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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:01.844)
Welcome everybody to the Courageous Coach podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Whether you're listening or watching us, it's lovely to have you with us. And today I'm joined by the wonderful Jo Hartley. Thank you so much for being here, Jo. I really appreciate you agreeing to come along and have this conversation with me. And I was reflecting before you joined and then we were just chatting about it as well, because I was thinking...
our relationship, our working relationship has been going for a little while now. And I was reflecting on the fact that, you know, I've been working with Jo. Jo did her ILM coach qualification with me when she was an internal coach, and then she stepped out she has her own coaching practice, which I'm sure she'll tell you all about. And we've been on the courage building journey together. Jo's been on my Dare to Lead program.
done some supervision work. And so it's been just the most joyful experience, privilege really for me to see Jo's whole journey from kind of discovering or formalizing her coaching practice and then making that bold step into her own business and then seeing her business develop and her develop as a coach. It's just been joyous for me. One of those really special relationships. So
I'm really excited to have Joe here and I have no idea where the conversation is going to go, so I'm curious to see what's going to come out. So Joe, welcome and thank you so much for being here.
Jo Hartley (01:40.012)
Well, thank you, Mersa. It's lovely. Thank you so much for asking me.
Melissa Hague (01:43.83)
Okay, well look, we'll start where we always do, which is Joe, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jo Hartley (01:51.308)
Okay, so pause, think. I'm turning up as a coach today. And that actually is a first statement is really important because for a lot of years I identified as a doctor. And actually my sort of leaning to courage these days is actually although I'm a doctor, I'm a coach first. And that's very much the journey I've been on with you over the last couple of years really.
and moving away from my medical practice into a coach. I still coach for doctors, but learning not to identify myself and put my expert hat on and potentially sit back and lean much more into myself as an individual and be the coach.
Melissa Hague (02:43.178)
I love this idea of identifying, right, because this is a big identity shift, right, when we move from employed life into self-employed life, actually, whatever that self-employed life looks like for us, right, but as coaches, it is an identity shift, our identity changes, and we have to put on, no, put on, our identity changes and we...
there's a discomfort in that and we have to find ourselves again and all of those kinds of things. And to have come from, I mean, I know that that was hard for me coming from a corporate background and having been in the sort of same profession my whole career and then suddenly I'm a coach. But for me, there was a real link between what I did as a career, so learning and development and then becoming a coach. So.
But I'm wondering for you, because I kind of hear doctor and coach. Now, for me, looking outside in, I'm like, okay, well, they're two quite different identities, really quite different identities. So what's that? What's the work been like there, Joe, to really kind of create that shift?
Jo Hartley (03:58.414)
So you're right, they are very, very different identities and I suppose probably it's worth giving you a little bit of context. I've been a doctor working within the NHS for over 30 years and I had a medical education portfolio. I became a consultant in emergency medicine in 2007 and had a family at the same time.
and was juggling an increasing interest in medical education. So working with individuals, working with people and going into leadership roles and beginning to sort of get more used to sort of that softer skill set, I think. I then in 2016 had my own brush with burnout. And I think that was probably the first time that I recognized my own vulnerability. I've been quite fortunate up to then.
you know, things get tough, you put your foot on the gas and you get over the humps and you crack on. And I just went out of steam is the honest answer. And it started my own self exploration journey and understanding what was going on. I've always been very much needing to understand things to learn and move beyond that. And I did that very much as a medic. And so I started
exploring what it was about me that made me vulnerable to burnout. I mean, to be honest, it was a fairly challenging work, life and environment. I'd got three children. I had got lots of other roles and I'm quite a perfectionist. You there were lots of reasons why I was very vulnerable in that situation. And I needed to know, but I needed to know that. And I didn't have enough understanding of psychology to really work out why.
I amongst my peer group were finding things more challenging potentially than others. And it was also tied up with a huge amount of shame, actually, the honest answer, because, you know, it's not something that you want to talk about. And so from my own perspective, I needed to explore. So I undertook a counseling qualification at that time, you know, typical doctor and I know coach, you know, if you don't understand something, you do a course on it.
Jo Hartley (06:18.092)
So I did a level two certificate in counseling. I really enjoyed it. Lots of complimentary skills associated with coaching. But there was a bit of frustration in that because actually there was a lot of people and it felt the therapeutic aspect of it was similar to my doctoring. And actually it kind of didn't work because I wanted to doctor rather than listen.
Melissa Hague (06:42.474)
yes, okay. Interesting.
Jo Hartley (06:44.11)
But it was the first time I picked up something slightly outside of medicine and recognized that this might be something I'd like to do a bit more of. And so over the course of the next couple of years, I used my lived experience to start working with doctors in training who were finding training more challenging.
And I felt that my own vulnerability and my own understanding of what was going on made me feel that I felt I had the empathy skills to work with them, to support them, to move forward. And so as part of that, coaching really was one of the skills that I should have. Then the pandemic hit. All study leave kind of got stopped.
By the end of the, and within the pandemic, I did a lot of support for other people and a lot of listening for people and realized how much I enjoyed it. So come to the end of the pandemic, I decided it was time for some more CPD.
Melissa Hague (07:52.672)
Mm-hmm.
Jo Hartley (07:54.262)
And I signed up with a coaching diploma. So this is where did Tom Dillon's diploma. But literally a month after I'd signed up for that, which was coming from my own funding, my trust advertised the ILM5, which is where I met you. Because actually there was an opportunity not only to have another bit of learning, but also the opportunity to work as a trust coach, which I thought would be invaluable. I've often...
Although I predominantly coach doctors, I have coached across the multi-professional team and actually I love doing that as well. So that was a really good opportunity. And then I think, as you know, I also had the opportunity through my professional support and wellbeing, which is when I worked with junior doctors to do a postgraduate certificate in career development at the same time that was offered to me. So I didn't just pick up a bit of CPD. I did three courses all at the same time, which is fairly typical.
I'm quite hard going at that time. But I, you know, I had lots of skills at the end of that. And realized I absolutely loved coaching.
Melissa Hague (08:52.83)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (08:58.699)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (09:06.314)
Yeah, you found, I feel like you found your thing. Right in inverted commas, whatever that thing is for sure. And and you know what strikes me Joe is that I talk I talk from my own experience and in terms of supporting coaches through their early development right through ILM programs. But that but also this piece for me around courageous
coaching, which comes for me later, not not a particular time later, but later because you I believe you need the skills, the fundamental skills, the fundamental understanding of what coaching is and what it isn't. But I what I what I'm really curious for you, because I I know your journey, it's not my journey, but I know it, right. And so I remember us being together on that ILM.
And you asked lots of great questions, which is always a good sign, I always think when someone's, you know, curious and curious enough to ask questions. It's usually a sign that, you know, there's some there's a there's a coach in there wanting to get out. Right. But that was very much the kind of
you know, asking great questions, listening, here's the grow model, you know, here's how you contract, you know, all the really kind of fundamental stuff. And then we did the Dare to Lead program together, which is much more about, you know, who you are and how you want to show up. And since then, we, think, you know, broadly speaking, we've been on the kind of
you know, who are you as a coach? Who are you becoming? What, what kind of coach do you want to be? So you're almost the, the the the carbon copy is that I don't know if that's the right term, but like the carbon copy of how I see coach development happening, and also the way I see my role in supporting that coach development in the various bits of my business, right? And so do you
Melissa Hague (11:19.734)
I guess because I'm sat here, that's what I'm thinking. I now feel like I want to check in and is that how you view your journey, your coach development journey, or do you see it differently? Or have I missed something maybe?
Jo Hartley (11:33.858)
don't think you've missed anything at all, actually, Melissa. That's been one of the reasons why it's been so fantastic to check in with you over that time. You've provided a degree of of accountability and knowledge and wisdom and empathy and support along that way, which has been really helpful because it did take a lot of courage. And I think almost in answer to one of your previous questions, but bringing it forward, actually, the difference between being a doctor and being coach is actually quite big.
You know, I go into the doctor for, and I am the expert, I'm expected to know. And you know, I liked knowing and actually I was a pretty experienced doctor and that's where I felt comfortable in that. And so much of being a coach is in fact taking off all of that. It's turning up with authenticity, isn't it? With your own and being.
being your own self in that space so that you can allow the other person to take off all of that armour so they can be vulnerable and they can be open and they can move forward on their own journeys. And so you talk about, as I did the ILM stuff, yeah, it's all about being the expert, know, ticking the boxes, getting it right, understanding a framework.
following that pathway and I can remember having conversations with you at the time about you know was it okay to kind of give some advice at this point because obviously doctors are always full of advice and I don't really feel like I value added to anything unless I've given you my pearls of really amazing wisdom that I've been carrying for so long. And then actually it's been sort of it's been able to gradually let that go.
as I've built up in confidence and recognize that actually the less I go in with without that agenda and allowing to work with my client is the power behind that. And not only from the coaching conversation, but also what I'm recognizing as I've moved forward from a business perspective is to go in actually with my own vulnerability and share.
Jo Hartley (13:50.87)
and be open and talk about my lived experience as a doctor. So I work with a lot of medical clients. They might be doctors in training, but actually my real passion and niche is to work with people like I was, actually consultants who established, who are having challenges in the workplace. It is an extremely challenging, pressurized environment. And actually we all find it challenging at times. And so
having, you know, sharing my own vulnerabilities can sometimes be an opportunity for others to share and learn and understand. And so, yeah, I'm beginning to realize that the expert in me is not needed in my coaching role. And I think one of my biggest challenges is to go into that feeling comfortable, know, feeling as comfortable as I can.
Melissa Hague (14:47.636)
Yes, absolutely. it's I, I don't know if certainly for me, because we've talked before about, you know, that that struggle of letting go of the expert letting go of being right and having the answers and, and so on. And I think, you know, that whole thing, it's not about, I can, you know, I've ditched that now, I no longer need to be the expert, it's more about or I no longer want to be the expert, it's more about how do I manage that when it when it creeps up?
from, for me, it was creeped up from my belly, right, and just comes up a little bit and goes, hello, you know, the answer to this. And okay, what do do in that moment? Right? What's my choice? And, and also, I guess, letting go of the idea that the only way I add value is to share my expertise or to give an answer, or to fix. I mean, I'm imagining
you know, from a doctor's perspective, expected not only you expected to be the expert, but you're also expected to fix me. You know, and I mean, of course, sadly, sometimes you can't. But nonetheless, that's what people come to you for, right? Make me feel better. Fix me. Fix me.
Jo Hartley (16:00.886)
Yeah, and actually that's quite a lot of that job satisfaction that you get at the end, feeling like you value added. You you come to me, I value add and you walk away and you feel better. And so just to sit there and you know, I work some clients where I don't really get much of a word in edgeways actually, it's just a mm, mm. And I'm sitting there thinking, sure I must be able to create some value here, but no, I've sat in that discomfort and they've gone,
Melissa Hague (16:06.227)
Yeah.
Jo Hartley (16:29.122)
Wow, that was a really great session. think, yeah, you have just talked for the last hour or 90 minutes, but that's what they needed. And I think, so I think what I'm recognizing is that often I'm working with very resourceful individuals. And so therefore the less that I do, the better their thinking moving forward. It's not always easy. And I think, I mean, we've had conversations before, but I don't just coach.
I also work in a support role and actually I can and there is an requirement sometimes to offer advice, to do some mentoring and some coaching depending on how resourceful the individual in front of me is. And so I can occasionally slip into bad habits but I'm getting better at it. It was I think that sort of transition for me when I left clinical practice which was two years ago and started to do more coaching.
I then started to recognize and just be more intentional and more aware of what I'm doing in the coaching room. You get the basic foundational skills, don't you? And you can put it in practice, you can have a chemistry call and you can do the grow model and you can do all of those bits and pieces. And then actually, once you don't have questions sitting in your head the whole time, there's a bit more space to start thinking about what's going on, thinking about what's happening within that, the coaching space and looking at what the client's in front of you.
needs at that time. And so I've been able to step back a bit, but it does mean that I will make a judgment call on how resourceful the person in front of me is. And I think sometimes people are varying resourceful. know, I'm a C, you know, I won't obviously tell you how old I am exactly, but I am getting towards the end of my medical career.
Melissa Hague (18:11.35)
Yeah.
Jo Hartley (18:25.238)
And actually I will often contract with doctors for mentoring at the beginning as well because sometimes I may have something that might be useful but I, know, what's the phrase? Never know first, never know best but never knowingly withhold information. And actually I think on occasion there may be something of value to do that but I'm getting much better at not jumping in.
Melissa Hague (18:55.166)
Yeah. Yeah, lovely. This is such an important thing, right, because I think that there's something for me. So when I mentioned that kind of bubbling up, so I always feel the knowing, I don't, I tend not to call it advice anymore, because I because I'm, because I've been programmed by all of my coach training, the expertise is bad. It's a bad thing to be an expert. It creates a, I don't like the feeling it gives me now. Right. So I talk, I talk about being a knower.
right, thinking I know. And it kind of creeps up, it rises up through from my belly all the way up into feels like it's coming up my throat, right, I can feel it building. And, you know, as I was learning to coach and in the early days, it probably I'm sure in fact, I know, and I'm happy to admit, it fell out, right, it fell out of my mouth. And I was like, Oh, no, I've broken the rules on my back.
and then I beat myself up about that, right? Not beating ourselves up, But I think what's really interesting is that I know, and I think this is what you're describing, I know when it's happening. I can feel the knowing bubbling up. And then, rather than suppressing it, which I think is where I was going wrong before, I now think, that's curious.
what's that knowing about? Because it could be that I'm going into my, want to add value and I know best or, you know, I can fix this. Or it might be that I'm noticing something or seeing something in the client or in the system around the client that potentially they might not have seen yet. So it could be helpful to share it to offer it, right?
Or it could be telling me something else about me or about the client or about our relationship. Maybe the client has triggered me or maybe the client has said, I wish you'd just tell me what to do. and then my Noah is what's bubbling right up now because they've actually even asked me. mean, amazing. Now I can now I can get out I can spill out and it'll be fine because they asked right they've given me permission. So
Melissa Hague (21:12.176)
something for me about how do we get curious about what's driving the Noah and to do that we've got to be able to notice when it's coming rather than now it's come out of my mouth it's spilled out of my mouth and I can't take it back now and self compassion is such an important part of that because I think and again I'm curious if this is your experience having gone through the journey with me because
my senses is that we come out of our early coach development in a bit of a straight jacket, right in a kind of, you know, here are my rules, here are the things I should do, here are the things I shouldn't do. And, know, and many of those things, particularly kind of ethical things, they're important. But interestingly, I think even if it's not what we're being taught, what I think we're learning is I must stay and I mustn't.
I must not about me, it's about them. It's not about me, it's about them. You know, I mustn't be bring too much of myself to this, you know, and it becomes this sort of restrictive straight jacket. And so at some point, we want many of us kind of want to go, I want to this straight jacket isn't me, it just isn't me. Right. And so I'm wondering for you now, what are you?
What are you noticing about who you're becoming as a coach?
Jo Hartley (22:40.77)
I think, well I had to think about this when I sort of set up my own business and wrote the little blurb all about me in there and I thought, you know what, I love the phrase integrative coach because it means you can do a little bit of what you fancy but no one's actually going to check on your new work that you're doing it properly because you're doing what comes up for the client in the room. And I liked the phrase but that was almost giving me permission to not know, not know all the models and bits and pieces. And actually you know what?
I am an integrative coach because that's what I've done all my life. I've worked with people as a doctor for years, so I might not be an expert coach, but actually I am an expert at working with people. And I think the fact is that I am actually able to create connection in a way that feels right, and I think I'm quite...
intuitive in that situation. So often I do understand or do kind of get a feel of what's moving forward. But I'm also not confident, I try to be open and listen and offer rather than suggest and so that it's gentle.
with what's coming back and I'm happy to it's not going in the right direction or if I was to share something or ask a question it would be perfectly acceptable for someone to say no no that's not what it is at all and I would be happy with that and that doesn't feel that doesn't feel challenging it's just accepting that that's what's going on. And so yeah I think for me I think the client connection is really important and that's what drives that situation.
And then, yeah, again, there is some, there are stuff sitting there because also I deliver workshops. I work with quite a lot of the people I coach. And so there is an element of, we did that in the workshop last week. Would it be really helpful to use it here? And often they quite like that. But again, it's about what's coming out in this conversation and what's helpful and moving forward. And I think I'm getting better at doing less.
Melissa Hague (24:49.376)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (25:02.422)
Hmm.
Jo Hartley (25:06.784)
Yeah, I think I'm getting better at doing less and being more my authentic self, just providing that space to see where they want to go. And if they want to ask me because they're not feeling resourced or whatever, I'm happy to have that conversation. But it won't be a large part of the conversation. I will move back to a more open conversation.
Melissa Hague (25:27.222)
Yeah. Yeah. And look, there's lots in that bit, Jo, thank you. Because there's, you you use the word offer, which as you know, one of my favorite words, I think language is so important. And when we talk about make a suggestion or give advice, it feels so telling, you know, I'm going to tell you, and I just love the idea of offering something. And you know, whether they pick it up and run with it or not, that's their choice. I'm unattached to the success.
perceived success of my offer, right? So this language is so important. And I think there's something for me this authenticity thing is super important because I'm imagining for a moment, let's say I'm a potential client of yours, I'm a doctor. I'm not everyone knows that but let's imagine I'm a doctor and I want to undertake some coaching maybe around career development, let's say.
and I come across your website or LinkedIn or Weconnect in somewhere and I look at your profile and I think, this is, think Jo could be the coach for me. She's been a doctor, she was consultant, emergency medicine. okay, so she understands the pressure, she kind of gets it, I can see her career. Okay, yeah, I think I'll meet with Jo. Let's see if we, you know, we want to work together. Now, if you then show up in that session,
and don't own your experience and identity as a doctor. It's like, well, well, that's not authentic either, is it? And so if I'm sat here as your client, and you're not sharing anything of yourself, like, well, hang on, I came to you, I chose you, because I felt like you would get me. And, know, I've had coaches say to me before,
when when my client says, Well, what do you think I always say, it doesn't matter what I think it tell me what you think. And it's like, but it does sometimes matter to them what you think, right. And the other thing coming back to that idea of offering. The other thing I've learned with kind of my Noah is that previously before being a coach, my Noah was attached to being right.
Melissa Hague (27:39.466)
So it wasn't just about knowing, it was also the knowing that what I knew was right. And we do that a lot at work, right? Me in my corporate world, and I'm sure you in medicine, that whole thing of, I am confident I'm right, this is the right way to do this, this is my perspective. And actually sometimes in my employed life, that person is wrong and I'm right because I know.
And so there's something also for me about separating the Noah or the the expert as you described it right from being right. So I think I think I know. And I know for me, I know for me in my experience, I know for me based on the kind of person I am I know for me based on the situation context I was in when it happened to me, whatever. I don't know for the person sat in front of me. And that was a real like,
Okay, because I had to find ways of talking to myself so that my expert would just quieten down a bit just, you know, still there, but it would just quieten, you know, and be in the background. So yeah, I might know, but I know for me, and I don't know that I'm right for them. And I just think that's such an important perspective. And that's my language or my way of describing exactly what you just talked about, right?
you imagine showing up and not owning your your docterness? I'm like but it's not all that easy.
Jo Hartley (29:12.024)
No, exactly it is my and also again that's my call to action really is the fact is that I'm offering what I felt that it's nine years ago now that I would really have resonate would have been really helpful for me at that time and fundamentally I think that there is a real lack of awareness of coaching in medicine is getting better. But when I
told my colleagues I was going off to be a coach, know, why would they need coaching? They don't need fixing. You know, and all those sorts of, you know, they don't understand the difference between coaching, don't understand the counselling, but it's all about, you know, needing something and being fixed and being wrong and stuff like that. And actually, so far from the truth, you can't coach people if they aren't resourced. And so it is very much about understanding it's about
Melissa Hague (29:46.934)
Hmm.
Jo Hartley (30:09.838)
and taking that shame away. So I feel really strongly about it and I suppose that's why I don't just coach, I do workshops and I also work with doctors that require more support because I feel that actually as a profession we need to own the fact that we're human, that common humanity.
Melissa Hague (30:32.328)
Yeah.
Jo Hartley (30:34.836)
It's tough, it will affect us and in fact to be honest do I want a doctor that's not affected by the things that are going on? Actually that connection, that empathy, that understanding is so important but therefore we need to take stock and understand and look at ourselves and also pulling out that career piece. You're not the same person in your 20s as you are in your 30s, 40s and 50s and our life changes.
you a lot of what I was juggling with 10 years ago was having three children under the age of 10 and trying to be a perfect mom and a perfect doctor and also a perfect leader in my village. was completely, completely challenging myself with ridiculous expectations and never having actually prioritized self care.
So much of it within medicine is, that patient needs sorting out or you can't, you know, don't go for lunch, don't go to sleep, don't go and do that, that takes the priority. Work is done first and often for very good reasons, but not everything is life and death. In fact, very little of it is. And I used to see this when I was a consultant running the shop floor, if I would encourage my junior doctors to go, sorry, not junior doctors anymore, they're called resident doctors now, but.
resident doctors to go for a break, they were more efficient and more effective after a break. And so they go, oh, Jo, you're great. No, I'm actually prioritizing workload. But you know what? The person who didn't go for a break was me because I, you know, just ridiculous. mean, of course, I'm superhuman. You know, I don't need one. And that's been one of the hardest things to do is actually just recognise I am human.
Melissa Hague (32:14.326)
You're different, you don't need a break.
Jo Hartley (32:25.834)
and give myself permission for that self-care piece and not just sit in self-judgment.
Melissa Hague (32:32.618)
Yeah. And I think, look, self care is important across the piece, right? We talk about it a lot for coaches as well, right? Particularly, and actually, I'll turn this into a question rather than a statement because I'm curious now, right? Because you're running your own business, you are your own boss, you can do as you wish with your time and your workload and your diary and all of those things, right? And so...
How, what's the adjustment been or has there been an adjustment for from in terms of self care from moving from that kind of medical environment, clinical environment into okay, you're your own boss now. So how do you how do you deal with that self care now?
Jo Hartley (33:16.078)
So I'm more aware that it's something to recognise. So I think the piece I haven't mentioned is I left clinical practice two years ago because I was hitting burnout again. And actually, you know, so much of that is an organisational factor. And I needed to change the environment that I worked in. And I was lucky that I had an educational role to step into. So there was a transition.
But around that piece was recognizing I couldn't keep doing the same old thing in the same old environment at the same old time. I need to start prioritizing self-care and looking at it and realizing that to create a sustainable career, needed to be pockets for myself in that time. In order, and you fundamentally notice it, if you go into a coaching session unresourced, it doesn't go as well as if you go in with all that time and you've had a break and...
you pause and so you do recognise it working one to one with people. So I have a much more, I suppose I have a much more physiological routine now. So I out and do my dog walk in the morning, which is really the personal space. I've had a dog in the last couple of years and that's made a really big difference.
Melissa Hague (34:21.106)
Jo Hartley (34:30.968)
So I have my morning connection with the dog walkers. I go out and get my fresh air, go and get my melatonin. So my body clock is good. And so I sleep well. All of that, I never had that in medicine. So that has been really helpful as scaffolding to my routine in my daily life. When I left clinical practice, I took on anything and everything to be honest, in order to prove that I was still useful and still worth it.
And I actually have similar tendencies. You're a workaholic in an organization, you still become aware. I think it's very easy to fall into the workaholic trap when you're self-employed. In fact, even more when your paycheck depends on the amount of work you've done. And so you're much more aware of fluctuations and things around that. And there are lots of challenges in self-employment that, my goodness, I was so unbelievably institutionalized. I didn't even have a Google Drive or
anything when I left the NHS. So there's lots and lots of learning around that. So it has felt like there's been potential for overwhelm on occasions and reality of overwhelm on other occasions. But I think my journey is much more about understanding myself. I've got a couple of years now after leaving and I'm beginning to re-evaluate again. What do I need as an individual? I need a day off in the week.
I need not to be completely booked client to client, back to back, because actually I'm not able to deliver the quality of work that I would like to do. So it's not quantity, it's quality for me.
Melissa Hague (36:12.554)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jo Hartley (36:14.535)
and I need, yeah, I've never been brilliant with boundaries.
Melissa Hague (36:21.23)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jo Hartley (36:23.768)
But boundaries are our own choice, aren't they? People don't trample on your boundaries. You don't maintain your boundaries. And so I'm beginning to realize that if I don't, it comes down to me. And I have more time and more reflective opportunity to realize what I need and what I don't.
Melissa Hague (36:26.016)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (36:45.246)
Yeah. mean, dog walk. mean, we're fellow fellow dog walkers. We've talked about that before, haven't we? I mean, they're just they I would literally I think have gone stir crazy mad and saying whatever the appropriate word is without the the company of dogs at home because I'm working at like you working at home all the time. My husband's out working. So I'm literally on my own other than obviously work because I do most of my work like this. So it's lonely. So those two that my two dogs are dead. They're
critical and going out for a walk and all of the benefits of that. I mean, I don't know what I'd do without dogs. Now I think everyone should have a dog now. don't know. I know that not everyone loves dogs, but I am a big dog lover. So I love that's common share we have.
Jo Hartley (37:29.11)
Yeah it is and you're absolutely right you know they create that routine in your life don't they and to a certain degree I did think that when I started working from home I had the tendency just to sit in front of computer and get on with things I did that when I was doing my all those courses I was juggling together I was at the computer for ages but the dog won't let me she comes and says thanks me you've had enough now
Melissa Hague (37:44.082)
What? Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Jo Hartley (37:53.094)
I sit next to after a zoom call or client call and I say bye. She knows exactly what bye means. It means you have to get up and compete now mum. Walk around.
Melissa Hague (38:01.622)
Absolutely, I get presented with tennis balls and all sorts of things. Yeah, absolutely. yeah, they're not subtle, Definitely not. And so I think this is such an important thing that you're sharing, Jo, because you know, you're two years-ish in, aren't you, really, to kind of getting your business set up and your practice and deciding what work you want to do and don't want to do and all of those things. And it's...
Jo Hartley (38:04.967)
That's unsettle hints.
Melissa Hague (38:31.55)
I don't know whether the first two years are the hardest. don't know. think every year brings its challenges, right? But I found in those first two years, all of that stuff, Understanding business, like you said, okay, I need a Google Drive and I need to set up my Outlook and I need this and I need that. I don't have an IT department anymore, so when it breaks, it hurts because I've got no one to ask.
How am going to do invoicing? my goodness. The business admin, the admin of running a business, right? And then, know, the marketing and visibility. How do I let people know I'm here and, know, why are they not just queued up outside my door? I thought that was what was going to happen. You know, do I do a website? Don't I do a website? my goodness. It goes on and on. But I also think there's this real...
question, I know for me very similar to you in those first few years, I did a lot of work that I in retrospect, I probably should have said no to. I missed out on work because that I wanted to do because I said yes to work that I probably didn't need to, you know, all of those kind of things. But I also spent a lot of time working out what's the work that I want to do. Because I came out of employed life and said, I just want to do more of the work I love.
well, what does that mean? Right, you know, so I had to really discover almost what we discover, what's the work that I love in this setting for me in my own business without a boss to tell me what to do without a team around me supporting me? What's the work that I really want to do? And so I had to experience I felt I had to experience it and then go, I'm never doing that again. That was just the most unmotivating draining. No, not for me not doing that anymore.
And then, my goodness, that is it. That's the thing. I loved it. I want to do more of that. So there's a real kind of discovery as well of the work you want to do, plus all of the identity stuff that we talked about at the beginning, right? You're shifting in your identity. You're working out what, you know, being self-employed actually means. It's a lot, I think, right? It's a lot. And so...
Melissa Hague (40:52.424)
for what Joe, what would you say? And I'm kind of thinking like there may be, there's probably going to be people listening, right? Who may are going to be further along than you are that are going to be newer than you are different. Yep. And what I'm wondering is if people are listening and thinking, I'm just I want to do what you've done leave employed and become or you know, I'm a year in or I'm six months in and I'm struggling or what, what are the what have been your most important and there will have been lots so maybe
pick a few, you two or three. What have been your most kind of important lessons for you in those kind of first two years that may or may not, we don't know, be helpful for other coaches to hear, do you think?
Jo Hartley (41:39.438)
Okay, so I think of all of it, the most important thing is trust your And that actually if you really trust your gut, because you're probably right, because you've been doing this for years, and there is some neuroscience behind why the gut tends to align and it tends to resonate when it's either in accordance with your values or something you know or whatever, so trust your gut.
I think the other thing, these are lessons that I should be having up on my wall in front of me. Press pause when you're not sure. Don't rush to answer. I tend to say yes rather than say no to things. And I need to learn to pause, reflect, and work out is this right for me now?
Melissa Hague (42:36.106)
Yeah.
Jo Hartley (42:38.12)
And yes, when I'm less resourced, I'm more likely to say yes. And that I think that fundamentally, it is a really wonderful opportunity to go off and do something different, but it's also hard. And so I think one of the things that worked quite well for me was that I had a foot in both camps. So I'm still employed at the moment and that's ticked along, brought the money in at the same time.
I'm lucky it's work that I do like, but it's ticked along the background so that I've been able to grow my business organically in the way that I felt I wanted to because it comes in fits and starts. There are times when you feel massively empowered and you can take on this, that and the other. And as you say, when the IT goes wrong, whatever, you know, I sit quite a lot in my left brain and quite a lot of the business stuff is quite creative. It's quite organic. It's pulling on stuff that I've never utilized before.
And if I've just had to sort out an IT problem, I then can't write a LinkedIn newsletter. I just can't. It doesn't work. So there are times when you feel productive and times that you don't. And so I think having an income stream, it may not have been the ideal income stream, but it gave me the opportunity to grow the business in a way that felt right.
Yeah, and don't underestimate. There is so much that comes out. All this call to courage, know, within coaching comes up with setting a new business. That whole, you know, I'm not good enough, the whole comparison, the whole scarcity, all of those arena moments come out as you're putting yourself on the line and you're turning up with vulnerability as well. You're suddenly not an organization with that integrity that goes with it and all of that knowledge. You're just turning up as
you know I'm turning up as a burnt out doctor you know to clearly I feel actually I actually feel quite proud of being able to to turn out with that now but you know fundamentally you know there are colleagues who will see that in me but actually what I have to recognize is the ones I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not their coach I'm coaching the people that can recognize that can see that within themselves
Melissa Hague (44:51.446)
Mm.
Jo Hartley (45:01.122)
and are actually looking to move that forward. And so some people won't like me either. And I'm fundamentally a people pleaser. So that's quite difficult as well. But I'm trying to be authentic and I like the fact I can be authentic, me.
Melissa Hague (45:17.238)
It is a constant journey, isn't it that because in order to be authentically us, we have to do the work to know ourselves well enough to be authentic, right? And I always, I always remember, I was doing a leadership development program, or 10 years or more ago now, and we were talking about authenticity. And one of the leaders in the room, just, I hate this word.
authentic. It's it's overused. I mean, that happens all the time, doesn't it? They said, I just think that, just think that people are using it and excuse the expression. But these were his words. He said, I think people are just using it as an excuse to be an arse. Yeah, yes, but I'm being authentically me. You know what I mean? And, it really stuck with me because I thought are so true that people
This that's not what being authentic means, right? Authentic means I've done the work, I'm self aware, I know myself, I know my values, I know what's important to me, I know what my, my struggles are, I know what my development areas are, you know, I know who I am. So I'm always that's the journey, right? And that that developing that authenticity is constant, because you will change the business change your clients change.
So we're doing that work all the time. That's the hard work that sits almost for me, it almost sits like at the core of all of the other stuff that we've talked about around, you know, the business and the practice and learning the skill. And at the core of it all is, you know, you and who you are and how well you know yourself. And I mean, I, what I really like Joe as well is that I think your journey represents the sort of
how I see courage in as much as yes, there are some bold moves, right? There are some, you know what? I think I want to set up my own coaching. I think I want to go independent. I'm going to make it happen. And there's courage in that, right? And it's bold step to make that decision and to move away, particularly from not just a career, but something, I don't know what the right word is. Is it a vocation? I don't know what the right word is, but you you've been
Melissa Hague (47:39.55)
Yeah, there's lots wrapped up in that whole word doctor. You know, which is probably a whole other podcast. So it might not even be the courageous coach podcast. don't know. But so there's just this sense for me that you but there's lots of you got your big stuff, but you also recognize and you talked about it today is all of the little acts of courage that you do as well. Right all the time. And even that's the kind of
you know, the courage to say no, or to say yes, or the courage to step away from your desk and go walk around the garden with the dog who's doing the puppy dog eyes at you, you know, all of these really small moments that those are the choice point between do I choose courage or do I choose comfort. And so yeah, we're constantly in that on that journey, right? It's not a it's not a done. It's not a well, in your case, it's not well, I've done the courses, I've got the qualifications, now I'm done.
right, you're still doing the work. And I think that's where qualifications and certifications and programs courses are at their most powerful. When the person is prepared to take that learning away and continue to do the work. It's when they go, look, I've got a certificate says I'm a coach, but they haven't continued the work, right. So Joe, to close off our conversation, then I asked you like, what are what are some of your kind of most important lessons from kind of beginning being in that
kind of that early stage, those two years, first two years of your own business. But let's come back to my question around that I always close with around what what's the one thing that you think all coaches should know about courage?
Jo Hartley (49:25.07)
So it's interesting, isn't it? Because you've kind of taken, you've kind of stolen it from your last comment really about what I was thinking about. But I suppose it's the courage to be yourself and actually to be proudly going into that situation all walks and all and being vulnerable in that space because that mirroring effect, that creation of an honest environment for the client.
Melissa Hague (49:28.978)
I it. I stole it.
Jo Hartley (49:52.96)
will create that trust, build up those layers of trust so that actually the work can happen in that room for in that client's best interest I think. So I think it is yeah just turning up and trusting the process.
Melissa Hague (50:10.452)
Wow. Showing up and being seen, right, we always think turning, turning up, right, showing up and being seen. I love that idea of a mirror. Because don't we often we talk about being a mirror, holding the mirror up for our clients so they can see themselves more clearly. But there's also something about that mirroring of, you know, how you show up, how open and honest and courageous and vulnerable you are. There's that contagious thing again, isn't it? There's a mirroring back and forth of that.
like that idea. Lovely. Thank you Joe. Thank you for joining me today and for sharing really openly about your journey because I know many people listening will be at a similar point, an earlier point, a later point, wherever right, but it's just so rich to hear someone share their story right, where they've come from and where they're going. So thank you for that. I really appreciate your openness and I can't wait to see what's next.
Right, and continue to walk alongside you. It's a real privilege. yeah, thank you.
Jo Hartley (51:17.304)
Thank you. It's been lovely to talk to you today. Thank you very much for the opportunity. And just thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. It's been so wonderful to have you along my journey to be able to have these conversations with you on a regular basis so that I can grow into my coaching and into myself really. So thank you.
Melissa Hague (51:39.91)
It's a privilege, Joe. Thank you so much for being here and take good care. Go to play with that dog in the garden with the ball.
Jo Hartley (51:48.824)
Yeah, I've got a son that's just, I don't know if you've just heard my phone go off, but my son's just messaged me to say come and pick me up. It's perfect time. Yeah, exactly, exactly, that's right. Thank you.
Melissa Hague (51:52.214)
So.
Melissa Hague (51:58.09)
Parenting duty calls, I love it.
Thank you Joe, take care.
Jo Hartley (52:05.952)
Okay, bye.