Harder to Breathe, with Ryan Dusik

SUMMARY
Ryan Dusick, the former drummer of Maroon 5, shares his journey of recovery and finding a new purpose after leaving the band. He emphasizes the importance of self-care and the need to prioritize mental health in the music industry. Ryan discusses the challenges of vulnerability, the impact of societal conditioning on men's emotional expression, and the importance of balance in emotions. He also explores creating meaning in life and the consequences of avoiding feelings. Ryan's story serves as an inspiration for those struggling with mental health and highlights the need for support and resources in the industry. In this conversation, Ryan Dusick discusses the extreme rhythm of touring life and the challenges of adjusting to normal life after touring. He shares his experiences with panic attacks and trauma, highlighting the importance of self-care and recognizing the impact of childhood trauma. Ryan also offers advice for new artists in the industry and encourages those suffering in silence to seek connection and stay open to change.

TAKEAWAYS

-Prioritizing self-care and mental health is essential for artists and individuals in any industry.

-Vulnerability and authenticity are powerful tools for personal growth and connection.

-Men should be encouraged to embrace vulnerability and express their emotions.

-Childhood trauma can have a lasting impact on mental health and coping mechanisms.

-Self-care, including prioritizing rest, exercise, and nourishing the mind and soul, is crucial for overall well-being.

-Staying open to criticism and being teachable can lead to personal and professional growth.

-Connection and seeking support from others is essential for those struggling with mental health issues.
-Creating meaning and purpose is crucial for overall well-being and mental health. Touring life can be characterized by extreme highs and lows, leading to challenges in adjusting to normal life.
RYAN DUSIK
https://www.ryandusick.com/
https://www.instagram.com/ryan_michael_dusick/
@ryan_michael_dusik
KIM RAPACH
https://www.kimrapach.com/
@kimrapach
@theworkofwarriors
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5npRj6RJ97zx66lIWePMYQ

Creators & Guests

Host

Kim Rapach

Creator & Host - The Work of Warriors

Editor

Mac Rapach

Editor, Designer, Composer - The Work of Warriors

Producer

Mike Rapach

Producer - The Work of Warriors

RD

Guest

Ryan Dusik

Founding Drummer of Maroon 5, Therapist, & Author of: "Harder to Breathe: A Memoir of Making Maroon 5, Losing It All, & Finding Recovery"

What is The Work of Warriors?

A warrior is defined as one who is in conflict and sacrifices themselves for the
good of others. Sadly, in the entertainment industry, and the world of
entrepreneurship, this perspective is dangerous. To stay alive, amidst our
struggles, we must first fight for ourselves and then fight for the masses. My
name is Kim Rapach and I am an integrative coach on a mission to end celebrity
suicide. My life’s work is to help entrepreneurs and entertainers escape the
darkness that often accompanies high levels of success. What an honor it is to
have crucial conversations around entertainment, entrepreneurship, and mental
health. “The Work of Warriors” is a series of brave conversations with talented
entertainers, and entrepreneurs who are not only using their gifts to make the
world a better place, they are modeling mental wellness in ways that inspire
others. For our purpose of bringing healing to the world, a warrior’s task is to take
great care of themselves, so they may take great care of others. The work of a
warrior, for us, is someone who has radical self-acceptance and uses their gifts to
make a profound impact on the world. If we are going to have a positive impact
on the entertainment industry, we need to do THREE things: 1. Normalize candid
conversations around mental health 2. Redefine success so that it aligns with
mental wellness 3. Engage with each other from a place of self-love, and healthy
boundaries When we fight for ourselves, we heal the world. Therefore, the world
needs more people who are willing to fight for themselves. As warriors on the
front lines, it is our greatest hope that these conversations will inspire high
achievers to care well for themselves and ask for help when they need it.
Together, we are all warriors, redefining mental health as mental wellness, and
healing the world, one warrior at a time. SPECIAL NOTE To all entertainers,
without all of you, we have nothing. Sincerely, thank you for your work, for using
your gifts to heal the world. If you are struggling, please reach out to your local
community resources, or call the National Suicide Hotline, 988.

Kim Rapach (09:28.866)
Today's guest is Ryan Dusick, an associate marriage and family therapist and the founding drummer of the very popular band Maroon 5.

Kim Rapach (09:47.058)
After multiple hit songs, two Grammy Awards, and over a million albums sold, Ryan found himself suffering and without direction as his career as a performer came to an end, just as it was taking off.

Kim Rapach (10:06.966)
struggling with both physical and mental health challenges. Ryan on Wibble Maw.

Struggling with both physical and mental health challenges, Ryan finally overcame his struggles in 2016 when he began his journey of recovery. He has culminated a new life path full of meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. His story is very inspiring. Now a mental health professional and author, Ryan is spreading the message that recovery is possible and some astounding things can come with it.

He recently released his book, Harder to Breathe, a memoir of making Maroon 5, losing it all and finding recovery. In one of the many praises for Harder to Breathe from the band, James Valentine says,

Harder to Breathe is not only a detailed chronicle of the early days of the band, but an inspiring story of redemption. Ryan's personal journey is inspiring and will remind those in need of help that change is possible. I'm so excited to introduce to you, Ryan Dusick.

Kim Rapach (18:10.166)
Thank you.

Thank you for being here. Hi.

Ryan (19:14.682)
Right.

Ryan (19:20.126)
My pleasure. Thank you for having me on your show.

Kim Rapach (19:22.834)
Absolutely, you have an amazing story. I don't know what you know about the work of warriors. The podcast is brand new. But essentially, it's to encourage both artists and really everyone to take care of themselves first, before their career before their families. You know, we live in a culture that is so

We're so conditioned to think that, you know, we have to give and give and give to everyone, to our careers, to our dreams, even before taking care of ourselves. And then once we make it, then we'll take care of ourselves. And as you know, and you have accounted in your beautiful memoir, it doesn't work well in that direction.

Ryan (20:08.19)
Very true. And I appreciate that you're advocating in this space because, you know, I certainly didn't have any perspective on that when I was going into that world, you know, and there was no public discourse about these kind of things. So to be able to have that now is definitely going to be helping a lot of people for sure.

Kim Rapach (20:32.094)
Well, thank you. Thank you for being here again. I love the book. You did a great job. It was such an entertaining account of, you know, the history of the band and your experience, but then also there was just such a beautiful, the way that you told the story of, I mean, the real account of how you transitioned, but just the way that you did it was really well done. So the attention you had my attention from the start.

to the finish and I just, I really appreciate it. I'm gonna say that again because my camera just glitched on me. It'll probably do that like every 20 minutes, I'm not sure. But anyway, I enjoyed your book. You had my attention from start to finish just because of the way that you told it and you're funny, but also just your authenticity and just the genuineness of the true ups and downs of the industry of success, relationships, adolescence, adulthood.

college, everything. So what inspired you to write the book?

Ryan (21:37.138)
Well, I had always liked the idea of writing a book. I was, I loved creative writing when I was a kid. It was a passion of mine early on, along with baseball and then eventually music. And so much so that when I tried to figure out what my major in college was gonna be, I chose English because I figured that other than music, my only other thing I could really invest myself in at that level is writing. And so...

I got my bachelor's degree in English. And for the longest time, like everyone else that's supposed to studies, you know, literature, things, I'm going to write my, I'm going to write the next great American novel someday, right? So that was always in the back of my mind, but it was one of those things that kind of fell by the wayside when my life was music and it was the band for a long time. But then after I left the band and I was in a really dark place in my life and really struggling to figure out what the meaning of it all was.

I did have the idea of telling my story in some capacity and I knew that I had some stories to tell because the band had gone from this thing we started in my parents' garage and went all the way from there up to over the course of a decade playing the biggest stages in the world. So I knew I had a story to tell. There was a lot along the way that was interesting. And I knew that some of the things that I went through were both interesting, but also

tragic and heartbreaking. And so I thought about writing a book, but the only problem at that point was that I didn't know what the purpose of it would be, other than to just tell some stories, right? Say I wrote a book and maybe, you know, break some people's hearts along the way. So I decided not to do it at that point. I was actually even approached by someone who wanted to do a book, like co-write a book or do that kind of thing. And I also said to myself, you know, if I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna do it myself.

But then fast forward maybe another five, 10 years when I was in a better place in my life. I was back in school and I was sober and I was studying psychology and I had all this new passion and purpose in my life. And it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. This tragic story that I've been telling myself about my life and what I had and what I lost now had a happy ending and it had this new place of fulfillment and purpose and meaning.

Ryan (23:59.418)
And so that's when it really clicked that I had a story to tell that could actually impact people in a positive way. And that's when I started. It wasn't even a choice really. It wasn't like I need to read this book. I just woke up and it started coming out of me and I had to sit down and start typing and get it out.

Kim Rapach (24:16.646)
Yeah, I love that that's exactly what the work of warriors is all about, is for those of us who have suffered and who have experienced darkness, whether it be addiction or anxiety, depression, you know, suicidal ideation to then have the end, you know, not the end, but the next phase of the story be one of celebration where we are thriving to be able to share that hope with other people. So again, I'm grateful that you're here to tell us about it. I'm curious, I know that you have a lot of

praises from the band, but I'm wondering was that risky at first? What was that process like?

Ryan (24:55.218)
You mean showing them the book and seeing what they were going to think?

Kim Rapach (24:58.91)
Yeah, just, you know, I think for most writers, when you're, when you write a memoir, it can be intimidating and uncertain, whether it's family members or friends, when you're recounting stories that involve a lot of other people, especially in the public eye.

Ryan (25:13.266)
Yeah, there was a lot of consideration that went into that for me, and it was a process. I was very careful when I wrote it, you know, in terms of who I showed it to early on and how much of it was allowing myself to have the ability to express myself without self-censorship and then take the time to go back and figure out where is the line here in terms of...

what is the real purpose of this and what is serving that purpose and what is not. Because at the end of the day, my intent from day one was never to write something that made someone look bad or to attack or mudslinging or anything like that. And it was also not, there's a fine line between telling rock and roll stories and that kind of thing and having it turn into a sort of salacious tell all. That was never my intent. I knew that there was a mission for this book that was...

solely focused on offering some people hope in if they could see, in my struggles, if they could relate to my struggle, see some hope in recovery or finding new purpose in life. But that being said, I think that relationships are really important to all of that. Obviously a big part of our lives is relationships and it's a big part of our mental health and our wellness.

the people in our lives are very relevant to the topics that I'm writing about. So I wanted to represent my relationships in a very honest way. I just wanted to make sure that I was respectful. And then the other thing that was also a consideration was like, of course people are gonna wanna hear some celebrity stories and some of the things that you got to do behind the scenes, that kind of thing. So I thought that was relevant, both just for entertainment purposes and because it gave context.

to the life that I was living in those years. But again, without the intent of doing something salacious or trying to make someone look bad. So there was a constant negotiation in my mind of making sure that I was walking that line, but also not to censor myself prematurely, because I did wanna make sure I was being honest and getting it all out on the page before I scaled back and made any choices in terms of what to cut.

Kim Rapach (27:38.23)
Sure. Yeah, it was, I mean, it's powerful. There were several points where, you know, oftentimes I'm listening, I have both the hard copy and the audible, but I was listening at one point, and it was early on in the book, I don't know, maybe chapter three or something, but when you were talking about when Kurt Cobain died, and you spoke about the connection and the reflection that you had on your lyrics in the band, and what you guys were writing, and how...

I mean, I'm not going to do it any justice, but where you talked about this isn't just a vibe, this is real. And I just wondered if you could say a little bit more about that reflection that you had after he passed with the music you were creating.

Ryan (28:23.23)
It was a wake up call. For me, I loved that music of the early 90s, the whole alternative rock scene of Seattle and the grunge music for a lot of reasons, but mainly, I was entering in a phase of my life in which I felt alienated and disconnected and disillusioned, which I think are common, typical things for teenagers to go through.

It was just a particular mood at that time in history that it was very much sort of a cool thing to be brooding and dark and mysterious. And my heroes were that. I mean, Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell and these guys that seemed to really exist at the intersection of something very vulnerable and wounded and something very powerful and uplifting.

probably Chris Cornell Soundgarden is probably my favorite hard rock band of all time. And Chris Cornell, I mean, who embodied more that intersection of powerful and vulnerable better than him because his lyrics were so heavy and so personal, but then to this soaring voice and incredible power and the music had such power to it. So, you know, there was the element of really feeling seen and heard.

and understood by these artists. They were representing me better than anyone I could see at my school and my other role models around me. They were the people that I felt like, okay, these people get it. But then there was also that element of this is, a moment of pop culture that is, it's cool to be depressive really. And then so.

We kind of walked that line early in our career, like being inspired by those artists and even writing lyrics that were heavy and dark and introspective and sometimes nonsensical too, let's be honest, it was the early nineties and a lot of the lyrics were a little bit like, what are we talking about? So, but then, you know, when that happened, when Kurt Cobain, you know, takes his life and you realize like this isn't just

Ryan (30:48.81)
This isn't just a trend. This isn't just pop culture. This is a mental health crisis. These are people that are actually really struggling and the music and the lyric that they're writing is their way of coping. It's the expression of something really personal and really dark. And perhaps, writing those songs and playing that music was what kept them alive just as long as they were. And I had the same experience when Chris Cornell passed.

I think it was 2017. I was just a year sober at that point. I was just about to celebrate my first sober birthday. And then, my biggest hero of that era of my adolescence dies and of the things that I had been struggling with. It was depression and anxiety and substance use. And to see again, just a big reminder of that line that we walk between

you know, being vulnerable and understanding the sides of us that are wounded and dealing with them, but also not succumbing to them and not allowing ourselves to get to that point where we've become, you know, an expression of that darkness. So I try, you know, because to this day, that music speaks to me more than any other music. The music of, I think that's true for anyone. Whatever was your...

the music you connected to in your adolescence. I think that sticks with you forever because it feels like your moment of coming of age. So to this day, if nothing else is connecting with me, I'll turn on Soundgarden or the Red Hot Chili Peppers or Smashing Pumpkins or stuff from that era. But then I have to remind myself, it's like, I also need the light in my life. I need things that lift me up and don't just.

just connect to that dark side of me, but that also allow me to see the other side of that coin. Because I think there's darkness inside of all of us, and if we deny it, we're probably denying a big part of our existence. But at the same time, there's also light in all of us. And if we spend too much time in the dark, we're going to probably miss out on the things that make it all worthwhile and give us that connection to something more uplifting.

Kim Rapach (33:14.114)
Thank you for saying that. It's so, I think that's probably one of the biggest driving forces of the work of warriors is that darkness that we all have within us, that so many unfortunately think or believe or just don't know the resources and we're not talking enough about it, that that's just them or that it will feel that way forever or that's the only way to feel. And so I just love that you said that

So many of us have wrestled with that darkness. And it's someone else coming alongside us. It's resources, it's people talking, normalizing not only the complexity of the music industry, but normalizing the complexity of being human, don't you think?

Ryan (34:04.306)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. The space that I've been in at this point in my life and mental health and now getting out and being an advocate. You know, I try to occupy a space of vulnerability as much as anything else. I think we need role models, in particular men. You know, I think historically, men feeling like they can, like it's okay to be vulnerable has been difficult. And I think that that's starting to finally change.

And so much of the time you see, you know, this almost sort of toxic positivity offered as the solution to the things that hold us back sometimes. And while I think we need that kind of encouragement and we need the motivation and inspiration to be uplifted at the same time, you know, I think that we need to feel understood and seen and all of us carry with us these.

this other side of us that isn't always up to this hyper positive expression of what life is. And I think as a clinician and as a person and as a person who is in this space of advocacy, what comes up for me over and over again is the idea of balance. I think that any extreme solution...

is probably one-sided. I think that there's a balance in us. There's the yin and the yang, you know, and I think that comes up in most things that I talk about as a therapist. You know, we're never, very rarely, just one thing, you know, and our solutions for things, we don't need to see them as binary, you know. There's a balance to the way that we approach our wellness.

Kim Rapach (36:01.694)
Yeah, I agree. And I think language is powerful. Conditioning is powerful. You know, and I always think about how it's commonly, you know, conditioning for men, that vulnerability is weakness, right?

And so I have so much compassion for men because when I see men, whether it's my clients or even the guys I live with, the guys in my family, you know, when they come forward with vulnerability, I just have respect and compassion for the fact that at varying degrees men have learned that it's just not safe. And some people have physically experienced that it's not safe.

to be vulnerable, whether that's on the playground or from their father or a big brother or a friend or whatever, you know, in sports, name it. It's all over the place. And so I'm just wondering if you, I wasn't planning on going here, but if you would be willing to speak to that a little bit about what can we say to strong, successful men who also are afraid to be vulnerable because they've been taught and told and conditioned that it's weakness.

Ryan (37:14.554)
Yeah, it's tough and I have experienced that in my own life. I think that, you know, I have identified as a rather sensitive guy most of my life and pretty in touch and comfortable with the idea of being vulnerable and, you know, as we used to say, in touch with my feminine side, right? That being said,

I think that I'm recognizing at this point in my life, looking back, how much that was not acceptable in a lot of the places that I, certainly as an athlete, as a kid, as you described, most of the culture in sports is about being tough and about just pushing through and pushing it down and just be a man, get out there and take it like a man. And...

And so that was sort of antithetical to my being as a kid, even though I loved sports and I did have a competitive streak and I enjoyed pushing through and trying hard and trying to compete and win. There was always something about that culture and connecting with men, you know, the coaches that I had and the teammates that I had in high school in particular, playing for the varsity team in my high school in baseball.

There was just a disconnect and I felt like there was a large part of me that didn't feel seen or didn't feel like it was safe. I certainly felt bullied even. I had a couple coaches that were really cruel and teammates that were really cruel. Not in a physical way. Thankfully, I was never bullied and beaten up in that sort of way. But you're absolutely right for a lot of people, whether it's their peers or their parents.

you know, an expression of any kind of sensitivity, vulnerability, femininity in a boy is met with violence. So I can imagine that if it was tough for me, allowing myself to embrace that fully as somebody who was relatively comfortable with my sensitive side, that for people who come from that background, where in their family it is not acceptable, and it was a genuine threat, they would be that much harder.

Ryan (39:37.322)
to overcome and to allow that in. Now that being said, I mean, I work with men all the time as a therapist who are struggling with this very thing, and these are oftentimes very successful men, people who on the surface seem to have it all together, and they're tough guys who are providing for a family and outwardly looking like strong, powerful people. And then inside,

they're really breaking down, you know, and it starts to bubble to the surface in a lot of different ways and sometimes in really tragic ways, you know. And it's, it starts in the therapy room in a safe space, you know, the ability, you don't have to necessarily wake up one day and walk out into the world and be this, you know, this big open wound, you know, and show your vulnerability to the world. If you have one space that you can allow yourself to soften.

and to feel emotion, a place that you know is safe. Whether it's a therapist or a loved one, a partner, a sibling, somebody that you, a best friend, somebody that you connect with, that you can allow yourself to have that vulnerability, just having the ability to express that side of yourself, to embody that side of yourself and process those emotions, those emotions that might not have been safe in a lot of environments in your life.

That goes a long way, I think, in terms of beginning to work through the pain and suffering that you can go through when you're just shoving those emotions down and not dealing with them. And then in time, I think it becomes a way, it becomes a process of finding a way to find that balance, again, the word balance, right? Between being the tough person, the strong person that you want to be, and embodying that side of...

of yourself that it can be a wonderful thing. It can be wonderful to be somebody who has resilience and fortitude and all of those things that allow us to pick ourselves up and keep moving and move forward. But also allowing in the sensitive sides and the vulnerable sides and making space for that and how you strike that balance so that you're not rejecting a whole part of you or just pushing it down.

Ryan (42:00.022)
and then seeing it come to the surface in other ways that were not foreseen and sometimes can be you know rather toxic.

Kim Rapach (42:10.206)
Yeah, and our culture, you know, I think has tricked some of us. And I know I felt for it for a long time that, you know, women had, you know, females had certain emotions and men had other emotions and not as many. You know, as a therapist, what if, you know, what have you learned, you know, from your previous life, but to now, what emotions do men actually have?

Ryan (42:32.798)
Well, this is just one man's humble opinion based upon, you know, a certain amount of education but also personal experience, both as a man and as a therapist, you know, working with people and seeing in my anecdotal experience the things that come up. And in my experience and in my opinion, we all have the same basic emotions. We all experience the same vulnerabilities, the same desires, the same things we're longing for. We all have basically the same needs as well.

Ryan (43:05.656)
However, the biggest difference is that there are certain emotions that are culturally sanctioned for men and for women historically speaking. I think that from the time you're a very young boy, anger and aggression are much more acceptable for a boy in terms of how you express yourself than to be a crybaby, let's say.

Kim Rapach (43:26.222)
Sure.

Ryan (43:30.778)
or to show a longing that's unfulfilled. I think there's a difference in the way that we treat that and what's considered acceptable. And it's not even necessarily overt messages that we always receive about that. Sometimes it's just the culture, it's the covert messages that we receive about what's acceptable, the images of what our role models are, the things that we see that inform the way that we act.

Kim Rapach (43:47.382)
Yep.

Ryan (43:55.47)
And then you look, there are some hormonal differences, I'm sure, that play a part in this too. I mean, certainly testosterone can make someone more aggressive, and that might appear on the surface as anger or other things that we associate more with masculinity. So there are some differences that I think that are natural in that regard. But at the end of the day, what I've learned as a therapist is that underneath anger are more vulnerable feelings.

Ryan (44:25.806)
underneath that usually there's fear or there's, you know, insecurity, some kind of something that's lacking and needing fulfillment, but the expression sounds more aggressive when it comes from that place. But look, I've met plenty of women who can be pretty angry too, you know, so it's not like one gender.

Kim Rapach (44:39.574)
Sure.

Ryan (44:50.118)
has a monopoly on any one emotion. I think we all experience these emotions. And some of it has to do with the family we grew up in. If you grew up in a family in which there's a lot of yelling and screaming and that's the way that you expressed yourself, then you're probably likely to express yourself in that way. If you grew up in a family in which there was not a lot of expressed emotion and it was not something that you did to wear your emotions on your sleeve, you're probably more likely to bottle it up and have it come out in other ways.

So, but we're all susceptible to all these things. We're kind of, it's not a linear thing. It's not like, oh, well, here's your gender. Here's the card that is gonna be played out in your life. There's a lot of nuance to this. There's a lot of different moving parts that inform the ways that we experience emotion and the way that we express it.

Kim Rapach (45:40.482)
Sure. Yeah, I know I love it. One of the other pieces I loved about the book is when you were talking about when you got the bus and it gave me hope when I heard you say that there wasn't as much debauchery or nefarious behaviors going on as you had expected. And you said, I suppose some of that had to do with like corporate.

you know, engagement with bands and stuff and the culture had changed. But do you think that, or is it, in your experience, or do you think that it will be more commonplace, more normal for touring bands to have therapists, mental wellness coaches, you know, physical wellness coaches and such on tour? Is this conversation normalized in that environment? Like, what are your thoughts as far as the mental health piece?

Ryan (46:35.782)
Oh yeah, I think you're, I'm starting to see that happening already. I mean, there are organizations that are geared towards that very thing. Some of them nonprofits, some of them very specifically, I'm a member of something called the Music Industry Therapist Collective. And that's a UK based group that is essentially a group of therapists that used to work in the music industry and transitioned into becoming mental health professionals. And they have a book out about that very...

thing, touring and mental health. And it's kind of an encyclopedia on all things that come up with your wellness and your mental health on the road. It's, I mean, it's something I wish existed 20 years ago when I was touring. But, you know, I've met with several people with several organizations and groups that are doing that very thing. And, you know, doing work of advocacy to try to promote, you know, conversations about this stuff, but also,

literally going and working at festivals and on tours and providing those services. And I think that what you're starting to see, I actually wrote an article about this for Variety Magazine, which introduced me to a lot of these people. But what you're starting to see is that finally, at least the artists are recognizing that their wellness is a big part of their instrument, as much as their voice or their body or their guitar or drums.

being well and being able to care for oneself in mind, body and spirit in the midst of the pressures of performance and touring, that's as much a part of how successful and sustainable your career is gonna be as anything. And so I think that as you see, we've had how many, too many...

uh, stories, tragic stories of people that ended up breaking down in one way or another, whether it's a substance abuse issue or suicide or just, you know, melting down and having, uh, you know, a total nervous breakdown and having to cancel tours or career ending type of stuff. Um, that's not sustainable for a business either. I mean, the people who are the promoters, the people who are the record labels, um, if they want to make the kind of money.

Ryan (48:57.586)
that Taylor Swift is making, for instance, you have to build a model that is sustainable in the way that her tour is. And that's not just about your bottom line. I mean, the bottom line is important for any business. And I'm not here to say that's not important. Obviously, a business is a business. But at the same time, it's like every company around the world at this point has an HR department. Every company has people coming in to do workshops.

Kim Rapach (49:15.31)
Sure.

Ryan (49:27.43)
and to motivate people and figuring out how to maintain morale and wellness in the workplace. Are they always successful? Maybe not, but at least there is the attempt to try to incorporate that into what they're doing. And so I think that the music industry and the entertainment industry in general should be no different. I mean, I think that had I been going out on the road in 2002 on the album songs about

And instead of giving us instructions on media training and how to basically party like a rockstar, if there had been therapy and group therapy and workshops on ways to maintain your sanity in the course of that lifestyle, perhaps I could have avoided some of the things that ended up being problems for me.

Kim Rapach (50:20.718)
Sure. Well, even as I hear you say that, I wonder, you know, I mean, it's a different world now, but also reading your book and listening in the hours, the way your days, even your days off were packed with, you know, photo shoots or, you know, a trip here, you know, another squeeze in another show, whatever, like it's money, right? You're talking about that bottom line.

And I think what we want managers and producers and such to understand is that everybody wins when the artists are well. It's expensive to have people unwell, right? Like it's costly, it's risky of not only finances, but then other people's mental health, you know, other people's mental health and wellbeing.

Ryan (50:53.363)
Right.

Ryan (51:03.038)
Oh yeah.

Ryan (51:07.314)
Yeah, I mean, if you let things go long enough, just thinking about the bottom line, then you end up in a situation where you have a major problem that can seriously impact your bottom line on a bigger scale. You've seen a lot of young artists canceling tours of late and certainly since the pandemic. I mean, that was a wake-up call, I think, for a lot of people. So I mean, those kind of outcomes

Kim Rapach (51:22.542)
for sure.

Ryan (51:37.918)
when a promotional company all of a sudden has an eight or nine figure tour canceled, that affects their bottom line a lot more than whether or not they're giving their artists an extra day off each week. So it's really just about weighing the pros and cons as much as it is about being humanitarian. But I get it. I mean, I'm very, very...

Kim Rapach (51:52.116)
Yeah.

Ryan (52:06.058)
careful to lay this out in my book, you know, in describing this stuff, that I understand why we had a day off once every two weeks when I was on tour. And when I say a day off, I mean, we were driving for 14 hours, you know. That's a day off, you know, playing Halo in the back lounge of your bus while you're sitting on a highway.

Kim Rapach (52:23.154)
That was your day out.

Ryan (52:33.806)
I understand why. And in particular, the first couple of years when we weren't bringing in any income, really, it was all on the record label's dime. And it was an independent label that hadn't yet gotten the influx of cash from the major label. So arguing that we need more days off to put the whole band and crew up at a hotel.

in an expensive city and allow us to just walk around and buy a nice dinner and have some self-care. That was just not in the cards at that point in terms of what could be afforded. And when you're starting a business, you could look at it like an upstart, whether it's the record label or just our band. Everyone has to tie their bootstraps tight and try to just soldier on.

and push through, but at the same time, it's not all or nothing. It's not like it's a matter of living like a king and having massages every day or being slave to the grind and literally breaking down the way that I did. Those aren't the only two options. I think that there's a balance to be struck, there's that word again, between extremes.

Kim Rapach (53:40.587)
Okay.

Ryan (53:57.83)
make, build a more sustainable model. If you're building a business, you wanna build sustainability into that model from day one so that you have a product that's out there for the long run and that when it comes time to do that, eight or nine figure tour, and you are in the level of a Taylor Swift or somebody like that, that it's a well-oiled machine in which everyone is profiting but also doing well.

Personally.

Kim Rapach (54:28.99)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, you said, you know, you're talking about pushing through and you have a chapter in your book called Try Harder. And you know, you kind of circle back later, I've just felt the connection between that chapter. But also later in the book, when you were really struggling, when you said, wait, I wrote it down, you said, if I didn't care about anything, then nothing could hurt me like that ever again. And I think

Ryan (54:37.001)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (54:56.79)
The reason why those go together for me is I think we have a lot of people, a lot of artists in all different genres, but a lot of people in the executive world, whatever it may be, who are just trying harder, who are trying to not feel. So it's like they crash, right? They crash, they clash, we're trying harder to not feel. Can you speak to that a bit?

Ryan (55:21.478)
Yeah, it's so interesting. I have more perspective on that chapter, Try Harder, now than I did even when I wrote the book, because I've been speaking on this so much and I've learned even more about what I was dealing with and why it led to the breakdown that it did. And I have a sort of a diagnosis for myself that I've never received a...

a satisfying diagnosis from a mental health perspective of what I was dealing with. I had physical issues that received diagnoses. I had a lot of inflammation, tendonitis in my shoulder. I had something called thoracic outlet syndrome, which was a nerve condition. But in terms of what was causing those things, why it was wrapped up in my psychology, I've come to understand it as something called musician's dystonia or focal dystonia, which is essentially...

kind of like a stress response or even a trauma response in which your body identifies something you're doing over and over and over again as a threat. And so rejects it and starts not allowing you to do it anymore. And for me, it was not able to coordinate playing the drums anymore. And a big symptom of that is this sense of, I'm just not trying hard enough. Like I need to try harder.

And so much of that mindset was tied up in that, but also it was tied up in the things that made me susceptible to that in the first place, because I was perfectionistic. I was sort of obsessive compulsive. I was somebody that defined myself by my accomplishments and by my ability to do everything that I did at the highest level and do it well. So there was a lot of pressure I was putting on myself. And when things weren't going well, or when I was feeling

worn down or like it was not as easy as I wanted it to be, my only solution was to try harder. It was to push through and it was to just, these vulnerable feelings that I'm having, push them out of my mind, push them down and just try to control it more, right? Exert more control over something that I felt like I was losing control over. And that's a really tough spot to be in when you feel like you don't have control over something.

Ryan (57:39.238)
and yet you're trying to exert control over that thing. And so it just kind of became this downward spiral where the harder I would try, the harder it would become. And it almost seemed like there was like an inverse proportion between effort and outcome. And the reality is that's almost exactly what it was. It was I was bearing down and grabbing the sticks too hard, trying too hard.

not just allowing it to happen, it was compounding it, and the more that would happen, it was making it more difficult for me. Being so obsessive and so compulsive about trying to overcome this fatigue and this lack of coordination and control. And the quote that you referred to is later in the book, has to do with how I was dealing with the loss of that.

not just career, but my whole identity that was wrapped up in being the drummer in Maroon 5 and how devastating and difficult that was for me to do. And so I think essentially my coping mechanism at that point was to become entirely nihilistic. I just, I don't care about anything anymore. No meaning to anything, no purpose, because it was so painful to lose something that was so meaningful and so purposeful.

that the only way I could see coping was to not care about anything. If I don't care about it, then it can't hurt me, right? But essentially what I sacrificed in doing that, in trying harder not to care in that context, was I gave up that which is essential to our being as human beings, which is creating meaning in our lives.

I do believe as, I'm sort of an existentialist by nature, I think that our biggest driving force, more than any other instinct that we have is to create meaning in our lives. And that, you know, one of the things that causes us great anxiety, as the existentialists talked about, is that, you know, inherent meaning can be elusive. You know, if you're just sitting around waiting for meaning to bonk you on the head, you can get pretty...

Ryan (59:56.43)
anxious and depressed and realized like it's not inherent necessarily that I experience meaning and purpose in life and that we have to create those things for ourselves and we have to believe in something. And first and foremost, we have to believe in ourselves, right? So since I had lost the ability to believe in myself and I had robbed myself of the investment in a sense of meaning and purpose in my life, I essentially was, you know,

committing myself to a life of depression and anxiety, just suffering through and trying to self-medicate at that point in my life the best I could, just escaping those feelings, pushing them out of my mind, and again, trying harder to not feel. But you can only run so fast from these feelings, right? And you can only run for so long, they catch up with you, sooner or later.

Kim Rapach (01:00:49.334)
For sure, and I think it's so ironic that we inevitably often cause the very thing that we're trying to avoid, right? We don't want to feel pain. We don't want to feel loss. We don't want to feel grief. We don't want to feel emotional pain. And so we try to get ahead of it or we try to stuff it down. And it's almost like we just get there faster.

Ryan (01:01:09.066)
That's very true. It's very true. Yeah, we can, I think one of the things that I realized that was a motivating factor in my recovery was realizing that to a large extent, I was the maker of my own misery at a certain point. You know, it was unfortunate that things happened the way they did. And of course, if I could go back and do them over, I would have done them a different way. But at the end of the day, you know, the past is in the past. And the things that were really painful.

had their effect and what was holding me back from finding new purpose and meaning and happiness and fulfillment in my life was the ways in which I was running from dealing with all of that. It was the self-medication, it was the avoidance of discomfort, it was the fear of change, the fear of the unknown, of taking on new challenges.

I was keeping myself, and at a certain point, it was no longer just dealing with the grief of all of that with what was in the past. I was keeping myself in that place of misery by doing those things, by self-medicating and avoiding and running and not allowing myself to start to walk through the feelings and take on new challenges. So it was when I finally, thankfully, was humbled enough.

to recognize that my way of doing things was part of the problem and not part of the solution. That I was able to ask for and receive the help that I needed in walking through that challenge of change and overcoming the fears of that and finding new solutions than the ones that I had been trying, but had been really part of the problem.

Kim Rapach (01:02:55.418)
I appreciated the part of the book where you told the story about when you moved back home and you were you talk about your nervous system. And so your partner was had already developed her own kind of rhythm with life, and it was slower and more mundane. And then you do such a beautiful job. And I think every person listening to this.

would benefit from hearing a little explanation about how you were, which we all are, like your nervous system was conditioned to this high energy. And so you were finding, you said you were finding that you were having panic attacks in the evening, even though there wasn't anything wrong. So can you speak a little bit to how our nervous system responds when maybe we're not aware? Because again, I think a lot of people think there must be something wrong with me. And when you understand how your nervous system is trying to protect you.

You have a lot more clarity and a lot more hope and it's a lot easier to ask for help.

Ryan (01:03:52.882)
Yeah, well, for me, it was interesting because touring and performance at night after night is not a lifestyle and it's not a rhythm in terms of the nervous system that most people are used to. And I mean, think about it, you spend a lot of hours, even if you're as busy as we were, in particular, when you get to the point when you're a headliner, you have a lot of hours where there's downtime.

At a certain point, right before I came home from tour, we were playing arenas. And so there were long hours that we were in a dressing room, a locker room, which was turned into a dressing room. And you couldn't really go anywhere because there were 20,000 people out there waiting to see you. So you would get mobbed if you went out there. And you might have interviews, and you might have other things that you were doing in your dressing room.

But essentially, there was a lot of downtime. And then all of a sudden, at about 10 o'clock at night every night, you have to get up for the most epic level of dopamine and adrenaline and all of these, just this excitement level. And your nervous system is, you could look at it as being in fight or flight. You could look at it as just being hyperstimulated. That's what it is really. You're hyperstimulated.

volume of the sound and the extent to which you're engaged in a process that's all consuming. And it's a lot of fun and it's exhilarating, but it's a rhythm that's like very extreme. You know, from like low energy a lot of the day to all of a sudden for an hour and a half extreme stimulation and high energy and then having to come down from that.

and try to go to sleep and get a good night of rest because you have a long day of travel or interviews or whatever the next day is a challenge. So that's what my life looked like at the end of the touring for me. And then you take that home when I wasn't able to perform and I had to go home and go to a lot of different doctors and try to figure out if there was a solution to what I was dealing with. And...

Ryan (01:06:13.63)
My girlfriend back home, we had a one bedroom apartment in LA and she was working a normal job. And so she had a normal rhythm that most people experience of the rise and fall of the day. It's not hyper stimulation and it's not low lows and high highs, it's just there's a rhythm to it. And then you go home and you go to sleep and you get up and do it again. And on the weekend you blow off some steam, but there's a natural rise and fall in rhythm to that. And then here I am.

on this whole other rhythm. And it was very apparent to us that our nervous systems were in very different places. And now here I am, you know, feeling sorry for myself that I'm not able to be out there on the road with the guys. So feeling depressed, feeling anxious and cooped up, and then trying to get to sleep at 11 or 12 o'clock at night when I would have been on stage and I would have had

the bright lights and the huge sound and the feeling of exhilaration and purpose. And instead I'm trying to recalibrate to the normal rhythm that most people have where they're winding down at that hour. And it was really challenging. And it actually, there's a lot of reasons why it turned into panic attacks for me. And part of it was just that my heart would start racing when I was laying in bed and I would just have to get up and go for a walk.

But there was also trauma involved in it for me. There was breaking down on stage night after night over a long period of touring. I think that I was reliving some of those experiences of feeling like I was really drowning on stage when I was laying in bed and sort of feeling my heart racing, feeling my body picking up the way it would.

had I been on stage at that hour. And so for a lot of reasons at that point in my life, I was experiencing what I would describe as a trauma response that became nightly panic attacks. And that's when the drinking started creeping up. So, I mean, the nervous system and the way that these things manifest trauma, manifests in the body in that way. We talk about the body keeps the score. That's the way in which it happens. Your nervous system basically,

Ryan (01:08:39.582)
integrates this experience of extreme stimulation that comes from something that is traumatic. And then you bring that home with you and you have to recalibrate to normal living, but now you have this thing wired into your nervous system that you have to get up and be ready to perform in some way. That's what happened for me and that's what I think a lot of people probably experience when they're living that lifestyle.

and having to recalibrate to normal life after.

I've already really enjoyed this. A question I have for you is, you know, I mean, you're in a great place now. And I would ask how much of the joy, contentment, healthy relationships you have today, do you attribute to your successes as a musician?

Ryan (01:21:25.362)
Well, I mean, I think that the success that we had gave me a lot of freedom in my life. I think that it's hard to imagine where I would be were it not for that, because my life would be very different. So to sort of pull that out and say it had no effect would be difficult. At the same time...

You know, my life is really not necessarily about music or that life very much anymore. The things that I'm doing are largely, you know, more directed and come from a place of being of service and, you know, writing the book has been one of the most, was maybe the most fulfilling process I've had in recent years. And,

Because at my core, I think I'm a creative person and it was another project that was very much, a sense of purpose and flow for me and something that I was very much in it in a really engaging and fulfilling way. But that being said, that book obviously doesn't exist if my past and music hadn't informed it.

And so they're inextricably linked. You can't really disconnect the things I'm doing now from the things I was doing then completely. But I didn't.

Kim Rapach (01:22:58.976)
Yeah, your story is unique, I think, because a lot of times people are running from like childhood trauma. And you've spoken that that's not really your situation, right?

Ryan (01:23:11.19)
Yes and no, I mean the thing is that I didn't experience any overt childhood trauma. I was very blessed to have a very loving supportive family. There was no abuse or neglect or any kind of addiction or anything in my household. So yeah, in that regard there weren't those origin stories that you hear about in that regard. However, I do recognize that the intergenerational trauma was a factor. My parents both

uh, experienced trauma in their own lives and even some that was passed down, uh, through the, through their ancestors. Um, and, and I have a friend who's a trauma specialist who said something to me that was really interesting and I hadn't thought about it in this way. When we talk about trauma and how it's passed down, it's not necessarily the trauma itself that's passed down. It's the coping mechanisms that get passed down, right? It's the ways in which one person had to cope with their trauma that affects the next generation.

And so, you know, in terms of my parents, both loving, wonderful people, they gave me a lot of great things in my childhood. You know, my mom has some PTSD from her childhood. She has the anxiety and depression she has dealt with in her life. And that has made her a very sensitive person in some ways. That could be challenging in other ways. It was wonderful. So, I mean, I, you know, I think I dealt with temperamentally being maybe more sensitive.

and more like my mom in that regard, which has both allowed me and given me the gift of being an empathic person, being a compassionate person, but also having my own challenges with anxiety and depression and some of the coping mechanisms that might have not have been as helpful. Then on the other side, my dad is an opposite extreme in that he had his own traumas and his coping mechanisms are that he's a control freak.

you know, and a type A personality and just kind of hyperactive and always going and doing and fixing and caring for people. And again, wonderful, beautiful things that can be very helpful, but also can have problems when not balanced, right? And I think I inherited those things from him. I think that I inherited my work ethic and my sort of perfectionism and things like that from him. But also I inherited this sort of hyper focus.

Ryan (01:25:32.858)
obsessive compulsive nature that can be at times a challenge as much as it is a blessing. So I think that those things that were passed down through the generations certainly informed my story, but it was the actual trauma that I experienced happened much later. Again, though, it's interesting. I have learned even more since I've written the book. And at the time that I wrote the book, I looked at the breakdown that I experienced on the road as the trauma that I've had to overcome.

my addiction, the thing that drove the major anxiety and depression that I dealt with. But I allude to it in the book, but I have better understanding of it now that those things existed before that happened, right? I think that the breakdown that occurred and as devastating as that was, was really the ultimate culmination of things that had occurred.

in smaller versions before that. That's why I included in the book, you know, the story with baseball that kind of mirrors the breakdown that I had later in a smaller form. And I think that even some of the experiences that I had in that regard were traumatic in their own ways and kind of set the stage for the later traumas that came. Because, you know, I had injuries that I tried to play through and I, you know, we talked about this earlier, the encouragement that I got.

The kind of feedback that I got from the culture of the athletes, the coaches, the peers, was just to tough it out. It was just to try harder and not, you know, you weren't supposed to complain. And I was playing through pain and I was playing through injury and there wasn't a space for me to be allowed to show vulnerability. And that was traumatic for me because that ended up

with me putting myself in positions that weren't safe, that were causing more injury, because I didn't feel safe speaking up and saying I was in pain. And then getting bullied, I'm being called a wimp or whatever, a worse word than that, when I just couldn't hack it anymore. And so you take that, the tracks had sort of been laid in that regard, and then you put myself in a high pressure situation where I'm putting a lot of pressure on myself.

Kim Rapach (01:27:43.413)
Peace.

Ryan (01:27:50.09)
and the intersection of those things, and then on a scale where the stakes were much higher. And then I had a significant breakdown that impacted me in a more significant way. So ultimately, that was the moment when things in my life were most impacted and most affected, but that wasn't the beginning of the story.

Kim Rapach (01:27:55.605)
Right.

Kim Rapach (01:28:12.756)
Sure. Well, we're back to the nervous system, right? Like your nervous system remembers, like it's not safe to say you're in pain. So even as an adult, your brain was conditioned, your nervous system was conditioned in little league. That like, just keep going, push through, don't complain.

And like you said, when the stakes are that much higher, the tracks were laid. I like how you said that. So the work of a warrior is when we take care of ourselves first, so that we can have a greater impact on the world.

And when we are well, people around us benefit, right? They have a better chance of wellness and more joy and things like that. What do you do on a regular basis? Like, do you have non-negotiables that you do to maintain your mental health?

Ryan (01:29:02.406)
Absolutely. You know, a lot of people that I have met in recovery from addiction will say that, you know, sobriety is their number one. And some people can't understand that. They say, well, even above, you know, your family, your kids, your spouse, your work, sobriety is number one. That's kind of selfish, some people might think. And the reality is, you know, those people would

I'm not helping any of those things. I can't be a good parent. I can't be a good partner. I can't, my work suffers. My whole life could fall apart if I don't make my sobriety number one. So I get that completely. Now for me, I have a slightly different take on that. I would say that self-care in general is number one because sobriety for me is really just a way of life. I would just assume,

arsenic as I would drink alcohol at this point, because I know it's just entirely toxic for me. That's not for everyone. There are people that are able to drink moderately and it doesn't affect their life in a negative way. For me, I'm not willing to take that risk. So it's not even really on the menu for me at this point. And so it's not a daily thing for me. Like I need to figure out how to stay sober today anymore, thankfully. Very grateful for that. However, you know, self care, making sure that I'm

taking care of myself to a degree that I'm putting myself in the position to be most well, mentally, physically, spiritually as well. You know, from a holistic perspective, taking, nourishing not just my body, but nourishing my mind and my soul. You know, those are the things that allow me to be the best version of myself on any given day, which might not be always, you know, the best version of me.

We all have our limitations and we have good days and bad days. But the best version of me on that day, given the circumstances of that moment in my life, is going to be achieved if I'm taking care of myself. Which means that I'm going to be the best version of myself I can be on that day in my relationships, in my work, in the things that I do creatively, and just in my experience of living, the pleasure that I take from the things that I do and the ways that I'm able to be present for the things in my life.

Ryan (01:31:29.614)
It's, you know, some of that stuff is very simple. I mean, for me, it's just, I know that if I don't get enough rest, if I don't get enough sleep, everything suffers. My mood is worse. I'm not a pleasant person to be around. Uh, everything feels like a chore. My work suffers. Like I'm not helping anyone if I don't make sure that I prioritize that first and foremost, sleep is the number one and I, I can't compromise that. Like if somebody says to me, Hey, I got this big thing you could do. Uh, 10 o'clock tomorrow night.

and then this big thing to do at eight o'clock the next morning. I'm like, that's not going to work for me. We're going to have to find a different way to do that, different timing, because one of those things is going to suffer, and that's going to throw off my week, and I'm going to be making up for that night where I didn't get enough sleep. And so it's like I have to prioritize that. I have to make sure that that's a big part of my self-care. And it extends to everything in terms of the body, you know, it's exercise and...

and diet and all that stuff within reason. I mean, you know, there's a balance to life. I don't think you have to be the perfect, you know, the perfection is an illusion. You know, just the healthy version of me as much as I can in all of those regards.

Kim Rapach (01:32:40.296)
and like paying attention to what makes you feel certain ways. Right? You feel better when you're hydrated. You feel better when you have fruits and vegetables as opposed to cake and cookies. Like what makes you feel good?

Ryan (01:32:45.082)
Right, right, being my f- Yeah!

Ryan (01:32:53.726)
Yeah, I've realized, I mean, especially being a sober person, you know, obviously, I understand the extent to which, you know, drinking alcohol was toxic for me. But even having been to that extreme, I think I'm much more tuned in to like how things affect me now. So like if I have a little bit too much caffeine or sugar or too many carbs or, you know, I notice how I feel different, you know. And that's not to say that I can't have any sugar ever. I can't have any carbs.

It just means, you know, to be mindful of the balance of things and to make sure that in general, I'm, you know, conscious of the choices that I'm making that affect how I feel. And that extends, you know, to your psychology and to your spirit. You know, I know that for me, you know, a lot of the things that I do are, it's heavy work. You know, you're dealing with people that are having emotional...

you know, challenges in their life or really just heavy moments in their life where they're dealing with loss or transition. And if I add to that, you know, watching a lot of the news that's telling me all the terrible things that are going on a daily basis and not careful about the extent to which I'm constantly putting really heavy, dark things in my mind and soul, then I'm, you know, my experience of living is going to be one-sided.

And so I try to do things that embrace a lighter side of my being. For me, playing sports is a way to connect to my youth and my inner child. Softball is a very innocent way of connecting to my first love and passion of baseball at this point in my life. It's something I do now a couple times a week. And I realize I look forward to that because it's like.

What I'm playing, I'm completely immersed in a flow activity. It's something that has immediate feedback, and it's a challenge. But it's also just feeling like I'm 12 years old again and just competing and having fun and exerting myself. Except the stakes are much lower now. It's just for fun and getting together with a bunch of people and playing the game. So great. Right. So it's great.

Kim Rapach (01:35:01.889)
Yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:35:07.052)
There aren't any mean coaches.

Ryan (01:35:10.942)
So to me, that's a big part of my self-care because it's nourishing my inner child and it's giving myself something that's not heavy and not dark and then just being mindful of the things that lift my spirit up. It's like if I'm gonna listen to some heavy rock, I might wanna listen to something that's happy and uplifting as well. If I'm gonna watch a movie that's about torment and loss or existential angst.

then I might want to follow that up with something that is, reminds me of love and joy. And just recognizing that my spirit and my soul needs that nourishment as much as my body does.

Kim Rapach (01:35:56.116)
So much self-awareness. I always say self-attunement, attune, attune. You are very self-attuned. I love it. Okay, I will only ask you two more quick questions. What, one, what would you say to a new artist coming into the industry, whether it be music or acting or any entertainment, form of entertainment, what would you say to a new person in the industry?

Ryan (01:36:08.337)
Okay.

Ryan (01:36:21.414)
I would say two things that I would say to my younger self if I could go back in time. One is, you know, I think when I was going into this, into that world seriously, professionally, I didn't want to see it as a job and I didn't want to see it as, you know, I had been an athlete, I had been academic.

And I saw this as art and I saw it as expression and therefore a very different world. And I didn't wanna think of myself as an athlete having to perform at a high level in that way. And I didn't wanna think of it as a job in which I had to perform with a certain level of expectation. I wanted it desperately to just be fun and to be...

an uplifting, connecting experience, a spiritual experience. But that's an element of it, but there's so much more to it that to do it at the highest level, you do have to, to a certain extent, treat yourself like an athlete or like anyone who's being asked to perform at a high level in anything. Even if it's not, it doesn't feel that way. Even if when you get on stage, it feels like fun and you feel like I just wanna sing and I just wanna dance or I just wanna...

play my guitar or whatever it is. The reality is that life, once you are living it at that level, the demands are going to become greater and greater. And you will have to treat yourself with the kind of self care that is required of somebody that is at the high level of any level of performance. There was a time, especially in baseball, I think, when you could have a gut and get out there on the mound. After a night of drinking beer.

and smoking cigarettes. And that was par for the course. In this day and age, it's not. I mean, there's probably exceptions to the rule, but in general, everyone out there in that field has a routine on a daily and weekly basis that is very much wrapped it up in how they're making sure their body is able to perform at that level day in and day out. And psychologically and emotionally, how they're able to deal with the stress of that. So I think that if you're being mindful of that

Ryan (01:38:40.83)
before you are there, you're gonna fare a lot better when you get there than if you all of a sudden are in that situation, you haven't been taking care of yourself, the demands that are on you now are not things you've been prepared for, been working towards, in terms of how you are going to manage and cope with those things. Then all of a sudden you're dealing with all of that, it's a little too late, you're probably already breaking down before you've even developed the skills to figure out how to cope with it.

in a healthy way. So as much as it's no fun to think of yourself and take yourself that seriously as a performer, the performers that I see that maintain a career and are able to stay at that level are people that learn how to turn it into both passion and fun, but also consider it a career and a job and something that requires a lot of time,

caring for those elements that will prepare you for those things. The other element, that was a long way to answer, I apologize. The first one. The second half of that, the other thing I would say is, as a young person, and I don't know if it applies to everyone, but it certainly applied to me, and I'm sure it applies to more people than would probably admit to it.

Kim Rapach (01:39:48.047)
Alright, I love it. See you in time. Here you go.

Ryan (01:40:07.262)
People of all ages, but in particular, young people tend to have defensiveness when it comes to being open to criticism or staying teachable. I know for me, being sort of perfectionistic, I held myself to high standards. But if I recognized something that I hadn't really learned, I wasn't really good at, and there was some level of me having to admit fault,

or accept criticism or take a suggestion, I would get very defensive. It's the pride of youth. And I think that for people that are very invested in their art and in their craft, it can be hard to take suggestion or criticism. And I think that the best advice I could give is to stay teachable, to stay open to the idea that we're always learning. We're always...

hopefully growing and finding new and better ways of doing things that, you know, if you can incorporate those things and have a mindset of growth, a mindset that if something is challenging, there's an opportunity there to learn and to grow. It's not a threat. It's not something that's gonna make you look bad. It's another avenue to walk down that could be fulfilling.

that could offer you something that you don't already have that can enhance what you do even more. That goes a long way. Whatever you do, as an actor, it's being able to take direction. As a writer, taking criticism, as an artist, recognizing, well, that didn't work. So let me try this. Let me try something different that I haven't tried yet. And just being teachable, just being open to what might be actually helpful.

See you in your process.

Kim Rapach (01:42:03.6)
Love it. So my last question, I have a disclaimer, a generalized disclaimer that this podcast is not, certainly not a replacement for mental health, care or treatment. But as someone who has wrestled with depression, anxiety, perfectionist tendencies, addiction, what would you offer as encouragement to someone who is suffering in silence?

Ryan (01:42:35.326)
Well, I think it's part of the reason why I have made it my mission to tell my story at first writing the book and then promoting it and speaking about it is that we do need role models and we do need stories that help people see that they're not alone. The reality is, and it sounds cliché, is you're not alone. Whatever you're feeling, there are a lot of other people out there right now feeling the very same thing.

However, whatever you're dealing with, it can feel very isolating, especially when you're not reaching out and connecting with people about it. It's kind of ironic. It's something we were talking about earlier in terms of the very thing that would help you most is what you're avoiding or the very thing you're doing to cope is actually making it worse. The first tendency with so many things is to isolate, right? Or to pull away.

to assume that people aren't going to understand. And yeah, that there's gonna be stigma, that there's gonna be... And so the advice that I give to people that are caregivers or family members or friends is the best gift you can give to somebody who's struggling is to give them the avenue to connect.

Kim Rapach (01:43:39.316)
or they're going to judge you. Yeah.

Ryan (01:44:02.538)
give them the opportunity to express what they're isolated with or bottling up. When you tell somebody, I want to understand what you're experiencing, not let me fix it for you, not let me give you a solution, but help me understand, I want to understand what you're going through. You're offering somebody a gift because connection.

is it goes such a long way in terms of battling the things that, you know, what's the opposite of connection? It's isolation, disconnection, you know, spiritually feeling alienated and not a part of something larger than ourselves. And so as a starting point, being plugged in, feeling in the same way that music in my teen years helped me feel connected and

and help with those feelings of alienation and disillusionment, the solution to so many of our issues as a starting point is feeling something that we can connect to that is bigger than ourselves that allows us to feel seen, to feel understood, and to feel represented. Because again, if you're feeling it, there's probably a lot of other people out there feeling it.

So we need those stories. We need people to represent in a way that is connecting, but also that is uplifting, that allows a solution or offers hope that there are solutions. But I think also the other part of that answer is what I just said in the previous question, it's being open. You know, because our defense mechanisms a lot of times is like, well, nobody will understand and it's scary to open yourself up to the idea that somebody...

might have something that could be helpful or that it will require change. It will require stepping into uncomfortable spaces because we sometimes get so comfortable in our own misery that we can't see that the thing that we're avoiding is actually going to help us. And so being open to that change, being open to walking into those uncomfortable spaces, that might actually be the thing that helps you most. That goes a long way as well.

Ryan (01:46:27.388)
to finding some solutions.

Kim Rapach (01:46:29.344)
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because, you know, we are, we, we get used to, you know, coping with things a certain way. And, you know, what I always tell my coaching clients is, you know, we don't have to be mad about it, right? Those coping mechanisms kept you alive and now they're hurting you. And so I think sometimes like you said, that change can be so scary. Um, but it, you know, going through it, I think you said the only way through it is through it, right? The only way to get through it is to go through it. And I think that's so well said because on the other side of it, it's so

liberating and your story is such a testimony to that. So thank you for being here and sharing your story and your wisdom and your experience and I'm just really grateful.

Ryan (01:47:13.706)
Thank you so much, Kim. I appreciate that and I appreciate this opportunity to speak on all these topics today. This was a lot of fun.

Kim Rapach (01:47:24.236)
All right, thank you. And thank you for being so patient with the technical difficulties. I was so excited when I finally got internet and logged back on and I saw it said recording. I'm like, oh my gosh, she's still here. I'm impressed, go grab your lunch. Oh shoot, you know what? I can cut all that out. Do you want me to ask where people can find you? That was the one question I forgot to ask you.

Ryan (01:47:37.596)
Yeah.

Ryan (01:47:48.455)
Oh, sure, yeah.

Kim Rapach (01:47:49.532)
Okay. So again, thank you very much, Ryan. Where can people find you and your book and the work that you're doing as a therapist?

Ryan (01:47:58.922)
Well, the one stop shop of course is my website, RyanDusick.com. That'll have everything that has to do with my book and my work as a therapist and coach and speaker. Of course you can pick up my book on Amazon or anywhere that they sell books, harder to breathe. That's it, right there. And then if you wanna keep up with me, in terms of social media, on Instagram, at Ryan Michael Dusick.

I post old videos, new videos, a lot of stuff pertaining to my past and my present, all rolled into one, so that's kind of fun. So those are kind of the main spots.

Kim Rapach (01:48:38.932)
Okay, thank you again. Thank you so much for being here. I'm very grateful and just thank you for all that you brought to the work of warriors today.

Ryan (01:48:47.55)
Thank you so much, I appreciate it.