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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Inviting Sages to Speak with Justin Koehn
00:00
All right. Well, welcome back, Justin, to the podcast. It's great to have you here. Thanks for coming back. Oh, man. Chris, thank you for having me. I would give a lot to be sitting on a couch across from you, but I will take this any day. This is awesome. Likewise, likewise. It's unfortunate that we are states and states away from each other. So, Justin, I wanted to talk with you today. You just had a birthday.
00:26
or you're in the process, like when is your birthday? Has it passed, is it coming? I don't know exactly, I should know, I'm sorry. No, you're good, you're good. So my birthday is in July, so it was this summer. July 20th, I turned 40 years old. Woohoo, okay. Yeah, big birthday, supposedly. Well, yeah, so I mean, there is something about that number that I don't know, a lot of men can resonate with, and I think there's people who are saying the 50 is the new, or.
00:55
50 is the old 40, whatever, 60, I don't, it doesn't, the number doesn't actually matter, but there is something psychologically that begins to happen. When we take our age and we double it and we have a little bit of a like, oh crap, like what does this actually mean for my life? So I am 10 years older than you, I am 50, and I pray to God that I don't make it to my 100th birthday. So just, I am hoping that I will see him face to face long before then, but.
01:22
I wanted to talk with you today because you did something really interesting. And a couple of weeks ago I received, it's actually right here on my desk. I received a letter from you asking me some questions. And I'd love to have you share like what that letter was about, who that letter went to, just a little bit of context of what, what that was going on there for you. Yeah, absolutely. Love to. So I sent out a letter to a handful of men.
01:51
that I really deeply respect. Guys that I would say these are like sage men, like the wise, wise men that are ahead of me on this journey that I've called brothers or fathers of some kind, fathers of faith for me, right? So I have a list of men in my life that I kind of maintain a list of what I call kings and sages. And these are just men that God has given me.
02:17
who are with me on the journey, who have played a key role in my life, who I respect deeply, that have, you know, we have shared story, they have given wisdom, whatever it is, right? We've gone through a bunch together. And I basically looked through that list and I said, okay, of all these men, like this treasure trove of men that God's given me, who are the guys that are either 10 years older than I am or their kids are 10 years older than my kids?
02:43
because I've got littler kids right now. So my kids are only, my oldest is 10, my youngest is 2. So we're like right in the midst of little kid mode, right? We don't have any teenagers, like thank the Lord. And everyone sleeps through the night and no one's in a crib anymore. So- CB It's a sweet spot. What a sweet spot. RW It's such a sweet spot. Every day, my wife and I are just like, oh my gosh, it's so hard and it is so good. So good.
03:13
But turning 40, like you said, this birthday, I think for a lot of us is a fairly big deal. I mean, just mathematically, statistically, that's probably halfway, right? Like you said, you might get 40 more years. Statistically, you should, but don't count on anything more than that. That'd be a best case scenario kind of deal. And also, just in my own heart, culturally, I think we kind of recognize there's something different or there should be.
03:42
something different about men in their 40s versus like their teens, 20s, 30s. Right. So as I started processing thinking, okay, this is the decade. Where am I at in my story, in my journey as a man? Right. What stage am I in? What's going on? It really led me to kind of think through, okay, well, what were my teenage years like? What were my 20s like? What was going on my 30s? Right. And so...
04:10
Teenage years, right, all super formative, all sorts of stuff is brewing, all the seeds of masculinity are either getting planted or getting watered or getting hacked to pieces or whatever is happening, right? But lots going on there. The 20s, when I look back at my 20s, I was like, man, I had this inkling that something wasn't quite right, right? I was like, there's something missing here. I know I'm an adult. I don't feel like an adult most days.
04:39
and I don't feel like I'm making adult decisions very well. If I had to unfortunately sum up most of my 20s with the exception of getting married and having our first daughter, I made a lot of mistakes in my 20s, like a ton of mistakes. The reasons for that are deeply rooted. Why did you make such bad emotional decisions out of brokenness? That's a lot of story there. But in general, I was like, man, I made a lot of mistakes in my 20s.
05:09
In my 30s, that was where things are becoming more clear. I'm understanding my story more. I understand the places that were missing that I didn't get growing up or got wounded or whatever, began to understand some of those mistakes in my 20s. And I felt like I spent a lot of my 30s trying to grow, heal, and undo mistakes I'd made in my 20s. And so...
05:38
It felt like a very retrospective or introspective and like looking backwards kind of decade, right? Where a lot of story work, a lot of excavating, digging through what happened? Why am I this way? Why do my wife and I have the same fight every single time? Like this is embarrassing. That never happens to me. No. Like, there's a point where, like my engineering brain is like,
06:03
I could flow map this. I could diagram out step one. This happens step two. Like, why? Like how do you get to these patterns? Like, it kills me. Anyway, so it was a lot of processing that stuff, right? Yeah. It was almost no looking forward, right? And we were in survival mode, right? We've, so my daughter was born at the beginning of my thirties. It was been like little kid in elements of survival mode for a decade, right? With that as well. Sure. We had across the country move.
06:32
massive change of career, a bunch of stuff happening in the thirties. So as I came to my birthday this summer, I'm reflecting on some of that. I'm like, man, I would really like my forties to not feel like I'm just undoing the mistakes of my thirties for a decade. I can handle one of those decades, but I don't want like stack it up. Like I'm just always not too back to back decades of just cleaning up the mess. Right. Yeah. And so I was like, well, I have no idea.
07:01
what the forties are going to hold for me. What I like, how, I don't know what to do to change that, what to look forward to, but I know there are massive changes coming, right? Like by the time I turn 50 with you, I will have at least one, if not two kids moved out of the house. The other two are going to be teenagers, right? And we're going to be kind of on the steps of, oh, empty nesting is like- Right around the corner. Right around the corner for us, right? As we turn 50.
07:31
And I also know it is a critical, critical time in my children's lives. Right? As my daughters become women, as my son becomes a man in his early teenage years, oh, such critical, critical ages. And I want to do well and father well for them. I want to father well. I want to be intentional in that. There's some key elements as you know, through these decades of reflection that I missed.
08:00
Right? Not because I had a bad dad, but because we live in a broken world and not fully fathered no matter what our background is. Yeah. And so I want to do my best for my ability to impact their story. I want to hand them the best I can. So a lot of this kind of perspective. So I'm like, well, how do I figure out what to do in my 40s? I'm like, oh, I know a bunch of guys who have been through their 40s. And so that's who I sent my letters to. Yeah.
08:29
That was the kind of reason. Oh, well, Justin, I love, I asked you about this because I love your, I love so many things about this. I love your vulnerability in inviting other men to speak into your life. Like you are entrusting them with your heart and you're asking them to speak into your life. And it's, some of the questions are around like advice. What advice would you give if you, you know, to you specifically or back when, you know, when you were looking back on your forties,
08:59
have wanted those kinds of things. But there's a vulnerability to it that is this welcoming of like speak in, father me, say something, help me understand, give me a vision of what it is. So there's the intentionality of it, there is the vulnerability of it. And then I think what you just said was so important is that you have one more decade where your children are in your home. And...
09:28
What you're not asking about is how do I father my children? You're asking how do I become the man that God designed me to be so that I can then father my children in a way that offers them the kind of fathering that I long for still in me. I love that, I love that. Do you mind if I read a couple of the questions so that listeners have a sense of what you're asking? I don't know, there's like 20 questions, 15 questions on here, so I'm not gonna read them all.
09:58
But like, what do you expect is going to change for me in this next decade? What would you have loved for someone to say to you at 40? What will I need for this next decade? How do I live without regret this next 10 years? What treasures have you found along your way? What would you put your time towards in this decade? I mean, these are brilliant questions. Absolutely brilliant questions.
10:27
And I just think like, oh, for if I had had your wisdom at 40, to invite other men into my life when I turned 40, the way that you've invited men into yours. I just think like, because here I am, I am 50. I look back over my 40s. And I think I have double stacked those decades of reflection and like the undoing of what I've needed to, you know, where I've been. And oh, I just.
10:55
I wish that I had had that kind of wisdom at the age of 40 to, to invite guys into it. Justin, I have a question back at you. What is it that you are longing for in the answers that you're either receiving or hoping to receive from these letters that you sent out? That's a good question. Well, first, first Chris, like on the, on the wisdom to send it out, I feel like again, this has been one of those things in life that was a gift, right? It was not.
11:23
wasn't my Genesis, right? There are many other men who have gone before us, who have done similar things, that have written those questions and really sought out the sages in their life. And so my hats are off to those men. And the only reason I think I had the perspective is because I have some of those men in my life, teaching as close friends, whatever it is, but like that's what gave me that perspective, I think, to send it out. So, man, hoping for in the response.
11:53
I think...
11:57
There's just this continual longing in me to fully know that I'm a beloved son. Right? Like that at the deepest, chorus level, my subconscious, like whatever the source of my reactions would be, would come from the place of knowing you are a beloved son, you have a good father.
12:23
who is orchestrating and authoring all things for your good and to truly live from that place. So I think I have an inkling of that. I have moments where it's like, oh, that is so well felt. My group of brothers we met just this last week and one of the guys asked, well, how much do you know that you're the beloved son? I'm like, 7%. I'm a solid 7% right now. Right?
12:53
I said it in a joking tone, but I was like not joking in the slightest, right? Yeah. Like, no, like maybe 7% of the time, I like from a deep level, I'm able to acknowledge and live from this place where I understand that and I'm fearless and brave and compassionate and giving and like generous because my root to my identity is like the core is connected to the right source.
13:22
And that's where I'm living from. So just getting a sense, just a taste of what it's like to live from those places. I'm like, I want more of that. How do I get more of that? Right? And so my hope is for the wiser men who have gone that extra decade to be able to be some road signs, right? Some pointers that say, look over here, right? Like chase in this direction. Don't spend your time doing these other, you know.
13:53
Don't worry about this, but, but go this route with your soul. That I think is, is kind of my hope with that. Your phrase just now, go that route with your soul. Oh, that is so good because I feel like so many times we as men are like, what should I do next? Tell me what to do. And should I take the job? Should I not take the job? Should I move? Should I not move? Should I have another child? Should we not have another child? Like,
14:19
What should I do? And I think what you're asking for is more like the nautical direction than a roadmap. Yeah. Take this bearing versus take this road. And I think we are so concerned that we're going to take a wrong right or a wrong left or the right right or the right left along the path versus I'm going in this direction. Go this way with your soul. That is such a great phrase. I hope there's so much freedom for guys that are listening to.
14:49
just have a sense that at the end of the day, God is far more excited about your glory, far more excited about your sonship than he is worried about your sin or your problems. And that he will give you that sense of direction, that sense of go this way. And even some of the scriptures, I just think about, remember the ancient paths, go that way, and you will find life. You will find life for your soul. So I love that you've solicited
15:19
other men to speak into, others speak into your life in this kind of way. It's so vulnerable and so needed. And I love that you are saying, hey, I'm not the one that thought this up and all this. And you did move on it, which is significant. I was so blown away when I got this letter in the mail, both honored and just blown away at, we need more men who will take this kind of intentionality towards their 40s.
15:49
30s, 20s, 50s, whatever it is, so that we can be the men that God designed us to be. So thank you, Justin, for leading us in this. And even if it's not your Genesis, as you said, you still are fanning and deflamed, hopefully some ways of being for some guys that are listening. So, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that is right because that is my first thought is like, do I start the business or not? Right? Do I go left? Do I go?
16:17
That is like that's our natural inkling. And I think years ago and I don't know how I came to this belief or how it was handed to me but because you'd asked me like there's no questions in there about fathering. Although that clearly is this like massive, massive passion, huge on my heart to father well. But yeah, I didn't ask any fathering questions hardly at all, right? And I know there are a million hurricanes of teenage drama that are coming toward me in these next years.
16:45
You know? Good luck. It's on its way. I can vouch for that. It is on its way, my friend. Yes. So, but I go back to like my Alicia and my wife, we kind of have this core belief. And again, I know where it necessarily came from. But the best thing for our children, we think, is our marriage. Like the single best thing for them is going to be the health of our marriage. And the single best thing for our marriage.
17:14
is going to be the health of our individual souls. Right? And so for me, it's like walking back, like if I wanna be a good dad, if I want my children to be raised well, to be fathered well, I need to make sure my marriage, as much as I can control, is in a healthy, good place. Cause this is creating the atmosphere that they are living and breathing every day, right? It's creating the patterns that they're witnessing. It's creating like all this stuff for them.
17:44
But my marriage, the way in which my wife and I interact is rooted in the state of where our soul's at. Where's the health of our soul? And so that really has kind of been my guiding light of not to be selfish, but to have the priority of like, Lord, if I'm not in the right place with you at an intimate, deep level, I can't be in the right place with my wife and I for sure won't be in the right place with my kids. Yeah. Right?
18:13
really that being the focus of like, what is the good way that I should go with my soul now? And I did like, I think it was one of the two questions in that series about my wife, right? Cause there are things where it's like, I don't understand her feminine journey that well. And there are some pieces that I want guys wisdom in, right? Cause she's on this journey of healing as well. We're the same age. She also just turned 40. And so I asked a couple of questions on that, but primarily, primarily it was like,
18:43
Where do I go with my soul this decade? Yeah, yeah. The way I like to think about that, Justin, is kind of going upstream. And I think you said that really articulately, that the state of the marriage is what is most important for the kids and what's most important for the marriage is the state of my soul. And I just love going upstream from parenting to the marriage and then upstream from the marriage to you as an individual. And you said, I don't want it to be selfish. And I actually think that that is the most selfless thing.
19:11
because when we are tending to our souls, it is unto something greater. It is both unto life in me, which then yields life in others. That there is an unto, there is something greater and the selfish thing is to not do this work. It's selfish to just make, you know, hyper-focus on the right turn and the left turn and to not do the work of actually exploring these kinds of things. So I love it. I love it, love it, love it.
19:41
Well, Justin, thank you for sharing about that. And I would love even to have you on again, to hear what maybe some of the most important responses have been that you received from these men and maybe come back in six months or even a year to kind of sit with, all right, now we're hitting the 41 mark. And what does this look like as you enter into this next season of your life? So thanks so much for sharing about that. That would be awesome. I think there's already.
20:09
I mean, you kind of said and I've heard back from a number of guys, the initial response from pretty much every single guy has been not like, okay, here are the answers, right? Here you go. I answered your questions like the response back from the men that I've heard back from has unanimously been wow. Thank you for the questions. I feel honored. Like I didn't I didn't realize it like it didn't cross my mind that it would be actually a gift.
20:38
to the man who received the letter as well. A gift that invited reflection, a gift of affirmation of like, yeah, I deeply respect and value you. You are a sage in my life. I hope this letter is tangibly naming that element. So that has been really encouraging, right? Just the fruit that has been born that was not in any way intended, but it's been taken over and the spirits used it to profit other places is incredible. Yes. Yes.
21:08
All right. Well, thanks again for being with us today, Justin. And thanks for inspiring us with this idea, this letter. And hopefully you men that are listening to this, take a moment and double your age, see what happens inside of you when you take that 32 and make it 64, or you take your 40 and make it 80. You know, what happens inside of you? And maybe, maybe, just maybe something like this is, is a way that you might want to go as well. So thank you, Justin.
21:37
Thanks for being on the show again today. Absolutely. Thanks, Chris.