Catholicism on the Rise? Stats, Attractions, and a Gospel Divide

Show Notes

In this episode of Wisdom for the Wilderness, Pastors Zack and Josh tackle the growing conversation around Protestants—especially young men—converting to Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and high-church traditions. They examine the actual data (spoiler: Catholicism is flat or declining overall, and more Catholics are becoming evangelicals than the reverse), the cultural and emotional attractions to liturgical worship, and the real frustrations many feel with modern evangelicalism’s seeker-sensitive, entertainment-driven approach.

The pastors then dive deep into the core theological differences: justification by faith alone versus faith plus works, the authority of Scripture versus tradition and the Pope, purgatory, Marian dogma, the priesthood of believers, and more. They explain why these aren’t minor preferences but represent fundamentally different understandings of the gospel itself.

Whether you’re curious about the trend, considering a switch, or want to better understand Catholic teaching from a Protestant perspective, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and a strong call to return to the authority of God’s Word. Don’t base your faith on aesthetics or aesthetics alone—base it on truth.

Creators and Guests

JH

Host

Josh Hutchens

What is Wisdom for the Wilderness?

Join Dr. Josh Hutchens, director of Gateway Seminary's Rocky Mountain Campus and pastor at Overland Church in Fort Collins, Colorado, as he explores spiritual faithfulness amid life's challenges and suffering. Through discussions on theological questions and inspiring stories, Wisdom for the Wilderness offers guidance and hope for navigating the complexities of faith in a broken world.

speaker-0: Welcome to Wisdom for the Wilderness, a weekly podcast by the pastors of Overland Church. We talk about the Bible, theology, practical topics, and today we're going to ask a question. I don't know exactly how the question was phrased, but it was essentially about the rise of Catholicism and why is Catholicism on the rise? And so right out of the gate, I'd first note it's not just Catholicism. Right. that we're seeing some people turn from Protestantism to these other faiths. So, you've got ⁓ Eastern Orthodox, ⁓ what else is there? Right?

speaker-1: Anglicanism, Church of England, those would be the main three. But I would say, you know, if we look at the actual stats, and I think Ryan Burge had these stats, do you have those?

speaker-0: Well, I do. have, I do have the stats. So Pew Research, Gallup Poll, and the Public Religion Research Institute, they all have stats. And on their stats, what it actually shows is that Catholicism is flat or declining overall. But we do see some people making the transition that direction. And so... ⁓

speaker-1: And actually, the bigger transition is there are more Catholics becoming evangelicals than there are evangelicals becoming Catholics.

speaker-0: And that's long been the trend. that's long been the trend. You've got a lot of recovering Catholics is what I they how I hear them. That's the language I hear them say so often recovering Catholic.

speaker-1: But it is, it's nevertheless a trend that a lot of our younger people who are trying to be serious in some way about theology and about their faith do seem to be attracted to Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism.

speaker-0: More of the, more of the liturgical high church traditions. And I'll talk, I'll talk about a a little bit about the why of that, but what the research shows is that it's, it's not reality. there are people leaving and there are young men leaving and we'll talk about the young men, but the research does show that it's not. there's, there is though, ⁓ then I want to call it. In my heart, I want to call it propaganda. ⁓ I probably shouldn't, but I may just say it this way. ⁓ there are PR campaigns within movements that often happen and, ⁓ man, Protestants do it too. Yeah. Right. And Protestants, like anyone can take numbers and twist those numbers to make them show what they want them to show. And, ⁓ man, religious folks typically are really pretty good at it. remember, ⁓ I remember not too long ago, the Mormon church, I mean, had a legitimate, put a ton of money into social media campaigns and they're still doing it. But I remember when it was like, I remember when they were just putting millions into it as a church before, honestly, before a lot of other people were. Right. And so it's a PR. It's a, it was a PR campaign. And so you see it coming from, ⁓ online influencers to a degree, some political commentators, ⁓ celebrities. ⁓ you, you see it. So you, you hear it. There are Tik TOK influencers that are, that are making, ⁓ the push. There are some priests that have done a really good job online and have a really good online. presence. ⁓ And they're getting millions of followers and they make it look really cool. Right. So I think those are some of the issues.

speaker-1: And there's a bigger picture issue here. You know, there was a time in the 50s, 60s, 70s where people identified strongly with their denomination. And so, you know, if they were Baptist, they knew they were Baptist, they knew why they were Baptist. their Presbyterian whatever, those lines have broken down within evangelicalism so that now, you know, we have the rise of the non-denominational churches ⁓ as the big force in evangelicalism, and someone doesn't really know or feel convictional about being Baptist or Methodist or something like that. And so, with that breakdown,

speaker-0: And wouldn't know the difference between.

speaker-1: It wouldn't know the difference. And so, with that breakdown, it makes it easier to make what would in the past be seen as a very massive jump to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

speaker-0: Yep, that's right. So, the jump seems shorter and it seems, like you're jumping to something totally different. I think first, I want to talk about for a second, like the rejection. What, what, what are they rejecting as they're heading over? Yeah.

speaker-1: What are they rejecting within evangelicalism?

speaker-0: Within evangelicalism. Yeah. And I think there's some frustration over the non-seriousness of it, the depth of it. I think in our world and what we've done with worship and lights and production... can be frustrating to some folks, entertainment driven piece of it versus a very traditional piece. It's like, I'm going to hear about God, not going to hear about how to, you know, seven ways to improve my finances or whatever the thing may be. So there's a frustration within the entertainment driven. I would say that there is a ⁓ femininity to church. that a lot of young men are pushing back against. There's a, they're, you know, a lot of young men are in the world are living in the place of, especially, I mean, just to say it this way, white conservative young men are living in the world as they are the enemy. Right? DEI protocols and whatever else, like they are the enemy and they're showing up at church. I was at a church this past Sunday and, I could have been in a whole bunch of churches this past Sunday and had this same feeling, but I looked around the room and there were no men singing. The people on stage were singing in a, in a, key that I, thank you, a key that I couldn't sing in and, and unfamiliar song, probably fresh out, never heard it before. And I look and there was women are singing and the men are just like kind of nodding. And I think there's a frustration with that. men, it's not just around worship, but just in general, there's a femininity in church worship that guys are kind of done with. so we're leaving.

speaker-1: Well, you know, the... we're coming out of evangelicalism was so deeply influenced by the seeker-sensitive movement. And so, the seeker-sensitive movement comes out in the 80s and 90s especially. And, you know, just to take one example, Rick Warren and Saddleback Church did a lot of great things for the gospel, but the mentality was, you know, at Saddleback they had this character called Saddleback Sam. this is the unchurched person profile that we're trying to reach. anything that is seen as a barrier, that's seen as too churchy, that might be a put-off to Saddleback Sam, that was taken out of the worship experience. And essentially, across the board, evangelical worship became it's supposed to feel like anything else in society. It's supposed to feel like a TED Talk. It's supposed to feel like a concert. It's supposed to feel like...

speaker-0: produce very shallow theology. ⁓ Anything that's offensive about God, they take out. The church I was at, he was preaching the story of Ananias and Sapphira, and he goes, man, I'm just nervous to preach this passage. I want to do it justice, but this isn't a fun passage to preach. And my thought, was like, I love preaching that passage. ⁓ It's a great passage because it tells us about the character and nature of of God in a beautiful way. And it shows how serious he is about holiness. ⁓

speaker-1: Yeah, but that's it, holiness. Like, anything that is holy, that is other, had to be kind of watered down in the evangelical worship service, and then, ⁓ if you're coming out of those experiences, and then you experience a Catholic or Orthodox mass, and everything is very other,

speaker-0: Yeah, very serious, very holy, very sacred. Feels very ancient.

speaker-1: Yeah, that feel. Yes, that gives you a feeling of being connected to something bigger than.

speaker-0: Ancient historic tradition.

speaker-1: So there's the attractiveness to a lot of

speaker-0: I do want to point out something. That a lot of ⁓ church planners in the past 10 years, because they have figured out that people are looking for this ancient past connection, that a lot of church planners just not out of conviction, but in their own form of seeker sensitive, of their own form of, ⁓ this is how I draw people in, have chosen to do things in a more traditional way to try to redeem the traditions that started when, mean, guess that started at Sojourn Community Church in Louisville, Kentucky, where the Genesis for a lot of that, that came from the first church I knew of that was, was trying to redeem those traditions and things like Ash Wednesday. uh, so it's really interesting to say, and that wasn't out of a, like, Hey, this is a conviction of this will draw people. This will connect. This is what people are looking for. So.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: There are a lot of guys and girls, and I say a lot, loosely, there are some, and it just seems high profile that are leaving. ⁓ Let's just talk for a second, though. I think it's important that we talk about what they're really going to. And I know we could take some of those other traditions and go after them, but the question was about Catholicism. So let's just talk about Catholicism and how it's different. I have only, I don't know a ton of Catholics. I have a few Catholic friends. I've gone to Catholic funerals. I go to Catholic fish fries. I got 97 problems, but fish ain't one of them. ⁓ you know, but that being said, like I didn't grow up in a place, right? I didn't grow up with people with a Catholic tradition. like breakdown Catholicism.

speaker-1: Yeah. Where I'm from is similar. Like, we didn't have a lot of native Catholics, but we have lakes where I'm from, and people would move down from Chicago and that kind of area, and they were, you know, the Catholic churches were filled with these Yankee transplants in my area. ⁓ you know, Catholicism is is interesting because, you know, it's such a huge part of our story as Protestants going back to Luther, going back to the Protestant Reformation, what they were leaving 500 years ago. ⁓ And there have been ⁓ some significant changes ⁓ to Catholicism after the Reformation, but those changes were more in terms of, I'd say, style rather than substance.

speaker-0: 500 years ago.

speaker-1: So, you you had during ⁓ one of the kind of things that caused the Protestant Reformation was indulgences, right? The selling of these certificates to get someone out of purgatory, and there were these huge abuses around that. They still do that. It still happens. It's still part of their theology. but they've learned to de-emphasize those things so that it's not on the front burner the way it was during Luther's time. ⁓ But really what I think it comes down to...

speaker-0: So they still believe that they can pray someone out of purgatory.

speaker-1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Or pay. Pay.

speaker-0: Pay, pay so that the priest will pay them. Get them out of. So the priest has to do it. The average Catholic.

speaker-1: Yes. I think the main differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, the real ⁓ crux of the issue is still justification. By faith alone ⁓ is what Protestants believe, ⁓ versus ⁓ justification ⁓ in the Catholic tradition. Two things, it's not by faith alone, it's by faith and works.

speaker-0: fatal.

speaker-1: ⁓ But they also define justification differently. So, justification for us is the declaration of God imputing the righteousness of Christ to us on the basis of our faith. And so, it's forensic. It's something that is declared by God, and it is done on the basis of the Word of God. ⁓ But in Catholicism, justification is defined as actually transformative. So, This is why you have to have works with faith, because ⁓ you're not truly justified until the justification actually starts to work. And it's a confusion between what we would siphon off as justification and sanctification. Those are two different things, right? We are declared righteous, and we have the status of being righteous before God, and then we're sanctified, were made righteous, but that doesn't actually earn us any, you know, righteous merit before God. ⁓ It's the result and evidence of our salvation. It's not part of our salvation in the actual declaration of our righteousness, but Catholicism puts those two things together and therefore

speaker-0: in his favor with God towards our salvation.

speaker-1: ⁓ in order to be justified, you have to earn it ⁓ at the end of the day. And so, you're baptized as a baby, and that washes away the sinful guilt of Adam, puts you in a neutral state, and then you spend the rest of your life trying to amass enough merit that you'll spend at least a minimum amount of time in purgatory, but even in purgatory. What are you doing? You're burning away the guilt of your sins in order to amass the merit that's needed in order to enter heaven. So, I mean, it's totally different understanding of salvation.

speaker-0: Any Bible verses?

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the main passage for Purgatory is in 2 Maccabees, which they believe is canonical, and we don't. In 2 Maccabees, there's a battle, and after the battle, Judas Maccabeus goes out into the field where the slain bodies are, and he finds on the bodies of some of these Jewish soldiers that have been killed these, like, amulets, these idolatrous amulets. So, He then prays and offers sacrifices so that the sin of idolatry of these dead men will be forgiven after their death. And from that comes the belief ⁓ that we can actually affect ⁓ what has happened to the dead in atone for the sins of people who have already died. That's the major... there's a few other like little verses in the New Testament that they'll kind of twist and read into, but that's the main place they find that. It's not biblical, and it's not even saying whether or not Judas Maccabeus was actually effective in atoning for the sins of these dead.

speaker-0: So the differences have a really heavy consequence and salvation or not. just quickly nuance, I'm sure there are Catholics, some Catholics that are believers, but they have to reject a huge part of the Catholic faith or be ignorant of it. And that's very possible. I've talked, you

speaker-1: or be ignorant of.

speaker-0: Catholics I've talked to, a lot of them don't know what they believe. I've also talked to lot of Protestants that don't know what they believe too. So there are plenty of Baptists that don't know what they believe. justification by faith alone is huge. Authority of scripture. We believe in the authority of scripture. They believe in the authority of scripture and tradition.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: And there's, there's a level of church tradition. You said something earlier about, you know, Catholicism changing some between, you know, 1500 and now like, and here's the reality. It's Catholicism in the church state. I mean, it's changed the entire time. Changed a lot before the reformation. Right. Right. And what do know about church history? So did the Anabaptists and you know, there's been a ton of change all over the board. ⁓ you know, the, the sacraments are a big deal. We obviously, when you talk about works and good works, a huge part of their good works are the sacraments. Right. And, ⁓ there's a, you know, by taking communion every week and there's a lot that goes into they're taking the Eucharist as they call it being the literal body and blood and only the priest can do that. There's a lot there, but that is the work. Yeah. It's the time, not talking about like being a good person or however you weigh that thing. That's a work going to confession. ⁓ is a work, ⁓ obviously the baptism and the catechism, those are works. but then you've got papal authority. Yeah. Explain papal authority.

speaker-1: So, you know, a lot of these elements you're bringing up kind of all go together ⁓ because in our mindset as Protestants, the church's authority is on the basis of the Word of God, right? As much as we are faithful to God's Word, we have authority when we preach, when we speak, when we teach. And if we are ever out of line with something that the Bible says, then we've got to get in line because it's the ultimate and final authority for what we believe and what we practice. The Bible is above the Church. It's just the opposite in Catholicism. The Church is the authority, the representative of Christ on earth, and they believe that the Bible has authority because the Church has accepted it. ⁓ Because, you know, as you look at the canonization process, there were some books that ⁓ some people wanted in the Bible that didn't make it. There are other books that did make it, and they were kind of on the bubble, and, you know, and they would say ⁓ that these books are the biblical books because the church decided they were the biblical books. we would say the church didn't decide what was the Word of God. The church simply recognized what was the Word of God and what wasn't. It has its own authority that we recognized as a church. so, you know, then you get down to what you said, papal authority. The church, the Catholic church, when I say the church right now, the church throughout its history has slowly accepted certain things as normal, as traditions, and by accepting them, they've become the practice, right? And so, ⁓ you know, infant baptism is one of those things. ⁓ So, you know, I have a book called The History of the Roman Catholic Church by Thomas Bakkenkater, who was a professor at Xavier University in Cincinnati. So, you know, Catholic as all get out. And he says in that book, ⁓ in the early church it's quite obvious that they practice believers' baptism in the New Testament in the early church, but as the church slowly accepted infant baptism and accepted this theology behind baptism that the Catholics believe, ⁓ that's okay ⁓ because the church accepted it. It doesn't matter what the Bible says.

speaker-0: Catholic, right? Yeah.

speaker-1: about baptism. It doesn't matter what the examples in the Bible, ⁓ it's the very fact that the church with its authority accepted this tradition that makes it authoritative because of the authority of the church. Now, the pope then being the head of the church, ⁓ the vicar of Christ, the representative of Christ on earth, therefore has a unique authority as the head of the church to make these types of decisions. so, ⁓ of course, know, Catholics don't believe everything the pope says has infallible authority, but when the pope speaks ⁓ from his throne, ex cathedra, ⁓ then it has this special authority. And popes will use this very sparingly, but every now and then they will put out a document that is supposed to be infallible in its authority, and that authority comes from him being the head of the church on earth. ⁓ And as the church has authority and it's all stored up in him as the head, ⁓ then he can make these kinds of pronouncements, and they are what they are. Now, of course, over time, popes have contradicted one another. ⁓ And so, they have to kind of play these games because they can't say that ⁓ popes before them were wrong because they spoke infallibly. But it's kind of like when the prophets in the Charismatic Movement will say, you know, Hillary Clinton is going to win the election. And then when she loses, they'll say, well, actually, I meant, you know, kind of they have to redefine what was being said. And so, the popes have done that as well.

speaker-0: Right. So we would go, yeah, there's no pastor that has authority over the Bible, but it needs to be under the Bible. Then you've got the different things with the Mary. ⁓

speaker-1: That's right. Mariolatry, as we would call it.

speaker-0: Marian dogma or whatever. So, They have made an idol out of Mary. There's a Mary worship. And again, this is not going to be true for every Catholic. But particularly within ⁓ this South and Central American Catholicism is huge. And that's not the only place in the world, I think, but I know it is huge there. So, they would look at Mary, say she was sinless.

speaker-1: Some would say she was a co-redemptress with Jesus, that somehow her life ⁓ was atoning in some ways. ⁓ And a lot of this comes quite naturally out of the different Paganisms that have been incorporated into the Catholic Church over history. Paganism ⁓ has female gods, right? Goddesses. that ⁓ a lot of women especially looked to traditionally for, you know, female issues to be solved. And so, Catholicism has come in with this kind of overlay of Mary ⁓ for women especially, and this has been quite explicit, especially in South America. ⁓ In the Andes Mountains, there was a goddess called Pachamama. It was a female goddess, and they quite literally replaced Pachamama with ⁓ Mary to the point that ⁓ during the previous pope, Francis, he was gifted from South America an idol of Pachamama, and he brought it into the Vatican, and then some Italian Catholics were so offended by this explicit idolatry in the Vatican that somebody came in and took it out and then threw it in the fountain in St. Peter's Square, and so then they just put it in the museum instead of in the actual cathedral. ⁓

speaker-0: Wow, that's wild. So there's a worship of Mary. There's also a prayer praying to saints. Pray to Mary, pray to other saints. And obviously we would reject that. There is only one way that you can pray. And that is to God the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit. But you're praying, either way, if you want to pray the Holy Spirit, pray to Jesus, pray It's all going... It is God who is answering those prayers.

speaker-1: Yes. Yes. That's we are all saints, so we wouldn't make a differentiation. We are all holy ones who are believers.

speaker-0: That's right. We then also should bring out the priesthood of believers because you say that. Where in the Catholic Church, they would say that we have to, you you have to go to the priest to confess those sins so that he can go to God for you. And we believe that you, when you've placed your faith and trust in Christ and repented of your sins, that God will hear and answer those prayers. You don't need a priest. are the priest. And Christ did that for us. We no longer have to go to a priest. Christ made a way that all of us can communicate.

speaker-1: And ⁓ that goes, back to justification. We believe we can approach God directly because we are righteous, completely righteous and sinless before God on the basis of Jesus' merit, but because they believe you're still a work in progress. You don't know if you're going to be righteous or unrighteous, you're doing your best, then you have no right to approach God directly, you need the priests and the saints and all of those intermediaries to go to God for you because you don't have that righteousness.

speaker-0: necessary. is a wildly different religion and it's not like, this is a subtle shift, this is a major shift. So, I just want to go back to just drive this home of what you said about justification. The question is, and this is an eternal question, right? This says eternal ramifications, whether you spend eternity in heaven with Jesus or in hell separated from the goodness and love of God, right? Experience in the

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: wrath and it is how our sinners made right before a holy God.

speaker-1: That's right.

speaker-0: We would just believe that as soon as you bring in works of any kind into the equation, whether it's a Roman Catholicism, or it's Jehovah's Witnesses, whether it's ⁓ Mormonism, or it's some sort of ⁓ therapeutic moral deism, like whatever it is, as soon as you bring works into the equation, you've lost the gospel.

speaker-1: That's right.

speaker-0: The gospel is simply while we were sinners, Christ died for us. It is Christ's atonement on the cross for us that saves us. Nothing else. Amen. And so, Josh, what would you say to the young man or young woman who's thinking about leaving, ⁓ Protestantism, leaving the evangelical world to go to Roman Catholicism? What would you say?

speaker-1: I would say you need to dig into the theological substance of what Protestants believe, historic Protestants believe. We will agree all day long that there's a lot of goofy stuff going on in evangelicalism that does not need to be happening. That said, don't just trade one unbiblical worship style for another unbiblical worship style. ⁓ Don't choose what church you're going to go to based on worship style at all. Choose it based on, the theological content of what this church believes ⁓ accord with Scripture? And if you don't know your Bible and you don't know Scripture, then it's really easy to, for the literally the bells and smells,

speaker-0: Cheers.

speaker-1: to confuse you emotionally. ⁓ And so, take a step back, dig into God's Word, look at what it actually says, like you said, especially about the gospel. That's the most important aspect.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Your, your answer to your frustration isn't abandoning the gospel. Yeah. I mean, it's a live Satan. Satan's out to kill still in Detroit, just because you get goosebumps or get, know, like I go to the drag race. ⁓ we used to go to the Atlanta motor drag race out here. Those big top fuel dragsters. I'd I'd get chill bumps. wasn't going, is the Holy spirit. This should be what I worship. just because you get, get goosebumps. Does it mean.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's right.

speaker-0: It doesn't mean it's right. And so you have to weigh it ⁓ by scripture. Don't abandon scripture. I mean, the real reality is that you should desire deeper discipleship, richer ⁓ understanding of theology, richer worship. Church history is so important. And of course, that's a hard topic, but like learning and reading church.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: ⁓ history. I would just say to churches, like, there ought to be a level of reverence. we as churches should strive for that. There's things that we can learn from this. ⁓ think the main thing that churches have to understand that we've got to have strong convictions about, is that the worship service is for the glory of God.

speaker-1: That's right.

speaker-0: and it's not for the drawing of people but the the glory of God. Well, in closing today, what wisdom do you have for us?

speaker-1: ⁓ If I could give one additional piece of wisdom, I'd say beware of also what I would call evangelical neo-Catholicism, and that is the new perspective movement and the influence of N.T. Wright. He essentially, and those with him, have ⁓ essentially surrendered to the Catholic definition of justification and there are a lot of evangelical churches that are ⁓ abandoning justification by faith alone on the other end through the influence of people like Wright. So, you know, watch out on both sides.

speaker-0: Yeah. And, and here's what I would say. Here's my piece of wisdom. like there, there is a lot to learn from other world religions and understanding Catholicism. there's, there's, there's a lot that we can study to know, Hey, it, you know, is this, is this a Jehovah witness idea? Is this a Mormon idea? But the best way to do that is by knowing what you believe by reading and knowing the Bible. That's right. You don't really have to study all of the other religions if you know yours. Understanding the Bible should be the starting place. Thank you so much for joining us for Wisdom for the Wilderness. Again, I want to thank you for listening. If you have any questions, can email them to wisdom at overlandchurch.org. will eventually answer them. I want to thank you so much for joining us today. Go and be blessed.

speaker-1: Amen.