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The Navvai Shift – AI & Business Insights
Welcome to The Navvai Shift, the podcast where business leaders in finance share their journeys, challenges, and unfiltered thoughts on artificial intelligence. We dive deep into how AI is shaping industries, uncovering real-world insights from those driving innovation.
Subscribe for expert conversations on AI, automation, and the future of business.
Welcome to another episode of the Novice
Chef. Today I'm with my host Darnell
Green and today we have Jarro Lanzar on
co-founder of DB Investing. Jaro, how
are you?
>> Hi guys, good day. Everything is fine
here from Dubai. Good weather, sunny day
then. Maybe it's better than
>> to be honest with you. I I definitely do
think so for sure. So I know MDB's
investing journey is quite a compelling
one from startup to a trusted platform
by over half a million users. So not
just navigated fintech actually shaping
the future. So for our viewers listening
to give us a bit more insight on DB
investing.
>> Well guys
I don't know uh what do you know about
our history? We opened the door uh in
2018 and uh well at the beginning
especially for the for the first years
it's quite hard to gain trust
on the markets
not only with the clients also with the
partners with the with the banks with
the payment providers I mean with any
kind of uh state okay
but well usually after a few years I was
uh speak about uh the example of the
bamboo. The bamboo usually needs five
years to get solid roots and I think
this is the clear example of this
company. We spend the first years again
to build to improve to learn test learn
from the mistake because at the end it's
our best teacher
our mistakes and after a while here we
are on the ground.
>> Amazing. So I did want to ask Naro what
was the actual opportunity you saw that
led to founding DB investing
>> opportunities. Well guys from which
point of view opportunities
>> as in so what did you like identify a
gap in the market?
>> Okay what's your question? Well honestly
I didn't see in the past any gap in the
market especially because not any kind
of new business model. I mean when I run
this company years ago uh the cap in the
market it was on the crypto sides but
honestly speaking it was quite new for
me. Then I said okay let me run
something in let's say in the market
that is quite mature the trading but
case there are opportunities to grow and
to connect after the crypto with the the
trading and honestly this is what we are
now working to connect both markets well
of course during the journeys
the focus here again market it's measure
is to learn also from the competitors
learn from from the others because again
is you are not launching something new.
Maybe this was my regret honestly
speaking between us because one years
ago I'm speaking 2018 17 someone was
telling me let's run something focus
100% on the crypto like let's say
Binance honestly on that time I was a
bit uh not suspicious but not confident
of this kind of market I was not even
thinking if such market could explode
it was my mistake because again this is
the risk when you are running a business
into a market then it's completely new.
you can uh close in a 6 months or maybe
you can skyrockets 1,000 or 10,000 times
you know you never know but anyway uh
that's my journey I started the trading
that was again any drop on the market
honestly speaking I decide to run one of
the different bros but with the with the
clearing to focus
on the best pro product and service
markets
what I mean I always see as an example
the the strategy plan from Tesla. Okay.
When Tesla was open doors 15 years ago,
there was no advertising, no showroom.
Maybe you know that. Okay. But why they
succeed? Because they extremely focused
to their products and to their service
which means the car is a product sell
itself.
>> And then this is what I'm focusing
honestly to compete markets giving
always the best. there is always space
to improve and this is the mindset I'm
me personally sharing on a daily basis
to each of my employee each of the team
>> well I think your strategy is definitely
working because we've done some prior
research and we've seen that you've
scaled your business I think it's over
200 uh employees I think across multiple
offices as well so I just want to say
that is that's an amazing achievement
>> did you expect to scale so quickly
because obviously you founded in 2018 I
believe or was it just
just had so much traction.
>> Uh well honestly speaking when I opened
the company I didn't have such
projection for the future. what I mean.
Okay, I was not even uh drafting like a
deep business plan 10,000 documents
honestly speaking some people they do
that okay but okay maybe this works if
you want to get funded okay and then uh
prepare and show up 1,000 documents but
in this case honestly it was a project
coming from my heart from my idea from
my head and of course I didn't have any
uh future forecasts
now I'm saying okay I never uh thoughts
that we can of course cross 50 employees
cross 100 150 200 including direct
indirect partners on the market but of
course um uh today I had one meeting
they asked me and they told me hey you
have a big company my answer was no it's
more they say why compared with my
future plan for the coming five years
it's more
>> you you always have to you always have
to dream big and think big I think
that's definitely I think We also
definitely have that ideology. So I did
want to ask so when was the kind of
turning point when you realized all of a
sudden that it's actually going to be a
big company in terms of like you know
you didn't plan that initially to to to
it to grow this size already. So what do
you think was the initial turning point
that led to this acceleration? Listen
the the first years it was quite hard as
I said before not because I want to
repeat but because there was a lot of
things to learn a lot of mistakes on the
grounds uh a lot of challenge let's say
from this point of view okay
uh but uh apart from that uh I think
when you have a company and more or less
you think that you have a quite solid
ground base you think yourself that okay
now I think it's the time to grow. But
maybe that's is my my mindset. Maybe
this my opinion. I full respect other
people. They have their own company.
They they are happy with the real estate
growth. They stick to one point and it's
okay. They are happy.
>> But honestly, it's not my my focus. My I
don't have any target like reach this
point and that's it. Not at all.
>> That's that's amazing. And JR I know you
kind of just touching it. You said
mindset and I think when you kind of
start your entrepreneur journey, the
mindset is definitely an important one
to have in place. So how would you say
your entrepreneur journey has shaped the
vision execution of what you're trying
to build here?
>> Listen, you you mention the word
execution. This is the best nowadays
because we are in a in a market
in our environment
everything is fast. We want to get
everything fast. You want to order from
your mobile, you want to get delivery in
10 minutes.
>> Five minutes.
>> Then
focusing on the opposite side of
prospecting from the client's sides.
Okay. Also clients want to look at
everything fast. Then everything we are
now thinking we are in any case from the
moment we are starting the execution of
this idea of this project we have
regardly convert the markets because
nowadays
who is the the winner now um from this
point of view not only the people I'm
sorry the companies that are offering or
the best product or the best service
also this is the best execution how many
times maybe you should list one provider
or maybe one mobile app. Okay, there are
10,000 mobile apps for everything. Okay,
sometimes you choose one mobile app.
Maybe you know that they are not the
best. Maybe you know they their app,
maybe the they is not nice. Maybe there
are some technical issues. But why maybe
you you choose because their execution
and then the winning formula nowadays
again is to is the I call it the the
three pillars. Okay, product, service
and execution.
And honestly speaking, how can I say I
bust the BS to the team every single day
when they are not executing fast?
>> That's where the problem lies
>> also when the clients in the chat okay
they pretend to get a reply in one
minute in 2 minutes in 3 minutes they
want to get immediate support
again why because or else they will
start to think this company is not
giving me what I want I will jump to the
other comparator.
>> So we I I didn't want to ask a question.
So in terms of like your um we know that
client expectations are always changing.
What do you say what their main focus is
on now? Would you say it's speed? Is it
access to the platform? Is just platform
experience? And how do you like balance
that? Cuz I think like clients there
they can they're always never happy.
They're always unsatisfied for some
reason or another. Listen like in in our
journey in the forex journey there are
thousands of providers saying 80% of
them like us we provide the same trading
platform which means uh MT5 okay or
maybe some of them they still are
providing MT4 okay there are other
platform but let's say technological
side more or less is the same journey
okay then the clients of course they
want to see the extra benefits you are
providing out of it Okay. How quick is
the withdrawal? How quick is the um the
account approval from the KYC? How is
the the the support?
To me personally, I'm asking to to my
team. Okay, if you have a client is
sending different emails, different
charts, maybe the clients you see that
is facing some challenge, maybe even a
stupid challenge. We still have right
now the 20 25 clients, they don't
understand how to reset the password.
Okay, it's fine. Okay, it's not a
problem. what I'm telling them okay call
the clients why because this is let's
say also the the same Amazon formula how
they become Amazon in the last 30 years
for the customer support don't forget
that uh 30 years ago more or less 30
years ago uh eBay and Amazon they start
together okay eBay it was quite big on
the time bigger than than Amazon but why
Amazon Amazon
for their customer
You have a problem, I will call you.
Want to change the the product? No
problem. 24 hours. Bummer. You you will
change it.
You go to the desk are the small things
that clients see.
Like, okay, there are a lot of
competitors, so many websites that are
on the market that are selling millions.
But which ones are winning? The ones
that the clients feel that there is
always a good support for them.
>> That's true. Like you said earlier, I
think it's definitely that execution as
well because I mean Amazon, they do
everything to the tea and I feel like I
feel like I can't ever cancel my Amazon
Prime subscription. I can't can't do
that.
>> I think and I also believe when
companies have certain strategies like
this, this definitely leads to a lot of
client retention cuz a lot of clients if
they see a new shiny object that offer
more or executing better then it's much
easier to keep the shift. But I think
when you want to ensure that you have
your clients in house and they stay in
house, you have to always keep adding
value to them. That's so can they see
what you actually do provide in my
opinion.
>> Listen me personally. Okay. I I used to
buy alliance since 20 more years. Okay.
To save time. Okay. Maybe I buy
everything online. Part of clothes. I
still go to the shop and buy it talent.
Okay. But everything honestly I used to
buy online order online. Okay. But uh
most of the time it's me I'm ordering
not because I'm advertising Amazon. Okay
guys, let's be clear going into their
websites. Why? Maybe they have prices
maybe even a bit higher.
Maybe but I'm assuring 24 hours I will
get the delivery. You got the point?
>> Yeah.
>> Here we have by the way let's be fair.
Okay. Here we have another provider.
Non. Okay. No no I'm not advertising.
Okay. This way let's see side. Okay.
also non they are amazing me because I'm
ordering a lot from them same service
their service is amazing copy paste from
Amazon you order deliver in 24 hours you
want to replace the chain blah blah blah
you change the product no question take
it to support you get an amazing support
again that are the things where the
clients nowadays they want to see and
they choose the the the companies that
want to work with
>> success then success leave these clues
as well if Amazon are doing that's why
it's that the same company you kind of
copied and followed suit and that's what
led to people what like yourself going
going on that website all the time.
>> Correct.
>> Definitely. And um Jan, I kind of want
to just shift the conversation slightly
into AI as well. So AI is definitely
transforming how financial services
operate. How would you say indeed be
investing using AI to improve trading
outcomes?
>> Okay. Well, nice question guys. Well, we
partner with one provider just a few
months ago to provide uh AI signals.
Okay, now we are in into discussion with
another provider also where the clients
can customize their trading journey. But
of course, don't forget the is is pure
Mel. Okay, unless we get about the
training then of course the people maybe
we have now some some people some
clients know they think that with the AI
they will make free money. Well, there
is no any free money.
was that easy.
>> Okay. The most important okay it that it
can help it can maybe reduce the loss on
the market. It can help to improve the
the trading strategies, the analysis.
But of course, it's uh the most
important things is to clearly say there
is no any free money which means a
passive income because people think that
okay I will invest my money. AI passive
exam blah blah if it was like that no
one was
>> but in my opinion I like to think wealth
management is definitely built on trust.
So how do you kind of maintain the human
touch or automating core systems if you
do?
>> Well consider that not we are not
offering it a service management which
which means asset management. Okay, this
is part of our journey. For sure the uh
AI can support our traders, professional
traders to analyze better to reduce the
loss when you are investing on behalf of
the clients and of course making a wet
management in this case. But of course
uh think to full automate the
investments with the I think between
it's a stupid idea.
uh the will will help for sure but I
don't think will replace at least in a
short
>> term any kind of investment
>> are there any specific examples where AI
has helped clients avoid losses or make
more confident decisions within your
journey
>> um in our journey no but uh you can read
by yourself the what's happening at
Clara do you know Clara right
>> okay six months ago I
They come up with their huge idea.
It's a huge we did a huge idea saying we
cut off 700 products because the AI will
replace our customer support. Okay. One
week ago another article line I saw now
they are uh changing again because they
they understood that the cannot hand
over completely the the customer jour
but you cannot full automate 100% the
the customer support imagine again you
need the support and every time from the
other side you have a robot is replying
to the your call or maybe is replying to
your child or your image. Sometimes
again you want to feel the human touch
and you realize the human touch.
>> Yeah. No, definitely. I definitely
completely agree with you and I think a
lot of companies are looking to move to
the AI but a lot of companies are still
moving too quick in my opinion and it's
I like to always say it's a marathon not
a sprint in this space for sure. I was
going to ask the UE is of course
becoming a major fintech hub. How do you
differentiate it from other dynamic
markets? Listen, we decided to move the
uh the headquarter here in the UAE. Uh
the planet was already prepared between
2018 20. It was just a plan.
I was going to kickstart such planning
during 20120. Then of course the COVID
delayed all the plan
immediately after course
excited the plan. uh without even
imaging again years ago that UE was
starting to focus to expand into the
this fintech crypto I mean five years
ago it was just a dream okay
>> nowadays maybe you notice I think 50% of
the fintech of the of the crypto
companies they a presence in yes there
is a niche competition absolutely yes
there is and now you are saying which is
the competition here So compared to the
provider well um human touch but not for
the okay um me personally I'm quite
present to help any kind of employee
anyone honestly speaking if there are
expos I will attend me person yesterday
there one person uh here at the office
was saying every time I see you at the
at the at the expose how come usually
the sea level they never come the
founder never come
and then I want to see on the ground. I
want to see I want to lead by example.
Me person, I'm the person that at 9:30,
9:45 in the morning, I'm at the office.
If I'm leaving the office at 7:00 p.m.
for X reasons, I'm leaving early. I
mean, because maybe some people they
have this kind kind of mindset, you
know, like the sea level, let's say,
every time out blah blah blah blah. But
I think this can be
the the key strategy. Now coming back to
to your question compared to the other
uh companies again be uh every time next
to the to the team try to help everyone
to achieve and their targets that see
every employee succeed not allow the
employee because honestly speaking also
we have our turnover
for those again they're not achieving
the result but okay this is just a
business part.
So Jar just touching on obviously the
business part and with the UAE being
quite a dynamic industry what role does
ruary compliance play and how do you
still um ensure that you meet those
requirements
>> listen here um general the market in the
US is not mature enough of okay compared
with with Europe from a lot of aspects
but maybe it's a a good point let me
answer widely to your question okay but
maybe it's a it's a good point because
okay there giving here a space to
everyone to to grow to build their their
business. the here uh the regulator is
not so let me try to not offend the
European regulators
>> not so much red tape
>> okay they are not so tricky okay let me
let me use this one because now again
nowadays the companies what they are
looking for is also a bit of flexibility
a good idea to not be extremely
supervised and of course decide to run
away
you know this in UK in Europe a lot of
companies they run because it now coming
back to your uh question sorry maybe I
lost I lost
I was just um asking what role does
regry compliance comp play in the UAE
and how do you ensure you keep up with
those regulations
>> listen that you are actively um working
from this point of view I mean
respecting the the regulatory
requirements
I'm happy in that in UE they are
focusing a lot to improve rings and that
regulator the similar report they are
learning a lot what what I also what I
noticed they are hiring a lot of people
from Europe and the UK to improve this
aspect okay and it's good because this
is which means they their focus is to be
a major uh markets from the regulatory
perspective
UAE 10 years ago they are going a lot
they are focusing a lot today we will
see the the last emails I can tell you
right now I can to show that it's live
okay where is is okay. Regarding you see
the the the Fatka and the CRS
connections,
you see that they they their focus is to
not just attract companies or maybe give
free regulations. Not at all. Is again
to attract business. The aim here is to
become a fintech hub and for sure they
will at the same time they are improving
their internal systems to all the
companies alliance but at the same time
not be so strictly like the European and
UK side because again the companies they
want okay for sure get supervised blah
blah blah but getting a bit of a space
that's not like the the other regulators
that maybe if you make one mistake you
get fined You make two mistakes, one
million is fine. You know like look like
again when you are driving a car okay
imagine the speed limit it's 80
kilometers when you you reach 8.1 fine
>> a little leeway definitely I was going
to ask you a question slightly a little
bit off topic I know last week you
attended the 62 anniversary of Africa
day and I've kind of seen within the
news that Africa is becoming a bigger
hub in the fintech space. I kind of want
to get your view on what you're seeing
in terms of the investment that's
happening in Africa.
>> Yes. Well, considered good um presence
in in Africa and Nigeria till a few
months ago and now we are focusing to
expand uh in South Africa
and of course the backline of our local
regulation. Africa will be a good
market. Okay. It's still growing but to
to become a really good market maybe
they will need minimum 20 years. Yeah.
>> Okay. But I'm sure 100% that in 20 years
a lot of business will come from from
Africa because it's a big market in
terms of extension and in terms of
population. Again don't forget after
China after India and of course the the
sad countries like Bangladesh and
Pakistan Africa. Which one market?
>> Definitely Africa. Yeah. No 100%. I
definitely agree with that.
Al I was also going to ask as well know
DB as as you kind of mentioned you're
investing very heavily in Middle East
and other other than South Africa where
is next on the global expansion road
map? Uh well, we are focusing in uh Asia
and Latan
uh with uh country managers locally and
in some countries also having a local
presence, local license and again we are
watching our competitors uh because
there are a lot of big competitors in
the market. The most important things is
to also to watch where we are going and
the also the direction we are taking you
know to also adjust our strategy plan
for the coming years as an estimation
more or less I think in one year from
now we will get five six new license
on the grounds to expand
and in the end the market will say who
is the winner right
>> absolutely so I didn't want to ask so
obviously You just mentioned you're
looking to expand into Asia under the
Latan region. What actually makes those
regions attractive to you?
>> Well, Asia is already a mature market.
Okay. I mean, they're growing. Yes, of
course indeed. But the the idea is to
expand honestly not just in one region
in different regions and of course from
the regulational perspective because uh
a lot of companies I mean like in our
case uh they have some license and they
have some presence my focus my aim for
the coming three years to become a
worldwide company which mean like with
the 15 with 20 real office on the drums
and giving you know a different uh
perception to the clients to our
stakeholders again that you are not just
an online company
>> I was also going to ask you know looking
ahead what AIdriven innovation are you
most excited about rolling out in the
next 12 to 18 months or that you've seen
>> I don't think the answer for it's an
arts forecast
>> perfect and also to as we look into that
2020 what shift do you think fintech
leaders should be preparing for
>> well This is another nice question. But
again, don't forget the the end of the
trading uh is getting combined with the
crypto. Now a lot of crypto companies
they are acquiring trading companies.
Okay? Because end of the day both
markets are quite similar the the
traders or the the pure or stock forex
traders. So the crypto traders you know
more or less it's quite similar market
then they are going to get combined all
together and
coming back to your question regarding
the eye innovation for the future
honestly I can't predict I hope again
the eye will not hand over
our
>> course in our opinion we always think
it's about AI complimenting
people not taking over and a lot of
people have this fear installed that AI
is here to take over and replace the
jobs and replace human in touch. We
think human touch is never going
anywhere and AI is just here to
essentially help compliment
maybe and even Janice even yesterday I
saw
>> I saw a news report that um they're
building an AI tool that can help people
translate what dogs are saying and when
I saw that I said this this game is
really changing isn't it and they got
valued at a billion dollars as well
>> anyway I can imagine like I definitely
imagine are you seeing changes within
how companies are structuring ing their
tech and product teams to ensure that
they are keeping pace with new market
trends or or the way the market is
going.
>> Well, uh
another hard question to to reply here.
Okay. uh but listen in from our sides uh
we are focusing and also investing a lot
from the tech aspects to uh to give some
uh big uh change I don't want to now go
deeply regarding our project plan uh and
try to uh be out of the box in terms of
company and to give something quite new
innovative to our clients because again
nowadays
Uh this is part of our journey you know
think out of the box new ideas new
products for the clients new solutions
and that's it.
>> No definitely 100%.
Um and I was going to ask so when firms
try to scale AI automation from from
your awareness what do you think are the
most common pitfalls they make?
Hm. Automation. Listen, we are running a
lot of things internally. You are
improving the a lot of the but honestly
speaking uh just to help us
>> uh to improve our performance but not at
all to replace honestly speaking. No,
no, no, no. Again, me I'm using on a
daily basis. Okay.
>> Because yes, it helps a lot. It improves
a lot. But to replace um I'm still a bit
uh old style. A lot of people they are
automating 90% of their business
journey. Calls, emails, messages, auto
reply, blah blah blah. Uh me honestly
not. I review an email. I want to reply
to the email. I don't want to let DI
reply for me or maybe automatically
set my agenda.
>> I saw some people they have their agenda
set 90. How come?
>> That's my opinion.
>> People are lazy.
Maybe in a few years. Okay. Maybe I will
I will try to adapt. Maybe but not for
now. Maners are not ready yet for that.
>> Yeah. No, definitely. And um last but
not least, if you had one message for
fintech founders or CCOs today, what
would you tell them to focus on first?
>> It's a mandatory question.
It is.
Okay. Do you have another question?
>> Oh, a a small gem that you you you'll be
willing to share.
[Music]
>> Well, guys, there are a lot of uh
projects uh on the on the plans, but
maybe if we'll have another uh session
in a few months, uh I'll be happy to
share. Okay. Yeah, man. That's
absolutely
>> listen. Usually what me personally I I'm
uh I used to uh apply let's say the uh
the iceberg uh uh let's say plan what I
mean show 5% of the project 10% of the
project what you are doing and work
everything under the rad regarding the
new project new agenda new things to do
new products blah blah blah uh because
even in internally between the
departments
>> because you know after will be like a
surprise on the market when you will
launch something new
>> can you hear me
>> oh yeah can we can hear yes
>> yes okay
>> and that's it
>> yeah no that
>> I don't want to share anything anything
out of it okay
>> yeah I like that methodology say 5% out
of water the rest is all below when when
it when when it comes out it'll come
out.
>> Yeah, of course, of course, of course.
It's better to keep the news or else
it's not any news, right?
>> No, 100%. I agree. You know, this has
been a very very um interesting
discussion. We thoroughly did enjoy it.
Um for our viewers listening, where can
they find out more about yourself and
also DB Investing?
>> Well, guys, it was a really pleasure
again to speak to all of you. Maybe it
will be nice let's say if we will speak
again in six months
>> you know uh compare again in six months
the our let's say to the conversation
and you know cross check maybe in six
months the AI will end over our life
I'm joking okay guys again it was
extremely pleasure to to speak to all of
you wish you all the best guys for
podcast and uh let's keep in touch.
>> Most definitely. Much appreciated.
That's another episode of the Navvice
Chef Jar. We really appreciate your time
today. Thank you,
>> guys. Thanks. And all the best to Navi.
Okay.