Feminism NOW

Episode Description: The theme of this season is “women uplifting women.” One issue that women often face is poverty. This episode, NOW National President Christian F. Nunes speaks with Leslie K. Gill, the President and CEO of Rung for Women, about why investing in women doesn’t just uplift those women, but their communities too.

Links: 
Economic Justice | National Organization for Women 

Guest: Leslie K. Gill is President of Rung for Women, a nonprofit organization in St. Louis that helps women climb the economic opportunity ladder so they can live equitable and abundant lives. 

Recognized for her leadership and work empowering women, Leslie was awarded the Titan 100 Award recognizing top CEOs and executives in 2024, listed in St. Louis Magazine’s 50+ People Working Toward Solutions in St. Louis (2023), and named St. Louis Business Journal’s Most Influential Businesswomen (2022). In 2024, she gave the Commencement Address at Maryville University.

Take Action NOW: Learn more about Native American Heritage Month here, and the challenges that Native American women in particular face in this country. 

Listen to new episodes of Feminism NOW released every other Wednesday. To find out more about the National Organization for Women, visit our website.

Socials:
Rung for Women: 

Creators & Guests

Host
Christian Nunes
BB
Producer
Bethany Brookshire
IB
Editor
Ismael Balderas-Wong
LG
Guest
Leslie K. Gill
SC
Producer
Susanna Cassisa

What is Feminism NOW?

Passionate about modern feminist issues? Want to learn more about how today's political, academic, and cultural leaders strive for a future of universal equality and justice?

Join NOW President Christian F. Nunes in a new podcast dedicated to intersectional feminist discussions in American society with leaders in entertainment, sports, politics, and science. From conversations on constitutional equality, to economic justice and reproductive rights, listeners will find new ways to learn, engage, and get empowered.

Listen for new episodes released every other Wednesday.

Bethany Brookshire (00:06):
Hello everyone and welcome to Feminism NOW, the podcast from the National Organization for Women. I'm senior producer Bethany Brookshire. One of the top issues cited for women's organizations is the gender pay gap. Women earn only 85% of what men do. Pay equity can come about in a variety of ways, but one way is helping women attain their career goals and better manage their own finances. Today, NOW's National President Christian F. Nunes speaks with Leslie K. Gill, the president and CEO of Rung for Women about how investing in women's careers can uplift everyone. And while we're here, we would love to hear your thoughts. Did anyone help you invest in your career? Contact us at feminismNOW@NOW.org. And now, let's get to the interview.
Christian F. Nunes (00:59):
Hello everyone. I'm Christian F. Nunes, the National President of the National Organization for Women. And we are here this season to uplift women. And one place we need uplifting is in our careers. So that's why we're so happy today to be here with Leslie K. Gill, the president and CEO of Rung for Women, an organization dedicated to accelerating women's careers. Leslie, thank you so much for joining us on Feminism NOW.
Leslie K. Gill (01:30):
Happy to be here.
Christian F. Nunes (01:32):
Let's get started. I'm curious if you can just start off by telling us and telling our listeners what exactly is Rung for Women?
Leslie K. Gill (01:41):
Sure. So Rung for Women is a career accelerator. Really, we are inspired to help all women climb the economic opportunity ladder. And so we do that by providing training and access to opportunity for women to move into careers where women have historically been underrepresented, manufacturing, technology, geospatial jobs where historically, we would consider to be men's work, we are now really focused on the training and accessibility to those career pathways and helping women connect into good jobs.
Christian F. Nunes (02:22):
That is amazing. And how long has Rung for Women been around for?
Leslie K. Gill (02:26):
Rung for Women actually started as a resale clothing boutique. And our founder at the time was a member of a very important and prominent family here in St. Louis. And there had not been a man born in their family in several generations, and so they had all of these professional clothes and our founder was like, "There has to be a way for us to regenerate these clothes back into good hands and getting women prepared for the jobs that they want." And so we started as a resale clothing boutique to really help women move into careers that required business attire. And after about 10 years of running the store and recognizing that women needed more than clothes, we decided to pivot our mission in 2017 and have a real focus on both professional and personal development. And so we opened our doors and welcomed our first cohort of members in March of 2021.
Christian F. Nunes (03:32):
That is awesome. So I love the name Rung for Women. It's a very interesting name. Could you tell us a little bit more about how the organization decided to come up with that name?
Leslie K. Gill (03:44):
Yeah, so actually our store, the original store was called Rung. And so then as we were moving into what we call Rung 2.0, we wanted to keep the original sort of genesis of the concept, but knew that we needed to add for women so that people would understand that we were gender-specific and that we were really focused on economic mobility. And so that is sort of how it came about. We didn't want to lose our history and our origination, but we knew that we needed to evolve a bit to tell a slightly different story.
Christian F. Nunes (04:25):
And you're based in St. Louis, Missouri.
Leslie K. Gill (04:27):
We are right in the middle of America.
Christian F. Nunes (04:30):
Missouri has its own very interesting dynamic.
Leslie K. Gill (04:34):
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (04:35):
Could you talk about some of that a little bit for us and tell us how Rung for Women has been helping women who have been facing economic barriers, particularly in your state and then also nationally?
Leslie K. Gill (04:47):
Yes. I would say you're right. Missouri is very interesting. You have two urban centers in St. Louis and Kansas City, and then you have the rest of the state, which is pretty rural. Some of the key economic issues that impact women in our state, obviously the political climate is a big one right now. The rest of the country have a wage gap, in our state and in our cities. Occupational segregation continues to be a conversation that is important, especially post-COVID. And then I think like women across the country, children and family responsibilities, obviously the pink tax have a pretty big impact on women's ability to grow economically.
Christian F. Nunes (05:45):
So I think this is interesting because I know you mentioned the gender wage gap. Over the last year, it was really interesting because we've seen nationally, the gap get larger, but actually particularly Missouri has actually had a narrowing of the gender wage gap. What do you think is contributing to that [inaudible 00:06:04]?
Leslie K. Gill (06:04):
And I don't know this for sure, but I think more highly educated women were able to stay in the workforce mostly during COVID. And so those roles for women that were already making a higher salary, I think that has an impact. The fact that you were able to remain employed and then care for children and be in sort of a remote or flexible option certainly has had an impact I think for working women in the state of Missouri. I mean, that's the only thing I can really attribute it to because I don't think we're that dramatically different than the rest of the country. At least it doesn't feel that way. And also while we have a significant hospitality industry here, I don't think we're impacted in the same ways that either Coast would've been impacted in terms of women who are working in those service industry careers or hospitality careers. And so I think that too might be a bit of why we're seeing some decrease in the gap.
Christian F. Nunes (07:11):
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting thing, but I agree with you that overall, it's still the problem, right? We shouldn't even have a gender wage gap in the first place when it comes to earning or career potential or progression.
Leslie K. Gill (07:25):
I also think that increase in gap is like pennies, right? And certainly compounded, it makes a difference, but we're talking one or 2 cents difference. But I do think we're seeing gains in other areas like better family medical leave policies, flexibility for child care. So I think there are a few bright spots, still obviously not where we really need to be, but I do think there are some other benefits that are improving.
Christian F. Nunes (07:58):
So you're naming these benefits for Missouri or you're naming these benefits for nationally?
Leslie K. Gill (08:03):
Primarily for Missouri. I mean, there's still a child care crisis, but we are seeing some improvement in terms of flexibility and work culture and allowing obviously post-COVID for folks to still remain in some hybrid work environments.
Christian F. Nunes (08:21):
One of the things that really stuck out to me was that you primarily focus with women earning less than $50,000 per year. And why is this your focus demographic particularly?
Leslie K. Gill (08:32):
Primarily because that's where all of our research showed that we could have the biggest impact in that group of women who have some work history, are showing up every day, likely in entry-level, mid-career opportunities, know the value of working. And so they're making a decent salary. It's just not a family-sustaining salary. And so we really want to be able to get them into career pathways that pay anywhere from 60 to $75,000 a year. And going from zero to 60 or 75 is a whole lot more difficult than if you're already working, already showing up already have a decent income, and just getting you to that next rung on the ladder is really sort of our focus.
Christian F. Nunes (09:23):
I like what you're saying about really looking at the reality of how do we accelerate these women. I also noticed that your organization is set as your career accelerator, so I'm curious about what are some of your strategies that you all do to try to accelerate women and careers?
Leslie K. Gill (09:40):
So first, I will say that we really focus on short-term trainings. So trainings that are a year or less. So we know that women can't afford to necessarily take two or three or four years to go back to college. So we're really focused on short-term trainings, one. Two, stackable credentials. So credentials that allow you to start one place and build upon that skill set and so that you can grow in a new career path. And then three, I would say about 60% of our participants or members are women of color. And so we are really focused on this conversation around diversity, equity, belonging, and helping employers really think about how they are diversifying their workforce. And that means getting more women of color and black women in particular into fields where women have been underrepresented. And so we are having very intentional conversations with employers around what are their goals, how can we help them meet those goals?
(10:50):
We are making sure that our members are best prepared. So we have a course that everyone takes called Professional Power Skills. And so it's everything from time management, executive functioning, what it's like to be the first or the only in certain industries. We're building skill sets that many employers expect people to have when they come in the door. And so we have heard consistently that technical skills get people hired, behaviors get them fired. And so we are really working with our members to practice those skills to make sure that they're prepared, to make sure they know how to navigate certain work cultures and do it with diplomacy and to ensure that they can be successful in those environments.
Christian F. Nunes (11:41):
Well, one of the interesting things I just heard you mention is having stackable credentials. Can you tell listeners a little bit more about what that looks like?
Leslie K. Gill (11:49):
Sure. So we can take manufacturing, the first step of manufacturing job might be to have some OSHA safety certification, compliance-related certifications. And then from there, you might get forklift driving or you might get welding. So all of those types of additional skills and skill sets allow you to apply for more advanced roles. And so in an environment like manufacturing, the more skills you have, the more certificates you have, the higher you can move up the ranks. Those are credentials that don't necessarily take years to accomplish. You can do it in six months. In forklifting, we do a one-day forklift class, and so in one day, you can have your forklift certification. So there are those quick certifications, quick technical trainings that allow you to really advance in your career. And so that's where the acceleration comes in. The more training and education and skill building that you can obtain, the more you can accelerate in your career.
Christian F. Nunes (13:03):
So I like that. And one of the things I also like is that you all offer this child care, medical care on site, and this season's really about women uplifting women, and sometimes, women have these barriers we all know, not that they're bad barriers, but there are additional barriers that can be in place and responsibilities that women all sometimes have that make it harder for them to climb and accelerate the career path. So how do you all see your role in uplifting women and empowering them to be able to accomplish this?
Leslie K. Gill (13:36):
One thing that was really fundamental in the design of our program was community. So we wanted women to be surrounded by like-minded women, women who were on a similar journey, maybe not the exact same career pathway, but committed to changing their lives. And so we knew that in order to do that, we had to create a space that was welcoming and inviting, but also that allowed them to not just invest in themselves professionally, but also personally. So often, we were hearing women who were coming and getting into the program saying that they had not seen their primary care physician in many, many years, and that is likely because they were caring for everyone else and putting themselves on the back burner, which is women we so often do. We were also hearing that women were not having time to invest in themselves. That was not feasible for a lot of our members who were sandwiched often between caregiving and caretaking.
(14:43):
And so one of our philosophies was to provide space where we could help invest both personally and professionally. So yes, you are right, on site, we do have a medical facility where our members can come and bring their children if they need to to get their primary care services right here at Rung. Evening hours, our physician is here in the evening, so they don't have to take off work, they don't have to necessarily pull the kid out of school, but they can come here and do that. We also have a full-service gym. So workout facility, we provide yoga classes, you can do small group chain training, Zumba, step, all of the things. And then we also have a food component. So we sit on just under five acres and about a quarter of that is dedicated to food production. So we have a full-time farmer, we grow food on site.
(15:45):
And we allow our members to take those fresh produce back to their neighborhoods. We provide daily grab-and-go meals, chef-prepared, daily grab-and-go meals. So that food is never a barrier. Everything is right under one roof. There's a convenience factor because they can also bring their school-aged children. And if you're a parent, you're only as good as your kids. And so if your kids are well, you can be well. And so we have created a space where kids can come and be supervised by caring adults while mom takes the time or a guardian takes the time to go to see her coach, get some exercise in, see the physician, grab dinner, be in community with other women. And so it is so much more Christian than just the career piece of this. It is really about investing in the whole person and the whole woman.
Christian F. Nunes (16:45):
It definitely sounds holistic. And one of the things I like what y'all say is that I think you invest in joy, or-
Leslie K. Gill (16:51):
Invite joy.
Christian F. Nunes (16:52):
Invite joy.
Leslie K. Gill (16:52):
Invite joy. Yes.
Christian F. Nunes (16:54):
Yeah.
Leslie K. Gill (16:54):
Invite joy.
Christian F. Nunes (16:54):
Yeah. Which I think is so important because as a person is becoming empowered, joy has to be included in this process because we know joy is the ultimate homeostasis you need.
Leslie K. Gill (17:06):
Oh, for sure. And invite joy is one of our core values as an organization, and it's so important because often, women who are living right on the cliff, it's hard to find joy when you're living paycheck to paycheck, when you're caregiving and caretaking on both ends of the spectrum, when you're working in a role where you're may be underpaid or undervalued, all of that starts to weigh on you. And so we want our space and this community to be a space where we celebrate all of the wins and we might even be in community and figure out how we navigate the losses, but we are doing that together. We opened our doors on the heels of COVID when a lot of women were coming out of isolation and just needed to be in community. And so that value has continued even through today, where obviously, there are women who are working and more women working and not as in much isolation, but still need to be in community.
Christian F. Nunes (18:13):
Absolutely. Well, this conversation is great. I think we're learning so much about this program, and I have a couple other questions for you, but we're going to take a quick break to go to our action now and we'll be right back. It's November, and that means it's Native American Heritage month. Indigenous people in North America have endured and continue to endure centuries of injustice. In our history, Native people's cultures, identities and governments were not welcomed as a part of our nation. Instead, they were seen as a threat. Indigenous people were murdered this place and forced into assimilation through boarding schools.
(18:55):
Even now, indigenous women face murder rates at 10 times the national average. At the National Organization for Women, we know that one month of commemoration cannot make up for the historical and ongoing oppression, but we do know that commemoration can make us learn about indigenous history and culture. We can uplift the voices of indigenous women and demand improvement for their economic conditions and safety. For your action now, find out which indigenous people lived where you live now. Then head to firstnations.org/knowledge-center, where you can learn more about Native American issues and culture.
(19:39):
And now, back to our show. Okay, we're back. We've been talking to Leslie K. Gill, president, CEO for Rung for Women, and how they are helping uplift women, empower women, and help guide them in their career accelerator track. One of the things I find the most, I guess one of the greatest parts about your program is that you have membership, but your membership is free, right?
Leslie K. Gill (20:08):
Oh, yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (20:10):
So I'm curious, how are you all able to do... I think it's fantastic and wonderful, but I think it also could be a model for other states and other towns, but how you're able to do this, how you're able to service so many people and provide these services and make it free.
Leslie K. Gill (20:27):
So you are right. There is no financial obligation, but there is the investment of time. And so the program is about a one-year commitment. It averages anywhere from five to 15 hours a week for about a year. And so we are able to do this. We're a non-profit organization. We raise money, and we also have the generosity of our founder who sees us as her legacy because we know that when women are successful, communities thrive. And so that is her commitment. She allowed us to have the runway to establish the program, to get it underway, and we now have an effort around sustainability to raise money to sustain the organization long-term.
Christian F. Nunes (21:17):
Okay.
Leslie K. Gill (21:18):
And so our intention from the very beginning was to scale and to get to a point where we had proof of concept and really had some good data under our belts to be able to think about where we go next, what communities need us most, really communities that are pretty similarly situated to St. Louis, I think the mid-cap cities where there's a good industry and some major corporate support seem to be communities where the cost of living is still reasonable. So yes, we will be scaling, don't know when. That is a decision for our board to make, but it is something that we think about often and plan for and look forward to the next phase of our journey.
Christian F. Nunes (22:10):
Well, we're looking forward to it because right now, you've already served over 500 women, correct?
Leslie K. Gill (22:16):
We have, yes. We welcomed our first class in March of 2021, and today, we've served over 500 women, many of them accomplishing goals to move into new careers. We've had several members who brought their first homes. This year alone, we have reduced debt by over a half a million dollars. So really focused on this wealth creation and that is related to reducing debt, building assets, making more money, and really are seeing pretty phenomenal success for our members.
Christian F. Nunes (22:50):
So I'm curious about this concept of the wealth creation because we hear a lot these days about entrepreneurship, wealth creation, developing your legacy, and I would love for you to share with the listeners how you teach this or demonstrate it more so to women who typically are earning probably middle wage, how you're able to teach them to eliminate this step but also work toward wealth creation with the amounts of money that they're making.
Leslie K. Gill (23:20):
It's interesting, Christian, because we made an intentional decision around not pursuing entrepreneurship paths or entrepreneurship training primarily because so much of what we were seeing is women who were interested in starting their own business but had no access to capital, were barely able to make their ends meet. And so our philosophy is we want you to get into a career that allows you to plan for retirement, send a kid to college, take a vacation, and then we can have some side hustles and work to a place where hopefully, those entrepreneurial endeavors outpace your primary income. And so often with women, especially black women, there are no shortage of great business ideas, but we don't always have the economic capability to start businesses. And so we're like, we're not going to be a dream crusher, but we want to steep you in reality.
Christian F. Nunes (24:29):
But I think that is so great because one of the reasons I brought this up, Leslie, is I think sometimes we skip steps when we're trying to talk to people about economic stability and independence, and we're like, "You got to go straight to entrepreneurship and own a home." Well, everyone can't get there that fast. And part of starting where a person's at and empowering them is teaching them how do they work within their means, work within their situation and what can they accomplish.
Leslie K. Gill (24:53):
A lot of this is just access to information, education. We're not saying that you need to stop getting the hair done, the nails done, the things that you enjoy, but we are saying let's establish a spending plan that is realistic but also helps you look at the big picture and reduce some of your debt. So we see a lot of credit card debt, we see a lot of medical debt, people not knowing they had medical bills that have gone to collections and they're impacting their credit. So that's how we've been able to reduce debt for our cohorts this year by over a half a million dollars. It's like just taking those baby steps and not avoiding it. We have some great investors in the organization who are trust-based philanthropists who are like, "We want to give you a grant to help women pay down their debt." And so we have a match. So if you put a thousand dollars in, we'll put a thousand dollars in and if the credit card is only a $2,000 debt, let's go ahead and take care of that and watch your credit score improve.
(26:08):
And so it's having those conversations. It's also working with women when they're faced with the opportunity to take on a new job. So many of our participants come to us having worked multiple jobs, gig jobs, part-time jobs, whatever it's required to make ends meet. Also weighing the real dilemma around how do you start to move away from government assistance and government benefits, right? If you're going to take this new job that is paying you $24, $25 an hour, you're probably going to have to forfeit some benefits. And what is that decision point? How do we help you navigate it? What does your spending plan look like? How do you ensure that you can still have a lifestyle that is joyful and happy, but allows you to grow and start to create wealth? So it's not about homeownership always, it's not about the business always.
Christian F. Nunes (27:09):
I love it.
Leslie K. Gill (27:10):
Often, it's about just being very practical.
Christian F. Nunes (27:13):
But I think that's so important, Leslie, because everyone doesn't want to own a home and everyone doesn't want to be an entrepreneur. Some people are totally okay having a nine-to-five job and having a 401(k), and we have to also see that as that doesn't diminish a woman's empowerment, her sense of independence, her sense of leadership to be that woman that chooses that. So I think it's so important that you all are doing that. And also too, it doesn't matter if your job is a CEO job or it's a manufacturing job or whatever. Where are you setting the goals for yourself and how are you working toward achieving those goals and the resources to support you, like you said, the community you need to help get you there.
Leslie K. Gill (27:54):
Yeah, those social networks are so incredibly important because many of our members are first in family to amass some level of success, and so they become the go-to for their other family members. And so it's also how do you navigate those issues when they arise as you start to make more money.
Christian F. Nunes (28:15):
Yes. Boundaries.
Leslie K. Gill (28:17):
Yes. I know you're a social worker, so you get it, but I mean that's also a really important conversation is like how do you learn to say no?
Christian F. Nunes (28:29):
Yeah, it's such an important life lesson we all have to continue to work on, right?
Leslie K. Gill (28:35):
For sure. For sure.
Christian F. Nunes (28:37):
Oh my goodness. Leslie, this has been a great conversation, but we are out of time, but my last question for you is going back to our theme, the [inaudible 00:28:46] with women, uplifting women, what do you hope the impact of your work and the work of your organization will be?
Leslie K. Gill (28:55):
I mean, ultimately, I want more women to make more money. I want our impact to be that the gender wage gap doesn't exist anymore. I want our impact to be women are able to go into environments that have good family leave policies and allow them to be able to care for themselves and their families and also be professionally productive. I really see a world where this is possible. I see a world where women are inviting joy, and I see a world where women are good to each other, and obviously when women are well, communities are well. And so I see safer, healthier, more empowered communities, and so I really do believe that's our work, and it is such a honor to do it every day.
Christian F. Nunes (29:51):
Well, thank you for the work that you all are doing, and thank you for your commitment to the work to empower communities and help motivate and get people to a place of thriving, not just surviving. That's the big part, right?
Leslie K. Gill (30:06):
Absolutely. One other thing, Christian, is harmony, not balance, right?
Christian F. Nunes (30:09):
Oh, say it again.
Leslie K. Gill (30:12):
Harmony, not balance. Because look, when you look at those scales, it's real hard to find balance. But when you can find harmony between work and family, that is a recipe to thrive.
Christian F. Nunes (30:27):
Leslie K. Gill, thank you for your leadership in this work.
Bethany Brookshire (30:33):
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast this week as we talk about the importance of uplifting women's careers. If you liked it, we'd love it if you liked and subscribed to the show. You can also send us your thoughts and questions at feminismNOW@NOW.org. Head to NOW.org to read up on NOW's core issues and our approach to advancing women's equality. Together, we can make a difference. I'm Bethany Brookshire. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon.

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