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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
102 Lencioni Ideal Final
[00:00:00] Hello, welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode one Oh two, and I might pass since I'm your cohost. And I tell you what, not only am I joined by a cohost I'm joined. By an ideal team player, the man himself. Good morning, Mark. Good morning, Mike. Very kind. I can't say I won't take the title quite yet. I think this episode, I'm going to get a lot of advice and tips and lessons and guidance.
So maybe as a goal, I will work towards being that ideal team player. But I do wonder whether as we dig into the lessons today, how many I can, I can call my own. I'm I'm excited that that will indeed be the test Mark and for all of our listeners get ready because we [00:01:00] are in the second part of our four-part teamwork series.
And boy, did we kick off with the King of teamwork himself? Patrick Lensioni. And you'll notice that I have to say it with a bit of hand, just to culation as if I'd come from, um, Naples or some wonderful. Tuscan Villa, but actually, um, where I am coming from is somebody who dearly enjoys working on a team.
I love the vibe of good teamwork. I love the feeling of being in it together to build something great. And that previous episode, episode one Oh one, we really looked at the dysfunctions of a team. And today. We stay with Patrick Lencioni. And where do we go this time, Mark? Well, this week we're going to be taking it one step further.
So moving on from those five dysfunctions of a team and those pitfalls that teams can fall [00:02:00] into as they seek to grow together this week. With digging into the ideal team player, how to recognize and cultivate what Patrick calls his three essential virtues, virtues of character, as well as behavior that often can destroy teamwork if you don't get it right.
Yeah. It's it's, it's like the perfect it's the perfect partner for. He's five dysfunctions of a team. Uh, what he does is he casts the, the looking glass. He cast the magnifying glass onto us and really challenges us with how we should be hazed. And then what's so curious about how we behave in a team.
It's, it's often the behaviors that UI that adore about your teammates or it's the behaviors that drive you nuts. Um, and what's so cool about the show that we've got coming up is. Patrick has outlined, um, you know, the three virtues that we should have. And he [00:03:00] also has gone as far to say, here are the three archetypes that you should avoid being yourself.
So I say my, this is a bit of an accountability show, don't you? Yeah, it's a little bit of an, it's a good mirror, you know, we bought into, okay, well, how did teams not collaborate together? And we've, we've gone under the microscope. We're going to look at ourselves. We're going to think about the way that we interact with teams.
And remember, as Patrick called out in the five dysfunctions of a team, a team is every way, it's your career? It's your family. It's your sports game or, or you're on the Patriot court, whatever it might be. So what was his thing, Mark? His life, his life is a team sport. Was that it is a team sport. Exactly.
There's such a everywhere and that's great. Isn't it? And it's a reminder because like you might, I love working in a team, you know, sometimes, especially in this new way of working, you can get a [00:04:00] little bit, um, there's an element of loneliness, I guess, but actually I'm going to focus more on you're in your own bubble.
And sometimes that allows ideas to stagnate or maybe an opinion, perhaps is a negative one. Maybe you've received a bit of negative feedback. You can ruminate on it. And without having a team around you to discuss it or to action, it, it can be quite suffocating. So, yeah. Going from. How to keep teams alive as a team sport in the previous episode to now thinking about, okay, well, what are the frameworks and tools that I can follow in order to be my best team player for others around me?
I mean, Patrick's really giving us the building blocks for life. Isn't it? He, he is indeed. And, uh, the reason that we picked this entire teamwork series is teamwork. Just got a little harder with everyone being on zoom calls and. [00:05:00] This idea of quarantining and, um, trying to do everything without all of that great body language in chats at the watercolor.
So I think this is the perfect moment, not only in 2020, but I think there's never been a better time to dig it into the world of teamwork. And in particular, this show we'll be digging into the book of the ideal team player by Patrick Lane, Siani and Mark. I think we should just kick it off. Where shall we begin?
Let's begin by hearing from a very, very likable and pleasant Patrick Lencioni telling us about the foundation of his book, the ideal team player. Well, this book called the ideal team player came about by accident. And I want to tell you about it because we didn't sit around one day and think we should write a book about teamwork and have three words.
Years ago, I wrote a book called the five dysfunctions of a team. And that was 18 years ago. Well, thank you for [00:06:00] clapping. That was very nice to me. This gentleman right here has started the clapping. He was the crazy naked guy dancing, you know, in the video, there are people chimed in. Thank you. But anyway, so I wrote that book and right after it came out, people would say, well, Pat are, are some people better at doing this stuff than others?
And I remember we were just busy and I was like, no, I think everybody can be a team player. Very few people just can't do it. But I didn't realize there was actually an answer to that question. Until years. And I had to think about something that happened before we even started the table group, our company.
So years ago, when I worked at a software company, I had my own department there. And, and that was when the book by Jim Collins and Jerry porous came out. God bless you called built to last. It's a great book. And in built to last, they talked about core values that great companies have core values. So we went out to get some of them, our own ourselves.
So we went and went to a conference room at a hotel and got a. A white board and a thesaurus and came up with some words to [00:07:00] mean to stand for our values. We you've all been to these meetings, right? Unfortunately, many companies come up with like 12 words that encompass everything. And that doesn't really work because nobody has all 12, but we were fortunate that we came up with these three words, a, B, and C.
And so we said, we're going to build our department around that. Then a few years later, that department and I, we went and started our own firm, the table group, what we do now. Which is largely focused on helping organizations build better teams and more healthy organizations. And we took those three values with us.
We said, we're going to build our company around that. And so we started our company and we started working with these leadership teams and in addition to helping them with teamwork and strategy and tactics, we'd help them with their values. And we'd say so. So let's talk about what your company values will be.
And they would say, oftentimes, what are your values, Pat? I said, well, we don't really know. Broadcast them. It's really personal, you know, they say, but what are yours? And we'd say, well, here, there are a, B and C and they'd say, yeah, we like those that we're gonna use. That was two. And we'd say, no, you can't use those.
You have to come up with your own values. [00:08:00] We thought they were being lazy. Honestly. I thought, man, they just want to knock that on off the list. It wasn't that at all, there was something universally appealing about those values that I was just too slow to recognize until years later that we realized those were the three attributes.
But if a person had all three, that makes them an ideal team player, and that I should have known that because our whole firm was about teamwork, but we just didn't realize that. And so finally we did. And so we just told people about it. And, uh, a friend of mine said, you know, something, you need to write a book about that.
And I was like, I don't think that's a book. I mean, they're just three things and they're really simple. He goes, no, that's a book. So I start writing a book. We find that we're going to publish that book. And then I thought. Maybe this is going to be the first book I write. That's really bad. I mean, I'm, I'm not saying all my books are great, but I thought maybe this is the one that's going to really suck because it's so simple.
So we put it out there and that's pretty much how it always is. When you put out a new book and it's sold faster and people started using it faster than any book we'd ever written. And I think it's because it's [00:09:00] so simple and because they can get their hands around it and use it. And we're going to talk about how to do that today.
And so this is the. This is the ideal team player. We're going to talk about the three virtues that's enough setup. Let's dive into it. No, very what a curious situation might that they're advising people on how to build, you know, behaviors and values and they all say, Hey, well, what ones do you use? Like for some inspiration, they're like, Oh, we like those.
And that, that became the cornerstone of the book that became. The three virtues we're going to talk about in a moment. Isn't that sort of a ridiculous process. Like it tells you creativity can just come from anyway. Sometimes creativity comes from what's right in front of you, you know, as Patrick says that he had to double-take and say, Oh, it's not really a book.
That's so obvious. But sometimes everybody, whether it's a brand or a product, perhaps we'll look for something [00:10:00] that's maybe. Complicated for the sake of being complicated. If you focus on the root core attributes and values that are really valuable. You know, those are the ones that actually will make a difference to people and the business sector.
And so on. Those are the ones that are going to have a much bigger return. And sometimes they're super simple. Well, they are. And then often, often, you know, the simplicity is what makes them so damn hard to do and to live, you know? So, so here's the interesting thing though. Um, one note that I wanted to make about what Patrick just said is that when you want to start a company, Build a team start a sports team.
It doesn't matter. It has to start with the values. This is exactly what, uh, HP did. They had the HP way. What you will see is that people. Need to come together around how they're going to treat each other, how [00:11:00] they're going to work together. And this is far more important than the idea itself, because the idea will be a starting point.
It will grow, it will change. The bigger picture will emerge over time, but you can only get there. Um, if you have the right teamwork and if individuals. Display the right virtues and work hard to be better as human beings, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this, this, uh, book, the ideal team player is a little bit like the five dysfunctions of a team.
You know, we were talking about that being the real DNA and you break it down into how a teamwork can be structured. Sorry, a team can be structured in this way. And in this book, he's cracking the code on what values define that ultimate team player. So just by starting with why, but starting with the values and the virtues you building on strong foundation and absolutely hums as we're going to talk about today [00:12:00] and ingrained behavior.
And that's, that's the real value there. So, uh, we've got three virtues that we're going to start with, and then we're going to have the three archetypes that you want to seriously avoid. So if you are sitting there listening to us and you have to work. With other people in your career, in your household with your partner, with your friends, what we're about to get into is a clickable to all of the above.
So let's jump into an absolute adventure into teamwork and how we can be ideal team players. And let's start with the first one, which is all about being humble in my book, the ideal team player, I explore these three simple virtues, but the power of those virtues is in. The commonality of them all. We have to have all three.
If you play baseball and you're one for three hitter, that's pretty good. It's terrible in teamwork. If you're two for three, as a quarterback in [00:13:00] passing, that's pretty good. You gotta be three for three when it comes to teamwork. So let's talk about these three virtues. Let me introduce you to them and then talk about how we can identify and improve ourselves if we're lacking any.
So the first virtue of ideal team player is by far the most important. And it is humility. If you want to be an ideal team player, and if you want to be successful in life, you really need to be humbled more than ever now business, the most important, because as a follower of Jesus, the Bible says that the root of all sin is pride.
And I believe that you look at all the problems we have. It's usually rooted in pride. Well, the antidote to pride is humility. So it stands to reason that this would be the most important. And most of us know what humility is, right? It's not being ego centered or arrogant or self-centered, but being about others, putting others ahead of ourselves, it's such an attractive and powerful thing, but there's another side of humility.
We have to understand too, it's in the minority, but it's still important to understand. See some people will look at another [00:14:00] person and say, She never talks about herself. She never demands that we listened to her. She never thinks she's has the right answer. She's really humble. And when somebody lacks confidence, it's actually not humility.
You see, when we have an idea or a talent to deny our God-given talent is actually a violation of humility, just like it is to exaggerate them. CS Lewis said it best. He said humility. Isn't thinking less of ourselves. It's thinking about ourselves less. But the most prominent kind of lack of humility we see in teams in the workforce and in life is arrogance and ego centeredness.
Oh, straight into the most important. That one was pretty fierce. Yeah. And look again, it's just to remind us of what Patrick was saying in the first clip that we heard today. They aren't things that you'll sit back in your chair. And think, Oh, wow. I [00:15:00] never thought about it like this. You know, this is a prime example of something that seems so simple yet.
We all have a tendency to perhaps forget day-to-day pride is a problem. If it is impacting those around you and impacting the work you don't want to. And there's many, many types of pride, but let's use one as an example, Mike, if you're not willing to see perhaps your own. You know, maybe save the ball on something and your pride doesn't want to admit it.
Then what happens is it has a knock on effect for those around you. And what you ending up doing is going against what Patrick was just saying, that he was telling us to put others ahead of yourself and avoid arrogance. And by keeping something maybe internalized or hiding the truth, or keeping pride at the top of your hierarchy, as opposed to thinking about everybody or those around you.
All you're doing is either slowing things down or actually being a detrimental [00:16:00] effect on the rest of those around you, right? Yeah, absolutely. You know, what it makes me think about is what would be sort of a good, uh, couple of, um, uh, behaviors you and I could identify as being. You know, some things that people do when they are a humble person.
So I'm going to throw a few at you and let's see if we can together. We can kind of kind of build, um, sort of a good picture here. I'm going to say an ideal team player that is humble, does a couple of things. And I think the first one is, is very. Very quick to say, whoops, I really stuffed that up. That's on me.
I, I would agree. And that takes a lot of courage. It does. There's been [00:17:00] times for me when I would avoid that, because you don't want to get in trouble. You don't want somebody to feel like you've let them down. So. You know, your natural instinct is out. I'll just, I'll brush it under the carpet. But what Patrick's reminding us here is, Hey, being disciplined with yourself, what else can you Mark, when you think about like, what do you want to see in somebody who's going to be humble?
What do you think that it looks like? I, you know what I think humble is because as Patrick's calling out, it's such an important. Aspects and virtue you're part of the team. I think, uh, hum. Uh, humil who will come speak and demonstration of humility is to say no, no, it wasn't just me. It was the team. We all had an effect here.
And that's something that is so easy to say on our conference call or in a board meeting [00:18:00] to really mean it and to think, yes, I acknowledge that you beside me have made a serious effort. In the success of this product or this meeting that humility has a knock on effect. It's like smiling at somebody in the street, you know, uh, I think the phrase is paying it forward.
If you're humble and you're acknowledging other people's work. And then it has a fantastic knock on effect and it encourages that behavior from your team. A colleague as well for them to go and spread to the rest of theirs. So you see it sort of has, and this is, I think why Patrick calls it out as his most important one, because once you start with that humble approach and you're willing to share acknowledgement or praise or credit with the rest of those around you, suddenly you have the capability to build up on top of that.
Yeah. So I think so what's our little playbook. If we all want to try and be a little bit more humble, admit to [00:19:00] our mistakes, be quick to praise the others. And, um, look, I think. Um, sometimes, uh, you know, taking on work that you might feel as beneath you is really good for the team. So I remember when I first started rugby coaching and I'm with all these guys that, you know, have a life of rugby coaching.
So there am I'm, I'm like. 43 year old CEO of a company. And at practice, I'd go fill the water bottles. And I was just like, all right, okay. This is what it takes to learn how to be a great rugby coach then. So be it. But that's a great demonstrate that, sorry, it's one step. I was going to say it's a great demonstration, but really what I mean is it's a great behavior.
To show the rest of the team and the players, because might you doing that behavior suddenly the ha a [00:20:00] hierarchy or an expectation of owner he's the coach. So therefore he's not on our level. Suddenly it flattens that, um, system and everybody will feel more relaxed and, and maybe play better. Or at least they'll feel a little bit more inclusive in that.
No, and you can, and you can see how the, the act of humility. Um, create safety for others to admit their faults for others, to chip in and help out each other or yourself. So you can really see how it's like a snowball effect. It really starts things going, but these three virtues they're a package deal.
He said, you need to get all three done. So what's number. Well, I think building on this idea of humility, it's now all about, uh, you know, Making sure that you really, really are humble with the way that you behave with those around you, but you're also working hard at everything that you do around you [00:21:00] that therefore puts the team and those goals of the team above your own.
So the second virtue that we're going to hear is about being hungry. You have to be hungry. People who have an innate hunger about getting work done are much more successful on teams and in life. And this is simply just having a strong work ethic. And this is probably the easiest one to understand, but I'll say this to the young people out there.
This is the one that you probably have to develop earliest in life. When I work with people later in life who never developed an innate sense of hunger, it's harder. And so I talked to kids in middle school and I say, do it now. Work hard at everything you do. This is not about workaholism though.
Workaholics are people who get their entire identity from their work. And that's not what I'm saying here. People who are hungry just have, want to go above and beyond have a high standard for what they do and never do the minimum. They never do just the minimum. Never do just the minimum. I think there's a certain [00:22:00] generosity of always going above and beyond don't you and always be willing to put in the work.
Um, and you know, the funny thing is what I have to remind myself of my, is that when I've put in the work. I always feel so, so much more satisfied than if I haven't like I'm so attuned to this. Like if I've kind of few corners, then I kind of know. You know, the thing that I made, I kind of cut some corners, maybe nobody notices, but I know.
So this being hungry, man, what's what's on your being hungry checklist. Mark. How do you, how do you keep it hungry? Yeah. A physical element to it, as well as a mindset, which I think you were, um, which I'll build on yours in a second. I think the hungry. A bit on surface value is, Oh, I'm going to go out and work as hard as I can.
I'm going to go and do [00:23:00] whatever I need to go and get this project done. I'm going to work harder than I'm expected to, and I feel ownership over it. It's, I'm part of the jigsaw puzzle. If I don't turn up and do my work, then I'm just never going to be complete. But building on exactly what you've just said, I think there's also this element of honesty.
It comes through. So this hunger of being honest and putting yourself into it, I think if you are keeping something or you're trying to cover up something, uh, what ends up happening is your you're sort of distracted by it and it won't, you won't ever be able to achieve your ultimate, um, behavior. And.
Excellent delivering by constantly thinking, Oh, I wonder if I'm going to get caught out here because ultimately you normally do so hunger. I think you sort of need to be hungry, to be honest, as well as hungry [00:24:00] to go and work as hard as you can, don't you? Yeah, I do. And I think the, the, the way we can sort of break it down as if you're hungry, um, I'm going to use a sports analogy.
You know, if you look at a team sport like soccer or rugby, um, there's this key idea that like, no matter how good you are individually, for example, there's been many superstar sporting teams. That has been stacked with a players, but that didn't win championships, right? You with me? Well, the English football team.
Yeah. So, so, so stick with me here, Mark, because I want to try and see if I can crack this metaphor for, for keeping it hungry. Now, what I think. He's you, you know, there was the famous, real Madrid team that had Beckam and renown had everyone in it and they still couldn't really get it done, even though it was stacked with [00:25:00] pirates.
And I think, uh, it works like this. If everybody is only doing their job. For example, the soccer player makes a great pass to another player and says, Oh, that's my job done. But doesn't run over to create space for the next play or the play after, or doesn't go over to cover somebody who looks like they're in a really tough situation.
So there's no backup. What happens is when in a team sport, when nobody is backing up. Once the opposition make a break your toast, but think about all those great plays. You know, LeBron James is famous for this. He's just gone and got some points. The other team are transitioning back to the other side of the court.
A player thinks he's in space. And then from behind LeBron makes one of these massive jumps and knocks the ball away just [00:26:00] as the player was shooting. Always going beyond your job. And getting back to defend to back up is such a powerful metaphor. This is what hungry players do. They're hungry, not only for their success, but for the team's success.
So how many times have we seen in sport that like a guy who was just moments ago at one end of the field, Makes it back to make a try saving tackle or a slide to stop the soccer ball going into the net, even though just a second ago, they were up almost scoring, but they F they were so hungry that they darted back to the other end of the field, because, and here's the key thing.
They are not only playing for their personal success. But they will do whatever it takes for the team success. And they don't sit there saying, well, where the hell is the defender? I'm the attacker. Why on earth do I have to get back? I'm [00:27:00] so fantastic. I score points. I'm Mike, I'm the star of the team? No, not only because they're hungry, but because they're humble.
They put in the work and they get back to support their teammates to back them up. And I think I'm going to finish this metaphor with work. The great example of this in the office is when you've been asked to do something and you do it, and somebody proactively checks it and says to you, Hey Mark, good job.
I found two typos that I fixed for you. That is hungry because it was your deliverable, not theirs, but because of their commitment to the team success, they proactively chose to fix it and they didn't make a big deal. They didn't say Mark in this big Randy email there's mistakes. No, they just get in there and.
Make the changes because they care about the outcome. They care about the team success and they're [00:28:00] leaning in. And I think it's very easy for people to lean out and just say, I did my thing, right? That's not hungry. Is it not hungry? And you're lacking that sense of, of personal responsibility. You know what we've found in the humble aspect you want to go in, you want to maybe admit to mistakes.
You want to share credit as well as acknowledge those around you. When you're being really, really hungry, you're feeling that sense of responsibility for the rest of the team. And you've got your eye on the backs of those around you, helping them exceed as much as you're trying to. Help yourself succeed.
And rather than having that arrogance of as, as Patrick was calling out, instead of having that, that arrogance or pride thinking, Oh, the other teams scored, well, I'm not the goalie, so it's not my fault. Instead it's owning the fact that you're part [00:29:00] of the team and you want everybody to be excelling as much as possible.
Because again, going back to the very first clip we heard start with your virtues, start with the values, start with the mission. Of that team. And as long as everybody's on the same wavelength and everybody really believes in that foundation, You can go out and play that great game. Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely. So we've got the humble Mark. We've got the hungry. Um, but unfortunately the third virtue, it doesn't start with the letter. H does it? No, this one's a different one and we'll come on to, uh, the, the score, the H H S later on in the show. But the third virtue that Patrick wants to break down for us is all about how you're thinking about things around you.
You're studying elements. And ultimately you are being smart. Now the third attribute of an ideal team player is what I call being smart, but it's not about intellectual smarts. This is about [00:30:00] emotional intelligence, common sense around how we understand people and how we use our words and actions to bring out the best possible impact in others.
This is so important in the world and it is, you can develop this in life. Being smart is one of those things that people can work on and get better at. So humble, hungry, smart. These are the three simple virtues, but the key is that we have to have all three to be an ideal team player. So it's really important that we learn how to identify in ourselves and others when one is lacking, you know, it's so funny because when you see humble and hungry and then you see smart, it's sort of.
It's a little odd in the system, you know, there's humility, it's very emotional, hungry, like, you know, work ethic and then smart it's quite striking. But did you notice that pivot? He does there. He's talking about emotional intelligence. [00:31:00] He's talking about being in tune, not only with how you feel. But with others kind of neat.
Right? Kind of neat. And it's again, so easy to forget that when you send an angry or you have an angry call or a frustrated email or text or Slack or whatever everybody is using their, you, it's very one way. You're not. Seeing the body language as though you and I were sitting up to the team, you can't see how they're receiving it.
So being emotionally smart and caring, I think that's a big word here, caring about others, reading them well and adjusting your behavior, or maybe your style in order to kind of cultivate them and, and, and work as much as you can to. The nature of those around you is so, so valuable because everything we do has an impact, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about caring for, for the people [00:32:00] that are around you, um, in your project, in your community organization, in your sport, family, whatever, whatever. I think I want to go a little deeper on this one, because I think this one's quite challenging and. I want to try pitching you Mark a few behaviors that we can all work on.
And one of the ones, like, I think if you want to be emotionally tuned in, I think actively listening. To the people that you work with. And I think a great practices. Everybody gets a chance to speak in a meeting. And it reminds me of this interesting role that the founders of Google have. If you don't contribute in the meeting, you shouldn't be there.
And that's kind of their way of saying if you're not going to have a voice or if the team is not going to. Give you the capacity to tote you shouldn't actually be there. It's not the right team for you. So I think a great practice [00:33:00] is just to check off. If you can be, be the last to speak and truly listen to understand those around you.
And I think you can be emotionally smart. What do you think? Yeah, the active listening, that's a really, really big one here. I think the five dysfunctions of a team was around collaboration and the magic word communication. And. You know, when you're thinking about how you are feeling to others, this idea of communication is, is ultimately what you're going to have to go and do.
And by demonstrating that you do care about that other person speaking and importantly what they have to say, you're going to cultivate a better environment for ideas to flourish and conflicts to be normalized. And creating the platforms for people to provide feedback as well as work better together, if you are [00:34:00] promoting the active listening.
And I, I like, I like the example you've just used about everybody in the meeting, having something to say, I think there is, everybody's got the opportunity to, rather than having some big, um, Uh, what's the word, uh, bag hot, hot air somebody's hot air and owning the meeting. That can be intimidating. So by creating, by being smart and being aware of those who are in the meeting and therefore calling on each individual and giving them the opportunity to say something so valuable, it is.
And I think if you're listening, when you do choose to speak, you're choosing your words carefully, your. Really thinking through what is the understanding. I want to reach with the person across the table. So rather than just shooting off the hip and maybe being a little reactive, you can just be more thoughtful, more intentional, more emotionally [00:35:00] smart.
Three big ones, humble, hungry, smart. Um, it feels like we painted the, the ideal picture of the ultimate a team play. I haven't, we, yeah, like this, I love this framework. It's so logistical and, and, and it's such an easy, well, I say easy. It's such a. Simple, perhaps his word framework that you kind of do just want to print it out and make it your daily mantra.
Be humble. Be hungry, be smart, right? Yeah. That's a great point. I might, I might sneak this one into my little mantra list that I, that I keep handy over here. Here we go. Humble. Hungry. Smart. Oh, I like it. I like it. Markets. It's so good to get into this. It's such a, it is a bit confronting, isn't it? You know, to, you know, think about it, admit to your mistakes, [00:36:00] um, to go and support others by sometimes doing things you might feel are not your job and just really listening to understand.
I mean, You know, it's so easy to get caught up in your own brain, right? So easy to get caught up and go out with the best intentions, but actually not behave in that way. And this is something that I think Patrick's really, really calling us out on both in both of his books. And we can we'll dig into, uh, some of those, uh, potential archetypes.
Yeah, we will, we will, but, but talk about calling some people out, Mark. Uh, we, we we've been inviting folks to go to moonshots.io and to tell us who they want us to study in future shows. And I want to thank all the people that, uh, giving, uh, that feedback, but, uh, That apart from that call to action, we've had a [00:37:00] couple of folks reach out to us.
So, Mike, do you want to, uh, do a couple of shout outs for us? I want to do a quick shout out to Lenny Hemmings who got in touch with us via hello@moonshots.io. Thank you so much, Lenny for listening and your kind words. We give you ultimate welcome and respect to yourself and your work in community as well.
Thank you, Lenny, for getting in touch. And we'd also like to give a shout out to Fergal Fargo. Thanks very much. We're so glad that you've started this exciting adventure going down your MBA. And we're really pleased that listening to some of our shows has inspired you and allowed you to appreciate his work.
So keep up the great work and please listeners. Don't hesitate to get in touch with us either by one of our social channels or moonshots.io. Now what's really interesting. Mark is our listeners do have the chance to influence who we study on the show, right? Like we [00:38:00] literally have taken a number of suggestions.
Um, the Adam Grant, uh, series was a suggestion. Uh, we've got Christian, Christine legato. Uh, who's on our to-do list. Uh, thanks to, to one of our listeners. Um, and yeah, it's really important that you understand, as a listener, you can guide us, show us the way on, on who we might do next. And Mark boy, do we have some cracking people in the upcoming shows?
Do you want to like give a little tease? You want to give it a little taste of future shows? There's a, there's a little bit of a tease and then I'll let you know listeners how you can. Help, uh, uh, influence us down the line. We're going to get into Kyle Maynard very soon. We're going to get into a timeless classic series with Dale Carnegie and Stephen Covey.
Covey was one of our recommendations from you. Our listeners, we can't wait to get into him. We've got an absolute stinker of a little growing background. I just can't. [00:39:00] Um, I can't. I'm so excited for 2021. Mike, we've got such an influential group of entrepreneurs building. Yeah, it's, it's going to be great.
So it doesn't really matter where you are in the world and we want to send out, you know, our big thanks and gratitude to our listeners that are all over the world. I think it's, uh, I really want to thank all the New Zealand folks that have been listening to the show. Um, we have, um, really like a huge amount of listeners coming in and, uh, from New Zealand, in fact, We, uh, we've ended up 20th in the business, the top business and entrepreneurship podcasts in New Zealand.
So respect to our friends across the pond, across the Tasman. Uh, so great to hear, uh, to hear that you guys are tuning in and I invite all of you guys to, um, To make your suggestions on who we might cover in future shows, but actually Mark, [00:40:00] how, how do folks do that? Where do they go? If you all navigate to moonshots.io, we have a new feature on the website over the last couple of weeks.
We've already been receiving ideas and suggestions via this technique. It's a feedback button in the top right-hand side of our website. You can just pop along. Leave us your thoughts, a couple of questions, your feedback, as well as your suggestions on potential entrepreneurs and innovators for us to cover in the future.
We just love hearing from your listeners. So please don't hesitate to pop along to moonshots.io. Click on that little feedback button. Let us know what's on your mind. Fantastic. I think it's about time that we get into these archetypes of the not so ideal team player and that there's some crazy names.
We've got the, the, the lovable slacker, the skillful politician, but Mark, where should we. Uh, stop this rip roaring [00:41:00] fast-track through the archetypes that Patrick Lensioni is giving us a very strong advice of what not to be exactly. If you thought that those three virtues of humble, hungry and smart were valuable.
Well, listen up, this is a real time to turn the mirror around and make sure question ourselves whether we fit into any of these archetypes that Patrick's going to tell us about. And the first one is all about how to avoid being an accidental mess maker. So, what I'm going to do now is come up with some labels, which I want you to use carefully for people that lack one of these in a very serious egregious way.
So let's take a look at those. Now, a person who is humble, the most important one, they think about others have had of themselves. And they're hungry. They work really hard, but they lack smarts. They're not emotionally intelligent. We call this the accidental mess maker. Now the act. I have a lot of time for accidental mess makers.
They're good people. They have really good intentions, but they kind of create problems that they're not aware of. They're like [00:42:00] that dog, that puppy, I have a puppy at home and they knock things over a lot, but they mean, well, and they poop on the carpet and you have to clean up after them. But because they mean, well, you can whack them on the nose with a newspaper and they come back for more.
They have a great attitude. The problem with accidental mess makers is just, you do have to clean up with them. They create a little bit extra work and over time you kind of get tired of having to say, he's a really good guy. He didn't mean it that way. Nonetheless, of the three types of lack, one of these virtues, I will take the accidental mess maker.
It's so funny, like the, the, as he paints these pictures and uses metaphors of family pets, it's hilarious. Um, to think that we really do see these people in our lives. And, you know, I think what he's saying is on one hand, don't be an accidental mess maker, but I think it's also a genuine opportunity to support, help, encourage and inspire those folks.
Mm. To grow because [00:43:00] I think the formula he's using here is that the accidental mess maker they're humble and they're hungry, but I don't think they're people smart. Yeah. They don't have that emotional intelligence. What do you, what do you think? Yeah, I think if, if Patrick in this case is the one who is tidying up after themselves.
And, you know, learning about, uh, how to, uh, to deal with them. It's kind of like, you've gotta be aware of it by being that team player, you, you've gotta be aware of the mess that you might be making. Right. And at the same time, if you're in Patrick shoes in the story, then you've got to as exactly to build on your point.
Mike, you've got to be able to identify those who perhaps are accidents, mess makers. And show them, Hey, why don't you be, uh, a little bit more late. This, let me help you become aware of [00:44:00] those around you and therefore over time, gradually maybe reduce that, uh, destruction that they might be living by. Yeah, because I think what we're saying is that these people, you know, They're happy for the team to win.
They're putting in the effort, but they're just not aware of how their interactions are, you know, potentially upsetting or alienating. Um, and so I think it's a chance to say, I like the tests for me here. Mark is. Okay. So let's say someone's an accidental mess maker. What advice, uh, or what thing could you do to make them aware?
And what comes to my mind is the practice of here. I need to show you when you say this thing, when you say it in this way to this person, I need you to understand that this is the hidden meaning, the perception [00:45:00] of which that message has been perceived, interpreted. And I think if you can take the time to help them develop their interpersonal skills and help them tell their story better.
I think this can lead to some real breakthroughs, but they often, they often have no idea how their words are perceived. Right. Yeah. So if you take them on the journey and try to help them see the other side of the conversation or the argument and say, Hey, you said this, this is how they, your colleague perceived it stand that this was upsetting to them, or perhaps created extra work for them to deal with you are taking them on, you know, quite a, quite a functional, but also educational.
Or inspiring, um, journey that they can then learn from and hopefully put into action the next time. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think that's how [00:46:00] we help the accidental mess maker. And it's also a little bit of a warning unto ourselves to like work on those interpersonal skills, make sure your message is, is landing.
Right. But, uh, someone on the other side who has a different, uh, situation, a very different archetype is the lovable slacker. And so let's go now and find out what happens when someone is missing. The hungry when they're just humble and people smart. So let's take a dive into the world of the lovable slacker.
The second one is also a very good time kind. That's somebody who's humble, the most important one. And they're smart. They're good at dealing with people, but they lack hunger. We call this kind the lovable slacker now lovable slackers. The problem is their level. So they're really fun to be around. And they're good people.
They're nice people, but they just do the bare minimum. They don't go above and beyond and you have to constantly remind them to do more. [00:47:00] And, and you have to kind of pick up their Slack in an organization. Now I once worked with a lovable slacker, a good friend of mine still is. And every time I reminded him that he needed to do more, he would say, you're right.
And he was so passionate in life about everything besides work. Right. But because he was lovable, he was so fun to be with. And I said to him, one day, I said, you know, you're going to have to leave this company when you're good and ready. And five years later, he was out that door. The truth is it's very easy to tolerate lovable slackers, but they do have a problem.
They cause problems on a team. Um, what problems do you think these lovable slackers caused? I think they cause, um, perhaps extra workload for others. I think they can be maybe a distraction, um, and perhaps rub off on others. Well, it's like the bare minimum. What comes to mind is this the person that always does the bare minimum.
If you're only doing the [00:48:00] bare minimum, then others are going to look at you and think, well, hang on, I'm pulling a lot of weight here. How can, how can you come and help me? Oh yeah. Good point. Good point. Yeah, because people like, hang on a second, I'm going the extra mile, but you're not. So invariably, if there's too many lovable slackers, what happens in a team?
Do you think? I don't think it's going to go very far. I mean, I'll only reach maybe that glass ceiling and not break through it. Well, I think, you know, to build on that. If everyone's a lovable slacker and doing the bare minimum, the cracks will open up because how many times is that the additional incremental contribution of others that get us across the line?
Right? So if, if everybody's bare minimum, it's not like our it's, it's just adequate. It's actually inadequate because. Things actually, uh, unexpected, unforeseen things always come. So if you don't have an extra player, who's, you know, coming back to make an [00:49:00] extra man in defense, even though he's just been on the attack.
If you don't have that, you will get some nasty surprises. Yeah. You'll get the knowledge you need that extra work, that desire to go over. It's kind of like, um, imagine putting a plate back together. You could piece all the pieces. Because that's the bare minimum, but then stick together. It's not going to be a finished product.
That glue is that extra mile by connecting them and by somebody taking that and buy it, ideally everybody on the team going that extra mile, you're connecting each of those pieces, therefore creating something that's really strong and something that can weather that storm. But when you've got that lovable slacker, other people might call it a potentially a weak link, whatever is just doing the bare minimum.
It's just never, you're never going to Excel perhaps. Yeah. And there's been a lot of studies to suggest that with what [00:50:00] happens with the lovable slacker, the bare minimum is that that by, uh, by and large often drags the majority of folks in an organization down to that level, because that's, that's seen as the acceptable behavior.
So very interesting learning, uh, In that one. Um, the lovable slacker, I mean, can you imagine a team full of lovable slackers and accidental mess makers? I mean, Oh my gosh. Hey Mark. I'm sure
you go to the pub or Christmas dinner. I'm sure it'd be really fun, but Mike, there's still one more archetype. The Patrick's going to tell us about. All right. Well, tell us who is this third, somewhat scary, uh, architect. I'll look, if, if the lovable slacker in the accidental mess makers are the, the fun and games, I think this one could be perhaps the most dangerous.
And this one Patrick's going to tell us a little bit about it is called the [00:51:00] skillful politician. Now the third type is the most difficult type. This is the person who is hungry. They really want to work hard. They're ambitious and they're smart. So they're really good at dealing with people, but they're not humble.
We call this the skillful politician. I'm sure your mayor here is not the skillful cog in this sense. No, she's probably a skillful leader, but not the skillful politician in this sense. Skillful politicians are so smart that they know how to portray themselves as being humble, which is a very dangerous thing.
Because what they do is they interview well. They go to meetings and they, and they say the right things. They know how to kiss up to the boss or the coach or the teacher. The problem is deep down inside. It's about them, not about others. And by the time we figure it out, there's usually a trail of dead bodies hidden in closets, around the organization.
I once worked with a team with this guy on the team that was a skillful politician and he was so clever at hiding it. [00:52:00] He was so clever that he was even Canadian. You see, you would never suspect a Canadian. They're always so nice. You would never think they would be that way. And we would go to meetings and this guy would be so good with people.
And we thought he is the ultimate team player. He's wonderful. And then after a while we realized, man, his salary is tripled. Half of his colleagues are gone. He's been gaming. This the truth of the matter is when a person lacks humility, but they're good at presenting themselves. That can be a very dangerous thing on a team.
I mean it just so Makola Velien isn't it Mark? Yeah, it sounds almost, um, evil. It's like the bad guy in a movie is gaining the system, uh, gaming the system from the colleagues around him, either taking on extra work or perhaps being removed entirely so that they benefit is it's just very like, like Patrick goes out, it's dangerous.
[00:53:00] Well, it w it certainly is because you can start to see how each of these three archetypes would wreak havoc in a, you know, small, uh, Team, that's trying to do something meaningful. Each one of these could make some sort of mess, right. You know, the bare minimum contributor, uh, which is called the lovable slacker.
Never really giving anything extra. So everybody else is forced to do that. They accidental mess maker. Who's just. Really nice, but it doesn't doesn't really have a sense of how their words are perceived. And then there's this macular villian skillful politician type. Um, Yeah. I mean, it's just sounds a bit diabolical.
You could almost see a screenplay for, for a Netflix show off the back of this. Right? Exactly. And as you say that this book by Patrick Lencioni, the [00:54:00] ideal team player is in itself a little bit like a screenplay. It's a fable, it's a fable similar to the five dysfunctions of a team. And it's a wonderful kind of story.
Basically. I'm bringing these individuals to live. You know, as, as a good screenplay or a good movie or, or, or theater production would have, sometimes it's too late. When you figure out that you've got these potential members on your team, or in fact, maybe you are one of these potential team members and that's sometimes pretty dangerous for the organization.
So to identify them to really, you know, cultivate those three virtues of being humble, being hungry and being smart. That's how we can all try to elevate ourselves into being what Patrick would say is the ideal team player. I mean, yeah, it's great. And I think the way that we can always all think about how we might broach with each of these three [00:55:00] architects, archetypes, um, I think there's a way of doing it, which is.
Really encouraging them to see their own personal vision, their ambition, and their purpose inside of the team, achieving its objectives and goals because each of these three archetypes could cause correct could grow as individuals. If you're able to demonstrate to them that they benefit from the team.
Reaching the objective. There's so much in it for them. And in fact, by contributing to the team objective, they are fulfilling their own individual purpose. That is the key with these three archetypes say, Hey, look, I know it means a lot to you personally, to achieve X, Y, and Z. And do you realize how amazing.
That contribution if you were to do that within this [00:56:00] objective. So if we reach out objective as a team, it's going to require the very best version of yourself. So we need you. We want the best version of you. We need you to grow, and if you can help the team achieve its objectives, you'll win too. It's a win-win, uh, you will on board.
I I'm totally on board. If I was in that position, then I would be. Listening up and taking action straight away. Um, Oh, the dark side, the dark side Mark though is if they can't say yes, what would you do in that situation? If they're not able to sign up? Well, what, where are we then? I mean, you kind of get painted into a corner, don't you, if you can't to intersperse or, you know, integrate.
And change that behavior. And if they're just too destructive and they're damaging for the team, [00:57:00] let alone the product or the business, I don't know. It feels like to use your sport analogy. There might be a red card coming up. I think so. And I want to do a last build on this because we're really going into the zone here.
I think if you reach a point where they can't sign up for the team's objectives, but they can't make the connection between their personal goals and the team goals, then I find the most powerful frame at this point is that you say, Hey, there's no right or wrong here, but where we are is where to.
Entities one is the team and one is yourself and we just don't have a fit. There's no blame here. There's no fit. The team doesn't fit you and you don't fit the team. There's no judgment in that observation, it's just, you [00:58:00] know, a square in a round hole. So it is now our job as good humans on the planet is to give you some feedback.
About what a great team for you would look like. And two, we're going to introduce you to a bunch of people who we think might have teams like that. And then this is how you get out of that situation, where you're at loggerheads with people that are either underperforming or there's too much collateral damage around in the team.
It's the fit discussion, but it's an objective it's, it's got to be absent of judgment. It's just like, Hey, square, round hole, no feed. Yeah. You're demonstrating those three virtues of Patrick by addressing somebody who isn't, if a people leader, manager, HR, or a team player day to day follows those three virtues and how they interact with those around [00:59:00] them.
Even if the news is bad and the outcome is to go and introduce them to other people by maintaining those three virtues. You're being that ideal team player regardless and listen, ma we've gone through the virtues. We've gone through the archetypes, but we got one more click to bring it home, set it out for a smart there's one final thought from Patrick.
Who's telling us all about his fantastic virtues and our times of being the ideal template. So let's hear about Patrick telling us about the H H S score. Now, let me leave you with this at my company at the table group, we don't care when we hire people where they went to college, we really don't and we don't care about their GPA or their act or their sat.
The only three letter acronym we care about really is H H and S. And I think that's something that we need to do more of in our society, whether it's [01:00:00] professional development in our organizations or whether it's in our schools. You know, I think as, as father of four boys, I think it's time, we took a little bit of the pressure off kids from just memorizing the periodic table of the elements.
Yes, sir. I am BIC pentameter, whatever that is. I don't even remember, or with a quadratic equation. I mean, we have to learn those things. I get this and kids should work hard. But I think we should actually give them things that they can control in their lives that are really going to pay off in their future.
And we should teach them how to be other centered, not self-centered. We should teach them how to work hard at everything they do school and everything else, just because it's the right thing to do. And third, we should teach them how to be more adept, interpersonally, and emotionally with the people around them.
See, I think that could make a huge difference in our corporations and in our schools and our families. And I really believe world would be a better place and that our companies would be better places. Our families would be better. And the individuals in society would be better. If [01:01:00] more of us were humble, hungry, and smart.
Who har, well, Patrick, Lensioni, he really revved up there and brought the whole thing home. What? I mean, that's a pretty powerful argument. Yeah. Powerful argument. It's a perfect summation of each of those virtues that we've heard about during the show. And again, just remind us back to the very beginning.
If you start with these values, even though they might seem pretty simple, but if you're actually really, really objective about it, And think, do I really follow these each and every day? I don't think many of us do. I think this is a great reminder or a great mantra, as we were talking about to try and encourage us to be more humble, more hungry and more smart each day with those around us.
Totally. Now we talked about, you know, those, those three essential ingredients, humble, hungry, smart. We mentioned that. You know, owning up to your [01:02:00] mistakes is great. Great humility being hungry is doing more than just your job and being smart is really listening to understand of each of these, which one really gut check Mark, which one really made you go.
Ooh. Okay. So note to self I it's something I think is really, really valuable, particularly right now. And it's being smart, being emotionally smart, being, firstly, you listen, but also you understand what others are potentially saying or trying to say during meetings and conversations and making sure that they feel heard and listened to, and that they're given the opportunity to say something.
I think for me, that is. A real foundation to build on being really smart. How about you, Mike? You [01:03:00] know, I, uh, I think it was a good reminder to listen and I think it's just like, um, note to self, right? As a chatterbox, you know, it's really important that I shut the hell up and listen, we're, we're both, we're both pretty similar.
So why don't we both hold each other accountable to it? Yeah, that's a great idea. But listen, our teamwork series is not complete who who's going to be next on the moonshots podcasts. We're now getting into a really, really interesting little space. We're going to be hearing and listening to and diving into the work of Abby Wambach, who wrote a fantastic book called Wolf pack.
That'll be next week, episode one Oh three, Abby Wamback I think we're going to learn a lot from Abby's time in football. I think it's going to be a great one, Mike. It is, we're going to really explore all dimensions of, of teamwork. So, um, the adventure [01:04:00] is not over yet, but Mark, that was pretty good. Wasn't it?
I mean, Lindsay only delivers Lensioni delivers. I think he's taught us so much about how to cultivate a great team as well as be a great team player. I think they're all so actionable that we should. We should go and, and, and go and do them now rather than just scribble it down as your mantra and let's hold ourselves accountable.
I agree. I agree. And listen. Um, I think if someone wants to grab the show notes, I'll get a transcription of this show. Where can they go? Mark? Just like, uh, feedback. Button and ability to get in touch with us listeners, please navigate over to moonshots.io. You can find all of our shows all 102, by the time that Patrick Lencioni, this episode comes out, you can find show transcriptions.
You can find all of our archive shows as well as all of our [01:05:00] future. Entrepreneurs and innovators that we're going to be getting into. It is a treasure trove I should say, or a hopeful inspiration indeed. Well, Mark, as always at this point of the show, I will say thank you to you. Uh, it's been pretty good, right?
It's been great. Thank you, Mike, for coming on this, uh, humble, hungry and emotionally smart journey with me, well said, well said, so Mark, thank you. And to you, our audience. Thank you to you. I hope you are. Thoroughly enjoying Patrick Glenn syrup. I hope you're really getting something out of these, uh, important and inspirational ideas around teamwork.
And please know this, that our journey teamwork has yet to finish. But right now I really want you to focus on what we've learned today. I want you to remember that being. [01:06:00] The ideal team player starts with admitting to your mistakes. And as you work with the team, make sure you take a moment to pause and to listen in order to understand.
And if you do that, You're almost there. What you just got to bring is a bit a good old fashioned hard work, go above and beyond. So be hungry, be humble, super smart. And you'll be on your way to being the ideal team player. Thanks for joining us on this adventure, where we learn out loud together, and we look forward to having you on the next deep working episode here at the moonshots podcast.
That's a wrap.