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Safety FM with Jay Allen delivered 777 episodes from May 2018 through November 2025, featuring candid conversations with safety leaders, operational thinkers, and innovators reshaping how work gets done. The show explored Human & Organizational Performance (HOP), safety systems, culture, and the real dynamics behind everyday work.
Across seven and a half years, Jay Allen mixed interviews, insights, and signal-sharp commentary designed to cut through performative narratives and bring clarity back to the conversation.
The show has concluded its run, but all 777 episodes remain available here as a complete archive for listeners, students, and practitioners who want to revisit the ideas that transformed the safety space. If you are looking for Jay's current, ongoing broadcasts, be sure to check out the Rated R Safety Show.
[SPEAKER_01]: This video did it this joke, this brought to you by Safety FM.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to another episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods because today's episode is a doozy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope you're ready.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get to sit down today, or at least I have the privilege of sitting down today, with Dr. Todd Conklin.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to sit down.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have a brief conversation about his new book, The Seability Trap.
[SPEAKER_02]: how safe and stable organizations still find ways to fail and what to do about this problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: So sit back and relax as we have a conversation with Dr. Todd Conklin on Safety FM with Jay Allen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so Todd, we have to get into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I never understand how your brain works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is a good thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've kind of hung out for years at this particular point.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's been a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not sure I understand how to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anybody really knows how brain works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, every time that we talk about books, we always go over this thing where you tell me that the last book is the last book, but there's something that got you excited that you decided to do another book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me some info how did this start, how did the journey go?
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is actually a really good question because first of all, you're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every book is the last book or it's gonna be the last book, I think, and this one's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I have to give a talk later or early next year.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I started thinking about the talk why was that the community of human and organizational learning meeting?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I talked to David Woods about this idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it became really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were talking about aviation and why there was all of a sudden a spate of failures in what it's considered one of the safest operations globally.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's not even considered the safest operations globally.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is the safest operation globally.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we started talking about the fact that
[SPEAKER_00]: And because the economies kind of currently, I don't know if you follow the news at all, Jay, but because the economy's kind of crazy, and there's all these pressures that companies are leveraging any margin for additional shareholder value.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're trying to use all available space.
[SPEAKER_00]: to make money, and in doing so, they're kind of taking the margins that really safety kind of lives in, the gap between the blue line and the red line between actual operations and the actual risk, and they're making that as small as possible, and then they're kind
[SPEAKER_02]: So, as you went through the process and you talked to woods, did you already have ideas in place on what you wanted to do, or you kind of didn't have a book, but all of a sudden he said, okay, here's a trigger event that's made this lead me down this direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely the latter of the two.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I definitely had ideas.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think about this a lot, because I think probably everybody in our world was thinking about it, but I certainly didn't have any inkling at all that I would have enough stuff to actually write down and share with people.
[SPEAKER_02]: So as you go through the process, so the book is titled, the stability trap is what I have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do people need to understand the five principles of human performance before they get to this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this kind of, I can start off from scratch here?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or do I have to have the principles down before I get here?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, can that's a really good question?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it doesn't include any of the five-principles stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I guess the assumption is is that people have thought about the five-principles before they pick up that book, but I think it would also stand along pretty well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it seems like it stands along pretty well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm basing it on the AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys did for me, that was amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe we should talk a little bit about that, because some people will not be aware of what's going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: But do we want to go into specifics on how it came about?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or, where do we want to go with this?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a bad, that we always talk about knowing inside baseball.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where to come from.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to, it's hard to think about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so I wrote the book, but I hadn't written the ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: because I didn't really know what I wanted it to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, every book is kind of the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're all sort of the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting the copy of the real title.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was gonna say, I figured we would let people catch on that every book is exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not supposed to know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're supposed to figure that out as they go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I appreciate that I screwed it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: The title of the book is the stability trap.
[SPEAKER_00]: How safe and stable organizations still find ways to fail and what to do about this problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of a good title, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you shouldn't judge a book by its title, but it's in my good title.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so,
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wrote a bunch of stuff, basically just ideas.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've written a book, so you know what this is like, but for people who haven't written a book, you, you, at least in my, in the way I do it, I don't know how you did it, yeah, that'd be curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't write an outline or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just kind of start writing the main ideas.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I expand the main ideas, and they either expand forward or backwards, and pretty soon you have enough that there's,
[SPEAKER_00]: chapter start to appear and you you have a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's just kind of it's sort of an emergent phenomenon.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I always try to write books that aren't really, so I think we tend to fetishize academics a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I try to write books that are much more conversational and useful and not really heavy academic books because I'm not really sure
[SPEAKER_00]: That the people who I hang out with aren't really looking for heavy academic books are kind of looking for ideas that they can make their own right so so that's kind of what starts the book and so I get a bunch of stuff written because I've thought about what David Woods talked about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've looked into it much deeper, and I compared and contrast it with what Eric Collin and I go talk to about with efficiency thrown as trade-off, which is kind of all in the same country.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all this additional margin being used for different benefits, either profitability or shareholder value or safety margin or, I mean,
[SPEAKER_00]: organizations are making decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure they're consciously making decisions, but they're making decisions in real time around that additional margin.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the book kind of came together and it was, I thought I was making good traction, but I didn't know how I ended because generally
[SPEAKER_00]: Safety books with like a little list of stuff to do, or a list of challenges, or a lot of times there'll be study questions, you know, there'll be things that you can end with, and so I, I took it to, brand.
[SPEAKER_00]: in New Zealand, and he ran it through Notebook LM, which is an AI process, and made it into an interview, and then sent it back to me, and I was just blown away by the interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was, it, first of all, they kind of, it sort of reorganized the book in a different way, and that was really good for me because that forced me out of my bias into looking at the
[SPEAKER_00]: And they didn't write an ending, I mean, they didn't add anything, but it sort of increased the conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in a way, Jay, it was weird because it almost made it almost kind of made it like I didn't want to finish the book, because I was like, well, I guess it's done.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need anything else.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was sort of this weird dilemma, because I didn't use AI to write the book at any point.
[SPEAKER_00]: zero AI, but I, but Brinthen used AI to process the books so he could get an impression of it, and it sort of created the ending.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, did any of that make sense?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, it makes sense because keep in mind that for an end user or how you make the sausage as we discuss many, many, many moons ago, they're not going to know exactly what you did to get to this particular portion.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you did mention a couple of things that I found interesting inside of there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one, I love hearing the whole process on how you got there.
[SPEAKER_02]: you didn't think that she were going to how and how to end the book because of the AI portion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you look at this now because of how AI plays into a factor with everything?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is issues that we're running into the workplace to on how we're incorporating the AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was really interesting because because it's pretty easy to look at AI and say this has got a lot of potential negative.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, a lot of potential positive.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I think it really did with help me do the analysis of what I'd written so far, so that I was better prepared to write.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once I got over the hurdle that I didn't need to finish it, which I think was my own kind of laziness, then it helped me do the analysis and help me rewrite the ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can kind of see a potential there for AI in like accident investigations or event learning because what it does is it kind of,
[SPEAKER_00]: reorganizes your thoughts and they're definitely your thoughts.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it reorganizes your thoughts in a way that makes you think differently about your very own thoughts.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you done stuff with it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I've played with a lot of AI stuff in regards of taking a look like I will tell you I have taken some of my books and dumped them in there and then just try to come up with like separate what
[SPEAKER_02]: I won't say skits, but more along the lines of focusing on some of the shows that we do with some of the main story stuff, so we use that for some of the concepts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I just don't think that I could just go, oh yes, mentally I can think about this stuff based on that book.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's been a hot minute since I wrote it, but it's almost like you told me many moons ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: Once you write it, you won't remember that you put it out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every card is the content, and that's a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really, that's actually a really important point you brought it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it once you write the book, you sort of send it out there, and it's not yours anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you don't feel like you have ownership.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know how other people feel when they write things down, but you don't feel like you have ownership for the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought this book was interesting because one is it really tackles a conversation that we just need to have.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is that as we get more safe and stable,
[SPEAKER_00]: There really is a stability trap.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this stability trap is the belief that we must have the problem when solved.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so therefore, because the problem solved, we don't need to put any more resources in analysis and problem management because we solved the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then we're sort of surprised when a system that's normally stable fails.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then two questions come out of that right away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to ask the question of will you be putting the interview that Brent came up with in the book at least in the audio version for people to be able to hear it
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, because I think I mean, now that you mentioned it, of course, it would be a crucial part here that people are going to want to know what's going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then number two, when you start taking look at the stability trap, you are aware that some of the words that people use out there for this trap is the drive to zero.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is going to be a fairly zero.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be the feelings question.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you feel about all that when you hear this?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if an organization brings you in and says, hey, we want you to be our focus model to the drive to zero.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you handle this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, but you're exactly right, drive to zero.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the capturing the notion of worker complacency, those are all really parts of this stability trap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think one thing, I mean, I think that's what the book does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it says, this is a conversation that the organization has to have, because this is a problem that the organization has, not the individual workers have.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what this does is it takes it from an individual problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: What traditionally this has been seen is kind of an individual problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the worker would have been less complacent, would have paid more attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what have been the phrase that you hear all the time is a healthy sense of unease, chronic unease, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Then this problem wouldn't have happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the dilemma is not only do we,
[SPEAKER_00]: do we count on and and depend upon our systems being stable, but we also then use those to increase profitability and shareholder value.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a real paradox here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a very interesting paradox.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, it's interesting because I get to talk to people that are at the field level and, you know, entry management level where you hear these conversations that take place from time to time where all of a sudden you had somebody who's inside of the safety department that does extremely well, but for cost-cuzzing measures, they might put the second in command.
[SPEAKER_02]: inside of there and say, hey, this is a person that needs to lead forward in regards to things that's going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I look at it is, is that part of the stability trap when it when it's all said and done because they believe that the system is already kind of being will say ordained, but just to some extent in regards of how much running by the people that are there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But always in this second person in command can run this.
[SPEAKER_02]: system, even though it's not part of the whole organization to be right by the they have a safety system per se.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then all of a sudden you run into these problems that were not there before when this other person was there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You look at that as part of the stability trap as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally and you can even use the phrase the organization believes that the safety program is mature you know that the program is is developed and mature and thoughtful and it is it's developed and mature and it's thoughtful The problem is is that it that doesn't in and of itself ensure that the program will continue to be mature
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're in this constant dilemma of the paradox, constantly creating ways to think about what do we do with the system that we know by definition is slowly eroding over time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so whatever stability we have today doesn't ensure we'll have stability tomorrow, and that is not a comfortable thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the problem when you run into these uncomfortable thoughts because we get to talk to so many people in these interesting segments, especially the middle management.
[SPEAKER_02]: How are these conversations had that at least that you've heard of with the upper management because the great part about it is that you get to interact with kind of the best of both worlds.
[SPEAKER_02]: You get to see the C-suite, you get to see the line-level people.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how are those conversations, how are the scenes behind the doors that people tell you about of this is how they're handling it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so I think that's one of the things the book talks about is that we also do that very same thing with middle management time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So middle leadership is constantly being pressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're pressed from above because, you know, all the senior leaders want to know what's happening and assure me that nothing battle happened and make sure we make money and be happy and create a good culture and
[SPEAKER_00]: and invite psychological safety, all the things we talk about all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're also getting pushed from below by workers who are saying, hey, we don't need, we don't have the resources and capacity to do this work.
[SPEAKER_00]: The press and us, we're running really lean.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every system is kind of brittle, we need more people, we need more time, we need more equipment.
[SPEAKER_00]: fill in the blank.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so those middle leaders are really pressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the questions I think we have to ask is have we thought about creating an environment where middle leadership can actually be successful?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that means we have to look at the value that Middle Leadership gives us, both above and below, and ask the question, what are we making them do that's not valuable?
[SPEAKER_00]: And see if we can remove some of that from the system.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think again, it's weird we're gonna talk about AI in this interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was, I have no idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: We never have an idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: We never have an idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, there, I think we can ask questions, well, where can we automate and where can we use AI at the middle leadership level to actually remove non-valued duties and create more capacity for them to actually serve as a supervisor or a translator,
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting to say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm going to get to a point here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: The reason that I'm saying this is because when you start taking a look, there are now these wearable devices that are out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So people are saying, hey, we're capturing data.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is as good as we are.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you see that factor into this in regards of trying to transform some of these systems, especially if they're using wearables inside of an organization?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so one of the things that I think we really should talk about in the book does talk about this is that we tend to actually become slaves to the data collection process and spend a majority of a time proving that our data is right, not proving that our system is stable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm not sure, you know, wearables is a big category.
[SPEAKER_00]: What worries me about wearables is they've become another way to do surveillance on workers.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not sure surveilling workers more.
[SPEAKER_00]: is helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially if the premise of this book is, is that the organization is going to use the excess capacity that exists to create safety and turn it into profit, then wearables aren't going to make much difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a really interesting challenge.
[SPEAKER_00]: The important thing I think about this discussion is that the challenge is already here for many organizations.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's certainly here for aviation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's just so much good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you're alive right now, and I'm guessing JUR, because I'm talking to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: you've just lived through a whole period of time where they reduced flights in the United States because there weren't enough capacity for the air traffic controllers to do the work.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's actually a really interesting question because that's a very stable system that is becoming less stable and it's becoming less stable because the margins within which
[SPEAKER_00]: that work is done, have become so thin that there's no room for variability or uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you have a really lean, really brittle system and you add some kind of variation to that system, the system has to expand, it has to bend and twist and all those bending and twisting actions are in lieu of it breaking.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, hey, hey, well, I think it's not your thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, no, you got me because here's the thing because it's trying to get people into that mindset is getting them down that path of can you understand that you do not have any, any capacity inside of your system to be able to go off kilter of, hey, it can't be single point because a lot of people still depend on these single point failure system because they don't have anything set up.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, how do you do this?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you get them into that mindset?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this book
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of the premise of what started the book because you're exactly right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's even kind of worse than you said because it's the belief that the system is already stable.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's mature that we're done with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to spend more time on this part because we haven't had a accident in this area for 26 years and so it must be good problem solved when in fact we know that problem
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a, so they have to, there's really three things that's dumb.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you just pick three because that's a good way to write a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are things, there are things companies can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: One is they have to reframe safety, and they have to move the definition of safety from an outcome to achieve to a capacity to manage.
[SPEAKER_00]: right, which we've had this conversation for a million years and and we know that organizations who see safety as a capacity are much better at being safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll get you know high risk organizations like the park service search and rescue team.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean there's tons of teams you can look at that are highly reliable that meet the test.
[SPEAKER_00]: The second thing is we have to really reframe
[SPEAKER_00]: workers from being the problem to actually being the accessible way we can monitor our systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: So workers know where systems are becoming more stable, they also by definition are going to know where systems are becoming more fragile.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we need to ask them monitor that and then be able to move in and create capacity where capacity is needed to be created, which we've kind of done.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's, it's interesting when you look at, I was just thinking about this this morning, Jay, that the pandemic started in 2019, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was towards the end of 2019, it really went into effect for 2020.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of funny because I was going to ask you something about that, but go ahead.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what, and it's, and it's now almost 2026.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's unbelievable to me that we're five years into this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just, it probably makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've never been through a pandemic, but we're just down kind of thinking about what this means and creating systems that we hope will go back to normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not sure there's any normal to go back to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a really interesting challenge.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the third thing they have to do
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to create systems that don't assume safety is stable.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, quite the opposite.
[SPEAKER_00]: They assume safety is a capacity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they put more safety, whatever that means.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm putting a little bit of approach already.
[SPEAKER_00]: More safety, he put air quotes on when he said that.
[SPEAKER_00]: More safety when the risk is higher.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we need to really match that notion of capacity with potential risk exposure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I have to tell you, you bring a lot of good points here, and I almost have to ask you a crystal ball question because I remember when the pandemic first came about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody was first saying, hey, 14 days to control this and so on.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were the only person that I was talking to at the time that was saying, hmm, that's not what I'm hearing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember you told me three years and I was like, no, you're off your rocker.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is where we were.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was three years almost exactly before kind of, everything opened.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if I'm gonna ask you another crystal ball question which I even asked you back then, what do you see the future of AI being?
[SPEAKER_02]: Being is we're seeing so many different things that it's going into, and I'm particularly talking about what we do here, and we'll say the safety department, even though that's not really your source, but that's kind of where you lean heavily to.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, it's a great question.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what do you see it is, I see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I discovered in the process of this book, which was a total unintended consequence and kind of fun, was that what it's really good at?
[SPEAKER_00]: is taking the information we gather and re-analyzing it, reshuffling it, re-ordering it in a way that makes us look at that information differently than we've ever seen it before, which is exactly what this goofy thing that Brent made.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, I mean, I'll just speak frankly.
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason he did this AI is so he didn't have to read the text.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that's why he's a busy guy, but what happened out of that is it became so interesting because it took, it only took the data I put in.
[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't use anything else and it forced me to re-look at the data in a different way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually think AI's got a ton of power for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, do I think AI is going to replace safety people?
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are jobs.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you press me hard enough, I think you're that I could probably give you a list.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's made up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not real of jobs that will be replaced.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are jobs that will go away because of a period.
[SPEAKER_00]: No question about it, but I think safety because it's got that non engineering interface.
[SPEAKER_00]: It will always require adaptive people creating relationships in order to understand better how our systems are functioning.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that the book talks about a lot is we can't use engineering metrics to measure non-engineering problems.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or what I think I've phrased it is, we can't fix a human performance challenge
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that means AI is going to help us reframe that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it won't give us more engineering tools to use.
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll give us more ways to look at the human performance challenge.
[SPEAKER_00]: okay so let me ask the question one of the book be available for the general public for they do grab a hold of and start running with it so it's available now okay it's available now so it's it's out there now um because i kind of snuck into it i mean i i never intended to write it so i'm not overly excited about the rollout i mean it's it's just out there ready to go and we'll see if people read it or not okay it'll be fun
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Todd, I appreciate you number one coming on to the show and I appreciate everything that you've done for this industry in one way shape or form.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though you don't want to do it, you don't want to take that guy to Paris.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got you, but I appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're so kind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for coming on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, my friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate it, sir.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you did a good job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll try to do this as a profession at some point.
[SPEAKER_00]: But why do you think about doing this as a job?
[SPEAKER_00]: But then do a great job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for watching!
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