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How can a deeper understanding of mental health help us see our world, and ourselves, differently? Hosted by therapist Kurt White and journalist Mary Wilson, each episode of Unravelling explores a complex mental health topic with insights from both professionals and people with lived experience. Whether you're trying to make sense of the world or just the slice of it inside of your head, Unravelling is here to foster a more compassionate and informed perspective on life.
The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Always consult with a qualified health care professional for any health concerns. Take care of yourself out there. Welcome to Unravelling, a podcast that sees the world through the lens of mental health. I'm Kurt White, a social worker and psychotherapist.
Mary:And I'm Mary Wilson, a journalist.
Kurt:And Mary, today we've got a very special guest to help us think about some of the themes that we brought up in the last episode, but in a different way. It's it's all about loss and mourning and coming together, but around a different sort of loss.
Mary:Yeah. Really a global loss. I was so honored that Angela Harrelson agreed to do an interview with me. She is the maternal aunt of George Floyd who was killed by police about six years ago now in May 2020. And Angela really became a voice of healing and change and justice after his death.
Kurt:Yeah. It's a time I'll always remember. Was right in the beginning of the COVID pandemic, and I remember friends of mine protesting, lining up in city filled streets saying, we might get sick, we might get COVID, we might not make it, but this is more important. And I never forgot that. I think it really, it felt like a very important collective process that we were going through at this particular time.
Mary:Yeah. And part of Angela's mission is to make that live on, make sure that no one forgets about what happened to her nephew and also to promote justice and racial justice across the world. So she's involved in an organization called Rise and Remember, which is about memorializing the very place where George Floyd was killed. It's a place now where people can go from all across the world to, process that grief and come together.
Kurt:And that's a kind of thing I've long been interested in. How do we how do we come together around traumas that are collected in nature as well as individual? Of course, for her it was both. And a lot has been written about that, but I think what she has to say about it I think is really exciting and interesting and very moving, at least to me.
Mary:Yeah. Sure is. Angela Harrelson is a registered nurse in Minneapolis and author of racial justice advocate. She's the author of Lift Your Voice, How My Nephew George Floyd's Murder Changed the World and cochair of Rise and Remember, a foundation dedicated to preserving stories of resistance, creating spaces for community healing, and inspiring people to pursue racial justice locally and globally.
Kurt:Well, let's get right into it.
Mary:Angela Harrelson, it is such an honor to have you on the podcast. Welcome to Unravelling.
Angela:Well, thank you very much.
Mary:And if people might recognize your name, you have been in the media a lot over the past six years, I guess, as you are the aunt of George Floyd or as your family, and you knew him as Perry. Right?
Angela:Yeah. As Perry. We called him Perry. The world knew him as George Floyd, but we've always known him as Perry. He was unnamed after his father, and we knew his father as Perry.
Mary:And so George Floyd, the name, and it's just become this public symbol, right, for most people in the world, a rallying cry, a martyr. But, of course, you knew Perry as a person. Can you just paint the picture a little bit about what we might not know about Perry having seen just social media and the news, which we know doesn't always paint an accurate picture?
Angela:Yeah. It's so true because, you know, they see him as a as a symbol, and and I know that's out of, you know, trying to be respectful and that and it's a way for people to have something to look up to. But, he wasn't just a symbol to us, he was family, you know, and he was just like anyone else, you know, he wasn't perfect, but he was someone that really truly loved family. Mean, family was everything to him. A lot of people don't know, he read the Bible almost every day.
Angela:So he was very religious, loved my sister, loved his mom. Oh, his mom was his heartbeat. And I just remember, you know, after he, had gotten in some trouble and served time, you know, that that really broken, you know, because disappointment for mom. I remember, you know, him, my sister, telling me how he took her to church. She was in a wheelchair at the time, and he took her to church in a wheelchair, and that was the most exciting thing that my sister put a big smile on her face, her son, you know, in church and fishing in a wheelchair, I'll never forget that.
Angela:But he was just like he could have been anybody's brother and sister, all about community, loved sports, you know, always called me and said, what's up, auntie? What you doing today? I'm auntie, you know. And I tell people he was just an average person, you know, but he but he was a big dreamer.
Mary:And his family clearly loved him. He loved his family. Take us back to that time in 2020. So much was going on already with the pandemic, and then this terrible thing happens, where your nephew is murdered. And you said at the time you didn't even have space to grieve.
Mary:Right? Things were so chaotic. There was the press and, the protests and people coming together. What did it look like? What did you need in that moment to grieve?
Angela:Here's the thing. I mean, none of us was prepared for any of this, so all of this came out out of left field. I guess at that time, I felt like I was in an out of body experience because to family, when you talk about grief and trying to grieve, it's usually a private matter. If you work, you know, you're gonna take three days off all week, go have a funeral, planned funeral, talk about memories, work on obituary, all this stuff so privately. And so the difference is when it happened, you're in shock that it happened.
Angela:You're dealing with that, but you don't have time to deal with it because it was so public. And then there's this media frenzy that you're dealing with. So you just, you're like an automated process. Your body is going, but nothing has really caught up with. And that's the best way I can explain it.
Angela:So you're grieving, and then at the same time, the public is grieving, the community is grieving. So it's a shared grief that is going on, and me learning how to deal with that, how to deal with shared grief. And so what I realized is that, you know, putting myself out there, the strength to put yourself out there, that shared grief was very powerful because it helped me get through some really, really difficult, tough times that I was unprepared for, I'd never seen before in my lifetime. Meaning dealing with being followed, harassed, the threats. Yes, there was a lot of outpour and love, and I welcome that.
Angela:And we needed it at that time to get through, but there was another dark side to it that a lot of people didn't see, and that's where your community comes in.
Mary:In that moment, you know, you could have stayed silent or sort of retreated. You chose to use your voice, right, and really and step into sort of a role and call for justice. What was that decision? What did was there some tension there where maybe you just wanted to stay private?
Angela:You know, I didn't come out for about about a week, two weeks, maybe a little bit longer, I would say, because there was the fear, and I didn't know what to do, and I just wanted to just, oh my God. I can't think just go back to it. You know, it's like there was just it was just so much to deal with. Because you turn the TV on, it's everywhere. Every single station.
Angela:You go outside, it's everywhere. I know he's gone, but he's everywhere. And I said, but I will go to bed, I will wake up thinking about him all the time, about the whole thing. And then you go to sleep dreaming about it. So trying to find peace and grief, and so I'm like, oh my God, I want to do something.
Angela:And hearing some of the negativity in the news, no, no, no, he's not like that. You know, you say these things. I said, God, how can I be a voice for him? I mean, I gotta do something, but I'm not sure if I'm strong enough and I'm toying with this. And I'm a very faithful person.
Angela:I'm very strong in my faith. And I remember God speaking to me of whatever people want to call their heart, power, intuition. But for me, and I remember that message that I got out of that, Angela, you can do this. And then it took me back to him. I was seeing Perry saying I can't breathe, but the message he was trying to tell me, Angela, if I can give Perry your nephew in those conditions when he was dying, saying I can't breathe, when he was in pain and Lord knows what he was going through, surely I can give you the strength to be a voice for him.
Angela:And I never forgot that that was a message that woke me up that sparked something in me. I was still a little nervous. I was still a little scared, but when it told me I could do it. And that's when I started speaking and going out. And I didn't have a lot of skills or stuff doing it, but I just did it.
Angela:And I got better because I just spoke from the heart. I just told, I told my truth, and I was just trying to be transparent, and I just went out there because it was so important, not just the justice for the community, for justice for humanity that was very important.
Mary:I can tell you have such a powerful voice and such a skill for sharing your truth. What did it feel like for you when you started to speak out about this?
Angela:You know, it gave me, it's like, that's where I think some of the healing, the beginning of the healing, to work towards healing. And I noticed that it was, I became, it came like a quiet confidence. And it felt better. It felt like I had a voice. I felt like I was being heard.
Angela:I don't know if everyone was listening, but I just started speaking out. And it felt like it gave me, you know what? This is the beginning of healing because now I have a purpose. The grief turned into a purpose.
Mary:And that happened quickly, right? I mean, were still grieving as you were working through this.
Angela:Well, know, the only thing about grief, you know, I grieved and then all of a sudden it was like, I don't know where it went. It can be delayed grief. You can start grief. It can be delayed grief where you're just going through that motion and like, what is wrong with me? Because you're working so hard, you get so into the activism, you know, and that you try so hard, you forget, oh, it's okay to take a moment and just cry, and it's okay.
Angela:So there were those periods that I went through in the beginning, you know, and it was an on and off. And there was some, was talking to his brother yesterday, he said it took him two years to really finally just grieved. So, you know, some of us knew him differently, so the relationship was differently and the grief was different. So yeah, a couple of his brothers told me that they felt like they didn't really, really, hit him after two years, because you're put out there and so much is expected of you, and there's a responsibility that that you take on.
Mary:That's really powerful to say that you turned your grief into purpose. Can you say more about that and the connection between the two? Because sometimes it feels like it's senseless and death there is no purpose to death.
Angela:It can feel that way, though. There's I mean, death is hard. I mean, there is no other way around it. You know? When you lose someone, a loved one, your mom, your sister, your brother, someone that you've been in your life close to, or not even close to sometimes.
Angela:And I say that because so many people did not know my nephew personally, But they could feel the rawness of the pain because this could have happened to their brother, their sister. You know, so everyone connected with. And so I think what began to happen is that if you, you know, you can grieve alone, which I don't recommend doing that, get support, is where the community comes in, or get therapy, whatever you need to do. But when you start to turn that grief into purpose, it wakes something up inside of you. You, courage, experience of bravery that you didn't think you knew how to do.
Angela:And so as you speaking more, as you going out, as you trying to fight, it gives you that energy. You're still connected to the pain somehow. It doesn't mean that the pain is going away, but you now have a purpose to make the right, to get justice. And most of all, to show people what humanity looks like. So when you're out there, like when I'm out there doing my activism work, it is so important that I have to do it out of love, because love shines a light.
Angela:You can't do it with hate. Yes, you're gonna be frustrated and sometimes, oh my God, and that may cross your mind. But when you have a purpose in life, if your purpose is about humanity, That's for all of us. That's not just for Perry, that's for all of us. You see what I'm saying?
Angela:And so I'm just, my purpose is to show people of humanity what humanity should look like. Because the whole purpose is not to say black lives matter for the next fifty or one hundred years. You have to come to a place where you don't need to say black lives matter.
Mary:Yeah. And the fact that you chose to move with love instead of hate. I mean, I don't think anyone would blame you for feeling that hate.
Angela:Yeah. I get that too quite a bit, you know. But I said, but what is it gonna do to me? I don't wanna be in prison. I don't want this to live in my head.
Angela:What is hate going to give you? Hating? It's gonna get you darkness. And what I've learned is that people will be attracted to you, Spiritually, a connection it doesn't have to be spiritual. Sorry.
Angela:But people will listen to you more when you come across with compassion on fairness, you do it with love.
Mary:I know part of your purpose, had to do with George Floyd Square and the memorial. Can you just walk me through? I know it all started so organically. When did you first become aware of this growing memorial?
Angela:Well, I knew it was there. I remember the first time I was trying to get to it, but the crowds were so huge. I couldn't get through it, and I didn't want no one to know who I was, because I was still on the diapause, you know, because it just too much. So I went back, and I said, my goodness. And then they had the funeral here, and so we went to the memorial to pay respects, but it was difficult because there were so many people around.
Angela:So I didn't have the chance to really get in. I said, okay. So I was, by that time in June, I'd done some speaking, and I think of my tours, maybe the June, I said, okay, when I got that strength, when that guy sent me that clear message, I don't know how ready I was when he told me that message that I'll never forget. If I could give him the strength to say I can't breathe, surely I can give you the strength to be a voice for him. So I still remember that in my heart and I went out there and I said, Okay, this is the time I'm taking this walk without my family.
Angela:I'm taking it by myself, it was very important. So when I went out there, I just started walking. But little did I know I wasn't really paying too much attention because people knew who I were. Cause remember, I had got out. And so he's speaking with the strength.
Angela:And so I remembered I was walking, a couple people came up to me, oh, are you George Floyd? I said, yes, I am. I said, I'm going to the memorial. And they just started walking with me. I said, okay.
Angela:And they were talking to me, you know, and I saw, you know, a caretaker there that was meticulously sweeping and caring for the office that was being placed there. Oh, I think about one that makes me cry. And then I saw and then something told me to look back. It was other people coming around and they were saying hello when they were bringing flowers. They were introducing themselves.
Angela:There was one that was lighting candles. It was in the evening and it just really touched me. And it was doing this not just for my family, but for their community and for their purpose. And that just, that was an overwhelming love and joy that I felt. And then that's when the connection started building.
Angela:And it's like, I wanna get to know more about this community and these people, you know, because of what they have shown me. And so I started getting to know them. I got together with a young lady, Janelle Austin, and we formed this organization with another family member called Rise and Remember. And that's how that came apart. I became part of everything.
Angela:And I just started getting in, fell in love with the community. They became like family. So I lost Perry, but I gained a community. And it was as well to see that. And I've never been a part of anything that strong and that passionate.
Angela:So once that started, now you speak of shared community, shared grief, shared purpose. Now we're walking in our purpose, and I'm not walking alone, I'm walking with the community. And now I'm going through the trials, I'm going through the court process, and having all of this together, which was extraordinary, which was very, very powerful. Because remember, I tell people, when the people come, they're grieving too in their own way. So now we have those talks together.
Angela:We have shared stories, shared testimony. I met people who I never met before that knew my nephew, and they wanted to share with me.
Mary:So you were going through this private grief, the grief of an aunt losing a beloved nephew, and at the same time being this public voice. You were can you define the difference between these two, sort of the the public grieving and the personal? Can they be the same, and were there moments when they were in conflict?
Angela:They're different because private grieving is different than public grieving. You know? But what makes it powerful when it becomes a shared grief. But the only way you can know it is shared is engage and listen and come together in solidarity. That's when it becomes a shared grief and a public grief.
Angela:You know, people come to that space from all over the world. They come there with flowers, they come there with letters, they come there with books, they come there with art, they come there with food, they come there with salt. So you deal with all of this. One of the most powerful connections, and I experienced a lot of them, but one that really stood out to me to say was a gentleman, I remember I was there. Because I go to the memorial almost four to seven times a week for different reasons, for different reasons.
Angela:And a man came up to me, and I will never forget it. He was crying profusely. And so I was used to that. I was used to comforting, and I'm also used to receiving that. But this was different because it was so he just was crying so much that he could barely speak.
Angela:And so I was just thinking, my God, this is really emotional. And it was tearing me up. But the first words that came out of his mouth, he said, I used to be a racist, which was something that I wasn't expecting. You know, I'm just expecting that, you know, I'm sorry for your loss. I'm here, you know, the words that most probably spoken.
Angela:And I really didn't know how to respond to that, so I kind of paused. And I remember saying, and I remember I was holding his hands and I said, okay. And he said, that band right there, he pointed to the site where Perry took his last breath. He said, that man right there changed my life. And that like, wow.
Angela:And I remember he hugged me. And then he said, he was so sorry for everything, but he said, that man right there changed my life. And he walked away and I realized that was his way of healing, dealing with his own personal demons, but coming to tell me something like that was very, very brave, but that was something he needed to do. And I realized, you know, that man needs that healing more than I do. And I remember saying that, but I never saw him again.
Mary:And that was just one instance, I'm sure so many lives have been changed, and and you've been able to see that happen. How important is that physical space? And I know that it lives on today, George Floyd's Square.
Angela:It's truly the sacred. It's a very, very sacred place. But I tell people, people people that come bring humanity to that space. That's what makes it so sacred. Most of the people that come there are not coming there to be mean, not coming there.
Angela:You're leading people all over the world that's bringing their humanity, that's bringing their love, that's bringing, you know, that hope. And this becomes, it's everybody's memorial there in the community. And they're very protective of that memorial. And they wanted to stay there because that space speak a historical tragedy that happened. You know, that space is about truth.
Angela:That space speak of a time where the world stood as one about we need to get this right, we need to quit. And it represents so much hope, and it also represent a space where we need to continue to to right out to right our wrongs.
Mary:In the story that you just mentioned about the person admitting that they were once racist and dealing with their own sort of personal grief, What's it like for you to take on the grief of others, especially when you have your own grief, and do those two sort of interact?
Angela:You know what? In the beginning, it was really kinda hard, to be honest with you, because I'm lost. I'm like, okay, I'm lost. I'm trying to deal with it. But there were some people that would come and say, you know, you don't need to comfort me because you're dealing with your own.
Angela:And I said, I know, but so are you. And I'll always come back with that. And so what I learned, became a shared grief. So now we hold each other up, and that's the difference. Now I go to spaces of more healing and about reflection.
Angela:Now, six years now. In the beginning, you know, it's a lot of memories. Not just my memories, but people in the community have their memories. So now we sit there in memorial because there are benches there where you can sit and talk to one another. You can hold one another hands.
Angela:They share their stories with you. There are people that come there in wheelchairs. There's a deaf, hard of hearing community that comes there and with their sign language interpreter, you know, and try to share their, you know, they do the thing love, and I've learned some little things too. And I remember one time there was over 700 pastors there. And then they came through to visit and they prayed.
Angela:People have laid in this space for nine minutes and twenty nine seconds. They just lay there for nine minutes and twenty nine seconds. You know, they do that. The Native Americans, they come in to do a ritual in the space. They have their own greed that they express in so many different ways.
Angela:And I listen and I sit, you know, while they express their grief. And then we talk and we talk about so many things. And sometimes does it ever talk about politics in the memorial? Yes, does. Politics come in memorial.
Angela:You know, so many people come. Some people come disguised. They don't want, you know, who they are. You know, but you come there so much that I can kinda like see who is who and who is who. All types of people come there and share their grief.
Angela:And it's very, very powerful. It's a solidarity that is unbrokable. Because like I said, people bring their humanity to that space and that's what make it sacred.
Mary:And even though you go, what you said, up to five times a week still, do you still feel that same, you know, those same emotions come over you even though it's a space that you frequent so often?
Angela:Well, you know, sometimes I feel that emotion. It's different. Often it's different, you know. Sometimes I just go there and I see visitors. And if I go there, if I see someone there, always make a point to go there and say thank you for paying respect to my family and the community today.
Angela:Because it's very important to me to do that. And I don't care how tired I am. If I see someone there, I will pull over and get out of that car. And I say, I have done it, but after I've got off work, I just want you to know that thank you, that's the least I can do because how you guys showed up in 2020 for my family and for the community. And most of the time they're totally shocked that the family members even feel like, where did you come from?
Angela:But I'm glad that I got a chance to meet you. Because most of the time they're very surprised by that. You know, most of the time they're very surprised and very, very grateful that that interaction took place. Because you talk about a lot of people coming from out of town. You know, I was there recently.
Angela:There was someone from Spain. They're from France, from Germany. And you know they come from so far. And and if I'm there, the least I can do is to come up to say thank you when they come from so far.
Mary:Seeing George Floyd's name fade from the headlines after, you know, the twenty four hour coverage for so many months and now six years later, is that hard to see the spotlight shift away? Or in your world, are you still shining just as much of a light on his life and the change that you hope happens?
Angela:Well, the thing is that I really don't pay too much attention to media because I'm so involved in it that I see it all the time. Because hundreds of people come to the square all the time, almost every day, I still see it happening. And I do think that with everything that's going on, that's trying to make it erase it or go away, but the thing is that it really hasn't went anywhere. The people in 2020 that fought, most of them are still around and their feelings have not changed. Their voices have not changed.
Angela:And there are still, many of those people are still existing. And Minnesota's I've shown people that. We never went anywhere.
Mary:Renee Good was killed just a few blocks away from that site, and the two memorials are very close to each other. What is that like, and what has that meant for the community that calls that area home?
Angela:Oh, it was devastating. The thing about that, Renee and Alex, because there were two, their lives were lost and their families would never be the same again. So the humanity should always be first with that For the family and what they oh my goodness, what they have to go through. Lord have mercy. That's the first thing I thought about.
Angela:Oh my God, what they are going through, and how they're going to be attacked, and the media. But Minnesota showed a lot of love for them. Are a lot of people around the world that showed a lot of love and so for them. It was very difficult, because you hear the thing is, it was trauma. You know, for the last six years, we went through a lot of trauma, post trauma.
Angela:We called it collective PTSD in the square. Collective PTSD, you know. And when you see people react the way they do, and they fight so hard for their passion and for the justice for them, it's because a lot of things they have went through before. And you bring that, know, it's a trigger, and you bring that trauma into that. Sometimes you're just going through the process trying to heal, and that's what Allah that you saw, the frustration that no, you can't, No.
Angela:It's not okay. You can't and we and you and you're going to hear us.
Mary:And you knew sort of what the families of Alex Pretty and Renee Good were going through, and you sort of lived it yourself. Were you able to speak to members of those families at all? And what was sort of the advice, or what did you share with them?
Angela:Well, you know, I haven't had a chance to reach out to them because I know what it's like to be overwhelmed with lot in media and people reaching out. And sometimes you don't know who is real, who is authentic. And even though I know what they're going through, it was very important to give them that space. And it's something that for me to do is to do it privately and not with cameras. It was very important.
Angela:And so I knew that is the way that I would like to handle it with them, to reach out to them. I was doing it in private. And that's how I like to do it, offer my support and love because I know that life is not forever changed.
Mary:And with the fear and grief that people are feeling in response to the ICE raids, what do you think the most important sort of lessons from the past six years are? What what feels most important right now?
Angela:I'm struggling to always be for humanity. See, here the thing is is that when they when they came, they said they were looking for the the criminals and the people, you know, the certain communities, certain people of color. Let's just keep it real. And that was disheartening to know that certain communities, certain people of color, Hispanics, Somali. We a lot of that going on at that time that drew ice in here.
Angela:And so the lesson that should be learned out of all this is that you think about humanity. Because our community felt terrorized. They were scared. Businesses were stopped because of the fear. We know that people have a job they have to do.
Angela:Nobody is saying that people who are doing horrible things should stay in the country. No one's ever saying that, but there's no way to do anything. And the thing is that when you label people a certain group, certain way, they get tired and can be mistreated. And when you go into this with that attitude, and you don't institute humanity, the same people that have instituted these policies to do this, because it gets blurred. Humanity gets blurred in what you're doing.
Angela:Anything can happen to Anything. And what happened, we had two white people that got killed. Nobody expected that. I'm being honest. Everybody was like, But they don't look white because, you know, you're saying But I tell people, see, I'm telling you, when you don't focus on humanity and you focus on the wrong things and you're letting greed, power, influence you and you know that's not right, anything can happen to anybody.
Angela:And that's the sad thing about it. The thing is it shouldn't happen at all. So people need to know underneath all this stuff, you know, we fight for against racism. We fight against sexism. We fight against, you know, all these things of inequality.
Angela:And when you strip everything down, race, vision, sexual orientation, everything is about humanity.
Mary:Many of our listeners may be right now just overwhelmed by the injustices in the world happening, feeling like you can't do anything. And I love the name of the group that you're part of, the what is it? Rise and Remember.
Angela:Rise and Remember.
Mary:Yes. Such a powerful name. And what can that teach us about what we can do now? How can we rise and remember?
Angela:You know, this is what I tell people, is that when I came up that name for our organization. But here's the thing. If you wanna do something, don't just join the movement. You gotta become the movement Become the change. There's a difference.
Angela:Because so many people join. They wanna do this, they wanna do that. They're so excited. But do you become the change? Because what you see in the George Floyd Square, where you see people out there, and when you see these people out out in the protest or whatever they're doing and marching, they became the movement.
Angela:They became changed. They became divorced. Because if you don't become that, what you are speaking out, then your voice becomes silent and become neutral. And then go back and forth. You tip your toes in, you tip your toes out.
Angela:You tip your toes in, but you're not full in. Can only make change, can only become powerful when you are all in. And all in doesn't mean you have to be out there holding the sign. You can do change any type of way. You can become a change any type of way.
Angela:Like as you wanna make a difference, if you can cook for justice, cook the best meal for justice. If you can sing for justice, sing for justice. If you can write for justice, write for justice. But whatever you do, become it, feel it, believe it. And then you have the authenticity and you come across with love and people hear you and they will listen to understand.
Angela:You know, people don't think when you step up to do something, the things that you have done prior in life, you don't realize it, whether it's good or bad, you're going through, preparing you for it, journey ahead, fail for you, but you don't know it at the time. So all the years I went through, race seven, growing up in the Jim Crow area, turned down for this, also being a female, raised whatever, and working in this mental health feels all there has prepared you for now, but you just don't know it.
Mary:Well, you have certainly changed the world as have your nephew and your whole family. So we thank you for that, and thank you so much for spending the hour chatting with me.
Angela:Thank you, and you have been wonderful. Thank you.
Mary:And I just want to thank Angela once again for her strength and her grace and how she's just willing to share her story with me and for the rest of the world. Kurt, I know you were listening along. That was a really special interview, wasn't it?
Kurt:Oh my goodness. A very special and moving interview. It brought me to tears a couple of different times. And also stirred up a lot, I think, in a positive way, that sort of sense of finding a way into something that you can do. I think that's just so very powerful.
Kurt:Yeah. And it made me wanna go there to this to the square, to this memorial, and see it with my own eyes. I I haven't been to Minnesota since I was a kid, but, maybe I'm gonna have to book tickets pretty soon.
Mary:You know, the same feeling came over me. I wanted to see it and be there because Angela says how people just start sobbing, or there's all sorts of waves of emotion that come over you. And I actually found the virtual tour that you can find. I'll include the link in our show notes where you can go through the different art installations and the different aspects of the memorial, which includes a symbolic installation, which is the say their name cemetery of other black people who are killed by police. So I really recommend it to anyone who wants to visit the square themselves.
Kurt:That sounds really special. Yeah. I will check that out as as soon as I as soon as we get done recording, I'm gonna actually check that
Angela:out.
Mary:Very good. And if people want to learn more about Rise and Remember or Angela's book, I'll include those links in the show notes as well.
Kurt:Well, thank you, Mary, and thank you, Angela, and thank you, listeners, for joining us on this journey. And we will see you again in a couple of weeks.
Mary:See you then.
Kurt:Unraveling is brought to you by Brattleboro Retreat. Our producers at Charts and Leisure are Andrew Adkin, Hans Buteau, and Jason Oberholzer.
Mary:And you can find us on social media by searching Brattleboro Retreat. Brattleboro Retreat is committed to exploring diverse perspectives on mental health. While we invite hosts and guests to share their insights, the views expressed are their own and do not necessarily reflect the policies or positions of the hospital or its staff.