[00:00:00] Shannon: So when, as owners or leaders, we, we make adjustments in the business or take on a new effort, we have to really communicate those changes and those shifts in direction through the eyes of the employees.
[00:00:17] Michael: Hi, I'm Michael Hyatt.
[00:00:18] Megan: And I'm Megan Hyatt Miller.
[00:00:19] Michael: And you're listening to The Double Wind Show.
[00:00:21] Megan: And today we are so excited to talk to our friends, Brian and Shannon Miles.
[00:00:27] Michael: Let me tell you just a little bit about them. I've known them now for about 15 years, but they're seasoned entrepreneurs, business mentors.
[00:00:34] They co founded Belay, a company that grew to a hundred million in revenue. Which is amazing all by itself, because when I started with them, I hired my first executive assistant, virtual executive assistant with them back in 2011. If you can believe it. And
[00:00:48] Megan: she's now their CEO.
[00:00:50] Michael: Yeah. So my executive assistant became the CEO, Tricia.
[00:00:52] So they're also the founders of a nonprofit called Owner. And that's spelled O apostrophe N R. Check out their [00:01:00] website. But a platform helping business owners thrive personally and professionally. They're also the owners of Nofo Brew Company, a Georgia based brewery, advocates for building businesses that owners can step away from without disruption and passionate about mentoring entrepreneurs to create meaningful legacies.
[00:01:17] You know, Brian was one of the first people that talked to me about mentoring being intentional about mentoring. And he introduced me to another organization and that was my first.
[00:01:29] And so I had about eight or 10 young guys that I met with once a month and it was a great experience. But Brian and Shannon are just dear friends and I think you guys can really take a lot away from this conversation.
[00:01:45] Brian, Shannon, welcome. Good to see you guys. Great to see you guys. It's been
[00:01:49] Shannon: a while. It's really nice to see
[00:01:50] Michael: you again. It's been too long, but it just seems like the time flies. And unfortunately, when you don't live in proximity to one another, You have less opportunity to see each [00:02:00] other. And I hate that, but I don't know how to fix it.
[00:02:01] Megan: Communes. That's how you fix it. That's what I'm thinking about lately. What are we going to do to get a commune going here?
[00:02:08] Michael: For people that don't know you, I want you to talk about the journey. And I don't know if you want to start back before you founded Belay, or if you want to start back when you were five.
[00:02:18] Just whatever is relevant to the context here.
[00:02:20] Bryan: Well, I don't know if we have time for counseling, but we can certainly, uh, we can certainly share maybe the start from just before Belay, well, when we actually, we first met you before that. It was a season For Shannon and I, where we were, had two jobs, we, we were parents to young kids, two and five, and we were at a place in our lives where we just crave more freedom.
[00:02:42] We didn't have that with our jobs. So we really wanted to find a different place. I would love to think that we were motivated mostly by that. The idea of maybe having more money one day, but really when we started our company. In 2010, I was really motivated and birthed out of just this desire for [00:03:00] freedom for us and for our family.
[00:03:01] Shannon: So we started belay the fall of that year and it grew like wildfire and we rode the rocket as we were building it as we went for a long time and we went through a lot of ups and downs with the business, you know, fast forward to 2021 where we had an exit for the business, a majority recap, and it was kind of life altering.
[00:03:25] And a lot of different ways, financially, obviously, but a lot of personal development came through that process. And so now as we sit here today, you know, we're on the other side of a transaction, but we're still very much building a business through a Nofo, We have an event business that we're creating and a nonprofit that we're launching.
[00:03:45] So we have a lot of different interests and things that we feel like we are led to do, but we're also in the season of. Raising teenagers and our daughter just went off to college in the fall and that's created a different dynamic in [00:04:00] our family. And we have a son who's in the 10th grade. We've been married for 28 years this year.
[00:04:06] Wow. So we have raised each other. We
[00:04:10] Bryan: have raised each other. Yeah.
[00:04:11] Michael: By the way, for those of you that don't know Belay Solutions, basically the idea was that they provide executive assistance. Bookkeeping, some other services, so that you, if you need an executive assistant, and we highly recommend them, you don't have to hire somebody full time.
[00:04:26] And so you can hire somebody part time. And what does our relationship go back to?
[00:04:31] Bryan: I, as 2011, I can vividly tell you, we took a vacation at the first nine months of our business, which we had no business doing, but we, we valued the time with our family to do that. And we flew out to Salt Lake city cause we were intending to go to Jackson hole.
[00:04:45] And we rented a car and we were driving north. And our first ever client texted me while we were driving up and said, Hey, Michael Hyatt just tweeted that he's looking for an executive assistant or virtual assistant, and I saw your tweet. And so I sent you a [00:05:00] message and we DM back and forth. And we had a call later that day that lasted about 20 minutes.
[00:05:04] We talked about Andy Stanley, cause he's our pastor. You asked for a contract the next day we negotiated it. And we were in Yellowstone Bear world in Rexburg, Idaho. And then you decided to tweet it. I'm working with this company and literally by the time we drove two hours from Rexburg, Idaho to Jackson hole, we had about 50 qualified sales leads in our
[00:05:23] Megan: inbox.
[00:05:25] So
[00:05:25] Michael: basically I screwed up your vacation.
[00:05:28] Bryan: Hardly. It was one of the best vacations ever because I took 30 minute sales calls looking at the Tetons.
[00:05:34] Michael: It's been a very gratifying, not only business relationship because Tricia, who's now the CEO, was my first assistant. So I've had a long run with you guys in business partnerships, so to speak.
[00:05:47] And then we became friends. And that's been the wonderful part of this. And so we've done some vacationing together and hung out together. And it's always a joy to see you guys and be with you. And, and I will say this, despite the fact that [00:06:00] you were in charge of a startup and all that's involved in that and did that for many years, you know, the company became very successful.
[00:06:08] And now you had this transaction where it was positive financially, and you came to the other side of it, but I haven't seen a change in you guys. For the worse, you know, you just keep getting better with age and let's be honest, you're getting kind of old now. So,
[00:06:23] Bryan: you know, she's reversing. I'm not, that's exactly
[00:06:28] Megan: how it's supposed to work.
[00:06:29] Okay. So I have a question for you guys, as y'all were talking, I was thinking, well. A lot of the work you do now is with business owners. And so there's going to be a lot in this conversation that business owners will get out of this. I think one of the other things you may not appreciate about yourselves that you have expertise in now is transitions and priorities in transitions.
[00:06:50] And I was thinking about, you know, you're building Belay, you ended up selling Belay. Now you have several other businesses that you started, including a nonprofit. [00:07:00] How do you guys decide what you're going to say yes to?
[00:07:03] Shannon: I think that has evolved over time. I think in the beginning when you're starting a business or you're in a new leadership role or leading a service line or whatever, you say yes to a lot because you're just trying to figure out what's going to work, what networking opportunities do I need to agree to?
[00:07:17] What events do I need to spend my time on? And you're testing the waters in a lot of ways. But over time and with the reality of time constraints, We've just gotten a lot more comfortable saying no or no, not now. And I used to feel like that was an opportunity killer. Like, Oh gosh, if you don't say yes to these opportunities, when are they going to come back?
[00:07:41] But in reality, after spreading ourselves too thin on a lot of different things that just saying yes all the time to everything that's exciting or shiny and new just wears you out and you're not really effective at it. At least I'm not. So I think for evaluating what. I say yes to you right now. I just Especially if it's a [00:08:00] big opportunity, just take a while to reflect on it.
[00:08:03] You know, big decision should take a little more time. And we are so clear on what we want the next three years to look like of our lives. The litmus test is, is very straightforward. Does it get us to our focus to freedom or does it not?
[00:08:18] Bryan: Mel Robbins actually helped us out the whole let them thing. Yeah. I just got that place where.
[00:08:23] You know, yes, I want to help as many people as I can, but I also, we have so many things we're already responsible for. I always felt this guilt, like I don't have the time and I finally got this place. The book really helped me. I'm like, they could be disappointed. I'm sorry, I just can't meet or, you know, it's going to be May, which is 90 days plus from when you ask.
[00:08:42] But yes, we can do that then and let them just be disappointed by that if they are. And then what I found is everybody seems to be pretty cool about that and they understand it. But I, I, that has been a really life giving thing for me. It's like, you know what, it's okay that they respond the way they want, let them and let me do what I need to do.
[00:08:58] I know it's, it sounds [00:09:00] such a simple principle, but it really helped alleviate a lot of my guilt. Yeah.
[00:09:04] Michael: It is hard because of FOMO. But I think, you know, we have to be intentional about who we're going to say no to, and even more to the point who we're going to disappoint because we could disappoint our family or we can disappoint the people that are often random people that we'll probably never see again.
[00:09:19] And that doesn't mean that they're not real people with real value and all of that, but I'm not called to help everybody. And the thing that's helped me is when I say no to somebody. Like an email response. I like to say, sounds like a heck of an opportunity. Wish I could do it, but here's the magic phrase in order to be faithful to my existing commitments, I have to say no.
[00:09:40] And I've had people write me back and say, thank you. What a gracious way to say no. And I totally get that because I, I am so overcommitted and I'm not faithful to the commitments I have now.
[00:09:53] Shannon: That's a really graceful way to put it. We had a situation recently where we met [00:10:00] somebody at a concert. Total random stranger, just sitting next to them.
[00:10:03] Had a great conversation. And text because we were like sharing pictures or whatever. And then I got a follow up, Hey, let's get together after the new year. And I just thought, If you had any idea how overbooked my life is right now, you would know what a ridiculous request that is. But I thought I could not respond.
[00:10:21] And I could just. Um, or I could just be honest. And so I responded and I said, it was really great to meet you guys. I'm in the season of my life right now where I don't have the time to commit to the people that are closest to me, let alone engage in new relationships, but I wish you all the best and hopefully our paths will cross someday in the future.
[00:10:41] Yeah. I just felt like that was the honoring way to do it. Now they didn't respond back, but whatever, let them let me, I felt great about my response, but, you know, and just the guilt I think is a big Part of that too, because we do have hearts to serve. We wouldn't do a lot of the things that we do if we didn't want to serve, but the absolution of the guilt of [00:11:00] knowing, like, no, I have to be in control of this because I'm responsible for myself and my leadership.
[00:11:06] And I know that if I extend myself too far, I'm not the best version of who I want to be. And so that's incumbent on me to hold those lines.
[00:11:16] Michael: Here's a weird thing. We don't feel guilt when we disappoint our family, or maybe we do, but in the moment, it's just kind of like, yeah, they'll understand, but somehow we care more about these strangers.
[00:11:26] Or I would say acquaintances than we do about the people closest to us. And that needs to stop.
[00:11:33] Bryan: I agree with you. I understand why people who win a lottery go bankrupt after, you know, a few years of it, because when we had our nine figure exit with belay, by the way, we're still involved with belay and very much on the board and connected to them, I am, and I will just tell you, like when that transaction went through, it kind of becomes public knowledge that.
[00:11:53] The miles as the largest shareholder basically received that kind of money. The amount of people that will reach out to you to [00:12:00] sell you something or to invest in their company. It's just overwhelming. At some point, you just have to say, we're not taking on any more investments or we're, you know, we just have to build these firewalls.
[00:12:12] That's actually easier for me. Then the person is like, Hey, I really want to learn about business or I'm thinking about a business idea. Maybe they're young and they're just starting out. Like that's harder for me to say no to
[00:12:22] Shannon: than
[00:12:22] Bryan: someone, you know, trying to ask for money for something for a, you know, a new thing that they're starting.
[00:12:28] Megan: Yeah.
[00:12:28] Michael: The funny thing too I've observed is I don't think there's ever been a time that I've said no to something that I later regretted it.
[00:12:33] Megan: Well that's what I wanted to ask you guys when you think about all the no's you've said, particularly post exit from belay. Has there been anything that you've regretted?
[00:12:44] Shannon: Gosh, I can't think of any. Honestly, some of the bigger regrets are the ones that I've said yes to and I've stretched myself.
[00:12:50] Megan: Ooh, that's
[00:12:51] Shannon: a good one. And I think it comes from a scarcity mindset. Yes. In some ways that I'm 47 and I'm still trying to I just, [00:13:00] and focus more on abundance because it feels like, you know, if I don't say yes, that opportunity might not come again.
[00:13:05] But I can't recall a time where I've said no to something and would have gone back and done it differently. Yeah. Isn't that interesting?
[00:13:12] Michael: I remember going into a boss. I had one time back when I was in the publishing business and I'd lost a big deal and we just missed it. And he looked at me and he said, you know what?
[00:13:21] There's always another deal. And it's true. You know, and sometimes you just meant. And I had a private coaching client about a month ago that was all eager. We sent him the contract, all of that. And then he just goes to this. And I thought, I think I just dodged a bullet. Yeah. Everything belongs as Richard Rohr would say.
[00:13:41] Shannon: Let me ask you guys this too, because you talk all the time about time management and owning your, your schedules and like that is so important for leaders. But I found that if I'm saying yes to everything and I'm over committing and my schedule is absolutely full, there's no space for creativity.
[00:13:57] There's no space for dreaming. [00:14:00] There's no space for. New ideas or realizations that there's friction in a certain area that busyness just covers those things up and you just keep moving forward. Yeah. So it's almost like being proactive to build in those spaces instead of reactive and fielding all the requests that are coming in.
[00:14:20] Do you guys experience that too?
[00:14:21] Megan: Totally, you know, interestingly, two or three weeks ago, I had an experience where I was trying to figure out something schedule wise that was like. Very much Tetris. You know how you, you have, you get, get on the phone. Like maybe you have an assistant or maybe you're talking to your spouse or something.
[00:14:37] And you're like, well, if you did this and I did that, and we renegotiated that and this and that, you know, and it was like, I was just trying to shoehorn something and like this teeny tiny little crack and make it work. And I told Joel, my husband that anytime I find myself doing Tetris, it feels like there's just all this energy around it that I'm probably in a place of fear.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] And not for me, not trusting God that the hours that I get every week are enough to do what he's called me to do to serve the people that I'm called to serve. It's either fear or greed, which I think in some ways are kind of flip sides of the same coin. You know, I think there's, there's like this grabbiness, you know, to it that I was really convicted of that when I feel that feeling.
[00:15:25] And I'm trying to make things work that just don't. And I'm going running from one thing to the next, to the next. There's a problem and that problem is usually me, you know, I'm not willing to accept the human limitations on my life And I'm and I'm not in a place of trust and surrender and I it was really convicting for me I want to think more about it and probably write about it because I think it's Most of us end up with more opportunities or things that we could say yes to then we have time And then the things that matter most easily fall by the wayside, you know, cause we just tell [00:16:00] ourselves I can do that later.
[00:16:01] Usually they're important, but they're not urgent. So yeah, I relate to that. Yeah.
[00:16:06] Shannon: We talked earlier about that magical moment, Mike, where you tweeted, you know, your desire to have an executive assistant. And I don't think it was coincidental that we were on vacation when that massive opportunity came through in our business.
[00:16:24] I think we've always prioritized travel. Brian mentioned one of our desires for entrepreneurship was freedom. And when do you have the time to do that as a leader? You have to make it right. And so even though it felt irresponsible in some ways to take a week long vacation nine months into our new business where we weren't even close to profitability, we were eating away at our start.
[00:16:48] 401ks that we invested in and we were building this thing, but no, we did this because we wanted time with our family. We wanted time to be able to travel and we wanted to have [00:17:00] unique experiences. And we trusted God with the business at that point to know like, yeah, we would still be working, but it's okay to live the kind of life that we felt called to live.
[00:17:10] And I don't think it was coincidental that when we. Trusted God with that season and just said, you know, it's bigger than us. And we're just going to be faithful that the opportunity to work with you and just what a life changing moment that became for us happened because we let go.
[00:17:35] Michael: I want to shift the conversation for a moment and talk about leadership and our audience is pretty diverse in the sense that we have business owners, we have corporate leaders, we have individual contributors. Just a little bit of everything. What is the thing that maybe individual contributors or corporate leaders don't understand about business ownership, [00:18:00] you know, like the good, the bad, and the ugly.
[00:18:01] Bryan: One of the biggest things that we've uncovered spending time with just. Literally hundreds and hundreds of business owners over 10 years with belay and, and then also, you know, looking deeply at what owner is about and, you know, why we kind of called it, we think to kind of create this nonprofit, but the biggest thing I think most employees are, you know, folks that aren't business owners that they don't understand about business owners in general is that a lot of them are lonely, actually isolated.
[00:18:28] Because they, they can't relate to employees that can't relate to the situation they're in, the stress and the, kind of the, the responsibility that carry and just encouraging employees to treat them like normal people. They have things going on in their life too. You know, they've got deaths and they've got birthday parties and they've got everything that is human about them.
[00:18:50] They just happen to be the business owner. When you literally get time around business owners, you're going to discover a lot of them are really lonely and isolated for different reasons. And that [00:19:00] might be shocking to employees or for folks that are not employers.
[00:19:04] Michael: Yeah. And I think the level of responsibility and you know, it's, it's not like if we own a business, we can complain about this because we signed up for it.
[00:19:12] Right. But it is a lot of responsibility and sometimes it feels overwhelming. And particularly if you're in a challenging economy, Like I know a lot of people were in a challenging economy during COVID and then the great recession before that. And those are, you know, I, I logged my fair share of sleepless nights and not worrying about the company so much.
[00:19:33] That was part of it for sure. But worrying about the employees and their families and, you know, this sense of obligation to. Help provide for them.
[00:19:41] Shannon: It is a huge responsibility and I've been an individual contributor and I, I didn't fully understand the weight of business ownership until I became a business owner.
[00:19:54] And it's not a, what was me, you're right. We signed up for this and there's a reason that the [00:20:00] majority of people are employed versus employers, but it doesn't mean that it's all just smooth sailing and you're riding on this adrenaline of. Creating this organization, there are moments where the weight of making payroll, making leadership decisions, coaching individuals, trying to find out if somebody is ready for promotion, having a difficult conversation, Oh, my books are not where I thought they were going to be.
[00:20:28] Oh, this tax bill came in like. And business owners would never burden their individual contributors with those things. But that's what's going on. That's what's going on in their minds and their hearts when they show up at a meeting and they still have to be the cheerleader and rally everybody behind this vision and the mission that you're on as an organization.
[00:20:49] But there's all the stuff going on under the surface that Employees just don't know and can't understand.
[00:20:56] Bryan: I, I have a great quick story about this. So this [00:21:00] couple that we've kind of mentored for years, they own a, a luxury travel business. They've grown it really well. They've got 60 folks. I mean, it's, it's Inc.
[00:21:08] Shannon: 5,000 fastest growing company.
[00:21:10] Bryan: They're, they're doing really, really well. And he was basically talking about like how hard it is just to be a business owner sometimes. And he said that one of his employees was like, well. And why can't the company just pay for this? He's like, I am the company, but I are the company.
[00:21:24] Like there's not some magical thing out there. The company will just pay for it.
[00:21:27] Shannon: So what you're asking is that I take money out of my pocket and
[00:21:31] Bryan: I'm the company. And I think sometimes a lot of employees, they don't, for whatever reason, and it's incumbent on the business owners to help employees understand this, that there is a responsibility.
[00:21:42] For us as business owners to teach them that there's, there's costs, but this is all because we own it and we're responsible, we're stewarding it. But there's not some magical company out there that's going to just, you know, pay these bills or do these new things. You know, it, that, I think that's a couple of the biggies for us.
[00:21:57] Michael: I was going to ask you if there was a story [00:22:00] that you can think of during the time that you were more involved with belay that was particularly challenging, where maybe you thought. You weren't going to make it or things were kind of on the edge.
[00:22:14] Shannon: Our story is, is very unique. We knew that we had something from the very beginning of the business, but one of the things that was a big challenge for us was growing too quickly.
[00:22:25] And it's a great problem to have, but it's a problem nonetheless. And we had grown up until, like, 2016, like, pretty rapidly. We had created all these different organizations, and each service line had its own company, and we thought that was the right thing to do. And we had created, inadvertently, a very complex, Structure.
[00:22:47] And we started to see our growth stall that year for the first time. And it just, all the things that were working before the market was like, what's going on here? And not rewarding these changes like they had in the past. And so we're [00:23:00] like, okay, we need to reevaluate. And what that meant for us was a desire to consolidate five different entities into one
[00:23:08] Bryan: and pause.
[00:23:08] It's five different entities. That's five different leadership structures. That's probably 4550 operating banking accounts. That's systems and process. That's sets of logins. That's people. That's org charts. It's five different things. You know, E. A. Help, which you do way back in the day is the virtual assistant side.
[00:23:27] That was one of those entities of the other. Four that were connected to this decision.
[00:23:31] Shannon: So it was a massive undertaking, but we felt like it was the right thing to do in the right time to do it, even though it was a one 80 from how we had cast vision for the team before candidly, that it was Brian's idea.
[00:23:45] Like, I think we need to consolidate. And I said, I think I agree. I just don't think I'm the one to lead through it. Hmm. I think this is the chance where my time here has come to an end. I don't think that I'm capable of leading through this consolidation. [00:24:00] And as much as it broke my heart and I had to do a lot of soul searching, I just felt like I can't do this.
[00:24:07] I'm not equipped and I'm not, I'm not able to. Wow. To lead through this. It was a really, really difficult time. It was
[00:24:13] Bryan: a couple of weeks that were pretty dark, you know, because we started this together. I didn't want to not do this with her, but she was at a kind of a re up moment. And I think a lot of business owners have these things.
[00:24:24] They don't talk about them publicly, but they have this re up moment where like, do I really want to keep doing this stuff?
[00:24:29] Shannon: You know, is
[00:24:29] Bryan: this really worth it? And, you know, I just so badly wanted to, we started this together, let's finish it together. And I, you know, she had to go through her own. Season of like deciding and it was just really hard because I was like, Oh, I hope I didn't just screw this all up because it was, it was hard.
[00:24:46] Megan: There's a lot of those moments as a business owner, the, I hope I just didn't screw all this up, you know? I mean, I really liken it to being a parent. You know, so if you are a parent and you think about maybe friends that you [00:25:00] have that don't have children, obviously there's lots of ways you can parent lots of ways you can care take, but there's something very unique about being a parent, like the burden that you feel.
[00:25:09] And similarly to a business, like it's a really long game. There's no easy way to know for sure. Is it working or not in any one moment, you kind of have to look backwards and you kind of have to look for it, you know? And I think that that is a unique burden that. You kind of can only understand if you've done it.
[00:25:26] Michael: It's challenging for sure and there are moments when you have a lot of self doubt and maybe people that aren't owners find that surprising because it does take a lot of confidence and a lot of boldness to start a business. But you almost immediately feel imposter syndrome and feel like, Oh my gosh, when they find out that I don't really know what I'm doing or that I'm making this up as I go, you know, there's going to be a rebellion.
[00:25:49] It's going to be mutiny on the bounty here. But I want to ask you the second part of the question, which is, what do you think owners forget or don't know about what it is [00:26:00] to be an individual contributor or to be an executive on a team? Now, there are some people that go immediately into ownership. You know, they found it.
[00:26:06] A company like Steve Jobs, you know, founded Apple and I don't know that he ever worked for anybody, but I know you guys did and we certainly have. It's easy to forget, you get so myopic on your own problems that you forget what other people that are working with you as your teammates struggle with. Yeah.
[00:26:22] Shannon: It's funny, I can continue with the same story from 2016, right? Like I think a big reason why I felt like I couldn't continue leading is I was just embarrassed. I was embarrassed that we had led this organization in a certain direction and then came to realize that direction was not working and we needed to change.
[00:26:40] And like you said, like how can I expect them to trust me? Let's go this way now. And I thought, I just, I don't know that I can, I can handle that. But what I think ultimately I had to evolve to realize is that's ego, first of all. And second of all, I've never really been equipped to do this, but I have been [00:27:00] equipped as I've gone along.
[00:27:02] And I think individual contributors. Look at organizational shifts like that, like what we had to go through and they really genuinely care about, well, what does this mean for me? Not like what's in it for me. I'm not saying that like in a selfish greedy way, but like, what does this mean for my job day to day?
[00:27:19] Is this going to change how I show up at work? Is our culture changing? Am I still going to want to be with this organization? Like, so when as owners or leaders, we. We make adjustments in the business or take on a new effort. We have to really communicate those changes and those shifts in direction through the eyes of the employees.
[00:27:41] Because what are they going to want to know? What does this change mean for me?
[00:27:46] Bryan: Yeah. That's one of the things we talked about change management and like how you kind of communicate change. You always start with solving the answer for them of like, what's going to impact me or how does this impact me is if you don't answer that, they won't even listen to [00:28:00] your vision for what's next.
[00:28:01] So true.
[00:28:01] Megan: Yeah.
[00:28:02] Bryan: A hundred times over is like, Hey, this is what this means for you and get right after it and then talk big picture, big vision because they need to settle in their hearts and go, Oh. Okay, I'm good. I'm stable.
[00:28:11] Megan: It's kind of like if you don't feel safe as an employee, change can feel scary. And so I think as leaders, part of our job, Brian, to what you said is to just kind of help people settle and know that they're safe.
[00:28:24] Or in some cases we have to make decisions in which people. I'm not going to be on the team anymore. And we need to deal with that honestly as well. Sometimes those are hard conversations, but regardless, not leaving people in limbo is so important because they just have a hard time following you and ultimately aligning to a vision.
[00:28:40] If they don't know that they're going to be okay, or they don't know what's happening to them.
[00:28:43] Michael: You know, I think one of the things I forgot. In leadership was that not everybody loves change. Like I thrive on change. You know, I change my thinking probably daily on stuff. And I'd like to change the organization daily.
[00:28:57] And unfortunately, Megan's very much like me in that regard. [00:29:00] But one of the things we've learned to do, and this happened when we announced the succession plan. For Megan to become the CEO. And we started that conversation by saying, look, we've got some big changes coming, but we're going to start with what's not going to change.
[00:29:14] Because if people don't have a stable platform, they, and to your point, Megan, to feel safe, they really can't even process the change because all they started, they immediately pull in and start thinking about themselves. And again, not in an inappropriate way, but like, what does this mean for me?
[00:29:28] Megan: And
[00:29:28] Michael: if you don't answer that question at the very beginning, they're not going to hear it all.
[00:29:33] Bryan: It's incumbent on us as leaders or business owners to recognize that you're in this position. You're in this title, if you will, for a season in time, which is stewardship. And stewardship is just simply managing something for a season of time. Yep. We've never thought like we'll own these businesses forever.
[00:29:51] So if we're stewarding this for a season at a time, that means that while we're there with our employees and our leaders. We're stewarding our relationships with them. We're [00:30:00] making them the best employees possible. We're helping them achieve results inside the organization for a season of time. And so I don't have to fill this thing of like, I'm going to be here forever.
[00:30:10] I just have to remind myself I'm here for a season of time and I'm going to pour into this employee as best I can right now. Or I'm going to communicate this change the best I can right now because I'm stewarding right now versus just what seems like forever sometimes.
[00:30:24] Shannon: Megan, you brought up safety and I'm, I'm so glad that you did because That is the heart of a lot of fear and uncertainty, you know, am I safe?
[00:30:34] Am I safe to ask questions here? Am I safe to challenge the status quo? I mean, is my voice going to be heard? Is my job safe? Is my team safe? And I think we have to remind ourselves as leaders that once you've made a decision and communicated it, you've thought about it for weeks, maybe months. And you've resolved that this is it, but your team [00:31:00] members are hearing it for the first time.
[00:31:01] And they're going to need time and a safe space to contemplate it, to understand it, to embrace it, to interrogate it and decide if it's something that they are on board for. And we, we have to create that safe space for them to be able to trust us in our leadership through the change.
[00:31:19] Megan: I think that is so hard to remember it.
[00:31:21] I find it personally so frustrating because I'm like, what, this is such a great idea, you know, like, why can't y'all get excited about it? It's like, well, you've had 10 times longer to think about it, Megan. And you got to make the decision and we're just, you know, we're receiving the decision. I think that's been a real growth edge for me to Joel says, show my work, you know, to really explain how I got to the decision.
[00:31:43] Cause by the time it's getting communicated to the team. It's been kind of marinating for a long time and it's packaged and it's packaged and it's all, you know, and so I can forget like people need to go on that journey, albeit, you know, not on the same timeline, but still like they need the benefit of [00:32:00] our thinking, not just the conclusion.
[00:32:02] Especially, you know, for people who are more risk averse. And I think anytime you have less control or power in a situation, which is the case of being an employee, you know, other people are making decisions that intimately affect the daily realities of your life. Then you need to understand in order to feel safe, you kind of need to understand how do we get to this point of making a decision.
[00:32:21] Michael: I got a little taste of my own medicine in this because I was on sabbatical one year. And Megan and the team came up, they decided they're going to rename the company because it was Michael Hayden company and they decided they were going to rename it full focus. And so they, like, they did a whole deck and they,
[00:32:38] Megan: in fairness, I'll just tell part of the story in fairness, the marketing team actually came up with this idea.
[00:32:45] As we were working on some branding updates. So they came up with this idea, they presented it to me and I just got so excited about it. I was like, Oh my gosh, I had no, it's
[00:32:54] Michael: kind of
[00:32:55] Megan: like you guys, you know, where we had several different entities that we needed to figure out how to make more [00:33:00] cohesive from a front facing side of things.
[00:33:02] And one of their solutions was that we need to change the name of the company and kind of bring everything in under one roof. And I'm like, this is a solution we've been looking for. This is brilliant. And. Oh, we're, we're taking my dad's name off the company. I sort of forgot
[00:33:18] Shannon: about it. What better time to do it than when he's out of the office.
[00:33:22] Michael: Well, then what they did was Megan had recorded that meeting. Cause it, well, did you record it on zoom? Some people weren't present.
[00:33:28] Megan: I don't remember, but yeah, we did record it.
[00:33:30] Michael: Yeah. So anyway, so she sends me the video and she says, Hey dad, you might want to watch this and kind of catch up. Like that was literally all the crap.
[00:33:37] Megan: I was very new. Okay. Like I'm just going to say that I was very new.
[00:33:42] Michael: And so I watched it. And I think this is important for business owners to remember about the teams they lead.
[00:33:48] Megan: Yeah.
[00:33:48] Michael: Is I first experienced that as an emotional impact, not an intellectual idea.
[00:33:53] Megan: Yeah.
[00:33:53] Michael: And man, it hit me hard. It was like a gut punch because it was really challenging me [00:34:00] at the level existentially of my identity.
[00:34:02] Megan: Yeah.
[00:34:03] Michael: Yeah. Who am I? What does this mean? And all that. Now, thank God. I only needed about 24 hours to work through it. Then I thought it was brilliant. But it was a tough 24 hours. Yeah. And I think it's just good to remember what it's like to be on the receiving end of this. Yeah.
[00:34:19] Megan: There are stakeholders, always, who.
[00:34:21] Will be impacted. Sometimes that's our customers and our clients. Sometimes, you know, that's certain employees who maybe their title is going to change or they're, they're going to move to a different team, or maybe their positions are going to get eliminated, or maybe they think it could get eliminated or they're going to be promoted.
[00:34:37] Or then sometimes, like in this case, you know, this was not a leading down the org chart. This is a leading up thing. And I just. Failed to think about it at all. I mean, I got so excited about the big picture that I forgot about the most important stakeholder in the whole company, just the founder, he might want to know, and, you know, I should have handled that differently.
[00:34:56] And I think it was a good moment for both of us to just go, [00:35:00] Oh. We don't get to feel this very often. We don't screw it up very often, at least that we know of, but sometimes we screw it up spectacularly, go big or go
[00:35:10] Shannon: home.
[00:35:10] Bryan: One thing that I've discovered now, having gone through the, kind of the whole life cycle of founding with Shannon and then having a majority recap for the business of Belay and then other businesses we're now involved in, there's these stages that we've seen.
[00:35:24] So like when you're, when you're hustling, you're just in the early few months of starting your business up. You can just make decisions. You can just like, yeah, go with this bank and do this. It was just, it's like that. And then, you know, you kind of move into the entrepreneur stage and then the CEO stage and the systems and processes.
[00:35:38] And I feel like that's about the point where I started getting itchy.
[00:35:42] Michael: Yeah.
[00:35:42] Bryan: I naturally will be like, well, why are we doing this? And all my natural response is because I was here first. Right. Or, you know, like just do it and you can't do that anymore. And it's frustrating so that we kind of got to a season like where with belay we knew, This thing has more to go and it's going to be this big [00:36:00] thing.
[00:36:00] But man, to make a decision, it feels like it takes forever to happen. And so recognizing where you are stage wise as the owner of a business is very important in terms of how you communicate change, how you pour into people. And you have to evolve in your understanding of your business organization as well, because I'll admit I did not do a good job at that.
[00:36:19] You know, like I, that was an area of like, why aren't we doing this? Like. I remember one time Trisha called me. She's like, well, we've thought about your, your idea and we think it's a good idea. And we're going to, we're going to start building an implementation plan for it. And I'm like, could you just do it right now?
[00:36:34] Like, I know that's important, but how about like right now? Like, like just hang up and just do that thing. You just can't do that as you're, you're scaling your business.
[00:36:51] Michael: I want to talk about Owner. This is your nonprofit.
[00:36:55] Megan: It's Oh, apostrophe. In R, which I love, which is very, very clever. Yeah. [00:37:00] Very cool.
[00:37:00] Michael: What was it? That was the impetus for that.
[00:37:03] Shannon: You know, we've always loved mentoring. We've been recipients of it throughout our lives, personally and professionally. And over the years have had the opportunity to invest in other business owners, more on a one to four, one to six ratio and.
[00:37:22] I think that's just kind of how our hearts are wired. It's kind of like feeling like, Oh, this is more of the, why we've been successful in business, not some of the things on paper, but like there's an ability to have influence and aspire and inspire people through the story that's been written through us.
[00:37:40] And so as we've entered into this. Season post belay essentially, and Nofo really has from day one, operated without our direct day-to-day involvement. We built that entirely different. We we're looking toward legacy and you know, what do we want the second half of our lives to be filled with? [00:38:00] Do we want to keep creating new businesses?
[00:38:02] No, ma'am. I do not. I think we're good on that. Other than this one that we're currently building, but that's different.
[00:38:08] Michael: We
[00:38:13] Shannon: just can't help ourselves. But I really think that our desire to start Owner is birthed from a heart of mentoring and creating a system and a platform for More people to be impacted by creating safe space, a safe harbor for business owners to talk about feelings of isolation and the financial challenges that are presented with business ownership and the ego that comes along with that.
[00:38:40] What? You want to take my name off the company? Like, who can you talk to about those sorts of things? Friends and family are there and they love you, but there's a an understanding business owner to business owner that can be very difficult. To find, and this isn't a follow this system and you too will grow your business by TEDx.
[00:38:59] This [00:39:00] is a show up as a wholehearted person, as somebody who wants, is very much in line with what you guys are doing, you know, and the work that you're putting out there in the world of like, it's not just about winning at business. It's who are you at home and how do you show up and what does personal development look like and leadership and creating a community to have those types of conversations.
[00:39:20] That's our heart.
[00:39:22] Michael: Was part of this born. Like I can tell you that, that our work at full focus and particularly the double win winning at work and succeeding at life came out of my failure to do that because I was all about work and wasn't paying attention to my life. And there came a moment where that was, you know, brought into sharp relief and I had to make a big change.
[00:39:44] So was there anything like that for you guys where. You realize that there's some other issues that have got to be attended to that it can't be all work. And I think for most of the, my clients and so forth, they will tell me their work is their hobby and they don't have any time for anything else. And hopefully, you know, [00:40:00] their health will work out and their family will work out, but they're all in on the business, but they're not all in on everything else.
[00:40:06] Bryan: Yeah. I think the heart for owner did come out of mentoring personally. I mean, I, I can't, and our gratitude for people, mentors that have poured into us. And the other thing too, like with owner is that we're just showing them our playbook and it's, you know, we're a nonprofit. We've injected plenty of money to get this thing going.
[00:40:24] And we're proud of that because it's. Part of our legacy, but like we're the recipients of great wisdom and we are the recipients of a God given experience that we can share with others and it's our playbook. It's not the playbook on how you do it. And we hope that by just sharing our story through our documentary and through our Our docu series that we're doing, we're just hoping that people will go, Oh, I can identify with that and I don't have to be as lonely and I can really wrestle through like how to get my employees to understand certain things differently and, and how to kind of scale and grow something where our desires to just kind of teach these things and [00:41:00] give them away in a way that.
[00:41:01] Business owners do feel like there's a safe harbor. And the other thing that really, it used to be, you know, when I was a kid, you know, when I was in Missouri, you would go down the street to the hardware store and you would celebrate the business owner that owned the hardware store. They're like, Oh look, there's the hardware store owner.
[00:41:14] Right. And it seems like today there's this different narrative of like business owners are like greedy or their business owners are like, they're out for just themselves. And there's this prevailing sense of like, They're not a pillar of the community anymore, and it breaks my heart to see that. So part of owner is basically giving people that have been isolated through whatever reason, a place to come in and go, man, it's hard out there.
[00:41:40] Is anybody experiencing this? Can anybody else relate and realize you're not alone? And then how do we make this a better environment for us collectively as business owners?
[00:41:47] Megan: So is there an in person community component to this or any kind of community? I obviously said there's a documentary, there's a docuseries.
[00:41:56] What's kind of the follow up to that?
[00:41:57] Shannon: Yeah, there are a couple of virtual events that [00:42:00] we're planning for this year and then an in person event in October that will be at the event center, which is that other business. I mentioned that we're starting. Uh, so yeah, that's our vision right now. I could foresee as this community is established and grows that the possibility of cohorts and some ongoing engagement, but we haven't Mhm.
[00:42:23] Um, and I think that's a really good question because I don't think I've quite gotten that far yet, but I could, if this works, right, and people are interested, I could see there being a lot of value in that continued connection.
[00:42:31] Megan: I love that. You know, we lead two masterminds in our business for business owners, and we just started those last year.
[00:42:38] We've been involved with masterminds for a long time, and we also coach on a limited basis one on one. But the one in particular that I lead just for women business owners. So much of what you're saying resonates with me and was kind of the impetus behind that. And that's just a, you know, it's a small group and has far less reach than what you guys are talking about.
[00:42:59] But what [00:43:00] I found as a female business owner, who's also mom, is that, you know, I go to my kids football games or other things and When I mentioned that I was a business owner, the conversation would just shut down with other moms, you know, because in where we live, most other moms in that context are stay at home moms, which is great, you know, nothing wrong with that at all.
[00:43:23] But it was kind of like, I had to play small in order to not threaten other moms, you know? And then it's like, I can relate to their husbands more than I can relate to them. And that's kind of weird. And like, it's just all weird, you know? And so what I found is that over time I just would be quiet. I just would try to not ever talk about work.
[00:43:40] And that's still somewhat true, you know, in those settings. And I thought, you know, what is really needed for women business owners? But I think this is true for any business owners is, is like you said, Brian, a place where there, you can have a safe Harbor where you can come in and you don't have to pretend to be more than you are and have more answers than you do and kind of be their cheerleader.
[00:43:59] Shannon, like [00:44:00] you said earlier. And you also don't have to play small and pretend that you, you know, what you're doing isn't significant, you know, for fear of threatening other people or being able to talk about financial concerns, good or bad that you're experiencing. And, you know, now I'm almost a year into this group, into both of these groups, we have one that's co ed that we lead, and then we have this one that I have this one that's just for women and the relationships that have formed with those women.
[00:44:26] It's just unbelievable. It is incredible. First of all, how much they resonated with this. So I think you guys are going to be very successful. There's just so much need out there. And then what it has meant for them to be able to share, you know, some HR thing that they're dealing with, you know, some really tricky situation with an employee that they're like.
[00:44:47] Agonizing. And I think that's one of the things that if you're an individual contributor, you might not know about business owners is those personnel things. That is the hardest that in the financial stuff, that's the hardest part of it. And we agonize over that, but [00:45:00] it's amazing what happens when you realize you don't have to do it alone and that other people are like, Oh yeah, me too.
[00:45:05] Yeah. Last week I had to let somebody go, or I found out an employee was doing this, or, you know, I thought I'd hired a great person, but then they got a better opportunity and they went somewhere. And now. Now I'm kind of back to square one, you know, all that sort of stuff. It's, I just think like, there's so much loneliness in our world right now in all kinds of ways.
[00:45:22] And, you know, that's a whole podcast all by itself, but anyway, that in our work, that we have the chance to alleviate that aloneness, I think is so valuable. So I love that you guys are doing this. I wish you all the greatest success with it because it's so needed, so needed.
[00:45:37] Michael: Absolutely.
[00:45:37] Megan: Yeah.
[00:45:38] Michael: Okay. We have kind of three lightning round questions that we always ask, and it's all about the double win.
[00:45:45] Sort of the rules of the game are you've got to pretend you're on the honest planet. And you're only talking to us. There are not thousands of people that will be listening to this. It's just us. So, the first question is, what's your biggest [00:46:00] obstacle in getting the double win? Like right
[00:46:03] Megan: now.
[00:46:03] Michael: Yeah, experiencing, you know, life balance, human flourishing, what's the biggest obstacle right now for you guys?
[00:46:09] Shannon: My palms are sweaty, Mike, like honestly, when I am in a season of stress, I procrastinate. Big time. And I am in a season of stress and I am procrastinating on things. And so I wrote down this morning in my, in my full focus planner that this is not the week for procrastination. This is the week for action.
[00:46:33] So it's me. I'm standing in my own way.
[00:46:37] Bryan: That's awesome. Thank you for being so honest,
[00:46:39] Shannon: Brian. What
[00:46:40] Megan: about you
[00:46:40] Bryan: being, being very mindful of my body and being responsible for that is as important as my walk with God, my relationships with Shannon, our business success. Like, and so I think for me, that's one area that it's easy for me to just go, I'll get to it tomorrow, or I don't have to jump on the treadmill right now.[00:47:00]
[00:47:00] And so just recognizing that it's all got to work together, body and your You know, your relationship with God and your balance and your businesses, like they all got to work together. And I find that I struggle probably with the body element the most.
[00:47:13] Megan: It makes sense. Okay. How do you know when you've personally gotten the double win when you're Winning at work and succeeding at life.
[00:47:22] Shannon: I have been going through some self guided internal family systems work. Oh, cool. I have learned so much about myself and my parts and the importance of distinguishing them and learning from my parts and then the self that kind of encompasses all of that. So I think when I check in with my parts and everybody's good, And nobody's screaming for attention and everybody's been heard.
[00:47:50] Then that's when I know I've gotten the double win, like when I'm checking in with my parts and everybody's good. That's great.
[00:47:55] Bryan: It's equal parts peace and exhaustion. Literally when I go to bed at night [00:48:00] and I feel like I'm at peace, but I, I earned my sleep then I feel like I'm, I'm hitting on all cylinders.
[00:48:06] I don't mean like exhaustion to you're getting sick. I just mean from a day of like good work or a day of serving others. Yeah. Yeah. And so for me. That's what that looks like is peace and I'm ready for bed.
[00:48:19] Michael: I love it. I don't think we've ever gotten that answer
[00:48:21] Megan: No, I like that. It's a very good really cool.
[00:48:23] Michael: Okay, last question. What's one ritual or Routine that helps you get the double win.
[00:48:30] Bryan: It's too soon to say but I'm creating a ritual of the cold plunge I'm jumping into the game and it's interesting, but I do like it and I like the benefits of it for sure, but it's too soon to say, I'd say one thing that has been a consistent part of my life for over two decades is journaling.
[00:48:47] Um, and people go, I don't know how you journal and is it just conscious stream of thought I generally oftentimes will just ask myself a question at the top of my journal. And then just answer the question. And so that's how [00:49:00] I journal is, you know, what am I, what does my mind need to solve today or what am I thinking for, you know, and ask that question and solve for it in the, in the words below a journaling for me has been such a release is such a gift and one day, you know, I can Our kids are going to have these things and they're in the safe and they could just go in there and go, wow, my dad was really messed up.
[00:49:19] Or, you know, he was also, you know, wow, he was, he was human. He
[00:49:23] Shannon: went
[00:49:24] Bryan: through things just like everybody.
[00:49:28] Michael: What about you, Shannon? I
[00:49:29] Shannon: think, you know, I have an ideal work week like a lot of us do and. When I hold to that, I'm double winning all over the place, right? So starting my morning with exercise and journaling and meditation, I feel like after that I could just.
[00:49:44] Tackle the day and, and have success. It's when I have to, I'm going to put that in quotes. Cause do I have to know these are all choices, but when things have to creep into that time because of constraints and time sensitive things that I don't [00:50:00] have the option necessarily of pushing back. If that happens too often, that's when I, I get really cagey and I get really irritable and I'm not a great person to be around.
[00:50:13] So that's where like, you know, I take it upon myself to say, no, I'm the only one that can protect that time and set myself up for success with those rituals that I know are going to make for a better day.
[00:50:24] Michael: That's so good. I'm very similar to that too. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a blast just to reminisce and talk about what you're doing and learn from you.
[00:50:34] So thank you.
[00:50:35] Bryan: Thank you. And you guys are awesome. And we really appreciate the opportunity to share more and just love you guys very much.
[00:50:41] Michael: We love you too. And we'll link to all the resources we've talked about in the show notes.
[00:50:44] Shannon: Appreciate you having us on.
[00:50:56] Michael: Okay, Meg, I've got a lot of takeaways from this, but I'm only going to [00:51:00] share a few. But I think some of the things that stood out for me is this whole idea about not forgetting, if you're a business owner, what it's like to be an employee. And if you're an employee, it's helpful to understand what it's like to be a business owner.
[00:51:13] Because I think a lot of unnecessary conflict and frustration and anxiety happens when we forget these things.
[00:51:20] Megan: Yeah. And I think it's funny. We can get frustrated in both directions. I've certainly had employees frustrated with me. I've certainly been frustrated with employees and, well, yes,
[00:51:32] Michael: that's another
[00:51:32] Megan: story.
[00:51:33] That's another podcast. No, just kidding. But I think that a lot of that comes from our assumptions about the motives of other people, which are usually wrong, you know, and I think employees. Want to feel safe and they want to feel like they have agency and that they're really being considered, you know, and I think that sometimes is inconvenient for business owners and it's not that they don't care exactly.
[00:51:56] It's just that their focus is so big picture. They sort of forget about the [00:52:00] importance of, of really incorporating the team and casting vision down to the individual contributor level and business owners get frustrated because it's kind of like they don't have any peers. They can't talk to anybody about the things that are hard, except maybe their spouse or other business owners.
[00:52:15] And sometimes, you know, we get so busy, we don't stay as connected as we need to. And that was one of my takeaways was just the loneliness of business owners.
[00:52:22] Michael: And I would just say, it's not just business owners having. You know, led a public company where I wasn't the owner, although I own some stock, but I was working for a board of directors that was equally lonely.
[00:52:33] Megan: Yeah,
[00:52:34] Michael: actually no different at all. And I know that we have a lot of people in our audience that they're in some kind of leadership position and it's very easy to think that. You alone are having this problem that nobody else has had this problem when in point of fact, if you get with other leaders, you'll find out that they're very normal.
[00:52:51] Megan: You know, one of the things that I've really learned from my mastermind over the last year, really from both of our masterminds, but I was thinking in particular about the one for [00:53:00] women, um, Is that oftentimes as leaders, and I think that's inclusive of whether you work for someone or you work for yourself, that we think, you know, if we're struggling with a personnel issue, you know, somebody on our team that that must be because we're not good at leadership.
[00:53:16] And it's almost never true. Everybody struggles with it because people are the hardest part of anything, any part of your life. I mean, where does the most pain in your life come from? It's probably people. Where does most joy come from? Probably people. It's just complicated. And it's inherent in the job of leadership, that you're going to have challenges with people.
[00:53:34] And I just keep seeing over and over again, in both of our masterminds, how much people struggle with that. And then that's really like a, a catalyst for self doubt. And I think part of why, whether it's something like owner or mastermind, like we have, or, you know, our coaching program or like. You need to be in something where you can see that other people, you're, you're not actually as unique as you think you are.
[00:53:57] And that is such good news because what [00:54:00] it turns out as you just have normal human problems. So true. And it's okay. You're doing a better job than
[00:54:05] Michael: you think. And I think we didn't get into this specifically, but I think that the way I think about work, I don't care what your work is, whether you're working for somebody or you have people working for you and you're the owner, your work is the arena in which you train.
[00:54:18] That it's all about personal development.
[00:54:19] Megan: Yeah, it's like Jim Kelly, your assistant, has said, and I don't think this is original to him, but he's quoting somebody, he says, this is the curriculum.
[00:54:26] Michael: Yeah.
[00:54:26] Megan: You know, it's like when you're in the middle of something hard, this is the curriculum. It's like, this is making you who you need to be.
[00:54:31] And that kind of helps.
[00:54:33] Michael: And I think it was refreshing to hear that people, even at their level, struggle with saying no.
[00:54:38] Megan: Yeah.
[00:54:39] Michael: Because that's something. I continue to struggle with.
[00:54:41] Megan: Yes. And
[00:54:42] Michael: I think a lot of it is because I'm a recovering people pleaser. I don't like to disappoint people.
[00:54:48] Megan: The
[00:54:48] Michael: missing out part of it, that doesn't really affect me that much.
[00:54:51] But you don't
[00:54:51] Megan: want people to think bad things about you. Yeah,
[00:54:53] Michael: that's right. Or
[00:54:53] Megan: say like, you know, you're just
[00:54:55] Michael: too big for my britches. Yeah.
[00:54:56] Megan: Or whatever.
[00:54:57] Michael: Yeah. So I think anytime we can [00:55:00] get help with that and encouragement with that. Do you feel the guilt? When you say no, or are you without conscience?
[00:55:07] Megan: I am without conscience.
[00:55:08] No, I do. I do feel guilty. I, the, the thing I feel the most guilty about is not necessarily external. I'm not as quite as externally focused as you are in the sense that I'm not out speaking a lot. So I don't get a lot of like people I don't know reaching out to ask for things. What I find difficult is when I have to continue to narrow the boundaries of to be a good steward.
[00:55:34] And that means that I have to not attend meetings that people would like me to be at. Internally, you know, or be involved in things. And it's not that it's bad. I mean, I was, I was actually telling one of our executives, those the other day, it's like The decisions are no longer between bad and good. Like that's easy.
[00:55:51] Michael: That's easy.
[00:55:52] Megan: It's good and great. And it's like the stewardship question of, is this truly the highest and best use of my time? Not just a good use of [00:56:00] time. Cause the answer to, is it a good use of time? Unless you're just like wasting time. The answer is probably yes. But that's not a good enough question.
[00:56:07] And that's, I think that's hard, you know, when you know that you could add value there, like it would be beneficial to the people that you're with. It's just that it's going to come at the expense of the most important
[00:56:17] Michael: thing. That's right. It's hard for people on the other side, sometimes understand because first of all.
[00:56:22] Every request viewed by itself in isolation from the rest of your life is reasonable.
[00:56:28] Megan: Yeah.
[00:56:29] Michael: Right? They're just asking for a few minutes or a half an hour or for an hour.
[00:56:33] Megan: Right.
[00:56:33] Michael: But if you're not careful, you die the death of a thousand cuts because all these no's add up.
[00:56:39] Megan: Yes.
[00:56:39] Michael: And, you know, I've looked at my calendar like you probably have.
[00:56:41] Or all the
[00:56:42] Megan: yeses. Yes.
[00:56:43] Michael: All those yeses. Are there, and I'm like, why is my calendar so full?
[00:56:48] Megan: Because you said yes, one yes at a time.
[00:56:50] Michael: That's exactly right.
[00:56:51] Megan: Oof, yeah.
[00:56:52] Michael: And so I'm, I'm trying to do better, but it's hard. And it was encouraging to hear that they still struggle with this.
[00:56:58] Megan: Right.
[00:56:59] Michael: But they also have some [00:57:00] solutions around
[00:57:00] Megan: it,
[00:57:01] Michael: too.
[00:57:01] They're being brave. And that's what I think it takes a lot of is courage.
[00:57:04] Megan: Yeah, I think that's, unfortunately, it always comes back to that.
[00:57:08] Michael: Well guys, we hope you enjoyed this episode of The Double Win. Do us a favor, rate the program, write a short review. It won't take but a few minutes, but it'll help us get this message out of winning at work and succeeding at life.
[00:57:21] Thanks for joining us.