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Hosted by Terrance Ruth, this podcast decodes the language, decisions and hidden areas of local power that often seems illogical to residents. Our goal is to empower people to engage locally and to understand how significant it is to be aware and active at the local level. Once local government is logical, it will become meaningful and provide the benefits that allows for people to live a thriving life.
LORENA: people were still digesting the idea that
we might have a housing crisis. And I'm running
around like Chicken Little saying, we are fully
in a housing crisis, we're on the verge of a homelessness
crisis. And I swear people thought that that was
a crazy conversation to have.
MAGGIE: On any given day, you do see someone on
city council or someone working for the bank downtown
sitting next to someone who's experiencing homelessness.
TERRANCE: You're listening to Illogical by True.
This podcast decodes the language, decisions,
and hidden areas of local power that often seems
illogical to residents. The goal of this podcast
is to empower people to engage locally and to
understand how significant it is to be aware and
active. At the local level. Once local government
is logical, it will become meaningful and provide
the benefits that allow for people to live a thriving
life. Hello, I'm Tarrant Roof and today on Illogical
by Truth, we have two amazing human beings, two
people I care about deeply. We have Maggie Kane,
who is the executive director, CEO, I'm not sure
which title it is, of A Place at the Table. And
for those of you who know a Pay What You Can Cafe,
Maggie has one of the largest in the country.
And she has committed her life to making sure
that everyone has a place at the table. And so
located in downtown Raleigh, Maggie came with
us today to really wrestle with the role of nonprofit,
a personal story of leading and guiding in this
way. And then we also have with us Lorena McDowell.
Lorena McDowell is director of the largest county
and North Carolina affordable housing efforts.
And she wears many hats within that title. And
we'll explore that as we go through. But she was
the first human being that I met that was able
to cast a five to 10 year vision on how to be
aggressive on affordable housing. Not just locally,
but she shared how that local vision could impact
both the region, the state and the country. So
with that, we have two amazing human beings that
will help us understand and sort of wrestle with
the ideas of homelessness and affordable housing.
And so today, welcome Lorena, welcome Maggie.
I'm glad you're here.
LORENA: Thank you, happy to be here.
MAGGIE: We think you are equally as amazing, Caris.
Absolutely.
TERRANCE: Alright, so Maggie and Lorena, you both
have blazed trails in the areas of helping and
advocating for those who are without. As sort
of your story, your brand. Without food or without
homes, your journey has influenced your local
government, your local communities. How did you
get to this point where those without has become
your personal career story? Lorena, we'll start
with you.
LORENA: Oh, that's easy, because I'm a person
with lived experience. I experienced housing insecurity
and instability when I was a youth. I spent most
of my high school time in group home shelters
on friends' couches and got to really experience
kind of the other side of the world, right? The
other side of this. And I remember, and I can
tell you the night, laying on the cot that I was
on at HomeAway, when I decided people should not
live like this. And I'm gonna grow up and I'm
gonna fix it all, right? Now, obviously, I was
a 15-year-old dreaming at that time, but I figured
out a way to come back to this work and make what
I think is the greatest impact that I can do on
the folks that I feel are akin to me and really
want to serve.
TERRANCE: And I can see that in the way you engage
human beings, not just in your office, but you're
probably the most present. County staff member
that I've ever seen in my life. But you're actually
in the community that you want to be, and that
brings me to Maggie. Maggie is present everywhere.
And so Maggie, how did you get to that point,
to that store?
MAGGIE: Oh, I don't know about everywhere, that's
a lot of pressure. Just really fortunate to be
at this point. As someone who grew up privileged
and advantaged, or with advantage, I grew up volunteering.
My mom had us volunteering in a lot of different
places, and I, at a young age, started to notice
the disparities in equities, the system, and the
divide between people. And started to just really
notice that, open my eyes. Started to get to know
people and be in relationship with people who
were different than me, people who were experiencing
poverty, experiencing homelessness, and started
to see that we, in our town, in this town I grew
up in, and at the time was proud to live in, I
wasn't proud to live in anymore. And we needed
a place where everyone could come together, where
some of those divides started to come down a bit.
TERRANCE: You know what's fascinating about both
of you? You have become the face of homelessness
and housing. So when people think about that,
they normally, they normally think about it. So
most individuals try to distance themselves from
those two categories. And y'all like lean into
that space. And I think it's fascinating because
you do it with passion. It comes off extremely
authentic. What encourages you or forces you to
do that, to be in a space where multiple people
run from or not want to be associated with? Homelessness,
hunger, housing. How do y'all feel confident leaning
into that space when people who are volunteering
at your cafe may not be as comfortable? People
who have homes and don't have to think about housing
wouldn't be as comfortable. How are you so comfortable?
How are you so comfortable in these spaces where
most people are not?
MAGGIE: Sure. How are we so comfortable? We have
to be. We have to do it. Our world will not survive
if we don't. Especially sitting in my shoes as
a white privileged woman, we have to be the ones
that do that. We have to lean in. You know, you
set a really high bar for both of us to say we're
the faces.
LORENA: Really high bar.
MAGGIE: So we are leaning all the way in and we
are not stopping because we have a lot of work
to do here in our area. And the answer is we just
have to.
LORENA: Yeah, it has to get done. I mean, I think,
you know, for me, it's a calling, you know, it
started from me experiencing that. But beyond
that, I think it's just always been a calling.
Anytime that I've leaned into this work, I felt
fulfilled. I see the efforts on the ground. I
can see that my efforts are helping folks who
feel akin to me, right? Like these are my folks,
these are my people. And so it's really important
to me, even just for like my mental health to
do this work. I can't imagine doing anything else
with my life than trying to help people have the
thing that I think we all should have, if nothing
else, a roof over our head. I mean, it's the most
basic human right, right? Food to eat.
MAGGIE: Yep, yep.
TERRANCE: And I want to give a caveat, or at least
I want to put an asterisk here. They would never
put themselves on the face of anything. These
are very humble individuals. But if you go, they're
located in Wake County and in Raleigh, which is
in North Carolina. So they're in one of the fastest
growing regions of the country. They are in one
of the fastest growing tech hubs in the country.
And so you're gonna see several... Quality of
life indexes or indicators that say that this
is one of the best places to live. And you have
two of the individuals that are living and spending
their time on the inverse of that conversation.
And so most people would rather be at the top
of the charts on best place to live, fastest growing
city, whatever those may be. They choose to be
on the other side of. On homelessness, hunger,
and being unhoused. And so I humbly would just
say that they wouldn't accept those titles to
be in the face of those two categories in their
city. But it's evident if you ask any human being
around her.
LORENA: And what you brought up actually is kind
of why our work is so necessary because we're
growing so fast. Right, like Wake is the second
fastest growing county in the entire nation, right?
And it just continues to speed up. We are a desirable
place, we are a tech hub. We bring these high
earning jobs here, which puts more pressure on
our market, right? In terms of cost, we have a
lower vacancy rate in Wake County than the nation.
And the nation has a housing stock crisis. We
have an affordability crisis, yes, but we have
a stock crisis, full stop. All the way up to $3
million houses in our community, we don't have
enough of those for the current demand. All the
way up to 3 million. And so you can only imagine
what that means for those who just want to start
their home. They almost don't even exist anymore.
And a part of that is because we're so desirable.
It pushes people out of our market. It pushes
people to the edges and the fringes. It pushes
them out of their homes. It makes them now need
places like Maggie. Because if they can get a
meal from you, they can maybe pay some of their
rent or for a room to keep over their head. So
what you're talking about is kind of what drives
the need for this kind of work. I think it's beautiful
for communities to be desirable and grow, but
it should be intentional, sustainable, smart growth.
MAGGIE: And if we're going to say we're top leading
city, we're top leading place to live, it needs
to mean that that's for everyone and not just
one group of people.
TERRANCE: Absolutely. And that you mentioned housing,
most individuals think they know about housing
and homelessness. Especially in their community.
So Lorena, what would you say is surprisingly
unknown by most people when it comes to housing?
LORENA: That's a good question. So I think that
we often lean on the old narrative that most people
who are homeless are homeless because they have
mental health issues, because they have substance
abuse issues. That exists, but the number one
growing demographic that we have here is first
time homelessness. It's people who were able to
afford their homes before, but the cost of housing
has outpaced the increase in income. The need
for stock because of our growth has outpaced the
amount of stock that we're creating. The supports
that people need if they end up on the verge,
on the edge, don't exist. So we have a system
and a stock that has failed our residents. So
I know there's a lot of conversation on behavior
health and mental health support Saturday and
those are necessary and it's growing across the
nation. We need those things. But the reality
is we also just have your regular old average
resident who used to be able to afford to live
in a community who's priced out now and just can't
afford to live here anymore. I think most people
are really surprised here that most of us are
a few paychecks away from housing and stability
as well.
TERRANCE: And what would you say is the reason
for people being so confident about what they
perceive to understand around housing?
LORENA: I think because people stick to what's
most visible to them, right? And they don't really
dig under the surface. And I've only been in this
community for five years. And I recall, well,
you remember when I first got here, we were talking
about housing and security and people were still
digesting the idea that we might have a housing
crisis. And I'm running around like Chicken Little
saying we are fully in a housing crisis, we're
on the verge of a homelessness crisis. And I swear
people thought that that was a crazy conversation
to have at the time. But when you've worked in
other cities and seen, you know, as I have kind
of the progression of communities like this, you
know what's coming. And I think a lot of people
just weren't ready for that conversation. But
like I often say, you know, and our county manager
often says the same thing as well as Wake is not
a small town anymore. It's not a small town. We
have big city, big town, big county problems.
And we're still talking about solutions that work
for small little communities.
TERRANCE: Now before we, I have a question for
Maggie that's connected to the increase in homelessness,
but can you help us understand the difference
between a housing crisis and a homeless crisis?
Can you help us understand those two?
LORENA: I mean, they're connected. They are forever
connected. But so we have a housing stock crisis.
So when we talk about needing stock, we are talking
about we should have a stock of units in our community
that are affordable to people at whatever level
the need is, whatever their income is. And here
in Wake County, we don't have any stock that is
affordable to anybody at any income. We don't
have enough of it all the way to $3 million homes.
So when I say we have a stock problem, I mean,
we have a stock problem. And then when you start
looking at incomes, we actually have over 60,000
people in Wake County who are spending more than
30% of their income just keeping a roof over their
head. And when you are spending that much of your
income or more, and the majority of them are spending
more than 50% of their income, which means they're
what we call extremely cost burdened, that means
that you are on the verge of losing that. It's
not stable. And a lot of them are falling into
homelessness as a result of that. Or they're making
other choices that they wouldn't normally have
to make. Their children aren't going to the schools
they want them to. They're not eating the healthy
meals that they should be eating because they're
just trying to keep a roof over their head. So
that's the housing crisis that we have. And the
homelessness crisis is a direct result of not
having the stock and not having the supports that
our community needs.
TERRANCE: Now Maggie, you have created, again,
this is me. How I see Maggie. Maggie is a very
humble person, so this is my perception. So I
just want to start.
MAGGIE: I'm rolling my eyes right now.
TERRANCE: So Maggie, you have created a local
restaurant that has become the doorway to the
city of Raleigh. And when I say doorway, that's
a place that you can go. In the snapshot. See
all of the city. In that restaurant. And it's
probably one of the only spaces in the city where
you can see a CEO eating alongside an unhoused
person. In your restaurant called A Place at the
Table, how did you create a local space? Where
those who are normally hidden in cities become
your target audience.
MAGGIE: Yeah. Thanks for that question. And I
do to on the last question you just asked, I just
want to throw in here there that yesterday we
were together and we heard the stat that David
said. What was it? One million people a year ago
and now it's one point two years ago.
LORENA: Yeah, we're at one point two and we're
trending at twenty twenty five. I think it is
to be at one point five. Right.
MAGGIE: Yeah. So you think about that. And it's
just that extreme growth really quickly, which
will lead to all these things that you were you
were saying. And we've seen that at a place to
table, surely. But let me back up a little bit
and just say what a place to table is to give
some context is we are a normal restaurant. We
look and feel like a normal restaurant. When you
when you walk in, it looks and feels like a normal
restaurant. You smell good food. You see fun photos
on the wall. You see friendly faces. And that's
when you get up to the register, you start to
see some suggested pricing. So people can choose
to pay that price. They can pay more and pay it
forward. They can pay less. They can pay by volunteering.
They can pay using a place card that gets handed
out to a lot of different organizations in the
triangle. And in different partnerships that we
have. And so we are a pay what you can restaurant
where, as Taryn said, it's the city's doorstep.
We say all are welcome. Community and good food
for all, regardless of means. So we use good food
as a tool towards creating community and providing
a place really where all are welcome and all can
come in there. So on any given day, you do see
someone on city council or someone working for
the bank downtown sitting next to someone who's
experiencing homelessness or someone who's bringing
their kids in and can only afford a couple of
the meals out of the five or six people they bring,
right? So it really is a place that has brought
this culture of inclusivity and hospitality and
dignity and I just feel lucky to be a part of
it. But a couple years ago, you know, to your
earlier point about how cost of living has increased
and it's becoming a place where people can't live
anymore. And we want to be a place where everyone
can thrive. When, before we opened, we committed
to taking care of our team and making sure that
our team, could thrive and live and succeed and
live successful lives. And so we said we'd always
pay a living wage. And five years ago when we
opened, that living wage in Wake County was $15
an hour. And it wasn't even really the living
wage. It was the suggested living wage. And it
was $15 an hour. And you fast forward right now,
we're sitting at $19 an hour. And I think about
that, we still can't live on $19 an hour. So,
and that's for a single person without children.
Exactly. So, we at A Place To Table are always
gonna try to do better and better day by day,
as often and best as we can. But we said if we
can do all these things for our staff and take
care of our team, who's gonna take care of the
city's doorstep, everyone walking in the door,
if we do that for a year, we've done the right
thing. So, I don't even remember your earlier
question.
TERRANCE: No, I mean, you touched it well. We're
just trying to figure out how did you create that
doorway? Like, how do you create that mosaic picture
of all different faces of people enjoying one
space?
MAGGIE: You know, you make people feel welcome.
You make people feel a part of it. You create
opportunities for people to be a part of it. And
for me, it's not me. You listen to other people
who know more than you. I came in with no expertise
on anything. I came in with a team of people that
had expertise in the nonprofit space and the restaurant
space and the legal space. I truly don't take
credit for any of this because I had none of this
expertise. And I think that the way good things
happen, the way places like this happen is when
the community comes together and you make people
feel a part of it. So we started working on this
in 2014. We opened in 2018 and we had all these
folks that had joined in into this cafe, community
cafe movement. We opened our doors and that has
only continued. Being in the restaurant, as I
said, we've got the pay what you can model, but
you walk in, first and foremost, there is always
a door greeter. And that door greeter is making
sure you feel welcome, you feel loved, you feel
a part of it to that earlier point. And so you
feel like you're a part of this thing and you
are welcome and you understand the mission because
it can be scary to walk into a place that there
are prices on the menu, even if they're suggested.
And so that door greeter is number one. But then
number two and more importantly is our staff.
The staff that we said we're gonna continue to
take care of, they make people feel loved every
day. I'm not in there every day, they are. They're
doing the hard work, they're showing up. They
are loving people, they're knowing their stories.
They are then connecting to the resources they
need. That they may not find in other places.
And so I think this is a long answer, winded answer
to your question, but it's like you hire really
good people, you make people feel a part of it.
Those people you hire make people feel a part
of it and you do the best you can and treat people
the way they should be treated.
TERRANCE: You know, it's one thing to talk about
the exchange between dollars and meals. What's
fascinating about your restaurant is when people
have to volunteer. Now, even at the volunteer
level, you have very well-off, they could just
give you money and go about their day. They come
into the restaurant, they watch dishes, they sweep
the floor, they hug people who are unhoused and
housed, and they don't have to leave their living
room. They can just send you a lot of money and
just. So you have even mastered the idea of merging
class at the volunteer space. And usually people
volunteer along class levels. So they're all gonna
volunteer at one place that's nice and clean and
neat, or they're gonna volunteer here because
it has, in the crevices of certain places. How
did you mix that volunteer pool to where it's
almost every class is represented in your restaurant
at the volunteer? They're not getting a penny.
It's coming to give their time.
MAGGIE: As many dishes as I do, they might hope
they're getting a penny. No, I think, so as a
place table works, I said those different ways
to pay, but there are folks that, to Terrence's
point, that sign up to volunteer. There are folks
that have a weekly shift with us, and there are
folks that just show up anytime and volunteer.
And everyone has access to a meal. We don't ask
questions, but I think we just create a space.
And we have a mission where people feel a part
of it. And we've got folks that make connections
between people, but I also think that food is
a tool to bringing people together, just like
volunteering is a tool to bringing people together.
And so when you're doing dishes next to someone
that you don't know, those barriers and walls
start to break down. And so just like when you're
sitting next to someone and sharing a meal, so
I think we just created a space where people can
do that. And I think what you don't know, you
don't know. And then when you do know, you know
you gotta change it, and you know you gotta be
a part of it. And so I think that us just opening
our doors has allowed people to see that, hey,
I actually could talk to someone who may be different
than me. I actually could be in spaces that people
who are different than me, and I want to be. So
I think we just created the space. The community
has built it.
TERRANCE: Now, Lorena, you're leading the housing
efforts in Wake County. How do you help people
or someone understand the current state of housing
and potential strategies to address that? Because
it's the talk of the nation. And so how do we
help us understand? Because Maggie will see volume
increase based on housing. She will see volunteer
trends based on housing. Even staffing patterns
are based on housing. And so how do we help? Can
you help us understand that picture to some degree?
LORENA: I think what you're touching on is that
housing is kind of a part of everything.
TERRANCE: That's good.
LORENA: And I think people look at housing and
they, especially having, being a housing expert,
people ask me, well, what's the answer? Just give
me the silver bullet. Just what's the easiest
way to fix it? And that doesn't exist, right?
It is tied to soulmate, it's tied to income in
your community, as Maggie said. Thank you for
paying a livable wage. Because if you had not,
that's just more that I've got to figure out.
And so I often talk about housing, I love what
I do. It is my life's passion, 100%. But creating
affordable units and focusing on affordability
is only one side of it. If we don't figure out
how to make income start keeping pace with costs
here, we're going to be creating ourselves forever
and forever. We're going to be trying to figure
out ways to create more units. But for us, we
have to come at it from many different angles.
And so in our department, which a lot of folks
probably don't know, most counties don't have
housing departments. So we're a little unique.
It's a new thing that in a lot of places in the
country are starting to do it. But Wake was really
at the cutting kind of edge of this. Our commissioners
a number of years ago realized that, okay, there's
this affordability issue, they thought, at the
time, right? It was happening around our community.
This little issue, this little thing. And, you
know, but thankfully, they started to kind of
wake up and realize something was going on. They
commissioned a study. The study said, yeah, you
are short a lot of stock. You need something.
This affordability plan was created. Then they
had this plan and no stat, you know, who's going
to do it, right? Because there wasn't a housing
department. And so our commissioners commissioned
a new housing department to be risen. And so I,
you know, they did a national search for a director
and that's how y'all got stuck with me. So I've
been here for-
MAGGIE: Oh my God.
LORENA: You're so sweet. We've been here for five
years building the department and staffing it.
But as we've done that, we really had to take
into account that housing affordability is a spectrum,
right? And so we kind of touch all the pieces
along it. All the way from, we run the largest
men's shelter in North Carolina at Salamonty Street
Center, right? We fund all the shelters because
they need money to do the work they do. We have
hundreds of vouchers for permanent part of housing.
And we've done thousands of units for affordable
housing development because we've got to develop
new units. We're preserving thousands of units
wherever we can. It's kind of, you got to be all
over the spectrum of it, right? Like you've got
to be all across it because there's no one silver
bullet. So for us in terms of increasing units,
that's been our main focus right now. We have
incentivized over 3,500 new or preserved units
to be built or preserved. A lot of communities
talk about, well, just build new units. That's
great, but when you're as desirable as we are,
developers are buying up those currently existing
affordable housing. We call it NOAA, naturally
occurring affordable housing. You can't build
your way out of that. You have to also save that
and preserve that. And when you do that, you have
to save and preserve communities as well. People
who want to stay in communities, they were born
in and raised in and from, but if we don't help
preserve that, they'll be priced out of. So we're
working on that. Yes, we want to be a part of
new development too. So new development. Then
there's landlord engagement, talking to landlords
and education and helping them understand the
benefits of working with our folks. You don't
have to be afraid to work with our folks who've
experienced homelessness or who might have a voucher.
In fact, there's benefits to it. COVID did a lot
of things. That were horrible. One of the things
that I think it did that helped us was it helped
a lot of people realize a couple of things. One,
a lot of people were on the verge and didn't think
they were. Right, because their financial investors
told them, just save six months of all your bills
and you'll be fine. But what happens when it's
two years later and you're still out of work?
Right, we had a lot of people who would consider
them, we call them NIMBY or not in my backyard.
We don't want your shelter or affordable housing
in our community. A lot of them just needed education
on who those people were because they found themselves
calling for programs during COVID as well. So
that's really important. And then I think also
what it helped people to realize is that healthy
communities thrive when we are looking at serving
everyone, at all income levels, whatever their
needs are, behavioral health, mental health, whatever.
Because if you don't, you start to see, your community
doesn't look and feel the same anymore anyways.
So saying that in my backyard doesn't really help
when you start to see 10 cities pop up because
we haven't been helping the least of us. So it
kind of started to expose, I think, a lot of that
and helped us to kind of, it blurred the line
between the us and them. And I think that's really
helpful for our community so we can move forward
together as one community.
TERRANCE: Now, I heard you mention sort of landlord
engagement. You're pretty much in community at
all times. And so are you, Maggie. And I wanna
talk about the merging of your worlds together.
So Maggie, you have literally changed how people
see nonprofit communities. So when they walk into
your restaurant, there's a social worker. That
social worker is engaging people around homelessness,
mental health, it's making the environment friendly.
There's so many layers to that, I've never seen
a restaurant where there was a social worker inside.
When you hire, everyone that's an employee comes
from different class backgrounds. So you have
everyone from a chef who's well trained to a chef
that learned and came to the ring. So with all
of these different nuances to nonprofits that
you're creating for that target audience of the
under house. How are you? Help us understand.
What should be the future of nonprofits as it's
trying to brace for this crisis that is, what
trends should we expect to hope for in that space?
MAGGIE: Yeah, we definitely have to hope for it
and we definitely have to lean all in, as you
said earlier. I think nonprofits have to work
together. I think we had a place to have been
so fortunate over the years to work and collaborate
with tons of different organizations in the triangle
that are doing really great work. And we found
that we are better, I'm so cliche to say, but
we're better together. We are better when we work
together, we are better when we collaborate together,
we're better when we're able to connect all the
dots rather than being on isolated playing fields,
right? Isolated islands. There is enough money
to go around, so let's share that. Let's connect
each other to different grants that make sense
for a different organization than ours. Let's
connect funders to different organizations that
make more sense. But we have to work together.
So I think that's one, collaboration. I think
we have to listen to what the community really
needs. When we got started as A Place, A Table,
a big reason, I didn't mention earlier, but a
big reason Table even happened and how we created
this hospitable place is because we listened to
the community and what the community really needed.
Sure, we use expertise from the community and
different people, but we really asked folks that
are coming into A Place, A Table every day and
would be coming into A Place, A Table every day,
what do you want this cafe to be? And so I think
we have to listen to our neighbors that are in
our community. What do you want this community
to be? What do you need from our nonprofits? And
we have to be open to changing. And I hate to
say it, pivoting. I hate that word. I really try
hard not to use that word, but it's so true. We
have to be open to changing and growing and evolving
with what's needed because, Lerane, as you said
earlier, that COVID taught us a lot. It's changed
all of our orgs. It's changed all of our businesses.
It's changed our whole county, all of this. So
we have to be open to that change and what the
community really needs for us moving forward.
And I think we, as nonprofits, frankly, we gotta
be better. We gotta pay better. We gotta treat
our employees better. We gotta, and this is no
aside, but there's no hate on other nonprofits,
but there's that nonprofit myth out there. Everyone's
heard, I don't wanna work for a nonprofit because
they don't pay. So we, as nonprofit leaders, have
to pay. We have to treat our employees well. We
have to do things like benefits and sabbatical
policies and really care for our team. You already
heard me harp on it for 30 seconds to probably
three minutes, but we have to do that and we have
to be better.
TERRANCE: Well, for individuals that get a chance
to go into your cafe.
MAGGIE: Our cafe.
TERRANCE: Our cafe. Our cafe. There's several
things that you see. First, when you walk up to
the door, there's someone that's already there
to say hello. They're not saying just hello to
me, but they're saying hello to the unhoused,
but they're saying their name. They know that
human being. So you don't need a home to be known
or seen, so that's visible right at the door before
you get there. Everyone is given the tour. This
is how you order. Everyone. If you have a backpack
with all your items that you own in that backpack,
or you come with a briefcase, you're given a brief
on how to order, or be in this space. Then when
you get to the cash register, you look at the
menu, you see what you like, you get to the cash
register. There's no pressure at the point of
ordering. And usually when you have to register,
there's a moment of, do I have enough money? That
question is there, do I have enough money? Even
if you have enough money, for some reason, the
question is, but you have allowed for your process
to minimize the weight of that moment. And so
you have customers that are routine customers
that don't even have a home that they go to, but
you are a stop in their week. So you do a good
job at not just... Giving good food and hiring
good people. But your process is deliberate and
it creates dignity for everybody in that space.
And when I hear you, Lorraine, talk about housing,
you're talking just as aggressively about that
$3 million home as you are about the $100,000
home. And you're like, we need all of them. And
so you've both been just as deliberate in making
sure that dignity was present at all levels. And
I just. I appreciate that you lean and you are
present as human beings in that space because
some of the transactions are. Visual.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
TERRANCE: People can see when Lorraine, when you're
presenting, that this is something that means
something. People can tell, Maggie, when you're
going around and you're hugging people at the
tables and you're going around and your staff
is smiling and they're remembering names. I even
remember a young lady that would bring her child
and they would come and it was, this was their
lunchtime, their family lunchtime. So I just appreciate
the presence that you have in your spaces and
that you bring all of you and not just a transaction.
The transaction that I see is that I could be
you and you could be me. And there's no different
between the two. And have been. Yes.
LORENA: Some of us, yeah.
TERRANCE: Yes. And have been, yeah. So with all
the work that we talked about and the conversation
that we walked through, there's still some listeners
that don't feel empowered to lean into this space.
Lorraine, what advice would you give to that listener
that Maggie will follow you? What advice would
you give to that listener who's at home in their
living room, they just, they care about housing
or they're experiencing homelessness. What advice
do you get them to feel empowered to activate
and be present in this?
LORENA: I think just lean into your passion and
just start. Just start somewhere. Talk to someone,
start. I mean, and this is one of my favorite
things about where I am right now. It's great
to be successful just in general, but it's really
great when you know that you can be that, you
can be the person who that little girl on that
cot, like I used to be, can hear my story and
know that she could sit in this chair. Right,
because I didn't know that at that time. I just
wanted to do something. I didn't have anyone to
look to that was another little black girl who
wanted to fix a problem for the world or the,
I mean, I want the world, but I got a community
right now. I want to fix it for everybody, but
I got the community. I didn't have that example.
So the really cool part, I think about, big part
about what I do that I think is really cool is
I get to be that example. But the reality, so
when you said, I could be you, you could be me,
that goes both ways. Like I have been and they
can be. That's good. Right? And so, I mean, you
just got to start. If it's something that you're
really interested in and you're passionate about,
just start. There are good people who will be
willing. You got to, you started a whole restaurant
by just talking to the community and then finding
people who are smart in different respects of
what you would need to start the business and
boom, look what you're doing. I lead very much
in the same space. I firmly believe in finding
people smarter than me and getting out of their
way. Like my job is to do overall strategy and
get the political will to do the good things for
the community, get them the resources and get
out of their way.
MAGGIE: So find somebody who's really smart,
LORENA: who knows the stuff that you want to learn
and just sit down and talk to them and listen.
There are a lot of great agencies in our community
doing really cool stuff. And most executive directors
like Maggie will be happy to talk to almost anyone.
So I think just reach out.
TERRANCE: I'm just gonna make it, I mean.
MAGGIE: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, she nailed it.
I got nothing. No, I always have something. No,
I think also on top of all that is get uncomfortable.
Like put yourself in uncomfortable spaces. Put
yourself in spaces with people who are different
than you and learn and educate yourself and show
up. I think what you said just start, right? Like
also show up. Show up to meetings that you need
to be at or and listen, but then use your voice
when you see fit. But yeah, get uncomfortable
and just be present. And I think if you need something
really easy and tangible, it's start volunteering
at an organization. Like show up in an organization
that you're passionate about and just start to
your point.
TERRANCE: Now this final question is how can they
find Lorena?
LORENA: Oh, let me give you your phone number.
TERRANCE: My number is...
LORENA: I'm so easy to find. You can literally
Google a name, you know. But my email is l-o-r-e-n-a
dot m-c-d-o-w-e-l-l at wake.gov. You can email
me. I reach out to everybody. I respond. You can
Google me. You can get my email, my Wake County
cell phone. Most people do. Call me and email
me. But most of the folks who work for Wake County
are really, really accessible. So you just need
to reach out. Yeah.
MAGGIE: Can't even imagine how many calls you
get a day.
LORENA: Oh my gosh.
MAGGIE: Yes, yeah, come see us. You know, come
give us feedback. Come chat with us, come meet
with us. I am, yes, you can find us online at
tablerally.org. You can visit us on social media
if you're on social media. Chat GPT if you're
on chat GPT. But Maggie at tablerally.org. Again,
all that's online though, but would love for people
to come to Raleigh and meet with us.
TERRANCE: That was awesome. And again, thank you,
Lorena and Maggie, for being here. It's a pleasure.
Please look up these individuals. They are doing
some amazing things, not just in Raleigh, but
Maggie just held. Play What You Can Cafe Conference
here. And Lorraine has won many awards for the
work that she's doing. My teens. Her teens.
LORENA: We are we.
TERRANCE: So again, please Google Maggie and Lorena
and follow their work. Even though they have accomplished
so much, they have a vision for five years out
for what they're going to do. And so again, I
wanted to thank you so much for taking the time
to hang with us today, sharing your thoughts and
knowledge and opinions on the matters that are
local and empower people to really take control
of their local spaces. Again, this was edited
and produced by Air Fluence, and thank you for
joining us on Illogical by Truth. Thank you.