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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I have a mother of an autistic
child who has been seeing
enormous milestones with her kid.
And as most of you who listen to this
show or watch this show know, I'm usually
talking to practitioners, but it occurred
to me that we should really hear from the
people who are the service users as well
as the service providers, and what works
for them what could be better, Mm-hmm
what w- could be better
known and all of the above.
So I've got Layla Alia with
me, who's she's very nervous
she says, but she shouldn't be.
Yeah.
Because in addition to being an autism
mum, she's an extremely ⦠It's
us who should be nervous, 'cause
she's actually an ex-NASA scientist.
As well as an autism mum, and she's been
taking data, which she's gonna share with
us, on her son's progress, and I think
this will be of enormous use to all of
us, and hopefully this data's- Mm-hmm
actually gonna go and be
part of a peer review study.
So Layla, thank you so much
for coming on the show.
Can you give us a little
background about who you are and
how you arrived in this space?
Laila Rahmatian: Well, thank you River,
and thank you for having me on the show.
My name is actually Layla Alia Rahmatian,
and but I say Layla Alia because it's
easier to pronounce, so I do like how you
introduced me that way, and thank you.
I wanted to first of all thank
you for having me on the show and
taking me on as your client and
introducing me to this amazing tribe.
It all started honestly when my first
son was born, and it was during COVID.
And when he was 18 months old, I went to
a doct- to my doctor who I really liked.
I actually went through several doctors
to pick before I selected because it
was during COVID and they were just
not listening, and I was trying to
find a doctor that was really aligning
with my my needs and my interests.
And I have to thank her for that
because at our 18-month appointment,
I-- she mentioned something to me
that I was not prepared for 'cause I
had to fill out this sheet and said
something about pointing and eye contact.
And she basically looked at it and she
says, "I think we see a sign of autism."
And I was like, "What?"
And I I would say that
the-- I was shocked.
I was a little bit-- I was in
denial, I'm not gonna lie, because
I'm like, I don't even know what an
18-month-old c- milestone kid needs.
I mean, I was told that I didn't start
talking until I was four years old.
And the interesting thing was she's like,
"Well, let's just, let's see how it goes."
And then fast-forward a couple months
I took him to summer's camp, and this
lady whom I think was so courageous, and
I, I, I really do think that b- and I
did contact her later and thanked her.
She said Does Donatello
respond to his name?
And I said, "Yeah, he does."
And that was, like, the first thing that
was off of that form that's, that I had
to fill out about name name and pointing.
And then she said, "How about
you call him a different name
and I call him Donatello?"
And so because he was running away,
and that was another sign, and
he wasn't responding to his name,
and that's when she approached
me about a concern of safety.
She did not say a word about
anything, 'cause I know professionally
she didn't wanna get in trouble.
She can't diagnose.
So I basically said, "Hey, George."
Eh, but first she said, "Donatello,"
and she, and he wasn't responding.
And then I said, "Hey, George," and then
he responded and came up to me, and that's
when I knew it was my voice, not his name.
And so then I went back to the
doctor, and I told the doctor I
would like to get him tested for
autism, speech delay, everything.
'Cause I had been looking up tests,
and so she said, "Okay, we'll do it."
And she was very respectful as well.
And then we did, in September of
20- 24, this was June of 2024 that I
noticed that we need to get him tested.
Fast-forward to September 2024, I have
all these things written down, that
is when we did this online assessment
the, of a doctor I was referred to.
And I told the doctor, "I'm not
gonna buy the results because this
is an online virtual assessment."
And this lady was not even the doctor.
And so I said to her before we started,
"I wanna do in-person evaluation."
So we did online, and which was an
assistant, and then we went to a
autism center, and we had this person
by the, by the title of a BCBA,
which I didn't know what that meant
at the time, and it was also a video
recording of him with this BCBA.
And I-- Looking at Donatello and
the other kids at this autism
center, which I had never been
in, I was like, "There's no way.
My kid's high-functioning.
There's just no way."
And so we're just gonna rule it out.
Like, we l- my husband and I, we
just said, "We'll just rule it out."
And then we told the family like, "Yeah,
it- we're j- it's not a big deal, but
we're just gonna see what happens."
And then October 3rd came and I
was driving and my husband and I,
we were off to go to a meeting and
I got a phone call that honestly
I, I, I couldn't even believe this
was on a phone call while driving.
The doctor calls me and she's
like, "I have the results for you."
And I said, "Okay, well I'm
driving just to let you know."
She's like, "Okay, well
are you free to talk?"
And I said, "Yes, but I'm, I am
driving so sure, go ahead and tell me."
And at that moment I thought, "He doesn't
have it because she knows I'm driving."
And she said, "Well I just wanna let
you know your son has autism spectrum
disorder and he's at a level two."
And I said, "What's, how
many levels are there?"
She's like, "There's three."
And I said, "Which one's the most,
what does three and two and one mean?"
"Well three is the most
severe, one's the less severe."
I was like, "You said two?"
And I blacked out a little bit and she
just said, "Okay this is the protocol.
What we do from this point on is
that we recommend Donatello gets
enrolled at a autism center and if
the therapists recommend 40 hours
I highly recommend you take it."
And I paused and she said,
"How do you feel about that?"
And I said to her, "I feel like
you're out to get my insurance money."
Rupert Isaacson: Really,
Laila Rahmatian: you said that?
And-- oh, I did.
Interesting.
I did.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah, I said--
And then she, she was like, "Oh.
Oh my gosh."
And I just started bawling.
I, I was uncontrollably baw-bawling.
It was the feeling like someone got a
bat and hit me in the face, and then
told me that your child is handicapped.
Rupert Isaacson: That feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Yeah.
I resonated with that one.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Especially
when you said that, too.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: After.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's
a, it's a bat to the face.
The way that- It's a
Laila Rahmatian: bat to the face.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
And I just couldn't believe.
There was no bedside manners.
It was emotional.
I, I called my husband.
He says, "We need to cancel the meeting."
I was gonna keep going and say,
"No, we're gonna have the meeting."
He's like, "No, we need to cancel."
And that day w- it was October 3rd, which
ended up being a day I'll never forget.
Mm.
And in 2024.
And so, basically, my husband and
I-- My husband had to stop working.
We're both engineers.
You know, I, I worked at NASA as a child.
As a child, I've always wanted to work
for NASA, and then I, I thought, I
thought that's what I wanted to do for
the rest of my life, like be an astronaut.
Born and raised in Houston.
But the-- hearing all this stuff,
like, "Your child has a problem and
this is the solution," I was just
having a really hard time hearing that
information in a very unsympathetic way.
And so we canceled.
My husband met me at the house.
I don't even know how I got to the house.
We hugged, we cried, we
called the doctor again.
Her, her response was, "Are you
guys now calm and regulated?"
And I said, "Sure, but what
are you talking about?"
And she was, again, not very
being helpful at all and and
saying, "Well, I gotta go now.
Let's make an appointment for talking.
I, I I wanna wait till you
guys are calm and unsettled."
By that time, we called my hus- my
son's school director, who was amazing.
They-- We were, we were going to
this small Christian half-day school,
and my teachers, my-- the teachers,
I told them that we are getting him
tested, but do you notice any signs
of Donatello responding to his name?
They're like, "No."
But-- And then the director of
the school, who honestly was
a saint, and an a- an angel.
Call her whatever you wanna call her.
I think she was-- she really
saved us and calmed us down.
She said to us a couple weeks prior
that, "All I see is that Donatello
likes to play independently,
and he likes to line things up.
And but mostly he's
obsessed with firetrucks."
So when we called her, I said,
"We have some news to tell you."
I find out that she knew what I
meant by that 'cause she told the
entire staff, "Watch the two kids.
We're gonna stay longer today.
Dismiss the kids."
And so when we arrived, my husband and
I just bawled, and she calmed us down.
She calmed us down and she
basically said to us, "Do not
put him in an autism center.
There are other options, and I
can guarantee I've been doing this
for 25 years, and I know one girl
who was with us, and she canâ¦
You can barely tell that she has any
signs because we did early intervention."
And she said to me, "I'm gonna tell
you right now, a lot of schools
are not gonna accept services, but
I will accept services and I will
open all my doors for Donatello.
Anything for Donatello."
I didn't know any of this, of what
the rules and regulations were,
Rupert, but I knew that I trusted her.
I didn't trust this doctor.
And so I got a list of 20 ABA centers from
this doctor and also contacted all these
ABA places, 'cause that's what I was told.
That's the number one protocol, is ABA.
And I think within 24 hours,
I became my son's advocate.
I called and made aâ¦
I started making a blacklist and aâ¦
Not blacklist.
I don't know what the otherâ¦
Like a, a go list.
And 18 of them, through word of mouth
from other ABA centers and people,
they were like, "No, no comment."
They they will keep the clients
until they get a new client, so
they're not focusing on the child.
And the two that I picked were travel ABA.
And they the one was amazing, and
I really like them, and then Iâ¦
But I did go and visit an autism
center the next week because I
had people tell me, like, "This
is a non-franchise ABA place."
And I went to this other autismâ¦
So I went and visited an autism center
to see, like, what is the big deal?
'Cause I didn't like the franchise one.
And I'm learning quickly
that there's a franchise.
I'm learning quickly that
what is this industry?
'Cause I had no clue.
I know everything about
the space industry.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it is- Yeah, I, yeah.
I know about the auto- ADHD industry,
'cause I have ADHD and dyslexia.
I was, you know, before doing
what I'm doing now, I was becoming
a c- I was a coach for ADHD
kids as a tutor and a coach.
And before that I was, you know, doing,
having an online business before I left
corporate America and getting married.
So I have, I had different hats,
but the last industry that I was
in was the ADHD industry, and I
never knew anything about autism.
I heard of stigmatic stuff.
I heard ofâ¦
It was always like this thing of I, I
hope my child doesn't have Anything di-
I, I waited a while to have kids because
I was afraid to have kids, and I wasn't,
I hadn't held a child for 21 years.
So holding Donatella wasâ¦
I had to practice on Cookie Monster
how to put a diaper on a kid.
So anyways, so then learning about
this industry of the kids and, and
then I go to this autism center,
and there are these three women that
started this place, so kind, so nice.
I have notes to go over this.
And I, within 10 minutes of being in
that facility, I broke down crying
and I said, "I am so sorry, this
is not the environment for my kid."
It looked like an asylum.
There were neon light- You described it.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Because
environment is so important in
Laila Rahmatian: what we do.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Describe what
alarmed you about this environment.
Laila Rahmatian: It was all white.
It was a, and a, it was a
building that was, that they
used as a, as a therapy building.
There was a small little playground
that was like t- like a rubber but
almost c- it was very much eroded,
like a small section of a playground.
And then inside I saw
kids that couldn't eat.
I see kids that couldn't walk.
I saw a diaper changing section.
I saw this strip of neon lights.
And, and there was just very
little windows, and each room
was like all white and it felt
like an asylum without a jacket.
And it was just, it was just no,
no color, no, nothing fun, and it
looked extremely, I wouldn't say run
down as the autism center that I was
getting my video assessment, which
I found, thought it was in person.
But I told the ladies, 'cause what
happened was an autistic kid came up to
me and hugged me, and I hugged him back.
And he had headphones on, and
that was also another thing.
I wasn't used to seeing
a kid with headphones on.
And I just hugged him, and
then I looked at the lady.
I said, "I'm so sorry, this is
not the environment for my son.
He is high-functioning."
And they took me to the room,
and they said, "It is okay.
It is okay if this is not
your child's environment.
We just wanna let you know."
And they gave me advice.
I call them also another great messenger.
They
didn't convince me to stay.
They didn't convince me.
They actually gave me advice saying, "If
you do go to another autism centerâ¦"
'Cause we started this autism center
because of the franchises that we
were working for, we were turned away.
"Never feel like you can't go inside an
autism center, because some autism centers
will not let you enter the building
until your appointment time is over.
You- our place, we allow
parents to come in any time."
And I'm like, "W- it
should always be that way.
W- wh- what?"
And then and then they also told
me, "We also do not penalize you
if you wanna go on vacation."
I'm like, "What do you mean
you don't penalize me?"
He's like, "Well, some autism centers
do not want you to take more than
X amount of days off from therapy."
I said, "Why not?"
He said, "Because this is
a 40-hour week of therapy.
40 hours a week is actually
40-hour work week."
I said, "So the 40 hours that I was
recommended for my kid wasn't for my
kid, it was for the person's pocket."
Ah, I see.
All right.
So then thatâ¦
I, I kept them on my positive
list for people that may need
that environment, because they
said, "We do not take the most of
Rupert Isaacson: your ben- Is there
anybody that needs an institutional
asylum white wall environment?
Is there any human on the planet
that needs that environment?
Laila Rahmatian: I don't.
I f- where I am now, no.
But back then, back then,
all I knew was that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: And,
and all I knew was that.
Okay, so that is not okay for me,
but I see kids that are there, and
they even had kids that they had
photos of them graduating out of ABA.
Mm.
You know, they were doing that.
But to me, it was still in the
back of my mind is this it?
Is this the best we can do?
Yeah.
I'm justâ¦
I'm honestly disgusted.
I do like those ladies, and if
they're ever listening to this, I
don't wanna put their business down.
I think they were j- they were
doing what they knew was best,
but they did it their way.
Rupert Isaacson: Me too.
But it, it, it is so strange to me.
And I'm sorry, I didn't mean
to interrupt you, sorry.
But it is so strange to me that because
we all know, everybody knows what an
ideal and lovely environment consists of.
Yeah.
There are, there are some
personal preferences.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But if you look
at this library behind me, or if
you look at, a beautiful park or if
you look at the kind of place that
you would spend money to go to-
Laila Rahmatian: Absolutely
and
Rupert Isaacson: spend time in.
There's a reason why lovely hotels,
health spas, retreat centers,
et cetera, look the way they do.
And if they didn't look like that,
you'd want- you wouldn't book them.
And if you went to them, you'd say-
Yeah ⦠"Sorry, I want my money back.
I'm notâ¦"
You know?
There's a reason why romantic restaurants
have soft lighting and muted colors- Yeah
and there's a reason, to soothe
the nervous system, there'sâ¦
We know it.
Yeah.
We know it.
Of course, we know it.
And so the fact that one could assume,
even with good intentions, that a sterile
institutional fluorescent strip lit white
environment is going to do anythingâ¦
That's what prisons look like.
That, that- It felt like one
is going to do anything other
than make a human suffer-
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: because we know
It's astonishing to me.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
But anyway- No ⦠you
voted with your feet.
You went away and said, "Okay."
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
I, I, I, I went away
and I was like, "N- no.
A- absolutely no.
My son's not gonna be in this
environment because I don't wanna
be there in that environment."
And so that's when I told myself, wherever
my kid goes, I would wanna be there too.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Laila Rahmatian: So it has,
it has to be fun for me, yes.
So, like you were saying, I-
' Rupert Isaacson: Cause my, for
my nervous system, it's probably
right for their nervous system.
Laila Rahmatian: Exactly.
Basically.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yes.
No, and so I, so I will say this.
Interesting point is my son
was diagnosed in October.
Mm-hmm.
But June of months prior to that,
my husband comes up to me and he
said, "I was, I've been given an
opportunity to come to Germany," To
do a- ⦠to do a, a, yeah, with his
job to do a job assignment in Germany.
And I, we have done we've, we did a expat
assignment before having kids in, in Asia,
in China, and then his company says, the
company's asked me to come to Germany.
So I was like saying, "Say yes.
Let's go, let's go."
And then Donatello's diagnosed
with autism in October.
Right.
And we said, "Let's put this on pause."
And and we did.
So I started to form a team.
So within 24 hours, I
became my son's advocate.
I said no to autism centers.
I said, "Everything is gonna be
done at the school because I love
the director, I love the school,
he's doing great at the school.
I'm gonna bring the people to the school."
And so that's when I found travel ABA.
That's when I found a speech therapist,
and a lot of these types of therapies
were outside of the conventional method.
Like, I did travel ABA, which means
a therapist is with Donatello and
they're following me, my son to the
environment I want him to be in.
Before knowing anything about what
you did, you do, Rupert, I was saying,
"The environment that my son's thriving
in, you come to his environment.
The speech therapy that I wanted done,
it needs to be a type of intensive
speech therapy, not a once a week for
30 minutes that insurance will allow."
So I paid out of pocket for
speech therapy by people that
understood life In that environment.
So my speech therapist was actually
a therapy mom, and she was also
telling me "You just need to
be really mindful that theseâ¦
Some, some therapists don't
understand what life is like."
And so it was just such
a nice thing to get.
Suddenly this door opens that I don't
wanna go into, and these messengers are
telling me advice as I walk through.
And itâ¦
So it was October.
But then I said, "You know what?
Before I start anythingâ¦"
Because even the a- the travel ABA company
said they met Donatella and they said, "I
think we're on the fence with this kid.
I don't know if he does have autism."
And so they were-- I was impressed by
them to not just take him right away.
They're like, "I really think we need
to get a second opinion because he's
coming up to us, he's speaking to us,
she the environment you have him."
So I got a second opinion,
and this doctor wasâ¦
I was referred to by four therapists.
Her name is Dr.
Horn.
And and, and did not have any
affiliation with insurance.
And that was when I realized that doctor
who assessed my son I find out by the ABA
company, because they knew the doctor that
did the assessment on me, the A- travel
ABA company said, "I know this doctor.
She works for this ABA center."
And I said, "Oh, that's the
ABA center that she told me to
go to and do 40 hours a week."
And she said, "Layla, I'm gonna tell you
right now, they're ch- they're making
about a quarter million dollars per kid.
Donatello is $4,000 a
week for them, plusâ¦"
And so that's when I learned that my
son was gonna be a quarter million
dollars a year for this autism center,
and she was gonna make a commission.
So then they said, "I recommend Dr.
Horn because she has no
affiliation with any insurance.
She's her own private practice."
So fast-forward, I meet this doctor,
and I tell the assistant what happened.
Sheâ¦
And then basically in November 16th,
a month later, I sit down with this
doctor, and she meets Donatello,
and she brings me into a room.
She meets with Michelangelo.
I have another son named
Michelangelo, who's younger.
They're 22 months apart.
And she s- wanted to know what happened,
and she sat down me and said, "I'm really
sorry for you to have found out that your
son has autism the way you found out.
That is the worst way for
a parent to ever find out."
I was told by, by many people that doc-
that this doctor has really good bedside
manners and does not over-diagnose,
and sh- she was showing that.
And she says, "I just wanna let
you know, I'm sorry that your son
f- that the way you found out,
but your son does have autism."
And she showed me how,
and she showed me why.
She said, "Whatever I'm gonna
put down, number, level,
whatever it is, don't look at it.
It's what Iâ¦
I'm gonna put down what he needs
to get the support he needs, and
whatever I put down, it's for
now because he's not talking."
And so I was reassured.
And, but then this w-
But interestingly that
Rupert Isaacson: the other people
said, "He's speaking to us."
And w- then the doctor
says he's not talking.
So what were the- Oh ⦠other
people interpreting as speech
Laila Rahmatian: that
he- W- he was singing.
So let, let's say he was
singing, he was babbling, but he
wasn't talking, communicating.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
So she was, you know s- An
important distinction, yeah.
Yeah, a very important distinction.
And, and so she said, "Do you see
how your son wants to pull me to
do something, versus Michelangelo
wants to play and engage?"
So she actually educated me on h-
what is his autism and what isâ¦
She said, "It's a communication.
He has communication and social skills.
But just know that you caught
it early, and he's an excellent
candidate for early intervention.
And I don't say this often, but I
wanna say that with him, I see that if
you do something about this now, the
chances of him having a high-functioning
life is gonna be significant."
So she gave me hope.
Mm.
She made me feel better about
finding out now than later.
She
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't even
trying to sell you anything.
She didn't sell me anything
Laila Rahmatian: What would she sell?
What did she sell?
What would she sell to me?
Rupert Isaacson: Well-
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yeah, like the first
doctor sold me the autism stuff, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
Exactly.
And it's a tricky one because, you
know, say for example somebody comes
to me obviously I have a program.
In the old days I
didn't, I was just a dad.
So am I going to recommend my
program or one of the programs that
does what we've trained them to do?
Yeah, I would.
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But if I, if I recommend
you to go to one of our Horse Boy
places, I get no money for that, right?
It's, that's between you and them.
Yeah.
And I think that this is really
important because- You, when we were
first doing Horse Boy, people suggested
that we should do it as a franchise.
And although we train people, we
charge for that, and although the
people pay not much money to be on
a, a website that is sort of like a
professional association that also m-
you know, gi- gives them continuous ed.
It's, it's really very little money.
And so if you, if I recommend you
to go to one of, quote unquote, "our
people," Rupert Isaacson or Horse Boy
Central or whatever you wanna call
it, makes no money at all from that.
And I, I do think that that
is extremely important.
And so we rejected the franchise issue
e- thing, even though people said, "Well,
you know, you could really make money,"
and, you know, "Think about your child,"
you know, "This could, could be, you
know, his long-term financial future."
Yeah.
But it just didn't feel right.
And as a, as a parent, I was like, "No.
No, you need to know that the people
that you're taking your kid to are
not part of some giant conspiracy to-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: get as much money-
Oh ⦠you know, as possible.
You, you just gotta know this.
So it sounds like, you know,
you definitely picked the
right doctor there with Dr.
Morgan.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Yeah, and she was, she was amazing,
and she s- and she just said, "I'm
very particular about ABA, and I
don't think all of it is great."
But she validated the one that I was going
to, and she, she gave me her blessing
that, "They are someone I would trust, but
do keep me posted on how they're doing."
So then I got out with, like, a whole
different mindset, and I just started,
you know, getting things going with the
speech therapy, with The area I live
in in Indianapolis, it, that mindset
culture is all about referral basis.
It's very strong on the referrals.
The Googles and other
stuff, it doesn't matter.
It's the referral is,
like, the most powerful.
And so I started him on the ABA at
the school, and they, the therapist
within two weeks was amazing.
She was fantastic.
Her sister has autism, so I noticed
that people that had a loved one in
that l- that lifestyle, they, they,
they sympathize more, sympathize better.
And then the speech therapist told me,
"You should do equine-assisted therapy."
And I said, "What?"
Because my brother told me about that
he wanted to become an equine therapist
when Donatella was born, and I didn't
know that that industry existed.
And so I immediately Googled and
looked up, and I went and saw one
five minutes away from me, and
they did a form of therapy called
hippotherapy, and I could barely get in.
So here I'm doing all these therapies,
and then I'm trying to get into
equine therapy, and I barely could
get in for t- once every two weeks
for just 20 minutes of riding and
then 20 minutes of speech therapy.
And it was just honestly difficult,
and it was a fancy-shmancy, wonderful
facility, but again, neon lights in the
arena, and and we weren't able to get in.
We were not allowed in.
And I remember our first session.
I actually have a photo of it.
Rupert Isaacson: You were
not allowed in the arena with
Laila Rahmatian: him?
I was not because of insurance reasons.
Mm.
Because this was insurance covering it.
And then my son was crying, and he wanted
to go in, and I was like At least I get to
see my son doing therapy from this window.
And then and then Iâ¦
And then around that time, it was
February, and we were not sure if
we wanted to go to, to Germany yet,
and I was like f- building the team.
So speech therapy equine therapy, ABA
therapy, and then we were just doing
like chiropractic and craniosacral, and
I was just ⦠I was trying to become
this therapy mom of driving to different
places, and I was getting frustrated.
And then, but I did enjoy the
equine therapy even though
I saw him doing it barely.
But then something happened in f- in,
in February, and I call it a sign.
I was working at a school that I
was trying to see if I wanted to
work there 'cause I was doing math
tutoring for ADHD kids, and then I was
substitute teaching in the math class.
And I don't know if I should
share this, but this is reality.
I get fired because it's a Christian
school, and I said a curse word.
Oops.
And I did, and I didn't realize
that that was a bad thing.
And, you know, I call it
grace and forgiveness.
I said a curse word.
And it was the mostâ¦
It was horrible.
I, I- They made a huge deal out of it.
They made a huge deal out of it.
They fired me.
They ostracized me.
The, the, the p- Very Christian of them.
Yeah.
And it, and honestly, it
made me as a Christian-
Rupert Isaacson: Jesus would've,
would've done the same thing,
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
Oh, actually, no.
And I I started to question my faith.
I was like, "That's it.
I don't wanna be a Christian anymore."
But I, But luckily, four
parents that day that it wasâ¦
One of them was my client.
Theyâ¦
She says like, "It's called
grace and forgiveness.
This is ridiculous."
And fast-forward, half the class found
out that a former NASA engineer got
fired for teaching their kids math,
and they replaced me with a former
sex ed teacher who doesn't know math,
but because she's a Christian, they,
she's gonna te- she's gonna teach math.
And four parents called me because they
all knew me 'cause I was volunteering
for robotics for them, and they,
they were amazing parents, and one of
them was an autism parent becauseâ¦
And I had no idea her, his
daughter was autistic, and
she had the best handwriting.
She was the best student
I had in that class.
Mm.
And she said that we did early
intervention, and we wereâ¦
She was in a Montessori school,
and he told me some great things.
And then one other parent, he was the
motivator to like Go to Germany or
do some- d- don't, don't feel bad.
Turn your back and walk away."
He said, "I've been watching you, and
I see that great things are gonna come
out of you, and I think you're meant
to do more than help these 16 kids."
Mm.
And we've kept in touch,
and it's been great.
So I said to my husbandâ¦
He was soâ¦
He felt so bad 'cause he said, "Maybe this
is God's way of saying you- we should turn
down Germany and you work at this school,
and this could be a good environment."
And then when this happens- ⦠I
was like- Nice ⦠and when
this ha- I was like, "No."
W- And I literally said, "Fuck it.
We're moving to Germany."
Mm-hmm.
And I'd beâ¦
Yeah, and I, and I said,
"Okay, let's do this.
We're gonna do a conditional acceptance
on Germany until we do a site visit.
So we're not gonna accept the job
offer until we know that Donatel's
gonna get the support he needs."
'Cause that was our priority.
Anything we do in our career, our kids
come first- Mm-hmm ⦠before career.
And so here I am forming this team in the
US, and then we come and do a site visit
in March to see if this is even possible.
'Cause here I'm thinking- In Germany.
Oh, yeah, in Germany.
So here I'm thinking that the US and, and
what I'm seeing is the best, the best.
Like, this best equine
center, this best ABA thing.
I'm thinking like,
"Okay, they have to beâ¦
I'm, I'm okay if it's here.
I'm not think- I'm not expecting
it to be higher," because
someone told me autism therapy in
Germany doesn't have a good rep.
And I was like, "Okay."
So then we do the site visit in, in
March, and I had no expectations.
We see this school.
We're really happy about it, and this
school referred us to an ABA place that
they have a different mindset on, on
the, the, the way that things are done.
In fact, they're anti 40 hours.
They're all aboutâ¦
Like, they, they recommended
only 15 hours max for Donatello.
Max, and not needing to use it all.
And then a speech therapist on the
school, and then they were-- I said
to them, and I am so glad I said it.
I said, "I just wanna let you
know that I'm-- we're also doing
equine-assisted therapy, and I'm
just really curious to know if you've
ever heard of this and do this then."
And they're like, "Yeah, I
actually can refer you to somebody.
It's called Horse Boy."
And I'm like, "Okay."
So I'm thinking that Horse Boy, I never,
never heard of it, and I thought, "Oh,
Horse Boy means horse therapy in German."
You know, that's what I
thought Horse Boy was.
And so I didn't, likeâ¦
And then they said, "Yeah, it's an
old mom-and-pop shop, small business.
And we, we booked a time with you
and, and same with everybody else."
And then I'll never forget,
it was March 17th, 1:00.
They told me before leaving the school,
'cause the person that referred me to them
said, "I don't know them, but I heard that
they don't, they don't speak English."
And I also-
Rupert Isaacson: Doesn't say
much for my English, does it?
Laila Rahmatian: I, I heard
they don't speak English, and
it, it is, it is not fancy.
And I said, "I don't care about fancy,"
'cause I s- like I said, I went to a
fancy schmancy place, and I can barely
get in, and I'm not seeing that muchâ¦
I'm not, not getting much writing time.
I said, "I don't care
about fancy schmancy.
I need hope.
I care-- I just need hope."
And
And then I come and we, we s- my husband
speaks broken German at that time.
He's, he's, he speaks German.
It, it just takes a while
for him to pick it up.
And then he's calling this woman named
Eliana, your wife, and he's speaking
to her in German saying that we're
trying to figure out where you are.
And she says, "I can speak English."
And then I said, "Oh, then maybe
the husband doesn't speak English.
Maybe she does, and maybe the guy
we're s- speaking to is German.
Okay, get ready, Andrew.
Get ready to speak German."
And then we-- And then Andrew goes up
to, to you and as I'm getting the kids,
the kids passed out in the car, and
then Andrew comes up to me and I come
up to you and And then you're doing
the, like you start doing this, you're
like, "Rah, rah, rah," with your glasses
on, and you speak in German to me.
And I look at Andrew, and
he says, "He's British.
He's English."
I was like, "What?
You're English."
So I, I was definitely misinformed
about the, the J- English part.
I apologize.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and I was told
that you guys sp- needed to speak
German, so I greeted you in German.
I- And then it's like, oh, you
know, what's going on here?
Laila Rahmatian: Really?
Oh my gosh.
Rupert Isaacson: Americans,
yeah, okay that's,
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, then, so yeah, I remember
speaking to you, and you asked
Andrew, 'cause I had to, I said to
you, "I have to go to the restroom."
Rupert Isaacson: That was the first thing
out of your mouth, "I need to go poo."
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
I didn't say that.
We haven't got a bathroom
Rupert Isaacson: here on site.
Laila Rahmatian: And, oh,
Rupert Isaacson: no, I didn't say-
I do remember, because you said,
because it was important, 'cause
I said, "Okay, if you needâ¦"
'Cause we didn't have a bathroom
on site where we're keeping
the horses at that time.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So I said, "If it's
number one, nature wee, but if it's
number two, I need to make a plan
because there's actually a place
down the road where we do training."
"But I just need to give them a call."
So you had to say, like in your first
meeting with me it's a number two.
And I was like, "Okay."
Laila Rahmatian: I did not say that.
I did- You certainly did ⦠I
did, you said to me, "Between one
and 10, what is the severity?"
I said, "It's five."
He says, "Okay, that's gonna be
probably be a seven or eight."
Yeah.
I said, "I just need
to go to the restroom."
Rupert Isaacson: So I, anyway, I
called my friend Rolf, who had the
place where we did our, you know, our
indoor training, lives down the road.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Someone needs
to come use the loo, and yeah,
Laila Rahmatian: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: we went down
Laila Rahmatian: there.
And we had just started potty training
in January with Donatello, so it's like
three months of potty training that I
was trying to get, taking him as well.
So I was focusing on
him, and I guess myself.
And I remember walking into that area, and
you asked Andrew, "So why are you here?"
Mm.
And I, and then I was walking
up the stairs, and Andrew said,
and we were not confident.
We were, we were keeping
this diagnosis a secret.
Our family didn't, only our parents knew,
but we said, "Don't tell anyone else."
I was just not r- com- prepared
to share that information.
I thought I was gonna keep
it a secret forever honestly.
And and we said, and Andrew said to you
like, "We found out our son has autism."
And, and he said, "Well,
my son has autism."
And I was like, and I'm walking up the
stairs, like, no way this good-looking
man would have, be, have an autism son.
There just, there's no way.
Like, I have never seen an autism
s- a father like that before.
'Cause I'veâ¦
And I say this because I see autism,
autistic parents, and they look
extremely unhealthy And this is veryâ¦
I don't mean to be rude, but, like,
I've seen them extremely unhealthy,
n- not, not involved in the therapy.
They just drop their kids off at therapy.
So to know that somebody who is
working in this field is an autism
parent, that was a shock to me.
And I thought, 'cause, 'cause
here we are and we are telling
you, like, I'm from Texas.
And then you said, "I'm from Texas."
And I said, "Sure you are."
I'm telling myself.
And then, then we say that our
son has autism, and then you say,
"Well, I have a son with autism."
And I'm like, "I'm sure you do."
I'm thinking, "This guy's pitching at me.
Like, I think this- I
think he's full of shit.
Like, I honestly think he's lying to me."
Because- A
Rupert Isaacson: very
quick Google would've
Laila Rahmatian: No, I don't
know anything about you.
Yeah.
And and at the same time, I c-
I kept getting your name wrong.
I d- I asked your name several
times and, and at this time I'm
getting a little overwhelmed
because- Isaac Rupertsson, I think.
Yeah ⦠I kept calling you
I- I said Isaac Rupertsson.
And my husband's like, "Andrew,
it's R-" Oh, Pat and I have that.
It does sound gr- it flows really well.
And Andr- so I getâ¦
So this all is happening after I
get back from the restroom and,
and when I get back, Andrew says,
"Layla, I think this guy's legit.
He's worked with Temple Grandin."
And I know Temple Grandin.
I, I mean, in terms of hearing of her.
And I'm like, "So maybe
he worked under her.
Maybe he was apprenticed by her."
Like, I'm just not knowing anything
about you, but all this is hitting me.
And then we get back to the,
to the field, and Donatello is
running off and I'm chasing him.
And but first we get a horse,
and he's having a tantrum.
He's having a tantrum, and
I'm really embarrassed.
I'm extremely embarrassed in front of you.
And you get the horse, and you put him on
the horse, and you said that, "My son said
his first words on this, on the horse."
And I was likeâ¦
And then you mentioned
oxytocin and neuroplasticity.
And I take, I ta- I asked if I
could take a photo, and I take
this photo, and you have the most
beautiful smile looking at my son.
And and then I have it still recorded
that you said, like, "We will help you.
My team will help you."
And I used it also as a way to kind
of confirm if I really heard that
correctly, 'cause again, I'm thinking,
"You're saying you're from Texas.
I'm from Texas.
You're saying you have a son with autism.
I have a kid with autism.
I just can't really trust you because
everything sounds so good to be true."
Okay?
And then because here I am, I'm
dealing, I've dealt with people
that have sold to me, and I find out
they're, they're lying and they'reâ¦
And identity fraud is real.
Anyways, and so then Donatello's
running off after the horse,
and you tell me, "Let him go."
And I was like, "Okay, fine.
I'll let him go."
That's the first time that a parent,
someone's telling me not to chase my kid.
Fine.
Yeah.
And I'm following you, and
Rupert Isaacson: I- And just for the
record, for those listening, we had
a particularly safe environment there
where- Yes, you did ⦠any could,
could take off in any direction and
l- literally run for two kilometers
before they would hit any kind of
road, and a straight sight line of-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: open field.
So you could absolutely see them.
And that way you could also
observe, well, how far will they go-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: what do they
wanna do, where will they stop,
and what will they get involved in?
And we can get, catch up to them, 'cause
I'm on horseback, like in seconds.
So- Mm-hmm ⦠we had that luxury there.
'Cause I know that some people who
are listening to this say, "Well,
you know, my center's right by a
road," or whatever, and there's
no way- Yes, that's a good point
you don't have that luxury.
So, the only reason- Mm-hmm ⦠I
said it there was in that particular
environment, this could happen.
Okay?
Just-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and
developed in conjunction with Dr.
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.
We work in the saddle
with younger children.
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be
applied in schools, in homes.
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Laila Rahmatian: No, thank
you for clarifying that.
That is very accurate and true, that it
was an environment that I did not know
how far was safe, but the fact that you
said it, I was like, "You know what?
Fine."
I'm thinking, "Show me what you got."
You know?
I'm- Mm.
I apologize, but I was, I was-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: I- it- Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: skepticism is very-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And I don't trust people right away,
especially when it comes to my son.
No.
And especially with this diagnosis,
I really started to become
d- doubtful because of the-
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Laila Rahmatian: it is
an industry, you know?
Yeah ⦠it is an industry,
and I was like, "Okay, whereâ¦
W- Like, l- I'm getting
ready for the sales pitch.
I'm getting ready for theâ¦"
Yeah.
And so as we were going, you were
riding, and Donatello was riding,
and I think just seeing how you were
riding and seeing how you knew exactly
what you were doing- I was just eyeing
you up and down and looking at what
you were saying Yeah, I was, I was
Rupert Isaacson: shadowing and tailing
your son from the back of the horse, yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: And you were,
and I was watching and eyeing you
and what you were doing with my
son, and I was taking a step back.
Yet you still told me, like,
you know, I was holding the dog.
The dog's name is Alex?
It's one of our
Rupert Isaacson: three
dogs, probably Axel maybe.
Laila Rahmatian: Axel.
It was Axel.
'Cause Axel
Rupert Isaacson: gets it a lot.
Was it the big one or the little one?
Laila Rahmatian: Axel.
It was Axel.
It's a lot of names.
Yeah.
And so it was Axel, and I was holding his
leash and I told myself, "Just listen.
Just listen and see what he's doing.
This is really peaceful."
And it was nice that I was involved,
and you were talking to me as you
were following him, and you were
explaining some things to me.
And then on top of it, you had
asked me, "Have you heard of The
Horse Boy movie and the book?"
And I said No, I haven't.
I haven't.
And I was like, "Oh, Horse Boy's not
horse ther- it doesn't mean horse therapy.
It's actually a method."
And then you shared with me that,
and you said it in the most humblest
way, that it's a method I created.
And and I, and I wasâ¦
That's when I started to listen
more, because you weren't saying,
"Oh, you should have heard of me.
You haven't heard of my work?"
You know?
Yeah, you were like- I sh- yeah.
Yeah, well, I mean, I have had
people tell me, "I can't believe you
haven't heard of my work," you know?
And I'm like, "Well, I'm
glad that I-" There's
Rupert Isaacson: about nine billion people
in the world, so I'm sure most of them
haven't heard of me, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
But I, at the same time, I was
shocked that it was going so well.
I was happy to s- that it was going so
well, and then I was also ready to hear
you tell me, "So you need to buy a horse."
Yeah.
I was ready for you to tell me to
buy a horse or to learn, like, "To
do this, you need to have a horse.
To do this, you need
to learn how to ride."
But then you mentioned this method
called Movement Method, and you told
me, like, "This is what you need to do.
Email me and remind me to send you the
link to this and this," and I wrote it all
down on my notepad, on my i- iNotes, and
I was just blown away that there was noâ¦
The session went really, really well.
I was prepared for a sales pitch.
I was prepared for being spoken
down to, and none of that happened.
It was the most genuine, kindest,
down-to-earth meeting I had, and
I felt like there was, like, a
camera spinning around me, like
I'm hitting this epiphany moment.
Yeah.
And then this car comes down.
A car drives by, this white car, and
out comes this beautiful lady named
Ileana, and this beautiful girl.
And then you said, "Oh, here's the boss.
This is the boss."
And it was F- it was Freya, and
the, that was a, that was the shock.
She's amazing.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, your daughter, Freya.
And you were like, "Here's the real boss."
And and that was when
it hit me really hard.
And I instantly trusted you
when your daughter came out
of the car and shook my hand.
And so shout out to Freya.
But that was when I realized, okay,
this man is not trying to help my son.
This family is trying to help my family,
and this is a genuine, kind family.
This is not a, a business agenda,
money-driven industry type job
compared to what I'm, I'm now seeing.
So I'm goingâ¦
This is five months into my journey of
autism with my son, so October, November,
December, January, February, March.
So March is when I'm not evenâ¦
yeah, five months since Donatelle's
diagnosed that I f- I discovered you.
And then and then you were getting your
rope and putting it together, and Elliana
was standing there, and you looked at
her, and you said, "He's just like Rowan."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, he was, he
is just like Rowan was at his age.
He is.
Laila Rahmatian: I- But my
response was, "Who is Rowan?"
And I, and I cry about it
because now I know who Rowan is.
And so, so I get, so we get into the
car, and my, and I look at my husband.
We both were, like, in awe, and
I'm like, "What just happened?"
Because you rec- and you
told me, and you were likeâ¦
I feel like you were mad,
but you were serious.
You were very serious, and
you were like, "He needs to be
outside two to four hours a day.
This is his environment."
And I'm like, "Well, how come no
one fucking told me that before?"
I didn't know that.
Mm.
And so I immediately apply that.
And so we get back to the car.
We call our agent, and w- we I s- weâ¦
Immediately Andrew and I
said, "This is our sign.
We're moving to Germany.
We're moving to Germany.
I don't know who this guy is, but
he knows exactly what he's doing.
He can help my son."
And I immediately go back home.
We accept the job offer that then
you said to us, "I have good news
and bad news, and I tell you flat
out, tell me bad news right now."
And you're like, "Well, we're moving."
And "But it's okay.
I'll have my team help you."
And I said, "Well, when are you moving?"
"In August."
And I said, "Well, we're
planning on moving in August."
So then Andrew says, "I will see if I
can start the job six weeks earlier."
So we move in s- so fast
forward, we accept the job offer.
We move to Germany in July, and from
the March till July, I read your book.
I watch your movie.
I have a consultation call with you 'cause
you told me to do that, and I did it.
And and then I did the Moven Method one
and two course online, and then we signed
up for Moven Method three when I arrived.
And then with Ileana, I, we scheduled,
like, 13 sessions until you left.
I just wanted to book you right away doing
three sessions at Equine c- because again,
I was getting 20 minutes in every two
weeks, and I'm like, three hours a week?
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
It's not about the hours
of being on the horse.
It's just the hours of getting, working
on his brain, working on his body-mind
awareness, his neuroplasticity.
And with the course, learning about
Moven Method, I understood what you were
talking about in that two-hour session.
And on top of that, Rupert, I got
to understand how you got from where
you were to where you are today.
So it was, it was like I went
backwards to understand what you
were talking about, and that wasâ¦
I was very fortunate to have
that opportunity to s- Mm.
And then when I was reading your
book- I saw exactly what you meant
by he's just like Rowan, 'cause I
felt like I was reading about my son.
And the movie was very
difficult for me to watch.
Lots of crying and, and at the
same time I'm seeing my kid doing
the same thing at that moment.
So it was very, it was very
great of you to write that book.
I, I applaud you for writing that book,
and then I read The Long Ride Home,
and that was an amazing book as well.
And so then I did Method
Method 3 and we just, we, we
landed in Germany on July 10th.
Our first session, I have my notes, was on
July 15th.
And so no one knew this until I told
you like months later that people were
telling me that they, that they, that's g-
about equine therapy not being effective.
They were skeptical.
And so by reading about your work and
then seeing three different methods,
PATH, hippotherapy, PATH, 'cause I
went to another stable that got me in
one month before I got in to get 30
minutes, and I told this PATH center.
They were really nice.
They, they did the certification, but I
told them, "Have you heard of Horse Boy?"
And she said no, but the speech
therapist said, "I have heard of him
fif- I heard about him 15 years ago."
And I said, "I'm working with him."
They're like, "That is awesome."
And so having some staff know, kn-
knew that I am getting my son ready to
work with you, that, that that stable
was supporting the preparation to work
with you by getting ready for the move.
So I do, I did keep in touch with them.
I even gave them your book so she could
read about it and, and about your work
because there were some things with hippo
and PATH I, at these places I didn't
like and that was They were putting
him on the horse and then with one s-
one method they were like, "If he wants
to get off, we just, we honor it."
But one other method did,
they said, "Let's just keep
him on until he's regulated."
And there was one time where
Donatel was having a tantrum.
The lady says, "Let me
get him on the horse."
And for 20 minutes he was just losing
it, and finally he kinda just gave in and
regulated, but he passed out afterwards.
And I was like, "I don't like this."
Mm.
And so then when we moved to see
you, I, having heard about all these
two meth- these two other methods
and then learning about your method,
but not knowing it until I s- did it
with you, I decided to record data
because there was so much skepticism
coming from other people's mouths.
No one was advocating for this.
No one was telling me about
equine-assisted therapy.
Everyone was telling me about
all the therapies that I got on
right away, the ABA, the speech.
And, but it was the speech therapist
who had worked at that equine center
told me, "You should do this."
It was kinda like a crack
in the middle of all this.
It was someone cracked through
and told me this secret.
Mm.
And if it wasn't for her, I would
never have requested to go and
find an equine therapy, assisted
therapy service in Germany.
But that was the special glue
that made us decide to accept the
job offer because we felt like
you were gonna, you and the team.
And it's true, we're getting more
support here than we did in the
States, and that's in, in Indiana.
But I wasâ¦
But with all the negativity and the
back and forth feedback of yes, no,
whatever, I said, "Well, I'm an engineer.
I collect data."
And I collected data.
Yeah.
And Iâ¦
All right.
So where do you want me to start?
I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think it would
be really useful for people because
you, you, you collected data right
from the get-go, and you collected
data in the sessions that I was doing.
And then, as you know, after I
moved my colleague Kira took over.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And so then you
were also recording data with her.
Yeah.
And then you followed our
recommendation to also go up to
our friends Henrik and Gitty up in
central Germany, and y- you recorded
what, you know, went on with them.
You went down to our friend
Carla, who's down in Heidelberg,
who also does an amazing job.
So, and as you know- Yeah ⦠with
Horse Boy, that's what we do.
We recommend- Yeah ⦠that you
go to a variety of, of places.
So I'd be really interested-
Yes ⦠to know, yeah, what was
the data in the sessions with me?
What was the data in
the sessions with Kira?
What was the s- you know.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Just, just give the
Laila Rahmatian: chronology.
Totally.
Yeah.
I mean, I worked, and then, so, you
know, from, we started our first
session July 15th, and our last
session was on July 4th so far.
July 7th.
So it was like a g- equivalent of 11
to 10 months of sessions, which is
like 70 to 71 sessions of Horse Boy.
And the first session that I had with
you, he was barely on the horse for like
one to three minutes, and that was when
I knew how different you were, where you
were like, "The child comes up to me."
I'm like, "How does a child
come up to the horse?"
And I noticed I have it noted on the
third session that he leaned against
your arm, and that was special for
you, I know you said, 'cause you
said that's exactly what Rowan did.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: And-
Rupert Isaacson: Up there in the
saddle leaning his full weight
into- Yeah ⦠your elbow.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I decided to record riding time
because for me, that was important
to record- Mm-hmm ⦠mounted time,
unmounted time, after session time- Mm-hmm
⦠behavior at the school- Mm-hmm ⦠24-hour
and post 48-hour, like end milestones.
Like if anything happened, I recorded it.
Like, what is happening to him during
and after the session because, you know,
you're building your neuroplasticity,
you're, you're building BDNF And all
the things that I was learning from
you and from your team, that it's
like there's, it's like working out.
Like, your muscle fibers
are still forming.
You're growing and you've, you've torn
them, now they're, they're building.
And that's how I saw it with him.
But what I did, what I focused on, on
was just my personal goal of how he
can sit still and, and concentrate.
Mm-hmm.
So he went, we went, we went from one
to three minutes, and then by the th- by
the third session, he went to 10 minutes.
But the first 10 sessions, I noted
that Donatello's seeing a difference,
and I'm seeing a difference between
the two other methods, Hippo and
PATH, and I'm noticing that Donatello
now wants to go up to the horse.
He wants to go and now, But then by the
13th sessio- session, the therapists
that I was w- that I had been working
with, that I brought on board, they
were impressed by how he didn't have
a tantrum anymore, and no issues
with, with transitions as it was.
He started to make eye contact,
which again, was one of the
two original signs of autism.
Point eye contact and name.
Pointing and name, but also eye contact.
By the 16th session, which is
when we worked with Kira, 'cause
we did 13 sessions with you.
Mm-hmm.
And we did a session which, it was
in an envir- I, I wanna say this.
It was in an environment that was safe.
No one was there, so we did waist down.
Like, n- like, he was stripped waist down.
He had to get- To pee ⦠back in touch
Rupert Isaacson: with his
body for toilet training.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Because there were- We're talking
Rupert Isaacson: about
working in a forest, guys.
He had so little contact-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes, we're
in a, he's working in a forest
with other humans, just,
yeah We were in a likeâ¦
Yeah, there was no other person.
And I was, like, uncomfortable
'cause I'm not used to that, but
at the same time, I di- I was in an
environment to be able to do that.
Yeah.
And so on the 16th session,
he saw himself pee.
And you were telling me before
that, like, that's good, that he's
making that body-mind connection.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, because they wear-
Laila Rahmatian: And I would-
⦠Rupert Isaacson: the diapers
so long, they lose touch with
what's going on down there.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Yeah.
And and he was also on that
session requesting to go up,
and to request to go down.
And and then the session after that,
he didn't want that, but then the
next session, he, it, he wanted
more of, to to go up and down.
So there were sessions where he wasâ¦
It was, it's kinda like, you know, going
up and excelling in your, in the data.
It's never upward u- hill.
It's goes up and down.
But I have noted that on the 19th session-
He said on and off without being prompted.
And heâ¦
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
No, you go ahead.
And then he said yes and no at
school when he was asked a question,
and he slept the entire night.
We were having problems with him sleeping-
Rupert Isaacson: And this is
Laila Rahmatian: session
Rupert Isaacson: number?
⦠Laila Rahmatian: a little bit.
19.
Rupert Isaacson: 19.
Yeah.
Also, I do remember that in one of the
sessions with me, that was when heâ¦
Do you remember?
He, he wanted toâ¦
So the environment we had we
were surrounded by plum orchards-
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: which
were all fruiting when- Yes
he came.
And one of the, the reasons why
I said let him go, 'cause I knew
he'd seen the plums on the trees,
'cause they were very bright, and
he wanted to go check them out.
And I said, "Let him go eat.
Let him go forage."
That was- Yeah ⦠so when you and
I were following him on that first
session, we only, we only needed to go
between, like 75 yards, and then- Yeah
he, he had discovered, "Oh my
gosh, I can eat these plums."
And then quite quickly after that,
When he was up with me and I was
showing him, "Well, this is an
apple tree, this is a plum tree."
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember?
And he said- Oh,
Laila Rahmatian: yeah
⦠" Rupert Isaacson: plum tree."
Can you tell me which session that was?
Because that wasn't him- Oh, gosh
that wasn't him echolalia-ing it.
It was him saying which one he wanted.
So, 'cause I was saying-
Laila Rahmatian: yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: go, 'cause he was eating
the apples, and he was eating the plums.
And I said, and he, I had him
in the saddle, and I saidâ¦
'Cause we could pick them from the saddle.
And I said-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah ⦠"Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you wanna go to
the apple tree or the plum tree?"
He said, "To the plum tree."
Which session was that?
Laila Rahmatian: The first
session, he said, "Pear tree."
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
Laila Rahmatian: And, and he I don't rec-
I, he said, "Pear tree," and that's when
I knew, like, there's something here.
Yeah.
I apologize.
I did not s- I did not have it here.
I have it on my other notes that
he said, "Pear tree," and that
reminded me of Rowan saying, "Heron."
Yeah.
And so that was our version of-
Yeah ⦠experiencing the, a, a word
like heron, but it was pear tree.
And you, you shared with me
your observation of that.
And I have a video of him.
I have, I have videos captured, and
I, I captured him s- you doing a
session with him on that first session.
But also, what was amazing
that he said a word without I
had never taught him before.
Yeah.
That was, that was, that was new for me.
'Cause I taught him everything,
but he said something that I
didn't, I never taught him.
I didn't even know that he
knew that was a pear tree
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: There's no better way
to know than by eating the pears and the
plums and the apples that grow on them.
And that was-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: you know, it, it,
that's so much the advantage of, of
that kind of environment because you
get those motivations in the kid.
And remember my first communication
with Rowan was all about foraging.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Before we ever went
to the horse, because it's so built
into the human DNA- Yeah ⦠to forage.
It's- Yeah
what we are.
We're hunters and gatherers.
When you go to the
supermarket, you're foraging.
So we're moti- We, we, we learn
the vocabulary first of what
our biology motivates us to do.
Mm-hmm.
So usually that's comfort
with m- with mom first.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And then it very
quickly goes to other food sources.
Mm-hmm.
And there's relatively few children these
days, neurotypical or otherwise, who
actually get to grow up in the environment
that a human is supposed to grow up
in, where they are supposed to forage.
And then- Yeah ⦠by foraging you
learn to order your environment,
and then you learn to cope in your
environment, you learn to problem solve
and, and, and, and, and there it goes.
And so it's always really interesting
to me when we have kids and you
can let them do that, to see how-
Yeah ⦠quickly they begin to develop.
Even when they seem to be r- relatively
severe, like more severe than Donatello.
Yeah ⦠because it, because on a
DNA level it makes perfect sense.
Yeah.
And if they're not motivated by
that, you know that you've got
some deeper work to do to sort of-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: restart, in a funny way,
that nervous system and those neurons.
But that, back to your thing of the, the,
the center in Texas with the whiteâ¦
or Indi- Indianapolis, where with
the white walls and the fluorescent
strip lights and it looking like a, an
asylum or a jail And saying, "Well, I
know this is the wrong environment."
On a DNA level, we know
exactly what the right- Mm-hmm
environment for a kid is, and it's a farm.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's always a farm.
Yeah ⦠or the, or the wilderness.
And with no exceptions,
like zero exceptions.
Mm.
And i- so if you do that, you are
going to get the changes in the brain.
You're going to get the gut flora, because
the kids will eat the stuff off the tree.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: They'll eat th- they'll
eat the apples that have fallen on
the ground with all- Mm-hmm ⦠of
the gut flo- with all of the ba-
bacteria on them that they need to
establish- Yes ⦠their immune system
and their neurons in their brain.
Yeah.
If you don't do this and you
don't know that you'reâ¦
one should do this- Yeah
given the plethora of information that's
out there these days- Yeah ⦠it's not
like this is unavailable information,
Yeah ⦠particularly if you're working
with human beings and health- Yeah ⦠and
mental health as well as physical health,
then we know it always comes back to
effectively gut flora, which al- always
comes back to nature, because- Yeah
that's where you find it, you know?
So it, it's astonishing to me that-
It's not just common practice in every
therapy- Yeah ⦠no matter what, to
say, "Let's do it in that environment."
Doesn't matter if it's equine,
doesn't matter if it's ABA, doesn't
matter if it's this, doesn't matter.
Let's do it in that environment.
And if we do it in that environment,
we're gonna see change because
we're gonna change the internal
structures of the body in the way,
when the brain is the body, you know.
So I did a podcast the other day and
they made a, a really good point saying
people talk about body, body-mind
connection or body-brain connection,
but they don't talk about body-foot
connection or body-nose connection.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
As
Rupert Isaacson: if the brain
was not part of the body when-
Laila Rahmatian: That's a true point.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, that-
If you separate the brain from the
body metaphorically, it's one thing.
If you do it physically, well,
that's a short experiment.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know?
Laila Rahmatian: That is true.
I mean, and, and, and the thing is, is
that, you know, you were teaching me so
much about what is the right environment.
And I was very disappointed that I
had, like I'm very dis- I was very
disappointed that that was not something
that was just shared with me, like the
nature piece, the, the, the things that-
Rupert Isaacson: You mean
by the other therapist?
Laila Rahmatian: By the other therapists.
You know, I had to t- I-
Rupert Isaacson: But they don't know.
And, and what- They
Laila Rahmatian: don't know
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and what's crazy about
this, there's two things they don't know.
They don't know that, and they
don't know any neuroscience.
No.
And y- you say, "Well, they're
not neuroscientists, Rupert.
They're equine therapists."
It's like, a- ah, come on.
Be curious.
If you're working with humans,
you're working with the
brain and the nervous system.
Yes.
Especially if you're working with autism.
That's what you're doing,
brain and nervous system.
Yeah.
So if you don't go and talk
to neuroscientists, how
are you a professional?
Yeah.
And they are there to talk to.
You can Google them at the
university faculty website,
and you can send them an email.
That's all we ever did.
Yeah.
Send them an email and say,
"I have some questions.
Can you explain this?
Can you explain that?"
And they do.
They get back to you.
Laila Rahmatian: I, I, I mean,
I, that's why I was capturing
data because there was noâ¦
I felt like-
Nobody was doing what I was doing.
And when I was telling people what I was
doing and they have a child with autism,
they're like, "Oh, that's really cool.
I have never heard of that."
Or, "I, I did hear about it, but,
you know, did they take insurance?"
Or, you know, "I, I, I tried
to get in, I couldn't get in."
And that's another thing too, is like some
of these therapeutic riding centers, they
just don't, they don't have enough to keep
they don't have capacity or, and then, or
they just don't graduate these kids out
to make more room for those other kids.
And I, and I started to notice that
comparing it with what we were doing
together where we were having this
extended amount of time that, you
know, this one-hour session or whatever
the child needs type length of time
versus, oh, it's only 20 minutes.
It's only 30 minutes.
Rupert Isaacson: No, as you
know now, I would, I always
book a minimum of two hours-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: with
a child like Donatello.
Yeah.
Because just the transitional
thing can take 30 minutes.
So- Exactly ⦠you can't rush it.
No ⦠but what I also said to you,
if you remember, is your session
is longer than your session.
You can hang out in this
environment as long as you want.
Go take him in the orchard.
Go- Exactly ⦠play with the dogs.
Go explore whatever he wants to explore.
Go down to the stream with him.
Doâ¦
That's the whole
environment we're working.
You don't need me and my horse
to be with you the whole time.
Laila Rahmatian: And
that was a shock for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: That was a
shock for me 'cause it's more of
like, "Okay, you have to go now,"
versus, "Okay, I'll, I'll do this.
Okay, I'm, I'm gonna go."
"Oh, okay.
All right, thanks."
You know, it was very, it was, it
was surreal to know that I had that
permission- Mm ⦠to stay and, and
then I saw that there was no again,
another hidden agenda of, like,
a discussion down the road with
fees and extension of time orâ¦
You know, I'm just so used to
hearing those- Sure ⦠nickel
and diming type discussions ofâ¦
And I just was prepared for those types
of discussions, which I even noticed
that, and I said this to Eliana, "I really
appreciate the transparency that this
is the fee and this is only the fee."
And, and that was alsoâ¦
I find that your work and your pro-
You guys were just so professional.
Another thing too that I've dealt with
is that a lot of these practitioners,
they come in and they bring their
dirty laundry into our, our space,
and that was something that I dealt
with a lot in, in my experience.
I'm not saying that this
Rupert Isaacson: is true.
Were they coming to complain and gossip
about what's going on in their life?
Laila Rahmatian: Yes, and I was like-
Yeah ⦠"Oh, I guess I'm gonna be
your therapist now too," because
that's my nature, is like I'm a
nurturer and I like to help people.
And when someone's sharing with
me they're having a problem,
I can't say, "Well, I'm sorry.
That sucks."
I'm like, "Okay."
You're really empathetic.
Sure.
I, I'm very empathetic and, but then
it got, it gets to the point where,
it, it got to the point where I said to
myself, "You know, if I wasn't moving
to Germany, I would fire them right
now, but we only got a month left, so
let's just suck it up and deal with it.
And then when we go to Germany, I'm gonna
just m- hopefully not deal with this."
And I, I did not.
And I mean, I, and I, and I don't
know if you wanna know any more, but
the other milestones we had- Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: let's
go back to the data.
Laila Rahmatian: Let's- Sure.
Th- that's, and no, this is very great.
This is wonderful, by the way.
Okay.
I've enjoyed- Let's go through
Rupert Isaacson: now chronologically-
Laila Rahmatian: Sure
⦠Rupert Isaacson: what's going on.
Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: So looking here I have
it here noted that the, so on the session
19, we had huge milestone of saying yes
and no, but on September 24th, which
was the a- another special session
after he kissed me for the first time.
And he, he noticed himself
going to the potty, but he
would always miss getting there.
So that was another thing.
Number two, 'cause we, we were really
struggling with the potty training,
and there were times whereâ¦
That was session 24 and 25, but
then by session 28 he s- he s-
he chased me for the first time.
He was also a person that he
was used to people chasing him
but not ev- like reciprocity.
He wasn't chasing me back.
And then he was starting to play with
Michelangelo on the 28th session, and
Michelangelo was so in awe because
he's always chasing his brother.
He loves his brother.
And then on the 36th session Kira
spelled out the le- the A-P-P-L-E,
and Donatella said, "Apple."
After she spelled it, didn't show him
what it was, he said, "That is apple."
And we rode for 47 minutes, so I noticed
that the riding time was increasing.
I'm not saying that's important,
but it was important for me to
see how he would like to sit still
and be attentive on something.
Because that was something that
Kira told me, like, "Please
don't focus on riding time.
That is not how weâ¦
That's not the purpose of Horse
Boy is the how long y'allâ¦"
I said, "I understand, but
I'm doing that as part of my-
Rupert Isaacson: Sure, and it's just
very telling that in the early stages
when often they wanna get up for a few-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: sometimes a few
minutes, to later- Mm-hmm ⦠sessions
when they want and are seeking out-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: that
extended time on the horse.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What's going
on with that biologically?
Why are they doing that?
Is that a, you know, is that because
the oxytocin is really kicking
in and they're really, you know.
So it is worth noting.
Yeah, it is worth noting.
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, oh,
thank, I, I appreciate that.
But but I would say that after the
36th session, I would say that we had,
I have it noted, like, you know, we,
we had some great, you know, sessions.
Like, he was consistent, but I
didn't see any type of milestones
for a while, and I felt- Yeah.
And so, like, from the session 36 to
session, I'll get to that one, but,
like, you know, it was session 36.
That was when, when was session 36?
Session 36 was in November.
So from November, it was getting
cold, and our riding time reduced
a lot, but we still went to
Handrick and Gitis for New Year's.
We did, like, an hour ride on a pony, and,
you know, we didn't see any milestones.
All I, all we knew is, like,
now we're, we're exhausted
with sleep d- sleep deprivation
because Donatella's not sleeping.
'Cause the moment we moved to
Germany, both boys were now in the
same room sharing a room, and we were
starting to get deprived of sleep.
I hired a autism sleep coach.
She was amazing.
And I have that in my notes as
where that fall fell in because I'm,
I'm also capturing data from this
session, these sessions, but also
I'm trying to compare it with all
the other sessions that capture data
and when we've put things together.
Because it is important, I feel, to,
to show how this work was helping the
other work work and helping him sleep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I, I would say that
session 36, we did all, all that.
And then I said, "Okay,
November is hitting."
Then February comes and
I'm starting to lose hope.
I would, I would say, like, I wasn't
losing hope in the Horse Boy, but
I was starting to wonder, is my
son ever gonna get potty trained?
Is my son everâ¦
'Cause that, 'cause the reason why
I was getting exhausted, because
in January of 2026, we started
potty training Michelangelo.
So now I'm potty training two kids.
Now you're up to your elbows in it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm, and I'm dealing with him
soiling him- So Donatello was, was
doing great, and then suddenly we
reduced the amount of Horse Boy
sessions because of the schedule and the
weather, and Donatello is now goingâ¦
He's soiling himself
five to six times a day.
Mm.
And I was getting really embarrassed.
I was getting worried about our aide.
And they were fine.
And then we go on a trip in April
for two weeks, for one week, and the
last week before the school starts,
we work with Kira for a full week.
And so f- we we- we went to
Portugal because you told us to go
to Portugal in the Algarve area.
Algarve?
Did I say that right?
Algarve.
Algarve.
Algar- Algarve.
And we loved it.
We loved it.
And this is when I learned quickly about
environment how impactful that is for him.
We were at a place and, and I, and I,
and I like to bring this up because I
was thinking that this was the right
environment for my kid an all-inclusive
place, and it was, it wasâ¦
it had, it had a lot of space, and thisâ¦
It was a villa.
And all it did was that it freaked out
Donatello because it was all concrete.
And he saw a pool, and he wanted to go to
the pool, and he was just losing his mind.
New environment, everything.
He, he starts hitting himself.
And it's not like he's hitting, he's
just slapping his hands on his knees.
And it was just extremely painful to see.
It was so scary.
'Cause the first time he had a tantrum
ever was the day we moved to Germany, and
that's, that was the first major tantrum.
And then the next week, he had another
tantrum where you were actually with
me 'cause he got out of his car seat.
And so I-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, he was just, he
was just jet lagged and sleep deprived.
Yeah, yeah, at that mo- at that point.
Yeah.
But
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
Yeah, but you, you helped calm me
down 'cause I was freaking out.
Mm.
And and then he's having this in Portugal
and I'm like, "Will we ever travel?
Will we ever get to- Have a life.
And and then we had some issues with
the hotel, and we decided to switch
hotels, and we went to this hotel
that we originally, o- originally
were gonna go to, but we decided
not to because we thought this place
had more kiddie pools and whatnot.
But this hotel was right off the beach.
Mm.
And it had a v-- and it was a hotel room.
It was in multiple rooms.
And I real- we really quick- we quickly
realized we need to be in a place where
there's lots of light and direct access
to nature from a view that Donatello
can see, and that immediately gave him
comfort that he was seeing us in the
same room, like two beds, four people,
and a view of the pool and the ocean.
And I have photos of him just being
so happy looking out to the pool.
And then we were at the pool and
the beach for five days straight.
And I'm br- I'm getting to, I'm
getting somewhere here because
I have it noted in my notes.
And then we get back, and so Donatello
had spent five days being in the pool,
where in two days he figured out how
to get across an Olympic-sized pool
by himself, that even other parents
were freaking out thinking this kid is
gonna drown because he was by himself,
which he wasn't, he was in floaties.
And then basically, then we get back
and me and Kira, we did four sessions of
Horse Boy and just kept, kept him moving.
So we did like basically move
method, and then we did Horse Boy
method, and then school starts.
And I was not having a good day that day.
I was just not having a good day.
It was a combination of, will
this kid ever, like, get there?
And on April 16th, I went to s- pick
up Donatello, and the assistant came
up to me, and she was very calm and g-
and, and she said, "I just wanna let you
know, I don't want you to freak out."
And I was like, "Oh, shit, what happened?
What the fuck happened now?"
"I just wanna let you know,
Donatello pooped in the potty,
not once, but three times today."
And I don't want you to say anything.
I don't want you to freak out.
I don't want you to scream.
I just wanna let you know-
Oh, man ⦠that he did it.
He did it.
Rupert Isaacson: Hallelujah.
Laila Rahmatian: He did it.
And I
Rupert Isaacson: He pooped in the potty.
Laila Rahmatian: Potty.
In
Rupert Isaacson: the
Laila Rahmatian: potty.
Rupert Isaacson: In the potty.
Halepoolia, halepoolia, halepoolia.
Laila Rahmatian: Hallelujah.
So he pooped in the potty
four times in a row that day.
I cried so hard, like it was
the first time that he got
diagnosed, but in a happy way.
We, we ordered food.
I mean, my husband and I celebrated
secretly and cried, but it was
e- it was exactly eight months
to the day of when we started.
So it was April 15th.
We started on July 15th.
That was exactly eight months of
working with you and doing g- all this.
And then after that, more things
connected, and his teacher said
to me that when the child poops
in the potty, other milestones
can start to, to pick up quickly.
Yeah.
And she was right ⦠it
accelerates at that point, yeah.
Significantly.
And then on session 63 he s- he pointed
and said, "That way," on the horse.
And then and then we had a very
special session with Carla Brahms,
and it was on May 15th, the last
day before Kira went to Spain.
And he was singing with us on the
horse and moving his hands, and
Carla was getting teary-eyed, like,
"This is such a beautiful moment."
And I, I just wanna also mention
that we did work with another person.
Her name was Ava, and that was the first
time that we did a session where Donatella
and Michelangelo got to do a Horse Boy
Session, which I was impressed by, knowing
that you guys support siblings to join you
guys because Michelangelo wasn't left out.
Yeah.
Was not left out.
Rupert Isaacson: Boy.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah.
But no.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Laila Rahmatian: And then the last session
we've done so far, and it was a huge
step in the potty training, where he,
for the first time, he felt something.
He pulled his pants down, and
he peed and pulled his pants up.
So I call it standing and peeing.
And that was like, oh, my gosh.
That's so nice and so easy.
So we still have a long ways to go,
but 70 sessions within 10 to 11 months
I'm proud of that
Rupert Isaacson: Very.
And you know what, what I think is
also worth pointing out is a lot of
people know that when I have families
come, I always say, "I want you
to do a movement method training."
Yeah.
Because if you don't, then any
progress that we make here with
the horses isn't supported at home.
Yeah.
And frankly, anything that we do is all
right, but it's not gonna be as much as if
you have a 24/7 culture of this kind of-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: neuroplasticity
going on in the family at home.
And what happens when it's too
icy, or this, or that, or you need
to go on holiday, or, or, or you
need to know how to deliver this.
And you really took that to heart.
So when I said, "Make sure you get an
apartment that opens onto a park-" Yeah.
"⦠'cause you're gonna be in the city."
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
But
Rupert Isaacson: these German
cities have forests that come into-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: get one where the
kid can go straight out into the
forest, or straight out into- Yeah.
I'm so used to saying that to
people, and they just don't listen.
You totally listened.
And then I'm so used to people coming
up with 1,000 reasons why they can't
do the movement method training.
And frequently, after a certain number
of weeks, I'll let them go, 'cause
I'll say, "You're, you're welcome to
come back, but for now I just needâ¦
I have a certain number of hours
I can work, and I want to work
with people that are gonna really
do-" Yeah ⦠kind of what I did.
You totally went for that.
You went, you went, you did movement
method one, two, and three, like, very
fast, and then you started applying
it all at home, which meant that you
could then manage your other therapists
really well, because you knew.
So let's say you have an ABA therapist.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: You, you know how
to say to that person, "Are you
prepared to work in the forest?
Are you-" Yeah "⦠prepared
to work in aâ¦
Here is the neuroscience
of why that's important.
Mm-hmm.
Are you prepared to actually run
after this kid through the trees?"
Yeah.
"Here is the neuroscience
of why this is important."
You did all that, and then the
trajectory that you just described was
exactly how it goes when it's optimal.
So you get early, big changes because the
neurons just start firing, firing, firing.
Like, you know, there's Donatello-
Yeah ⦠in the orchards around
us, and so there's reason to
communicate, there's reason to speech.
He's got all this-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: he's
doing his gut bacteria.
He's doing everything.
And then this goes on to where,
and then there's a plateau where
you think- Yeah ⦠"Is this it?"
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and it's
almost like they're getting ready.
They're getting ready.
Yes.
They're getting ready for the next
one, and then they kind of go womp,
like you did with the toilet training.
And then what often happens, too, and
you're, you're gonna notice this, you
probably are noticing this already, is
that then as they start to go forward, you
usually know that the next leap is usually
Pre, there's something happens before the
next leap forward, which is a backwards
thing, a slide backwards where you- Yeah
think, "Oh my God, they're
losing this skill that they had."
And then you, you panic, panic, and
then- But you keep it all going.
Yeah.
You keep it all going, all the movements-
Yeah ⦠stuff, all the neuroplasticity.
And then it's like from here they go boom.
It's like they- That's right ⦠they come
back on their heels, and then they jump.
And then after a while, after some
years, you learn to have faith
in that cycle, in that process.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes,
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
It doesn't mean that you don't freak
out a little bit every time they do
that little slide backwards, but you
also learn that that little slide
backwards usually means there's
gonna be a leap forward within- Yeah
usually within a fortnight.
Yeah ⦠and we've now seen this played
out so often that we realize that this
is sort of how the brain goes with the
kid, the brain and the nervous system.
Mm-hmm.
Provided you keep up all the supports
at home, which you have really done.
And so I guess the next part of
the conversation is logically
to ask you what's next.
So, you know, you c- you, you, you can
bring us up to date with sort of where
Donatello is now, but I know that you're
making interesting plans for next summer.
Yes.
Basically not unlike on what we
did with Rowan in terms of making-
Yeah ⦠journeys of pilgrimages
around healing, but more specifically
targeted, which is interesting.
And then where you see this
going over the next few years.
So j- f- first question,
where's Donatello now?
Just tell us
Laila Rahmatian: that.
Oh, Donatello is, is four.
When he was diagnosed at two, he,
we worked with you at when he just
turned th- right, yeah, three.
Yeah, three going on four.
And so he's four, he's gonna be five
soon, and we started school this week.
And where he is now is I
already see a huge difference
in how he's diving into school.
His brother is now joining him in the
school, and that's been really good for me
'cause I was in two different schools last
year and driving, like, five hours a day.
And that wasn't good for Donatello.
So he's doing really, really well.
Since, since those sessions in July, we,
we just didn't move him at this entire
summer, and we did a lot of nature.
We dived into nature.
I took your recommendation,
you know, getting into nature.
Because the place we got, we booked it.
We, we, we got it right after you
said nature, and we told our agent a
place of nature, and she said, "Okay,
I have this place and this place.
This one has nature."
And I- when we went there, and
there was three parks around.
And that has been great for us to
just get out and not have to drive.
And that sum- and this summer
we just took advantage of
being in the water, the stream.
And as of July 1st, Donatello
is now self-initiating going
And that has been huge.
Michael and- Where's he at verbal now?
His verbal, he's now
saying four-word sentences.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
So he went from saying, "Up, down,"
to, "I want more blueberries."
So he is pointing.
I am now trying to create an
environment through theâ¦
'Cause I'm looking to get- I'm
going to get him in my Movement
Method evaluations, 'cause I did
Movement Method one, two online- Yeah
and then I did it in person with Andre- So
you're gonna be a Movement Methodist now.
I'm go- I guess I am.
I am.
I am.
Yeah.
And-
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's the
logical thing, 'cause you're gonna- Oh,
yes ⦠do your whole life doing Movement
Method, so you might as well you might
Laila Rahmatian: as
Rupert Isaacson: well- Yes ⦠become
a practitioner as well as just
a, a receiver of services.
You become a service provider,
not just a service user.
Yeah, yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: And it's, again,
the same thing that you said in the
beginning, like, if you learn this
method y- you said something to me in
our first consultation that you can be
two different types of professionals.
One where you're paying a professional,
you're a professional payer, or
you're a professional getting paid.
And I wasâ¦
That really resonated with me.
I was like, "You know, I don't
wanna do the first option.
I want the second option."
But also have that balance altogether.
So in the summer we went to this
place called Schloss Freudenberg.
I watched your videos on YouTube.
I really like your YouTube channel, that
your videos really break things down.
And it's really is helpful
to kinda go- go off of that.
So I watched your, your Movement Method
in action on Schloss Freudenberg, and we
went every Friday, and that was, like,
a new routine for us, and that was good.
Then we went to the parks-
Schloss Freudenberg, by
Rupert Isaacson: the way, it's
like a, an interactive- Oh, yes
museum in an old stately home
outside Wiesbaden in Germany.
Yeah.
And they've taken the park and the
forest and put all of these amazing
sensory interactive things in
Laila Rahmatian: it.
Oh, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And then
inside the old building as well.
It's like- movement method on steroids.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it, it's
an extraordinary place, so if
anyone's in Germany, you should
check out Schloss Freudenberg.
We'll, we'll put a thing
in the show notes, yeah.
Oh, sh- And also, by the way, Henrik and
Gitty up in- Yes ⦠Munster, and Karla
down in Heidelberg, who she just referred
to, and Eva- Yeah ⦠down in Stuttgart.
These are all very, very good
profe- providers of Horse Boy-
Yeah ⦠Movement Method, yeah, yeah.
Indeed.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
And, and I, and I, I have to say this
while we're talking about these places.
I am trying to also shape my travels
to where Horse Boy Movement Method
is, and we can definitely talk about
that more because I'm an expat.
I'm here toâ¦
I'm we literally feel like we moved
here to work with you and this tribe.
I know my husband's job was the
reason that was the start of the
conversation, but it really was,
the deciding factor was to move
here to work with you and your team.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's a wonderful
thing too that the Frankfurt International
School where you're sending Donatello,
it happens to have quite a lot of people
who've been trained in movement method.
Mm-hmm.
So they're very familiar with that,
and they have an outdoor classroom
and, you know, a lot of- Yes ⦠and
they take the kids to the forest,
and there's a, there's a lot of
really good resources there for that.
But,
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: so tell us, tell
us also your plans for next summer
because I think this is really-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
Rupert Isaacson: a useful thing
for other autism parents to think
about- Uh-huh ⦠how you might
begin to organize your travel.
Laila Rahmatian: Absolutely.
Well, I, I, how I saw the benefit of
being in places where there is that
sensory component and then going to
see Hendrik and Gideon, just makingâ¦
I call it Horse Boy adventure trips
is, you know how people go to Disney
World and they're like, "Oh, I'm going
to Disney," like there's six places.
I'm like thinking this is like our
version of doing it, but it's so
much more fun because it's not.
It's just much more fun.
And so what I'm planning on doing,
and I'm hoping this works out, is
that I want to tr- plan my trips
around places that there is Horse Boy.
And for next summer, I am hoping, if
this works out, that I could do something
like you did in Mongolia and in these
other countries where you did healing,
but to do it in a Horse Boy style.
Doing it a Horse Boy pilgrimage
where we stay- Where you go from
Horse Boy place to Horse Boy place.
Yes.
J- because we have e- we
will have eight weeks off.
Great idea.
And, and I, I just don't know how
it's gonna work out, but I wanna start
planning now because it would be so cool
to just experience that, and then the
transition won't be as difficult because
it's in nature, and I can get support.
'Cause all
Rupert Isaacson: the people
know exactly what to do.
Yeah, yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
So you- And I just don't know if anyone
else has done that, and that's kind of why
I'm thinking like, "Okay, so there's so
many of these different Horse Boy places.
Is there like a Horse Boy travel agency or
a Horse Boy travel support system here?"
Not yet.
Not yet.
So I'm- Yeah ⦠I'm happy to be a guinea
pig, honestly, Rupert, but I loveâ¦
I, I'm, I just know
that I need that tribe.
It's just good for me.
It, it's been good for me, and that's
one thing I want parents to know,
and I, I feel complied to share this
because I don't know of any other
autism parent that's going through
these support systems that are feeling
good while helping their child.
It's like they put their child away,
they get an hour break, they doom
scroll, they s- take a nap, but they
don't know how to work with their child.
And one thing that I am doing is I'm
trying to create this environment in
my house that's prompting for speech,
and I do plan on getting my movement
method evaluations, But I h- I have to
think that seeing some schools that are
applying this method has been helping
me to have that conversational lingo.
And I know a lot of schools don't have
that lingo yet, but I'm really scared to
go back to Indiana and not have this, and
I'm hoping, which you and I have worked
on, trying to bring that to Indiana and
with the people that are interested in it.
But yes, t- going back to the summer,
I'm hoping to create a horse boy
pilgrimage, and I'm gonna come up with
a better name, like a horse boy trip or-
Rupert Isaacson: I think what
pilgrimage is a great, is, is great
because I, I tell you why- Pilgrimage
pilgrimage is so great.
Laila Rahmatian: Okay, tell me.
Rupert Isaacson: The, the concept
of pilgrimage has been, of the
sacred journey, has been there
since the dawn of humanity.
Laila Rahmatian: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: The idea that you
move your ass if you want to move your
spiritual and internal state somehow.
You actually physically move your body
and you go to, you, you sort of say
to the universe, "I will expend the
physical energy to visit sacred sites."
This is exactly what I did with Rowan,
going looking for healers, but people
do this whether they go to Lourdes, v-
And, but w- where I think that it works
and where it doesn't work is when one
makes a sacred journey like that to a
sacred- Okay ⦠nature site or sacred
spiritual site or whatever, which people
do in all religions and all types of
spirituality, and it's, it's always there.
If you go with the attachment,
this is only worth it if I get the
outcome that I am- Oh ⦠make,
trying to make a bargain with God.
You know, I will do this
if you give me this, God.
It's not the way to do it.
The only way to do it, and this is tough,
but this is part of the spiritual process,
is to say, "I will do this anyway."
Yes.
Because it has intrinsic value as its
own journey of interest and development
for myself and my child and curiosity
and to a new place and new people and
I will do it whether it works or not.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
I
Rupert Isaacson: will do it.
If it works, fantastic.
If I get the healing I'm looking
for or the results I'm looking for.
If it doesn't work to
that degree, fantastic.
I still made this amazing journey.
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And it was the dilemma in
front of me, in this case the autism, that
compelled me to make this amazing journey.
That still has enormous validity.
So that is the spirit one has to do it in.
Okay.
And then that sort of takes
away the blockages that might-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: stand between The
internal blockages that might stand
between someone getting actually the
outcome that they want to know, and
then the outcome that they want might
come in a way that is unexpected.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But one has to go
in a little bit with that cultivated
non-attachment, which is not easy.
Yeah
and one has toâ¦
It means you are gonna fall
into attachment sometimes, but
then when you notice that you're
there, you think, "Ooh, hold on.
Do I really wanna be here, or do I
actually want to notice how cool these
mountains are that I'm driving through?"
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: You know?
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, you're
gonna make this journey and-
Yeah ⦠go all these journeys.
And as far as I know, you said you were
gonna do it in the UK where between
the different Horse Boy centers there.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
I'm, I'm looking at your recommendations
you know, 'cause you're my mentor,
you're my friend, I trust you.
But also every single person that you have
connected me with has just been amazing.
Yeah, the Horse Boy network is incredible.
Not just ⦠I, I just can't
get over how amazing they are.
No drama, no disrespect, everyone's
understanding, everyone's doing
their th- their, their style
of practice their own way.
I mean, I just love it.
I want to be a part of it.
And I've, I also love that
there's no judgment that I
don't know how to ride yet.
And I- ⦠I want to ride.
But again- As if there's any
Rupert Isaacson: judgment on that.
Yeah
⦠Laila Rahmatian: I know.
I know.
But it's- I'm com- That would be
insane ⦠you have to understand,
Rupert, you have to understand, I'm coming
from a very competitive environment.
I have been in competitive
environments, you know, with sports,
with career, and, and autism,
and being a mother, and all that.
Like, you're always being
told, like, "You've got to do
this, you've got to do that."
And here it's like, "You're doing great.
You're doing a great job."
And-
Rupert Isaacson: You
are doing a great job.
Yeah.
You are.
You are doing a great job.
There's- I appreciate that ⦠no
question that you're doing a
Laila Rahmatian: great job.
Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: And
all of the, all of the
Any, any practitioner knows that
one's success with a child only
goes as far as the partnership
and support with the family.
My efforts are only as good as
y- the efforts that you put in.
My efforts complement your
efforts, but you're the one who
actually lives with that child.
So-
It, it's like when I write a book, I
know that the book only will be good
if the publisher and the editor and
the writer, which would be me, all
have a symbiotic relationship in which-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: we're
in service to the story.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And if we can have that
As the main thing, follow the child,
in this case is follow the story Yeah
⦠then it will probably be pretty good.
But if we, if one of us has an
agenda that is outside of that, it,
the quality will just not be there.
And-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: I've
seen this time and again.
So when I say you're doing an amazing job
th- that data which you were so kind to
share with us and that chronology of, of
development with Donatello I just want
to be clear that this is not just because
the practitioners involved were good.
It was because you Made it
possible for the practitioners
to have a base to work from.
This is crucial.
And as y- you know, as y- y- you
gonna move into, you know, the
professional side of this and become a
practitioner, you'll very quickly see
how, how far or how far you don't get-
Yeah ⦠is entirely the family culture.
Laila Rahmatian: It, I
agree with you on that.
I appreciate you saying that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And I- It's
Laila Rahmatian: hard to
hear that feedback too, so.
Rupert Isaacson: And a
shout-out to, to Andrew, to your
husband, 'cause he's top-notch.
And he isn't just a pa- you know,
a dude who goes out there to
make the money to make it happen.
He's also completely reorganized
his life to follow the child.
Laila Rahmatian: He's so giving.
He is.
He drops everything- Yeah ⦠to
helps me out, and he does a lot that-
Rupert Isaacson: He's,
he's, he's a great man.
He's a great man.
He is.
And, you know, all of these things
have to, you know, if, if, if
one is a single parent, then the
question is well, who is the tribe?
Who is the extended family
unit, even if they're not blood
relatives, around this child?
But we're tribal social apes
who are supposed to live
in nature, foraging- Mm-hmm
hunting, and gathering.
The closer we live to
that, the better we'll do.
Yeah.
And the further we get from
it, the worse we'll do, period.
Laila Rahmatian: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, take
a fish out of water, blah, blah.
So with the, the, the, the
practitioners you're looking at, I
know in the UK to do this effectively
sacred journey, you're looking at-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: Alex in Alex Northover
at- Yeah ⦠Making Momentum in Cheshire.
She's very good- I'm getting- ⦠I know
⦠Laila Rahmatian: yeah, Making Momentum.
The, the names you gave
me, I'm looking at them.
You were, you did a map.
Yes ⦠I have the map here.
You made a
Rupert Isaacson: map.
I think probably Nicole Gillard.
Nicole Gillard down
Laila Rahmatian: in- I, I think so-
Somerset
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but,
Laila Rahmatian: but to the- At
Rupert Isaacson: Move the Mind.
She's amazing
⦠Laila Rahmatian: you, you have
given me some ⦠You gave me a
map, and I'm trying to- Nicola
Rupert Isaacson: Hepburn in Warwickshire.
Yeah.
She's amazing.
She- Equine Learning is her place.
Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: And you mentioned
Ireland as well, and I think
you also mentioned Scotland.
Indeed.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
So I'm look- Horse Manage UK-
Laila Rahmatian: I'm looking at-
in
Rupert Isaacson: Scotland by Aberdeen.
Ireland is a plethora of amazing people.
Yeah.
Liskenard, David Doyle's
place down in Limerick.
Yes.
Stewart's Care Terry Brosnan outside,
and Child Vision in Dublin and others.
Yeah, no.
There, there's a- There's a
lot to choose from, and, You've
Laila Rahmatian: done a lot.
You've done a lot, Rupert.
I'm so proud of you for what
Rupert Isaacson: you've done.
I can'tâ¦
I- you're kind, and thank you.
I, I can't take credit for these people.
These people would have been
awesome if they had never met me.
They were awesome before they met
me, and they're awesome, you know.
Yeah.
They're just awesome.
It's just that we are
colleagues and we share- Yeah
a common vision.
Yeah, yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: But you have done a
great job, and I want you to alsoâ¦
I wanna give you something and,
and tell you that- You are a
messenger, and you did a great job
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.
Laila Rahmatian: I'm proud
Rupert Isaacson: of you I guess the one
that we really should give the shout-out
to here is Rowan, is Scub, because-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: without him,
none of this would be here
Laila Rahmatian: No.
Rupert Isaacson: He is my continual
mentor, because he's now- Yes ⦠24,
and each new phase of life he gets
to, I have to rethink my game.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: say, "Okay, well, I
know how to work with a seven-year-old.
Okay, now I know how to
work with a 13-year-old.
Okay, now I knowâ¦"
Wow.
"Ooh, now you're- Yeah ⦠25.
Okay."
Yes.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yeah, and- And
and it gets more complex, not less.
As it should, yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Yeah.
But no, I mean, you're humble
and you're very kind, and Iâ¦
You've changed my life.
You've made a huge impact in
my life, and in my, our lives.
And I just want, I want more people
to know about your work, and I wantâ¦
I mean, I have a podcast now, and I'm,
I'm, I've changed the podcast to now
document this journey for Donatello.
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do
what you're doing, but my way,
on, instead of writing the book,
I'm gonna do it through a podcast.
Yeah.
And I'm excited to have you on the
show and all the other people that
are on my team that have been helping
me with Donatello, because I do feel
like- Yeah ⦠this is something
that people need to know about.
100%.
And I'm just so shocked
that I stumbled upon it,
Rupert Isaacson: so what, as you know,
when we train people in our methods,
they go off and do it their way There's
a, there's a standard of horse care,
and - training, and there's a standard
of follow the child and understanding
of neuroscience and environment- Yeah
that we need to see.
But in terms of the application of
the toolbox that we give people, the
last thing we want to do is get in
the way of their creativity, and the
last thing we want to do- Yeah ⦠is
get in the way of their business.
But like you, I do know
what you're saying.
If, if when my son was diagnosed,
if there had been Horse Boy, if
there had been Movement Method-
Yeah ⦠man, I would've jumped on it.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Yes.
And that's what I'm saying is
like, okay, maybe you don't wanna
franchise, but that- that's whyâ¦
So my podcast, Mm-hmm
um, is called- Yeah, letting
Rupert Isaacson: people
know is a fantastic idea.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Yeah, I, I mean, like, 'cause Iâ¦
My podcast is called Launching
Forward Autism, and I will beâ¦
You know, I just startâ¦
I just, I just went public last December.
You really motivated me to
share my story and go public.
We actually told everybody during
Christmas that Donatella has
autism and we're doing this.
I didn't want to tell people in the begi-
because I didn't want people to have
different suggestions or recommendations.
Mm-hmm.
But I just feel like working,
wanting to do this work, and I
don't wanna keep it a secret.
I want to tell people about it
because there were, like, four
families that have come up to me
and asking me what is it I'm doing.
And I'm like, "Yeah, you
haven't heard of it, have you?"
And like, "No, I haven't."
And I would love it to make
it my mission now, 'cause, you
know, I'm all about mission.
Going from the space industry now
to go into the autism industry,
this is my, my miss- is now my
mission is to provide options than
rather than just one protocol, but
to be having five protocol options.
When a parent finds out their child
has autism, it'd be nice to have,
"These are the options for you."
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And, and an expectation,
therefore, of a good outcome.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, when,
when the doctors presented me with
a diagnosis, they also presented
it in a very negative light.
Yes.
And I remember thinking-
I don't believe that.
I believe that it could be that way-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but I don't
believe it has to be that way.
Yeah.
And I do know that this doctor who's
talking to me is not an autism parent.
I need to go find where those autism
parents are that have had- Yes ⦠a good
outcome, and I need to know where the
autistic people are who started life where
my son was, who have had a good outcome.
Yeah.
And that's how I found
my way to Temple Grandin.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you know, so it,
there is such a good message out
there, and it's not being delivered.
But what it does require And it is true
that not every family wants to do this.
It does require the kind of buy-in and
cultural shift of the family life towards
nature and follow the child- Mm-hmm
that you've done.
Because y- y- you know,
that wasn't your upbringing.
You grew up in the suburbs of Houston.
You know, I was the one I'd say,
"Hey, no, look, get the apartment
where you can walk directly out
to the stream, to the forest."
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: If you can't have
one directly, the minimum distance-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: because you're
gonna need to be in there hours a
day, and you're gonna have to- Yeah
tell all your other therapists and
practitioners to be in there hours a day.
And if they don't wanna be in there
hours a day, keep interviewing
until you find the one that does.
You know, not everybody wants to do that.
Some people just, you know, for
perhaps very good reasons, they're,
they're exhausted or whatever- Yeah
just wanna say, "I wanna drop my
kid off at therapy, pick him up."
Theâ¦
And although I can understand it and I
can empathize with it, it won't work.
There has to be this-
Laila Rahmatian: I, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you have, one
has to give one's life over to it.
Yeah.
But the thing is, what I always
say is you get-- it's gonna
take over your life anyway.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
I know,
Rupert Isaacson: and I had to- So if
you were facing the ocean, you know.
Laila Rahmatian: Well,
Rupert, I have to disagree.
I cannot empathize with those
people that don't wanna do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.
Laila Rahmatian: I'm sorry, I don't
Rupert Isaacson: empathize.
People can have a thousand
reasons and, and you know, they
may not have the resources.
And by the resources, I don't
mean financial, I mean internal.
Laila Rahmatian: That,
okay, then I can empathize
Rupert Isaacson: with them.
That's for sure ⦠you know,
there can be, there can be reasons.
But-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: theâ¦
And you know, sometimes they're
not right for it now, but maybe-
Laila Rahmatian: Okay
⦠Rupert Isaacson: they develop.
Because the, the other thing too is
I know you've seen this in yourself.
We talk so much about the kid and h- and
how one's children are going to develop
their brains in these environments- Mm-hmm
that we create with what we
do, but it's free out there.
It's called nature.
It's called Planet Earth.
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But what also happens,
and you've seen this in yourself,
is your own brain structure changes.
Your own nervous system changes.
You f- you get happier, you get
cleverer, because- Mm-hmm ⦠you get
more neurons, because you're in BDNF.
Mm-hmm.
And you you just-
enter a whole other frame of
being, which is actually much,
which is mental healthâ¦
So, yeah, the, this, th-
this is what I oftenâ¦
I told you this at the
beginning.
Yes.
Your own quality of life
will massively improve-
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: if you dive into what
is required in terms of the interaction
with nature and the, then the people
you'll meet and the tribe you'll-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson:
cultivate and all of this.
That right now, you know,
when we first met, you're
isolated, you're afraid- Mm-hmm
you're unsupported, and your brain-
Yeah ⦠your e- endocrine system
and your nervous system and your
emotional is not doing so good.
Yeah ⦠and remember I said you'll
look up six months into this and go,
"I've spent more time in the forest.
I've spent more time around animals.
I've met more cool people."
Yes.
"I now know what that type of bird is.
I now know what that type of tree is."
Yes.
"I now have all these different resources,
which I didn't really have before."
Yeah.
"And I myself get that nature time."
So you know, it, the, the benefits
are actually for the whole family.
Mm-hmm.
But it can be hard to see
that at the beginning.
Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: E- yeah, and it, and
I would say that I didn't, I wasn'tâ¦
Personally, I was, I took it all in,
and it took, like, that meet, that
first meeting that I c- that I had with
you, it took me, like, five months.
Like, you gave an as- gave me
that assignment, and it took
me five months to fulfill it.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is actually pretty
Laila Rahmatian: good.
I, I-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but-
Laila Rahmatian: Okay.
No, but I'm ha- I'm happy I did
it because it gave me so much
motivation, and I'm very grateful.
Like, I just, I'm just
so grateful how we met.
I'm so grateful.
I just can't get over how grateful I am
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm,
I'm, I'm grateful back.
I'm grateful to you for embarking on
this journey, and I'm grateful to allâ¦
just a shout-out to all those Horse
Boy Movement practitioners out there.
You've mentioned quite a few
of them, 'cause I put you-
Mm-hmm ⦠in touch with many.
And you've- Oh, yeah ⦠you've gone
and checked them all out, and- I
love it ⦠let Portello and yourself
benefit from their amazing universes.
But who are the people that we've
talked about just in this podcast?
We've talked about Henrik and Gitty- Yeah
⦠Berkhoff, who run Green Care Farm-
Laila Rahmatian: yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: in Arlen,
near Münster in Germany.
Mm-hmm.
We've talked about Carla Brahms,
who runs- Yes ⦠Wellenreiter
WaveRider in- Yes ⦠heidelberg.
Mm-hmm.
We've talked about in the UK Alex, Dr.
Alex Northover- Yes ⦠w- who
runs Making Momentum in Cheshire.
We talked about Nicole Gillard, who
runs- Yes ⦠move the Mind in Somerset.
We've talked about- Wow ⦠Nicola
Hepburn, who runs Equine Learning near
Stratford-on-Avon in the Midlands.
We've talked about David Doyle, who- Yes
runs Liskinick Farm in Ireland.
Or actually- Yeah ⦠he's officially
retired, but he's still in the-
Laila Rahmatian: Are you serious or no?
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: I say officially retired.
Oh.
And who's now just opened up a
new Horse Boy center in, in County
Cork- Yes ⦠called Can Turk.
We've talked about Terry
Brosnan in Ireland- Yes
at Stuart's Care in Meath.
Yes.
We've talked about Lucy Dillon.
Laila Rahmatian: Joelle.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah,
w- not yet, we haven't.
So Lucy Dillon- We gotta keep going.
Lucy Dillon ⦠who runs
Child Vision in Dublin.
And Joelle Dunlap, the amazing
Joelle Dunlap in in San
Francisco Square Peg Foundation.
And these are just some.
Oh, yeah.
But I just wanna, I wanna tell you
guys, I stand in awe of your awesomeness
As practitioners and I, so
you talked about gratitude.
I'm just, I'm very grateful
to be involved in this-
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: too.
Laila Rahmatian: It's, it's m- we
also, did I mention these people?
But I spoke to them Cheryl
Barto and Megan McGavern.
Rupert Isaacson: Cheryl Barto of
Smiling Goat Ranch on the western
slope- ⦠of the Rocky Mountains.
Smiling Goat Ranch.
Autism mom.
Yeah.
Amazing practitioner.
Yes, Dr.
Megan McGavern, another autism mom- Yeah
⦠who runs CHATS, Chats ⦠Cold Horse and
Autism, Yeah ⦠Station in Virginia.
Who runs our neuroscience biannual
conference- Mm-hmm ⦠at the University
Eastern Virginia Medical School.
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But also has
an incredible v- yeah, w- h- I
can't believe in some ways- I
Laila Rahmatian: know
Rupert Isaacson: it's playing out
It's unbelievable ⦠these people.
Kez, Dr.
Kez Sullivan, who does all the-
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: the research and puts
together all, all the data- Yes ⦠for
us, and, and it, it, it's incredible.
It's incredible.
Laila Rahmatian: And then another
person that really validated you
and your identity is Catherine
from, Oh, Catherine Griffin
One Acre Farm.
She, she was the one- Is One Acre
Farm- I, I met her- ⦠in Houston.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes, yes.
'Cause when I met you- Movement
Method masterpiece, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it's, it is, I will say I do,
I like moving fast, and I move quickly.
But this is my son, and yeah,
two weeks after I met you, I
was like, "So who do you know?
I'm gonna go to Houston."
Like, "You say you have a tribe," and that
was the first person you re- referred me
to, and she was speaking so highly of you.
She's like, "He's great."
I was like, "Is this, is, is he legit?"
Like, "Yes, this is the
guy," and everything.
But to me, mo- most importantly,
it's like that this, it was
just too good to be true.
It was where my, my confirmation, I was
like, "This is all too good to be true."
And I personally feel like I feel
obligated that you giving me all
this infor- all this value and
support, I feel obligated to share
it and give it back to other people
because they need to know this.
Rupert Isaacson: People need it.
People need it.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And,
Laila Rahmatian: They do ⦠I'm
Rupert Isaacson: really intrigued to see
what will be the practice, the Movement
Method practice that you will create.
And- Thank you ⦠then I'll be
the one saying, "You know what?
Go to Layla."
Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's
probably be in Indianapolis.
Laila Rahmatian: Well, yeah, and I'm, I'm,
I'm impressed to see where it has taken
me, and I'm excited to see where it goes.
But it, it, it is that, it is this space.
I call this tribe, like, an incubator-
Yeah ⦠that you have this, these
visions and, and, and what Joelle
said is dream mapping or she said
a b- special word, like we can
dream or we can we can plan things.
Like, she was not judgmental at all.
But she's like, "We can
definitely dream map it and see
what can evolve out of this."
'Cause I was telling you before, I
had decided to do certain things last
summer with you trying to s- spread
the word of Horse Boy and Move Method
in other places, and we were able to
look into that and make that possible.
But no I really hope that we canâ¦
I really am hoping that with my son, he's
like Rowan, and I'm starting to see that.
Rupert Isaacson: He's so like Rowan.
And I mean, even now, and now
that he's doing so much better and
he has become, he is verbal, and
he is- Yeah ⦠toilet trained.
But the, he, he's, he is so like Rowan.
And you now know Rowan as an adult.
Yeah.
So you sort of have a, a, a goal now.
Laila Rahmatian: Like a, like a path,
a framework to- Yeah ⦠to look.
Yeah.
An example.
And that has been giving me a lot of hope.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
No, and it has, that's also
been good for me, too, and I
know we have to wrap up soon.
But as a person like me, I need to see
examples of hope, and that he has been
such a great example of hope for me
because it's not even two years, and
I'm, I have my emotions go up and down,
and I, I would say I'm still mourning.
But it's getting less and less
of- Yeah ⦠of that worry.
Yeah.
So yeah.
In many ways, so.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Well, listen, thank you.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
But thank you so much for this,
Laila Rahmatian: Le.
You're welcome.
Rupert Isaacson: And,
Laila Rahmatian: You're welcome
⦠Rupert Isaacson: we will
see you on the next one.
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yes, definitely.
I can't wait.
Thank you so much, Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.
Laila Rahmatian: Bye-bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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