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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Should I tell the story about this morning, our daughter, the way down the stairs?
That was so cute.
I'm like, I'm not over that yet
So this we're definitely gonna have to have a talk with her about that.
I know we will.
But this morning I was sitting on the couch with our youngest, and then our other daughter comes down the stairs like very quiet, and then at the very bottom step, I hear her jump and go, GI
Which is like what she says when she does karate and do like a karate chop basically.
And then she peers around the corner and she's like, Woof, good.
I'm glad it's just you, mom.
And I was like, who did you think was gonna be down here?
She goes, I thought there might be bad guys because I thought you guys were still in bed.
So I was just gonna go see.
if there was bad guys in the living room.
And I was like, and you were gonna karate chop them?
She's like, yeah, I know karate.
But she's like, but I'm so glad.
I'm so glad it's not bad, guys.
Yeah.
And like just looked so relieved and then like came and snuggled on my lap for like 30 minutes.
But it was just the purest thing that she thought.
She would be able to protect us with her karate, which she is still very new and learning.
And I just thought it was so cute.
But we will talk to her about, you know
If you actually think there's a bad guy in the house, maybe wake us up.
Don't maybe don't try and attack them.
Be the one to try and attack them.
And that there won't
be a bad guy in our house.
I do appreciate the confidence in her abilities.
She was so confident.
Like the way she got down the stairs, it was as if like
So did you hear her coming down the stairs?
I could hear her coming down the stairs very quietly, and then I heard the jump and I saw the chop and heard the kiye, and then I saw her look and
Just the relief that washed her face.
Like she genuinely thought she was about to go fight someone.
That's so sweet and sad.
It was so cute and so sad at the same time.
So we did already have some of those conversations, but
I just said to her, I love your confidence and the idea that you want to protect our family, but it's actually that's not your job.
So it was very cute.
I'm going to be taking her to karate tonight.
So maybe you'll have a conversation with her on the way.
On the way to karate, see.
See if she remembers.
She was also very deliriously tired.
Yeah, right.
Uh honestly maybe it is because of the time change.
Daylight savings time.
She at she well she even said I didn't know if it was morning or not.
So she was even like she wasn't even sure if it was like the middle of the night and she was doing this
So even that part was sweet.
Like she's like, I didn't even know if it was morning yet.
'Cause we keep it pretty dark in the mornings, especially upstairs.
The windows are all closed and it is dark
right now.
So anyway, yeah, it was just very cute.
But also obviously something we're gonna talk to her about.
But just love these little moments like that with kids.
It's like
It just reminds you how little they are and, you know, how much they need you.
So Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Anyway, what do you have for me today?
Okay.
Well, this episode
Originally I was kind of bored of the idea of doing this one.
But then the more I did research or was finding the research on it, the more I found it interesting.
And I actually felt the same way with this and the two coming after this.
So
It's good.
Foreshadowing.
Foreshadowing.
So today's episode is on teaching our children to be kind.
But not getting walked over.
Right.
Essentially how to not turn our children into people pleasers where they just do things to be nice, but not
They don't really have a backbone.
And I don't know where I saw this or even if I came up with myself.
I don't even know.
But the idea of children having this compassionate backbone.
So they have a backbone.
They're
Strong and resilient, they stand up for what they believe in, but they're also compassionate and kind to others.
I kind of like that idea of a compassionate backbone.
Yeah, I like that too.
So we kick so many conversations off with our kids by saying be nice and honestly I even find myself saying this to our girls sometimes.
Like be nice to each other.
Why are you doing this?
Yeah
But as we'll discuss today, there's a growing body of thought and evidence that this might not be the best advice.
So from your perspective as a professional.
what is the potential downside of raising a child who is above all else nice?
Yeah, if above all else they're nice.
I think the downside is that they don't ask themselves what do I need in this moment and how do I protect myself or take care of myself?
And it's not that we want to raise a self-centered child that's different
But if we're just constantly nice, we're constantly putting others' needs over our own, it inevitably will lead to us getting burnt out, exhausted, and it's not actually nice.
I like to say that there's a big difference between being kind, like I want to do something for someone else, and I want to help them out, and I have that compassionate background.
like you were saying and being nice, which could just mean like I'm just doing it so that you don't get mad at me and you like me and you're happy with me and it's actually not for like
altruistic reasons, it's really just to keep the peace and keep everybody happy and content.
And so that is the major downfall to raising kids who just only think about other people's needs.
is that they end up doing stuff not because they want to or because they're genuinely like this kind, compassionate person who cares, but because they are trying to keep everybody else happy.
And eventually that does lead to
them burning out because it's impossible.
You can't go through life keeping everybody happy.
Yeah.
And I mean that might not even be all parents and kids trying to raise children who are kind or nice
to others because I feel like one of the things now and I mean this is the same across all generations I think but people will say that kids are entitled now.
So I feel like there's a lot of people who say, well, we do things for ourselves and we try to make sure we're happy and we have our own needs met and don't care about others.
Do you think there's a balance between, like let's say, our generation?
So who are now the parents, right?
Who grew up being told be nice, be nice, be nice, and a lot of punishments and stuff like that.
So we kind of all learned how to put other people above ourselves
Like a lot of us.
A lot, maybe, of parents.
And then but that's continued into parenting and now you're kind of people pleasing, but with your kids.
like you're having a hard time setting boundaries with your kids.
You're having a hard time letting them be disappointed.
You feel really guilty all the time.
And the child becomes more entitled, let's say.
Not that I love that word.
We've done a whole episode on that
But it's because you are people pleasing with your child.
Like you have a really hard time allowing them to feel disappointment and coaching them through what it actually means to be kind and
Like assertive at the same time.
I mean I think sometimes with all areas of life.
There's many different shades.
It's a spectrum.
Yeah, of course.
Uh
Because we know plenty of people who are our age that aren't like that though.
So I don't know.
I wouldn't say that all parents our age are try like people pleasing to our age.
But I d I wonder if a lot of people who struggle with permissive parenting, aka giving their kids everything and not really letting them struggle, let's say.
and have the kids that might be label entitled.
I wonder if they were raised to be so nice and kind and and they wanna break the cycles from how they were raised to be that way, but then it ends up being that I mean sometimes, because I would also say that's apparent now
who was raised very strictly could also do the same thing to make sure that it's not so that's why I just feel like what you're trying to say doesn't make sense to me.
It doesn't
Because there's too many possibilities that lead to the same result.
One way that leads to that result.
Of many.
Yeah, that's fair.
So why is it important to even consider raising a kind child?
Why does that matter?
Yeah, why does that even matter?
Because I feel like, you know what, I'm reading through these questions again and I'm like, I don't feel as though we're getting to the root of why it's even important to raise a child who is kind with
boundaries or with a backbone?
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And I think it's a type of question we should all be asking ourselves with our discipline.
Like why does this matter?
Why do we want to raise a kind child, right?
And how are we going about it?
I think we want to raise kind children because I mean there's probably two reasons.
Like one of them maybe is a little bit more selfish.
Like we
see our children as kind of a reflection of us.
And so when our children are out in the world, we do want to see our children treat each other with respect and kindness and be good to others, right?
Because that also is a reflection of the way that we parent them.
And I think that
if most parents were honest with themselves and they would say that there is a piece of that that they want others to see that their children are kind, right?
Yeah, sure.
But I think more importantly and
We shouldn't raise our kids based on what we want other people to think of us.
But more importantly for our own children, I think we want to raise them in a way that they can
be well adapted to the world around them and they know how to take care of people and they know how to love others and be generous and all of those things because that will
help them contribute well to society someday.
It will help them in their own personal relationships.
It will help them have healthier relationships throughout their life.
And if they learn how to be kind, that's something that will always be part of who they are.
And it will always
be meaningful and important in their life.
I think if they learn how to be kind.
So being kind doesn't just mean they're kind to others.
It means that they're kind to themselves.
It means that they expect kindness from others and the relationships that they have.
So overall I think we want to raise kind kids because
it will serve them well throughout their life and be very positive for them.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think partially it does.
I would say there's probably a subset of the population that would disagree and say, yeah, it doesn't always pay to be nice though
Or kind, because the real world doesn't allow for you to always be kind.
Right, and that's where we'll talk about the backbone part, right?
What I found interesting in the research though was the idea of
So again, every episode we will probably bring up the idea of the authoritative parent, the parent who is high in demandingness, but also high in warmth, because what it allows for our children to do is
develop themselves into children who believe that they can do things on their own.
They have the ability to work through problems, solve problems.
They have the ability to relate well with others and actually create
meaningful relationships with others.
And what I was finding in the research was when it started from that young age, it just helps build the positive internal working models so they can see the world more positively in general
And because of that, they can actually, let's say, make more change or have better relationships, are less likely to have mental health issues, all those kinds of things because of
the way they're raised when they're young and that also leads to them being more kind and compassionate to others in their struggles and they can empathize.
Yeah, I think it makes total sense.
I mean we talk about this every episode that the relationship is really where the kids learn the most from.
But I like what you mentioned about it's the lens that they view the world from, right?
So when we treat them with kindness.
But we also hold our boundaries and we feel comfortable doing that.
We teach our children that that is how they can kind of look at the world.
I kind of think about kids who grow up in trauma and or even like really, really harsh
parents and they grow up and they kind of learn to see the world through the lens of their parent as well, right?
And so they might learn to see the world as like, oh, everyone's out to get me or everyone is
bad and I'm always a victim or whatever it is, however they hear their parents talk about the world.
But there is something beautiful about imagining your children watching you
interpret people with generosity and compassion and do kind things for others and they kind of learn that, oh wow, you know, the world is a place where I can be kind to others and I can
see someone saying something that's not very nice, set my boundaries with them, but also interpret their behavior as not necessarily like out to get me or that they're a horrible person, like they're having a hard time.
So I don't know, I think that's really beautiful that we're shaping the worldview really of our children and also meaningful to us too.
Mm-hmm.
And again for because I think
What you're saying sounds sweet and nice and all that and probably most of the listeners that we have will agree with that, but I think there will, again, will be a subset of the
the population in the world that says, you know, it does not pay to be nice.
It does not benefit you to just be nice all the time.
You will get walked over.
Yeah.
So I just think the other positive aspects of teaching your child to be kind and being that authoritative parent that's the child's what they call the secure base.
The person they can trust and rely on, it helps that children understand that the world is a place that they can actually trust people in
Everyone is not out to get them.
They're worthy of love, all that stuff, but that ends up having positive outcomes later in life for basically every aspect of their life.
It's not just that they're kind.
it provides a myriad of different benefits to them.
So I think that's an important thing that we have to remember.
It's not just about Yeah, and I I'm just talking about kindness because that was kind of what our focus was
for that question.
But yes, you're absolutely right.
Raising kids with that type of parenting where you're warm, you're kind, but you also have the structure and the boundaries, it does a lot more than just raising your kids to be kind to others, right?
It helps them in every single aspect of their life.
And I agree.
You know it's so funny as you were talking, I was thinking about this.
Someone told me recently that Scott hasn't been as skeptical and hasn't been pushing back as hard in recent episodes.
So uh I'm sure they'll appreciate the little pushback there.
'Cause uh someone said, I think you've got Scott like Scott is so on board that sometimes I feel like he's not asking the same skeptical questions he used to ask.
And I was like, Oh, I'll I'll have to bring that up to him and
That is funny.
See if you can channel your skeptic and I know you have it because I mean even if you're not skeptical, you know exactly how skeptics think and talk and the questions that they might have.
It's going to be, I would say, the stereotypical dad male figure that's likely the most I can get into that mindset because
Because I know a lot of people like that.
So and anyways, that's completely uh beside the point.
Yeah
So I want to get into some more practical things here.
So a listener of ours had a seven-year-old whose friend always wants to play with their one special toy and it was causing anxiety in their child.
And I can honestly see this sometimes in our middle daughter where she will do something not because it's right, but because she doesn't want, let's say, her little sister to blow up at her.
Which hey I I do also understand, but this seems like a similar situation where it's causing their child to have anxiety and like just allow
this other kid to play with their special toy.
So what are some actual words we can give that child to help them set a boundary kindly but firmly in that moment?
Yes.
Even if it results in some tears.
Yes, I love this.
And I think this speaks to your question earlier of like what are some red flags that your child's starting to people please?
And we have to look at, just to back it up a little bit, you have to look at the temperament of your child as well.
So some kids, especially our more sensitive kids, they are going to be more prone to people pleasing.
And the reason why our sensitive kids are more prone to people pleasing isn't even necessarily the way we discipline them.
Sometimes it is
But other times it's that they are able to understand other people's emotions so deeply and so quickly that they know if they say something or they do something
It might result in the person sitting across from them to be upset or angry or sad.
And because are sensitive kids
take on those emotions so easily, it makes them more likely to people please because they don't want to make someone else
sad or unhappy.
And so you come back to the situation, you have the seven-year-old with their special toy that, like at least in our house, your special toys you don't have to share.
Like that's up to you if you want to share it or not.
They don't have to share, but they are because they don't want this other child to feel sad.
Right.
And we've had this same situation happen in our house too
And so what they really need to know from the parent, and these kids definitely need our coaching around it, is that it is okay to set this boundary and say, this is my special toy, I don't want to share it.
And it's also okay if that other child is sad about it.
Yeah.
It is okay for you as a parent to coach your child through that, especially the ones that you know are going to be more prone to just like trying to keep everybody happy and walking on eggshells around their siblings or their friends
they actually probably more than any other child, they really need that coaching.
And so what I would do and what I pretty much have done in that situation is I would go to my child and probably pull them aside or talk to them before a play date.
And I might say something like, hey
Today, so-and-so is gonna come over and I know every time they come over, they always want to play with your special toy.
And I I know I can see in your eyes that you
You don't want them to play with your special choice.
Do I have that right?
I'll just make sure I have that right.
And they'd probably be like, yeah, but like they're gonna be so sad.
Like, okay, so we have a few options here.
First we can
Make sure we keep your special toy in your room and maybe just don't play in your room that way.
Anything that's special you don't want your friend to touch or play with, that stays in your room.
And your room is just reserved for just your safe people.
So like just us, your siblings
That's it.
Or we can bring it out and that's fine, but we can let them know that that's your special toy and you're allowed to not share that toy.
Any any other toys they can play with, but not that one.
How does that feel?
And then they might go like, oh, well, they're gonna be so sad
You know, they want it.
I'd be like, and that's okay.
Like it's okay for them to be sad.
Doesn't mean you have to share it.
Lots of times you might want to share your toys
But it's okay if they're sad.
And what that does, like coaching them through that, and sometimes depending on the child, I might even say like you can imagine giving their sad.
Like some kids love a visualization, giving their sad back to them.
Like their sad is their emotion and you don't have to make it better.
Like you don't have to fix it.
Does that work for some kids?
Yeah.
Some little like seven.
Yeah, I guess seven year olds.
Seven.
Like we're talking about seven here, right?
So I'd say like seven to ten, they can almost start.
Like I sometimes will even say, like, imagine your friend's emotions coming at you like a ball, right?
And you catch the ball.
And you give it back to them.
And like they're allowed to be sad, but you don't have to keep holding their sad.
That's not your ball to hold on to, right?
Like you can pass it back to them.
And sometimes that's helpful, sometimes not.
A lot of times it's more helpful for the parent because they need to remember the same kind of message, right?
But I would definitely do a lot of coaching around it.
And if I
was a parent of a child who I knew was more sensitive and I was starting to see things like that where you can see a shift in your child's posture, body language.
You can see that they just like give
people all their stuff, even if they might not necessarily want to.
If you notice that your child's starting to lie to you about little things and
when you kind of get curious about it, you realize that they're lying just because they're worried that you're gonna be not happy with whatever the truth is.
I'd just be really mindful of the way you respond and responding with sensitivity
And kind of coaching them through it.
Like even saying like, hey, it's okay, you don't have to lie to me about this, because I can handle your feelings.
And I can handle
If you tell me something that you think is gonna make me sad or upset.
Like that's okay.
Those are my feelings.
You don't have to not tell me things because you're worried about how I'm gonna react.
That's really important for those kids.
My concern with that is
We can say those words, but then in practice, if they actually start telling us things without lying, and then we actually I still think it's the default, especially if you're a tired parent, to just get upset.
Yeah, totally.
Right, so then is that not you have to be able to follow through on it, right?
Yeah.
Well it's hard to remember that potentially too.
But uh let's say you say to your child
I'm just picturing a situation.
This almost happened in our house the other day, but I caught it, where your child, let's say, spills a cup of milk all over the table and they tell you that they didn't do it.
But you're like, come on, like clearly I know you did this, right?
Yeah.
I feel like there's two types of way you can respond.
Like you can get angry and be like, you're lying to me.
How could you lie to me?
You know, we don't lie in this family and get really upset with them.
Like you go clean that up.
Which hey, I feel like we've probably been there.
Or you can take a moment to try and regulate yourself and be like, why are they lying to me
Well, the main reason a child's probably lying in this situation is because they want to preserve their relationship with you.
They want to keep you happy with them.
And they can't think through that obviously you're gonna figure out that they were the one who spilt the milk, right?
And so then you can take a more relationship-centered approach where you're like, hey, I saw that the milk was spilled and I'm sure that that was you because you were the only one in there.
Who could have spelt the milk?
I want you to feel like you can tell me the truth about these things because telling the truth in our family is really important.
And I want us to be able to work through these things together.
So let's go clean this up and let's get the milk all cleaned up.
You made a mistake, that's fine.
But next time I want you to know that you can come to me first.
Why are you laughing?
I'm just remembering what happened this weekend.
And her middle daughter who is maybe used to be more like that where she would lie.
I mean she still has that from time to time too now.
But this weekend she literally spilt milk and before we even knew about it, all we hear her say is mistakes are good.
And then we're like what?
What what do you mean?
She's like, yeah, mistakes are good
And then we see that she spilt milk on the counter.
As she was trying to pour herself a glass of milk, she spilt a bunch on the counter.
Like she already had the cloth in her hand.
By the time she said mistakes are good and I looked over, she was already like about three.
Okay.
I didn't catch that part.
I thought she hit I was
I heard it and I was like, What?
Looking over and I thought she had just spilt it.
No, she had already had the cloth in her hand by the time she said that.
I guess she spilt it right by the cloth drawer anyway.
But yeah.
But you know, it's so funny is like the difference between her, who now knows like mistakes are good.
If you make a mistake, you're still gonna be held and maybe this goes to the
what we're talking about too, you're still gonna be held accountable.
Yeah.
Like we're gonna be kind to you, but we're still gonna be firm.
Like you still have to clean up your milk that you spilt, right?
But we're not gonna
get furious at you for making a mistake.
Like that's just human.
And it's so funny because just the day before our younger daughter had lied to me about spilling.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And I had to go through pretty much the same script I just said with her so that she knew it wasn't mad, but we're on the same team and we had to clean it up together and we did.
And then the next day that that happens and I'm like, this is the progress that we want to be seeing, right?
And that is
A two year age difference.
A two year age difference.
And that's modeling being kind.
It's pretty funny.
But firm.
And that's what we want our kids to do.
Right?
Like that's the milk is such a good example of like we're kind, mistakes are okay, they're human, but we're still firm.
You still have to like fix your mistake, right?
You still have to clean up after yourself.
And that like to your real world question, that is the balance of like just being kind or just being firm.
Like we kids need both.
Right.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unspeakable.
safe touch and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak
sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
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robot unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
So you did mention role-playing which I had
something in here about that and it was actually on the research of assertiveness training specifically.
It often mentions role playing as a key strategy for building skills.
Yeah.
Which for some kids is easier than others.
I also think that this can be role playing specifically can sometimes be awkward for people, for families.
I'm not gonna name any names.
Yeah, not to name names.
Don't don't name names, Jess.
Seriously.
For you.
It's really rude.
You know I live for a roleplay.
I know you do, so it's not awkward for you.
How can parents initiate role-playing scenarios at home that feel natural and fun rather than like a weird
corporate training exercise.
Because that's how they feel to me.
So now I feel like we have to take it back a little bit because we've been talking a lot about kindness, right?
And how we want our kids to be kind.
Yeah.
And we've been talking about the firmness or the assertiveness
But now I think we're going more into the assertiveness territory, right?
Uh I mean it's it's kind of both, but yeah.
We're kind of bringing in how you can stay kind and be assertive.
I would argue that they're two kind of separate skills that you have
Yes.
But they go together.
Like you can be assertive and angry, right?
But we're gonna be in kind and assertive.
And that's where the corporate training comes in because yeah, so many people in the workplace even, even I
you know, as an im as a boss and you too, we've had to learn how to be assertive in a kind way because a lot of us are very good at being kind or very good at being assertive.
I feel like you and I were kind of on both ends.
Like you were very good at being assertive and I was very good at being kind, but sometimes we would struggle to blend them both together.
Right?
And each in our unique ways.
So when we're doing this with our children, I'm thinking of an example like let's say your child has a friend struggle at school and they want to talk to that friend about what happened.
It's not bullying, it's just a struggle
And so we almost take you take on almost that corporate structure at home where you're like, okay, let's talk through what you're gonna do and how you're gonna say it.
Right.
And we wanna keep in mind that
You want to be kind to your friend.
Like you still love this friend.
You still care for them.
Maybe they said something that hurt your feelings or whatever.
But you also want to be assertive and clear about what you're trying to say.
And then I might say to our daughter, let's say if she was having that struggle with a friend and we have said this.
Let's just play it out.
Let's pretend.
I'll be so and so, you be this person, let's pretend we're on the playground together.
Yeah, I mean I guess I have joined in on some.
I feel like ever since she was in kindergarten, that's what we do.
She comes home with a friend struggle, which you know, they start early on because you have all the
These kids with immature brains being friends with each other.
There's always going to be a friendship struggle.
But even sometimes to the kids, I'll be like, I'll be you so that I can model to them how they might have the conversation.
You be your friend, because they know what their friend would say
And let's work it out and then we'll switch roles.
Yep.
I think we've done it where I play the friend and you play, let's say, our daughter.
I do the very dramatic
Like over bl I think of Michael Scott in the one episode of The Office where he wants to pretend like he's getting fired.
Yes.
And then he just goes
Well I mean that's even better when the And then the kids think it's funny and everything too.
Your parents.
Imagine being a kid and your parents are role-playing out your friend struggle, but like in a respectful way, not teasing you
Not like making you feel insecure, but being like, hey, here's one way you could respond.
But I even think about myself, like the times I've felt most empowered to have the most difficult conversations, I have practiced having those conversations ahead of time.
Right?
We've
practiced it, even you and I have like gone through, okay, well what would you say?
And then what would you say now?
That kind of thing.
And it just makes you feel
prepared to have hard conversations.
And so I do think that we can coach our kids through that too.
Yeah, for sure.
Can I ask you a question?
Of course.
When we say assertive, because we're talking about being kind and being assertive
What does assertive mean to you?
Being clear in how you actually feel.
Yeah.
It's, I think, often confused with aggressive.
versus a sort of in the way I view it is you're just being clear.
This is how I feel.
This is what I think of the about the situation.
That's more how I
Think assertive is and then aggressive is if you just start getting angry or you're condescending or you're doing any of those things.
So can you give us an example of a time when you've
Coached our kids to be kind and assertive, or when you yourself have had to be kind and assertive.
I don't like role-playing, so no.
You have to role play, just give an example of a time that he's going to be.
Can I think of any?
Not at the moment, but I know I have had lots of conversations about that.
Probably with our oldest daughter and some friendship struggles or issues.
I mean, for whatever reason this year it feels like there's less, but
let's say last year there were maybe a few more and I would help her through some of the challenges she was having with kids who weren't necessarily being nice to her and just helping her just speak her mind a little bit more, speak up.
I think about it even in terms of our own children in our house.
Let's say I was coaching the girls through this on the weekend because they were all fighting over the same Barbies that they wanted to play with.
And our one of them
was yelling, like, yelling at her sisters, being like, you can't play, you can't be in my room, you're not allowed to be here
And it was assertive, but it wasn't kind, right?
And it was didn't have a kind tone of voice whatsoever.
And then her sisters were very sad.
and upset and they didn't know I could hear this whole thing, so then the one sister goes, Well then I'm telling mom and I'm gonna tell her that you were the meanest
ever and bop bop bop b like she starts going on and then the other sister goes, well then I'm gonna tell mom and I'm gonna tell her to like
And then it just started getting like a bit critical of each other, like, you always say that and duh and it was getting mean.
So then I came in.
But I wanted to first see.
I always try and see if they can work it out.
But it was clear they were not gonna work that one out.
Where was I for this?
Oh, it was on Friday you were working.
And the kids were also exploding at each other.
So then I walked in and I actually had this conversation with them about I love that you girls are standing up for yourselves.
And speaking your mind, I think that's great.
But the way you're doing it is hurting each other's feelings.
Like look, each of you are crying.
That is not the way that you want to talk to your siblings.
Yeah.
And I will always say, I know you all love each other very, very, very much, right?
It might not always feel like it, but you do.
And so we do want to speak to each other with kindness and love.
But you can still be assertive
Right.
So then I had each person, I said, let's try it again.
I had each kid try again with some coaching of how they could express.
And again, that's another way you can coach your kids through it.
It's like you can still stand up for yourself and say you can't play with my Barbies.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But you can't do that and tear someone you love down at the same time.
So then we all we all said it again.
There was some repair and then we decided it was best to just play by ourselves for a little bit, which was fine
But those are the moments I think that really shape how your child learns how to deal with conflict.
It's not just be nice to your sister.
It's yes, speak your need, but do it in a way
That still shows respect and and kindness.
Yeah, one thing that I read on kindness versus people pleasing that I thought was interesting was
That real kindness comes from an emotional abundance.
So you give it freely without needing anything back.
You don't need to be paid back for it.
and basically your cup is full versus people pleasing, it comes out of a need of the validation or needing others to tell you you're okay.
Yeah.
and essentially giving them an empty cup and hoping someone will fill it for you if you're compliant enough or nice enough.
I love that.
Yeah.
So yeah, I just thought that was a nice comparison between the two and for like the kids in this situation.
I mean they weren't people pleasing in that situation, but then you have to think about it in terms of the real kindness.
Like it's okay to stand up for yourself.
It's okay to stand up for yourself because I think it can be so easy.
Especially when I talk about body safety, sometimes this comes up.
It can be so easy to just be like, yeah, teach your child to say, stop, don't touch me, or stop, you know, I don't want you to hug me or whatever.
And those are important.
It's good to teach them to be assertive.
And like let's say they're saying it to their 80-year-old grandma who's very loving and just wants to give them a hug.
We can also teach them how to do it in a way that's respectful to others.
I think it's okay to teach your kids how to respect others.
Mostly they'll learn that through the way that you talk to other people and the way that they mo like you model that to them.
Yeah
But sometimes I will say to the kids, try again.
Like try saying that to me again in a more respectful way.
Or try saying that to your sister again
in a more respectful way.
And I think that's what you're trying to get at is that it doesn't have to be people pleasing or being harsh and aggressive all the time.
Right?
We can
stand up for ourselves but still be respectful and kind um at the same time.
Well and there's also I think this gendered dynamic here too.
Yeah.
Like let's be real.
And the studies I was looking at also suggested that pro social behavior, so being nice, kind, whatever, having focusing on the relationship.
but not necessarily in a healthy way, is often stereotyped as a female trait, and girls can be socially penalized for being assertive, while boys
might be discouraged from being openly empathetic or kind.
How can we as parents then consciously push back against these ingrained gender stereotypes for both our sons and daughters?
Because let's say we only have daughters.
But yeah, I would like for them to be assertive and speak their mind.
While being kind, obviously, too.
But I think this it should be the same kind of both ways.
It's almost easier for us to be like
Like we almost have to coach our kids to be more assertive a lot of the time, right?
Unless it's like with their siblings, of course.
Because as little girls, being kind is very much celebrated and is
you know, more of an expectation almost of them.
Whereas for little boys, I see this 'cause I see a lot of boys in my practice that their aggressive behavior for a time
has almost just been passed off as like, well, they're just a boy, right?
They're just a little boy.
Yeah.
And so it's almost like seen as acceptable, I think, to be assertive and aggressive at times.
Right.
Both are okay.
Yeah
Whereas they may might not be trained as much to also be respectful and kind, because their aggressive is a little bit
more socially seen as appropriate, right?
So I do think that it's very important if we're raising boys and for everyone who's raising a boy to also
Teach them the kindness as well, right?
Let them be assertive.
That's important.
Teach them how to be assertive, but make sure that you're also doing those role plays where you're teaching them how to be kind.
And how to be respectful.
The way I see it, assertiveness and kindness are both positive traits that can and should be taught.
It's not like they're necessarily born with either one.
I think you can be born
potentially with higher amounts of either one, but both can be taught.
Yeah.
And both are important.
Yeah, and I think what's celebrated socially becomes more of what we do unless you have the parent who's kind of coaching you through it.
Right.
And I so I think of the little boys in my practice.
Like and the so so many of the amazing parents I work with who are raising these boys who do say things like try again to them, right?
Like, hey
Totally fine for you to tell your brother this and this, but I need you to say it again in a respectful way.
And more importantly, modeling it, being that example for them, right?
So like being the example of the dad who's kind and respectful and assertive, like can stand up for himself and the family.
Yeah.
Those are the really key things.
I think a core fear for parents is that if they teach their child
to say no and prioritize their own needs that their child will become selfish or unkind or entitled, like we were saying before.
So what would you say to a parent who is holding back from teaching, let's say, boundaries because of that fear
Like the parent in this situation is afraid their child's gonna become entitled.
Yes.
Yeah, and I think again that goes back to the balance, right?
Where you do wanna teach your child how to stand up for themselves and you also want to teach your child and show your child what it means to be kind.
So I think the biggest thing is like we can focus a lot on like what we specifically teach our kids, but they have to see it modeled through us.
that will be their biggest guide, right, in life.
And so if you don't want your child to be entitled and you want your child to have generosity and to care
about others and to be the person who, you know, holds the door open for someone else and lets them go through it.
They have to see that through the way that you act.
first and they will follow your lead most of the time, right?
So but that comes down to people pleasing too.
Like you for me, a lot of my people pleasing tendencies really came to a light when I became a parent and started watching my kids get older.
And being like, do I want them to do what I'm doing, which is to make everyone else so happy and try to please everybody else to the point where when I get home, I'm so burnt out and exhausted.
I have absolutely nothing left to give
the people who matter the most to me in their life, who I know will love me no matter what state I'm in.
Right?
So we need to look at ourselves
And same for the like being assertive if you're not also being kind.
If you're really good at being assertive all the time and you're telling your kids boundaries and you're being super clear about your expectations, but you're doing that through yelling or being harsh
Soon enough your child's gonna be yelling at you and gonna start being harsh with people and they're gonna start model like saying the same words that you're saying to them, just to their friends and their peers.
Right.
So we really need to be the model on both ends that we want our children to look up to.
Yeah.
I mean that is the case with on every episode.
Through every course.
It's really about modeling.
It's the foundation of everything that we teach.
That is truly how they learn, and that's backed up by attachment science, developmental psychology.
Everything.
Yeah.
There's lots of studies that have been done on the fact that that is how it works.
And so like I n I know we're wrapping up, but I would say on a very
much deeper note for this episode is to ask yourself as the parent, how are you both kind and assertive?
And are you?
Or do you fall more in one category or more the other, right?
Like I know you and I, this has been a journey for us over the course of our parenting where I've had to learn how to be more assertive and it's helped our marriage.
like a crazy amount where I don't feel like I have to not tell you things or like your favorite the shit sandwich like try and pile all sorts of compliments and then be like, And Scott, if you could do this for me And then ten more compliments after, right?
I've learned how to just say, Hey Scott
Blah blah blah.
This is what I need, right?
And same for you.
Not that you were ever mean, but sometimes like you would just be very clear and assertive and it would
be done done in a way that would hurt my feelings or would make me feel bad about myself, right?
So you've had to also learn how to do that with like a warmth
in your voice or you know more of like a gentleness to it and it's been a process for us but as we've figured that out as parents our kids have seen it.
Yep.
And they have also become, for the most part, quite assertive and kind.
Yeah.
Both.
They're quite good at it, honestly.
It's uh it's kind of fun to see.
We hear from a lot of people like, man.
Your kids are confident, like they they just say what they feel or whatever, but not in a mean way, like especially our oldest is very good at this, like better than both of us.
She's very good at that.
Well early on, yeah, she's definitely gotten better at that.
And I think there's less there's no baggage for her to kind of take along with.
She just
She doesn't concern herself with, oh will they like me if I say this or what she just says it.
Yep.
And we can learn a lot from that too.
Well, I think there's a dependability that people can rely on you to just tell them how
your feeling and not worry that you think one thing but say something totally different.
Yeah.
I think that's been my why because
Like I said, we've talked about becoming kind and assertive as an adult is a process and it actually takes a lot of practice, especially if you're like me and you you were more on the people pleaser side.
takes a lot of practice to learn how to state what you're actually feeling and like the soccer bowl kind of thing where I've said like you have to almost imagine handing the person's emotions back to them.
But for me, my biggest motivator was I don't want my kids
to feel the weight of the world and feel everyone's emotions and every decision that they make.
Like it's too much.
And I know that they can still be caring without
Carrying that weight.
So that helped me change.
And a part of that may just be your My temperament.
Sensitivity temperament.
Yeah.
So
Yes.
Okay, so if our listeners, the person listening could take away one guiding principle or commit to one small action this week to help their child build this compassionate backbone, what would you want it to be?
I mean we talked about a lot of different things, but if you could just choose one for someone to try.
I mean I think I'm gonna bring it back to the modeling.
That's been the biggest piece
in a moment where you would catch yourself either being very assertive and not kind or very kind and not assertive, ask yourself, how can I be both?
in this situation and just hold yourself responsible and see if you can find little glimmers of like times where you're being assertive and kind and then you can always tell your child the story of it.
Yeah.
Right.
So for me, I'll give one example because I think this is going to come out around the holidays.
Would be like holiday boundaries.
So I'm thinking about all the parents this time of year who were probably thinking about, oh, I don't want to go to great aunt.
whatever's Christmas party.
It's like the seventh Christmas party this week or holiday party.
You know, I don't want to do it.
But we would hate to make her
upset with us, so we're gonna all go.
You know, and you're modeling this to your kids and you're s telling your kids how bad you don't want to go and then you're showing them that you do it anyway, right?
Whereas maybe you can be more kind and assertive, be like, we're gonna go for an hour.
It's important for us to show up for our family that matters to us.
And
We we do want to protect our time with you guys and we know this time of year is so busy.
So after an hour we're gonna go home and we'll have some quality family time.
Right?
It's a great way to model being kind and being assertive.
Nice.
And I would say, and this is gonna going to come as a shock to many, but role-playing does help.
Oh, I knew it!
And you know what, maybe let's cut that out.
Make that a real Jordan.
Make that a real.
Cut that shit out.
No, but you have to admit, we do a lot of role play.
We do as much as maybe I should rephrase.
I don't love doing role-playing on the podcast.
Where's just the two of us sitting in our studio
Yeah.
Talking back and forth.
There is definitely a ton of value in doing it with your child if they're having a struggle with a friend or something like that.
Or that you want to try and
come up with multiple resolutions to an issue or you let's say even between us if you've had to have conversations that were going to be challenging.
I would kind of be the opposite side of it and come up with here all the possible avenues of what the person might say in this situation.
Well I was say, I think that's also why this podcast works so well is I've learned how to be assertive.
So even if you push back
on me and it's something I feel very firmly about.
I'm not necessarily like, oh, it's okay, Scott.
Like I don't want to make you upset.
Like I w I wouldn't want to really tell you how I feel if it makes you sad, right?
Like we can
actually have so much more valuable conversations because this is how we talk to each other in our relationship with kindness, but we're also clear.
And I feel like that's even just helpful communication for your relationship is to be able to have those two things.
So what I'm hearing, what you're saying is that I'm doing a really good job pushing your buttons a little bit, but for you to learn how to respond back, push back a little bit.
Push back assertively.
And I've also taught you how to how to be kind.
So you know.
But that's a podcast for another day.
Okay, well, thank you so much for listening.
It was quite something today.
It was quite something.
Hopefully you took something away from this conversation.
I know I did.
And really.
Well, I love this topic
I think it's missing.
We teach our kids to be kind, like kind kids.
Like you just see it everywhere.
Kind like on t-shirts and on like, you know, be kind.
It's like the one thing we always say, but we're not like be assertive today
Say what you really feel.
So I don't know.
Without hurting people, like without deliberately trying to hurt someone.
Yep.
Think of a a few options of this is what I always coach our daughters.
Think of a few different things you could say and then choose the one that you think is the most kind and
Like clear, but you know, we don't say that, we say be kind.
So I think that this episode is really important and I'm excited for people to hear it.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
All right.
Thank you so much for listening.
We we will see you next week.
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