Ninety percent of divorce conflict can be resolved through dialog and negotiation. But what about that last ten percent? In these situations you might find yourself interacting with partners that have moved from the frustration and grief natural in the divorce process and into what we have come to call high conflict behavior.
Our guest today is Megan Hunter, co-founder of the High Conflict Institute, an organization dedicated to this group that engages in high conflict behaviors. What is high conflict behavior in the divorce process? How do you resolve conflict when risk is high and this behavior is potentially dangerous? How do you move toward settlement when any resolution appears to be impossible? Join us today to find out.
Ninety percent of divorce conflict can be resolved through dialog and negotiation. But what about that last ten percent? Megan Hunter of the High Conflict Institute joins the Toaster this week to help us navigate the volatile divorce.
Show Notes
Ninety percent of divorce conflict can be resolved through dialog and negotiation. But what about that last ten percent? In these situations you might find yourself interacting with partners that have moved from the frustration and grief natural in the divorce process and into what we have come to call high conflict behavior.
Our guest today is Megan Hunter, co-founder of the High Conflict Institute, an organization dedicated to this group that engages in high conflict behaviors. What is high conflict behavior in the divorce process? How do you resolve conflict when risk is high and this behavior is potentially dangerous? How do you move toward settlement when any resolution appears to be impossible? Join us today to find out.
Podcaster and co-host, Pete Wright brings years of marriage and a spirit of curiosity to the divorce process. He's spent the last two decades interviewing experts and thinkers in emotional healing and brings that with him to the law, divorce, and saving relationships in the process.
Host
Seth R. Nelson
Seth Nelson is the founding attorney and managing partner at NLG Divorce & Family Law. He is a Tampa-based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems.
Producer
Andy Nelson
Hailing from nearly 25 years in the world of film, television, and commercial production, Andy has always had a passion for storytelling, no matter the size of the package.
What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?
Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.
Pete Wright:
Welcome to how to split a toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today on the show, how do you diffuse a really volatile toaster?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Seth Nelson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. 90% of divorce conflict can be resolved through dialogue and negotiations. But what about that last 10 percent? Our guest today joins us from the High Conflict Institute, an organization dedicated to that group that engages in what they call high conflict behaviors.
Seth Nelson:
How to resolve conflict when risk is high and behavior is potentially dangerous. We've got the High Conflict Institute cofounder here to tell us all about it. Megan Hunter, welcome to the toaster.
Megan Hunter:
Thank you. I am so happy to be on the toaster today.
Pete Wright:
I I got I gotta start. You you gotta tell us how you I mean, you're talking about these last 10% of people, the high conflict people, and you think to yourself, well, they're doing things that are unlikable. I think I'd like to work with them. How do you how do you end up there?
Megan Hunter:
It's kind of a silly path road, isn't it? Silly, yeah. So why would I want to work with the the most difficult, as I call them, the most difficult difficult people? And so the very, very brief story is there was this this, my first job out of college getting my undergraduate. I had a it was child support job working in the county attorney's office in Nebraska.
Megan Hunter:
And, there was one particular client that I just every time she walked in the office, I wanted to strangle her, like, jump jump right across the desk, and I'm, you know, I'm just a strangle, but I I restrained myself. But I got very interested in conflict right from the go when when that was happening. And in that job, I was helping people, you know, dads get to have time, with their children and, and connect with their children. So I was, you know, kind of fascinated in in human behavior way back then, and eventually ended up at the Arizona Supreme Court as the family law specialist, which was a lot of, you know, legislation, policy work, training the judges, being sort of the hub in the middle of the wheel of all the the, specialties within the field of family law, like parenting coordinators and mediators and lawyers and judges, and there's a lot. Right?
Megan Hunter:
As you guys know. And I, I got fascinated with this blend of psychology and law. And and why when when I talked to the judges and all of the players in in the entire field, including the parents, and, evaluating, you know, statistics about when parent education works for parents and and they're at 10 magical 10 to 20% that it doesn't. Right? All of this seemed to when I would interview everyone and and and ask them, you know, what is the biggest problem in family law?
Megan Hunter:
It was always high conflict cases. So I'm looking around the world and going, okay, there's a lot of really smart people working in the profession. I can't figure this out. Right? Why can't we do it?
Megan Hunter:
And, that's really to answer your question. I I I like, why are we doing something that we can't can't work with? Why why can't we fix this?
Seth Nelson:
It's fascinating to me that you say that because I am a strong believer that psychology plays a huge role in what I do as a divorce attorney in getting clients to settlement or getting them to resolution through a trial. And what I mean by that, I tell people cases settle when they're ready to settle and not a moment before. And you have to change the dynamics of the psychology on whoever is withholding on the settlement. And what I mean by that is maybe that is setting for trial and you have someone very controlling, and they now understand when they walk in that courtroom, they are no longer in control. They're treated like a child speak when spoken to.
Seth Nelson:
Or maybe it's when you go to court and you get a temporary relief, and the parent that was controlling the money or the spouse controlling the money has to start paying temporary alimony and stroke a big check for their other spouse's attorney's fees. Or their client that was withholding the child from one parent all of a sudden has to give up the child. That's a change in psychology based upon behaviors that are being forced upon them. And I am just so looking forward to this conversation to, talk about first, what does it mean to have a high conflict divorce? Every client I say will call potential client, my spouse is the worst you'll ever deal with.
Seth Nelson:
And I'm like, that was the call last time.
Pete Wright:
They can't all be. Right?
Seth Nelson:
So so what classifies it, high conflict divorce?
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. Good good point. Because the same thing at at High Conflict Institute, you know, when we answer the phone or get that email and it says, oh, I have to tell you this story. It's I'm sure you've never heard anything like this before. Mine is the worst, and I'm gonna write a book about it.
Megan Hunter:
Right. It's always the path. So what characterizes a high conflict divorce or high conflict co parenting is really 4 basic things. There are 4 fundamental characteristics of a high conflict divorce or high conflict situation. Right?
Megan Hunter:
So the purse there's at least one of the 2, maybe both, that exhibits all or nothing thinking. Right? So it's very much in, splitting, dividing, choosing a friend you become a, you're first a friend and then you can quickly become an enemy. You are idealized and then you became, you know, devalued.
Pete Wright:
It's suddenly that sort of binary like the switch is on then the switch is off.
Megan Hunter:
It's on off. You're my friend or you're my enemy. Bottom line. Yeah. And then there's, you know, unmanaged emotions.
Megan Hunter:
So, you know, when you are working with, someone who's just if they cry a lot, or they get mad a lot, or they shift suddenly from anger to sadness or just being fine to really angry or raging or running out of the room. They just can't contain and control their emotions, which as you know, you know, in divorce, a lot of people are at their worst behavior, but with these folks, it's a pattern of this behavior. This is what I call, and this is not a psychological term. I am not a psychologist, but I call this a relationship disorder. These are folks who have really hard time in personal relationships.
Megan Hunter:
They have a hard time in close relationships. And so if you have a hard time with relationships, where are you gonna end up? You're gonna end up in 1, and then you're going to end up in divorce court.
Seth Nelson:
Love those guys.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. Love those guys. They're needed. They're so needed.
Seth Nelson:
Right. You know, I'd I'd have a different job. I'd be working at a liquor store, you know, which is not a bag to gig. You know?
Pete Wright:
But
Megan Hunter:
You yeah. I mean, so there are days. Right? So, and then just to quickly just
Pete Wright:
a quick question about that. In in your experience, are people, all or nothing thinkers in general, or are there there circumstances that trigger this kind of a change? Right? Like, are are you gonna have somebody who is kinda okay day to day, and then suddenly they're in a divorce and they just don't know how to handle it, and their behavior becomes erratic or volatile? What is that a thing?
Megan Hunter:
That is a thing, but but that could be any of us.
Seth Nelson:
Right? Right.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. So, you know, but we eventually find that gray area. The rest of us go to mediation. We will sign the settlement documents. We can settle it between ourselves without attorneys.
Megan Hunter:
We, you know, we do some type of out of court settlement, maybe go to court once in a while, but, you know, eventually find that path, and then we aren't back in court over and over and over again. But the true the the person what we call the person with a high conflict personality, right, is one that is it just has these relationship dysfunctions and it it beyond the all or nothing and the unmanaged emotions, it's extreme behaviors, which can be anything from lying to public shaming to not being able to stop themselves from texting 4,000 times. Mhmm. It's it's, you know, stuff that 90% of other people wouldn't do. These HCPs, so to speak, do those things.
Seth Nelson:
I I like the term high conflict high conflict personality because I can rattle off in my head a list of cases that I have that have high conflict personalities in them. And these are the type of cases that the party or the lawyer, because the lawyer could be the high conflict personality in the case as well. Right. But if you're dealing with a client that you find yourself as the lawyer thinking, like, I deal with conflict all day long. I have to fight the court system.
Seth Nelson:
I have to, you know, make my arguments to opposing counsel. That could be conflict, but I have to fight my client too.
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Seth Nelson:
And that one, which happens all the time, Pete, where I will tell people you are paying me $450 an hour not to take my advice. Yep. Can you explain that to me? Yeah. Well I don't understand why you're paying me.
Seth Nelson:
Sounds good.
Pete Wright:
There's just a lot of ego in there. Like, I need to be I have I'm so sure of myself. I need to pay you in order to validate how right I am Right. In spite of of that cost.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And and and Meg and, Megan, on this point, just real quick, I wanna hear what you're gonna say next is I'll tell these people when we're trying to get to settlement, you can be right or you can settle your case. You cannot be both.
Megan Hunter:
Exactly. So on 80 to 90% of people, that will sink in. Alright? But for the person with a high conflict personality, which also includes blame. So that's the 4th characteristic.
Megan Hunter:
That's the key is the blame, blame, blame. It's always someone else's fault and I'm the victim. You know, they are driven by something different than the other 80 to 90% of people. And so they they like I said, it's relationship disorder, this high conflict personality, which by the way is not a diagnosis. It's just a pattern of behavior.
Megan Hunter:
So and it happens in relationships. So it's not like a chemical imbalance. It's it's a it's a relationship, disorder and, you know, our work at High Conflict Institute is really based in 5 of those personality types that do drive this conflict. So what does it mean to to drive conflict? And a true HCP, high conflict personality, escalates conflict.
Megan Hunter:
Now in a divorce, we all may be a little escalating, but eventually, like I said, we come to some agreement. We come to some understanding. We calm down. We can control our emotions, those kind of things. With these folks, they can't contain themselves, and they've got to control relationships.
Megan Hunter:
And they have they they, it's just hard for them to find that gray area. So what drives them? What drives them is a what I call a fear based operating system. Right? And this is the big dividing point here.
Megan Hunter:
It's the paradigm shift you have to make in your mind to under really understand that you're dealing with something different here. And so you have to adapt your strategies because if you don't, it's not going to work because what works for everyone else doesn't work for them. And so I I try to really drive home this point that that's an operating system just like if you have a an Android or an iPhone. You got 2 different operating systems. Right?
Megan Hunter:
And one of them doesn't they don't know that this is their operating system. So it's it's just how they who how they're programmed. Right? But they're not the same, and you can't tell an iPhone to become an Android or vice versa. So what happens is they've got this operating system that's driven by a fear of something.
Megan Hunter:
And when they so they're let's say everyone has a default operating system. So if your default is to feel superior all the time, and you feel good when you feel superior, like, you're on top of the world, right, then your fear gets triggered, and that's all brain stuff. But your fear gets triggered, what's your what's the opposite of superior? Inferior. So if someone's you say something to your spouse and, they they they suffer from this default superiority, and they suddenly feel inferior, like, they feel criticism very easily.
Megan Hunter:
So, oh, inferior. It triggers it.
Seth Nelson:
That will trigger. That's gonna trigger the escalating conflict because they have to get back to where they are, where they perceive they should be.
Pete Wright:
I think that's really it because we're talking about what are the things that you need to learn about the person on the other side of the table that are triggering. Right? And I I guess my guess is that's a lot of what your consultation is about, learning to read the room in that
Megan Hunter:
way. Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Can I add to that, though? Because I think there's a point that needs to be made. And correct me if I'm wrong, Megan. I, Pete loves it when I'm wrong, and he so that's why he likes having the guests on. So, it it's hard if you're the one that is not the high conflict personality.
Seth Nelson:
And the other personality is just coming at you, it's hard to have empathy for them even though just to basically say they're an Android phone. I I talk iPhone, so I know this isn't gonna work. It's hard to have empathy with that when you're the one getting attacked.
Megan Hunter:
Yes. It is.
Seth Nelson:
So so, we're not saying this is easy out there, listeners. We're saying this is really hard for you to actually have empathy. But what happens is if you can get a little empathy to just say that's the way he's wired, It helps you. And the reason it helps you, it's no longer about you. It's about them.
Seth Nelson:
And then it's not you saying they're a psychopath or they're this or they're this that. You're just saying, that's the way they're wired. I'm not gonna change it. I'm gonna change my behaviors. So it makes it easier for me to deal with someone that's wired in this crazy way.
Megan Hunter:
Right. Which ultimately decreases your own stress and helps your children. And then you start teaching them those same skills. And you're right. It's it's really yeah.
Megan Hunter:
I mean, you have to dig deep and be super, super disciplined, if you're dealing with an HCP co parent. Because, you know, like you said, you you you don't It it's just not natural to have empathy for someone who's driving you crazy, who's personally attacking you, you know, being very hostile, undermining your parenting, all of those things, and it it's so you really do have to dig deep and do the opposite of what you feel like doing. And then you add on top of that when you get into talking about, you know, brain science and our amygdala is, you know, they're kinda like Wi Fi. They're kinda, you know, hanging off of each other.
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Megan Hunter:
And so, you know, your amygdala is watching out for for danger and threats. So when you have this person threatening you, attacking you, looking angry, yelling at you, because that's what HCPs do, they yell a lot, especially in divorce, then your amygdala goes, I call it Miggy. Miggy for because amygdala is hard for most people to to to say. It's strange how, like, when I
Seth Nelson:
do this. Name.
Megan Hunter:
So Miggy
Seth Nelson:
We need
Pete Wright:
a design. Don't you have a character design?
Megan Hunter:
I do. I do. Great mark. Beautiful. Got your service Mark.
Megan Hunter:
Whatever. You guys are the lawyers.
Seth Nelson:
Leave leave the lawyer language to me. Good try. Right. That's what Pete does too. It's very cute when you try jurisdiction.
Seth Nelson:
Right. When you try to speak legalese, but we'll we'll we'll deal with Mickey later.
Megan Hunter:
Yes. So Miggy, you know, we've all so we talk a lot about the other this high conflict Miggy. Right?
Seth Nelson:
Mhmm.
Megan Hunter:
Kinda being hypersensitive and over gets overstimulated and that's when you get these bad behaviors. Right? And these folks don't have any access to logical problem solving, you know, because the bridge is shut down between the the reactionary brain and the problem solving brain. So these folks just their lives are just reacting, reacting, reacting.
Seth Nelson:
So they do that. How in the non Miggy person, right, or or if I'm the guy that's being attacked
Megan Hunter:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
How do I respond? What do I do?
Megan Hunter:
Okay. So your Miggy might be hijacked. Your Miggy goes, oh, I'm gonna do my job too. And this all happens, like, in a fraction of a second. And it goes, okay.
Megan Hunter:
Well, I'm gonna shut down your bridge over to your problem solving side, and I'm gonna leave you in your reactionary side. And then that's why you see the non high conflict parent parent oftentimes overreacting. And you're not Let let
Seth Nelson:
me make a point here. This doesn't just happen with parents. This also happens with people who are not who are married, don't have kids, and they're going through a divorce or they're in that relationship.
Megan Hunter:
Oh, for sure.
Seth Nelson:
So we're using the kids as an example. But if you're listening out there, this apply I've had cases with no kids that were still high conflict, and the judges are looking at me like, we're not arguing about the kids. What's the problem? I'm a said, second thing, judge, we're arguing about the money, and we're not really arguing about the money. We're dealing with high conflict personalities here.
Megan Hunter:
Right? And to that point, the issues with high conflict disputes, the issue is not the issue. Right? That's very important for anyone going through a a, you know, a divorce family matter, anything like that. You know, especially a high conflict one.
Megan Hunter:
The issue is not the issue. The personality is the issue. And so we often get caught up in in stuck in the issue, fighting about you didn't let me see the kids, you took the money, you, you know, cleaned out the bank account. That's it. Well, that's not the issue.
Megan Hunter:
You gotta figure out how to deal with the other the other stuff. Right? The personality stuff, so you can manage the the the thing you're working on.
Pete Wright:
We kept coming back to the amygdala. The amygdala, what we know about the amygdala is that it learns through experience. And if the experience that you're learning over and over and over again is a state of fear, it'll respond in a state of fear. Right? This is why you white knuckle when you're parasailing if you're afraid of heights.
Pete Wright:
Right? Until you train it not to be afraid of that experience, you're going to be afraid of that experience. Until you train yourself how to talk to the bully, the high conflict personality, you're not going to know how to talk to the high conflict personality. So I I wonder if we could talk just a little bit about how to talk to the high conflict personality, not just what it exists what it looks like as a state. What are some of the tools that you give people to navigate that relationship?
Megan Hunter:
Great question. So glad you asked. So there's you know, most of most of life is about communication. So with an HCP person, we we we have to adapt how we communicate orally with them verbally, and how we, write in, written communications with them. So we have 2 very specific and seemingly simple skills, but they can be hard if you're, you know, like, emotionally hooked.
Megan Hunter:
Right? So, if you're talking to someone in person, your conflict a high conflict co parent or divorcing spouse, we use what we call EER statements. EER standing for empathy, attention, or respect. K? So you don't have to think about what which one do you use.
Megan Hunter:
Just use any of them because here's what happens. This person is reactionary, and their brain is just reacting, reacting, reacting, and the only way to counterbalance that is to give them a little ear. And I like to call it a sugar shot. Gives me a little sugar. Right?
Megan Hunter:
And so what's what's that what's that sound like? I can understand your frustration over this situation. I can't yeah. I get that you're frustrated. And so you're using words that you don't feel like saying, but they have a little bit of empathy or a little bit of attention.
Megan Hunter:
If you're dealing with someone that's really self absorbed like a narcissist, you use the word respect a lot because they they really dig that. Yeah. It makes that so the give them a sugar shot. Right?
Pete Wright:
And it compounds I respect your position.
Megan Hunter:
I respect your position. I hear you. I hear you.
Pete Wright:
I hear
Seth Nelson:
you. I hear you. You you said somewhat, one that I never use. Oh. So it it struck my ear when you said it is
Pete Wright:
What is it? What
Seth Nelson:
is it? I understand. I understand. No. I understand how you feel because they say, no.
Seth Nelson:
You don't. So
Pete Wright:
Oh, right.
Seth Nelson:
Look at that. So so You could
Pete Wright:
never understand how I feel.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. So what I I always do in that situation is I say, I appreciate where you're coming from.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Because now it's about me. I appreciate you. I appreciate your position. That's validating them because now they can't say, no, you don't. That that does no longer make sense.
Seth Nelson:
Mhmm. Right? When I say, I understand your position. No. You don't.
Seth Nelson:
Because if you did, you would agree with me. Right? Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Of course. Of course.
Seth Nelson:
But I appreciate it. I might not agree with it, but I appreciate where you're coming from. So, Megan, let's just give a little quick, I appreciate where you're coming from. I appreciate your position. Other adjectives you you just quickly ran through were you're talking about I respect what you're saying.
Megan Hunter:
Yep. What
Seth Nelson:
were some other ones?
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. I get I get where you're coming from. Let's see if we can figure this out together. I use a lot of let's or we so that they don't feel singled out and it feels less maybe onerous or, they don't get as defensive maybe. We're on
Pete Wright:
a journey. We're going in the same direction. Anything to define alignment?
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. Kind of. But when they're really upset, it's it's more about them. Right? So you you giving them that little sugar shot that makes them it's just like if you think about their right brain on fire, you're the one you're the firefighter with the hose that's giving, you know, spraying it with water that's full of ear statements.
Megan Hunter:
Right? And so, yeah, I can respect that. And then it's not just the words
Seth Nelson:
you say. It was empathy. What was the a again?
Megan Hunter:
Attention.
Seth Nelson:
Attention and respect.
Megan Hunter:
So let me tell you, those are the three things their brain is craving. K? It's because I wanna be clear here. These are not bad people. Right?
Megan Hunter:
These are people who have a personality they've had that that's been forming their whole lives. They don't even know that it's that it's not like everyone else. And that it's It's
Seth Nelson:
not in the range of behavior that people would call typical.
Pete Wright:
And it's not serving their best interests in this situation. Right? I mean, that's that's another thing. It's a square peg round
Seth Nelson:
hole. So we give them the sugar shot, then what do we do?
Megan Hunter:
Okay. So that kinda calms them, but, like, there's just 2 little more little important factors with the sugar shot, and that's to you you keep your voice calm, which, like, for me, that's a really hard thing. When somebody else escalates, I tend to escalate. When I get mad, I escalate my void my volume, and you've just gotta avoid that. You have to avoid smacking your forehead, which, you know, we do with our divorce Favorite emoji.
Megan Hunter:
Right? Exactly. And or rolling your eyes or, you
Seth Nelson:
know, that's the second one. Exactly.
Megan Hunter:
So you have to avoid those things and just be calm and kind and objective. So ear and use a calm tone of voice because let me tell you, Miggy is super sensitive to tone of voice, particular with peep with people with one type of personality. Some are so hypersensitive to tone of voice that they what you hear is not a condescending tone of voice. Their Miggy does. And that's just that's it on fire.
Seth Nelson:
Megan, my girlfriend says to me all the time that I have stern voice. I have a voice, she calls it stern voice, which used to make my kid cry. Oh. I know it's sad. It was so sad.
Seth Nelson:
I know. He deserved it. No. Not at all. But she would say you're using stern voice in literally just in the tone of my voice on saying something.
Seth Nelson:
So I appreciate when you're talking about staying calm, looking at your tone of voice, because that's natural in me. I understand that about myself being self reflective. So even in normal conversations, I and especially when I'm in court, I'm very attuned to the tone I take with witnesses, with the court, with what's happening. So, I think it's just easy to overlook because there's a million different ways to say hi. Right?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. So stay calm, tone of voice.
Megan Hunter:
You stay calm, tone of voice, and don't overreact. You know that what your ex is like. Right? Or your soon to be ex. And you know what's going to trigger them.
Megan Hunter:
And so if it's looking at your phone during a conversation with them, don't do it because that takes for them, their their reactive brain needs attention. And you looking at your phone is not attention. So in that moment, give the attention. Now we're gonna talk about setting limits later. But
Seth Nelson:
is the a plus answer. I really respect what you have to say right now. Let me put my phone away to focus on that.
Megan Hunter:
A plus. A plus.
Seth Nelson:
Nice.
Pete Wright:
Pete, you're always doing that, going a gold star, going for the gold
Seth Nelson:
I gotta go for it. I gotta go for it, Pete.
Megan Hunter:
You're you can't just do your statements forever. Right? You use an ear statement to calm someone. But then if you're trying to get through a process, you have you're trying to have a conversation, you're in a mediation, you're exchanging the kids for the weekend. You're talking about the bank account.
Megan Hunter:
I don't know. Whatever. Right? You've gotta still talk about the issue. So what you wanna do after you get them calm within your statement, my big statement, Tim, calm before think.
Megan Hunter:
You want where where where we typically get it wrong with them is to get people thinking, and it you're explaining and arguing with them, and it always escalates if you don't have them calm first. And so you have that's the paradigm shift here is you have to focus on getting them calm, give them a little ear, and then get them thinking. So that and you get them thinking by asking them questions, and that shoves them over into problem solving brain. And when they're in problem solving brain, at least you can, you know, get somewhere. And once they're there, you get them analyzing options.
Megan Hunter:
Well, would you like to pick up our little guy on at 2 o'clock on Thursday or 5 o'clock on Friday? So you're you're giving them 2 choices and that forces people to think. Thinking is a calming activity. So instead of getting yourself engaged in the argument, now you're just going on this journey as they escalate and go down, up and down. You go, okay.
Megan Hunter:
They escalate. I'm gonna give them a little ear, and then I'm gonna get them thinking again.
Seth Nelson:
And I'm I'm just gonna reiterate. This is a lot of work. This is a lot of work for the non conflict party. We're giving you these tools. We're not saying that this is easy because you're being attacked.
Seth Nelson:
They're coming at you. You wanna either fear or or flee or fight. And, but in the long run, if you can learn these skills because the other person's not changing. The other person's not changing. And if you wanna keep on that merry-go-round, you can and you can have a high conflict divorce.
Seth Nelson:
But even sometimes when you do all this, we're not saying it necessarily works every time. There are some people that no matter how empathetic you can be and how calm you can be and over and not overreact, they still are who they are. These are just what I I like to call tricks of the trade. To see if we can change some of these, exchanges of, or if we can change some of these interactions, is really important to understand. We are not saying this is easy.
Megan Hunter:
No. And it takes practice and you'll screw up. And and now if you're a parent out there or, you know, spouse, anybody who's who's if, you know, you're gonna screw up. You're going to make mistakes. You're human.
Megan Hunter:
Your amygdala is your miggy is going to say, hey. I'm mad. And and so you guess what? You move on. You repair it.
Megan Hunter:
You do it differently the next time. You try ear again. You know? You set a limit, whatever. But but it's good to so so it's good for people to to realize you gotta get in into kind of a rhythm.
Megan Hunter:
You make it a shift and you, you know, we've written some guides like high conflict co parenting survival guides so that you, you know, these are hard things to do. This is, you know, kind of like going to what's the not alcoholic is anonymous, but the one for the family members, you know. You'll you kinda need support groups and Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Like Al Anon and
Megan Hunter:
Al Anon. That's it. And, you know, writing in journals or keeping track of of self care because some of these cases are, you know, some of these situations are the worst thing in the world. I mean, these this is the hardest thing you will ever go through, typically.
Seth Nelson:
So Megan, I've I've on this show, Pete and I have talked about dealing with narcissists and stuff. And I've expressed my thoughts on some of this, which is you have your phone there for your convenience and no one else's.
Megan Hunter:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
So if someone's blowing up your phone and texting, don't check it. Don't respond. I'm sorry. Don't react, respond. Reaction is without thought.
Seth Nelson:
Responding is with thought. And sometimes, don't respond at all. If there's nothing to respond to and when you change that behavior and you don't engage, that really throws these high conflict personalities for a loop. Is that accurate? If you're not taking the bait, if you're not if, you know, they've been pushing your buttons for 5, 10, 15 years, they know how to push your buttons.
Seth Nelson:
They know how to get what they need out of that interaction even if it's conflict. And all of a sudden, you stop. How does that impact them and impact the the person who's receiving that?
Pete Wright:
Just feels like that would be yet another trigger.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. Well, it it could be if they feel dissed. So if you're talking about a narcissist, you know, they they need to feel superior. And so this is kind of part 2 of the question earlier about communication. So I just talked about the using ear statements and then getting people calm before thinking, that's how to do it in person.
Megan Hunter:
But in writing, as you know, in divorce and and co parenting, it's just like texting and DM ing and emailing. It's it's just it's just nonstop. So with the true you can tell a true HCP when they can't stop themselves. Right? They they really like impulse control.
Megan Hunter:
They don't restrain themselves. They just can't stop themselves where other people can. K? So we engage and we don't we don't know what to do and, and we feel attacked. So we feel like we have to defend ourselves and there's all these allegations and all my lawyer said I need to, you know so they end up putting too much stuff in.
Megan Hunter:
But here's here's what happens. K? So let's say Miggy's their the HCP's Miggy goes. Right? Right brain's on fire.
Megan Hunter:
No problem solving going on. Gonna text. I'm mad. I'm gonna text right now. There's not even any thought put into it.
Megan Hunter:
It just happens so quickly. And that's because they feel all that anxiety and angst right in that moment. It's just all reactionary. And as soon as they get that out into a text message or into an email, it's out of them. I call it verbal vomit through the keyboard.
Megan Hunter:
Right? And now it's out of them and their anxiety goes back down. Guess where the anxiety just landed? The verbal vomit just landed on the other person. Right?
Pete Wright:
Right.
Megan Hunter:
You, the, the the co parents or the ex spouse are soon to be.
Pete Wright:
And, again, we've thrown the power imbalance back out of whack. Right? Because now that person has used it as a way to sort of take control.
Megan Hunter:
Right. Right. Exactly. And so you have to get again, get disciplined. And so what we say is number 1, do I need to respond?
Megan Hunter:
And I tell you what, I'm sure you guys have seen this where people will just perseverate over this stuff, for days, weeks. How do I respond to this email? And they lose sleep over it and everything, and instead, we teach BIFF responses. Number 1, do I need to respond? Typically, a lot of times you don't.
Megan Hunter:
Number 2, if you do, you sit down and this this takes thought, you use BIFF, b I f f, b for brief. It can only be 2 to 5 sentences. I for informative. Stick to the straight facts and information. Don't be defensive.
Megan Hunter:
Don't, respond to every allegation. Don't respond respond to personal attacks. Right? Just ignore that baloney. And then the first step is friendly.
Megan Hunter:
Just have a friendly tone, which is kinda like the ear thing we learned to where it just calms the Miggy, just hi or, you know, if it's an email, it's easier to do that than texting, you know, where you don't have a greeting in closing. But it's just a friendly tone.
Seth Nelson:
Mhmm.
Megan Hunter:
And some people, are you know, they're just they're mad and they're worn out. So it's hard to be friendly, but that's why we biff it so we can make it a little friendlier. If you're a sterile kind of cold person or business like person, you might have to sugar it up a little bit. And then the last f is firm, and that means you just close it firmly, meaning it's the end of the conversation, without being mean about it. And then if it's something where you need them to respond to you about, you know, selecting, you know, when you're gonna exchange kids or whatever the case may be, when when they're gonna drop the check off, you give them 2 choices or more.
Megan Hunter:
So it gets them focused on on making a choice. So that's the BIF approach. Less is more.
Seth Nelson:
And on informative and, like, really enjoyed when we were kids and we had to diagram sentences. I love that. I hated that. That was
Megan Hunter:
my worst thing ever.
Seth Nelson:
Right. So and I don't know if they even teach that anymore. So but, I say no adjectives. There's no reason to have descriptive terms. Like, just get rid of the adjectives.
Seth Nelson:
Okay? I like that. Mhmm. And then on friendly, you can start, hey, thanks for your text. Yep.
Seth Nelson:
Now tone is really hard in texts. Okay? So that that's in writing, it's also very difficult. But sometimes you can say, I know that tone is difficult in text messaging. I please accept this with an apology or or I I don't mean any of this mean.
Seth Nelson:
I don't mean to be harsh. If you say
Pete Wright:
I'm smiling as I write this.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Yeah. But not like being all snide about it. Right?
Megan Hunter:
Right. Right. You're smiling on the inside and the outside, not just the
Seth Nelson:
outside. Right. Right. Yeah.
Megan Hunter:
No. That's a that's a really good point.
Seth Nelson:
Infirm to me is like setting boundaries. Like Yeah. So
Pete Wright:
Or expectations. Right? I mean, I imagine if you're talking about, you know, finding a good day for the kids. I I would like to have this resolved by Friday, or please, I I expect a response by Thursday at 4.
Seth Nelson:
Or do you think we could get this resolved by Friday? Right? Like, what do you think? Hey. Can we get it done?
Seth Nelson:
Because they don't care what you think, Pete. Right? I wanna show image I have here.
Pete Wright:
I you guys have really set this the the diorama for me that one of us is Jane Goodall trying not to get pummeled by a gorilla.
Megan Hunter:
Like, how
Pete Wright:
does Jane Goodall snuggle with a gorilla? 1st, you gotta throw it a treat. Right? You gotta do something for the girl. So just keep the Jane Goodall
Megan Hunter:
I love
Pete Wright:
this. Gorilla thing going because you never know what's gonna trigger a gorilla.
Megan Hunter:
Right. Because she's like the gorilla whisper. But let me let me let me, that really sparked something here. So what we find and and if you're a parent out there, divorcee, listening to this and and, you know, you've you've you know what you're dealing with. You're you've been frustrated and all that and and you're probably thinking, this this person I'm dealing with is so unpredictable.
Megan Hunter:
Listen. These are the most predictable people on the planet. When they feel upset, they're gonna blow, and they're they're going to get make it personal, they're gonna make it hostile, they're some are going to be vengeful, vindictive, all those things. Right? They're all going to have a lack of empathy for you in your position.
Megan Hunter:
Right? They just can't. It's not in their operating system. So when you are you know, I've I've had instances, you know, the interactions where I just start pounding my forehead, like, why can't this person get any empathy? Oh, I don't know.
Megan Hunter:
Wired that way.
Seth Nelson:
I think your point that they're very predictable is one well said, and I express to people all the time is, don't take this personally. And they're like, well, they were attacking me. And I said, yeah. But they've said the same thing to you how many times? Yep.
Seth Nelson:
And I heard one line once when, they were walking out of the courtroom and this guy was just hammering this lady in the hall. And she just looked at him and said, any new material? Oh, nice. Oh, nice. Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Like like, she was just I heard it all before. There's nothing new here. Like, I it it I I have calluses from it. It doesn't affect me anymore. You know, you've picked at me so much.
Seth Nelson:
I've got the armor now.
Pete Wright:
Well, this is what we're talking about with the amygdala. The amygdala learns from experience. Right? You actually can count on that.
Megan Hunter:
Bingo.
Pete Wright:
That if you are if you are, bullied enough, eventually, you'll have the calluses.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Megan Hunter:
Hopefully. I mean Hopefully. And if you can't if you can't figure out how to stand up to that and I mean, it's really hard for some people, and it just it's based on how you grew up and how your parents raised you and the culture that
Seth Nelson:
Oh, yeah. Let's blame it on our parents. I'm all about that.
Pete Wright:
Oh, I think we already learned that. Yeah.
Megan Hunter:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. Yeah. We're good. Blame it on parents. That's right.
Seth Nelson:
Excellent.
Megan Hunter:
So, you know, I mean, it's it's go get some go get, you know, see a therapist. And not just any therapist. I always like to point people to, therapists that maybe have a little trauma, informed approach or have, used dialectical behavior therapy because it really can help you. And and if you find yourself never being able to stand up to that bully or to the rage because with some, you know, like someone with true borderline personality can experience rages that are beyond they're out of this world. Right.
Seth Nelson:
And that's listen. That's you've got 911. We're not talking about domestic violence. Let me be very clear. We're not talking about domestic violence.
Seth Nelson:
We're we're talking about someone that is over the top in their reactions, how they speak to you. This is when people call and say, well, they're very verbally abusive. They're very emotionally abusive. We're not if it if you are in danger, you need to call 911. Right.
Seth Nelson:
Amen. So let's be clear on that. But also, not responding, especially when you're not living together, you don't have to respond to the text. And if and there's reasons why we have stalking laws. When they start following you and showing up then you're at that extreme, call the authorities.
Seth Nelson:
We're talking about behaviors where someone is verbally aggressive, where someone is over the top in their reactions. So we we just wanna keep that in mind for everybody.
Megan Hunter:
And and, I mean, you are going to see, with this high conflict personality, you know, this may be where you do see some some violence, and it's because they can't restrain themselves in some instances and they have a lack of impulse control. And the rage is so heightened that, you know, whatever is in the hand goes flying out or, you know, there is a punch or whatever. So, like you said, call 911, find any resources you can for protecting yourself. But, yeah, these are these are these are difficult situations. I just wanted to give one little extra tip on the the BIF responses, when we're communicating by email or text or anything.
Megan Hunter:
Before you hit send, do a BIFF check. Is it brief? Is it informative? Is it friendly? Is it firm?
Megan Hunter:
They can find all this stuff on our website. Well, there's a book called BIFF for co parent communication. It's been number 1 on Amazon in family law for 7 or 8 months now. Love
Pete Wright:
that. Outstanding.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Pete's gonna give Pete's gonna give you a free plug at the end. You didn't even have to stick it in there.
Pete Wright:
No worries. You know what? It's in the show notes, everybody. Don't just tap the show notes. It'll take you right there.
Pete Wright:
You can get it yourself.
Megan Hunter:
I didn't write it, but I published it. Yeah. But, anyway, it's it's so good. And then and then you followed up with does it have any of the 3 a's? Does it contain advice?
Megan Hunter:
Because guess what? An HCP is not going to take advice. It's it's just gonna Mhmm. Right back to the conflict at gorilla. And, does it contain admonishments?
Megan Hunter:
Well, you should have done this. You know, if you'd have done this differently, and I tell you what, people think they don't do this, but we all do it. We all do it because we it's really their weaknesses are very obvious to us.
Seth Nelson:
When we critique our shows, Pete's whole line is, Seth, you should've said this. You should've done that. Why didn't you do that? I'm well aware of what you're talking about, Megan, here. Don't worry about it.
Seth Nelson:
We're good.
Megan Hunter:
Okay. And then the last a is no apologies. Now this is the one that always gets people a little funky. Right? Why what do you mean no apologies?
Megan Hunter:
Well, what happens is we get a little bit, we can go back into the role we used to be in with this person where we feel, you know, attacked or maybe we go into a submissive passive role.
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Megan Hunter:
And, we apologize out of that anxiety or out of that old pattern or just to make, you know, make ourselves feel better. So you're doing it for some reason that for yourself, and it usually is bad because it just validates that, in that person's mind, the true HCP, that it is all your fault. Right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And so if you're apologizing in
Seth Nelson:
the top. Yeah.
Megan Hunter:
You're right back. Apologies out. Now if you've done something wrong, it's fine to apologize. Let's be very clear. But for the most part, what we see, and we've been doing this 15, 20 years, is, is people saying, oh, I'm sorry.
Megan Hunter:
I'm sorry. And they're only doing it out of anxiety because they've been attacked.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
That, that is great words to to leave us with. It's just remember what is your natural natural stance. I I think I was once, given the, I think, possibly backhanded compliment that I could make for a a a great Canadian because my natural state is, oh, I'm sorry.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. I'm sorry.
Pete Wright:
It's just a cultural thing. Right?
Megan Hunter:
It's a pain. Australians all the time in divorce industry, financial industry, customer service, ombuds, and it's just like Canadians. Everything's I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's it's a hard one.
Pete Wright:
It's hard. It's hard. It's hard for everybody, and this is these are some great tools and tips. Can you please tell some people tell the good people where they can find out more about you and your work?
Megan Hunter:
Well, I appreciate that. So we have, a website, high conflict institute.com, and that's for, you know, professionals and and anyone, to get, you know, more information, lots of free articles. My cofounder, Bill Eddie, is the genius, in this in the picture, and he's, he's he just writes really good stuff. And then we've just started a a new website in the last year called Conflict Playbook, and that's online courses and support groups for parents or anyone in the divorce, dealing with high conflict person just to get some extra support and learn how to biff and how to use ear and those kinds of things. And then you can find our books anywhere books are sold, you know, hard copies, digital audio, things like that.
Megan Hunter:
Oh, and we have a really good one called Dating Radar, so you don't do this again.
Pete Wright:
Oh, that's good. Outstanding. So you don't date the gorilla. I love it.
Megan Hunter:
What? That would be a great subtitle. I'm gonna call you next time. I need to
Pete Wright:
stop. You know what? I'm I am really good with anything pretty much gorilla related. That's where
Megan Hunter:
it stops, But it's probably the gorilla whisper
Pete Wright:
from The gorilla whisper.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Outstanding. And for Christmas, I'm sending you some bananas, brother. That's what's happening now.
Pete Wright:
I'll take it. I'm a real Donkey Kong. Hey, thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and your attention. Good luck out there, on behalf of the the fantastic Megan Hunter from the High Conflict Institute and America's family divorce attorney, Seth Nelson.
Pete Wright:
I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next time right here on How to Split a Toaster, the divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Coster Family Law and Mediation with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, how to split a toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Coster.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
