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Welcome to Birth, Baby!, your go-to podcast hosted by Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly, seasoned birth doulas and childbirth educators from Austin, Texas. Join us as we navigate the intricate journey of pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum care, offering invaluable insights and expert advice. Through candid interviews, personal anecdotes, and evidence-backed content, we aim to empower families with the knowledge they need to make informed decisions. Whether you're seeking guidance on prenatal care, birth planning, or navigating the early days with your newborn, we've got you covered. Tune in to Birth, Baby! and embark on your parenthood journey with confidence.
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Welcome, this is Birth, Baby!
Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.
Ciarra is a birth doula, hypnobirthing educator, and pediatric sleep consultant.
Samantha is a birth doula, childbirth educator, and lactation counselor.
Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey.
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Hey, everybody, today we have Kimberly Isburg with us.
She is the Communications Manager for Healthy Birthday, Inc., which is the nonprofit that created Count the Kicks program.
And that's what we're having here today to talk about.
She is the mom of two boys and a passionate maternal health advocate.
Thank you for being with us today.
Thank you so much for having me here.
Awesome.
So can you start us off by telling us about what Count the Kicks is and how it came to be?
Yeah.
So Count the Kicks is an evidence-based stillbirth prevention program.
It started in Iowa in around 2008.
And really, it's the idea of five women who came together in their grief.
They all lost daughters to stillbirth or infant death in the early 2000s.
And most of them were told that stillbirth isn't something that happens a lot anymore, that it's very rare.
And yeah, it all happened to them in kind of a short time frame.
And they were connected with each other by friends and through their church communities and really came together in their grief just to help each other heal and support each other and to find a way to move on.
But eventually their conversations turned to, what can we do about this?
We were told that this isn't something that happens a lot, but it happened to all of us.
And in fact, learned that stillbirth is something that happens to more than 21,000 families every single year in the US.
So these five Iowa moms, they created something in our state, the first stillbirth registry just to start collecting additional data and information on when this was happening to families.
And then at a conference, they learned about some research out of Norway that showed a 30% reduction in stillbirth when moms are educated on getting to know their babies' movement patterns in the third trimester of pregnancy.
And they said, hey, if they can do this in Norway, we can do this here in the States.
So they worked with our local health department and a marketing company to put together the Count the Kicks program, which is really positive, empowering, mom-focused program that teaches moms how to get to know their babies' normal movement patterns in the third trimester and empowers them to speak up if their babies' movement ever changes.
It's so huge because that's crazy to think that it's something we can do on our own, like something that people who are pregnant can help reduce this risk by 30%.
That's a huge percentage.
It is a huge percentage.
And the research also on stillbirth shows that at least one in four stillbirths can be prevented.
So it's something that we're not talking a lot about with our pregnant moms.
It's an outcome that just isn't really discussed yet.
It's happening to roughly one in every 175 pregnancies in the US and it can be prevented.
So it's something that we need to be talking about.
And being that we are 100% of the population, well, I guess 50%.
We also deal with partners, but 100% basically of the population that we serve are pregnant families.
So we get asked these questions a lot, like, you know, my baby may be changing their amount of movement or the way that they're moving.
So can you tell us how people, when they should start?
How many weeks pregnant should you start counting your kicks?
Yeah.
So you should start counting your kicks at 28 weeks, which is really that beginning of the third trimester of pregnancy.
If you are having multiples or you're considered a high risk pregnancy, you can start counting at 26 weeks.
And the reason that they recommend this time of your pregnancy is that's when the baby really gets into a more recognizable pattern of movement.
So counting kicks, you're going to be able to see those consistent patterns and those consistent movements throughout your day.
Yeah, I think if it was any earlier, we would have a bunch of very nervous people all the time, because definitely different people feel different amounts early on.
It's really variable.
Yeah, definitely.
So how does someone actually do it?
How does someone count the kicks?
I know a lot of our families, they hear about count the kicks.
We talk about kick counting.
A lot of OBs talk about kick counting, but they find it really intimidating or anxiety producing.
So I'd love to talk a little bit about that.
Yeah, so count the kicks.
Really the goal is to make it simple and easy, a time that you can look forward to and really just enjoy that time every day that you're bonding with your baby.
So once a day, you do not have to be counting your kicks all day every day.
It's just once a day.
Pick a time when your baby is normally active.
So again, when you're in that third trimester, your baby's going to get into a pattern.
So maybe you notice every day after you have lunch, your baby's really moving and grooving or at the end of the day, when you sit down on the couch and you're just relaxing, that's when your baby moves.
So you want to pick one of those times every day where you know your baby is typically moving.
You're going to time how long it takes your baby to move 10 times.
And what you're looking for are any types of movement that are intentional.
So kicks, pokes, jabs, rolls, swishes.
The only thing that doesn't count are hiccups because those are involuntary and those are going to be those kind of rhythmic, really light, kind of fluttery feelings of movement.
So pick a time, count how long it takes your baby to move 10 times.
The other thing you want to pay attention to is the strength of your baby's movements.
So with Count the Kicks, you're going to rate that on a scale of one to five.
So one is light fluttery movements that you might feel kind of early on when you first notice your baby moving.
And five is going to be those big, strong kicks and jabs that you might be able to see on the outside of your belly.
So again, changing the strength or how long it takes your baby to get to 10 is a reason that you want to call your doctor, go in and get checked right away.
So timing how long it takes to get to 10, rating the strength of baby's movements, and then just continue to do that every day around the same time.
And after a few days, you're going to begin to see like how long it takes your baby normally to get to 10 movements.
Yeah.
When what I love is that you guys have an app that is making this easier for everyone, which is amazing.
And also I love the mind shift that you mentioned of switching it from being this anxiety producing thing to being this connecting time with your baby and bonding time and really learning to pay attention and learn about their movements.
So, you guys are recommending with Count the Kicks app, which is free, y'all.
How amazing is that is just do it one time a day or should you be doing this multiple times a day?
And if you only do it once a day, are you supposed to be also counting kicks at other times of the day?
Yeah.
So with Count the Kicks, we recommend once a day, but you can absolutely count more than once a day if you choose.
Again, with the app, like you said, it does make it really simple and easy.
So you're just going to open, find it in the app store, search for Count the Kicks, open it up.
There's a big red button that says start counting.
You click that, and then you're going to see this teal footprint and you're going to tap it and it's going to fill up the kind of bar on the outside until you get to 10 movements.
It'll stop the timer.
Then you rate the strength.
Take any notes.
Pretty straightforward.
But if you want to count more than once a day, what we recommend is that you set up two separate pregnancy profiles.
So if you're going to count in the morning, you might call that your morning baby.
And then you would always count in the morning with that one.
And then if you're going to count in the afternoon or evening, you could call it your evening baby.
But again, you're wanting to compare apples to apples with this.
So your baby's movement at the same time every day so that you're really you're getting to know what is normal for your baby at that time of day.
Because again, every baby, every pregnancy are different.
The way that my baby moves is going to be different than the way that your baby moves.
And what is key is getting to know your baby's normal.
Yeah, I think that's a huge part of it is that not every person is the same.
We've had people say, Oh, I feel a change in the movement from my baby.
We get those texts quite a bit, actually.
And our recommendation is usually to call their provider because if we can't give medical advice, as doulas, that's something that's way too sensitive for us to just be like, it's probably fine.
But a lot of times their provider, when they call them, are like, drink something sugary and cold, see if that helps.
Can you touch on why that's good advice or not?
Yes.
So the latest research really shows that kick counts movements are best monitored without things like drinking juice or eating something sugary or drinking ice water.
The way that I try to explain this is if you are not feeling well, if you have the flu, let's say, and maybe you drink a glass of orange juice or a piece of candy, it might give you a small burst of energy.
You might feel like you could do something for a little bit, but it's not going to last and it's not really fixing what's actually wrong with you.
So babies are the same.
They're a lot like us.
If they are not feeling well, if they are not getting what they need in the womb, their movement is going to change and that's a really important sign that we should all be paying attention to.
And it's a reason that mom and baby should be checked right away.
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it gets so tricky, especially for, you know, mamas who maybe have a little bit more anxiety around their pregnancy and, you know, they're like paying attention to movements all day long and they're like, oh, well, baby, you know, my baby's been moving and now they're not moving.
You know, what, what should I do?
And it's, it's hard to explain, you know, like what is really going on there.
So what about like sleep cycles with babies and that sort of stuff?
Like are we looking at the movements, the movements at like specific times of day or should we be seeing those like 10 movements in an hour or whatever, like all throughout the day?
So babies, again, like, like I said, around the beginning of the third trimester, they really do get into a pattern.
So they are going to have sleep cycles, they're going to have times where they're active during the day and times where they're, they are sleeping, they're not as active.
But again, every baby, every pregnancy are different.
So my baby may be active at a time when your baby is sleeping.
And that's why really what what is the most important thing is knowing what's normal for your baby in the times of day when your baby is normally moving.
And that's going to be different for every mom and for every pregnancy.
That's what I really love about this app creation.
I don't even know how long this has been around, but it wasn't that long ago that I learned about it.
So it's very new to me.
And my favorite part is that it's kind of like, sorry, but especially when you're pregnant, our memories are crud.
And we're not going to remember like, oh, how long did it take last time?
We're not going to be sitting down writing down this data, you know, or a lot of us aren't.
And it's remembering it's comparing from the first time you did this.
And now it's been two months since you started and it's still showing.
Like it shows you if this is your norm or not your norm.
And I love that because as your doula, if you're texting us saying that the movement feels different, we don't know what that means.
Does that just mean that your baby is bigger so the movement actually feels different?
Or is it that it's not very strong or is it that it's not as frequent?
And this really dumps it down for you and really takes away that guessing game.
Yeah, absolutely.
We like to say it's like having a data download for your mom in tuition.
You can see every day for the last two months, my baby's been moving 10 times within 20 minutes and today it's 40 or 60.
And that's a change.
That's a change for your baby.
And yeah, if you create an account, we recommend that everyone creates an account so you can really begin to see that history over the long term, over that entire third trimester.
And then also there is the ability within the app to set a reminder.
So you can know every time you want to count at 2 p.m.
You can set that reminder so the app says, hey, it's time to count.
And also you can take the data within your app, the kick sessions, and you can actually text that or email that to your provider.
So again, you have that data to back up, like something is off, something is not right.
My baby's movements are feeling different.
You just mentioned, yeah, you just mentioned that they, what if it's like 40 or 60 in 20 minutes compared?
So that brings up a great question.
Is there a such thing as the baby moving too much or is it just not enough that worries?
So again, we certainly heard stories from moms that shared how their baby had this like sudden wild surge in movement, but the research on that is still kind of developing.
There's not as much research on what that might be or why that might be a cause for concern.
Again, the bottom line is if your baby's movement has changed, whether it's a decrease or a rapid increase or change in the strength of movement, all of those things are indications that you should get yourself checked by your provider right away.
Because it never hurts to go get checked out.
You hear that from L&D nurses and triage all the time.
They would so much rather you come in and we see a happy, healthy baby in there who was just, you know, having a good old time trying to freak us all out than us to miss some of those warning signs that could be a sign of something more serious.
We would much rather be safe than sorry in this situation every time really with anything pregnancy related, but especially this.
So true.
We hear that all the time too.
Like they would rather check and make sure everything is okay and give you that peace of mind so you can go on with your day.
Yeah, absolutely.
So we often hear people repeating this like narrative of babies are going to start moving less at the end of pregnancy.
And you know, it's normal for them to kind of slow down in their movements.
Can you shed some light on whether or not that's true?
Sure.
Again, this is a myth.
It's not true that your baby is going to run out of room or slow down.
Babies are going to continue to move up to enduring labor.
If you're counting around the same time every day, it's going to take, it should take the same amount of time for your baby to move 10 times.
The types of movements that you feel may change a little bit.
There may be more jabs and swishes.
You're not going to feel those big kicks and rolls that you might have felt earlier in pregnancy, but you're still going to feel the same number of movements within the same time period.
Yeah, I think that part is so important because their movements do change a little bit.
You know, they get bigger, a 28-week baby and a 38-week baby.
That's two very different sizes.
They're going to feel very different, but you are still going to feel them.
And as baby moves into position for birth or goes from breach to head down or whatever, those movements are obviously going to feel different, but they're still going to happen.
Absolutely.
Yeah, this is such a hard thing, especially if I'm a hypnobirthing educator as well.
So I'm always toeing that line of talking about, you know, pregnancy is natural and normal.
And unless there is an issue, we need to kind of chill out about all this stuff, you know, in the absence of medical indication.
And then we have people ask questions about this stuff.
And I want to err on the side of caution, you know, but we don't want to tell people to run to the doctor, you know, every week.
But this is such a great tool so that people can take out the big question mark and have the actual data on whether or not they need to go get checked about something or have something just checked out just for a second.
And maybe it is totally nothing.
And maybe mom doesn't feel well and she kind of forgot to do it that day or did it a little bit later, a little bit earlier, whatever.
But at least we're getting checked out.
So yeah, I really struggle with this.
I'm like not wanting to instill fear, but also want to make sure people are cautious.
Yeah, I think what we find from our app users is that using this app really gives them the peace of mind to know what's normal for their baby.
You know, if you have a really active baby by doing this every day, you're going to know if your normally active baby has slowed down or if their movement has changed.
And we sometimes hear, like, kit counting can increase anxiety.
But what our app users tell us is that 77% of them say that doing this reduced their anxiety about the well-being of their baby.
And 84% of them say that it helped increase their feelings of bonding with their baby.
So there really are benefits to doing this daily practice that are beyond just, you know, the basics of counting your baby's kicks.
Oh, I love that so much.
So do you have any piece of advice that you'd like to leave parents with?
Yes, I think it's just the importance of doing this.
There's a lot of pregnancy information and advice out there, but this practice of kit counting every day in the third trimester, it should be as common as taking a prenatal vitamin or knowing that you put your baby in an infant car seat to get them home safely or once they are born and they are at home sleeping on their back without anything in the crib.
This should be a common practice for all expectant parents in that third trimester of pregnancy and it really is a way to reduce your anxiety and help improve your chances of having a healthy birth outcome.
Yes, I love it.
So can you share with our listeners how to find out more about your organization and also how and where to find the app?
Sure.
So the app is free.
It's in the Google Play Store and the iOS Store.
Just search for Count the Kicks and you'll see a bright yellow clock and you can download it there.
It's available in 21 different languages, so really accessible to lots of people.
If you don't want to count on the app, we do also have paper charts available on our website and a web-based counter, which can be great if you don't have reliable Wi-Fi access and you want to count somewhere like your friend's house or the library.
Our website has a lot of great information about kick-counting and some of the myths that we commonly hear, that's countthekicks.org.
Then you can also find us on all of the social media platforms, so Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and YouTube.
Well, haven't you just thought of it all?
21 different languages, a chart, I love that.
That's really great too because we do have families that for whatever reason, for all sorts of different reasons, don't want to use an app.
Sometimes it's just like they're like me and feel like they're 90 years old even when they're not.
Some people, it's a privacy issue and not wanting that information online on an app.
I think that that's so cool that you've made it accessible to people who don't have a smartphone.
They can do it on the website or print out one of those charts.
Gosh, I love this so much.
Thank you so much for being here and sharing this information that could literally be life-changing for some people.
Thank you so much for having me and we are just grateful for the opportunity to get this information out there so that we can reach more expectant parents and help more babies get here safely.
Perfect.
And we'll have all that information linked in the show notes for all of you wonderful listeners.
Thank you so much for coming on, Kimberly.
This was great.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby!
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