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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
I'm Liz Wiltsie.
The more I learn about leadership,
the more I'm convinced there's
not a one size fits all solution.
So I am on my own learning journey
and I invite you to join me.
EbonyJanice reminds me that being
open about my journey is important.
Each episode features someone I admire
with actionable insight to share.
So please join me as I
ask what's leadership?
I'm so excited to welcome this week's
guest Bunny McKensie Mack uses pronouns
they/them/theirs is an anti oppression
consultant, coach facilitator, and the
founder of the trademarked Boundary Work™
and Radical Copy for over five years.
Bunny has consulted with some of
the largest for profit and nonprofit
organizations in the country to
develop cultures of accountability
that dismantle racism and gender
inequity at the individual,
interpersonal, and institutional level.
Their work has been featured in Now
This News, Teen Vogue, Refinery29,
The Guardian, Artsy, Afropunk,
The New York Times, Pop Sugar, It
Gets Better, Art News, Wear Your
Voice, Bubblegum Club and El País.
And I am so, so excited
to welcome Bunny here.
Thank you so much for being with us.
Thank you so much for having me, Liz.
So, Bunny.
Let's get right to it.
What do you think is the number one
challenge that leaders face at work?
I think one of the number one challenges
that leaders face at work, is believing
that they have the permission not only
to set boundaries with those, with whom
they work, but also to hold the boundaries
of other people like to honor them.
And I think one of the reasons that
that happens is because we live in
a, a system that really socializes
us to believe that going to work
means leaving ourselves at home.
And so the idea of actually being really
honest about our emotional capacity,
our mental capacity, our physical
capacity, is one of those things that
we believe that we have to leave at
home in order to lead successfully.
Yeah.
When you say boundaries, what is
your definition of boundaries?
So a boundary is a where
you begin and where I end.
It's a tool that, that I use that we
use to protect our physical, mental,
emotional, and spiritual capacity.
And it really is a means of identifying
our needs and articulating those in a
way where we're really letting people
know that we have limits and that those
limits and articulating those limits and
those needs are what enable us to really
embrace the fullness of who we are.
So in that, in that sort of vein, what's
your number one tip for dealing with
the challenge of, you know, boundaries?
One of my number one tips is boundary
mapping is where you actually sit
down, take a blank sheet of paper
and draw potentially into four
sort of quadrants, like four boxes.
And then in each of those boxes,
you have a very specific category of
people that you are looking to set
boundaries with, or even just people
you encounter on a regular basis.
So that could be right.
They could be colleagues in one category.
That could be clients, another category.
That could be family.
Right.
Cause we're talking about boundary
work is about sort of embracing
a fullness of who we are and not
segmenting or compartmentalizing.
Right.
So, cause that just isn't sustainable
and just ends up really pushing us
closer to burn out more quickly.
And then potentially another sort
of category could be friends or
it could even be like, right, like
other things she likes to do, like
travel or like hobbies that you have.
And I find that sort of the, the
boundary mapping methods to be super
helpful because once you are putting
those folks in different categories
and you're actually writing out right
when I work this way, or when this
person approaches me to do work in this
way, it makes me feel, for example,
fulfilled, they make me feel successful.
It makes me feel like my needs are
being honored and sort of reverse
engineering from that feeling
into what the actual boundary is.
And I find that to be incredibly helpful
because I think that for a lot of folks,
especially a lot of my clients, if you
sit them down and you say, okay, what
are your boundaries with your colleagues?
A lot of times they're like, oh,
you know, I don't know because when
we're in it and we're in the midst
of it, I think it's hard to sort of
distinguish between the things that
we need things that they need, right.
And the things sort of like
our organization and all the
folks that make up that space
in that community want and need.
so really sitting down and
being able to work that out.
I found to be incredibly
helpful for my clients and
also incredibly helpful for me.
Yeah.
Have you had this experience as well?
Where I keep thinking about,
you know, I started working
when I was probably 14 and...
Oh me too, me too.
I never sat down and
thought about this stuff.
I didn't know that we weren't, that
capacity was, is limited, right.
That you're like meant, like it,
it's okay to have limited capacity
and it's normal and it's human.
And that feels like a piece in,
in sitting down and saying, Hey,
this is what my boundaries are.
Even the notion that you're
allowed to have boundaries at all.
Yeah, for sure.
And I, and I think, you know,
two things, one is that.
I also started working when I was 14.
Taurus rising here.
I'm like, where's the money.
But for me, I really am a firm believer
that whenever a person started working
from whatever age, that from the beginning
of that career, professionally from the
beginning of like, sort of building up
interpersonal relationships and engaging
in relational dynamics that we have, we
all sort of known from the beginning,
what boundaries are, but potentially we're
not you know, exposed to that vocabulary.
I didn't, I think that that was a
right that we had, but I know I can
call, I can recall things from when
I first started working or recall
things from earliest, my earliest
relationships and friendships, where
something just didn't feel right to me.
And maybe I would sit with that thing and
be thinking about it and be asking myself,
you know, what, what is it about this?
Or I need someone.
Meet a new supervisor, a new
manager, and I'm asking myself,
there's something about that.
There's something about the
interaction that felt off to me.
And then particularly, especially
when I was younger, I'd be like,
okay, well, you know, it just happens.
Let me just move on live life, you know,
and more than likely it would happen
again, but I was never naming it as maybe
potentially this doesn't feel right to me
because this person was crossing a line,
but I'm not exactly sure what the line is.
So that's the first thing is sort of
like, I think empowering ourselves
to know that there's always, that
we've always had boundaries, but
maybe sometimes due to sort of our
circumstance and the fact that we maybe,
you know, most of our socialized methods
see them as things we're worthy of.
That we didn't know at the time
that we were recognizing, or really
even, reflecting on the fact that a
boundary of ours had been crossed.
Yeah.
And I know you do, as, as I said earlier,
you do anti-oppression consulting.
As we get into different power dynamics,
and privilege dynamics, how does your
coaching around boundary work shift?.
I don't, I don't know that shift is
the right word, but how does it move
in relationship to, you know, that
different folks have different needs?
Yeah.
My work has focused really on being
as transformational as possible.
But we're talking about a holistic
transformation and when I, sort of,
first started delving into more or my own
research around boundaries and boundary
work, I encountered a lot of work.
They focused a lot on the individual.
And sometimes I think in a way that
felt like it was written through a lens
of sort of shaming, the person who had
not set the boundary, as opposed to
focusing on the fact that there's another
person on the other end or another
community or another organization that
was actually crossing those boundaries.
And potentially not even checking
in with the person to ask, hey, do
I have your consent, your emotional
consent to at work after you worked a
12 hour day,for me to ask you personal
questions about your personal life?
Or, Hey, do I have your consent, even
though I know that, you already just
worked on these two major projects
and you completed them successfully
to add three more on your plate,
even though I know that you're
about to go on vacation tomorrow?
You're right.
So it's like, sort of, for me, and
thinking through that work and asking
myself what's missing for me was missing.
What was missing was the systemic part,
where I think a lot of times we want
to focus so much on the individual,
especially within business coaching
stations, where we want a resource to
talk to people like they're saviors,
and we're like, you are the special one.
You're the one who's going
to save this organization.
You're the one who's going to
build this business on your own.
Right.
That's going to have the tremendous
impact within your community.
And I think it's great to empower people.
It's great to encourage people.
And also we are all members of community.
Various communities, the intersect based
on our identities, based on the way we
were raised based on our circumstances
and our interests in our hobbies.
And so for me, there's not really
a way to talk about boundaries in
a way that really is sustainable in
a way that really addresses, all of
the needs of a person, if we don't
address the fact that a lot of times.
We're not setting boundaries with people
because of these systems, in which,
in which we exist, like we exist and
we have to sort of navigate within.
They have given us the, put a lot
of pressure on it to be perfect.
Put a lot of pressure on us to value
material goods, material wealth, over
the humanity, over our own humanity
and many of your other people.
And that really also put a lot of
pressure on us, to show up and have all
the answers, even when we potentially
have not done the research or if not,
have not had the lived experience.
And I feel like, especially when I think
about major organizations making or
crossing major boundaries like culturally
or stereotypically, racially, in terms
of gender, I think that's one of the
reasons is because there's, there's sort
of like, this leaning into having all
the answers and to sort of like, if you
don't have the answers you just guess.
Which I think, especially when it comes
to the communications and marketing
space, where there are a lot of folks
who will very easily, an organization
with a lot of money will make a huge
mistake, right, a huge error in their
marketing or communications that's
racist, or that is patriarchal or that's
transphobic, because I think they're
putting it on themselves to just have
all the answers where they're actually
using their funding and their resources,
to hire folks who have those answers,
who have those experiences, right.
Who can speak to the ways in which those
communities want to be represented.
So those main things, no, it's not.
It is about us very much so.
And also there are a lot of times where we
haven't set boundaries because we've been
socialized, not to, or maybe we've been
threatened by a supervisor, by a manager,
or by institution in a way that makes us,
you know, it sort of wounded us and made
us feel like we don't have the right.
Yeah.
So what is something that's impacted
you in the way that you think,
Oh my God.
Great question, Liz.
I mean, there's a lot of
things in trying to think.
Yup.
You get to, you get to pick just one.
Let me think.
Oh my God.
I think knowing what it's like as
a, a black queer trans nonbinary
person, knowing what that's
like to have, folks consistently
trying to cross your boundaries.
and I think at one time when I was, sort
of, growing up and experiencing that
I did sort of try to, I did turn that
inward, which I think a lot of us do.
And I, you know, for a long time
perceived myself as the issue.
Oh, people are trying to cross my
boundaries, people are not attempting to
honor my space, you know, my physical,
mental, emotional space, spiritual space.
And it must have something to do with me.
And then when I, you know, grew older
and had all these experiences, with,
when I not just with myself, when I was
witnessing, I think other folks boundaries
be crossed or people do things, right.
I thought, wow, you didn't even
ask consent to do the thing, or
you didn't ask consent to get this
person, to send this person that
thing or can ask them, send it before.
You're just sort of like, expecting
marginalized folks, for example, to
give you all this information about the
community and the history without any
sort of like right payments or without
any sort of value being exchanged.
And that's, for me, when we made
me realize, oh wait, actually,
this is a specific systemic issue.
And so even with my own and my own work,
a lot of what I'm teaching about has to
do with the lessons, the mini lessons that
I've learned, especially within 10 years,
the nonprofit administration, right?
And over five years now and consulting and
facilitation work where I realized, wow,
okay, I can actually apply this in a way
that, helps to make people's lives better
and helps them to navigate and to identify
what it is that they need in order to
embrace the fullness of who they are.
That's a fantastic answer.
What should I, what should I
have asked you that I didn't?
What did you ask me that did it?
That is a good question, I guess
maybe is this something that I'm
going to, I'm going to answer
after this or is this like a.
I mean, you can, if you want to go for
it, if you want to just sort of say,
this is what you should have asked
and I'm leaving it, then feel free.
Okay.
I think I would maybe the question
that I think you could have asked
them what they should have, because I
think you've done a great job already
with the questions that you got.
I think one of the questions you
could have asked was, what are
some of the core steps or core
characteristics of boundary work?
Yeah.
Do you want to answer it?
Do you not want to answer it?
And I'm going to leave
that as a cliffhanger.
Fantastic.
Last question is what is something that
you are grappling with either in your
work or a personal something that is
just sort of out there for you, that you
don't know where you stand on it yet?
I think there's one thing I
know where I stand on that.
And also I think it's about constantly
sort of navigating and developing
a deeper awareness of it is, when
we think about boundary work,
specifically, it's not just about, right.
It's not just about an individual
sort of setting boundaries with
others or setting boundaries, right.
With communities with organization.
But it's also about the work that we do
to honor the boundaries of other people.
And so I've been thinking a lot
lately about emotional consent, and
how, like, we have an expectation for
people to do emotional labor for us,
especially if we are compromised, if
we are like compromised emotionally,
we're going through a difficult time.
And so that's something that
I'm consistently at least
sort of thinking through.
What does it mean to honor
the boundaries of others?
And also, what does it mean to be, to sort
of build awareness, or to build a sort of
level of perception or even right, because
we know that neurodivergence exists.
So maybe not all ways, can a
person look at a person and have an
awareness of how they're feeling.
But even in those situations, what
does it mean to sort of ask questions
so that we have a better understanding
of where a person is, as opposed
to sort of assuming that we know,
because they're smiling a lot in
the office are smiling a lot, right.
In public community spaces.
Yes.
So I want to remind folks, there
will be, there are show notes here.
You will have all the
links to Bunny's work.
And you do, you coach on Boundary Work
in particular and also Radical Copy.
And all of that will be available.
Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Full show notes from this
episode, and every episode are
available at 4needs.work/podcast.
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