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Are you a business owner? Or are you on the verge of taking that side hustle to the next level? Or curious about the world of entrepreneurship? Join Vivian Kvam, Co-Owner of Tandem Works, each week for a behind-the-scenes at small businesses and what it takes to succeed.
Each episode is full of inspiration, education, tips, and great conversation with people like you, people who are figuring it out. Take your business to the next level with insight from expert guests in business, leadership, and marketing.
Hi there. This is your host Vivian, and you're listening to Tandem Works Works, a podcast that is all things business, entrepreneurship and the secret to operating a successful business while still having a life you love. Whether you're a business owner on the verge of taking that side, hustle to the next level, or just curious about the world of entrepreneurship, join me as I go behind the scenes of my own business and the businesses of others, unpacking some of the most valuable lessons you can apply today. Let's dive in. Hey, I'm so excited to have you here today. This is actually one of our first recordings of Tandem Works Works in 2023. But as podcast recording goes, obviously you're listening to a tad bit later. But I'm excited just to be welcoming the beginning of the year and as part of that, talking today with a good friend and amazing person of wisdom, mary Marianne Chance. And we're going to be talking today and learning all about fear and learning to fear less and so many things surrounding that word. I've been excited about this because one of the things I love about Marianne and she says this about herself, that she's all about betting on herself, which is probably why we get along so well because I really like that idea. But Mary Ann is brilliant, hilarious, and just plain awesome sauce. And I love that she uses the word awesome sauce in her bio because she is and I have had the pleasure of getting to know her and her awesomeness. Marianne is also extremely accomplished. She has trained over 20,000 people in nearly every state and all over the world. She's recognized as one of the top trainers in America, which is super cool. In 2013, she started Work Warrior, which is a training organization that provides manager and team training to companies across all states. And it was early-ish on in Work Warrior that I got to meet her, so I'm excited to unpack that more. Marianne also provides professional coaching. She utilizes her certifications in business and entrepreneurship, spirituality, life, purpose, and forgiveness. So it covers a wide range of topics. So I'm excited today because even though we're going to be talking about fear, I'm sure so many things are going to get brought up. She's also an author of Out Is through a workbook that helps people heal by walking them through how to radically accept reality, which I love. I'm a realist, but also deal with the emotions, which is the hard part for me that comes with doing so. And then today, Marianne is a successful business owner. But before deciding to go out on her own, Marianne spent over a decade in corporate America in leadership and management roles. So she's highly qualified, is what you can read there. In 2010, she received her Masters in Organizational Development from Avila, I think I'm saying correctly.
Avila.
Avila. Thank you. University. And she applies all her amazing experience to elevate amazing people around the world. And that's why she's here today, to help elevate us.
That's why I'm here. That's why you're here. I'm so excited.
I'm excited, too.
Well, I made out my top five six-month goals for the beginning of the year, and one of them was to be on five podcasts. And I can now cross that out and put four awesome little did you know that you were actually helping me meet my goals on the third yeah.
The third day of the year.
Third day of the year. And here we go.
This is awesome.
Goals.
Very cool. I love it. That's one of my goals, too, is to be a guest on some other podcasts. I think that'd be really fun. Have you done that before, be guest on other ones?
Yeah, they are fun because you never know where they're going. And even when people send you questions beforehand, like they do a lot of times, there's so many different tangents that you can go on to get really, really good connection out there and information out there and all that good stuff. So you should do it. Yeah. In fact, I'm thinking right now of somebody that I'm going to hook you up with that you should be on her podcast.
Awesome. One of the things I thought was really fun in your bio that you put on here is that people have said you're so engaging, you'll forget to eat your snacks while you're listening to you. And I recently got the pleasure of getting to hear you present, which actually was even though I've known you for a number of years and we've had great coffee conversations and wine and cheese conversations, I had never actually got to hear you in action. And you came and were a speaker at the Rising Tide event that we co-hosted here, and you were amazing.
Well, thank you. And I remember making the connection that you were the one that introduced Lisa and I, and I had messaged you about that. And I remember your response was, yeah, I told her that I had never heard you present, but you're probably really good. And I was like, okay, cool. Probably really good. I'm like, I think I can hopefully meet those standards. So that was a really, really fun event. And I was also talking about something that matters tremendously to me, and that is the topic of fear and how it can be paralyzing if we don't address it and recognize what it is. And how do we behave when we're afraid and what can we do in spite of it? So that was really fun.
It was such an amazing topic that my husband actually was there, and I'm going to bleep the word out, but he was like, she is effing amazing. She just hit the nail on the head. And he wasn't the only one who felt that way, but just the way he expressed that I think a lot of people felt that day. Like, wow, you just took a topic that I'm fearful of and made it that much easier to think about.
Well, I think that we treat fear. Oh, my God, we are so dumb with how we treat fear, right? Because we put quotes around it. Like, the only thing you have to fear is fear itself. Go out into the world and be fearless. And when we read those, the vast majority of us are like, but I still feel afraid. And so we bury it and we don't talk about it and we don't recognize that one. It's a universal feeling. The fact it makes me smile that you talk about Troy saying that, because it's not just a female thing, which I think a lot of times from a business-owning perspective, we think that females have more fear than men, which is untrue interesting, and it's also like a universal feeling and that we will always have it. We act as fear is something that we can extinguish, but you have to remember that something has to keep us safe. Something has to keep us from petting that tiger. And what happens is life, and we get hurt, whether it's rejection from a relationship, whether it is we didn't get a job promotion, whether it's we tried a business and then it didn't fail or it didn't work, or whatever that is. And our brains start to create stories around that so that the next time we're in a similar situation because our brains want to protect us, they're going to bring up that incident. And then all of a sudden, we're going to sit in fear. And so all of these, like, where fear is meant to keep us alive, it becomes a much bigger issue when life happens and we start to have that fight or flight instinct because we want to run away from pain.
What is fear? I say that and I go, well, it's an emotion, but is that what it is? What is fear?
I don't think I've ever okay, hold on. I'm going to define it. Yeah, it's going to be a Marianne on the spot definition. I love it. And I'm going to take the psychological stamp. I'm going to actually do the physiological excuse me, the physiological thing definition of what fear actually is. And fear is when we are in a situation that we feel that we need to protect ourselves from. So we become drunk on adrenaline and we become drunk on cortisol. That means that our blood pressure is through the roof and that means that our heart is racing. And the big thing that people need to remember is that when we become flooded with these two chemicals, we are in fight, flight or freeze mode.
Okay?
Now depending upon what the situation is, we can either immediately feel it, which is when we're going to get hot, we're going to get sweaty, our heart is going to start racing. Or sometimes it will just be that feeling that you get like in the pit of your stomach. You know what I'm talking about? You just got sucker punched. So you still feel like you're functional, but there's this thing inside of you that you keep focusing on that's trying to protect you, but it's just not as loud or shouting as adrenaline and cortisol.
So when I think of it in that regard and in my experience with fear, I'll be like, oh, I'm having an emotion but it's so physical. Yeah, probably more physical than I don't know if that's true. I don't know if I would say it's more physical than any other emotion, but it's dang physical when I have fear.
Oh yeah it is. Well, because again, you're in survival mode. You're never actually experiencing fear and being like, yeah, but I'm cool, common, collected. Those two things are almost mutually exclusive. So what you have to do is when you start to feel fear, go, okay, hold on, time out. Let me ask myself, why am I acting this way? And then when you can identify well, I'm acting this way because I'm afraid that if I tell Vivian that I'm really upset over that thing that she said, I'm afraid that then all of a sudden she's not going to be my friend anymore. Oh, okay. So you're acting out of fear because of loss of connection. So let's calm down, let's tell yourself a different story. Let's tell yourself a better story so that you can act in spite of that fear.
That's interesting. And as you were saying it and then you said it, it's like we're telling ourselves stories that often haven't even happened yet.
Oh, we tell ourselves we are amazing storytellers and our stories are always about us and they are always worst case scenario ever, right? Like I've been in business for nine and a half years. That's a significant amount of time. That's pretty significant. And there will be times when I look at my calendar and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I only have two workshops in April. I'm probably not going to get any more, and I'm probably not going to be able to pay my bills. And oh, my God, I'm going to have to move back to Liberty and live with my mom. And it's going to be terrible and horrible and awful. And it's like, okay, you've have no evidence of that, but just in that moment, you cannot see beyond that blank page or whatever. And so then that fear creeps in, and you're just paralyzed. Like, you're just paralyzed. And you don't realize, like, oh, I need to look beyond this because that's not the history, that's not the evidence that I have for nine and a half years.
Yeah, it is interesting how we'll discount that evidence so quickly and start telling ourselves these stories that they're not even true.
Or how about even if they were true, like, the worst case scenario wouldn't happen? Yeah, there's also that, right. Like, oh, okay, well, let's say that I don't have any other business in April. Are you really going to become homeless and have to go move and live with your mom?
Probably not. In one month?
No, not at all.
Right.
And you're also acting as though I can't go do other things, like, oh, maybe like, you know, it's it's very victim because you are not taking responsibility for the role that you play and the different choices that you can make to have that not be the outcome.
When did you start getting so interested in fear and in figuring this out?
It was, okay, I have no concept of time because of the pandemic. So we're going to say four years ago, okay, maybe five. Four or five. And In Motion in Lincoln, Nebraska, actually asked if I would put together a mindset training for female entrepreneurs. And I was like, yes, I would love to do that. That's right up my alley. So I started researching all the things that you would research. So I researched negotiation. I researched personal branding, conflict resolution, assertiveness, and I was like, you know what? I could go in front of this group of amazing women, teach them all this stuff. They would furiously take notes, and then they would go out into the world, and they would do absolutely nothing with it. And I was like, okay, so the real issue that I need to figure out is, why do we learn things and get excited and then do nothing with them? And so as I started to research that, I was like, oh, well, it's fear. That's why.
Because we'll have these moments leave a talk really excited or have read a book or gone to a lecture or workshop, like, so excited. But then what you're saying is it's fear that it's getting in our way from executing on it or taking action?
Well, yeah, when I talk to people and I say, what is the number one thing that you're afraid of? Just guess what they say.
Public speaking.
No, that's not it. I was, like, trying to figure out how to give you a clue as to what to say, and I was like, It's failure. I'm just going to give it to you. We would spend the next 20 minutes going back and forth, and you would be like, funny joke.
Having to tell a funny joke. A dad joke flopping. Is that what I'm looking for.
No. Okay, so it's failure, right? Failure. And the problem with failure is that it is such a ginormous word that if we don't break it down, of course we're going to be overwhelmed. So, for example, let's see when I released my workbook out us through, which you mentioned in the opening, this was a really big deal to me. It was a very scary let's actually use the word different. It was a very scary ordeal to me because it was the first workbook that's a standalone that I've ever created. It was taking tools that I love and I teach and putting them in a standalone format. There were posts that I wrote that were very, very personal that I put in there. And you're putting it out into the world and you're like, here, this is going to help you. And that felt very personal. It felt very scary. And of course, the what ifs. What if nobody buys it? What if everybody buys it and then all of a sudden they leave reviews and they're like, this is the stupidest workbook in the whole wide world. Who would ever buy this? Who does she think that she is, right? Even when there you've got judgment, you've got impostor syndrome, you've got lack of abundance issues. So much came up into that. And yet there's all these thoughts that I had when I released it and what I had to do was figure out that, okay, you put your heart and soul into this. Like you thought through all of the elements and is it perfect? Probably not. But all that feedback that you get just makes that next product better. So how do you get in a space to say, you know what, maybe somebody says, I really thought that there was I feel like there's going to be a spoiler for somebody out there and they're going to be looking for this, but I really wish you would have dove more into that joy piece of it, right? Because it just kind of hangs there. Well, okay, let's not get upset over that. Let's go. Cool. Now I have that next product to create. And I think that we allow fear of judgment, fear of other people's opinions of us or our business or our work get in the way of creating, get in our way, period.
It feels very vulnerable. I mean, I can see that with what you're saying. You're putting a lot of vulnerability. You are truly taking a piece of yourself and putting it out there. And I think of that with every business I've started, with the business I'm in right now. It's taking pieces of me and putting them on constant, everyday public display or at minimum display to my clients. And what if they laugh? Or what if they don't like that idea? Or what if I misunderstood them and then I look like I look silly because I didn't understand the direction and now we've gone this way or I misspoke one of my biggest things. And I think you'll be proud of this. I'm a terrible speller. Horrific. My poor mother, she really tried hard to teach me how to spell, and I like, add an E on the end of everything because I learned that there's a silent E. So I was like, oh, well, then I think an E looks pretty here, and I'm going to put an E on the end. And she's like, no, you can't do that. I'm like, but it's a silent E. So, yeah, weird spelling nuances. And I do all the whiteboarding for our brainstorms. And so that was a huge fear of mine, is to get up in front of these often executive level people, smart business owners, large organizations, other business owners that I want to do business with. And I knew I was going to misspell things in front of them. So what I started doing was just naming it and just saying, I'm a terrible speller. If you'd like to help me spell today, feel free, shout out how to spell these, et cetera. But it was very hard for me to admit that, and I tried to hide it for a long time, which just made me more fearful.
Right. And you're like, misspelling like you're using the wrong form of two when you're stuck in that when you're stuck in that world of fear, because I'm going to make a mistake. So I'm curious. I'm going to ask this question to you. When you named it, like, hey, I'm just a terrible speller, and you would say that out loud. I love that. If you want to help me spell, shout it out. I love that. And by the way, I'm going to steal that. But when you did that, did anybody make fun of you?
No.
Did anybody say, wow, that Vivian, she sure is dumb?
No.
Did you get any negative reviews?
No.
Did it ever come up again?
It would come up, but in a light hearted, fun, humorous way that would break tension throughout a facilitation.
I love it.
Yeah.
So basically, what did you learn? You named it and what did you learn?
Well, it's actually become like my superpower.
Right?
Yeah. And I had built up these stories in my head. The other thing I think I had done, too, is I assumed that everyone else in the room was not human. I was the only human in the room, and everyone else were like these superheroes or something. And all of a sudden, it humanized everybody, because they would sometimes shout out, like, oh, I'm terrible at that too, or don't worry, I won the spelling bee. I'm going to help you out. And now all of a sudden, we have this connection. So the authenticity, I think, came through. Oh, yeah, interesting. By the way, I probably forgot to mention this was going to be a therapy session for me about my spelling.
That's totally all right. You gave me some water and let me plug my workbook.
Yeah, no worries. What are some of the things in your working with so many people that you've noticed, especially when it comes to business owners or business leaders? What are some of the things that you notice they fear?
Often, I think impostor syndrome is really big and this whole notion that one day they're going to figure out that I don't have my mess together. And I think that that's a known one. But it is something that I see on and on and on. And these are like, with business owners that I'm like, Wait, what? But to the world, you look amazing. You look like you've got all of your stuff together. I see that. And then I think that another thing that I see. And I'm not going to lie, I might be projecting, this might be when I turn this into a therapy session for myself, just so you know, because this is something that I've really been thinking about. But another thing that I see is oftentimes business owners get comfortable and they don't start getting uncomfortable. And it's almost like, hey, everything's going well. I'm continuing to grow year after year. I'm continuing to bring on more clients, so why would I shake it up? And we don't realize that everything that we want is on the other side of fear. I think most quotes are stupid. In fact, probably on any given day, I would think that quote is dumb. But it is so true, right? Everything you want is on the other side of fear. And so I think that sometimes with business owners, fear looks like being complacent. It means, Look, I'm doing fine. Why would I try anything new? Why would I go and stretch myself? I found my oh, I found my niche that we're supposed to do, Vivian. I found my niche.
It's true. I was just reading something similar yesterday morning, actually. I think it was about how we will stay where it feels safe. Right. And even when it's yucky, we'll stay. So I like what you're talking about, how it's comfortable. Things are actually going well. I've arrived. I've found my place or my people or my space. But then I think, how often as business owners will stay in a place even when it feels yucky?
Oh, there's two things. One. This is from Brene Brown. We will always choose comfort over courage if we're not careful, which is exactly what you're talking about. And then, oh, my gosh. I want to say that her name is Bethany Frank, and I could totally be wrong on that. And I think that her book is called The Science of Stuck, which I could also be wrong on that. But I want to make sure that I give credit. And I really think it was her. But in her book, I hope it's called The Science of stuck. She talks about how we are wired for survival, not happiness. And that's exactly what it's talking about, right? Like we are wired to make sure that we can pay our bills and protect ourselves and provide all of those on Mazda's hierarchy of needs, basic needs, and that's what we focus on versus the bigger stuff. But I don't want to be stuck in only paying my bills, right. I want to grow and learn and take risks and not necessarily be safe anymore. So that's very true what you're saying.
Yeah, it is a strange that makes sense, though, when you say that we're wired to be focused more on surviving and staying alive. And it's like, well, I'm staying alive and I'm surviving. Maybe I'm not thriving, but I am surviving. Which then of course makes me think of I am a survivor.
But that's always after like, a heartbreak, right? Somebody just did something really, really crappy to you. So give yourself a pep talk about how you're going to survive this, right. That's not going to be the aftermath of something terrible.
That's really interesting to think about how we will go. You kind of have to go through that, though. I'm thinking about sometimes where I have taken a step and broken out of a fearful situation and I am just surviving at first after that. Right. It's almost like when I think about that in my head, there will be like a situation and you kind of break out on the other side and you kind of come out sometimes panting and gasping and looking around like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I just went through that. Now I'm just sort of surviving. But then you're talking about what's on the other side and wanting to get there. It's like then you start moving into this idea of like, but now I can thrive. I came through it.
So I'm going to do another analogy that I would probably say sometimes I would think is dumb, but I don't. Sometimes I wonder as I get older, like, am I going to start collecting little crocheted sayings to put on my walls, all you need is love?
I do a lot of embroidery, so if you decide you want one of those, I'm happy to cross stitch you a little something.
Which maybe actually, maybe that's a fear of mine with judging because that's the second time that I've prefaced. Well, I usually find those things to be so maybe I am like, wow, interesting. That was right? Because I shouldn't have to preface, right. I should be able to say something. Okay, so I'm just going to say it. Do you know how butterflies are made?
Yeah.
I didn't until I heard a podcast. Whose podcast was it? Martha Beck's? I think it was Martha Beck. But you give a little caterpillar and they make this little cocoon and they completely liquefied, become liquefied.
Like, did you know that well, we raised butterflies during school, and so we did a whole unit study on it. But continue because it's super fascinating because.
It comes soup, like, they literally become soup and liquid, and then all of a sudden you can explain more, not to make this a science thing, but then all of a sudden they start to form, and then there's this butterfly. And so what you're talking about and I love that because what you're talking about is the whole liquidification I just made that word up of what happens when we experience life altering, for the most part, negative. I think there's a little bit of that when something positive happens, but for the most part, it's something negative, something traumatic. And I don't think I know that every single human experiences that. And the difference between going from a caterpillar to a butterfly or just kind of being stuck in that liquid is what choice do you make to slop through it? Am I going to take care of myself? Am I going to get therapy? Am I going to do the work to become that butterfly? Or am I going to choose survival? Am I going to choose comfort? Even if it feels nasty, it's the only thing that I know and kind of get stuck in that cocoon, for lack of a better word. So what you're talking about is very real, and I think that every human goes through it.
I like that picture when I was trying to picture my head, I think that's a perfect way of thinking of it, because it is. It's like you kind of come out. It is. You're emerging, and it's kind of soupy and weird and you feel strange, but there's these great things happening, like these wings are forming.
Right.
And it's a strange feeling. I know. I felt that with the first businesses that I had and then lost them through a very messy divorce, and there were just so many yucky things that happened that I do remember kind of coming out the other side, feeling like, whoa, what just happened? I feel kind of covered in slime, but I also feel like something amazing is happening at the same time. And it was a very rough, confusing time.
Oh, yeah.
But everything I've wanted has been on the other side of that.
Yep.
Yeah. That's great.
I know.
Good stuff. So I'm curious, when you think about new business owners, we're so fun when we're new business owners, there's a million things that go through our head. How does fear play in when you're first starting a business? What do you remember about first starting yours? Because you started off helping out, like, in corporate world, correct. You had a corporate job, is that right?
Oh, yeah, I did. So new business owners, I feel I'm going to keep it real. I feel that I'm not very helpful with new business owners, but here's what I will share that I. Feel like that's like a cop out. For me, the fear as a new business owner actually came from I have no idea what I'm doing. And if you're not selling a widget like earrings or a phone case or a candle, a tangible product, I don't think my experience is it can get very easy to get lost in the weeds. I'm going to say yes to everything. I'm going to only charge $75 for a product or for an offering when I should be charging $500 at least. And so what I remember is my fear being, what the hell am I doing? Like, what am I offering? And then of course, there was the what if this doesn't work? What if nobody wants my services? And I have really thought long and hard about, can you take a new business owner and just cut through that mess and just say, here's this guide, follow it and you will be successful. And I don't think you can. I think that that is a journey that new business owners and I'm going to keep it real, the new business owners are going to be here in nine years, right? Like, the ones that are going to stick through it are the ones that are willing to just go, the ones that are hungry. And I say that literally and metaphorically, like the ones that deep down go, but I have something to offer. I may not know what it is, so I'm going to take a big deep breath and throw something out there and see what sticks. And then also the ones that are physically hungry, the ones that are like, I got bills to pay and I'm betting on myself and so I better figure out how I'm going to pay those bills or how I'm going to land that client or how I'm going to close more. So I think that that's kind of my roundabout answer to that. In my experience, you can use fear to your advantage.
That's essentially what you're saying is hunger, the fear of, I'm not going to have enough for my family, I'm not going to have enough for me, I'm not going to be able to pay my bills. That can really spur somebody forward.
Well, yeah, that's survival.
Right?
And what is fear? Like you get in survival mode, fight or flight. That's what that is. But I also think it's interesting, and that is fear and excitement are the exact same chemicals. It's just how you interpret them.
Really?
Yes.
That's really interesting because I was just thinking, like, usually when I think of fear, I'm like, I want to avoid fear, right? But I don't want to avoid excitement.
Correct.
So maybe I don't want to avoid.
Fear and I don't have the perfect answer for this. I think that if we recognize fear and excitement are the exact same chemicals. So it's like from Armageddon and there's Owen Wilson's character and oh my God, there's some people listen to this podcast and they're going to be like, What Armageddon? I don't know that movie. They weren't even born when it came. Wow. It's moments like that that I feel old. But Owen Wilson's character goes, I'm either 99% excited, 1% scared, or maybe it's 99% scared, 1% excited.
But either way, here we go.
And he's exactly right. He's talking science there, which is fascinating because we don't ever think about that. So it's figuring out like, okay, how can I look at this as an opportunity, right? It's the JFK quote, like the word crisis in Chinese lettering means opportunity and fear or danger and opportunity or something like that, right? So it's not new, this concept that fear and excitement or positive and negative or ying and yang are intermixed. It's not new. It's just how are we going to interpret that?
So when you think about that, how do we step boldly into fear and excitement and not avoid it and stay in that stuck yuck mode?
It starts by believing there's a better way. That's where it starts, and you know it. How many friends do you have or acquaintances that you have where everything you say, there's an objection?
Oh, sure.
Well, they don't think there's a better way, right? They're not thinking, oh, maybe if I did it this way, it could be easier, or it could be healthier, or it could be this or it could be that. And so when you're stuck in that yuck that sounds like a really good blog post, doesn't it?
Sure it does.
It's catchy. It is catchy. So when you're stuck in that yuck, you've got to surrender and say, there's a better way to do this. And then that's where it starts. It starts with that there's a better.
Way, which really is how all businesses start. People say, yes, I have a better way. I have a better idea. I think this can be done differently. I think I have a secret, a solution. That's how it starts. So then it's interesting how we will often I love new business owners. I say this with the most respect ever. They're adorable.
They are adorable.
I was adorable. First time business owner.
I'm sure you were. Super adorable.
Thank you. I appreciate that. And I don't mean that at all in a derogatory way. I love to be around them because there is the excitement and the fear, and they come at you and they're like, I can do that better. And honestly, I will sometimes look at it now because I've been in business for a while, and I'm like, yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, that's been done. I even find myself doing that, and then I have to check myself and go, hold up. Don't stifle this idea. Yes, a cupcake has been made before, but that doesn't mean you can't open an awesome bakery. Let's hear this out, right? So I love to be around new business owners because I find that they inspire me to get super excited about ideas again. I remember first starting in photography and I thought I was going to take the coolest pictures of abandoned barns ever, all to find out that every photographer on the planet takes pictures of abandoned barns and thinks they're cool.
Well, okay, so let's talk about this for just a second because there is so much because there is so much to what you're saying. So I do for the most part I do what society we call is leadership training. I call it manager training. That's a whole another story. I call it manager training. There are 9 million of us out there. There are 9 million of us. And so I know exactly what you're talking about because I don't do anything unique. However, what is to me it's not the new business owners that excite me, it's the ones that are far enough down their path to recognize the unique value props that they bring, right? So in my world is it I present difficult things in a way that everybody can understand them. Is it energy and enthusiasm? Is it you have a really big brain and you're able to just kind of talk about all these things? Is it because you have a very direct style? What is your unique value prop? And that's where it gets exciting because I think that's actually when you get to start to create product that matters, I think that that's when you start to be more comfortable in your own skin and taking risks. And maybe they're not the biggest risks in the world or maybe they're huge, right? It depends on the person and I think that that can happen is easy. I feel like I'm being super generous with this time frame, but I've also seen it happen. I think you can do that in the first six to nine months. I don't think you know that right off the bat and I don't think that you know that when you're first three months. And in fact, I probably would say it probably takes more to a year and a half to two. But yeah, you can work fast.
Yeah, gosh. I would say it's taken me like nine or ten years when I think about it. Like I thought I had it and then I'll be like, no, no, no, now I've got it. And then I'm like, no, now I've got it.
So here's the thing, anytime you can get feedback, do so. Because if I'm being honest, I think I started finding my unique voice probably at two years. Like probably. But if I'm being like the best thing that helped me was I get feedback after every single event that I do. So you can start to see trends and patterns. We love your energy and your enthusiasm. Your excitement is contagious. We love how you're able to take all these topics and make them understandable. We love how you can create a safe environment for talking about really hard things. So, you know, because people are telling you, and you start to see the trends and patterns. What I have started doing is I say, you can tell me that you love my energy. I need you to tell me what I can do better. And you start to seek out that feedback. And so I even think that as you're trying to find your unique voice as a newish business owner, get that feedback. What was it about the cupcake that you loved? And you know what? Don't be afraid for somebody to say, yeah, that red velvet was kind of nasty. Okay, cool. If you hear that from three people, go and look at your recipe and make it better. And don't be afraid to go up to that person and say, vivian, I knew that you didn't like that red velvet. Do you like this? Bring them into your world of making you better.
I like that. And that is a huge area. I think people fear is feedback.
You cannot okay, now I'm going to get on soapbox. I love asking this question, and it's usually in some of my advanced leadership classes. And I'm like, can you be an expert in something? And I love what the people say because they don't ever know how to answer this. And so, like, half the time they'll be like, no, you should always be learning. And I'm like, yes, you can be an expert. You better hope we have experts. Like, you better hope those people creating, like, COVID vaccines are experts and not just guessing. And I said, but you don't become an expert until two things happen. One, you recognize that you know so little compared to what's out there. And then the second one is, you do not become an expert unless you're willing to take feedback and learn from it and adjust accordingly. You don't need to adjust to all feedback, but you need to adjust to the stuff that affects your business. Bottom line.
This makes me think of a hot topic, actually, that's come up with a couple of clients recently, and it revolves around social media and the constant feedback loop. And it's taken two different completely different flavors from different clients. One camp is basically, I love the feedback loop of social media, and the other one is, I don't want to be on social media because I don't like the feedback loop. And it has opened up a really interesting concept to me of when we put things out on social media, are we getting true feedback? Is it valuable? How can we make it more valuable? How do we sort through and quantify and qualify the feedback that comes back through social media specifically? Because I think about asking on survey forms, which I'm kind of guessing is what you're saying. Like, you do a workshop and you give a survey form, people give a certain type of feedback there, or if they leave a review, a Google review, things like that, that's great feedback to have. But then there's this feedback that happens almost like we're asking, but we're not asking by the comments section or I got a lot of thumbs up on that. So does that mean that's a good direction to go? And so it's been an interesting thing to sort through. And on top of it, there's definitely a fear for some business owners of putting too much out there or I don't want to reveal something, or they're just afraid of lashback on things. So this is an interesting thing. I don't have necessarily answers for it. It's just something that's been coming up lately.
Well, you know that I have been inspired by your social media talk that you gave at the same event that I spoke at, right? And how you were talking about everything you put is purposeful. And so now I'm going to sound like a little bit of a stalker because I look at everything that you post, right, and I read the whole thing from start to finish, and I was like, even go so far as, like, how did that make me feel? Or I wonder what she was trying to do here, because that was such a valid point that you made about make sure that your social media posts add, not subtract to the conversation, right? That has a point no matter what that point is, as long as it's a positive one. And so I think for social media, I think business owners need to figure out what's the purpose is. It to inform, is it to entertain, is it to sell? And then when it comes to the feedback loop that you're talking about, I really use social media to find more fans and to test out messages. So, for example, I did something, and this was not on The Work Warrior. This was on the Marianne Private stuff, like my private Facebook and Instagram and all. But I did this four days of decluttering and cleaning my house and getting ready for the holidays or getting ready for the new Year. And I love Feng shui. And feng shui is something that I could talk about till the cows come home. And I heard so many people talking about how 2022 was so hard and they were just ready for a new start, that I was like, you know what? I'm going to do this.
Yeah.
And it felt super uncomfortable because I don't usually talk about feng shui. Like, feng shui is the exact opposite of manager training, just so you know. Like, it's the exact opposite, right? Not even in the same camp and doing that. And it was interesting to me because while it was not, quote unquote, business building, it was so interesting and exciting to see the people that responded that don't usually respond to my stuff. And so if people started using social business owners in particular started using social media as what gets responses? Who cares? Okay. I guess if everybody gives a negative response, then, okay, you probably want to check that. But what's getting responses? Is it the long posts that are personal stories? Do those get responses and shares? When you post something about a product, are people actually engaging on that platform, or is that to be better on LinkedIn? I do much better selling on LinkedIn than I do on Facebook, just because of the nature of what I do. And so really start to be saying, what's the purpose? And then honor that purpose. When you post, don't get upset if you're like, hey, I'm going to post this thing about my workbook and see if I can sell 15 copies and then I sell zero, and then I get all angry and mad and sad and pouty because it didn't sell. Okay, well, the goal was to see if I could now, you know, it didn't. So what are you going to do to flip that up to actually get the results that you want? We take everything so personally. We got to stop taking it personally.
That, I think, is so true, and for so many business owners, that's definitely true when it comes to their social media, because they maybe worked through the fear of, I'm going to put myself out there, Marianne. Like, I did it, I got vulnerable, and now I'm getting these sad faces. And so I think there is again, I like this idea of not avoiding fearful moments, not avoiding how that feels, but flipping it and going instead of crying in my cheerios now or saying, social media doesn't work.
I hear that a lot.
Social media doesn't work for me. Well, it just didn't work for me. No, it totally worked for you. It told you exactly what you need to know.
It did.
It worked great.
It worked great. It told you exactly what you need to know. And I'm talking for small business owners, right? But like, oh, I'm going to do a public service announcement for social media in just a second, just so you know. Perfect. But I think that what we need to start doing with social media is, like, particularly for small business owners, we don't need 15,000 followers, right? So who is your niche? Who are those raving fans who are the ones that consistently engage and then be working with them to put more content out? Because those are the people that are going to buy from you. And I think that if we stopped looking at everything as a numbers game, but rather as, like, the quality game, then how much better is that when it comes to actually judging social media? I've seen people have 15,000 followers and two likes, either, actually. There's nothing like that, right. They're not putting out engaging quality. But, yeah, I've seen people I have no followers okay. Like, I have like 650, right? Like, we are not in a world of huge out there, but I can also have 650 followers and have things that have 50 likes and comments and engagements and shares, right? So, like, what's the quality over quantity? And here's going to be my public service announcement. If you are in a group, if you own a group, do not, and I repeat, do not use the at, everyone.
Oh, my gosh, it's been driving me so crazy.
I leave the group and I have left six groups in a week because they'll be like, at everyone. And I'm like, if you are it's.
Like a trend right now.
Going to get so angry. Like, I'm just going to let you know. You might have to edit this out.
Sorry, guys, we just have to go on this tangent.
We do have to go on this tangent. If you do not care enough about me and the content that you create to tag me specifically because you want me to see it, then I do not care one bit about your content, period. And it broke my heart because there was one person that I love her stuff, and she did it the first time. And I said, you know, we're going.
To give her a pass because it's a trend range.
Because it's a trend. She did it a second and I'm like, no, I don't, because if I cared enough about your stuff, I would be looking for it anyway. So don't. Don't do it. It makes me angry. Don't do it.
It's so funny you bring this up because it has been happening so much more in my own and it bothers me too. And I'm like, okay, because I'm with you. I feel like, really, is this piece of content truly for everyone? And I've thought about that and I've looked at a couple of them. Now, I don't look at them at all, but at first I thought with this, okay, what's the purpose of this? And here's what I can see using it for. Hey, everyone, wanted to let you know I've passed away.
Right.
I'm not going to be here anymore.
Correct?
Right. Or hey, everyone needed you to know this group is going away.
Absolutely.
Things like that. But hey, everyone, I wanted to let you know I just released my latest workbook. Love, Mary Ann.
No.
In fact, if you were feeling fearful about that and you're trying it in order to get past fear, don't do it. You're given one pass. No. Marian says no.
No, absolutely not. This is the last I'm going to say about it. It made me so angry that I started to write a Facebook post about it. Oh, gosh on Christmas Eve. And I'm like, no.
Are you adding to the world?
Me? I am, because if these people want to continue to have followers but I was not. I'm like, this is supposed to be joyful. This is supposed to be a joyful time where we celebrate. Jesus, do not put your post about there about the everyone.
And then I was worried because everyone merry Christmas.
Don't do that again.
Right.
So I haven't posted it. I just left the group and so.
On and oh, my gosh, I love it. I love where these conversations go, but I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, don't do it. It's a thing. Okay, totally different topic. But you had mentioned this before we got on, and I wanted to talk about this so bad because this is one of the things that I like to talk about. You had put, and I'm going to quote this, there is a sea of money to be made. You simply need to be able to see it. And this is like, I saw that and I was like, glitter. This is why Marion and I get along so well. We have very different personalities, actually.
Now.
We do, like, energy levels, things like that, very different. But we can connect on so many things because you see money everywhere, too.
You see money everywhere.
It's so true. And this is a huge fear, and frankly, this is a fear of mine. And I've trained myself to see money everywhere, but I do not naturally see money everywhere. I have a deep-rooted scarcity mindset at my core, and maybe everybody does, but for me, it is something I have worked on. And now people are like, what? You? No way. And I'm like, yes, this is a trained thing now of not having a scarcity mindset, but boy, that monster flares up. And then I remind myself there is a sea of money to be made.
You just have to see it.
Just have to see it. Talk to me about that, because that money, frankly, and maybe it's just me, but it is a huge fear. I feel like it is a driving fear. It is that fear of failure. I'm going to fail well.
And I think that this is something that I'm trying to think if there's a really good book on abundance mindset. There is. In fact, when I get home, I will text it. It's the only one that I found that I really like. But the reason that I'm saying that is because I think it's such a huge topic. It's really, really hard to unpack in a situation because things that are deeply rooted in us usually stem from childhood. And those are really, really difficult to unpack with somebody that's not a therapist.
You're saying get a therapist, which is a good thing. I'm pro therapy.
I'm so pro therapy. In fact, I need to text my therapist and see if I can make an appointment on January 13. You're welcome for that personal information out there, everybody. But here's the thing. If people could start getting excited about possibility and asking questions to the right people of how do I do that? That's when they can start to see the money everywhere. So, for example, there is a very specific kind of client that I want more of. And I'm like, okay, so if I want more of this client, this type of client, who do I need to talk to? And I identified that person and have it on my agenda this week to say, hey, Serena, this is what I want. What do you need from me to make that happen? Do you need me to get more certifications? Do you need me to update my profile? Do you need me to do this? Do you need me to do that? And then you get direction. And whatever those people that can give you the money tell you to do, you go do it. Right? And we think that it's like this. I don't know how to make money. Well, okay, if somebody purchased ten of your workbooks, go ask them why they purchased ten of their workbooks and who else would like to purchase them. If you want to go on podcasts, put it out on LinkedIn or any social media platform that says, it is my goal to get on five podcasts. Who can help me? And if nobody responds, you know what I want you to do? Ask again. Hey, I know you all know people who can help me get on podcasts. And I think that if we ask who can help us, who can show us the money, then ask us how to see it, how to get it. It's simple. It is not easy. It is not easy, but it is simple.
Yeah. And that is definitely one of the biggest things that I have learned as well, is simply ask if I want to know why they didn't hire me. Ask them if I want to know why they would hire me or what would make them hire me. Ask them. And it makes such a difference. And it's so interesting to how much people want to help. They want to give you money.
They do.
They want to write you a check. If you can solve that problem for them, they want to write you a check.
Well, how about you? Like, you had said something that was really interesting. And I think for all you newbies, these are going to be the new entrepreneurs. I'm going to challenge you to ask ten people what you do. Let's make sure you have a clear understanding. Let's make sure that your audience has a clear understanding of what you do. And I remember I asked hopefully I've solved this problem, although I'm not sure I have. It was a couple of years ago and I had asked people, when they think of Mary Anne, what do they think of? And they were like, I think of glitter and travel and golden doodle. And I'm like, okay, do you think of me as a business owner? And they're like, no, oh, wow. And I'm like, problem, right? So problem number one is when people think of me, they didn't think of me as a business owner, which is bad. Business owners out there, that is bad. At least one of the things that they think of. But then when I took it a step further and say, well, what do I do? They were like, training of sorts, right? Like, oh, you don't even know what I do. So let's back this train right on up and make sure that people have a clear understanding of what you do so that they at least if they can't write a check to you because you don't do services they need, they know who they can refer to you to write that check.
Yes. I just listened to a chapter in a book called Brag, and it has a tag title to it. Brag. How to toot your own horn without blowing it. Peggy and I'm not 100% how to say her Last name Klause, I think.
Is it good?
It's good. I love it. In fact, I sent her a message the other day to see if she'd be on the podcast. And I don't know. I haven't heard anything back. And just to put it out there, so you guys all know that I'm human still, I sent the message before I finished the message and then had to send a part too. So, Peggy, if you're listening, I'd really like feedback on the podcast. But the point was, part of this chapter she talked about was make dang sure that the people in your life know what you do and how to introduce you and how to talk about you. And it's so often like the example she used, it was a husband introducing his wife, if I remember correctly, the story she told in the book. And she wanted to be an author. She was an accomplished writer, had done all these amazing things, and he introduced her as having, like, written something for a local laundromat and something else. And it was like her one chance in front of this publisher, et cetera, et cetera. And so I'm kind of paraphrasing the story a bit, but it was a good reminder. And it's exactly what you're talking about of don't be afraid to tell people what you do and how you want them to talk about you to the people around you they don't know until you tell them.
Exactly.
So how did you combat that? What did you do?
Okay, well, the first thing that I did and this is so much harder, like, for those that know me, this was so much harder to do than I realized. My biggest struggle was sticking to one message. Like, I would be like, okay, I do manager training. Then I'm like, no, I'm going to go and do personal coaching. Then it's like, no, I'm going to go and get certified in feng shui, and I'm going. To teach people how to change dogs in feng shui. And so for the longest time, the Work Warrior message was so jumbled up, and it was probably about three years ago that I was like, Stop, stop. You have worked so hard for Work Warrior to be known as training. Like, even if there's nothing else, other products for training that you need to stick with that. And by making my brand so clean when it comes to what I offered, that helped tremendously. And of course, I'll do the personal Happy Christmas posts or Happy Holidays post.
Right.
But if you go back and you look at the Work Warrior Facebook page versus the Mary Marianne Chance page, there's some crossover of Work Warrior onto Mary Marianne Chance, but there is no crossover from Marianne Chance to Work Warrior. It has to be that clean. And I would tell everybody to do that. Don't play with your brand. Like, be crystal clear on what it is. That doesn't mean that you can't expand, but you need to expand, like, two degrees from your original product. Not, I do manager training and can feng shui your house. Like, no, it's not even a thing. So that's how I combat it was just let's get crystal clear on what it is that I offer under this. I love that.
I'm curious in thinking about all these things you've learned over the years, not many years, because we're not that old yet, but if you were to go back and talk to a younger version of yourself, maybe teenage ish or young adultish, what are some of the lessons you would want to tell that woman?
I think there's only one that comes to mind. There's only one. And I think that I would tell my 22 and a half year old recent graduate self to move. That's what I would say.
Like, physically move.
Physically move out of the Kansas City area to some place that it would have been Washington, DC. At the time. That's what I would have said. I don't want to say that's the only lesson I've learned that my younger self couldn't benefit from. But when I think about things I wish I would have done, that is the only thing that consistently comes up is what would my life look like? And I have a great life, but what would it look like if I wouldn't have been scared at 22 and think my $2,500 worth of debt $2,500 right. Was just world stopping when you're 22, right?
Yeah.
Oh, how am I ever going to pay? That what you call it's. You know, you ask your parents or you get a second job. Like, there's multiple ways to do that. So that's it. That's the only thing I tell myself, move, take a risk.
Isn't it interesting? Full circle back around to that fear that set in and the stories you told yourself. And then now when you look at it, you're like, that's not what I've proven to myself over and over again. There's multiple ways to do this. This is not the only way. All those things you're talking about and I think about that of make a move. I think for a lot of people, whether that's moving away or just make the move, if you want to start that dang business, do it. Start the business.
You want to go for the promotion, do it. You want to try your hand at learning a new skill, do it. Yeah, I think so. Yes. Well, that's a beautiful way to come, that full circle, right? Just talk about making the move. Just make the move in general, whether it's a physical location move.
It's so crazy because you do look back and you're like, that wasn't as scary as I thought.
It's never as scary as we think.
Yeah.
Like, very few things are actually as scary as we think. And the only things that I think are as scary as we think are things like jumping out of an airplane or bungee jump or something that if it broke our lives, we could die. Right. To me, that's the only thing that should actually as scary as we think it could be. And it's probably even not. See, I'm probably even wrong with that.
But when you jump out of a plane, you'll come back here and let us know.
I'm not going to jump out of a plane. I have no interest in that. This is funny. Of the things that we don't have interest in. Oh, what was it? I remember somebody was like and they were pushing this hard, but for some reason, and I can't even remember who it was, but they were going to, like, a week long silent retreat. And I was like, oh, interesting. Yeah. And I was like, I don't think I want to do that. And they were like, what? You just don't take risks. You don't try new things. And I'm like, I try plenty of new things. And I also know what I don't want to do, and I don't want to do that. So there you go. I think also part of that, I think, too, is you can't if there's something that you genuinely don't want to do, like, don't do it because you heard a podcast on fear, and you're like, oh, I bet that's fear, like, no, if you don't want to do something, just don't do it.
Interesting. That's good. That's a good thought.
Yeah.
All right. Wrapping us up for today, although we could clearly talk for a while, I think we're going to turn this into, like, a three, four hour long podcast in the future, just so you know.
Oh, good. Then invite me back for that.
Perfect. What do you think would make the world a better place?
I will tell you what just immediately popped up into my mind. And so you had sent a pre questionnaire before this. And I had said, could you say, is there something you're on fire about right now? And I had said I'm on fire about how right now we need less visionary leaders and more managers that are learners and doers. And so I am actually going to bring back my what would make the world a better place right now to my original business and purpose. And that is I don't think that we realize the impact that managers have on the world because almost not all, but almost every human has one. And when we have people in the workplace that are intentional about recognizing that the pandemic fundamentally changed us as humans and the way that we work and that managers now have a new calling and that is to create psychologically safe workplaces where people can bring their emotion to the table. Because this whole leave it at the door completely and utterly went out the window as soon as we brought work into our homes. Right? That completely went out the window. And the fact that 63% of humans deal with some type of anxiety, our managers need to be recognizing that and figuring out structures to allow humans to thrive even in the middle of all of the chaos. It's not going away. Have you bought milk lately? Can we just get angry for just a second over the price of milk? By the way, Target has much better prices, but that's a whole other topic. But anyhow, it is that recognizing that our people are going through a lot, as are we, so we need to take care of ourselves. But really say, I am going to do those that are in leadership positions, manager positions, going and saying, I am going to do my very, very best to make this the safest and healthiest place for my employees, knowing that that environment that you create might be the safest place in their whole world.
I love that.
Yes.
There you go. And it's one of the reasons I love owning a business is because you're a leader to the people that you're managing employees, even if they're contractors, vendors or your clients, you have a huge impact on their lives. Yes, you do.
Yeah, you do. You get to decide the culture of what it looks like to work with you and they will either want to be a part of that culture or not.
So speaking of being parts of culture yes. If somebody wants to get into your world, be part of your world and culture, how can they do that? What's the best way for people to connect with you if they have questions or just want to be in your sphere?
I'm going to say social media is probably the easiest. And if you just go to Work warrior.com on top of all of my pages, there is like when I get to know everything WorkWriter, click here and you can choose which ones you want to do if you want, Facebook is probably the one that I'm most active on. And then there's a contact me on.
The workwarrior page, but awesome.
Yeah.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing, especially on a topic that can be, frankly, a little scary.
Hey, very welcome. Thank you for inviting me. This is a very fun way to start out my 2023.
Absolutely. All right. We'll be watching for the rest of the podcast that you're on to.
Awesome.
.