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Dr. Ron Hall, professor and pastor, and Peter Englert, pastor, help you delve into 1 John. Understand the context and background while applying this practical book of the Bible to your life.
1 John - 4-7-12.m4a
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Peter Englert
00:00 - 00:47
Welcome to the Reading 1st John podcast. Today we are gonna be in 1st John 4, 7 through 12, and you know, Ron, usually the way we start is we read the passage and talk. What's interesting is when we talk about love in Christianity, I think there's this idea that it's soft and it's easy, and what our listeners don't know is You know, we we just talked about some fun situations, shall we say, of hurt and pain in our life from working in church and Christian context that, you know, the more you read a book like First John, the more you realize how hard it is to love people.
Peter Englert
00:48 - 01:09
And then I think on top of that, you realize how hard even it is not for God to love us. Maybe that's the way to say it, but you just kind of realize I'm not the easiest person to love. I don't know, just quick thoughts before we jump in. This is not flowery, marriage, wedding type.
Peter Englert
01:09 - 01:11
This is daily grind.
Ron Hall
01:11 - 01:37
Oh, and that's it. And you read 1 John, and if you're a person that's questioned whether or not you're saved, right with Jesus, you read 1 John, and then you're really saying, boy, am I really in the Lord or not? How can I say I love God that I've not seen if I can't love my brother whom I have seen? And you sent me a clip recently about the guy that he thought he was a Christian.
Ron Hall
01:37 - 01:51
He got to the end of the first John, and he has to question it. And for all of us processing this today, you're a believer. You wouldn't be devoting yourself to going through this process and loving God, but how can we do it so much better?
Peter Englert
01:53 - 02:20
Well, and even before we read it, if if you're an unbeliever and you're listening to this because, you know, at the time of this recording, Bible sales are up and you're just curious, I I think what you find is what God calls you to is not easy, but it's transformational. And I think that that's the power of this passage. So without further ado, we don't always give commentary like that, but let's read 1 John 4, 7-12.
Peter Englert
02:20 - 02:42
It says this, Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us. He sent his one and only son into the world that we might live through him.
Peter Englert
02:43 - 03:15
This is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. First thing I just kind of want to point out is, you know, one of the things you taught me as a professor is you look for repeated words.
Peter Englert
03:16 - 03:42
It love is approximately it's twenty eight times it's mentioned in First John. And I think what might be helpful is In the Greek world, there's three to four concepts for love, words. What is the concept or the word for love in 1 John that might be different than when we see it translated for love?
Ron Hall
03:44 - 04:00
Well, a lot of times it's derivatives that are used. And as I identify with you 28 times, the word love is used. And then you've got 18 corresponding nouns that are used. So when we think of love, normally we're thinking of agape.
Ron Hall
04:01 - 04:08
So there is the characteristic of God's overarching, all-powerful love that's here. Is that what you're thinking in terms of?
Peter Englert
04:09 - 04:28
Yeah, yeah. And just I mean, we say things like I love the cereal I have in the morning. I'm in love. You know, I'm in love with with this woman I just met, you know, the other day, all the way to, you know, you've been married to your wife for decades.
Peter Englert
04:28 - 04:51
I've been married to my wife now for over a decade. So we don't have like a span of, eighth grader infatuation, I'm in love with, you know, this girl to, hey, we've been married 5060 years kind of thing. So I think it's just helpful. What we're talking about, even with this reference is this is not a generic standard procedure.
Peter Englert
04:51 - 05:07
This is a deep, and even whatever words that's being used, you can even see in the translation, it's not easy. It's not just, I love you. It's, hey, we know people are going to be difficult, but God gave His Son and loved you, therefore we call you to love your brothers and sisters.
Ron Hall
05:07 - 05:29
Yeah, and this isn't romantic love. Some years ago, I wrote about whether romantic love was biblical for marriages, and I explored some new territory that I haven't seen written about before. And I do think there's a place for romantic love. And the mystery of a couple in love, Proverbs even refers to it.
Ron Hall
05:29 - 05:39
And so there is that romantic side. But this is nuts and bolts. This is the nitty gritty. This is love in action.
Ron Hall
05:40 - 05:52
The book of Mark is known as a book of the words and deeds of Jesus. Well, 1 John is the same way. It's the book of words and deeds. We don't just say it, but we do it.
Ron Hall
05:54 - 06:06
And that's reflected in the passenger. How can we say we love God that we have not seen if we can't love our brother whom we have seen? And the love is action. It's a verb.
Ron Hall
06:07 - 06:29
We've referred to this before. I love the way it's put in Ephesians chapter 4, verse 16, about the truthing. So, when we talk about truthing, and we dealt with this before, truth, people think in terms of a noun, but it's actually a verb. It's truthing, it's living it out, and that's what loving is in 1 John.
Ron Hall
06:30 - 06:47
It's living it out. Or, using chapter 1, walking in the light as he is in the light, it's an ongoing process, That's what this love is, it's an ongoing action. And there are difficult people to love, but nevertheless, John gives us the guide rails.
Peter Englert
06:49 - 07:08
So, um, one thing we're, you know, with this podcast and our show notes, we're going to post this there. We don't have time to do 15 characteristics of love you've outlined. I think it's really powerful. So we might touch on a few of those, but what I want to do is just, I want to jump into verse seven.
Peter Englert
07:08 - 07:42
Um, You know, and and just kind of talk about seven, three, the the motivation for loving, loving others comes from God. And for some of us, I think we kind of, maybe that goes over our head, we've heard it so many times, but, and for some of us, maybe this is the first time that we thought God actually loves us. So what do you think John is trying to logically draw us to, and maybe give us a vision of Christian community in these first two verses?
Ron Hall
07:43 - 08:09
Well, first of all, he wants to capture what our relationship is supposed to be with the Lord. Because without our receiving the love of God, it's impossible for us to love others the way that we should. So it's reciprocal. God has done for us, and in return gives us that empowerment for us then to extend it out.
Ron Hall
08:10 - 08:21
It's the old common analogy of the vertical and the horizontal. If the vertical doesn't come down from God above, then we're not going to be able to translate it into the horizontal.
Peter Englert
08:23 - 08:43
Hmm. Let me let me just bring up one thing, because I think sometimes in Christianity we vacillate. We say like self-help is all bad. And so we read this and, you know, in the Bible, it actually says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.
Peter Englert
08:44 - 09:25
So there's some people where we actually have to tell them you need to love yourself a little less tongue in cheek. And then there's other people where I think we, and this might be more psychological, which, you know, you have like a counseling background where you actually have to put yourself on the list of conscious relationships. Cause you project, where do you see that kind of fitting in? Cause again, if love comes from God and we can't receive it, we do have to kind of look at blockages because we could either maybe with not receiving love or loving ourselves, dare I say, it actually affects—we might become a doormat, or even worse than that, become a
Peter Englert
09:25 - 09:28
bully. How do you kind of translate that in your mind?
Ron Hall
09:31 - 10:14
Well, there are a few different angles. There's the story out of Luke chapter 7 of the sinful woman who comes to Jesus, and she's weeping, and with her hair She is washing the feet of Jesus. And the religious leaders, known as Pharisees then, are excoriating Jesus. You have no business allowing this sinful woman, it's the term in the Greek of a prostitute, So she's a loose woman with her morals, allowing this woman to touch you, especially wiping his feet.
Ron Hall
10:15 - 10:54
And he said, this woman, the reason she loves much is because she realizes the depth of what she has been forgiven. So our lack of love, when we look at a verse like this, could be because we do not have enough awareness of all that we have been forgiven. So this woman is abundance, and Jesus has to look around and really chide them and say, she loves more because she recognizes all that I have done for her and the forgiveness she has received.
Peter Englert
10:54 - 11:18
Does that help put some arms around it? Yeah, and you know, I just you know, I think about the patterns that we're talking about here because it's again, what we're saying is this this looks great. These two verses of this whole section, it looks great stitched on a pillow till you actually have to do it. So let's keep jumping in there, and I think this is good.
Peter Englert
11:18 - 11:40
So, you know, verse seven really talks about love being the source from God. And then he makes this kind of injunction or whoever does not love, does not know God because God is love. And then I think one of the things that you say is the literal translation, he who keeps on not loving. So why don't you explain a little bit of that?
Ron Hall
11:41 - 11:59
Yeah, because of the way, you know, it translates out. If you're not doing it, then there's a serious disconnection from God. I was thinking about churches that can have trouble and they have inner turmoil. The last thing you want to do is tarnish the reputation of Christ.
Ron Hall
12:00 - 12:17
But if it turns out you can't find it within you to be extending love to others, then something is seriously wrong. See, John is so black and white. This is not a gray book. This is a black and white book.
Ron Hall
12:17 - 12:33
Either you're for me or against me, Jesus said. Either you're on the broad road or you're on the narrow road. And for John, either you're in or you're out. And your capacity to love is going to directly reflect where your Christianity is.
Ron Hall
12:33 - 12:40
That's why you'll read this and you'll think, well, boy, am I really a Christian? What is going on within my life?
Peter Englert
12:41 - 13:20
Yeah, and I think that that's kind of the video is, you know, this video that we talked about this guy, it's like, how do I even know I'm a Christian if I don't love? You know, I think that this is a really, really good, you know, litmus test of, you know, I just had a devotion with the book of James where it talks about playing favorites and how people show partiality. And again, I think that the Bible gives us these litmus tests like, do you treat people that are richer better than you treat people that are poorer? Jesus even says in all the gospels, don't just pray for your neighbor and hate your enemy.
Peter Englert
13:20 - 13:27
That's what the pagans do. You're called to love your enemies and pray for them. And so I think we see this played out.
Ron Hall
13:28 - 13:48
Yeah, and it's repeated in the entire letter. Remember, chapter 1, we're walking in the light. Chapter 2, are we going to love the world, or are we going to love God? Chapter 3, are we going to be like Cain that's doing the work of the flesh, or are we going to be like the Lord?
Ron Hall
13:48 - 13:54
And then chapter 4, driving it home once again. And it will do the same in chapter 5.
Peter Englert
13:56 - 14:30
So, I don't know if John took a preaching class, how he would do in your class, but you know, one of the things that I've heard in preaching is, you know, you tell them, you tell them you told them, and then you tell them again. Yes. So now, now moving to verse nine, so, you know, what you deem an exhortation, maybe an encouragement with seven and eight, then we jump to the demonstration where Basically, John's not saying, hey, love comes from God. He goes a little bit deeper and he goes, this is how God demonstrated his love for us.
Peter Englert
14:30 - 14:56
And this is the clearest picture of the gospel that God sent his own son as an atoning sacrifice. So. You know, when we think about Christmas in John one, it's very different than any of the other Christmas stories where the word became flesh and dwelt among us. But each of the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they point to the good news of the gospel that that Jesus came to earth.
Peter Englert
14:57 - 15:09
lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose again. And it's through this good news that we follow him. And ultimately, what John's saying, it's out of this love we love other people.
Ron Hall
15:09 - 15:34
Yeah, that's good. It reminds me of Romans chapter 5 and verse 8. God commended his love towards us, and that while we were yet sinners, he died for us. So it's the idea that the initiator is God, And then we are the recipients, and then therefore we respond accordingly.
Ron Hall
15:35 - 15:57
You can never fully understand, Peter and all of us listening, what love is outside of God's embrace. And this is it. We talk about John 3.16, for God so loved the world. Well, you got 1 John 3, 16, also that reinforces the same one, and here we are again in chapter four, what love really looks like.
Peter Englert
15:58 - 16:17
Well, and we'll jump around a little bit, because where we started was kind of the concept of love. You know, there's three to four different words for love, and in verse 10, there's a direct connection to this love, verse 10. This love is agape love. And I got a love is not arrows.
Peter Englert
16:17 - 16:36
It's not passion. It's not store gay, which is friendship. But it is this deep, fulfilling love where, you know, you would give anything and probably marriage, I think, because the romantic element, I think sometimes we can get that confused. But I also think about the parent child love.
Peter Englert
16:37 - 17:06
Um, there's a lot that I'll put up with and do because my daughters say like, there's a lot that I'll give everything from, you know, I say, Hey, we're only going to read three stories. And she goes, you know, whether it's my older or younger daughter, can we read one more? Uh, you know, here's a funny story. My, my daughter, she, we just saw the David, uh, movie and, you know, she comes to me, she goes, daddy, can I read my Bible with you?
Peter Englert
17:06 - 17:17
And it's like, you know, what, what am I supposed to say? Like, no, you know? So we. We read 1 Samuel, and I was like, wow, this is not necessarily the most kid-approved, but we won't go.
Peter Englert
17:17 - 17:30
But again, just this agape idea of, I'm going to give you my undivided attention. I'm going to give sacrificially, not expecting anything. And that's what we see from Jesus, and that's the love that he's calling us to live.
Ron Hall
17:30 - 17:32
Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
Peter Englert
17:34 - 17:36
She wanted something tangible.
Ron Hall
17:37 - 17:52
It was a way of showing something tangible. And again, it wasn't just ooey-gooey sentimental. She wanted the way that you could show your love to her, jump right in and actually doing it.
Peter Englert
17:52 - 17:53
That's good.
Ron Hall
17:53 - 17:54
That's good.
Peter Englert
17:55 - 18:26
Well, and one thing I want to bring up, some people might be listening to this 10 years later, but at the time of this, You know, AI is proliferating and I don't think it's all good and I don't think it's all bad, but you see the timeless vision of relationship and I think where AI goes wrong. is there's something about human friendship. Now, I wish you lived in Rochester so that I could just knock on your door.
Peter Englert
18:26 - 18:44
You probably wish I lived in Charlotte. Yes. I mean, during winter, I wish I lived in Charlotte sometimes. But I think what makes this verse timeless is you know, we were created to have relationship with image bearers, not AI.
Peter Englert
18:44 - 18:57
And I think that Jesus, He could have easily said, I'll save you from Heaven. But even what this verse is saying, there's something about the theology of the incarnation about showing up and being together that's powerful.
Ron Hall
18:57 - 19:11
Yeah. Again, it's down to this action that love is a verb. You talk about showing up. I mean, we use that in our vernacular today, but Jesus literally shows up.
Ron Hall
19:12 - 19:25
I mean, He is there. He is the Son incarnate. And as John said, we touched him, we beheld him. It was tangible, where it was action-oriented.
Ron Hall
19:26 - 19:46
And so when you end up having the notes, those listening, I dealt with the Abraham. Where he's willing to offer up Isaac on the altar, it was something that was directly tangible. You've got to keep that in mind. So think in terms of love and action and not love and emotion.
Peter Englert
19:48 - 20:14
Well, let's go to the closing and we can always jump up if we've missed it, but I think we're having a rich conversation. It says this, you know, dear friend, since God loved us, it comes back to comes back to the original encouragement. You know, there's a little bit what we call a chiastic structure where, you know, there's an idea that's A, B, C, then C. So we see in the middle of it, it's about Jesus loving us.
Peter Englert
20:14 - 20:24
But then it comes back to this idea that, you know, because God loves you, because you've experienced that love, now go love one another. Yeah.
Ron Hall
20:25 - 20:53
Yeah, I love the connection with John chapter 13. By this will all men know that you're my disciples if you have love one for another. And that's my life verse, because I've seen so many people not get along well, even among believers. But how are people going to know we're his disciples if we're not loving one another, that's the action orientation here.
Ron Hall
20:53 - 21:29
So you picked up on the progression of the structure and let's say, you can't be saying that we love God and then we turn around and we are going to blast our brothers. And Peter started out how we were having a conversation before and before getting started we paused and prayed because we wanted to know our hearts were right and not allowing bitterness and resentment that we could have in us from past experiences we both had familiar territory with. And so it's a tender, delicate balance, Peter, as we're talking about it.
Peter Englert
21:31 - 22:10
Well, and I think what's powerful about this is let's not forget the humanity of Jesus. So, you know, probably my favorite class you ever taught, I can't decide if it's preaching the Gospels or Hebrews, but in Hebrews, it talks about a high priest that understands what it is to be human, comparing it with temptation and sin. We do see Jesus having emotions. You know, and and the key about loving people is it's it's not pushing away those emotions, but it's actually, you know, how do you process through that?
Peter Englert
22:10 - 22:27
So the black and white is there is a human moment that we actually jump to hate, bitterness and resentment. But there's also a fact that we're human. We have emotions, we have feelings, we have experiences. Some people I'd even say we have trauma.
Peter Englert
22:27 - 22:43
Not all of us. I'll let my wife, who's a therapist, talk about that. But what it's saying is that love is supposed to supersede all of that. And again, we don't probably have a ton of time, but I think it's important to delineate between things like forgiveness and reconciliation.
Peter Englert
22:44 - 23:04
You know, I think it's Dr. Neal Anderson that talks about forgiveness is. living with the consequences of someone else's sin, but that doesn't mean that you need to be reconciled to that person. And so I think that those are important delineations without taking away the clear-cut, you're called to love other people.
Ron Hall
23:04 - 23:21
Yeah. I'm thinking of 2 Corinthians 5 as you're walking through it. God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us in order that we might become the righteousness of God. So we're founding God's righteousness.
Ron Hall
23:22 - 23:42
I don't know if you've ever heard this, of a description of forgiveness. Forgiveness is the fragrance that a flower emits when you step on it. So what comes out of us? And if God's in us, then when we're stepped on, is there a fragrance that could come out just the same?
Ron Hall
23:43 - 23:52
And that was what came out with Jesus, again, God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God.
Peter Englert
23:53 - 24:21
Well, and then there's the flip side. The pastor that I had growing up, Bill Kirk, used to say, Unforgiveness is a poison we drink while we wait for the other person to die. Yeah. You know, so, you know, when we forgive—and that, again, this goes back to what we're saying in this passage as you're reflecting on it—you know, the if you let the gospel or the message of Jesus dying on the cross, what he did was action.
Peter Englert
24:22 - 24:30
It cost a lot. It cost his life. And this is the type of love that we're supposed to have toward each other. I love this quote.
Peter Englert
24:30 - 24:51
It's in the notes, but it's from Hendricks. Hendrickson, and it says this, we're able to see our fellow man or person or woman, but we cannot see God. Although we say we love God, our words are meaningless unless we give visible expression to them by showing our love to one another. I think that that really sums up what John's trying to say.
Peter Englert
24:51 - 24:51
Yeah.
Ron Hall
24:51 - 25:19
You know what's interesting on my journey? In my doctoral program, you know, you had to make a selection of what you would do for your dissertation. And I was so challenged by how Christians got along, I didn't like to see them in conflict, and that I wrote my dissertation on dealing with love and relationships in community. And what would that look like?
Ron Hall
25:20 - 25:41
What does a healthy church community look like? And in my studies, I went through, in the New Testament in particular, that over half of the New Testament was devoted to relationships. And there are over 50 one-anothers that are found in the New Testament. You forgive one another, you love one another, you pray for one another.
Ron Hall
25:42 - 26:07
They're repeated over and over again that, obviously, repetition is important to us to be able to take note of. So it's not loving in word, but it's loving in deed. And that's that verse 12, no one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Peter Englert
26:10 - 26:32
Yeah, and what I find interesting, and this is what makes the Bible brilliant, whether or not you're Christian or not, and this is why we encourage you to read it, you know, obviously we want you to encounter Jesus, but You know, it we want direct advice on how to handle things. You know, we want direct. This is how you live out the fruit of the spirit.
Peter Englert
26:33 - 26:51
But what makes the Bible so applicable is you actually have to, you know, search inside your heart. What are my motivations? Why am I doing this? Because there's people that, quote unquote, love to get in return they love for manipulation and we probably wouldn't call that love.
Peter Englert
26:52 - 27:22
But you know what we see here is that the continual transformation of God's love in our life that when we keep reflecting and keep thinking about it, it challenges the way that we love and You know, one of the questions that you have in reflection that I think is really powerful is, you know, in First John, it talks about the difference between being children and kind of being adults. How do we distinguish between the children of God and the children of the world? Well, it is the way we love.
Peter Englert
27:22 - 27:44
There's a maturity. Those are simple things like We don't send that email when we're really angry and there's hurtful words. I remember there's a basketball coach, he was once asked, what do you do when you and a player don't get along? He said, I rebound for them while they practice shooting during practice.
Peter Englert
27:45 - 27:54
There's certain these little things that take wisdom and dare I even say the transformation of the Holy Spirit. This is how I can love someone right now. This is how I can come towards them.
Ron Hall
27:57 - 28:22
And you've got to read yourself. I'm reminded of a guy who was convicted for the wrong that he had done to a family down in Texas. And the award was that every month the guy had to write out a check for $1 and send it to the family. And the guy could not maintain it.
Ron Hall
28:22 - 28:53
And it would make things even worse for him because The family could not get over the wrong that he had done and the harm, and he couldn't get over the pain of what he had to live with. Well, that's no way to live. Are we going to really be able to let go? And what distinguishes the children of God and the children of the world is that we are truly able to forgive and let go through the grace of God and love people regardless.
Peter Englert
28:57 - 29:10
Well, Ron, that's a great place to close. We're going to pick up with the rest of 1 John 4 a little later, but thank you so much for joining us, and we hope you have a great time reading 1 John.