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Practical conversations to help you grow in your relationship with Jesus Christ.
TDP - HB Response
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[00:00:00] Hey everyone, Ayren here. Welcome to Season 2, Episode 2 of the True Discipleship Podcast. Last week, Harrison Butker, the kicker for the Kansas City Chiefs, went viral for his commencement speech that he delivered at Benedictine College in Atchison, Kansas. Since then, he has received both backlash and praise for what he said, but which response is the right one?
In today's episode, we discuss what Harrison Butker said, the response it received online, which is What the Bible has to say in response to his remarks and how we as people of faith should consider our message in light of the world we live in. Thanks for joining us and welcome to the show.
Welcome to the True Discipleship podcast, where we have practical conversations on what it means to be a passionate follower of Jesus. We are so thankful you chose to listen today and hope you gain a fresh perspective. With Jesus at the center, this is a community where everyone is given a seat at the table, a place to dive into scripture, talk, think, explore, and learn what following.
Christ is all about now onto our hosts, [00:01:00] Ayren and Morgan Nelson.
Hello everybody. And welcome in to episode two of season two of the true discipleship podcast. We are your host. My name is Ayren and I'm Morgan. I don't know, that was, I'm Ayren! That was the way it came out. I don't know if that's what we're You know what's funny? We re recorded this intro like three times and this is the one that's gonna stick.
That's what I love about it. Okay! So good. Hey, we're gonna go ahead and get rolling right into things here. First of all, we don't want to go too far without saying thank you so much for all the support we've received over episode one. We're so excited to be back with you guys. It's been a pleasure and it's just fun, Morgan, sitting in a room and talking with you.
It is. I love you. Oh, I love you too. I know that episode was long, , but I'd, I'd tell a lot of people we had a lot of time to make up for. Yeah. And once we got rolling, it was just easy to keep talking. That's it. And considering Joe Rogan goes like three hours, I don't feel too bad about going, what, an hour [00:02:00] fifteen, I think is what we hit.
And you know, if you get tired of listening to us, you can turn it off. But don't. You shouldn't do that because it's. It's this is good stuff. At least I think it is. Um, well, here's also something you should do if you enjoy the show, , and you want to see it stick around a little bit longer, man, go ahead and share it with some friends.
If you have time, be sure to rate it both on Spotify and on Apple podcast. , and, , if you wouldn't mind, go ahead and leave us an honest five star review. , you can say whatever you want in the comment, but if you just leave the five stars, you're That's, that's what an honest five star review is. It's five stars because we want people to check out the show, but also Ayren's voice sounds kind of funny sometimes.
It doesn't matter because we got the five stars, so, so leave an honest five star review and, uh, it really goes a long way in helping this reach other people. And, uh, hopefully this has been a blessing to you, and, , we, uh, Our prayers consistently that it would be a blessing to other people as well. So with that, let's go ahead and get started with our topic today.
I'm willing to bet there's probably some people who clicked on this, who have never heard our show before, but they [00:03:00] saw the title and thought, yeah, I get down with that. Maybe I want to see what these people have to say. Uh, over a week ago, Harrison Butker, who is the kicker for the Kansas city chiefs.
He gave a commencement speech at a Catholic college in Atchison, Kansas. It's a Benedictine college. And, He said some things that have since been taken out of context on the internet. Yeah, that never happens, right? , so What we're going to do is we want to take some time just to kind of share, , our perspective and our thoughts.
But most importantly, we want to take a look at some of the things he said, and just look at them through a biblical lens. And so let's start here. Well, first of all, let me say this. If you're here and you were looking for someone who is going to Affirm your idea to buy a Harrison Bucker jersey or affirm your idea to cancel him.
This isn't going to be either one of those the purpose of this is just to have an open and honest conversation. We're not here to bash anyone. We're not here to pick a fight with [00:04:00] anybody or to pick a side on anything This is just us giving a bit of an honest evaluation So let's just go ahead and start here morgan.
What was your knee jerk reaction to hearing? You Some of the clips and sound bites and the speech that Harrison Buckner gave my first reaction, which it's a interesting thing because my algorithm did not. Bring any of this to my attention. So your first reaction was Exactly
He's not the one dating Taylor Swift, yeah, no, that's so yeah, I know who Travis Kelsey is But just like to point like put that there. Um Yeah, had no idea he was a football player, , had never heard of him before, , and my algorithm had not brought his speech to my attention or any of the backlash that he's getting from the [00:05:00] TikTokers.
, the first time I heard about this speech was when you said, Hey, do you want to do an episode about this? And I was like, Not really, I'm not one for having contentious conversations. I don't like confrontation. That's not my natural inclination. Well, good for you. That's not what we're doing here.
Yeah, but it is really hard to, uh, Record something, the two of us, or, you know, even give a speech at a commencement and have it put on the internet for people to just absolutely pick apart. , so it's really tough, I mean, for us to sit here and have a conversation and say these are the things, well you said we're not going to say this is what we agree with and this is what we disagree with.
It's more about we want to have a conversation, starter, where people are challenged to think Biblically and critically about the things that they hear. Yes. That's great. So initial [00:06:00] reaction. Who is this guy? Yeah. What's going on? Um, which is probably actually a good thing to get into briefly. In case people don't understand what's going on, but yeah, so he gives this commencement speech and there were some things in there that were considered, uh, really anti women.
It's probably the predominant thing that came out of this was the biggest takeaway that people had from it. The biggest response has been going out on social media is about the role of women in the family, in the workplace, really in our nation. If you want to look at it from that perspective. And so there were just some of these things which will play some of those soundbites throughout the episode as well.
So you can hear it. We don't want to take anything out of context. I mean, by design, we will because we're only playing clips, but. We want you to hear exactly what he said and the parts that we're focusing on for the sake of this conversation. And so, yeah, there's just been a ton of backlash. Uh, as you know, some people have canceled him and said, we don't want to have anything to do with him.
Other people have made his jersey the number one selling jersey in the NFL right now. So it's a very polarizing thing. [00:07:00] Um, conversation that happened as the internet does, as the internet polarizes things. So, yeah, we're going to take a look at what does the Bible have to say about this? We're going to, um, hopefully give a biblical response to some of these things.
But I do think it's important to go through the rules as well of what it is that we're going to be talking about. So rule number one, we are not here to attack Harrison Butker as a person. That is not the goal. The idea here is to look at just some of the ideas that he gave because it's the ideas that have made their way onto the Internet.
And then this is where it gets toxic. It's when people go, this person thinks this thing. Well, then that person is garbage. And it's like, no, that's not it. This is a belief they have, and if they're a human, then they go through the process of learning and unlearning and, you know, being shaped and molded by conversation over time and stuff like that.
That's the reason why we have a platform like this. , we're also not here to attack Catholicism. And I say this one's gonna be a little bit harder, not because we're dying to attack Catholicism. That's not it. It's harder because, , [00:08:00] he's speaking to a Catholic audience about topics concerning Catholics.
So it's gonna be. relatively tricky and a little bit of a fine line to walk to make sure we're not attacking Catholicism, but we recognize he holds a set of beliefs as different from our own. So what we're doing is we're looking at the topics he brings up through the worldview and the framework of a Protestant worldview, reading the Bible, which Morgan, you actually mentioned something earlier about how important that is recognizing who he's talking to, in the role that it plays in this conversation.
You want to go into that a little bit? Yeah, I mean one of the things that we'll probably list as a practical application is just first when you're taking in any sort of Content is this intended for me? Mm hmm. I mean he was giving a speech at a graduation neither of us are graduating from college and I really I didn't really need a commencement speech the other day when you sent me That YouTube, you know, it's funny ever since then Catholic college commencement speeches have been [00:09:00] popping up on my algorithm like all the time.
Because you told the internet that you care about commencement speeches. I watched it a little too long, I guess. Um, so yeah, like when, when you see something, it's like, was this even intended for me? We've had conversations before where like soundbites get posted on the internet and pastors are getting like ripped, like just torn a new, torn a new one, ripped a new one.
What? Torn a new one. We're talking about buttholes either way, but whether you tear it or rip it, that's, that's the, that's the part that matters. Are you, I'm leaving it in, let's leave it in. Okay. Pastors are just like getting a lot of grief. For things that they're saying in sermons that are intended for their church and their context and that may not be the thing that you need to hear right then like it was never intended for you.
So [00:10:00] I have a tendency to just say that isn't for me. I didn't need. I'm not graduating from college. I'm not Catholic. I didn't need that. Harrison Bucker's commencement speech. And if you had never sent it to me, I wouldn't be sitting here right now, having this conversation, which is real, right? I mean, that's the reason why there's so much like internet drama is a choice to take part in getting angry about things that someone in, in, I can't remember the actress in Kansas, if there's anybody from Atchison, thank you for listening.
But like, I didn't even know it was a city until last week. And I'm now we find ourselves having a conversation about something that happened there. Genuinely doesn't apply to us. And this is not me saying that we don't need to care about our faith and our beliefs. Like we do, we carry a certain set of beliefs and we need to care about those things.
I'm saying, why do I, why do I need to care about this? And I think for the [00:11:00] applicability part, it's if you do come into contact with things that were never intended for you, let's make sure we're just taking it in. And thinking critically and biblically about it. So step number one don't listen to it if you don't need it And if that's the point of conviction for you right now to be like, you know What this really like I came here looking for something Something, uh, I don't know what you, what's the word, um, To have beef with?
Yeah, like if I came in looking for toxicity or for an argument or debate, like, maybe right now the conviction of the Holy Spirit is telling you, hey, you just don't need to listen to this because it's not going to serve you any good. But if you do decide to listen, here's the reason why we decided to have this conversation, despite what Morgan just said.
Because we believe that so much of discipleship is evaluating what would Jesus say about this. And so I think that in our culture, our polarizing culture, it's so easy to say, I have to pick a side. I'm going to pick a side when we don't stop to think long enough. Yeah. But what does Jesus think about this thing that everybody seems to be up in arms with?
so before you pick a side, pick up your Bible. [00:12:00] That's what we're going to do here in just a minute. Was that any Okay So one other thing that we want to mention here is that we aren't going to address everything that was said in this nearly 30 minute speech We're not gonna do that What we are gonna do is we're just gonna hop on the topics that seem to be the most polarizing At least from us, just kind of those initial things that were said that stood out as some of the more important things.
And so there's three areas that we want to talk about. The first is tone. The second is the view of leadership and authority. And the third is the comments that were given about women. , we put that one at the end [00:13:00] because we want you to stick around. Not really. That's just actually the way that things flowed in, in his speech.
So number one, we're talking about tone, the idea of what's more important, what you say, what you do. Or how you say it. Morgan, what are your just initial thoughts about this? And I'm going to pull up some scripture to go along with, uh, what the Bible has to say about this. Yeah. I mean, you did a really good job when you sent this to me and didn't give me any sort of inclination as to whether you were for or against, so I really didn't have any sort of.
Sort of, like, predisposition in my mind of, Oh, I need to find everything I disagree with or I need to find everything I agree with. But initially, , as soon as I started listening to it, I was just like, man, I don't I like the way this sounds, not from the content, but from the way it was delivered.
Again, it was a commencement speech, and I, I like that [00:14:00] there were values that were important to this group of people incorporated into the speech. I think that's really important. I don't want my commencement speech Speech should just be start a new chapter and the like walkways of life and turn this page in your book of life.
Like I don't need a bunch of cliches in a commencement speech. I'm glad that there was some grit, some like actual, this is what we believe in. This is how you guys should go live it out and go live it out. But I think it should be that. Hey. Hey. These are the things, go, go and live it out, like this encouragement and it felt like he was coming from a place of, and that's tough, like even saying that, it felt like he was coming from a place, we don't know that, we don't know what his motivations were in giving that speech, but it felt really,
I don't even have an adjective to describe it, like he sounded, he kind of sounded angry. A little bit. Yeah. I think, uh, unpolished is a fair word to use. I don't know if it gets to the heart of the emotion that [00:15:00] you're trying to address, but I think unpolished really is the, the reality of it. Let me go ahead and read this and then we'll, we'll talk a little bit more about that.
But this is Galatians 6, 1. , it says brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the spirit should restore that person gently.
Really what I want to hone in on there is the idea where he says that you who live by the spirit should restore that person gently. And I think that what the speech, and I think one of the things that people were most abrasive towards was it didn't have a gentle tone and I'm not going to say it had a harsh or angry tone.
Maybe you felt like it did, but I think it was unpolished. I think one of the things about good communication is recognizing that so much more of it is body language than what you say. So again, the, the, what you say versus how you say it. I think, uh, he probably has, there's probably a good part of his stuff that was received well in the room because of the background of people that were in the room came.
So he even opens up the speech and I'll even drop the [00:16:00] spot in here in just a second. But he talks about how he had conversation with the dean of the school prior to him showing up here. So there's already some level of relationship there. there. There's already some level of we have we haven't share similar belief there.
So maybe he knew I can say this in an unpolished way in this room and it would be received with some level of grace. But he didn't think about how [00:17:00] is some girl in her room in, I don't know, Ventura, California, only picking on it because I used to live there. Ventura going to see this when they just see a sound bite on Tiktok, right?
So That's our fault, right? Again, like you mentioned earlier, we aren't college students at this college. So there's just some things that I do think get lost because of the lack of relationship, but like you have to, I think as Christians, as people of faith, we have to understand that our message sounds intolerant to so many because of how it's delivered.
And I think that's something that Catholics and Protestants both have in common. Our message is naturally offensive to the world because it says you're a sinner who needs a savior, but there's a way to share that in a way that is gentle and Restore someone versus it feels like I'm pointing a finger at you and I'm attacking you and so I think the Bible is clear It's really clear on the ideas of how do you [00:18:00] share something with someone or how do you treat them when they're acting out of pocket or whatever, right?
I don't know I I think I was just gonna say like I don't know if i'm just more sensitive than the average person to tone and delivery.
I don't, I think as my like non confrontational self, I don't like when something comes across abrasive. That was a great adjective. That was like one that I was looking for. And it was like, I don't want anyone to think it's like abrasive in the fact that like, I don't want someone to speak truth into my life.
I want truth, but there's a way to deliver that. I mean, everything you just said, , and I want to also acknowledge the fact that you could be so gentle and so humble and so kind and all the fruit of the spirit in delivering the message of, Hey, you're a sinner and you need a savior. [00:19:00] People will still have a negative reaction.
Yeah, there's still the potential that they because it is such a countercultural idea for sure so that When I am saying I I don't take abrasive or aggressive styles of communication I'm not saying that we as believers can't communicate truth that we shouldn't communicate truth. That's really huge I'm glad you made that clarification.
We should but there is You There is a, a heart posture behind the way we communicate those things. So I mean, just look at, I mean, Paul, for example, right? Paul writes a ton of correction and gives a ton of command in all of his letters, but there's always a relationship there in some way. You know, there's always some previous relationship being built upon, which again, maybe Harrison Bucker had with his audience.
So again, we can't, we can't, but from the outside looking in, we just have to recognize the dynamic of that relationship. Again, it goes back to. [00:20:00] We aren't graduating from this college. That message wasn't for us. So to be offended by his tone, it wasn't meant for me. And like you said, he has the context of the relationship with them that he can deliver in that fashion.
The next point that we want to address is a view of leadership and authority. Um, what happens when the church talks negatively about leadership? And so right here, I am going to go ahead and drop in a clip of the speech, so that you can hear what was said in. Why this is kind of an overarching theme of what needs to be addressed.
So there's some stuff in there that.
Like we're not gonna get into because he does talk about abortion and you know, some of these other things, which again, there's a Catholic perspective on these things that we're not going to talk about at some point. We may do an episode where we talk about those topics. But again, from a protestant perspective, this is not a saying.
We're afraid to talk about those things. It's just we're recognizing the context which they were given in Looking at that again. We're just trying to look at the overall 30, 000 ft view of what was said and how it was said. So I think the biggest thing that stands out to me here is regardless of what he is calling leadership out on, which in this case, it's the president.
He says that Biden is Catholic. Um, Which would make [00:23:00] them brothers in Christ. That's just an idea. Catholics and Protestants, you know, both believe that, that people who share their faith, that we are all a part of one family, um, or that they are a part of one family. Again, we, there's nuances that we don't have time to get into.
Um, but I want to look back at that same passage that we just read, Galatians six. It says, brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in sin, you who live by the spirit should report, restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you may be tempted, carry each other's burdens, and in this way, you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Um, I just think in that, man, and this is something that I think we have to be careful of, and it's the reason why I said we're not going to attack Harrison Butker in this episode, because, so remind you, this is not an attack towards him, this is talking about this idea, talking about people when they're not in the room, is not a christ like thing to do.
That's just a reality. So, was this the best place or forum to voice grievances with government? [00:24:00] Again, recognizing that some of it's going to be taken out of context, recognizing that it's probably going to be heard by more than just the people in the room, , even if it is just in the people in the room, If you're the person on stage giving a commencement speech, there's some level of authority and responsibility and importance that has been placed on you.
So the next things that come out of your mouth whenever you have a platform is going to be viewed with an extra level of weight to it. I think as followers of Jesus, we have to be careful in the way that we talk about leadership. Whether that's in our churches, whether that's, politically, your boss at work, like, wherever they are, I think it's very important for us to be cautious in the way that we talk about our leadership.
Do you have any thoughts about this? I mean, I just have been constantly reminded of, like, Imago Dei and, like, the image of God and that every single person, no matter how villainized they have become in culture, [00:25:00] Bears the image of God and I mean you you take that and then you partner that with like This is a fellow brother or sister in in the faith.
And then yeah, how how do we? Like how do we get to the point where we're like, yeah, it's okay to talk Negatively about this person. Yeah, I think there's just a couple of biblical principles is here as well here I mean Matthew 18 talks about what to do when you have a dispute with someone you go to that person one on one if that doesn't Work, you get the church involved, you know, you get mediators stuff like that And I mean, I just think that's a lost art in our culture This is kind of spiraling off a little bit, but a few weeks ago.
There was a issue with Mark Driscoll He was at a men's conference and I don't know. Do you know this story? I There's like a million, I'm willing to bet a million dollars You're not gonna guess the next thing that comes out of my mouth if you don't know this The men's conference started with a male stripper on a pole Your face tells me you had no idea where that was going [00:26:00] starts with it he wasn't stripping he was doing like You know how they're like pole dancing is a sport?
Yes. Yeah, it was like that's the type vibe they were going for. Well, Mark Driscoll comes out on stage and he starts rebuking the leaders of this conference. And he's like, Why did you do this? You should have done this. Which is like, I think this was like the next day after the opening thing of this. And so he was a scheduled speaker and so before he got into his message, He's like, I rebuke this place.
He starts like praying against them on stage, like a whole thing. And the pastor's in the front row and he's like, Mark, that's enough. And so he goes, all right, fine. And he takes his stuff and he walks off stage and that's it for his segment. So then the other pastor comes up on stage and he's like, no, let me tell you why I told Mark that was enough.
And I think the guy started getting booed while he was on stage or whatever. He's like, me and Mark were hanging out for an hour and a half earlier and he never told me anything. But then he comes up here on this stage and it starts bashing me for my decision to have this thing to open up the conference.
What I [00:27:00] love in respect is what happened next. Say what you will about Mark Driscoll, say what you will about this conference he was at, but the guy who was leading the conference went out and found Mark Driscoll, I believe in the parking lot or somewhere backstage or whatever. And they both came on stage with stools and had a conversation about, Hey, this is the issue that I had with what you said.
This is the issue I had with what you did. And they squashed it right there. And I'm like, that was. A prime example. Of how Christians are supposed to lead stuff. Yes, there was something that was done poorly there. Driscoll shouldn't have Like if he had an opportunity to tell him something one on one, why wait until you get on stage to start bashing this guy?
Right? So I agree with what the pastor said, or the, you know, whoever was running the conference said there, but then to see them come together and say, all right, you know what? I was wrong. You were wrong. Let's sit down together as people, as men, let's talk through this. I just think that's such a lost art.
And as we, as we find ourselves in a election year, I just think this is something that the church needs to [00:28:00] remember. Like, it's so easy to fling mud, it's so easy to attack people, um, even kind of the driving principle of this conversation that we're having right now, like, we don't want to be known for what we're against, we want to be known for what we're for.
And so just saying, this person does that wrong, this person does that wrong, I don't like this about them, whatever. There's nothing productive in that. And so I think that it's a responsibility of, man, if you have the opportunity to talk to someone one on one, do that. If not, don't take a public forum to try to start bashing them.
So I feel like this is applicable in like a, a relationship where I have access to you. Um, I don't know that I could call the president on the phone and say, Hey, I have an issue that we need to take up. , so in this attack of leadership, where we don't have access to them to be able to squash whatever, , Beef is between us.
, I think we also have another, [00:29:00] responsibility as Jesus followers, a command from scripture, , in Romans 13, and the heading is Respect for Authority. So, Romans 13, Everyone must submit to governing authorities, for all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.
So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right and they will honor you.
The authorities are God's servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God's servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.
Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. Amen. They [00:30:00] are serving God in what they do. Morgan's a government worker for anybody who doesn't know. Give to everyone what you owe them. Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them. And give respect and honor to those who are in authority.
We need a whole nother episode devoted to that passage because I mean even reading that man, that's tough There are a lot of people in leadership that I don't want to honor and respect and how do we? Live in submission to authority that doesn't feel like it's appointed by God and it feels that way for us But who this is being written to?
Like, Nero is on the run right now. Not on the run, but he's like actually murdering Christians for their faith. The Roman authority at the time of Paul writing this was lighting Christians on fire to give light to his dinner parties. Like [00:31:00] making human candles out of them. That is the type of authority that Paul is, he's writing to those Christians saying, Respect your authority because they're from God.
Okay. I, I take back all of my complaints about respecting our authority. Um, because we're not being lit on fire. But how do we respect authority when we're I mean, Harrison, to bring us back to this conversation, like to the basis of this conversation, Harrison opens his speech with a lot of issues that he has, that he says political leadership is threatening the beliefs that we as Catholics hold.
And we as Protestants could also say There are people in leadership who are threatening our things that we hold as important to us. You can disagree with leadership and still honor them. You can oppose leadership and still honor them. [00:32:00] My mind immediately goes to Acts chapter five, , Peter and the apostles get thrown in jail for being out on the street and preaching the gospel and they get arrested and they get flogged.
And when they were like, Hey, don't do this anymore. They took a position of saying, Hey, listen, I'll do respect to you. We like God is our ultimate authority. And so they went back out and they started preaching. They didn't go out and say, Hey, let's overthrow the government. They didn't say, hey, let's go out and, I don't know, Storm the Capitol.
I was gonna say it, and I was like, I don't know if I should say it because of the look you gave me. And then you were like, nah, I got it. Yeah, let's storm the Capitol. Like, that wasn't their response. Their response was, we're going to keep being obedient to Jesus. It might get us arrested and beaten again, but we're not going to rebel.
In the like violent sense against the government. We're not even going to talk [00:33:00] badly about the government. And we're still going to pay our taxes. We're still going to pay our taxes, but we have to show our allegiance to God over anything else. So man, I just look at all the issues that get raised of like, I don't know, man.
I mean, again, this isn't like to be a political statement, but I can't bring this up without like where like back during COVID when it was like, Hey, everybody needs to wear a mask. Like Okay, I may not agree with it, I may not like it, but like, is it dishonoring to God to wear a mask? No. So this probably isn't the fight worth picking.
Like, there's, you know what I mean? Like, there's so many things to be genuinely upset about, and some of them just aren't worth it, because none of them are attacking my relationship with God. And so what do we see? We saw people trying to spin that conversation into, well, God didn't give us a spirit of fear, so I'm not going to wear a mask.
No one said that! Where are you getting that from? So, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to get ranty, but like, you know what I mean? It's just saying, pick your [00:34:00] battles, and unless your relationship with God is at stake. Honor your authority, but still in your honor, I think one of the things that's so huge about that Romans passage and about what we see even in the way the apostles live their lives is the way they honored their authorities wasn't an act of rebellion towards God.
It wasn't disobedience towards God. It actually was an act of worship towards God choosing to honor horrible authority. Is an act of worship towards God. Now we can move on. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm glad that you manage all the social media and our email account and can read It's fine. And can read.
I'm glad you can read. I'm glad you can read. You can screen all the nasty grams and only send the nice things to me. Yeah, okay, okay, alright, next, next subject. We gotta talk about the women thing, right?
Cause I feel like that's the biggest thing that people got really up in arms about. It was his statement towards women, so I'm gonna go ahead and play that clip right here, [00:35:00] so that everybody can hear exactly what was said, um, in, in, before you make an opinion, um, just listen. Haha.
All right. So that's the bit that has been probably the most controversial and really the one that got him into issues here. The chargers, the Los Angeles chargers, every year they do like a schedule reveal, And they do it in different, like, really creative ways. This year they decided to use The Sims as their example of this.
And they released it, I think the schedule came out like the day after this speech had gone public. And they changed it to where when it showed that they played the Chiefs, They like created Harrison [00:38:00] Bucker in the Sims washing dishes in the kitchen. It's like their way of trying to poke fun at him for this because this has been taken as a attack on women's rights, , their role in the world, who they are supposed to be and all that sort of stuff.
So before we get into this, and there really is an anchor text that we're going to go down to the same when we looked at last week Ephesians to talk about this a little bit. What were your, initial thoughts towards His statements in that last clip.
I think My gut reaction, which my gut is always, like, my initial reaction is always more shaped by culture than by even my own beliefs sometimes. I'm like, yeah, we should be mad about that. And then I was like, wait, no, like as a wife with, like, a child on the way, I am I know that the biggest influence I can have on this world is by raising a child who [00:39:00] believes in Jesus, and that will be, I think, one of my greatest accomplishments.
Again, back to the tone and the delivery. I think that's where the issue comes up. Nobody wants to listen to a man tell a woman like you should just go out and have children. And, um, my, Initial, I think the first thing I said to you was a girl who just spent like multi thousands of dollars on an education for a degree that she can go use to get a job does not want to hear like, Oh, yeah, that's great.
But hey, go have some babies. Like, I just made a really large investment in an education that I'd like to put to good use. , so don't tell me that the, don't tell me that the only thing I'm good for is that, but I don't think he says the only thing you're good for. I think, cause [00:40:00] he says, you know, you're, you're going to go on to have great careers.
And yeah, I feel like I, as a woman have had a, great career and will continue to have a great career. , I can do both though. And when he talks about his wife, not achieving her dream of having a business, it sounds like she had to give that up. She had to sacrifice like living her like businesswoman dreams to be able to have children for Harrison.
And it's like, no, she probably just had a heart change. And, and decided, like, you know, I, I'm not going to put in the energy to this business because hello, owning a business sounds like a lot of work. I wouldn't know. I've never owned one. , so in that situation, it might not, it just wasn't feasible for a both and of, I'm going to own a business and raise children.
Yeah. So there's a couple of things in there and again, the reason why I'm sharing these is because. I want to get to the biblical port point of this. [00:41:00] So what he did and what he did not say, he did not say, uh, women are only valuable if they are. Mothers and wives. That's not what he said. What he did say was, is despite the success you may have in the career field, in the business sector, whatever, the thing that's probably going to matter most to you at the end of the day is, were you a good wife and were you a good mother, here's where I think it gets a little off the rails.
He opens up by saying, he says, these are the lies that have been heavily Geared towards women that you need to go out have this great career yada yada all this stuff I would argue that's more of the lie That's being told to men and so he took that same lens that I think applies to both groups But because he chose a single out women I think that's why a lot of people got upset the reality is is everything that he said is About women being wives and mothers is just [00:42:00] as true about me being a husband and a father that for me It is I can achieve whatever success in the world that I want to achieve But the at the end of the day I think the thing that Jesus cares deeply about is was I a true and faithful follower to him?
Was I a true and faithful husband to you? And was I a true and faithful father to our children? That at the end of the day is ultimately what the deepest concern about and so Yeah, so there's that that's what he didn't say what he did say that kind of rubs me the wrong way And I think this is really the part that a lot of people got upset about was he was like, oh my wife He says her life truly started when she began, you know when she was a mother and I know I'm taking that I I'm slightly paraphrasing but we have the clip in there for a reason but I know for a fact he does use the words her life truly began when and That's something that I I mean, I know you talked about the Imago Dei earlier Like, women are made in the image of God and have a purpose.[00:43:00]
that doesn't change. There's an intrinsic value that women have and you're not thrust into significance when you get married. Again, same thing applies to men. Men aren't only valuable to society. If they start a family, uh, who you are as a follower of Jesus. I mean, even Paul himself writes and he admits, he says, I write this in my own hand.
But, uh, Paul admits he's like, man, for some of y'all it's better that you don't get married because in that , you'll actually be able to be fully devoted to Christ. And I think that this is something that the reason why we can talk about this, not as a Catholic issue, but as even as a Protestant issue is I do think the church as a whole has a big issue of.
Oh my gosh, what Preston Sprinkle calls it, we have an anemic theology of singleness, meaning we just don't talk about what it means to be single and Christian. We don't, , or where you fit into God's plan as a single person. And so because of that, I do think that we tell people implicitly all the time, um, yeah, when you get married, well, then you're really a part of the [00:44:00] family or whatever, however you want to say that.
I want to go to scripture here and it's like I said, it's the same scripture that we looked at last week and I just want to revisit it. This is Ephesians chapter five. , and this is where Paul is laying out how spirit guided relationships are supposed to look between wives and husbands. It says, starting in Ephesians 5, 21 further submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Stop right there. Submit to one another.
There is an equal responsibility on husbands to submit to wives and vice versa. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. But then he does explain what does that reverence look like in each relationship. For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church.
He is the savior of his body, the church. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything. Amen. And then he talks to the husbands in the same breath, in the same vein. There's [00:45:00] no breaking up of ideas here for husbands. This means referring to what is submit to one another out of reference to Christ.
Uh, this means love your wives just as Christ loved the church, which I alluded to last week, I think is just such a high call. It's such a high responsibility to love your wife the way that Christ loves the church. And he explains that he gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean washed by the cleansing of God's word.
He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without. Fault. In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself, no one hates his own body, but feeds and cares for it.
Just as Christ cares for the church and we are members of his body, as the scripture say, a man leaves his father and his mother and is joined to his wife and the two united in one. This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. So again, I say each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
That is what Paul calls people [00:46:00] to. So there is an allegiance. There is a faithfulness. There is a, uh, covenant that's made between a husband and a wife. Nowhere in there does Paul say husband or wife, you are only valuable for the relationship that you have with one another, but it's actually a partnership.
Uh, I think one of the ideas that gets lost a lot in scriptures, you know, when God creates a helper for Adam, the beginning of time, people think, Oh, a helper is like in the West. Help is only what weak people need, or, you know, it's a sign of weakness. It's the lack of individuality, whatever. The same word that's used for helper in the old Testament is the same word that's used for the Holy Spirit.
So unless you want to negate the power of the Holy Spirit and lessen the role of the Holy Spirit, let me ask you women and the Holy Spirit, both having the term helper to describe them. Does that lower the role of the Holy Spirit or does it amplify the role of women in the lives of people? [00:47:00] Society, I would argue that it amplifies the role of women that it says, no, this is not just someone who's there to help you accomplish your goals.
Uh, instead she's someone there to point you towards Jesus and actually help you become the type of person that you were designed to be. And I think that's a lofty goal. That sounds a lot more, um, fulfilling than even just being a mom or a wife. And I don't say just as like, it's light work. It is a, that is also a very lofty goal, but do you have anything else to add to that?
No, I think that gives us a lot to think about. Alright, well I wanted to make sure you had the final say. It feels weird to be like, What do you think as a woman? And then me be like, Oh, here's what I think. And then we're going to end on that note. Well, you told us what Jesus thinks, so. Well, alright. Yeah, that feels like a good place to go.
[00:48:00] So as we get ready to wrap this up, what do you hope people take away from this conversation? Cause we, I don't think we really solved anything as much as we just kind of thought out loud and approach scripture about these things. But what do you hope are some of, maybe some of those intangible takeaways or just, you know, how is this beneficial to someone who's listening?
I hope that people take from this episode not our, like, hot takes or we agree or disagree with this or pick out what you want to agree or disagree with, but seeing the mo or hearing the model of [00:49:00] Here's something that's popular in culture right now that people are dissecting. How do I, as a follower of Jesus, dissect this thing well?
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that is ultimately the hope. It's a model for learning and thinking and, you know, I said it at the top of the, of the conversation and I'll say it again here. The goal is not to be a be all end all. This is a conversation that's meant to be a conversation starter for you.
Something to get your brain. Rolling within processing. And so maybe you even take the same skills that hopefully you learned during this conversation and you apply it to this conversation, you hear, you learn how to critically think and hold things in light of scripture and think, man, like you can disagree with us and that's okay.
That's totally fine. Like I said, if you want to reach out to us and let us know and respectfully and gently want to do that, then yeah, let's have a conversation about it. That's not like an abrasive come at me sort of thing. It's a, no, we all grow when we lean into relationship with one another. And so that's really what this whole thing is.
So on that note, Morgan, thank you for joining [00:50:00] me again for another, uh, edition of the show. If you would like to share your thoughts, comments or just about how you feel, what you think. Uh, you know, about what we're doing here. Um, maybe you have specific thoughts that were jarred while listening to this conversation.
Feel free to continue the conversation by messaging us either on Instagram at true discipleship podcast, or you can email us at true discipleship , at gmail. com. Uh, we love you guys and we hope this has been helpful for you. , be sure to leave those honest five star reviews. We love to see them and, uh, share this with someone else.
If it's been helpful for you until next time, my name is Ayren and I'm Morgan. And we will see you next week. [00:51:00]