Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Rural voters keep hearing about scandal in Washington, but most of it never gets past the surface. Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark Podcast, joins Heidi to dig into what's actually driving political corruption right now, from foreign money shaping U.S. policy to the insider trading scandals barely making headlines.
Tim traces how political corruption has evolved, from straightforward kickbacks to the foreign money now quietly steering decisions on war and energy. He and Heidi also get into what's happening back home in North Dakota, where data centers are reshaping local economies and testing what rural communities are willing to trade for growth.
In this episode:
- How decades of scandal have made it normal for politicians to profit off their power
- How foreign money, especially from the Gulf states, shapes U.S. decisions on war and energy
- Insider trading and bribery in how political campaigns get funded
- What the lawsuits against Trump show about deeper corruption
- The midterm outlook in Iowa and North Dakota, and why low voter enthusiasm could hurt incumbents
- How data centers are changing rural economies and who actually benefits
- Why Democrats keep losing the messaging fight, and what could turn that around
Connect with Tim Miller
Corruption doesn't announce itself. Tim and Heidi tell you where to actually look.
The Hot Dish is brought to you by the One Country Project. To learn more, visit OneCountryProject.org, or find us on Substack (Onecountryproject.substack.com), and on YouTube, Bluesky, and Facebook (@onecountryproject).
- (00:00) - -- Opening: family updates and life outside politics
- (01:52) - -- Corruption in government, from foreign money to insider access
- (06:18) - -- Banking litigation and what discovery could reveal
- (08:44) - -- Why corruption feels different now
- (10:02) - -- Midterm strategy, Iowa, and the rural political map
- (13:51) - -- Redistricting, turnout, and the enthusiasm gap
- (17:06) - -- Corruption, broken promises, and the forever war
- (20:45) - -- Oil profits and Trump's shifting base
- (23:36) - -- Data centers and rural backlash
- (29:34) - -- Trump's declining visibility in rural America
- (31:41) - -- Democrats, socialism messaging, and the real majority
- (39:05) - -- How Democrats should respond
Creators and Guests
Host
Heidi Heitkamp
U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp served as the first female senator elected from North Dakota from 2013 – 2019. he is the founder and Chair of the One Country Project, an organization focused on addressing the needs and concerns of rural America. Heidi was recently named the Director of the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago, a university she has long been committed to and a place where she enjoys engaging with students over civic discussions while encouraging them to seek opportunities in public service to our country. Heidi also serves as a contributor to both CNBC and ABC News.
Host
LA
Producer
Laura Anderson
What is The Hot Dish?
Former U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp and her brother, KFGO radio talk show host Joel Heitkamp, engage in animated discussions with newsmakers, elected leaders, and policymakers who are creating new opportunities for rural Americans and finding practical solutions to their challenges. Punctuated with entertaining conversations and a healthy dose of sibling rivalry, The Hot Dish, from the One Country Project, is informative, enlightening, and downright fun.
heidi (00:04)
Welcome back to the Hot Dish Comfort Food for Rural America. I'm Heidi Heikamp and usually with me is Joel Heikamp. But we have more excitement in our family than we care to talk about. His grandson is in the Little League World Series, playing outfield and ⁓ I think batting like eighth, seventh or eighth. And so it's just been big fun to watch. And so Joel's a little preoccupied, Tim, and he sends his apologies because he really wanted to, you know,
pick your brain on what you think's gonna happen. But ⁓ you know, a y as a father, you know.
Tim (00:38)
He's doing more important stuff.
I get it. I get it. I missed one of my one of my daughter's basketball games this year that I was the coach of and it killed me. It was I was I just couldn't handle it. Second grade wreck basketball. So I know how it is. I'll I'll She's good, yeah. We gotta work on the mental game, you know? She's a little like the athl the the s skills are there, but sometimes, you know, she's imagining what's happening in the magical forest instead of playing defense, you know?
heidi (00:48)
I
Is she a good b is she a good ball player?
Ha ha
My daughter played basketball. You know, and in Mandan basketball was really competitive. And she started out playing basketball. And I went to a game. ⁓ and ⁓ she was she was tall. She's always been tall. And so she was playing and we get that she loses by one point, right? So we're walking out and she's bouncing, she's so happy. And ⁓ I said, You're pretty cheer chipper for a girl who just lost a ball game. She goes, Mom.
All those girls said they liked playing against me best. I said I don't think basketball is your game, hun. You better you better go swimming because
Tim (01:42)
That's for you. Okay. Well We'll see how it goes. I don't know. Yeah, no. My
daughter can make the my daughter's got it. So I guess we just gotta get the get the killer instinct. We'll see. Who knows? Life's a journey.
heidi (01:55)
You know, and wouldn't it be nice if in the United States of America that this is the stuff we talk about instead of wringing our hands and worrying every day about the state of our democracy? I mean, it it it is absolutely amazing to me the kinds of things that are going on. And you and I have been in this game for a long time, me longer than you. But have you did you ever think, Tim, that you would see this level of corruption? This level of corruption in government.
And have somebody get by with it where there isn't, you know, the the where they're not storming the capital demanding that things change.
Tim (02:33)
Yeah. We don't want any s more storming of the Capitol. That first one didn't go well. But ⁓ yeah, I I understand what you meant figuratively. I it's hard to kind of wrap your head around the scale of it. You know, I the other day I was when I was on the Buller show, I was I was kind of live googling 'cause 'cause I remembered kind of reading and learning about the Spiro Agnew s you know.
heidi (02:36)
Yeah.
Tim (02:55)
Corruption when he was Nixon's VP and then he ends up resigning. And it somehow came up a conversation with one of the guests, and I'm like live Googling it. I was How much money did Spiro Agnew take? And it was like, in in today's money, it was like 120 grand or something. I'm going from memory now. ⁓ but you know, then it was like 20 grand or something, something to this fact. And it's like I he get he resigns the vice presidency over this, is run out on a rail, and you know, of the Hunter Biden scandals, there's plenty of stuff critical.
Worth criticizing Hunter Biden over. I don't know that his paintings are worth what he's selling them for, but ⁓ you know, like all this is such small potatoes compared to the scale of what these guys are doing. I I mean, the the point person for the Iran and and it impacts everything. It's not just that they're making themselves rich. Like the point person for the Iran war negotiation is also on the take from the Saudis.
heidi (03:37)
Yeah yeah.
Yeah, and and
I I think the other thing people should understand is a lot of this largesse, a lot of this money is coming from foreign countries that want to, you know, basically get influence, want to basically have their way with this administration. So it's not just the level of corruption, you know, you know, defense contracts or whatever it is. It's a level of corruption in context of the engagement with foreign ⁓
Tim (03:56)
Yeah.
heidi (04:15)
Really, in many cases, adversaries. And so
Tim (04:17)
Yeah, adversaries
or people that were neg that are directly impacted by the stupid war that he started and with Iran. I you know, look, I I mean, who knows exactly what the corruption is, exactly what the quid pro quota is? We'll be learning about this in, Maggie Haverman books for years to come. But like we have this plane from Cutter. Qatar is impacted by the war, right? Like they're getting attacked by Iran. Jared is on the payroll of Saudi. The Trump family is in a crypto deal with the UAE.
And all this stuff is huge, huge money, billions of dollars. I mean like kind of unimaginable sums of money that are flowing to the Trump family from these Gulf states. And so that obviously is impacting their influence on decisions of war and peace, decisions regarding our troops. Like this is why you didn't do this is why you need to have separation from this. It's like you don't want to have somebody to have a hotline to the White House when it comes to what should what should we do about the Strait of Hormuz? And it's like, well, Trump
heidi (04:51)
Yeah.
Tim (05:16)
We have to listen to the what the UAE wants because remember they're our crypto partners in the crypto business.
heidi (05:21)
Yeah. Well, and then you think about Truth Social and basically saying, if you want an advance on what I'm thinking, so you can run to the stock market and engage in insider trading, you can pay to have that level of access. And that all goes in my personal pocket. And it it is
Tim (05:38)
Yeah. Heidi, this is just
a bribe. I want to just call this a bribe because people get confused by all this stuff, right? Like it it gets complicated. It's like for people who aren't investors themselves are like, okay, so what? So like investors get early access to his tweets. No, like all this is if you know that Trump's about to tweet, whatever, we're bombing Iran again, then you know gas prices are going to go up. You know you can invest in oil. So if you have a 10 minute head start on everybody else before he tweets it, and you learn about it.
heidi (05:43)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah. But
Tim (06:06)
then you can put a bunch of money into oil futures, make a bunch, yeah, short or long, depending. Yeah. Make a bunch of money for yourself. And and and what how did you get access to that? By bribing the Trump family. You paid to get early access. Like that's what it is.
heidi (06:09)
short it or long you know, buy it or short it. It it
So Tim, I'm wondering, are you are you paying attention to the Citibank litigation?
Tim (06:27)
I I mean a little bit, yeah.
heidi (06:28)
Yeah, well, what's interesting is it's the first time, you know, he's basically sued Citibank because they unbanked him after he left the White House. And he they said it was all woke capitalism and you know, and so they sued the Trump organization sued ⁓ the bank. And the bank basically said, No, that had nothing to do with it. It was all anti money laundering triggers. And so right now, yeah.
Tim (06:30)
Well you're what?
Yeah. That was capital one, right?
heidi (06:56)
So
Tim (06:56)
Yeah.
heidi (06:56)
so it's like i you know, it's gonna be interesting because what we're gonna find out through litigation, whether it's BBC ⁓ you know, basically pushing back, hopefully, you know, it will show American media corporations that they ought to push back. They could get some juicy information. And, you know, they're they're trying to dance on the, you know, as a lawyer, I can tell you that this idea that they're gonna get by with not doing discovery in in
those cases is crazy. And so it's gonna be you know, but it's gonna be years before we see it. And then it's all gonna be the orange guy saying it's a hoax and everybody saying, yeah, it's a hoax. They're just picking on him. The whole while he's fleecing the country and and basically enriching himself to the injury of so many Americans.
Tim (07:46)
Yeah, I mean, one way I try to disentangle this when thinking about it, and and I'm certainly gonna be interested in what we learn from what's happening to Trump's bank accounts. I I think people bought like it was priced in that Trump was ⁓ you know, was was a shady yeah, shady, right? Like nobody even even Trump supporters, you would say, Do you really think he paid all of his taxes? Do you really think that he didn't screw people over in business?
heidi (08:05)
A grifter?
Tim (08:16)
Like most of them I think would say, no, of course he did 'cause he's smart, 'cause he's a sh savvy businessman. Like that's what he did, right? Like I think that's even what his supporters would say. I don't think anybody would say that, ⁓ you know, he's as clean as a whistle. He crossed all his T's and dotted all his I's in his bank forms. Like I don't think anybody thinks that. so I think that's where he's important and it'll be kind of interesting to see how that plays out. I think the difference between that and what is happening now this term with some of the more public corruption.
Is that I people thought that they were gonna be on the side of the shady businessman and they were gonna get theirs. You know what I mean? It's kind of like I think people look at Trump, some some of the Trump voters look at it and it's like, you know, if he needs to cut corners to be a tough businessman, like we'll let him have it. But I what I get out of it in exchange is the economy's gonna be good. We have a smart businessman in charge, he's gonna take care of my interests, not the interests of the coastal elites.
And it's like that's not happening this time, right? Like the economy is bad. The economy is particularly bad in farm country. People are like, why are we spending all this money in Iran? Because Israel was in the situation room telling him to do so. Like he's making all this money. I'm losing money. I I I think that like the corruption story tied to the economy, I think, is much more dangerous for him than some of the personal stuff. If that makes sense.
heidi (09:37)
Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, but if you look at Hungary, ⁓ you know, they made corruption n their kind of number one issue and we're able to see some political change there. And so I th I think people are starting to kind of wonder about the level of the grift. And so, you know, that that that that'll all play out. But the question is, how does that play out in the midterms?
Tim (09:50)
Yeah.
heidi (10:02)
I want to ask you about the wisdom of doing this ⁓ midterm convention that they're gonna do in Dallas, whether that's really smart or not. But but you know, let's talk a little bit about the midterms and what you're seeing out there. You're you're out and about. Obviously, you guys have a great audience ⁓ that that really wants to see you in person. You guys are really, I think, building an incredibly strong kind of network of people out there. But
But in that admit it, I mean, in some ways you're preaching to the choir, you know, the people who come there come to hear you guys you know, ⁓ talk about ⁓ you know, how bad this is. ⁓ but but so when you're out there and you, you know, as somebody who's done politics, who's thought about how do you get people to vote, what are you seeing in your travels? What do you what do you think you're seeing in the tea leaves right now for the midterms?
Tim (10:56)
Yeah. I mean, no doubt anybody listening to a daily Never Trump politics podcast is, you know, I'm not I'm not reaching too many swing voters ⁓ on that. And the general election people are self selecting in. And so I I think that's why it's important I try to do I try to get outside the bubble as much as possible and go into other outlets. I think that the YouTube thing that we're doing is interesting because algorithmically it gets delivered to people that aren't choosing to come, which has its own potential problems. But but you know, at least it's a way of reaching people.
heidi (11:01)
Ha ha
Tim (11:26)
I don't I was in Iowa for ⁓ covering ⁓ Pete was campaigning with Josh Turek ⁓ and so and and Rob Sand. So I saw some of that. I think the Iowa race is interesting. Obviously I live in Louisiana, which is a red state. the Iowa story, you know, I Iowa was a swing state not that long ago. I worked to campaign in Iowa in we are getting old, two thousand six. And it was swing then. You know, that was a Republican year.
⁓ but the Democrats won it back. Jim or excuse me, Jim Nossel gave back to Chuck Culver. So, you know, Iowa was swinged for a while, and then Trump came in, and a lot of the rural parts of the state went from being kind of lean Republican to just overwhelmingly Republican. Like he just re shaped the electorate in big ways. You saw this in North Dakota. But, you know.
There there still is that memory there. Like there are people there that have voted for Democrats in the past in Iowa. And Iowa, unlike North Dakota, has more kind of, you know, bigger college towns and big city you know, some bigger cities. And so I you know, there are more urban voters there. And I I think that both of those guys have a chance to win. And like their message was so focused on economic stuff, the problems in the farm farm country, healthcare. There's a huge cancer crisis in Iowa right now, that nobody is
heidi (12:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Tim (12:43)
As has been dealing with and the Republicans running the state. And just this sense that like nobody's working for them anymore. And I think this is where it ties to the corruption stuff, right? That it's like, you know, these Republicans have been in power for for so long that what's the line that Rob Sand was using? It was something you'd know better than me as a farm grow. ⁓ something about we gotta change the crops every once in a while. You know, you have one crop that yeah, you gotta rotate the crops, rotate the crops. Yeah, and it's just like, you know, if you have one crop.
heidi (13:06)
Rotate. Gotta rotate the cops.
Tim (13:12)
side in for a while, they end up getting out of touch with people's concerns. And so he him and Turk are running kind of on a both populist and pragmatic, I would say, type of message. ⁓ that I I I thought was pretty compelling. ⁓ you see the poll numbers there, ⁓ sans up a little, Turk's down a little. Trump won by ten points. It's gonna be tough. I I don't I don't think that's a gimme by any means. But you know, I I think that some of these states are in play
heidi (13:22)
Mm.
Tim (13:40)
You know, where Democrats have strong candidates because of how out of touch the G O P leadership has been. I'd look at Alaska too, it'd be another one, Texas.
heidi (13:49)
You know, I I I I'm one of the few people who will basically say, I think this is going to be a huge swing. a lot of people, you know, they're afraid by redistricting. I I'm like, so you took strong democratic districts and spread them around. I don't know that that was your best idea. ⁓ especially before, yeah, yeah, ba especially based on twenty twenty four, where Trump did well among young people, did well fairly well among Hispanic voters.
and some African American males. And you know, so so I I I'm not as intimidated by ⁓ redistricting as a lot of people. But I think, and you you you've done this, i you look at the races that not not the the campaigns, but you look at the interim elections, whether it's a local Mississippi legislative district or whether it is a swing district in Tennessee that is plus
30 that then goes plus 10 for Republicans. I think there's going to be a big swing. And I think it's driven not as much by, you know, Trump voters saying I was wrong, I'm going to go to the polls, but it's Trump voters staying home. The enthusiasm gap for Republicans is palatable. And Democrats are mad, you know, and they want to have their say at the ballot box.
Tim (15:14)
Hmm. ⁓ I have a question for you, but I'll just I would add one thing to that. The Democrat this coalition change we were talking about, where like Republicans ended up picking up a lot of kind of working class voters, people who hadn't gone to college, people who have low trust in in societal institutions, and like the Democrats picked up like my people, like college educated suburban Republicans who were grossed out by Trump. that was a bad trade for the Democrats, like in the Senate.
heidi (15:21)
Mm.
Mm.
Tim (15:44)
because you know, in red states and places like North Dakota and Iowa, it was a bad trade in a lot of places. It was a good trade in one area, which is midterm elections. Because the people they picked up are the people who go vote every time, right? Like they're on the school board, they pay attention to the news, they know that elections are up. And Trump picked up a lot of people that like don't pay attention to politics that much. They just kind of like him.
heidi (15:54)
Mm.
Tim (16:09)
They don't vote in midterms as much. So I think that like you add that on top of what you're talking about. Trump voters being dispirited, not wanting to turn out, feeling like they don't care, he's not on the ballot, a lot of obviously energy on the left, wanting to push back. I I I agree with you. I d the question is, what's the scale? And I and I do think, you know, if you look at these Senate seats, Ohio the ones I just mentioned, Ohio, Texas, Iowa, Alaska, and he won those seats by twelve points. I don't
Like d the and the Democrats need to win a couple of those to take the Senate. You you're really confident that that the swing is that big?
heidi (16:44)
Yeah, I am actually. And you know, I I will have to be eating a lot of crow if it's not. But but I will tell you ⁓ the other barometer and you watch it and I watch it, it's the index of consumer sentiment, w regardless of which one you look at. It's never been lower. And and so people are dispirited.
That that the only question that you have is if they say pox on all of your houses, we're we're done thinking politicians have any worth at all and we're all gonna stay home. But I don't think that's gonna happen with the with the Democratic vote. I think they're gonna go out and say ⁓ we can't and that's where the corruption and the lying, I mean, this whole thing with the reflecting pool, I mean it is small potatoes, but it is it always th you know, there's a line which is
If you lie about the small stuff, you're lying about the big stuff. So if they're lying about the reflecting pool, what aren't they telling us about Iran? ⁓ and and so I think Trump, Trump broke his promise to a lot of these folks. And I was in Iowa during the Republican caucuses when ⁓ you know, people thought Nikki Haley was going to do okay. She usually did about 40%, which I thought people should have made a bigger deal out of it because he wasn't de facto the incumbent.
But I was in caucuses and I went to two, three of those caucuses. And the main argument that people stood up and made for him was he won't put us in another forever war. Yeah, you know, so so you can talk about the Epstein file, but this war is so against what people thought he was going to do that, I mean, i
Tim (18:15)
Yeah. I know. Yeah, that is
Yeah, I for day
one I was thinking, I just think it was unbelievably stupid. It was hubristic. I think he thought that the Venezuela thing, I think he was high on his own supply after the Venezuela thing and thought that the that it could be easy like that. ⁓ it is just this ⁓ mass and B B. Yeah, and B B being the situation room. I I just I it was a just this massive mistake and and and it's the kind of mistake if people look back to the first term
heidi (18:38)
I believe BB. Huh? D
Tim (18:50)
Really COVID and COVID is this judgment call. A lot of people blamed China. A lot of people said you nobody could have done anything about this. You know, there's a lot of misinformation. People blamed, you know, de the Democrats, you know, don't like they were getting propaganda. I the increase in prices for like gas and fertilizer and stuff, like unless you're just totally in the cult and are not willing to hear any false information, like you just blame Trump. And I was watching one of these MAGA podcasts the other day where it was
I think Tucker was talking to this guy, Sean Ryan. And and sh you could just tell they're dispirited. And Sean accused the podcast, who's supposed to be the performer. The podcast host is like dispirited. He's why did I sign up for this? Like this was exactly what I did not sign up for. And so you could imagine a lot of those people just not showing up. Like, and those are the people that were new into his coalition this time that voted for him. And then obviously then on top of that, you have the Hispanic voters. I just he's I don't know. The other this like little thing that happened this week that's an example of this idea is
The deal that Blanche struck, which is so dumb in so many ways with with Corny and Tillis to, you know, to to get his confirmation up. it's it's funny. He he's he put in writing, we're gonna stop the fund, the slush fund. He didn't put in writing anything about stopping, you know, the deal where Trump doesn't ever have to be audited for his taxes. And and I I mention this because it's like,
Those same people who didn't think there'd be Forever Wars, who ha cared about Epstein, they also think the January 6th people are Patriots. Like they like we think it's crazy, but they thought the slush fund was good because they wanted pe they they wanted people to get that money. And it's like now Trump is screwing them over. He's like, Yeah, okay. I still get my write-off, but but you guys, nothing for you. We I tried. I tried to get you a little slush fund, but whatever. I you know, I I I anyway, over and over again this is happening.
heidi (20:33)
Ha ha.
Well, I mean, if I were running ads today, I would be running ads on the ⁓ the oil profitability, Exxon and Conico Phillips, they're all reporting their earnings. ⁓ outrageous amounts of money. And Trump went to them and said, Raise a billion dollars for me and I'll be your best friend. Well, okay, you know, guess payoff is happening. ⁓ and that is a direct connection to the
To the pocketbook of American people. And that's why Trump was so quick to say, you better give those profits back to the people. Well, honey, that that, you know, train has left the station. You've created the circumstances that have, you know, basically greatly enriched and created a windfall profit for these companies. And you you earned it. I mean, and so any time that you can take this kind of corruption.
You know, I'll do whatever, I'll I'll bend the rules for you. If you help me scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. Anytime you can connect the dots back to people ⁓ you know, being hurt economically, the average American. And and Trump understands that. I mean, he came out, he knew that those recorded profits were gonna be very problematic for him.
Tim (21:58)
Yeah. Yeah. I and you know, I I thought that like the seeds of this like political decline and his favorability decline, you know, were planted at the inauguration and from day one, right? When he had those big trillionaires now sitting in the first row next to him, right? And you know, it was like Trump
In the first term he had Bannon for all Bannon's flaws, like he had Bannon around and he had some other people around him that were willing to kind of like remind him that like w he was there as this kind of avatar of the regular people, the I forget Bannon had a word I'm forgetting. It was like the mole people or something. It was like a it was a word that was kind of mean but kind of loving about just like people who have been pushed aside by society, like Trump was supposed to be representing them.
Right, or people who feel like they're outside of the cultural elite, you know, which is a lot of the heartland, right? And and instead of like leaning into that, right, and being like the president, the Andrew Jackson who was the, you know, bust that he had up in the first term, he just went full gilded age. Like from day one. Like he won like literally, yeah, he but makes the whole White House gold, and then he wants all the richest people to come suck up to him. And okay, like
heidi (23:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Literally.
Tim (23:22)
Everybody's gonna make a lot of money, no doubt about that. Trump family's gonna make generational wealth and he gets Tim Cook giving him prizes and going to the Melania documentary, but ⁓ the political ramifications of that I think are gonna be
heidi (23:34)
Well, and and you add to that what's happening, especially in rural America with data centers. And I, you know, got in a kind of fight with ⁓ some economic developers and they're like, Well, you know, we need this, blah, blah, blah. And I said, not saying you don't. I'm just saying that you go you go to a community and you say, We're gonna raise your ⁓ water rates because it's gonna use a lot of water, we're gonna raise your electric rates, you're gonna put up with the noise.
gonna put up put put up with the construction challenges. And by the way, you aren't gonna see a dime of that because your stupid local political subdivisions have given away the tax base, you know, and signed NDAs, so you don't know what's going on. And so all the people who are out there right now protesting these, they say, What's in it for me? This is only gonna
gonna exacerbate this wealth disparity with the tech bros. And those tech bros are Donald Trump's best friends. And so I I think another big kind of sleeper issue in this ⁓ election cycle is going to be the data center issue.
Tim (24:34)
Yeah.
I'm interested to hear you say that because I don't like the data center issue one for me is a little bit inscrutable because it's like I don't know. I used to be a Republican. You know, at some level I'm an economic development person, right? Like they're to put a dial center in rural Louisiana. It's like rural Louisiana has no economic activity. It's like isn't that net good for everybody?
But people are everyone is so mad about it across the board. And to me, I I think what's underneath that is what in some of these cases it's like the specific deals that were cut are crazy and don't help people and are totally offensive. And so I understand that in those communities. But like the broad based hatred of them, I think the data centers are like this physical representation of people being like, I hate this. Like I hate that all these rich people, these rich tech oligarchs and businessmen and are making so much money and my life's not getting any better and you're not, you know.
heidi (25:12)
Right.
Tim (25:33)
And so I'm gonna say no to this. Like this is the and and that's kind of what I think. But I don't know, maybe there's something I'm kinda missing about what how the community and
heidi (25:34)
Yeah, no, I I
No, I I mean I I also think that there's a lot of concern about what do we know and what don't we know. How ⁓ I mean, one of the concerns that I have as somebody who ⁓ believes that we need data centers is number one, they approached it wrong to begin with. They approach it like tech bros. They didn't hire local people to go out and actually have a conversation with the people. They didn't run a campaign like you and I would run a campaign if we were let let's say it was an issue campaign for a ballot measure.
I mean, you would we would be out there explaining it, answering, getting surrogates who are trusted to talk about it. The tech bros like, well, everybody's gonna love this because you know, we're really masters of the universe. And, you know, everybody sees this incredible disparity, wealth disparity and income disparity, and they're like, Yeah, all this is gonna do is make you richer. Take away my job because they see it as connected with AI and they aren't they don't.
They they they believe AI is is something that is very harmful to them economically and and and raise our rates, it's gonna cost me, you're gonna make all the money, and then you're gonna take my job. So how is this a good thing for me? And I you know, I'm not a Luddite. I mean, I I I think we need centers. I think we need to have a better discussion about how many of these we need, because my big concern is stranded investment.
Tim (26:56)
Yeah. Right.
heidi (27:09)
that people are going to build infrastructure around these and then we aren't going to need that many. China's already proving that they're way more efficient ⁓ than than our data centers. And so I but but I think ⁓ in in rural America, this is something that ⁓ we have we have one that is going up in my community in Nandan, North Dakota. And I predict that there's going to be hundreds, if not thousands, of people who come out to protest those i in the city meetings. So
Tim (27:12)
They're gonna sit there. It's like this dystopia. Yeah.
Wow.
Mm.
heidi (27:39)
⁓ that that's deep red North Dakota where people are showing up and you see it in Louisiana. But I think it's
Tim (27:44)
What's the vibe like
in North Dakota about Trump right now? Out at the Quiet.
heidi (27:48)
quiet, quiet. ⁓
yeah, so so if Joel were here, I always call him and say, Okay, what did they say about this and what did they say about that? You know, because now the Bergam thing with the with the ⁓ yeah, with the reflecting pond is has gotten a lot of attention in North Dakota because you know, Bergam's doubled down and you know, if you I if you like me, I'm a lawyer, so I read all twenty pages of the Justice Department filing and I thought, I don't think Doug read that.
Tim (28:00)
Reflecting Paul.
Yeah.
heidi (28:17)
Doug should've read that before he doubled down. Anyway,
Tim (28:21)
It's pretty shameful
what he did actually, just to be honest. I like Doug might you know, whatever you think about him, like they tried to put that person they tried to ruin that man's life. That man didn't do anything. They tried to ruin his life, put him in jail for ten years, the government did. And it's pretty pretty gross that he
heidi (28:24)
Well it it because yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I and
and he keeps saying, you know, we've got evidence, we've got evidence. Well, show I mean, where's the receipts? You know, if you got evidence, you better show it. And and it's like, no, they sliced and then they they drain the pool and there is no hashing of the lining. It's it's all shoddy workmanship, and that's basically what that's the cause. I mean, once they saw those memos that were
concurrent with the installation saying, stop, stop, stop, you guys are doing a bad job. You got bubbles, you gotta fix this. They talk about how they couldn't get product and it was raining. I mean, it's it was a cluster to begin with and no big contract. And Doug doubled down. And so but but to to step back and say what are people in North Dakota saying about ⁓ about Donald Trump? They're basically saying nothing. And and I was in
Tim (29:25)
Yeah.
heidi (29:29)
Rural Indiana, you know, all through rural communities. And I I do this and I'm sure you do too. I look for red hats. You know, who's out there who's still flying the flag, ⁓ literally flying the Trump flag? Who's you know, I I live on the Missouri, so I watch the boats, how many Trump flags? You know, even two years ago you saw huge numbers. You don't see those flags. You don't see the red hats. You don't when when something like this happens and
Tim (29:37)
Mm.
heidi (29:58)
Joel goes on the radio, no one calls to defend him. And they'll just say, you've got Trump derangement syndrome, which I think we should turn around and say, all of you people have Trump derangement syndrome because you don't see him for who he is. What is that? What what is that?
Tim (30:16)
It's it's one of these things where I just as a quick aside, the only red hat I've seen recently was an aspen. And I guess that person was probably doing a troll, you know? ⁓ that's all that's left was trying to be a jerk. But so that's where he's been limited to. ⁓ I I I think that, you know, if you ever have if you have you ever had a friend who like got caught up in a scam and or got caught up in a bad relationship even or that and like you try to tell and it's like, what do they do? They get mad at you.
heidi (30:39)
Yeah.
Tim (30:45)
You know? like even if it's maybe your best friend you can do it, but if it's somebody else, you're just like, Hey, this person you're dating seems like they might be, you know, a a bad guy, or might be cheating on you. Like eventu you know, maybe eventually they come around but they get mad at you. And I think that's the deal with the Trump voters. Like they even at at some level if they think it's not going well, hearing it from you or me makes them lash out at us instead of yeah.
heidi (30:54)
But but but
Right. But but
but the other thing is the the the more that the angrier they are, the hotter they are about what you say, the more disturbed they are by Trump's behavior. Yeah. So so I mean, it's like anything else. I I get most offensive when people accuse me of something I think maybe there's a little bit of truth to that deal. Yeah, I I might have I might have not
Tim (31:22)
Right.
Yeah, right. Yeah. It's human nature, yeah, for sure.
heidi (31:36)
done that the way I should have done that. And so you get defensive and put up your dukes. And I and but people aren't putting up their dukes. People aren't willing to engage into fight. They just want to move on. They don't, you know, and and and I think that's the the enthusiasm gap that we're going to see in this midterm elections. But you know, I and and the one thing, okay, let's turn to the Democrats. Mistake that the Democrats are making. They're letting the national media focus on Democratic socialists.
Tim (31:38)
Yeah.
heidi (32:06)
Whoop. I mean, these people are winning in deep blue urban districts. They aren't that the Democrats aren't talking about all the mod the the Rob Sands and the Tarikos and all the moderate people who are actually on the ballot who are going to help define. And and I told someone, someone called me Republican apoplectic, basically saying, ⁓ you know, what about these socialists? And I said, I will tell you.
They're they're replacing Democrats. They are not the majority makers. And so when they come to town, if you're a good leader, you're gonna listen to those people who made your majority and you're gonna try and figure out a way to help them be successful. And so I think that it's really incumbent on the Democrats and certainly the moderate Democrats to not not disturb. I mean
People ask me all the time, Tim, about, aren't you worried about ⁓ the mayor mandami of New York? I said, I don't know what a guy in New York has to do with me. I I I don't live in New York. I you know, I live in North Dakota. Yeah.
Tim (33:12)
Yeah. He th he he seems to be doing all right so far. Murders are down. Yeah, look, I don't
I'm a little bit concerned about the Wisconsin governor's candidate because that's a that's a swing steet state, an important swing state, and ⁓ she she doesn't seem like the strongest possible candidate from the socialist side. So I think there are some legitimate things to be concerned about. It's it's important that the Democrats ⁓ you know, have governorship in those states, especially if there are election issues coming up in in twenty eight. ⁓
But beyond that, I think your instinct is right. And I I think too many Democrats get baited into this fight and are into the getting their eye off the ball right now. And like my big thing right now is to say to my fellow moderates, like when you get asked about this or this gets brought brought up, just say, I don't know why you're not more concerned about mega socialism. Because it seems to me like the actual socialists that are in charge right now is the president. And ⁓
heidi (34:06)
The most
socialistic president we've ever had.
Tim (34:08)
Yeah,
I mean whether it's economics, I mean he is he's he's forcing ⁓ you know, his tariffs were illegal and then he's threatening companies and saying, I will target you if you ask for a rebate on the t stolen tax money I took from you? Like what is that if not national socialism? He's
heidi (34:15)
Yeah.
And you saw
Ludnik just announced a bunch of, you know, taking equity positions in companies that have dealings before the government.
Tim (34:31)
Yeah. So it's on the
economic side. It's also just on like it's sometimes people kind of conflate socialism. Like are you talking about Sweden or are you talking about East Germany? You know, and it's like, well, some of the East German socialism we're seeing too as well, by the way, the masked men in the streets. I don't think any of the DSA socialists are planning on having masked men in the streets going after protesters, going after MAGA churches, shooting people, you know. I don't think any Republicans have to worry about that from the DSA. I don't
I just think that like the state control of the economy that Donald Trump wants combined with his masked agents, like to me that's mega socialism and they're the ones in charge and that's a bigger threat. And, you know, I don't know, in twenty twenty eight and twenty thirty, the Democrats can kinda hash this stuff out on on their side. That's that's sort of my view.
heidi (35:19)
Well, y but
but the there there doesn't seem to be y you and I I think both have given a pretty realistic kind of response to how you should respond to this, right? D have you seen that response from the Democratic Party? Yeah, that'd be the point.
Tim (35:31)
Yeah.
Not really, no. No, I know. I
think a lot of Democrats are very right now invol I like are are very swept up in this internal fight. And that that includes the the socialist side, by the way. I I just like the way that like the D that this I think Abdul El Said will win tonight. I don't know when this publishes, so we'll we'll see if I'm right. But ⁓ the I think that but like the way they talk about Haley Stevens, like you would think that she was a Nazi. you know, I mean like the like the left is so mad at the centrists and
centrists are so mad at the socialists and I just I I think that there a lot of this is is being stoked by Fox and the right and I think a lot of Democrats are playing into it and and I don't think that there's a ton of good messengers right now in the center left, unfortunately. And I wish that there was stronger and and maybe that person will emerge as the presidential stuff starts to heat up in twenty seven. But like right now, part of the reason why they're talking about Mom Dani that much is because Mom Dani's pretty compelling as a messenger.
heidi (36:31)
Yeah.
I it you know, and I said, Well, you know, let's see how he does. Let's see what he does. Let's see how he does it. Let's see the you know, when he went to meet with Trump, that was brilliant on both of their parts, right? To to just kind of say, Look, we're willing to help anyone who's willing to help my city or willing to kind of understand what how we can work together. Now nothing ever came of it, obviously, but but you know, I I I think Tim
Tim (36:57)
Right.
heidi (37:01)
the the the ⁓ failure of the democratic party to effectively message this this ⁓ socialism message this communism message and that the it's it's like everything else they think no one's gonna believe that that won't work and you wanna say you know these they're not idiots they they're in charge I mean they won elections so why aren't you paying attention to what they think is gonna
Tim (37:19)
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
heidi (37:31)
gonna turn the tide. ⁓ and and so I I think I think that the Democrats need to
Tim (37:36)
I agree with that. And I don't know. I
and some of this is I'm not sure if Fox isn't having people on or what, but I I don't I think the de like there's so many opportunities right now. All the stuff we talked about for the first half hour of all the things that way this is that he's betraying his own voters. I think there's so many opportunities to go into red media spaces if you're a Democrat and make a really clear headed case against the war, against the
the MAGA socialism. Like there are a lot of opportunities, I think. And so I'd like to see more of that.
heidi (38:07)
Well, I mean, Fox th what they have a reliable three million viewer, same people every day. The same with other kinds of media outlets. That's why people like you are doing well. I mean, you know, because people are saying, look, I don't wanna sit there and hear all of the yak yak back and forth, you know, he said, she said, I want people number one
Tim (38:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
heidi (38:32)
to to analyze what's going on and tell me what I need to know. And I think you can do that even, yeah. Well, but but but but you can do that from a perspective of opinion, right? I mean, you know, your analysis comes from years of experience in ⁓ Republican political campaigns and understanding, you know, how voters respond. And so to me,
Tim (38:39)
Yeah. And what they really think. Not be asked me.
Yeah. Yeah.
heidi (39:01)
⁓ once again, the Democrats are flat footed. And if I have one concern about the midterms, is they aren't taking this. It it's like ⁓ Kamala not responding to the transgender ads. You know, get out there. Get out there and do exactly what you did. Point out that, you know, say, what do you think socialism is? Let me explain what this is. ⁓ and and you know, how my dad, my dad used to have an expression, Tim.
Tim (39:12)
Yeah.
heidi (39:27)
It when we would come home and complain about somebody at school or complain about somebody at church, he'd say, How's that person hurting you? You know, how's Mondami hurting me? He's not. I mean, I you know he you know, there might be some people in New York who are apoplectic, but from what I've been seeing, he's been he'd been pretty engaged. Yeah.
Tim (39:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. New York seems pretty good. Nick's one.
Murders are down. He kept the same cop. I don't know. ⁓ so we'll see how it how it shakes out.
heidi (39:56)
Yeah. Anyway.
Well, Tim, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. It's always fun to talk to you. ⁓ Yeah.
Tim (40:03)
Good luck to North Dakota in that little league world series. ⁓
I'm pulling for Now I've something to pull f now now I have a r rooting interest, so we'll check it out.
heidi (40:11)
Yeah, well i
i ⁓ it depending upon how late you stay up, EXPN, ⁓ on Wednesday night at I think it's still the eight o'clock or the nine o'clock central, ⁓ will be will be the Fargo team taking on California. You know, kind of a little scrappy North Dakota taking on California. Yeah, well well we like to re
Tim (40:31)
Yeah. David averse Goliath. All right. Well I'll be rooting for him with my b with my beans.
heidi (40:37)
We like to remind people, Tim, that Fargo is the home of Roger Barris. So Yeah. Did you know that? Yeah, now you do. He played junior legion. He played Legion ball in North Dakota. Some city in Minnesota tried to take credit. He was probably born there for a second and basically went to high school in ha in Fargo.
Tim (40:42)
there you go. Sixty one homers. I did not know that.
Always stealing stealing
valor over there, Minnesota. thank you, Heidi. It's always a pleasure.
heidi (41:01)
Anyways, say the kid yeah,
most hug your family for me. Yeah, you know, I most people know that ⁓ your husband is a is a treasured former staffer of mine. ⁓ been watching the farm bill and so I'm sure he keeps you apprised of all the ins and outs.
Tim (41:05)
I will.
He does. He says that
all of his the other Heidi staffers that listen to the podcast, whenever I bring up an ag fact, they always text him. They're like, You've been giving you gave that one about the fertilizer, didn't ya? So anyway. I appreciate you girl. We'll get you back on the pod soon, all right?
heidi (41:30)
Well y ⁓
thanks so much and you take care.
Tim (41:36)
All right. We'll see
heidi (41:40)
so much for joining me today on the hot dish, brought to you by onecountryproject.org. You can learn more about our organization ⁓ and ⁓ hopefully some of the issues that we think are going to be critical in the midterms. Follow us on Substack, follow us on YouTube, Facebook, and of course Blue Sky.
gonna take a little break ⁓ to ⁓ kind of finish out the summer. And so we will let you know when we're back in ⁓ podcast work. And in the meantime, remember stay active.
Stay engaged and believe that ⁓ everyday people can make a huge difference if we ⁓ get informed and we work together. So thanks so much for ⁓ your attention and ⁓ we'll see you in the near future.