Lorilyn Wilson, CPA is our special guest for this unusual episode. We bypass the moral argument to examine the numbers around abortion and attempt to determine the impact of the Supreme Court’s recent decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization.
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The Cloud Accounting Podcast is the #1 accounting and bookkeeping podcast in the world! Join Blake Oliver and David Leary at the intersection of accounting and technology for a weekly news roundup, plus interviews with industry leaders.
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Lorilyn: And so, what I say and what I have been saying is if you want to reduce abortion, simply making it illegal is not necessarily going to do what you want it to do. Could you have somewhat of a drop? Yeah. But if you're really serious about it, there are other policies and things you can do to truly get that rate to drop.
David Leary: Coming to you weekly from the on-pay recording studio, this is The Cloud Accounting Podcast.
[00:00:59] Introduction and some background
Blake: Welcome to The Cloud Accounting Podcast. I'm Blake Oliver.
David: And I'm David Leary.
Lorilyn: And I am Lorilyn Wilson.
Blake: Thank you so much for joining us today. It's great to have you.
Lorilyn: Oh, thanks for inviting me on.
Blake: Well, I feel like I should explain why you're on the show today. Yeah. So, it is Sunday evening. Thank you, by the way, for taking time out of your Sunday evening. I feel like that's especially valuable time. The news dropped on Friday about the Supreme Court decision and abortion in this country. And that's a sort of news that just dominates the national conversation. This is taking over all of our social media feeds. This is the thing that everyone's talking about. And Dave and I do this show weekly, right? We talk weekly about the news. Sometimes it's about current events, and accounting happens to fall into that. And we talk about that in the context of accounting and finance and technology.
And I was thinking to myself, "How could we not talk about this this week?" Right? How could we just do a show on Saturday, like we normally do, and not have this be in the conversation because it's like on my mind? And so, I was talking about this with my wife, having a drink while you watch the sunset, And I was telling her what I wanted to talk about. And at first, she was like, "No, you cannot talk about this on your show. You're going to destroy your show." And then we had a conversation, and actually, she's like, "Okay. Actually, I see how you could somehow make this an Accounting and finance-related discussion. But it can't just be you and David. It cannot be two middle-aged white guys talking about abortion on their podcast." Right?
And I said, "Well, this is actually very appropriate because Lorilyn Wilson just launched her own podcast, and I've wanted to have her on the show to promote it. And also, the day we launched your show, that's when the Supreme Court decided to issue their decision, totally pre-empting all of our news. So, I said, "Let's get Lorilyn on the show. We'll balance this thing out. We'll have somebody who's actually made human lives, right, on the show to talk about this issue.
Lorilyn: Yes. Two of them.
Blake: Two of them, right. And I think there is an Accounting and finance angle to this. There's a numbers angle to everything.
David: And when you approached me, Blake about doing this, you kind of caught my guard via text, and I was like, "I didn't see the angles." And then you called me on the phone and explained it. But after the last two shootings, I deep-dived four, five, six, seven hours on tax law and guns and the money and the economic impact. And so, you could argue all these things because tax law makes social policy and vice versa. Social policy dictates tax law. So how do you not talk about these issues on The Cloud Accounting Podcast? That they are very, very Accounting related things, and you just reminded me of that the other night. And that's why Lorilyn. And you're right. We probably can't do this just on our own. Regardless of my own personal experiences in this topic, I think you're right. You have to have female on the show.
Blake: Yeah. So, debits and credits are not just accounting its life. So, we're going to talk about this important issue in the context of that. I have something to say about that. But first, Lorilyn, here we have been talking for several minutes. So, do you have anything you want to say about this?
Lorilyn: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know what? I think I should just first start by saying, I used to be like... If we go back 20 years, I'm 37 right now. So, if we go back to my late teens, early 20s, I was staunchly a pro-life super right-wing, conservative person. So, I've seen kind of both sides of the aisle, and it's been what I would say, a slow kind of meticulous journey to the other side. I come from it with a perspective of understanding the other side. So, it's like everything they say I used to both believe, and I can understand why they hold those viewpoints. But for me personally, this evolution happened just from me stepping outside of my bubble and educating myself and listening to stories and meeting people who grew up in situations a lot different than me.
And part of that journey was me realizing like, "Wow, I was really in a bubble." A very safe bubble that, for a time, there was a part of me who could just never comprehend like, "Why would anyone ever choose to do that?" I don't understand. And then you hear the stories, and you're like, "Okay, put me in that situation." Instead of the very safe, upper-middle-class, white upbringing I had, and then things don't look so different anymore. And so that's kind of been like my empathetic journey, coming full circle, of understanding really what the other side is, which is not... And I'm trying to word things in a way that I don't want to offend people.
I'm not out here to offend people who are happy about it. I'm not trying to do that because I think there's a lot of middle ground to be had. And what kind of pre-empted Blake inviting me on the show was I did a TikTok video kind of talking about some of the numbers of abortions because it's been my belief for a pretty long time now that the issue is never the issue. It's not people having abortions. It's why are they having them? And it's kind of working backwards and then solving for the actual problem and not this kind of band aid solution of, "Oh, if we just make it illegal, all the problems go away."
Blake: So, were you raised in a religious household?
Lorilyn: Yeah. Yeah. And here's the thing. My parents are still very religious, and I actually too would consider myself religious. But it looks a lot different than it did 20 years ago. And when I say a lot different, if I were to use a phrase, I would say, I try to recklessly love people. And that is just going to be my default. Not going to try and judge people for stuff. It's like, you know what, if I don't agree with them or if they're doing something I don't understand, my default will just be to recklessly love them and let the chips fall where they may.
Blake: I was raised Catholic, and I was the president of the Young Republicans Club in my high school.
Lorilyn: So, we've had a similar journey.
Blake: So yeah. I had an interesting political journey when I went to college. I saw different viewpoints. I went to a Catholic high school. I was raised believing life begins at conception. Right. That's what I was taught. And so, like you, Lorilyn, I feel like I can see both sides because I've believed both sides. at different times. And I feel like I don't like either extreme. What about you, David?
David: I was raised Catholic. But this is never a big issue, per se, from a belief standpoint. But with my previous wife, we had all that fertility issues. And so, you start going in that path, you start thinking about embryos differently and heartbeats and cells differently and what you consider or not consider. And throughout that journey, we actually had to terminate a pregnancy at 17 weeks.
Lorilyn: Oh, geez.
David: And the way it's looking now with the change of the scope of Roe v. Wade, in theory, Arizona has now or is on that 15-week March. So, what we did would be considered illegal now. And I get it, right? We had to make a decision, and at the end of the day, it was our decision, very private decision. But I do get the other argument, the other side. I held a 17-week-old-old baby in my hands. You know kind of a... I understand this when-is-too-late argument. Right. But when push comes to shove, it can't be legislated. Every individual has to make this call, and it's not easy. It's not even a right call. Right. It's not right and not wrong. It's just every individual has to have the freedom to just do that. Right. It's just not okay for somebody else to dictate on that on somebody else.
And we get the tax part of it that I learned about when that happened later on. We can really pick lower lens brain about the tax issues of this. But my perspective was really influenced a lot by having to do it myself on the... That's not the right words, but going through the experience myself and on top of that, different infertility things, because you think about it a little bit differently, right, as far as what you consider... Because a lot of them, I think you call like a chemical pregnancy. But yes, there's a pregnancy, but-
Blake: Right. Well, and-
David: ... it's so early. Where does that fall in on?
Blake: And for me, I have zero personal experience with any of this. And it wasn't until recently, I feel, that people started really sharing their stories. And I didn't realize until I looked at the numbers just how common it is. So, this is what I want to talk about today is, David, I totally respect your feelings on this issue. And that argument of the personal freedom versus this is a human life thing, we don't need to have that on this show, right? That's what's going on everywhere else. Right? There's a lot of places you can have that argument. You can go on-
Lorilyn: And then-
Blake: You can go on Facebook and have that argument. Right.
Lorilyn: Yeah. And that's a philosophical discussion.
Blake: So, what I would like to do is talk about the numbers, so get an understanding of what the situation is, and then the impact this will have on people from a number’s standpoint. And like Lorilyn, like you said, this idea that if you want to reduce abortions, what's actually the most effective way to do this. Right? Asking the why question. Why are people having them?
[00:11:25] Some of the actual numbers concerning abortions
David: Before you get into the why, should we just talk about the numbers that actually exist? I think I saw something this week that one in four women you meet will have had an abortion in her history. it's that common.
Blake: One in four.
David: Yeah, one in four.
Blake: So, I didn't see that stat, but it doesn't seem crazy to me because I saw a stat from, is it the Guttmacher, Guttmacher.
Lorilyn: Gut, good. It feels like it's Guttmacher.
Blake: Well, I mean, if I was in my German class in high school, it would be Guttmacher Institute. It has varied from year to year, but about 20% of pregnancies end in an abortion, something like that in the last few years. Right. Which is actually a lot more than I would've guessed. If you'd just had me on and asked me, "Hey Blake, what percentage do you think it is?" I probably wouldn't have guessed 20%. So, it's actually fairly common.
Lorilyn: Yeah. And I have, right here, the two most common causes people give for why they've done it, why they decide because okay... So first off, almost every person who gets an abortion, it's a result of an unplanned pregnancy. Because there are abortions that happen in instances like David was describing where it's very much, they want the baby. But because of viability issues, they aren't able to carry the baby to term and have to terminate it, which is absolutely awful. And so, for the people though who it's unplanned and they choose to abort, their number two causes, they say are, number one, they're not ready for a baby, and number two, so 25% say that they're not ready for a baby, and 23% say they can't afford a baby. And-
Blake: Wait, let's say that again, 25%.
Lorilyn: Say they're not ready for a baby.
Blake: And then-
Lorilyn: So, this is probably because of their age and most likely because of they're in the middle of their schooling or early in their professional career.
Blake: Got it. So quarter, not ready. And then the other number.
Lorilyn: Can't afford it.
Blake: And what is that number?
Lorilyn: 23% of people said they can't afford it.
Blake: 23%. Okay. So about almost even, right? A quarter and a quarter can't afford. And what's the other 50%?
Lorilyn: It was all kind of random reasons. Another one, and I'm pulling this a little off the top of my head. I'm going to be off by a couple percentage points, or I might be spot on it is that actually 48% of people who end up getting abortions were actually on contraceptives when it happened.
Blake: Really? 48% were on contraceptives and got pregnant and then... Okay. And they needed an abortion.
Lorilyn: Yes. Because their contraceptive failed or they didn't use it correctly, and that's a whole... We can talk about that in a little bit of kind of the education of people not understanding reproductive health and contraceptives and how to use them correctly.
Blake: Yeah. Well, that is a very high number, like yeah, half, right. Almost half. It's like your contraceptive failed. And then what are you going to do?
[00:14:28] Thank you to our sponsor, RelayFi
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[00:15:42] Any other important numbers on the state of abortions?
Blake: Are there any other numbers that are like, we need to know about just the state of abortion?
David: I think I saw an article from NBC in February that said half of all US abortions are done by pills now early on.
Blake: Yes. That's interesting.
Lorilyn: Yes. I came across that. Yeah.
Blake: And so that is an FDA-authorized medication. You get it typically by mail. That's often how it's delivered. I mean, you can go get it at the pharmacy too.
David: [crosstalk] this is plan B or some variations of.
Blake: Right. And it originally was up to six weeks, and now it's up to 10 weeks, I think, is what the FDA says. So basically, in the first 10 weeks of your pregnancy, you get this pill, you take it, and then that ends the pregnancy.
David: And then the only other thing I saw some crazy stat on, and I don't know, it developed full context. I don't know if it was just US or worldwide or what, but the majority of the abortions are getting done by people of Christian faiths.
Lorilyn: Yes. I saw that. I think it was 54% was the number I came across today.
David: Something like that.
Blake: You're talking about the doctors?
David: No, the people getting-
Lorilyn: No, the getting the procedure.
Blake: Oh, people getting it. So, the majority of people getting abortions say they're Christians.
Blake: Interesting. Okay.
David: And that's a whole nother deep dive on psychology and the dogma, the church, and the shame of getting pregnant and having to hide that and getting an abortion. That's a lot to run wrap in that. But it's just from a number standpoint, I thought that was an interesting, that that's the majority of the abortions.
Blake: Well, it's an interesting thing to know because, right, most Christian churches, I think, right, or faiths, I mean, there's a huge variety, but I feel like most would say don't get an abortion, and yet and yet that's the stat, 54% are Christian who get abortions.
Lorilyn: Yeah. Well, and two, if you talk about kind of sexual education and states that teach abstinence-only education, which of course, because of the religious beliefs of the politicians, you have the highest rates of teen pregnancy.
Blake: Yeah. Right, right. Because when people don't know how to use contraceptives or that they exist or how-
Blake: ... even people get pregnant.
Lorilyn: Yes. Or what days. Here, I'll ask you... David will probably know this. I'll ask you Blake. I bet David knows if he's done the IVF. How many days out of the month can a woman get pregnant?
Blake: If you're on an IVF?
Lorilyn: No, no, no. Just in general.
Blake: Just naturally. Right. If you're not taking any-
Lorilyn: I bet David knows this, but-
Blake: I'm glad you didn't ask me, Lorilyn.
David: [crosstalk] could listen to this podcast. So as far as they're concerned, it is every day.
Lorilyn: Well, I'll give you a hint. It's not every day.
Blake: Okay. It’s like four days.
David: It's five to seven, right?
Lorilyn: It's around ovulation. I think it's like five days before and then two days after is kind of your window-
Blake: Oh, I was a little low. So, like six days.
Lorilyn: ... that you could do it. But I mean, some people don't realize that. So, it's like some of... If you are planning, you don't want to get pregnant. Part of what you can do is actually just track your ovulation. And you can see, "Okay. These are my high-likely-to-get-pregnant days. I should not, or I should take extra precautions on these days. But it's like this is stuff people don't know. They're not taught it. And as a result, then you get unplanned pregnancies.
Blake: So, I think that's a good baseline of knowledge. Prepping for this has taught me a whole lot that I didn't know. And you just gave me some new numbers I had no idea about. What is the percentage of contraceptive failure? Does anyone know that?
Lorilyn: If it's used correctly, most of them are like 90.
Blake: Very high, right?
Lorilyn: I heard a doctor today, OB-GYN. I was watching this TikTok video. He was talking about IUDs, and it's like 99.7%, or it's... Yeah. It's like only 0.3% of chance of people get pregnant off. So, if you use it correctly, it's very high. I don't want to get too descriptive, but... Oh, go ahead.
David: Perspective. On this whole 99.9%, right? That means for any of these cloud apps you use, that means it's down three days a year. You put this in perspective or if you ever buy 99.99% dust-free cat letter, that explains what 99.99% means. It's not as perfect. It's not even close to perfect in this sense.
Blake: That's saying every time you have sex, there's a 0.01% chance, or it could be 0.1, right? Which is over a lot of people doing it a lot of times is a meaningful number to us.
Lorilyn: Yeah. And a lot of people just assume this is 100% effective when it's not... But again, it goes back to the education piece, knowing that this is not 100% effective, no matter what. And if you really don't want to get pregnant, then you need to take second, third precautions on top of that.
[00:21:16] Do abortion bans/restrictions actually reduce the number of abortions?
Blake: So Lorilyn.
Blake: Do abortion bans, restrictions reduce abortions?
Lorilyn: Statistically, no, they do not.
Lorilyn: So back to Guttmacher, what they did with the WHO, the World Health Organization was just, from, I think it's 2015 to 2019, and Guttmacher has been around since 68. They're kind of the leader of studying abortion policies and statistics worldwide. So, they're kind of the source for it, but they did a joint study and basically found that if you take the countries with the loosest abortion laws, and then they took all the countries with the strictest abortion laws and compared their rates, they were the exact same rates.
And so, what I say and what I have been saying is if you want to reduce abortion, simply making it illegal is not necessarily going to do what you want it to do. Could you have somewhat of a drop? Yeah. But if you're really serious about it, there are other policies and things you can do to truly get that rate to drop. So that's always been kind of my argument behind it.
Blake: So that is fascinating. So, you're saying in countries with different restrictions, some are very permissive, some are very restrictive, the abortion rate is essentially the same.
David: But I think I even saw here in the states when Rob v. Wade was enacted or upheld originally, it's been on the decline since for the last 50 years, just in our own country. Is this a true stat? That's the thing making sense of [crosstalk].
Lorilyn: Well, it kind of went up and then peaked in 81, and then it's been going down pretty much for 40 years. And then it was pointed out to me-
Blake: COVID made it go up again.
Lorilyn: ... on Twitter in the past three years that it's actually gone up a little bit in the US, and Guttmacher was talking about it. And they basically said like, "We don't know yet why this was happening." In my head, my first thing I think of was like, "Well, there was a pandemic for two years, and people were probably afraid, and they probably couldn't get to their doctor. There was probably delaying getting their contraceptions."
Blake: We knew people who had babies during COVID, and there were husbands who weren't able to be there with their wives having the baby. That was some of the situations in the really bad time. So yeah. To me, it makes sense, the rate would go up.
Lorilyn: Yeah. And especially, not to bring politics into it too much, but it's a highly charged issue. If you are a person who is more left-leaning and you are seeing how people on the opposite side of the aisle are acting in terms of it doesn't seem like they're taking simple precautions that could keep COVID from spreading, there could be a lot of fear of, "Oh my gosh, if I get pregnant and I get COVID, this could turn out really bad."
Lorilyn: We don't know what happens to babies yet. It's too new. So, I could very much see how kind of the political things that were going on could influence people to.
Blake: Yeah. Remember Zika virus.
Lorilyn: Oh my gosh.
Blake: How freaked out people got about that; I don't want a baby with a shrunken head kind of situation?
Blake: We didn't know that might not happen with COVID.
[00:24:38] What does actually reduce abortions
Blake: So that makes sense. So, what does actually reduce... Let me set it up this way. So, one thing that's interesting about my family is we are a family that... my extended family, that's very divergent in political issues. So, I have a side of the family, my wife's side of the family that are total, LA, California liberals. Right. Can't even contemplate anyone seeing it a different way. And then we got the family up in Sacramento that are farmers, and my aunt is a anti-abortion activist and literally goes out. And from what I understand of her activities and traveling around is lobbies legislators on this issue in the state.
David: I think if people start looking at their own families, everybody's going to let's talk like that. I know I can say the same, right?
Blake: Yeah. Right.
David: We're all Americans at the end. Right? We're all going to have different beliefs and views.
Blake: So, my aunt very clearly believes that restricting abortions will save lives, and that's her life's mission. I mean, she's been doing this for decades, right? And the question is like, does it actually help? And what you said, Lorilyn, those stats make me think, "Well, maybe it doesn't." Right? So, if you want to reduce setting aside the argument of whether or not it's right or wrong, if you just practically were accountants for practical, right. If you just want to do this practically, if you want to reduce abortions, what's the best way to actually do it.
That leads us to the question is like, why do women and men, right, they're partners, why do women... Why do they get them? And to me per, I think it's a very personal question, right? I'll just start with mine, and then we can talk about yours and the stats. But for me personally, just one child is very expensive.
[00:26:32] The actual financial cost of raising a child
Blake: I'm very honest about it. It's like financial. My quality of life, our quality of life as a family would change dramatically. So, it would be nice. I would like to have a bigger family. But for me, financially, it would be a real hard thing to do.
Lorilyn: And I can actually put a number to that of what that cost is.
Lorilyn: The average cost of raising a child is $267,000.
David: So, it's gone up in the last seven to 10 years. And then is it still true-
Lorilyn: [crosstalk] a million dollars.
David: ... it's 50 grand more if you have a girl?
Lorilyn: I didn't see that statistic, but that would make sense.
Blake: So that is for a middle-class family, the average family.
Blake: Do you know what it is if you go up in income?
Lorilyn: Oh no, it didn't break up those numbers.
Blake: Yeah. So, I saw a chart, future cost of raising a child. This is from the USDA. And I think this was like 2015. And it shows that first of all, it's gone up. Or no, this is over time. So, it's not going up over time. This is going up over the years of the child. So that quarter million-dollar number, right, is kind of the average for middle class. If you go up to parents making more than $107,000, so the family, which is, I think, a lot of our audience, right. We're accountants, right. Accountants tend to do pretty well. That cost approaches a half a million dollars-
Lorilyn: Holy Moly.
Blake: ... per child. 450, $4,770 in 2015.
Blake: Yeah. So just round that up with inflation, now we're talking half a mill. That's a lot. So why don't people want to have children, right.
Lorilyn: Because they, like they said, what was it? 23% of people said they can't afford to. And here's the thing. It's not like our government or state governments have been doing a great job of building a social safety net for these women, have been passing laws to get childcare costs covered, to get actual maternal and paternal leave that all these other kind of developed countries have. And it's like, yeah, can you blame women? Because you're not actually doing the things that would make them feel like they could afford to do this.
[00:28:50] Thank you to our sponsor, Synder
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[00:30:04] How much time off do we give new mothers federally?
Blake: Lorilyn, how much paid time off do we give to mothers in this country, federally?
Lorilyn: It's $0.0.
Blake: $0. Yeah. I learned that seven years ago when we had Thomas. It's kind of amazing. So-
David: It's a complete luxury of people that have a nice job at a tech company that has nice benefits.
Blake: Which is [crosstalk] benefits.
David: If you get to take time off when you have a child, it is a luxury and a privilege. And to state it isn't true, it would be a complete lie. And you're right. There's so many things beyond just the actual cost, right? I'm not going to have time to raise my child. Right. I'm not going to be able to finish my education.
Lorilyn: Time and money.
David: Right. There's all these types of things. It's not just the cost of a child. That's all the other stuff.
Lorilyn: Yeah. Well, and actually-
Blake: Well, and-
Lorilyn: Oh, I was going to say-
Blake: No please, Lorilyn. Go ahead.
Lorilyn: So, you know what, I was reading an article, oh gosh, I wanted to give him credit, that Jeff [inaudible] on Twitter linked under my TikTok video. And he's like, here's some link of the economic numbers kind of behind what you're talking about. So, this was a marketplace interview with Jason Lindo, who is a professor of economics Texas A&M. And he was talking about the actual economic impact on women. And the people who, as always, take the brunt of it are lower-income women and women of colour. These women, they can't get out from under it because they literally have all these things working against them. But it's like without access to the abortion, then they are usually disadvantaged in their educational careers or early careers.
And then you have this cost of this baby. But you have this expensive baby, and you don't have a good paying job now to raise that baby, because you had to give up your education or your career early on. And then these children are being raised in poverty, and then it's like this cycle just keeps happening over and over and over again.
Blake: Just the cost of childcare is staggering. So obviously, my experience is not typical because I worked for one of those tech companies David was talking about when we had Thomas, and I had benefits and everything. And we were able to afford whatever we needed. And we were living in LA. Our childcare, I think when he was an infant, because Samantha works. She went back to work. It was like close to $2,000 a month. Right. And I hear $1,000 to $2,000 a month is not unusual.
Lorilyn: It's not bad. Yeah. That's not bad. If you're in a big city like Seattle, I was reading some... I think it was some Twitter person I follow. They’re a PhD. And I think they were saying that in where they were was $3,800 a month.
Blake: $3,800 a month.
Blake: Yeah. So right. So that's like a serious financial consideration. We were in a situation where we were lucky that that just meant giving up vacations. Right. It didn't mean or there's a lot of people for whom, even at the lower end of what you're spending, it's several hundred dollars a week. And that might be like a huge chunk of what you make. You just don't have how you do it. I mean, there are programs for some people in need, but I think we can agree that broadly as a country, we don't really offer a lot of support.
Blake: Until your kid's in kindergarten, it's pretty hard to get any of those childcare costs covered. And it's not like the job's available to... Working class people pay a lot. At least, now they're starting to a little bit more, but $15 an hour, right, doesn't go so far, and you have to pay for all that.
Lorilyn: Yeah. Well, and you know what's interesting is obviously it needs to be legislated. There needs to be some type of paid leave. But I've seen these bigger companies telling employees, "Hey, if you need to travel for abortion care, we'll cover that." And my thought though is, well, will you also cover maternity and paternity care?
Blake: They should.
Lorilyn: Exactly. But here's the thing.
Blake: So, this is the-
Lorilyn: Abortion care is going to be far cheaper, which is like, I see what they're doing, but it's like, "Okay. Well, actually-"
Blake: Oh, that's kind of messed up.
Blake: Oh my God. That's really screwed.
David: Wow. You're thinking like they've made a decision on this, like, "Hey, we're going to offer this because it'll save us money on this end." And now that they do make decisions like that, right, with healthcare, right? This is why they give... A lot of companies, for every dollar they spend on gym incentives, right, or hiring a personal trainer for the employer, for all the employees, they get a 3:1 ratio on the backend from a health insurance cost for every dollar they spend on the front end for exercise and wellness programs. So, people do that math right now.
Blake: Yeah. No. I wouldn't-
David: I didn't figure out this way until Lorilyn just brought it up. It seems very decevious, but people do that math at those levels.
Blake: So, it's a perfect example of the calculus that happens when you're a parent or you're a corporation that employs future parents. The cost of a child these days is so enormous that people are... I think that's a big reason why our generation is having fewer children. Right. Lorilyn, I'm 38. So, we are at the early edge of the millennial generation there. And I just see it with all my friends. Right? Very few people are planning on having honestly even two children. Right. It's like one and done in a lot of cases. And then-
David: That's the natural growth of a country. As the country ages and you produce less labour if you want to think about it that way. It's kind of a natural evolution of countries. The replacement rate drops over time.
Blake: Right. But that's exactly what we don't want as a country. It's funny because we talk on our show about the great resignation, the talent shortage all the time, right? This is just getting worse, and it's been getting worse over decades because of the same trends we're talking about right now, the cost.
Lorilyn: Yeah. Yeah. When people are like, "Oh, are you ever going to have another?" And I'm like, "In this economy? Who can afford to?"
Blake: You already have two. You already have two, Lorilyn.
Lorilyn: I know.
Blake: You've done your job. You've done your duty. Who the heck is asking you that question?
Lorilyn: People who don't have to take care of them. That's exactly who.
Blake: Oh my gosh. Yeah
[00:36:56] The disconnect in the current environment
David: And so, let's get some taxes. Because I've always had it every time that went through my situation 20 years ago. If I said this tax issue with this whole thing. Throwing these taxes in.
Blake: But before we just tie up the bow? Can we just tie the bow on this whole... So, this issue, this is the thing that strikes me as the strangest, most disconnected thing in the whole current environment is that the party that is anti-abortion is also anti-paid parental leave anti-paid childcare, anti-all these-
David: Anti-public schools.
Lorilyn: Sometimes anti-contraceptives, which I haven't put this fact in yet. There's one low-cost solution to reducing abortions that's proven. I think the statistic I read was it reduced abortions by like 68% to 72% is just no cost contraceptives providing free birth control.
Blake: Meaning if the government provides free-
David: Government will provide vasectomies for boys. That would work too.
Blake: Just your boys, David
David: Just all at this point. I have a daughter too, you know.
Blake: Oh yeah, exactly. So yeah. That to me doesn't... I mean, I understand some people have religious objections to contraceptives.
Lorilyn: Yeah. Then they don't have to take them.
Blake: Right. Yeah. But they want to tell other people what to do as well. But I mean, just from a practical standpoint, wouldn't you rather have people taking contraceptives than getting abortions, right? Lesser evils, if you have to put it that way. I mean, anyway. So, I think we can agree that there are ways financially.
[00:38:41] The cost of actually giving birth
Blake: Oh wait, we didn't even talk about the cost of having a baby. Right? Actually, giving birth. So, I saw a stat validated by my wife who said, "Yeah, that sounds right." That it's $5,000 to $11,000 just to have the baby, the delivery. And that's even if you have insurance.
Lorilyn: Oh, yeah. And that would be if it was perfect. There's no complications, no extras, we're going to call it.
Lorilyn: No C-section, no preeclampsia, nothing.
Blake: Now, that's a lot of money. Oh yeah, David.
David: I was going to say, and it's the same, whether you take a baby home or not, and that's where there's a big tax issue I've always had with this whole thing.
Blake: We're going to talk about that. But the thing that I always thought about... The thing that I, not always, just in the last day thought about. It's weird is like, if you're going to restrict the liberty of women and say you can't have an abortion, at least pay for the delivery, right? At least.
Lorilyn: Yeah. And what's wild is other countries are like, "Wait, this isn't free for you." They think that's insane that we have to pay for our ticket birth.
Blake: Now, the counterargument is like, "Oh, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place."
Lorilyn: Well, and this is kind of what I liken that to. Okay. First off, let's stop pretending that the only reason people have sex is just to have kids, because otherwise you would have sex like twice and then be done for the rest of your life. And too, just biologically, most of the month, you can't even get pregnant anyways. But it's like saying that just because you consent to sex, you consent to pregnancy, and this is going to be my example. I was last month... Oh no, I think I told you, Blake. Last month I was driving out in my nice 2021 car, staying in my lane, not speeding. Boom. Get T-boned, rolled, my car's totaled.
Blake: This is true. And you got hit hard. That car looked messed up.
Lorilyn: Yeah. It totally-
Blake: I mean, I'm glad you were in a big car.
Lorilyn: If I would've been in a sedan, there would've been no more Lauren. That's the reality. But it's like saying, "Okay, so we know driving, there is a risk that you could be in an accident. Someone could hit you, even if you do everything right. If you follow all the rules, you're doing everything you're supposed to, that is still a risk." But it's who would ever come up to me and be like, "Well, that's just a consequence. Your accident was actually just a consequence of you driving. So probably, if you don't want to ever get in an accident, just don't drive again. This is just not a realistic thing to say to people.
Blake: So, having sex is like driving. I mean, you could just walk to work.
Lorilyn: Which also though you could get hit by a car.
Blake: Yeah. You could get hit by a car.
Lorilyn: But that would be a consequence of you walking, and you deserved that. You had that come in. You knew that could come in.
Blake: Or you could just stay at home all the time and not go anywhere. [crosstalk]-
David: The accident was because you had sex.
Lorilyn: Could you imagine though, if there was no insurance companies. They're like, "Well, yeah. It just happens. It's a consequence of driving. Sorry."
Blake: What if everyone had to buy sex insurance. Yeah.
Lorilyn: I think you're on to something.
Blake: And then if you got pregnant, it would cover everything.
Lorilyn: Is that called health insurance?
Lorilyn: Is that universal healthcare insurance?
Blake: I think we should just call it sex insurance, and then people would actually buy it. Right? You'd be like, "Oh yeah, I have sex. I need to buy some sex insurance."
Lorilyn: I'm insured.
David: That's a marketing genius. Yeah. That's actually [crosstalk]-
Blake: So, you have to put your card number in on... Not TikTok. On Tinder.
David: It's great about this because people not having sex will buy that to pretend, they're having sex and that [crosstalk]-
Blake: Because you don't want people to know.
David: ... that's what you want when you have an insurance pool. You need a bunch of people that aren't going to ever use it. This is a good model, Blake. I think you [crosstalk]-
Blake: Good business here. Yeah. We're going to repackage health insurance as sex insurance.
Lorilyn: Sex insurance.
Blake: Yeah. It's just specifically only for sex stuff.
[00:42:53] Thank you to our sponsor, Canopy
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[00:44:05] Tax breaks and hypocrisy
David: Rewind the hypocrisy, like you say, right?
Blake: Well, and I want to get to the tax stuff [crosstalk]-
David: Yeah, because this ties to the tax thing, right? If you're going to force women to have children, but you're not going to pay for the birth, that's just the birth, never mind the rest of the child's life and different events that may need medical or social policies and social money. Right. But just even in the taxes, we're very hypocritical about this. Right. From my own case, right, because it was 17 weeks, not 20 weeks, I didn't get to have a dependent that year.
Blake: This is when?
David: Even though I spent the same amount on hospital expenses, I purchased everything to have a baby at the house, I mean, by the time you got to the stores and the cribs and all that stuff.
Lorilyn: Yeah. You have everything. Yeah.
David: But I did not get the claim tax deduction for a dependent. And worse than that, I didn't get to claim a death either.
Blake: So is this because the IRS says that it-
David: Yeah. This is what it says. Yeah. 20 weeks.
Blake: So, you have to make it to 20 weeks.
David: Now, I don't know what the current law is. This is 20 years ago. But it's like, how can you make this law over here? It's going to be 15 weeks or whatever. In some states, it's going to be at conception. If that's the case, you should be able to declare dependent on your taxes then [crosstalk].
Lorilyn: Well, and I found an article on this, David. And actually, every couple years, this comes up, and these are actually Republican legislatures. I know Mitt Romney was one of them. But at the end of January, they'd wrote the Child Tax Credit for Pregnant Moms Act. And that was to address this. And this covered also stillborn or miscarried babies. And so, this is a tax credit, a child tax credit, if you are pregnant and then don't give birth to the following year. So, there has been rumblings in Congress, but it just hasn't gotten anywhere. And to me, as someone who's given birth twice and gone through pregnancy and all the costs you incur during that period, absolutely, this needs to be passed, and we should have this.
David: And then just more tax questions. And maybe this is more specifically, so I'm an employee of a company that's going to pay for me to go out of state to get the medical tourism now. It's going to happen. Right? Because basically, if half the states are going to not allow it and half of them are going to be sanctuary states, or I think California's already declared they're going to be a sanctuary state. Right. So now my employees, and I've seen companies say they're going to reimburse employees to $4,000 to get out-of-state medical. That's going to be the W2. You're going to be taxing that. How's that going to work for these companies and those employees that are in the situation?
Lorilyn: I read another article on that.
David: Okay. Good. So prepared.
Lorilyn: And so, it's the famous accountant’s answer. It depends. But pretty much what they said is there was... Because this is a benefits issue is what it is initially. And so, there's actually several different acts that come into play. But pretty much the consensus was a portion of it that's determined kind of by the law of that state would be tax-free to the employee. And then if it exceeded that, then that additional amount would be taxable. But then again, you have states like Texas being like, well, if you have an employee here and you pay for them to go out of state, we are going to criminally prosecute your company for paying for that for your employee.
David: Yeah. That goes to tell us pass that law where-
Blake: So, Tesla relocated to Texas. If Tesla pays for one of their workers in Texas to go to California to get the abortion, then Texas might prosecute Tesla for paying for that. Criminally?
David: Well, they just passed that law. Anybody could report if they think there's an abortion and get the Uber driver arrested and anybody involved in the whole thing.
Lorilyn: When was that? Was that back in September? I want to say it was-
David: It's recent. It's recent. Yeah. It's within a year. This was past. And then-
Lorilyn: Yeah. I think it was September when those really strict. And it was like a $10,000, I hate to call it this, a reward type thing for reporting [crosstalk]-
David: No, it was modelled I think as an old-
Blake: It's a bounty.
David: It was modelled off an old law to help capture slaves. They took an old law and redid it to reward people for reporting people that were getting an abortion or having knowledge of an abortion. So, if you're the Uber driver and you drove somebody to an abortion clinic, you can now be arrested.
Lorilyn: And we see what kind of big issues of privacy this brings up. And that's what people are saying about this overturning. Okay. There's multiple Supreme Court cases that have been built on Roe v. Wade. Are all those now at stake? And we're talking about overfill. There's a lot of really big cases.
Blake: Right. The legal concept at the core of Roe v. Wade is applied to a bunch of other expansions.
Lorilyn: Because it's issue of privacy basically.
Blake: Personal privacy, right. Yeah. Well, that is beyond the scope, I guess, of what we came here to talk about today.
David: So how do accountants, because this went through my head after the last shootings, and I deep dived, and I just went down all these passive, the cost of mass shootings, taxes and IRS and guns and went down the spiral, and that could be a whole show on its own, right.
[00:49:44] How can accountants actually influence people?
David: And again, though, it's complicated, right, to really get all the research and pull through. It's a whole thing. But it really started me thinking about how accountants, ultimately, we, as an industry, accountants, EAs, maybe bookkeepers too, can influence what clients do. Right. So, when your client comes in and be like, "Well, why were my taxes this much?" "Well, did you know that last year, the US government paid $300 X million in lawsuit settlements due to mass school shootings. That's why your tax bill is this much this year." Accountants could influence the political decisions of their clients.
That's how accountants can influence the world. You really can't when they, when, because people question why they're paying these taxes, and you can give them real numbers. So, you paid $10,000 in taxes. This is how much of that went specifically to this. This is how much went to this. If you break down their taxes that way for them, it'll help them think about that at the polls a little bit versus just [crosstalk].
Lorilyn: Yeah. And I would say that's different. So what David is not saying is that accountants you do... Was it Expensify who sent out that email? Do you remember that?
David: Oh, yeah.
Blake: Oh, yeah. I haven't gotten my David Barrett email yet on this issue.
Blake: When is he going to send a long email explaining his thoughts on abortion?
David: Well, he can't because Thursday he sent a huge, long email about why they're different for Brex or they [crosstalk].
Lorilyn: Yeah. So, I should be clear that David is not saying pull in Expensify.
Blake: Oh, yeah. When I say David, I mean, David Barrett, not David Leary.
David: David. No, but-
Lorilyn: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like David Leary, he's not saying, "Hey, accountants," how you can influence him. He is saying the actual numbers, not yeah, do a David Barrett.
David: I mean, I'm not saying spam all your clients, but I mean, you individually can influence who your clients vote for. So, if account bookkeepers are listening in EAs, you want to change the world. You can't influence-
Blake: Do you think that's true though? Do you really think that we have influence?
David: People go and buy cars and lease cars just so they can get some deduction because their accountant said, "Yes, you'll get some deduction." I honestly think-
Blake: I think somebody on TikTok told them they could get an [crosstalk] with the LOC.
Lorilyn: [crosstalk] TikTok video told them, and they'll do it.
Blake: Yeah. That's-
David: Pre-TikTok people were doing that stuff. But they're motivated, "Oh, I want to get my expenses in by the 31st of the year." They make tax-based decisions all the time in their life. And so, you can influence them to make tax-based decisions when they're voting.
Blake: So, what have we learned today?
Lorilyn: You know what, I think from my perspective, from all this, it's a very complicated issue, obviously. There's so many moving parts for it. There's not a one size fits all. But from my opinion, how you actually lower abortions is by creating a thriving economic situation for people, so they don't feel like they need to go do that. People can't afford this. So okay, let's help them. And especially, again, look at the percentagewise, who's getting the most abortions? Low-income women of colour. We know what that is.
Blake: Oh, yeah. And that was a stat we didn't talk about it. It's close to half. It's-
Lorilyn: It's like 30. I think overall it's 38%, but in some cities it's as high as 50%.
Blake: Okay. So, it's basically way more out of proportion. It's like higher.
Lorilyn: Yes. And it's-
Blake: And why is that happening? The conclusion is it's got to be economic, right?
Blake: I agree with you, Lorilyn. I don't think there's anybody out there that's like, "Yay. More abortions." Right? Right?
Lorilyn: Yeah. It breaks my heart to hear that statistic because I'm like, it doesn't have to be this way. And we could change it if we wanted to as a society. But as a society collectively, we have to decide this is a group of people worth investing in.
Blake: You want to hear my crazy idea?
Blake: My crazy idea is we should actually pay women to have children. Seriously, if you look long term at the direction of this country, the demographics, it's not good, right. People are having fewer kids. This is my crazy ideas. They do this actually in Scandinavia, right? There's places like Sweden, Norway, or whatever. If you have a kid, you get money.
David: We do this indirectly through tax policy, right?
Lorilyn: It's like, "Here's a thousand bucks."
David: Yeah. Well, we do that and then we have-
Blake: Well, we give a child tax credit. Yeah.
David: Tax credit. Some of this is just access, right, and equal footing. If you outlawed, certain demographics are going to still be able to get this done.
Blake: Well, David, the war on drugs worked so well. Right. We grew up. Lorilyn and I, I don't know, did you have dare when you were in school?
Lorilyn: Oh, yeah.
Blake: Because it worked great on me. I never had any drugs ever after that.
Lorilyn: Actually, so here's one statistic we didn't talk about was, okay, it's made illegal. People are still going to get it. What happens to the mothers? So, in countries where it's legal, the incidents of healthy procedures happening is about nine out of 10. So, nine out of 10 abortion procedures go with no medical issues. In countries where it's illegal, one out of four go bad. So, you have 25% of them. You have some type of medical issue happening as a result of it. So, you have a lot more women dying in countries where it's illegal because the people performing it, the places you are, the methods they're trying to use aren't safe. So, you're losing more lives as a result.
[00:55:39] More women will die because of this Supreme Court decision
Blake: So practically speaking, setting aside all the moral stuff, the actual effect of this decision is going to be more women die, and we don't actually meaningfully reduce the number of abortions.
Lorilyn: And more women in prison because there's laws out there saying, "Oh, these women should go to prison for 10 years."
Blake: When the first prosecutions happen, that is going to be really weird TV, right?
Lorilyn: Could you imagine all these moms, because people with children have abortions. Just sending all the moms to prison.
Blake: Right. Oh, and over half, we're just full of numbers today, guys. Over half of women who have one, did we already say?
Lorilyn: I don't think we said this.
Blake: Already have children.
Lorilyn: Wow. I don't think I got one.
Blake: Right. I think there's this myth of like, "Oh, it's women who don't want to have kids." Right. It's actually slightly more than 50% of women already have at least one child when they get an abortion. So yeah. What are you going to do? Send mothers to jail?
Lorilyn: Send all the moms to jail, because the dad's got this. Good luck, guys.
Blake: Yeah. So, I don't see it working out great. The end result, I mean, we'll see. Right. We'll see, but-
David: This is going to become such an election issue, to the point where they-
Blake: Oh, this is really bad for the Republican party if you ask me, David. This is-
David: It is and isn't.
Blake: ... the worst thing that could have happened to them right now. Because they were going to win the, the next election. Absolutely. Look at way things are headed, right?
Lorilyn: The economy is always the economy.
Blake: Biden's economy's going down. Biden's approval ratings are going down. They're set. Oh, and now you've got this issue to excite the Democratic base just politically. It's disaster. I don't know. Maybe that's just my feel. That's beyond my expertise, perhaps.
David: Yeah. It makes it very extreme, right, to where it's going to be you're on board with this on this side, or you're not. It turns the election into this one issue. Right. And just [crosstalk]-
Blake: And I had these grand hopes that the next election would be about funding the IRS.
Lorilyn: Sorry, accountants. [crosstalk]-
Blake: Damnit. We didn't get to talk about it in this episode, David, but we're going to talk about it next time. 21 million returns still unprocessed. So, the IRS, they said they were going to catch up, right? At a certain point, we're-
David: No. I'm getting a deposit in the 29th. When's the 29th? That's for my 2020 return.
Blake: Three days.
David: Yeah. It's already in the pending status of my credit union.
Blake: Good. That's great.
David: They're getting done.
Blake: They cleared out the cafeteria of all the returns in it.
David: They said they were going to be done by the end of the month. So, they literally waited till the last day to shift these out.
[00:58:40] Wrap up and Lorilyn's new podcast
Blake: Well, hey Lorilyn, you have a new podcast, and we need to talk about this new podcast, because it's awesome.
Lorilyn: I do. I do. And Blake's not just blowing smoke. It really is awesome.
Blake: No. It was the first episode. I took a listen. I was like, "This is probably going to be rough." Because if you go back and listen to me and David in our first episodes, it's terrible. Don't ever do that. But yours, it's just amazing. You did an interview with Dan Luthi talking about mistakes, and it's... I don't know. I love listening to people's mistakes because I learned so much more from failures than from people-
Lorilyn: Yeah. So, the podcast is called The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Accounting Podcast. Because sometimes accounting is good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes it's ugly. And so, we definitely have six episodes. And so, Dan was the first one. And each episode, I tried to have a very catchy hook on it. The titles are all super click baity. But also interesting. So, it's all people from Avalara's meta influencer list. And so, it's very much directed toward, what are these problems? What are the solutions for it? And so that's kind of like the format of like, okay, here's this issue? So, can I say the name of the next one coming out?
Blake: Yeah, sure.
Lorilyn: So, the next one is called 2.6 out of 5 stars, and it has to do with accountant satisfaction in our industry.
Blake: That's great.
Lorilyn: And so that's the whole premise of it and how to make the job more enjoyable for you, for your employees. That was a really great informative episode. So definitely take a listen to that one.
Blake: So be sure to subscribe to this. Search for The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Accounting Podcast, and we'll have the link to that in the show notes. And it's available for CPE on Earmark. So, you can listen to this. You hear this great interview. You learn something from firm owners, thought leaders who are doing this stuff, and then you get free CPE for listening. So, download Earmark, earmarkcpe.com.
Lorilyn: Yeah. You just reminded me I have like a couple days to finish up my CPE before my two-year period ends, so I better do some of that this week.
David: You can listen to a podcast with 2X speed-
Blake: Be listening to podcasts.
David: ... and take the quiz on Earmark.
Blake: You can. That is not against the rules according to NASBA because time and space is relative.
Lorilyn: They're going to see 80 hours submitted for one day. I'm like, "What about it?"
Blake: Yeah. Actually, maybe we should advise people like, "Please do not submit more than 24 hours of CPE in a single day as the National Association of State Boards of Accountancy might become suspicious." Even if you explain to them that you listen to 2X speed, you first have to explain what a podcast is, and then you have to explain what 2X speed means.
Lorilyn: And I'd have one playing on every device. I have four episodes going at once.
Blake: Oh, yeah. I hadn't even considered that. Can you do that? I don't know if there's anything in the handbook against that. Let's just stretch this to the limits. That's what we do as accountants. Right. We push the envelope. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Well, anything else we should add, David. before we go?
David: I don't know. I suspect we'll be talking about this again.
Blake: Well, especially if we pissed people off today. Definitely-
Lorilyn: I was thinking about some letters you'll probably get, and I'm sorry, in advance if I'm the cause of any of them. I tried to be respectful to both sides of it.
Blake: Yeah. Well, and like I said, and like you said, I think I understand the moral argument because I live that. I totally internalized that. I believed it. And I actually don't think that is necessarily wrong. I don't have like strong opinions, one way or the other on that. I'm really more about, how do we actually make the world a better place from a practical standpoint? And I think we actually came to a really good conclusion using actual data today. And for that, I'm grateful. I learned stuff. Thank you, both. David, what's your Twitter handle?
Blake: How about you, Lorilyn?
Blake: And I am @BlakeTOliver. Thank you, both. I had a lot of fun today. I learned a lot. I hope our listeners did too. And you can get CPE for listening to this episode. Go to earmarkcpe.com. About a week after this episode drops, you'll see a course on the app. You can take the quiz, get your free CPE certificates. And by the way, if you have opinions, and you very well might have strong opinions today based on what we talked about, we want to hear them. You can email me, email@example.com. And if you want, you can send a voicemail, record a voice memo on your phone, send that to me, and we will listen, and we will likely play it on the air. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you, both Lorilyn Wilson, David Leary.
Lorilyn: Thank you.
David: Thank you.
David: Time for the classifieds.
[01:03:40] Future Firm
David: If you're looking to quickly grow a scalable, systematic seven-figure accounting firm without having to work 50-plus hours per week, check out Ryan Lizama's says online coaching membership, Future Firms Accelerate. Sign around Ryan's experience taking his cloud from scratch to sale so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You'll get online learning and topics that help you automate and systemize all aspects of your firm. You'll get coaching when you need help with implementation. And you'll also join a collaborative community of hundreds of other forward-thinking firm owners. For more details, head over to www.futurefirmaccelerate.com.
[01:04:16] Get W9
David: Tired of clients not remembering to get W-9s? Get W-9 automates and streamlines the collection and storage of W-9s. Get W-9 has a QBO integration, and they have a partner program that pays 25% commissions. Get W-9 plans started only $19 a year. Visit getw9.tax today to get started. That is getw9.tax.
Are you looking for a dream job? We have the job for you. Advisors for Change delivers cloud accounting systems to small and medium non-profit organizations. Join our team of friendly and collaborative non-profit accounting professionals while working from home. Our systems associate will join our experienced systems manager to implement and support cloud accounting systems such as QBO, Bill.com, DV Sasson, and others. To learn more, head to our website at advisorsforchange.com/join-our-team. That's advisorsforchange.com/join-our-team. You'll find a link to the full position description on Indeed.
[01:05:16] Royalwise Solutions
David: Are your bookkeeping clients driving you crazy asking the same questions over and over? They need QuickBooks training, and you have more important things to do with your time. Let Royalwise be your training partner. Create your own customized client training program and outsource your QuickBooks training department. Listeners of this podcast are invited to join our partner program and receive a 10% referral commission when you sign up. Join us at royalwives.com/partner to learn more and get started today. Again, that's royalwise.com/partner.
[01:05:46] Resolve Works
David: Are you a tech-savvy accountant that knows how to lead a team and loves interacting with clients? Are you looking to grow from a controller or CFO into a leadership role? Resolve Works is hiring a director of client accounting to lead our services team and be a key member of our firm leadership. We are a collaborative team serving entrepreneurs, building fast-growing start-ups. We are fully remote, offer flexible schedules, and have a suite of attractive benefits. To learn more and submit your interests, visit resolve-works.com/careers, that is resolve-works.com/careers.
[01:06:19] Oh My Fraud: A True Crime Podcast for Accountants
Blake: Hey, podcast listeners, it's Blake, and I wanted to let you know about a new show I'm working on with CPA/comedian, Greg Kyte, and blogger/former CPA, Caleb Newquist. It's called, Oh My Fraud, and it's a podcast all about financial crimes. That's right, a true-crime podcast for accountants by accountants. Caleb and Greg are going to come together every couple of weeks to unpack their favourite frauds and explore the circumstances, psychology, and interpersonal dynamics involved. They also fully indulge in victim-blaming the defrauded widows, orphans, infirm, and feebleminded because who can resist?
If you fancy yourself a trusted advisor or prefer your true crime with spreadsheets instead of corpses, listen to this show to learn what to watch out for and to keep your clients, your firm, and even yourself safe. To subscribe, go to ohmyfraud.com or search Oh My Fraud on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:07:18] How to advertise in these classifieds
David: Want to get the word out about your newsletter, webinar, party, Facebook group, podcast, e-book, job posting, or that fancy Excel macro you just created, why not let the listeners of The Cloud Accounting Podcast know by running a classified ad? Hit the show notes for the link to get more info.