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Unashamed Unafraid is a show dedicated to being unashamed about sexual addiction recovery and unafraid of coming unto Christ for healing. Pornography and sexual addiction are not something you are stuck with to manage your whole life. We share real stories of recovery, the best resources, information from experts, and answer anonymous questions with those who know. All to help you on the path of being 100% healed from pornography and sexual addiction.
Speaker 17: Tryna walk the walk.
Truth on the mic, no shame
here, just real talk.
Came from the outside, never fit in.
Now we tell the story
and the healing begins.
No front, no mask, just telling the truth.
Keep it real, keep it raw,
speaking straight from the booth.
If you feeling like an
outsider, this one's for you.
Uh.
Yeah
Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode
of Unashamed Unafraid, a showâ¦
What is this about?
Speaker: Unashamed- Unashamed ⦠of
sexual addiction recovery Unashamed
Speaker 2: Recovery and not afraid of
Speaker 4: coming unto Christ for healing.
What is this about?
What are we doing here?
Sam just had a stroke, everyone
hey,
Sam, let me
Speaker 2: beautiful.
I don't know if I've ever messed
up that badly on the intro before.
Leave it in.
Mine was like- Leave it all in ⦠mine
was about I forgot which podcast I hosted.
something that was really cool,
and I just wanna shout
you out for this, Austin.
, Like two months ago or
a month and a half ago,
you reached out to me, like the first
time you relapsed after seven months.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Sam: And I remember
just thinking that day,
wow, that is an unbelievable amount of
courage from my friend- Yeah ⦠to
reach out after seven months,
Speaker 2: like,
" " Sam: Hey, man, I'm struggling
again, just so you know.
" just wanted to shout you
out for that bravery.
It's easy to justify choosing
to stay silent I like the word
that you've used before, Austin.
It's kinda like this noble lie, mm-hmm.
The noble lie.
I'm just trying to protect
my spouse or whatever it is.
You can, you can argue
any number of reasons
but at the end of the
day, covering our sins
It just hurts more.
It just causes more pain.
And it does, hurt, for sure,
to be honest, but it's a kind
of pain that you can manage..
Lying is unmanageable pain.
It
Speaker: doesn't fester-
Speaker 2: Yeah
⦠Speaker: like the lie.
Sam: It's kinda like that, y- I
mean, that episode, of VeggieTales
with the fib and Larry Boy.
yeah.
Ah,
Speaker 4: yes.
Speaker 2: He just keeps
getting bigger and bigger.
You didn't see that growing up, Chris?
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: You're too old.
You- Veggie, VeggieTales was
like a '90s kids thing, 2000s.
I'm,
Speaker 4: I'm thinking of,
Daddy Day Camp with, Eddie Murphy
and- You cannot be further off.
And they come down with the veggies.
That's very different.
Daddy Daycare?
They come downâ¦
Yeah, Daycare.
Oh, that's awesome.
Just shows how much older I am.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: You guys are like,
" Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that."
So if any of you, like Chris, aren't
familiar- ⦠with that episode or the,
the, the show, there's this alien squash,
Speaker 3: we'll call it.
This is, this is Bible stories
told through animated vegetables.
I
Sam: love it.
This is so awesome.
This is, VeggieTales is a show
This is- Are you for real?
I had no idea that's what it's about.
Yeah, this- Okay
this isn't actually a Bible story, though.
This is just kind of like,
it teaches a principle.
Yeah.
Don't lie.
And so, the little asparagus kid at
the beginning breaks his dad's bowling
plate And so this little alien squash-
Squash called a fib convinces him to
lie and he lies to his dad about it.
And every time he lies
the fib gets bigger.
And then he keeps telling lies over the
course of the episode to cover himself,
and the fib just gets bigger and bigger
and bigger and bigger until it's,
massive and destroying the town and-
Then he finally tells the
truth and the fib shrinks.
But, as childish as that
is Sounds like Pinocchio.
You guys, have you guys ever heard of
Pinocchio?
He tells a lie and his nose
keeps getting bigger and bigger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I, I, he's
a character in Shrek, isn't he?
He's in Shrek, yeah.
Is he not?
That one in Shrek.
I'm a
Speaker 2: real boy.
Oh, I love that movie.
That is so fun.
Pinocchio.
Speaker: It's pretty funny.
Sam (2): As, as, as childish as that is,,
Speaker 2: it's an effective way
Sam (2): that's actually
what happens when you lie.
Speaker 4: Totally.
Sam: And the web of lies leaves this wake
of destruction behind you, and it festers.
It's not the kinda pain
that you can manage.
Speaker 4: Yeah, 'cause , then
you start lying about things
you don't need to lie about.
Yeah.
Sam: I was doing that all the time.
Oh, totally.
Yeah, I was that way.
Any time my mom would ask me anything, I
got so good at it in case she might get
upset, and I got away with it every time
.
So you get used to it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Speaker 2: That's why we lie.
It, we, if if it wasn't
safe to be honest, of
Speaker 4: That's why when I was
starting to do recovery, I had to
learn how to be honest, because
I had lied my whole life- Totally
since I was a little kid.
You gotta rewire your brain.
I had lied and lied and lied,
and so that, like, my wife had
a hard time understanding, "Why
is he lying about stupid stuff?"
It's because I don't know any different.
I've lied about everything for so long.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I have to
learn how to be honest.
That was new for me.
Speaker 2: When did you learn that
you had to lie in order to stay safe?
Speaker 4: I was probably,
like, five or six years old-
Speaker 2: Hmm
⦠Speaker 4: when there were some
things happening with neighbor
kids playing spin the bottle as a
little kid, and just horrible things
happening, and just lying about it.
Sam: And that's the compassionate part.
Like, yes, of course, of course
you're lying because You've never
felt safe telling the truth.
but at the same time I think this is
kinda the noble lie you're talking about,
if I can just lie long enough that I can
go take care of this by myself so it's
all done and through, and I don't talk
to anyone about it, then I'll be okay.
I can skip the confession to the bishop.
I'll never have to tell my wife.
I'll just be done with
it, and I can move on.
Speaker 4: Totally.
Speaker 2: And that just doesn't work.
You cannot recover without transparency,
It Will haunt you.
Speaker: It does.
Sam: Yeah.
Yeah.
So you can'tâ¦
you can in very rare
cases can become sober.
But, you're never gonna be-
Yeah ⦠in recovery, right?
It's just looming- You'll
Speaker: just be wa- white
knuckling ⦠in the back of your mind.
Anytime you're in the car or by- Yeah
⦠yourself, that's, that's what comes back.
Speaker 2: So what are your
thoughts on this, Austin?
'Cause we, I mean, this was kinda your
idea, I love the idea of the noble lie.
Yeah.
There's nothing noble about that lie.
Speaker 3: My wife is the baby in
her family, , and I think this is
common with the babies of the family.
But when she was in her 20s, she came
to realize that there were a lot of,,
skeletons in the closet, with her
family that she was not aware of.
And, you know, they were just like, "No,
we weren't hiding these things from you.
You were just a baby
when it happened, so,.
like, we don't wanna
bring this up again right.
You know, that kinda thing.
But it caused her to have
this very, intense, pursuit
of living in a true reality.
Speaker 4: Hmm.
Speaker 3: So when I would come to
her and say, "Hey, I relapsed," and
if it was in, the agreed-upon 24-hour
window , she never reacted poorly.
She was always very calm,
always, like, very supportive,
said, "I'll be here for you.
I'm helping you."
You know, like, "What do we need to do?
What happened?"
You know.
Speaker 2: Not that all women can do that.
Speaker 3: No, no, no,
but- No, that's rare,
Speaker: I
Speaker 2: think
⦠Speaker 3: but when I would go
on these binges for a long time
and then come to her, that is
when the betrayal would set in.
Yeah, totally.
That is when these thingsâ¦
Because for her, she would say,
like, "You have caused me to live
in a reality that is not true."
And then it causes her
to question everything.
Totally.
Like, "Is he lying about this?
Is he lying about that?"
Totally.
Like, "What else, what
else is he hiding from me?"
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: And, you know-
Speaker 4: There's always
that question, right?
Yeah.
What
Speaker 3: else
Speaker 4: is-
Speaker 3: Yeah.
And so in my brain, why I'd go that
long is because I'd be like, "Oh,
well, I'm actually, I'm protecting her
'Cause if I tell her, it's gonna hurt
her, and I love her so much- ⦠that I'm
not going to hurt her by telling her."
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's like, that's the mindset, and I'm,
I know I'm not the only one because I've
had so many conversations with other men.
No, I mean, we laugh,
Speaker 2: but it's- And, and if you
could, if you could speak to your, prior
self or to someone who's struggling
with a similar lie, what would you say?
Speaker 3: If I could have a conversation
with myself even a year ago, I'd say the
realization that I have is you need to own
your mistakes, or your shame will own you.
Speaker 4: Hmm.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: And-
Speaker 4: Love that
⦠Speaker 3: it devoured me, and
you know, it caused all these
problems in my marriage and
caused all these, trust issues.
Speaker 4: Well, think about it.
It changes the way that you
show up because you're living
in this lie, and you're, you're-
Yeah ⦠it's constantly there.
Yeah.
Going, "What if she finds out?"
And you know it's there.
Yeah.
Speaker: Do you remember Ian and
Nicole's episode, when she talked
about when her husband would relapse,
and you guys asked her straight out,
you're like, "Does it hurt you?"
'Cause she kinda had these hints
throughout the whole thing that
it doesn't bother her at all.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: And so finally you straight
out asked her, you're like, "Does
it hurt you when he relapses?"
And she said, " what hurts
are the symptoms afterwards."
Speaker 2: Mm.
Yeah.
" Speaker: It's the behavior that
he has towards me and our kids."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Sam: It's all of the results
of acting out that hurts.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
It is.,
Sister's ex-husband was like a master
class in how to not do recovery, right?
And my sister would always say- I didn't
get divorced because of the pornography.
I got divorced because no matter
how hard I tried, I could never
get the honest truth out of him.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Sam: Yeah.
Women are amazing creatures.
Oh.
They can deal with unbelievably high
levels of pain and betrayal, but
only if they have the truth, and I
have heard so many women say that.
Yeah.
Not that every addict is a man and every
spouse of an, of an addict is a woman but-
I just find that to be kind of the key.
Like, if you, if you can be transparent,
not just with acting out, but with
your emotions and with the parts of
yourself that are a little ugly and
you don't wanna show to other people.
If you can bring it all that is
like the portal that you have to go
through in order to find recovery.
Speaker 4: If you guys listen to
my episode, Autumn even says, "I
can handle the biggest, hardest
truth over the littlest lie."
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And that always stuck with me.
And I'm like, "That totally makes
sense," because that's why I was in
this predicament for a long time,
is 'cause I kept lying about stuff.
Yeah.
Kept lying about stuff, and then
I'd get caught, and then I'd getâ¦
You know?
And I'm like, "I just need to learn how
to be honest," regardless of what her
reaction was, because that was truly
the kind thing that I was doing, is now
knowing the truth, she can then make
a decision how she wants to show up.
Sometimes my wife was like your wife,
and she would show up and just be
freaking amazing And other times she was
pissed and angry, and she was yelling
and regardless, I was like, " I
still gotta tell her because-
this just isn't working anymore."
Yeah.
Speaker: It's rare to be able to
use your wife as an accountability
partner, but that doesn't mean
that you shouldn't disclose to her.
And something that has been helpful for
me is my wife is always the second person
I talk to- Hmm ⦠after a relapse.
First I call a brother.
Yeah.
I get re-centered back on the recovery
train, back to a place where I know my
worth, and then I can come to my wife.
And no matter how she responds,
if she responds well, great.
If she responds negatively and
there's a lot of yelling, I
have already, found my center.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But that only has ever worked
for me if I first talked to a brother
Speaker 2: it's really hard to
come to your spouse in your shame.
Speaker 4: That's why it's Super important
to, to reach out in brotherhood , I
love that you do that before you go to
her so that you can actually be in a
place where you're managing that shame
. You can talk through that with your
brother and be like, "Dude, this is,
man, this is what I'm feeling, and I feel
like crap and I hate myself right now,"
or whatever's going through your head.
And he can walk you through that so
that when you show up, you're showing
up in the fact, "Hey, I acted out."
You're not making excuses.
You're not saying, "Oh, it's
because we didn't have sex.
It's because I got stressed
at work," or whatever.
Yeah.
No, you're taking accountability
because that's the fact.
The fact is, is that I acted out, period.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: This is the way I acted out.
I acted out through porn.
I acted out through a chat room.
Whatever it is.
You're naming the fact,
not making excuses.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Because you're
not doing it in shame.
Cause there, there are some situations
where we've been with clients where
it isn't safe for them to go to
their spouse because she doesn't
know how to regulate herself.
And so she shames him, comes at him, says
he's a piece of crap, whatever it is.
That is not gonna be beneficial to the
relationship at all, to either party.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The betrayed spouse will need
to be able to learn how to regulate their
own emotions, and that's where Autumn
got to where she would, she'd be like,
"I am so pissed off with you right now.
I don't wanna be around you,
and I need to go and regulate."
So she would tell me that, and
I'm like, "Go do your thing."
Chris, can you diveâ¦
'Cause this is a question
I've had in recovery for
Speaker 2: so long, ' Whether
or not you want to, your spouse
deserves to know the honest truth
because it affects them, right?
Like, they have to know- Totally ⦠who
you are and the choices you've made to
the extent that it impacts their life.
And any sexual behavior outside of
the marriage impacts your spouse.
So how do you handle that as a coach
when-- And I know there's men out there
who are thinking this right now, like-
Speaker: "I'm the exception."
Yeah.
" It's me.
I don't have to tell her."
Speaker 2: That's why I want
you to talk about this, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Because just 'cause you feel
unsafe doesn't mean she's being unsafe,
Speaker 4: totally.
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Am I, am I hitting that on the- It's
a, it's a rare occasion, for sure.
Okay.
Speaker 2: All
Speaker 4: right.
And, and then, and then it's
not always gonna be like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: It'll come back to where
they can still be able to share that.
Okay.
But it's more in a
healthy- I see ⦠healthy
, Speaker 2: And so just to be very
crystal clear on that, that situation
would, like, necessitate, like, "Hey,
we need to go get professional help
to make this decision together."
Speaker 4: Right.
Sam: Because if he's just making
that decision on his own, to stop
disclosure because he doesn't feel safe,
Speaker 4: you're just making
excuses for you to not tell
Speaker 2: her.
If Iâ¦
Oh, totally, totally.
Yeah.
I think when you get
further into recovery,
Sam: you will want to
have the accountability.
Speaker 2: My wife right
now, she doesn't wanna know.
She's like, "No, I'm pregnant.
I don't wanna deal with it.
And I'm like, "No, no, no,
babe, I want you involved."
- She's like, I don't
want to know right now.
For me, this is not what I need."
Speaker 4: And then she can
come to you and be like-
Speaker 2: Yes ⦠"How is things going?"
When
Speaker 4: she's ready.
Right.
But That's why it's super healthy
for you to go to brothers.
Sam: Yes, and that's why i think
If you're doing it right- ⦠and
you're free of shame, you will
want to have the accountability.
Right.
So it won't be about like,
"How much can I get away with?"
It'll be "Can we partner on
this together fully, 100%?"
Because that's where- Totally ⦠couples
take off, and I feel like that's
happened to me and my wife right now.
Speaker 2: Like, we are totally different.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say,
If you were going to your wife, , you're
probably gonna feel shame, but that
doesn't mean that she's shaming you.
So I want to read that- Mm
that Brene Brown quote.
Yeah.
Because I think that just really
nails it to be like, "Well, I
don't want to go to her because
she's shaming me all the time."
Is it because she's shaming you or
is it because you're, feeling shame?
'Cause you might just be feeling shame.
Yeah.
And so Brene Brown, who is, very
much knowledgeable of shame- She's,
Speaker 2: she's the world-
She's the world shame expert.
Speaker 4: Right.
She is absolutely amazing.
And so in her book, Atlas of the
Heart, Brene Brown says, "When you
hold someone accountable for hurtful
behaviors and they feel shame, that's
not the same as shaming someone.
"I am responsible for
holding you accountable in a
respectful and productive way.
I am not responsible for your emotional
reaction to that accountability."
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: I have a lot of clients
that are like, "She's shaming me."
I'm like, "Well, what
does that look like?"
And they're like, "Well, she gets super
mad and, and she's upset with me."
"And wh- what is she saying to you?"
And they'll say something stupid, and
I'm like, "Well, that's not shaming you.
You're just feeling shame."
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
And they're like, "What?"
I'm like, "Yeah, you're feeling
shame because you acted out."
Yeah.
"And you're now having to come
and talk to your wife about it,
Speaker: I can't remember who it
was who was being interviewed.
Maybe it was Doug.
But it was on one of the episodes
where he talked about when the
disclosure moment happens, his focus
shifts from the man to the woman.
Mm.
Because all the weight, you're talking
about how you want to disclose-
Speaker 4: Yeah
⦠' Speaker: cause it's a relief for you.
Totally.
The weight is lifted.
Speaker 4: Totally.
Speaker: But all the weight
gets placed on the spouse.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Yeah.
So when I do a disclosure with
couples, we'll obviously we'll work
through disclosure and everything,
and then we're like, "What does
disclosure look like from here?"
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 4: What are you
wanting them to disclose?
How often?
What does that look like?,
And we nail it down.
Like, this is the fact.
It's an actual worksheet that I've created
to help them see this is what it is.
This is How I acted out . So that way
there's no question "Well, I di- I didn't
know I was supposed to disclose that."
No, it's written.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Sam: We understand from this point
on- Mm ⦠this is what disclosure is.
Yeah.
You are both agreeing to it knowing
this is what needs to be disclosed- Yeah
⦠and what does not need to be disclosed.
a final piece of this that I
think really needs to be discussed
to help men feel compassion for
themselves is why are we dishonest?
The reason why you're being dishonest
is 'cause you don't feel safe Yeah.
That, that
Speaker 4: is like- That's
Speaker: it.
The
Speaker 2: idea of it
being a noble lie is like-
Speaker 4: 99.99%
of the time- Yeah ⦠the
reason why you're not being
Speaker 2: honest is
because you feel unsafe.
I've never heard someone, yeah, I've
never heard someone explain a reason for
lying that wasn't in some way, shape, or
form, "I didn't f- I didn't feel safe."
That's what it is.
And as long as you continue to feel
unsafe, you will continue to lie.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: You will.
You will.
So the key to all of this is like,
what's deeper than the lying is I'm
stuck in shame and I don't feel safe.
So, what I'm learning, and the Unashamed
Unafraid guidebook preaches this to
a fault, , is like, "Okay, you're
responsible for creating your own safety.
How are you gonna do it?
" Speaker 4: mm.
Speaker 2: And if, you continue
to lie, I, I would ask you that
question , and I've had to ask myself
that question a lot of times, right?
Because my Wife's not responsible
for creating safety for me.
Speaker 4: Totally.
Speaker 2: So I, I feel
really strong about that.
I think because, that's a battle-tested
principle for me that unlocked something
in me when I finally realized, "Oh, I'm
just lying 'cause I don't feel safe."
When I feel safe, it's like,
"I'm not a bad person it
just means I don't feel safe.
Yeah.
So , I would issue that challenge to you.
If you're out there listening and you
just think, "I just can't stop lying
" well, that's 'cause you don't feel safe.
Go figure out why you don't
feel safe, and then take
responsibility for creating safety
Speaker: Which goes to say that
the idea of a noble lie is a lie.
Speaker 4: 100%.
Speaker: We're talking about lies here?
You're not doing it to
protect someone else, right?
Speaker 4: Gotcha.
Speaker: Exactly.
I Steven with T.
You're doing it, you're
doing it to protect yourself,
Speaker 2: word protect means you're
trying to keep something safe.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: And that's f-
a false sense of safety.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Send an email to me or
Chris, samchris@unashamedunafraid.com,
and just tell us, tell us a little bit of
story and help us understand what's going
on in your life that keeps you, , going
back to this, , quote, unquote "noble lie"
This is Unashamed Unafraid, so
let's be unashamed and unafraid
of the hard stuff in recovery.
Send us an email.
We wanna hear from you.
Speaker: Some of the most impactful
moments on the podcast were moments
where you or someone else, like, issued
a direct challenge to me as a listener.
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker: And at one point, you
were talking with Doug, and Doug
presented a challenge, and you
said, "I just want the listeners to
not, think, 'That's a great idea.
I'll do that later,' and
then just never do it."
So if you're a listener, pause it
right now and do it right now- Hmm
and then come finish it.
Yeah, love that.
And I did, and it was awesome.
Speaker 4: I think Sam nailed it.
He's like, "If you are scared to go and
be honest with somebody, and you wanna
create this noble lie-" be like, "Why?
What's wrong?
Where am I not feeling safe right now?"
Speaker 2: Mm.
" Speaker 4: Why am I not feeling safe
?" Speaker 2: You look at a child, right?
They don't hide anything.
They walk around naked.
They don't care.
They have no shame.
Shame is a social construct.
As soon as you get rid of the shame,
your behavior will fall in line,
that's- So that's the battle
⦠Speaker: that's why I never wear
clothes to these recordings.
Speaker 3: My shame is gone.
Speaker 2: I've always wondered.
It's been kind of uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: The one s- Now I know
why you guys have me sit next to
Speaker 3: this guy.
It's very, it's very healing to watch
Josh- ⦠go through this unashamed.
Speaker 4: He feels very safe here.
Very safe.
I,
Speaker: I don't now.
Don't let another episode start, or
a song play, or anything else happen
until you reach out to someone else
and start to, to practice this.
Sam: Josh, thank you for gracing
us- ⦠with your presence
today.
Oh, great.
Uh, guys, Guys, thanks For joining us.
You're part of the Unashamed,
Not Afraid community.
Thank you for being a part of what we
do, and for following us, on the podcast.
Speaker 2: We just wanna connect with you,
and we're glad that you like connecting
with us, so thanks for watching.
Sam: Find us on social
media @unashamednotafraid.
Get access to the bonus
content, become an outsider on
unashamednotafraid.com.
Remember to subscribe to our YouTube
channel, and if this was helpful
to you, it'll probably be helpful
to someone else, so take some time
right now and share it with a friend.
Thanks again for watching, and until
next time, continue to live unashamed.