit Association [00:55:10] for mental health professionals.org to join a growing number of like-minded [00:55:15] therapists who want our profession back. Alright, now back to the show. Some of these things are [00:55:20] more in my wheelhouse and, and you're here to talk about your wheelhouse.
[00:55:22] Stephanie: So I wonder if we've actually covered all the [00:55:25] important legal stuff or if there's more.
[00:55:27] Laura: Yeah, I think, I think in terms of the legal [00:55:30] stuff, I mean, that's why this is interesting. I think you don't have to be a lawyer to follow what's going on. You just have to have [00:55:35] some sort of common sense about how what children are like and what parent-child [00:55:40] relationships are like, and, uh, what should be going on in school.
[00:55:43] Laura: It's really, you know, about the roles of [00:55:45] parents and the roles of schools and how those are different and, um, [00:55:50] where, I mean, in my opinion, the schools are just going way too far and, and moved [00:55:55] the, the little bit of area where there was overlap, they've, they've just shifted that line way too [00:56:00] far. One of the questions, you know, that I think is important to talk about that comes up though [00:56:05] is, um.
[00:56:06] Laura: What is this social transition that's going on [00:56:10] and is it a form of treatment? And so that's kind of an area of contention and it's [00:56:15] again, an area. So social transition is when [00:56:20] you start treating the person as if they're the gender they wish they were. [00:56:25] Um, I find it very strange from my point of view, not in your [00:56:30] area of expertise, but, uh, how often is the treatment for a [00:56:35] psychological issue to have everybody else in the world change what [00:56:40] they do?
[00:56:40] Laura: I. And that is what they need in order to feel good. I find [00:56:45] that very strange. I don't know that that ever occurs in any other area, but, [00:56:50] uh, this is one of these areas where proponents of the secrecy policy argue things both ways [00:56:55] because they say, well, we have to socially transition these [00:57:00] kids for their own mental wellbeing.
[00:57:01] Laura: They may commit suicide because they're so [00:57:05] distraught if we don't socially transition them. So that SurePoint to [00:57:10] me as it being some sort of a treatment. But then when the other side argues, well, of [00:57:15] course parents are entitled to know about any sort of psychological medical [00:57:20] treatment their children are undergoing.
[00:57:21] Laura: They say, oh, wait, no, it's not a treatment. [00:57:25] So it's still kind of at an impasse. This got addressed in this Mirabelli case where the [00:57:30] judge said, well, it's been, there's a ninth circuit case that says it is a form of medical treatment. [00:57:35] So I'm just gonna put that aside. I'm not sure that that fully answers the question, [00:57:40] but, um.
[00:57:41] Laura: There's, you know, some experts who were, there's um, [00:57:45] one of the experts on the plaintiff side used to be with WPATH and, [00:57:50] and, um, identifies as trans and does not buy into [00:57:55] this, you know, talks about really the real consequences of [00:58:00] social transition. That's another thing to say. It's just a name and pronoun.
[00:58:04] Laura: It's so [00:58:05] funny 'cause a one, they'll say, oh, this is so crucial that you use names and pronouns that we [00:58:10] want. And then when it comes to the other argument, well, it's just a name, it's just a pronoun, no big deal. [00:58:15] Um, I'm, you know, agnostic about whether it is a big, how big of a deal it [00:58:20] is. Uh, but I think. The argument has been made, and it's been shown to some extent [00:58:25] that, that it puts them on a path, uh, by changing their identity.
[00:58:29] Laura: It [00:58:30] puts them on a path where they may end up medicalizing later on.
[00:58:33] Stephanie: The narrative shifts to [00:58:35] whatever suits in the moment. And this is a feature of trans. If we were to [00:58:40] describe trans as an entity, as a personality, [00:58:45] this is one of its characteristic features. It wants whatever serves it in [00:58:50] the moment. I encounter this psychologically in my coaching work with parents all [00:58:55] the time because we see kids wanna have their cake and eat it too.
[00:58:58] Stephanie: They wanna be a boy when it [00:59:00] serves them in a certain context. A girl, when it serves them in a different context, they wanna be a child when it serves [00:59:05] them, an adult, when it serves them. It's natural of adolescents to want what they want, but it's [00:59:10] natural for the rest of us to push back. And so that [00:59:15] narrative, just like you were saying, it changes based on the circumstances, but [00:59:20] here's the problem.
[00:59:21] Stephanie: When they treat social transition [00:59:25] like a standalone intervention, when really it's not, it's part of a pathway that leads to [00:59:30] medicalization, whether it leads in a matter of weeks, [00:59:35] months, or years. That can be highly variable. And I think that's one of the reasons [00:59:40] that it's being pushed at earlier ages in the schools because the earlier an age they push it at, [00:59:45] the more they can separate out in time the social aspect of the transition from the [00:59:50] eventual medical consequences.
[00:59:52] Stephanie: This is another thing that makes me so [00:59:55] frustrated about gender affirming therapists because part of my work in parent [01:00:00] coaching is sometimes reviewing with the parent the actions that their child's therapist has [01:00:05] taken with them. And sometimes in that role I find myself quite [01:00:10] angry. And so an example of how this often shows up with gender affirming therapists is the [01:00:15] therapist will.
[01:00:16] Stephanie: Sort of half pretend to hear the [01:00:20] parents' concerns, but they'll say things like, oh, don't worry, we're not talking about [01:00:25] medicalization now. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Right now we're just talking, we're just exploring gender [01:00:30] identity. And the therapists love to explain it as if what they're doing is just perfectly [01:00:35] neutral.
[01:00:35] Stephanie: As if, you know, they, they could only do good and [01:00:40] never any harm as if there's no consequences. Right? Oh no, I'm just exploring. I'm not [01:00:45] affirming and I'm not converting. I'm just [01:00:50] exploring, you know, I'm just following the child's lead and [01:00:55] I feel so much rage on behalf of the parents who bring [01:01:00] this sort of stuff to me that their kid's therapist has said to them because.[01:01:05]
[01:01:05] Stephanie: It's not neutral. Like I said earlier, in adolescence, your kids' [01:01:10] tendency to idealize shifts from you as an authority figure to other adults that they [01:01:15] can look up to as well as influencers, peers, and things like that. [01:01:20] So the weight of the authority of the therapist here is significant, [01:01:25] just like the weight of the authority of the teachers is significant.
[01:01:29] Stephanie: And [01:01:30] you know, here's someone sort of rubber stamping identity by treating it as if it's [01:01:35] a valid thing to explore. Where one possible valid conclusion, [01:01:40] they might reach through that exploration as I am trans, or I am the [01:01:45] opposite sex, or I am this other thing. And then what's downstream of that, of course, is medicalization.
[01:01:49] Stephanie: So [01:01:50] the therapists who haven't grappled with their own capacity for harm, their [01:01:55] capacity to be a monster. The therapists who haven't grappled with that, who are, in [01:02:00] my opinion, just attached to seeing themselves as all good. [01:02:05] Um, they separate this out in time and space as well. [01:02:10] It's as if, because the work we're doing today in therapy [01:02:15] by exploring how so and so feels about their gender, because that doesn't immediately [01:02:20] lead to medicalization that those things are disconnected.
[01:02:24] Stephanie: But [01:02:25] social transition leads to medical transition. And [01:02:30] since I just said that people are gonna want an explanation, I'm gonna get on my soapbox and give the brief [01:02:35] explanation of how that works. It's, it's in your brain, right? If you are repeatedly [01:02:40] reinforcing and trusted people in your life are [01:02:45] reinforcing the belief that you must be seen and treated a certain way in order to be [01:02:50] yourself, in order to be okay, in order to be happy, in order to [01:02:55] do what you wanna do in life, in order to whatever positive outcome.
[01:02:58] Stephanie: If that is a belief, you keep [01:03:00] reinforcing and trusted people in your life, reinforce it. And then you engage in behaviors [01:03:05] to reinforce that belief as well. Behaviors like binding name change, you know, whatever the [01:03:10] behavior might be. Then you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. [01:03:15] Neurologically you are training your brain during a really plastic window in your brain [01:03:20] development to feel that way.
[01:03:22] Stephanie: To feel I cannot be okay unless this happens. [01:03:25] Right? So then of course it's gonna lead to medicalization as puberty [01:03:30] continues, as your sex becomes more and more obvious to other people. 'cause you're gonna be [01:03:35] continuously, as they say, quote, misgendered, right? So of course you [01:03:40] are going to want to medicalize if you are socially affirmed.
[01:03:43] Stephanie: That's how it [01:03:45] works. And I'm so angry at the people who try to, you know, [01:03:50] issue any responsibility for their hand in this as if social and medical transition are two [01:03:55] completely unrelated things. 'cause they're absolutely not.
[01:03:57] Laura: Yeah. There was something you said. [01:04:00] I forget what, what's the term you use for, um, the sort of benefits that people see?
[01:04:04] Laura: [01:04:05] Um,
[01:04:05] Stephanie: secondary gain.
[01:04:07] Laura: Yeah, so I don't know if this fits in that [01:04:10] definition, but one of the things I feel like I suspect goes on here is that there's control. The [01:04:15] kids get so much control over the adults all of a sudden, and if you look at some [01:04:20] of the documents related to the Mirabelli case, there are these emails they get passed [01:04:25] around.
[01:04:25] Laura: The kids can change the pronouns and names and they get to say which, what each [01:04:30] person has to say to each other person. They're able to control everything that's going [01:04:35] on. For a kid to have that level of control in their lives is pretty unusual, and I think [01:04:40] that seems to me to be on some level has to be part of the appeal [01:04:45] of doing, of, of identifying a certain way.
[01:04:47] Stephanie: Laura, I call that the toddler at the steering wheel. [01:04:50] When a kid has too much control, think about a toddler's gonna try to grab the [01:04:55] steering wheel because it, they, they're, they're looking for their power. And [01:05:00] teenagers are also looking for their power. What can I take control of? But once that toddler actually [01:05:05] has a hold of the steering wheel, watch out that, that toddler's experience internally is that they're [01:05:10] terrified because they know, they do not know how to steer the [01:05:15] car and that they might be crashing.
[01:05:17] Stephanie: Right, but, but that terror of [01:05:20] I shouldn't be in charge of this, I shouldn't have this much power. I don't know what to do with this much power. I'm not gonna use it responsibly. [01:05:25] That fear is in conflict with the ego. That's like power. Yeah. I, I need that. [01:05:30] Right. So I think those parts of the self are in conflict in a teenager as well,
[01:05:34] Laura: [01:05:35] which is exactly why parents' rights are children's rights that the child does not [01:05:40] want.
[01:05:40] Laura: It's not freeing the child to give them so much power. It's [01:05:45] terrifying for them. So that's why it's always been the parents are supposed to guide them. They're [01:05:50] supposed to only have autonomy within a certain framework and going to a small child and [01:05:55] telling them, they have to figure they can be any gender they want, and they have to figure out which one they are.
[01:05:59] Laura: That must be [01:06:00] terrifying. And that is not giving children autonomy. Makes them vulnerable, makes them [01:06:05] scared. It's not children's rights to take that approach. Um, there [01:06:10] is one more legal thing I, I forgot. I just wanted to, to mention, um, I mentioned [01:06:15] before ferpa, which, which is a federal law that, uh, about [01:06:20] children's privacy.
[01:06:20] Laura: So one of the things that has inevitably has to go on here to hide [01:06:25] these gender transitions from parents, they have to hide. There's always gonna be [01:06:30] some sort of document trail. And in fact, they use these gender support plans. Uh. [01:06:35] Most of them, at least in California, are based on this, uh, nonprofit that created them.
[01:06:39] Laura: [01:06:40] And it provide all this information about who's allowed to know and blah, blah, blah. And [01:06:45] some of them are explicit that, well, you can't put this in the file because it [01:06:50] parent will see it if the child doesn't. If the parent doesn't know and the child doesn't want the parent to know. [01:06:55] So, and there's other ways that they're hiding information in the system.
[01:06:58] Laura: It's hard to discover all of it [01:07:00] because, um, it's hidden, you know. But there has been an investigation by the state, [01:07:05] uh, the US Department of Education into California's practices, and they have [01:07:10] recently, late January, found that these policies do violate federal [01:07:15] law and potentially they can withhold all federal funding from [01:07:20] California schools.
[01:07:20] Laura: I don't know that they're gonna take that drastic step, but, um, that's [01:07:25] another legal issue in terms of, uh, hiding these [01:07:30] things in the records, which again. The law gives no children no [01:07:35] rights. If they're under 18 with respect to their records, all the rights are held by the [01:07:40] parents because we've always understood that's the parent's role.
[01:07:42] Laura: The kid can't advocate for themselves. [01:07:45] So if they're hiding anything in writing, and they also do this on the, um, [01:07:50] uh, online databases, of course now, like there's so much information is stored in [01:07:55] these databases, these companies make. And there was one school board meeting in [01:08:00] California where somebody raised the issue of, oh, or should children be worried that [01:08:05] their information's gonna be revealed to their parents if it's in the database, if they have a transition.
[01:08:09] Laura: And [01:08:10] uh, someone from the district said, don't worry, we have a workaround. And I [01:08:15] discovered online conversations on a forum of school under their real [01:08:20] names, people who worked for schools saying, how do we comply with what they thought was state law to [01:08:25] hide? Information about a child's name from a parent because the parent can access the system.
[01:08:29] Laura: So [01:08:30] they are trying to, they find workarounds in these systems to hide information, and they're [01:08:35] asking the companies openly, could you create a thing so we can hide information without [01:08:40] even, it's, it's shocking to me that they don't recognize that this violates the [01:08:45] law that they're, they're supposed to implement, which they should have some basic training on.
[01:08:49] Laura: So [01:08:50] that's another sort of legal issue that's, that's taking place. At the same [01:08:55] time,
[01:08:55] Stephanie: I vaguely recall when the Trump administration. [01:09:00] Enacted that policy you just described where they, they have the right to revoke [01:09:05] funding from schools that support secret gender transitions. And thank you for reminding me [01:09:10] of that, because I lost track of where that led.
[01:09:13] Stephanie: I think at the time I [01:09:15] was like, wow, this is good news, but how will it play out? I mean, it sounds like [01:09:20] it's not, um, being widely enforced.
[01:09:23] Laura: Well, there's a whole [01:09:25] enforcement issue here, um, for all of this. Um, we'll see how this plays out right [01:09:30] now. The state sued the Department of Education to try to prevent [01:09:35] them from cutting off funding due to the FERPA violation.
[01:09:38] Laura: But even on this whole. [01:09:40] Mirabelli case, I am not [01:09:45] optimistic that it will be followed. And I, you know, I see stuff online where people who say, their [01:09:50] teachers say, under no circumstances, well, I reveal this information if I know it about a child. And [01:09:55] from the higher levels, they are trying to act as if there's some confusion about [01:10:00] what these cases say.
[01:10:01] Laura: Did the Supreme Court really say this? And we don't really know what to do. So [01:10:05] I think we're not, I'm, I'm worried that we're not gonna see a big change in how [01:10:10] things are operating in schools. And they will continue mostly with the status quo. And for the [01:10:15] most part, it's hard to find out. Obviously this is not, does not affect most children.
[01:10:19] Laura: And if you're one of [01:10:20] the parents affected, you may not find out for a while. And then maybe they're, you know, [01:10:25] willing to take the occasional lawsuit from a parent who finds out their child was socially transitioned [01:10:30] and not optimistic because they have been dragging their feet. Uh, the state actually went to the [01:10:35] Knight Circuit Court of Appeals after the Supreme Court.
[01:10:38] Laura: In no uncertain [01:10:40] terms, parents have rights to this information. And uh, they tried to say, [01:10:45] well, the order wasn't quite right. It didn't quite reflect their reasoning. They're trying to get the court of appeals to [01:10:50] second guess the Supreme Court's order, which they [01:10:55] declined to do, but the fact that they're trying to find some way to get around it [01:11:00] is concerning courts move slub.
[01:11:03] Laura: And so [01:11:05] this eventually, I've been optimistic because we've discussed so many ways that the, the [01:11:10] reasoning just collapses as soon as you examine it. And courts are good at examining [01:11:15] those unless the judge is entirely ideologically captured. The logic is gonna [01:11:20] break down really quickly. So I've been pretty confident.
[01:11:22] Laura: Once we get through the courts, [01:11:25] we're gonna come out on the side of sanity in this. But it takes a long [01:11:30] time. But we're already, I mean, that's why it's so exciting to have this early opinion, because [01:11:35] normally, and I think that's probably why they put out the opinion in a emergency docket [01:11:40] instead of where would normally just be a procedural issue because they know that right now there's kids who [01:11:45] are in this situation and they needed to make this statement because, and it's not just California, as we've [01:11:50] said, it's happening all over the country.
[01:11:51] Laura: And they said, well no, this is not gonna be tolerated and we're gonna, [01:11:55] they'll probably take a case that addresses this more head on and strike it down.
[01:11:59] Stephanie: So [01:12:00] enforcement is an issue. And as you've pointed out, there are people working within the school [01:12:05] system who have their own ideology. So a lot of teachers [01:12:10] feel very passionate about this.
[01:12:11] Stephanie: They feel like they might have an opportunity to be a righteous martyr and [01:12:15] sacrifice their career even if, even if the. Politics moves in a conservative direction on [01:12:20] this issue. Uh, they feel very strongly that they're on the right side of history. [01:12:25] Again, you know, as I've said many times on this podcast, the road of road to hell is paved with the [01:12:30] very best of intentions.
[01:12:30] Stephanie: And so those teachers are probably gonna keep doing what they're [01:12:35] doing, even if it's not looked on favorably in the legal [01:12:40] system, especially in places like California. Um, and then there are gonna be the [01:12:45] teachers on the other side of the issue, which I think are outnumbered because the profession, especially [01:12:50] the way that the.
[01:12:51] Stephanie: The way things are now, the profession leans [01:12:55] progressive, but there are the teachers you mentioned like the the [01:13:00] plaintiffs in Mirabelli versus Olsen where this all began. I think you said who, who [01:13:05] are Christian and objected this on free speech, on religious grounds saying they, they did not feel [01:13:10] right. Um, keeping secrets from the kids' parents.
[01:13:12] Stephanie: But it's, it's, it's disappointing, right? When [01:13:15] you go to all this trouble go through these legal processes, they take years, they cost millions of [01:13:20] dollars. I interview people like you on my podcast who have very different expertise than my own. [01:13:25] And you know, thankfully I've had people like Glenna Goldis and El Beth Cipher on this podcast as well.
[01:13:29] Stephanie: But then [01:13:30] at the end of the day, enforcement is still an issue and there's still an issue in the [01:13:35] workplace culture and how things are structured. So. What [01:13:40] can parents do? Let's talk about parents in California who might be [01:13:45] listening to this. What would you advise them their rights are and, and what is, [01:13:50] what does the future look like for them and what can they do?
[01:13:53] Laura: Well, one that just reminded [01:13:55] me, there's one other unresolved question here [01:14:00] that, um, whether there is a right to be notified, right? There's [01:14:05] one thing to say, you can't keep this secret, but does that mean you have to proactively call [01:14:10] the parents and let them know if the child's changing their gender identity at school and [01:14:15] people on the other side are saying, no, absolutely not.
[01:14:18] Laura: The way I'm reading [01:14:20] the, you have these statements from the court saying, parents have a right to know. [01:14:25] I don't see how they could have a right to know, and that school officials, if they know, [01:14:30] don't have some obligation to tell them, but they haven't quite been explicit about that. I think the [01:14:35] district court mostly crafted his injunction.
[01:14:38] Laura: Around saying [01:14:40] that they can't participate in the gender transition. I think that's kind of how he was [01:14:45] thinking of it, that school officials can't participate in a gender transition without the parents' knowledge and consent. [01:14:50] But whether that means they have to call you up if there's a change is a little [01:14:55] unresolved.
[01:14:55] Laura: Um, so, but it would be kind of crazy in practice, right? [01:15:00] So does a parent need to say to the school, I want to [01:15:05] know if my Jo child is showing signs of gender confusion. [01:15:10] Do they have to call up like every week say, because if there's no [01:15:15] obligation to notify, wouldn't that mean every week has there been any change?
[01:15:18] Laura: Every parent has [01:15:20] to, has to contact the school in a firm, uh, proactively make that [01:15:25] request. And it's obviously an unreasonable burden if we're talking about this being a parent's constitutional right to know. [01:15:30] You know, I live in a place where the large percentage of the families are [01:15:35] immigrants. The idea that they would even know about this issue know that they had to take some action to [01:15:40] find out that this was going on is unreasonable in my book.
[01:15:44] Laura: But [01:15:45] yes, I mean, that's what you kind of have to do is ask and put the schools on notice. I [01:15:50] had not been personally, I have two kids in public schools and I'm not personally concerned about [01:15:55] this issue with them, but some of the other things that go on in schools and the rights [01:16:00] under the Mahmud v Taylor case, and I've said, if you are going to present any [01:16:05] materials that are designed specifically to normalize, uh, being [01:16:10] L-G-B-T-Q, you know, not just an incidental thing, I said, I wanna review those materials.[01:16:15]
[01:16:15] Laura: And I've gotten tremendous pushback. I'm told that before I can, [01:16:20] I have to review every material that they may possibly use, [01:16:25] and I have to determine which ones I may object to. They can't just [01:16:30] inform me. They're putting just unreasonable burdens. But I think in terms of [01:16:35] advice to parents, I think you should put them on notice, um, that you are paying [01:16:40] attention.
[01:16:40] Laura: But the main thing too is, uh, paying attention to your kids. You know, [01:16:45] that's another thing is that I feel lucky in a way because I feel like there was a generation [01:16:50] where these things were going on in schools, but it wasn't quite in the public. Awareness [01:16:55] yet. And because my kids are still young enough, I know I have to, I don't want to talk [01:17:00] to them about all these different issues, but I have to inform them about what these things mean.
[01:17:04] Laura: So they [01:17:05] know when they encounter something in schools, they will come home and tell me, you know, and I [01:17:10] feel like I have these little spies. They come home and tell me like, I don't think this was appropriate. Um, this [01:17:15] seems strange to me. And sometimes it's not a big deal. I'll be like, okay, they just mentioned a gay [01:17:20] person.
[01:17:20] Laura: That's not a big deal. They're allowed to, but there's other things where that is not, that is [01:17:25] odd, it's not acceptable. Um, it was, you know, clearly trying to [01:17:30] normalize, um, certain ideologies. So I think that's the main thing, is making sure that your [01:17:35] kids know your values, know what to look out for, that you have an open line of [01:17:40] communication.
[01:17:40] Laura: You know, we try to have dinner every night, which is hard, but uh, so that's a time where they [01:17:45] can say, oh, by the way, the teacher said something weird in class today. And it is kind of funny. I mean, [01:17:50] it's like, oh boy. 'cause they know I'm gonna. Write a letter [01:17:55] and every time, and I feel, I feel like it's just a matter of time before I'm suing the district, but you know, that's me.
[01:17:59] Laura: That's what [01:18:00] I'm like. But I think it, you should speak up when you find something wrong. Even if you're not a [01:18:05] lawyer and you don't know how to articulate it. Um, you know, make sure that your [01:18:10] school's hear from you and make sure you're hearing from your kids,
[01:18:13] Stephanie: practically [01:18:15] speaking. Um, I think that combination [01:18:20] of two, essentially two pieces of advice works well when you're in a [01:18:25] preventative and strong position like yours, Laura, right?
[01:18:27] Stephanie: Where your kids have that open [01:18:30] trusting relationship with you, they understand the reasoning for [01:18:35] your values and concerns, and so you can keep that open dialogue with them. [01:18:40] And therefore, I think you are in a strong position to kind of go [01:18:45] on offense with the school. Let them know that they're being watched and let you know what your rights are.
[01:18:49] Stephanie: [01:18:50] Um, I do wanna say for the parents in the audience who are already dealing [01:18:55] with a kid that's gotten sucked into the cult, that, uh, I do not give that same advice. And [01:19:00] this is where some people misunderstand me. Uh, but it's because I'm not a lawyer [01:19:05] because my strength is in psychology that I, what I, [01:19:10] what I don't want anyone doing is putting a target on their back.
[01:19:13] Stephanie: So [01:19:15] if you're prepared to fight this to the nth degree and you're confident that that's an approach that [01:19:20] will work for your child, then by all means do it. But for the parents in the [01:19:25] audience, um, who, you know, whose kid is already starting to push you [01:19:30] away over this issue, hide things from you. In that event, [01:19:35] um, if you, you know, especially in a progressive place like California, [01:19:40] sort of out yourself to school administrators, as someone who is conservative on this [01:19:45] issue, uh, what you could be doing is attracting the wrong kind of attention for your [01:19:50] kid because these.
[01:19:52] Stephanie: People with their martyr complexes [01:19:55] who, uh, believe that they are on the right side of history, who think that they are [01:20:00] rescuing your poor, oppressed trans child from you, terrible bigoted [01:20:05] parents. They're going to take a really special interest in your child when you let [01:20:10] them know exactly where you stand on this issue.
[01:20:11] Stephanie: So that's where I just advise people to be careful. You know, [01:20:15] unless you have someone like Laura Powell in your corner, um, [01:20:20] and you know, potentially the money and the strength to fight this all the way, [01:20:25] uh, if the gender issue is already infiltrated your family, then you have to be a lot [01:20:30] more thoughtful, a lot more strategic about which cards you play, what you reveal to [01:20:35] other people.
[01:20:35] Stephanie: Because again, there are some people who. Bless their [01:20:40] hearts. They believe that they have the best of intentions, but they will take a [01:20:45] special interest in your child. And you don't necessarily want them knowing [01:20:50] where you stand from a strategic perspective.
[01:20:53] Laura: Yeah, I would, [01:20:55] I would agree with that. Like I said, I have not had this issue myself.
[01:20:58] Laura: Um, there are [01:21:00] people who've worked with the parents, help them, advocates who help them. Like Erin Friday is [01:21:05] someone I know who had, she's a lawyer and had, uh, a child [01:21:10] secretly transitioned at school and has become a ferocious advocate. And she's talked to so many parents going through this. [01:21:15] You know, that's somebody I would refer a parent to somebody like her to get advice if you're already in the thick of [01:21:20] it.
[01:21:20] Laura: For sure. I mean, and I also, yes, there is the thing. You feel like there's, you're putting a target on [01:21:25] your back. I'm already, you know, somebody who's outspoken publicly. But, um, yeah, when I wrote a [01:21:30] letter just saying I would like to review materials to see if we have an issue with them, um, [01:21:35] the response from the principal in part said.
[01:21:39] Laura: Well, [01:21:40] I want to remind you that we have an anti-discrimination policy in this district, [01:21:45] as if me opting my child out of a [01:21:50] lesson that's designed to normalize being trans, makes him [01:21:55] some kind of bully, and were a bunch of bigots. And I mean, that's basically the fact that she [01:22:00] referred to that was basically saying she considers me a bigot [01:22:05] because I said, I want to exercise my constitutional rights [01:22:10] to be informed of what my child's learning on a contentious ideological [01:22:15] issue.
[01:22:15] Stephanie: Well, there it is, folks. Laura just gave a perfect example of [01:22:20] what it looks like, right? And thankfully, like you say, you already have these dialogues with your kids. You [01:22:25] don't need to worry that that person who just labeled you a discriminator. [01:22:30] Um, is going to take a special interest in your child now that they [01:22:35] know what terrible parents your kid has.
[01:22:37] Stephanie: Um, but [01:22:40] again, for listeners, if this issue is in your family, you don't want that same sort of thing to [01:22:45] happen to you.
[01:22:45] Laura: And you know, it probably depends on your kids too. Yeah. I have boys [01:22:50] and, uh, they're pretty, especially the older one is [01:22:55] so outspoken, I feel like in a way that they're gonna back down because they're worried that he [01:23:00] could be too much of kind of a leader and sort of, you know, and some of the issues going on, they don't really want, [01:23:05] uh, I don't think they think they can get him.
[01:23:07] Laura: Right. Isn't this the thing that the kids who end up [01:23:10] becoming victim to this ideology are often in a vulnerable place to begin with? [01:23:15] And, you know Right. It's often associated with autism and a bunch of other situations where they [01:23:20] may not be able to. Articulate as well, what's going on. My kids are able to [01:23:25] understand what's going on and come home and tell me about it.
[01:23:28] Laura: And you know, not every kid is that [01:23:30] good at communicating and, um, you know, whatever. It depends on your kid, whether [01:23:35] my approach with my family is gonna work for you.
[01:23:37] Stephanie: Well, Laura, what else [01:23:40] should we know while we have your expertise here on the podcast about the legal status of [01:23:45] parents' rights, any final words of wisdom?
[01:23:48] Laura: Well, I said before, I'm, [01:23:50] I'm optimistic in the long run, it's just slow, but I think there's gonna be a lot [01:23:55] of res situating in terms of parents' rights going back to [01:24:00] where they are central and the schools are not able to take over. Um, [01:24:05] so I think we're gonna get there. I think we'll see the Supreme Court take up.
[01:24:09] Laura: [01:24:10] Another case, it was kind of hinted that they might take this case. Actually the dissent seemed to be [01:24:15] criticizing them for not taking this case called, uh, foot V Ludlow. And I am blanking on which [01:24:20] state that's from, but I think it's the Midwest somewhere. So guess, as I said, it's happening everywhere. [01:24:25] But that case is pending.
[01:24:26] Laura: Um, that is a parent's rights case. I think we're gonna keep seeing [01:24:30] that. So I think the Supreme Court wants to make more definitive statements about parents' rights. So I am [01:24:35] optimistic about the legal landscape in the long run.
[01:24:38] Stephanie: That's good to hear. [01:24:40] And, uh, you started Californians for good governance. Can you tell us what that's [01:24:45] about?
[01:24:45] Laura: Well, part of it was I'm a lifelong liberal, like pretty far left was [01:24:50] Democrat. And um, coming out of the COVID years, it kind of is when I started to [01:24:55] feel like they had really lost their minds. And I was trying to fill that gap a little bit of [01:25:00] the organizations that had traditional liberal values, like free speech.
[01:25:04] Laura: And, [01:25:05] uh, one of the main issues that got me started there was our state of emergency at the time that had gone on for [01:25:10] years and years and years and allowed the governor to, to. [01:25:15] Put policies out, unelected public health officials could just create policies without [01:25:20] any sort of process that's supposed to go through that.
[01:25:22] Laura: And policies that have major effects on people's lives. [01:25:25] And somehow everybody who used to be considered themselves [01:25:30] liberal had sort of abandoned these basic principles of democracy, of, of, [01:25:35] I mean, it's a long understood thing. Long-term states of emergency are dangerous to [01:25:40] democracy. So in California, you know, with our government, that's, uh, one [01:25:45] party state and really they in my book have just really [01:25:50] abandoned all these principles that I thought were principles of the Democratic Party [01:25:55] that I grew up with.
[01:25:55] Laura: Um, so, you know, trying to get things back to a [01:26:00] place where we have some sort of functioning democracy, where we have some respect for [01:26:05] basic rights, um, just. Really [01:26:10] in California, there's so much work to be done, and I'm sure you know anybody in Oregon, wherever you [01:26:15] are, if you're in a blue state, you can relate to that.
[01:26:17] Laura: That really, they've just gone off the deep [01:26:20] end. You know, I was a lifelong leftist, but this is just so far [01:26:25] cutting parents out of their children's life is just so far off. Um. [01:26:30] The deep end of what was considered a normal opinion to have when I was [01:26:35] younger, and I'd like to see us get back to a little bit of sanity.
[01:26:38] Stephanie: Well, thank you for everything that you're doing. [01:26:40] Laura, where could people find you?
[01:26:41] Laura: Mostly on Twitter at loelle, esquire? I, I [01:26:45] don't have time for multiple platforms much, but I, I put a lot of stuff out there and [01:26:50] about all kinds of issues. I mean, this is one issue that has my interest. I try to focus on California, but not [01:26:55] exclusively.
[01:26:55] Stephanie: That's great. Well, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your expertise. It's been a pleasure.
[01:26:59] Laura: [01:27:00] Thank you. Stephanie.
[01:27:02] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some [01:27:05] kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to [01:27:10] rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice.[01:27:15]
[01:27:15] Stephanie: And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your [01:27:20] therapist. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, [01:27:25] half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help [01:27:30] navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for [01:27:35] parents, ROGD, repair.
[01:27:39] Stephanie: Any [01:27:40] resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and [01:27:45] links below Rain or shine. I hope you will step outside [01:27:50] to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman. With all its [01:27:55] sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:28:00] [01:28:05] [01:28:10] [01:28:15] [01:28:20] [01:28:25] [01:28:30] [01:28:35] world.