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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:26:11
Unknown
Welcome to the foster Friendly podcast, where we come together to make a difference in the lives of children in foster care and the families who care for them. Foster friendly communities are part of a nationwide movement by America's Kids Who Belong. That helps people from all walks of life take action and help kids and families thrive. You'll hear from former foster youth, foster and adoptive parents, social workers, faith and business leaders, and other experts on how to engage in meaningful ways.
00:00:26:13 - 00:00:36:23
Unknown
Our host Bryan, Travis and Courtney explore inspiring stories of everyday people making a difference in foster care, where they live and work.
00:00:36:23 - 00:00:56:06
Unknown
Welcome to the podcast. Today we are going to talk about the foster to prison pipeline and what's behind. That was what was a really unique vantage into both worlds. We'll also talk about someone who is a who's foster is a single and has great tips for single dads out there and other men that kind of are curious about this space.
00:00:56:08 - 00:01:21:14
Unknown
So Courtney and I are joined today by Bernie Lattner, who who's a single foster, an adoptive dad, as well as a federal prison chaplain in Rochester, Minnesota, which again gives him a very unique vantage point to have kind of an experience in both of those worlds that converge. And he's sort of fostering in 2006, and his foster nine kids adopted three and mentored over 30.
00:01:21:16 - 00:01:41:12
Unknown
He currently does respite care for foster families and really excited to have you on today, Bernie. I'm very honored to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, Bernie, we're happy that you're here and your story just intrigues me a lot. So I would love it if you just tell us a little bit about more about yourself, your family and your new role as that prison chaplain.
00:01:41:14 - 00:02:01:06
Unknown
Sure. So I, I grew up in Michigan, and I actually was raised by a single father myself. My, my mother and father were divorced by the time that I was in fifth grade. And my dad fought for custody. And even back in the 70s, which is kind of dating myself. my father won custody. It was very unusual.
00:02:01:06 - 00:02:23:22
Unknown
And it was unusual even in the communities we lived in. As we interacted with other families. They just thought, it's so odd. And yet, you know, today's culture, it's much more acceptable to have a single father. but my father raised three of us. I'm the oldest. I have a brother and a sister. All of us are successful in our own areas in life or college educated.
00:02:23:24 - 00:02:53:01
Unknown
all very active in our communities. Active in our churches. you know, I was just very blessed to have the father that I did. And you talk about, like, circumstances. So my siblings, when we talk, not only my father, his past, you know, we just look back and, wonder what it would have been like had we not been with my father, had we been raised by my mother that had, some significant problems and still struggles in life.
00:02:53:01 - 00:03:29:19
Unknown
And so, you know, a lot of it is just kind of where I'm at today is because I had a stable father and I have that, stable family. so anyway, I after I moved out, I went to or went to college, graduated, went on to seminary. so eight year track there. Graduated, ordained. did some parish work briefly and then went into the military as a chaplain and served there, with the Navy, with the Marines, did some stuff with the Coast Guard, a little merchant fleet, did some JTF with the multiple forces.
00:03:29:21 - 00:03:56:18
Unknown
And then as I was getting out, I was asked to do four more years with the Army because of the critical shortage there at that time. So I did another four years there came out was a hospital chaplain for a while, and actually, left the ministry briefly to go in the medical sales. And, through that connection, I ended up, being reconnected with a number of mentoring groups and working with kids.
00:03:56:18 - 00:04:21:06
Unknown
And, from there had a young man who actually asked me to adopt them. And that really wasn't the goal of the program. But it got me to thinking, you know, kind of with my life experience, how how positive that would be. He he was so hungry, even for a mentor, father figure, role model in his life that he had ask if I could adopt him or, yeah, actually adopt him.
00:04:21:06 - 00:04:43:00
Unknown
And the mother, was actually even inquiring in there. But that wasn't the parameters of that program. And so in order to maintain the integrity of that program and the mentoring, that never happened, but it got me to looking at it. So, like many people, I pass it off a little bit, kind of study that saw there was a lot of things that I had to jump through, didn't really understand.
00:04:43:00 - 00:05:11:11
Unknown
All the process connected with a smaller adoption group went through their training and to be honest there, the training scared me to death because they showed a lot of difficult kids and problems. you know, talk about how to manage those behaviors, different things. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm I'm not the guy to handle all that. so it was another year before I started looking at some of the kids that they were presented.
00:05:11:13 - 00:05:45:14
Unknown
And then from that, I ended up taking in two displaced adoptions, disrupted adoptions. So they, two boys had come from Russia and been disrupted here in the United States. And so I adopted them. Very difficult kids with reactive attachment, you know, some more significant behavioral issues. So what I'm going to say is, if I can do it and, and do it with that level of care, there's a lot of other really great kids out there that don't have that level of extreme behavior and can still make it in this world.
00:05:45:16 - 00:06:16:17
Unknown
and then I adopted another boy who was a US, child out of Idaho. and he did very well as well and went on to play college soccer. And, you know, unfortunately didn't maintain his grades. And he had to lose that, that scholarship. And he's, still figuring his way in life. But, you know, three great young men that were, a pleasure to raise and to be a father figure four and then even all the other kids that I've had in my home for foster care, every one of them still keeps in touch.
00:06:16:19 - 00:06:34:07
Unknown
I've got a meeting with another boy that I worked with on Wednesday. You know, one of my mentors to talk about, you know, another child that I'm working with who had similar circumstances to get his thoughts. So, it's a great, great place to be. Awesome. Yeah. That just speaks to my heart. And we have a lot in common.
00:06:34:07 - 00:06:54:09
Unknown
We also adopted a daughter that was up from a displaced adoption, and has reactive attachment disorder. So I know the the trials and the journey that you've been through, you know, from both aspect of it. So if I tell you, consequences, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You know what you talking about? so what does that look like for you today?
00:06:54:09 - 00:07:12:08
Unknown
You're fostering adoption and mentoring. What's kind of your day to day look like? And what are you up to this these days? Yeah. So my day to day right now is I'm doing, mentoring. So I have a 17, 17 year old boy who's going to be turning 18 that I'm mentoring now that I was matched with, back in December.
00:07:12:10 - 00:07:33:08
Unknown
and that's going to it's very timely because he was in the prison, the pipeline or the foster care to prison pipeline. and hopefully the right steps have been done. Now that we're we've turned from that. We got a significant milestone on that. He graduated from high school, which was not expected, but he got all these work in and he he did graduate.
00:07:33:08 - 00:07:57:17
Unknown
So again, you get a positive person and at the right time they can turn around a lot of those adverse childhood events and get them get them on focus. and then currently I'm a federal prison chaplain, so I work full time in a prison. we're an administrative prison, so we have all levels, all the way from maximum security, all the way down to our custody camp.
00:07:57:19 - 00:08:18:11
Unknown
so I see it all, and, and then the hospital aspect for for the people, they are being treated for things, you know, relative to either illness or subsequently, because of the activities that they were in and the damage they did to their bodies. So, ideological for retirement right now. But I'm hanging on for another two years.
00:08:18:13 - 00:08:46:00
Unknown
and at which point, you know, I may look at going back into the full time foster care. I've also been asked if I would consider to be a Guardian and litem or council worker. And, so I'm looking at that. That's another avenue. that'd be another discussion. But it's another way to be an advocate and a help to kids in crisis and, and working with the families hopefully towards reunification and if not to to stable placements.
00:08:46:00 - 00:09:14:15
Unknown
So, yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, yeah, what a journey. I mean, I love your story too, of just where I think so many people can relate to how you described, you know, you weren't necessarily seeking out the space of foster care. You like most of us, you kind of back into it or, you know, maybe you discover in some way and then, you know, it kind of piqued your interest.
00:09:14:15 - 00:09:33:13
Unknown
Or maybe it's a slow trajectory into that space. But and then there's, you know, a feeling of like, do I even have what this takes? you know, so much and this is really relatable. And then to just kind of hear you, you know, go in, you know, go in with the courage and, you know, just say, I'm going to just do this.
00:09:33:15 - 00:09:55:14
Unknown
This is an ordinary guy, you know, that that enters that and then the lives that you're chasing changing by your presence. I was going to ask you as a follow up to a corny is, now that you've been a foster parent this many years out, and those experiences, are you mentoring differently, like, has that shaped even how you're you know, that is a great question.
00:09:55:19 - 00:10:21:01
Unknown
And I, I would say definitely I am. And I think the type of the circumstances under which the kids are growing up now and their ability to communicate and communicate differently. And so I become, I think, much more consultative with the kids and trying to help them to kind of see their own direction and solve their own problem.
00:10:21:01 - 00:10:41:23
Unknown
And then I'm just kind of a guide. And then having gone through, you know, the reactive attachment issues, and doing the beyond consequences, like when I first took my, my second son was much more difficult with the reactive attachment. and I don't scare people away here, but he would destroy things. So he would destroy a dishwasher.
00:10:41:23 - 00:11:07:16
Unknown
He would destroy the dog food. He would destroy pots and pans, countertops, walls. And and it was really to test and see. Is this enough for you to get rid of me? And the way you would react was the way I had been raised by my dad. Like, what are you doing? Like, do you realize if you punch this wall here one more inch over, you would have hit the side and you know, it could have broke your hand and you know, we'd be in the operating room right now.
00:11:07:16 - 00:11:31:22
Unknown
Or, you need to pick up this dog food right now and, and get that back in, and then you're going to work towards, you know, repayment of buying that bag. And with kids with reactive attachment, the first thing they need to know is I love you. You're important to me, and I'm here to protect you. And I want to figure out how we can make this right.
00:11:31:24 - 00:12:00:07
Unknown
And then you just sit on the ground with them or you. But they're waiting for that conflict, that reaction. And then they feed off of that. and try to maintain control. And and it it's, it has changed the way in which I do mentor and and even how I do counseling at the prison with so many of these, men who have come from really difficult spaces to, yeah, I've walked a line of counseling every day.
00:12:00:07 - 00:12:19:21
Unknown
Or a man. Yeah. I think I'm thinking, like, your friends in Minnesota are like the nickname Saint Bernie. Does that ever come up? It's just all this stuff. It's amazing, though. It's actually that it's dog. because you have patron saints for everything, right? So you have a saint that you can pray to for just about anything, but there's not.
00:12:19:21 - 00:12:52:22
Unknown
As for what the heck did I get myself into? They said, so, Saint Mary, it'll be, you know, whatever you. What the heck did I get myself into? You know that. And maybe I'll be the who's the patron saint of what mass am I getting it? That's. Well, So take us into any stories. You know, you have kind of of looking back at your time with some of the boys and the kids in your care like that kind of just stand out in terms of you, maybe the impact it's had on you, you know, in your journey as a foster dad.
00:12:52:24 - 00:13:28:15
Unknown
Yeah. Well, I mean, kind of to keep it on the topic here for the, the, you know, the foster care to prison pipeline and things. So when you have kids that come from difficult spaces, they can become targeted very quickly in schools, primarily, especially where you have a, excuse me, a school resource officer that maybe isn't skilled in, working with children that react a different way because the way law enforcement approaches something is probably, again, more like how my dad approach things, but with the authority of a legal position.
00:13:28:17 - 00:13:51:13
Unknown
So my youngest son, my other two kids, we went through a regular school in my town, but we were having a couple incidences, you know, with some different things going on. And then my third son, he started to pick up legal charges for very minor things. He he'd use a cell phone that somebody allowed him to borrow.
00:13:51:15 - 00:14:10:19
Unknown
and the kid would come back to the locker and say, hey, my cell phone's gone. Knowing that he had allowed certain kids to use it, but didn't know that one of them had it at the time. And so then the resource officer would treat that as a criminal theft, and he would take the value of the cell phone at 700 $800.
00:14:10:21 - 00:14:28:24
Unknown
And he'd say, okay, this is a significant misdemeanor. This is going to require trial isolation, even when the kid in the family would say, no, no, I let Kelly use it in between classes. I just didn't know that he had it. And so when I came to my locker, I saw it was gone. So my son ended up in the diversion program.
00:14:28:24 - 00:14:49:22
Unknown
We ended up in the legal system. And, we actually had to, you know, have the judge tell us, okay, you're going to do this many hours of community service and all this other kind of stuff, and, and, you know, let's just get through this and we'll be done. Well, the next thing I know, he's in trouble because he had gone to the bathroom behind a tree on the playground.
00:14:49:24 - 00:15:14:11
Unknown
Well, from where he came from. And I talked with the school and the counselor. They were all on board. He came from a home that didn't have running water. they didn't have a bathroom. They. When the family was doing their criminal activity, they threw the kids in a trailer that had no running water or electricity, nothing. And they gave him a pot and a door where they could, you know, get out and go to the bathroom and come back in.
00:15:14:11 - 00:15:33:08
Unknown
But they weren't believe that space. And so the idea of him just running in to use a bathroom was something we were working on. But again, he was ten at the time and really emotionally regressed, probably 7 or 8, as he was making his way. And, you know, he just went behind a tree quicker than the next thing.
00:15:33:08 - 00:15:58:00
Unknown
And I got a call, saying that my son was going to be charged with, you know, criminal sexual conduct and exposing himself and all that, and then come to get all the facts, and we're like, wow, this is crazy. So the school actually fought those charges to not have it happen. and then we had an incident with just a jelly bean, like a Tootsie Roll thing.
00:15:58:02 - 00:16:24:03
Unknown
Again, a kid had said kids could take it and and then said, hey, somebody took my candies. And then he was being charged with another criminal theft. That was the statute for removing gold fillings out of a Civil War student or a soldier. and so at that point, we moved to a different school. And like so many things, sometimes just changing the environment and the culture, he went from getting in trouble all the time, right?
00:16:24:03 - 00:16:48:21
Unknown
Not a bad kid, but just doing some hard things to being the student of the week and the student of the month and, you know, best citizen award. And all this other stuff just by going to another school district. but had we stayed in that other district, even with the assurances of the superintendent that things would get better and things like that, I don't know where we would have been.
00:16:48:21 - 00:17:17:18
Unknown
You know, we might have been further along in the criminal system, for just these minor things. And my son wasn't alone. There was a number of kids that were being pushed through that. But kids who came from foster care, or international adoption, seemed like they were being selectively targeted because they are slightly different. So like my my godson was adopted from Russia and his brother was adopted from Russia, and it seemed like they were getting in a lot of trouble too.
00:17:17:18 - 00:17:53:02
Unknown
And yet here they are doing very well in their adult lives now. So, but that's, you know, one story. The kid that I'm working with now, you know, I'm mentoring. I got a call in December, November, late November, I think, asking if there would be if I would be willing to work with a kid that had a lot of history, but was in jeopardy of really, not doing well in life, not making some great decisions and struggling and so I looked them up and said, you know, I, I think it'd be all right.
00:17:53:02 - 00:18:13:20
Unknown
And the kid was very active and like to go out and do things. And that's really how we connected and talk, which again, especially with young males, it's a lot easier than sitting across the table and, you know, you're doing an activity and and the conversation just flows. So, and then they come to find out, I thought he was in a group home, but he wasn't.
00:18:13:20 - 00:18:41:05
Unknown
He was in a, Minnesota Department of Corrections home, and he was placed there is, you know, a person under criminal, custody. He can still go to school, but he had to report there, take all these kinds of special classes. And the majority of the kids there were sex offender and and drug addicts and and things. And I'm like, why would you put a kid that is vulnerable but no criminal history in with that?
00:18:41:11 - 00:19:07:11
Unknown
And so because I asked the question the the head social worker, not the social worker who had recruited me, but the head social worker, became very defensive, didn't want to explain that. And actually kind of shut that down. And so then I worked the background to get a foster parent to take him, and we got him licensed in six weeks, and his wife and he now has custody of, this young man.
00:19:07:15 - 00:19:30:22
Unknown
So again, he's doing great. Graduated. now we got to look to the future, right? Because everything was focused on graduation. And I don't think, he sees beyond the length of his nose. No where that now the doors that are open to him. but again, that's another kid that would probably be deeper in the criminal system had he just aged out.
00:19:30:24 - 00:19:53:14
Unknown
No. High school diploma? no. No goals, no direction of where to go. I'm not sure where that would have gone. So that's just a couple examples. Yeah. Really appreciate. Yeah. Thanks for taking us into those. Yeah. And Bernie, it just sounds like when you talk about your own dad and even yourself, there's just a lot of intentionality.
00:19:53:14 - 00:20:09:10
Unknown
Is that kind of a word that just sticks out to me, too? Like, you're very intentional and really getting to the heart of these kids that most people say they're hard to place their kids, that typically youth that typically are hard to place or hard to find a placement for them. So we thank you for the role you've played and and doing it as a single foster dad.
00:20:09:10 - 00:20:32:01
Unknown
I would love to even just hear any advice or, you know, great tips that you would give to somebody considering fostering as a single parent. I would say surround yourself with good manners, good, good support, structure people that help keep you positive throughout the whole thing. learn the school systems. So we have an organization here in Minnesota called Pacer.
00:20:32:03 - 00:20:50:16
Unknown
Love to point for them because they, they work with kids that have disadvantage and are struggling, which is a lot of the kids that we have coming out of tough spaces. And, I went up and I did I think it was a three day training with them and became an advocate for helping kids in this area with their IEPs.
00:20:50:18 - 00:21:11:02
Unknown
but having a solid IEP in the school district and working, with the teachers, the educators, the psychologists, counselors and all that stuff closely, it sounds overwhelming, but it becomes so easy when you don't have to navigate all those places. And I can't even tell you now. I still have principals and assistant principals and teachers and counselors.
00:21:11:02 - 00:21:42:12
Unknown
They call me to ask updates on the kids. you know, I mean, they just kids that come from tough spaces make big impacts, people, because our goal is really is a people is people who care, and teachers are people who care is the kids make it. And when you see somebody that came from a spot, that could have been something different and you watched them thrive in a healthy structure and start to do well, that's something we can all get excited about.
00:21:42:14 - 00:22:07:16
Unknown
And I'm just grateful for all those, people in community, that really rallied around my kids and my own needs and making sure that they got the help that they needed and, and had every opportunity that they could have. yeah. Because there's, I think there's people that are still trying to understand foster care, what you know, to become licensed as parents.
00:22:07:22 - 00:22:47:03
Unknown
There's a lot of like, honest questions, like, are you even allowed to be single? You know, I mean, I've, you know, Courtney, I've heard that. We've heard that. And so, you know, a yes, you're answering yes and be. Not only is that, but you are some of the best foster parents out there are singles. yeah. I had, a personal friend of mine in South Dakota who's, an incredible single foster dad talks about that, you know, for him, it's it's actually that he's not pouring his other affections and other energies into, say, a spouse, into other biological kids that, you know, of course, that's amazing.
00:22:47:03 - 00:23:06:10
Unknown
But but that then he can channel all of his love and attention to the kids in his care. And that's that's kind of the other side of that, that you. Wow. That's actually a very huge pro to what, maybe like you're. Yeah. So I don't know if you have any further comments on any of that or your, your computer.
00:23:06:12 - 00:23:31:15
Unknown
That's a valid point. and I do have more I don't have the type of a spouse that is, directing my energies other ways, but I also don't want to diminish the fact that I have other ladies who come into my life who love to work with the kids that I have, so that they have that mother type figure and that person that they can talk to for that other perspective.
00:23:31:17 - 00:23:51:10
Unknown
Because a lot of our relationship, and especially with kids coming out of the current social media and stuff, it used to be, you know, boys and girls kind of hung out when you're young. Then you kind of go towards your own sex a little bit and you got really good at interacting with them. And then puberty happens and then you start to look at each other again.
00:23:51:12 - 00:24:13:14
Unknown
And, and then you had to learn how to navigate that kind of communication across the genders. But today, with the social media, I'm seeing more and more. There's just a struggle with that. And so to have real people in their life again, like another lady figure or something, so they're not getting just one perspective and having them literally interact with them.
00:24:13:16 - 00:24:33:08
Unknown
I have found to be, a big benefit, but I, I do agree it does give me some more flexibility. I can take off and go to a training I can do, you know, as long as I have the other supports that watch the kids and stuff and definitely feel like I poured my heart and every one of them.
00:24:33:10 - 00:24:52:21
Unknown
Yeah, that's clear talking to you. Like Courtney said, the intentionality, it seems like in everything you do and the kids that you see when they're in your view and your house, I'm sure you're pouring into everything you have. Oh my gosh, there's a lot of stuff and they get busy and then you find you're not even just raising them.
00:24:52:21 - 00:25:16:14
Unknown
You're raising you become part of a village for other people too. So I had, you know, like a big thing in our family was always to have dinner together. Every evening we had dinner together, unless they were at another friend's house having dinner with that family. but we had so many other kids around the table and conversations and, and so many of those kids are still in touch to just.
00:25:16:16 - 00:25:50:05
Unknown
It's just amazing the amount of community that will come around you. you're really not a single you're a single parent, but you're not alone. you've definitely made a huge impact. That's pretty clear. Yeah, I think that's a whole a whole. Yeah. Well, and and you've talked to about, like, the guys that, maybe age out or whatever, and then you still you're getting called you and I've talked before, so like, I think you said one time, one of your former guys called you about taxes and he's in his 20s or whatever.
00:25:50:05 - 00:26:11:04
Unknown
You know, it's like it's kind of a picture of showing that these relationships don't even end necessarily. when the systems you, you're separated or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I just got a call from a kid that's going to be turning, 26 and has to come off of a parent's insurance, and he wants me to help look at his corporate insurance and figure out the right thing.
00:26:11:04 - 00:26:37:03
Unknown
He's got diabetes and a couple things we want to make sure. That's right. you know, it's I'm honored that they call so I can do that. Yeah. So getting back into kind of where we kick this thing off with talking about your background as you know, a federal prison chaplain in that role. And there is, you know, this phrase the foster prison pipeline.
00:26:37:05 - 00:27:05:14
Unknown
it's it's been mentioned a lot around foster care because of the correlation, you know, that we see both actually in for the kids that are in foster care, that can tend towards for all kinds of reasons, having legal involvement and then post aging out of the system where that tends to lead, of course, across all other areas that we call social wounds, you know, in terms of homelessness and all the other things as well.
00:27:05:16 - 00:27:45:22
Unknown
But back to the the incarceration thing. You know, so there's so a report from the criminal law practitioner in 2023 says that by age 17, 50% of foster youth will have some involvement with illegal system. you know, and then 1 in 4 will be involved with the criminal system within two years of aging out. And and that's and then of those and this is really fascinating for those with five plus placements in foster care, we'll see a 90% involvement with the legal system.
00:27:45:24 - 00:28:22:15
Unknown
So there's this institution to institution as some others also call it. interestingly also to contrast as we all kind of digest these stats and, and kind of sit with that, is that. Only 8% of former foster youth will gain a post-secondary college degree. So I've seen articles that will say leads or titles like, you know, more likely to gain, you know, you know, criminal involvement that, you know, diploma or things like that or college degree or whatever.
00:28:22:15 - 00:28:45:01
Unknown
But so, you know, this is a huge topic you're not on to be the expert on all the, you know, definitely. I mean, it's a big thing, but in your, unique vantage to where you're both in the landscape of foster care and mentoring and then also on the other side, upstream, downstream, you know, you're kind of on all angles of this.
00:28:45:03 - 00:29:10:11
Unknown
I mean, what are some insights and experiences you've either directly gotten from your guys who have been in prison or anything that you want to speak to around this, this big issue of. So I think the biggest takeaway that I would have is the best compliment I get from the inmates that I work with. And we'll talk a little bit about some of the spaces they come from.
00:29:10:11 - 00:29:38:09
Unknown
But after they've had a chance to come in and talk and feel like they're actually being heard and treated, you know, with dignity as a human being, regardless of the crime that they committed. I've had so many of them say had I had somebody like you in my life earlier, I probably wouldn't be here because I just needed somebody that would see me and hear me because they felt like they were kids who are unseen and unheard.
00:29:38:11 - 00:30:11:12
Unknown
And so the way they got attention sometimes was through criminal activity or out of need, because they're homeless and you need to eat and and get by and because people were preying on them. You know, we have a big sexual industry out there now that's as big as the drug trade that preys on these kids. But the other part, out of that same study that you looked at is 70% of kids that come out of foster care have been arrested by the age of 26 if they if they aged out of foster care.
00:30:11:14 - 00:30:36:23
Unknown
and when you talk about the kids who had the five or more placements, that sounds for people who aren't familiar with foster care. That sounds like a lot. But a kid just coming into the foster care system typically is put into an emergency placement from an emergency placement. They're put into kind of a more holding home to figure out if they're going to stay there or move on to another family, and then possibly even to another family.
00:30:37:00 - 00:30:57:04
Unknown
And then if you do any type of reunification with the family, and then something else breaks down, that whole cycle starts again. So it doesn't take much for a kid to have six placements within a period of, I would say, two years. it can be the norm. I've had kids who have come to me who have already had, I don't even know how many placements.
00:30:57:04 - 00:31:20:21
Unknown
But you start, you get busy just trying to go through it like you've been. How many places and, you know, they come in with their little plastic bag full of clothes. Some of it doesn't fit and all this other stuff, and you're trying to tell them you're going to be here and help them, and they don't want to believe that because you're just another one that's going to give up on me or move me like everybody else is like me.
00:31:20:23 - 00:31:40:21
Unknown
And, you know how to break that cycle. But the the kids again, that come to me, they're, in the prisons a lot of times when they commit these crimes, they receive a heavier sentence, too. They don't have the means to really fight it in court. So they get a typical public defender. And so the prosecutor maximizes things.
00:31:40:21 - 00:32:03:09
Unknown
They get very poor advice. They plea the cases that are much more punitive than they might otherwise have had. So if they go to a higher custody level, many of them will be in a cell 23 hours a day out of a 24 hour day. And that'll be five days a week. and then they, seven days a week, but two days.
00:32:03:09 - 00:32:30:23
Unknown
I know that we they're in the cell 24 hours a day. So on the weekend, they might not get rec or yard time. they don't typically go to chapel or other stuff that might be paid too long, or it's just a chaplain walking, walking the cell blocks. But so when these guys actually come to us where they can come up and actually start to connect with somebody and you, you develop a reputation where you work that this guy is approachable.
00:32:31:00 - 00:32:53:09
Unknown
it's really been incredible working with so many of these people that just like, I just need to talk about this. I don't want to be in this cycle. I want to figure out how to break it. And thankfully, there's some really good organizations out there that if you connect them with the right group on the outside, when they get out of prison, they can be, many of these are faith based, places.
00:32:53:09 - 00:33:15:00
Unknown
We have one here in our own town, called Next Chapter, and also, Hiawatha Homes and things that they take care of the inmates, they take care of their families, they help them with transportation. They get to all the required meetings because, again, even though they don't prison time, they're set up to fail when they get out again, because you have to go to all these meetings and all these different things.
00:33:15:00 - 00:33:37:13
Unknown
So I don't know where those balloons came from, but, all this background, all this stuff that they have to try to meet that they can't meet, so then they get penalized again and, and then they're on violation and they get yet another charge. And so that starts to look like they're much worse, than they really are when you kind of break down the things that have happened.
00:33:37:15 - 00:34:12:15
Unknown
But it's a cost to all of society. We're paying, you know, the, the place I work, you know, our budget is the largest budget in the Department of Justice is just incarceration. So we we can do better. There's other models in the world where they do, more restorative justice kind of programs. And when a person is returned to their placement in society for having done their time, the received back as a whole person, not as a person who's still broken and has to do all this, follow up.
00:34:12:15 - 00:34:38:23
Unknown
And, you know, we're talking non nonviolent first time offenders, you know, things that we're why do we need all the, all the added custody that goes on, to where they can continue to fail and succeed. And I'm glad you also didn't mention the cost because that is, you know, I mean, there's the heart side of this, and then there's that's just the financial taxpayer thing as well, that this this is everybody's issue.
00:34:38:23 - 00:35:03:16
Unknown
I mean, that, you know, I think is, you know, so if the average is 23,000 annually, age out of the foster care system, and I think per, on average it's $300,000 per, you know, young adult in that age is out in the course of their lifetime for whether it is incarceration or homelessness or some of these things that then become issues to fix later.
00:35:03:18 - 00:35:29:01
Unknown
It's so I mean, so, yeah. And the loss of productivity we had, we had them in a more positive thing, what they would have put back in the society versus society having to pay to their care. And that's another great point. I think I read a study that it actually does kind of project, to your point, not just in the cost, but the projected cost or contribution, and it's in the billions.
00:35:29:01 - 00:35:50:04
Unknown
I mean, it's not even like it's major. So yeah. And the interesting thing is, a lot of the studies show that the inmates that do get out and do secure, a good work, a good place to work. And they have this new moral compass, you know, kind of faith lens that helps them to make the better decisions because they really did work on it during their time.
00:35:50:04 - 00:36:14:13
Unknown
They really did, make their life better, actually. Are incredibly loyal employees with high output and are the ones who stay the 20 years, even in a corporate culture. Now that most people don't stay, they just become very grateful for the for the small things that we don't always, see ourselves.
00:36:14:15 - 00:36:37:00
Unknown
Yeah. And I think about these this foster to prison pipeline and these foster youth that are aging out, you know, most of the time they were wounded in relationships, and they're going to be healed and relationships. And, you know, it's one caring adult, not two. It takes one. you know, I just challenge those that are listening to this, to hear Bernie story and being courage.
00:36:37:00 - 00:36:55:14
Unknown
And if you're a single dad or mom or if you know somebody that's a single dad or mom that you think would be a great foster parent, I guess I challenge you to let them know, share this podcast, and let them know that it is possible. A lot of people have a lot of myths and misconceptions, and one of those is, like Travis mentioned, thinking you can't foster as a single parent.
00:36:55:16 - 00:37:12:20
Unknown
and again, just the difference that we can make being that one person that's going to pour into that youth and support them and help them and guide them, whether that is adoption or if it's just being that mentorship and being with them through to adulthood so that they don't end up, you know, in our prison system and, and costing all that money.
00:37:12:21 - 00:37:28:15
Unknown
I love Bernie. Just all the different things that you've shared and even sharing how you still pour into some of those kids years later, because that's what they really need. They need that relationship to help them, support them, guide them down the road to a place they can go to for Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner. call about their taxes.
00:37:28:16 - 00:37:50:06
Unknown
You know, it's definitely a need and makes a big difference. Yeah. And those of us who had that growing up ourselves, you know, you grow up and you thought at some point your parents weren't that smart. And then as you went to college and started to start living as an adult, you're like, oh my gosh, they're brilliant. And you went back to them all the time to get their advice on how to do things.
00:37:50:08 - 00:38:14:02
Unknown
And that's how we keep moving and being better as an adult. But these kids at age out, they really don't have that. And and even to the point, like of this other boy who just is still in foster care, he'll turn 18 here next week. Actually, this week, there was not one of that team, his ten members of his team that showed up to his graduation.
00:38:14:04 - 00:38:31:15
Unknown
even though they were saying this is the number one priority. So again, it's something to be in the system or the these are jobs to a lot of these people. There's some very good and very caring people out there. But for a lot of them they're overworked, you know, give very little time themselves. They might have had a crisis that night.
00:38:31:17 - 00:38:58:10
Unknown
And yet out of ten people entrusted to his care, no one showed up for his graduation. so. But I was there, and some other people who care about them, but I messaged. I had taken some of. It's kind of funny. I took some pictures of the graduation as it was happening, because I got there early and got one of those great spots that, you know, crazy mothers get sometimes, but somehow I was the one that got the perfect spot where I could see what he was going up and get all this stuff.
00:38:58:12 - 00:39:16:21
Unknown
And so I get all these pictures. And so I didn't think he had his cell phone on them, and I started sending them to him so he would have those when he got back to his car. And all of a sudden I get this text back saying, are you here? And I'm like, yeah, you crazy kid. Like, why wouldn't I be here?
00:39:16:21 - 00:39:35:13
Unknown
This is a huge accomplishment. I told you, I'm going to be here. I'm here. And he wrote back, thank goodness. and and then, and then at the end of it, we're out there and he's got family and others who did show up, and he's like, I want to make sure I get a picture with with Bernie.
00:39:35:15 - 00:40:05:01
Unknown
And when you looked at the pictures, there was, I think, 10 or 12 pictures, and a lot of them had him holding his diploma hand around the person. Big smile. But the one he had with me, like the diploma was down by his side and it was, you know, just like this warm, like he just looked so comfortable, like, like, like this was a person who came alongside of me, call me down, heard me help bring these positive people into my life.
00:40:05:03 - 00:40:19:04
Unknown
And now here I am. And I mean the people I looked at, I picked up on it right away, like, oh my gosh, you know, do you see the difference of how he's standing with you? Like, look at that. And I was like, you know, there was 2 or 3 pictures, you know, because they still happen pretty quick.
00:40:19:06 - 00:40:46:18
Unknown
And they were, they were all like that. And I was, you know, I was very moved by that. But I think it goes back to that. Oh, you're here. Thank goodness. You know, like and it meant that's that is unbelievable that that is exactly what when Courtney said wounded by relationships heal by relationships think that was a picture of the healing of the,
00:40:46:20 - 00:41:12:17
Unknown
Wow. I mean, that's the story is just amazing. Well, Father Greg Boyle, who works with a lot of people who come from difficult spaces, and if anybody ever wants to see another great podcast or something, listen to him or catch a YouTube. But he said for him, when he looks at faith, faith is all about love. So we have our love for God, but we're called to pour that love that he gives us back into each other.
00:41:12:19 - 00:41:48:04
Unknown
And then he says, from this great pain can come, great hope. And then when we have hope, our lives can be open to all the new changes that are coming in into our our life. So traumatized kids and adults, they need to understand their wounds inside and outside themselves. And he speaks to this point and says, the best person that can help with that is, again, an adult who comes alongside, can be a mentor, a therapist, and sometimes a mental health professional or others.
00:41:48:04 - 00:42:11:21
Unknown
But, you know, whatever those resources are, wherever you can be a part of that, I just encourage you to, you know, put aside, I'm not sure I'm the guy, like, I was the guy after I did my adoption training, like, I don't think so. But it just continue to weigh on me. Like you say, there's 23,000 kids aging out, and if I can't, I can't save them all.
00:42:11:21 - 00:42:35:00
Unknown
You know, it's like the story of the man walking the beach and throwing the star vision and somebody says, or, you know, what are you doing? You can't save all the starfish. And he goes, but to each one that I get in there, like it was important to them. So for any kid we can come alongside. And again, if you're not going to do the foster care, you know, be a mentor, be work with another organization that matters, get involved in coaching.
00:42:35:00 - 00:43:02:08
Unknown
Get involved in, helping kids, you know, being a tutor after school or there's so many places you can step in and come alongside a kid. And just by doing that, it might really change your perspective. what it is. You know, I come alongside another person that that doesn't have that. And to see the effect that they have takes in a child when you when you look at like ace points.
00:43:02:08 - 00:43:27:08
Unknown
Right. Adverse childhood events. Most of the kids that I've worked with, they say if you have four out of ten of those, your chances of doing well in life are diminished right dramatically. Most of the kids I work with when I have them go through that list 38, nine, sometimes all ten. But the amazing thing of that study, and really another great takeaway messages, is what do they say about adverse events?
00:43:27:08 - 00:43:58:04
Unknown
How do you turn those around? One positive adult in your life. So the Courtney's point she had said that earlier, one positive adult can negate that. Not that the pain and that won't go away. But now they can be looked at with the support of another helpful, helpful person to say, okay, this was not my fault. I was a victim in a lot of this stuff, but now how do I move forward and have the life that I'm called to have and to have a person?
00:43:58:04 - 00:44:20:17
Unknown
I can model that for you. Well, Bernie, we just thank you. Thank you for being that one caring adult to all the youth that you have been. and I hope you I think you do recognize that it has made a difference. Well, I'm one of the I want to share. It's kind of funny, like when I, when I left the ministry and I was in this medical sales, you go to meetings, right?
00:44:20:19 - 00:44:38:00
Unknown
So when you're in the meetings, I'm taking calls, you know, with my kids every evening. I'm checking in with them to see how they're doing. You know, the, the people that I have watching them and stuff and, you know, being that, that trusted parent, like, you know, when my dad travel, he was always in touch with us every day.
00:44:38:02 - 00:45:05:19
Unknown
and these parents would hear these conversations, these other adults that would be around me. And I had three other parents who adopted. So I had wanted adopted two out of China, another one of adopted here domestically, another one adopted domestically. But they said that the reason they did that was they would hear these conversations and it just touch their heart that, you know, they had they had kids or they had others who had grown up, but they still had room in their home.
00:45:05:19 - 00:45:24:13
Unknown
So even like this family that I recruited for this boy, he was one of his teachers. So he knew this boy and he knew that he needed had a need. And the boy says, could you talk to this teacher? Because I think he wants to try to help. And I got him connected with a really good agency. And and he was motivated to do it.
00:45:24:13 - 00:45:46:06
Unknown
And so we got him licensed as a foster parent in six weeks. The agency that was supposed to be taking care of this kid never even started the process. We went all around to another group, got this thing done, and then he put the packet down. And the state was already aware that this kid was not in the most home like home, least restrictive environment.
00:45:46:06 - 00:46:13:13
Unknown
He was in a juvenile correctional institution, being treated as a criminal. So they were under pressure and they did place him in this home. And he's done well. And like I said, he now graduated. So there's a lot of abuse. We can have lots of channels, even if we're not the direct person involved with this care. You know, with the child itself, initially we can still help in many other areas.
00:46:13:15 - 00:46:33:05
Unknown
Yeah, that's a great, great sort of close to this. in the show notes, we'll have links for ways to get involved, whether that is if you're curious, after hearing this about, you know, first steps to engage, maybe becoming a foster parent got some links and great resources to check out, including a blog that kind of walks us through some of those questions that we might ask.
00:46:33:05 - 00:46:50:18
Unknown
And what's it look like if one of us is a spouse or partner is into this, but not the other one? Like how do we navigate some of this? There's also we'll have links about just other ways to your point journey of just supporting foster parents. That's as big as being a foster parent, because they need that and they need to be well supported.
00:46:50:18 - 00:47:08:15
Unknown
Otherwise they're not going to last and kids are going to continue to have placement after placement after placement, which is part of the systemic problem. So thank you so much for your wisdom and insight and just encouragement, for all of us to get involved and find their place and look at your life and see what you've done.
00:47:08:15 - 00:47:31:08
Unknown
And if you have any closing words, might be my basic thank you to to Courtney and her being on and in her example with adoption. Travis, I know you've adopted as well. And then also to, you know, America's kids belong and the work that they're doing and trying to have these resources. I didn't have these resources when I first started.
00:47:31:10 - 00:47:54:00
Unknown
I think a lot of this was even, you know, before there was all these YouTubes and everything, you know, I mean, that's kind of how fast this is all. Come on. But you don't have to try to, figure it all out. You can look at these different resources that can show you kind of the ways that work, and then you can call to the many of these different organizations, too, and just say, hey, I'm running into a roadblock here.
00:47:54:02 - 00:48:15:16
Unknown
you know what? What can I do? And there's probably going to be somebody else out there that they can quickly connect you with. So don't feel like it's overwhelming. Just get started. Start with your local county or independent agency. again, even through the schools with tutoring or anything. And you're going to start coming in contact with these kids and your heart's going to be changed.
00:48:15:16 - 00:48:34:22
Unknown
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00:48:34:24 - 00:49:01:21
Unknown
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