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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 66 (Matt Erickson)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Matt Erickson.
Matt is a pastor, writer, speaker, and disciple of Jesus. Since 2010, Matt has served as the senior pastor at Eastbrook Church, an urban multiracial church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Matt received a Bachelor of Arts degree in English and Christian Education from Wheaton College, a master of Divinity degree from Northern Theological Seminary, and a doctor of Ministry degree from Western Theological Seminary in connection with the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination.
He's the author of the recently published book, The Pastor As Gardner, A Renewed Vision for Ministry. Matt is married to Kelly, who has served in various ministry roles and operates her own spiritual direction practice. Matt and Kelly are parents of three children all in college or beyond.
So thanks for joining me today, Matt, uh, excited to [00:01:00] talk about your book.
Matt Erickson: Great to be with you, Andrew. It's a huge honor. Thanks for the invitation.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And like we were talking before we started recording, you know, when I, I saw that your book was heavily influenced by Norman Wirzba, by Eugene Peterson, Wendell Berry, um, and all the rest of the people, I was like, okay, we gotta talk.
'cause I think we're, there's some kindred spirits, you know, as, as we read a lot of the same
Matt Erickson: Yeah. People. I love it. Yeah, no, I, I got that sense when we exchange emails and I'm looking forward to the conversation, jumping into some of that territory.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, so your book is about the pastor as gardener, and so, but you write as one who loves gardening, and so I'm curious as we begin, like what's your, what's the origin story?
What's where, where did the love of garden. Come from to the degree. So you want to write a book about this metaphor?
Matt Erickson: Yeah, I mean the, from the kind of real life side of it, um, uh, my wife Kelly and I have been, uh, gardeners for a really, really long time. And then it also goes back into both of our families.
Uh, [00:02:00] Kelly's dad was a, a big gardener in their family life, um, when she grew up outside of Detroit, Michigan. And then her dad was from Oregon, so that was just a big part of, of his family. And then the same with my dad, uh, who grew up born in central Illinois, and, um, the son and grandson of, uh, Scandinavian immigrants.
My, my great grandparents were tenant farmers in central Illinois. And so that's just always been kind of in our environment as a family. I grew up helping my dad and mom, uh, with my older brother in garden plots that we rented different places as well as their own yards. And then, yeah, just. Just a couple weekends ago, Kelly and I were getting our raised bed gardens already.
I just added a couple new ones in in our yard to be able to get ready for our planting and, uh, harvesting hopefully as the summer and fall goes along. So that's just a big part of, of our life in connectivity. Um, and then growing up in the Midwest, obviously people know there's [00:03:00] a lot of farmland around.
And I grew up in an area that was where John Deere's international headquarters was. So that was just kind of the atmosphere, even though I grew up in a city.
Andrew Camp: And so being in Milwaukee, I'm guessing, you know, that you're growing season's not very long or, you know, it's, it's tough. Like Flagstaff, we're tough.
We're at 7,000 feet, you know, we're still experiencing freezing temperatures at night. So like what, what's your favorite thing to grow?
Matt Erickson: Oh man. Yeah, we, uh, today when we're recording this, the temperatures had just plunged back to freezing in Milwaukee after we had gotten some things ready. So we're hoping everything's gonna be okay, but it's, it's kind of erratic in the spring here.
Yeah. And our growing zone is probably totally different than yours, but in the sense of, um, we have to plant later. It's a lot smaller amount of time. Um, you know, we, we try to grow. Pretty much anything we can, um, one of our big, hopefully will be a big crop this year is just a ton of [00:04:00] lettuce and kale.
Andrew Camp: Mm.
Yep.
Matt Erickson: Uh, my wife is vegan, so, um, kale is like her, her go-to for pretty much anything that we're having.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Matt Erickson: And then tomatoes. Tomatoes are just fantastic. We've gotten some wonderful heirloom tomato uh, plants. Um. Through seeds, but also from some friends. So being able to grow those sort of things. And uh, I just peaked at the garden yesterday afternoon and our, our, uh, onions are already like, we could probably cut some things off of those and get those ready to go right now 'cause they've been in the ground for a long time.
Yeah, we love, we love growing everything. We put some flowers in and along them as well so that we can get our pollinators alongside of the gardens and it's just a ton of fun.
Andrew Camp: I appreciate it. And so you love gardening, but you've also then pastored for, for decades, both as you know, in large established churches.
But I think, if I remember correctly, you've been a church planter. Yep. , And so what stirred in you that caused you to think we needed a different metaphor to think about what it means to be a [00:05:00] pastor.
Matt Erickson: Yeah, there was a a few different kind of crisis moments for me, Andrew.
Um. That kinda led me into some conversation around this. Some of it was the, you know, the pandemic time really was destabilizing for everybody. Not just pastors, but for everybody in a specific way for pastors, you know, what was the church about? What did it mean to be doing ministry? What was it gonna look like?
Um, and then, um, for us as a multiracial church, you know, in the wake of the pandemic, there was a big national. Awareness, I would say, and conversation. Uh, and some tension obviously around racial justice issues. Things that were already very much a part of our lives, but maybe just kind of brought out to the surface around George Floyd and things like that.
So I was asking some significant questions about what it meant to be the church, what was public witness. Um, through that I had some tensions in our church that that caused difficulty. And then also had a dear [00:06:00] friend who went through a major moral failure as a pastor. And I just started asking questions about the way that pastors were being formed and nurtured and what they were doing.
And, uh, as I was searching around reading a ton, um, found myself going back to scripture and entering into the doorway. Of agrarian imagery through Paul's statement in one Corinthians chapter three, verse five, I planted Apollos water, but God is the one who gives the growth. And I think I had heard of that always as a church planting scripture passage.
Yeah. And I realized that was not what Paul was talking about there. And it just opened up for me some things in my imagination that then took me from Genesis through Revelation. Uh, just searching out the agrarian imagery, the agricultural imagery in a new way. And that just kind of, I don't know how else to describe it.
I don't wanna be too dramatic about it, but it really just set my imagination a fire. Yeah. Um, and helped me think about ministry. [00:07:00] Through those images as I got in touch with, uh, the way God talks about Israel as a planting of the Lord, as Jesus is the vine in the branches, but also, um, there's some gardening imagery connected to Jesus at the end of the gospel of John that became very rich for me.
So all of that I think really helped me. Um, and a time of crisis gained some new vitality for how I was thinking about ministry, but also I think just even my own discipleship life too.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. Say more about the discipleship aspect. 'cause you know, your book is the pastor as gardener, and so many of my listeners aren't pastors, and so they're like, okay, why?
Why should I, why should I stay listening if, you know? Yeah. Um, and so I'm curious, like for your own, like in your own soul, like how has this image cultivated a, a deeper love for Jesus?
Matt Erickson: Yeah, I, I mean, I, I hope, and I'll just say this to the side, Andrew, I don't know if this is gonna see the light of day, but I am working on kind of a, uh, an approach to some of [00:08:00] this that it's more accessible, um, almost thinking of it as like a Henry now and.
Spiritual life type of book, uh, yeah. Around, uh, spirituality that's connected to these agrarian images. We'll see if that happens or not, right? Um, but for me it's really helped me, um, think a lot about certain concepts that have become powerful for me to think of Jesus saying, unless a. A grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies.
It, it, it's only a grain of wheat, but if it does go into the earth and it becomes many seeds, that's become very evocative for me, for thinking about the spiritual life. What does it mean to die? Um, what does it mean to go into the soil? Um, what does it mean to let God do hidden things in our lives that we may not see for a long time, maybe even for years or decades that he's doing?
Um, how can we trust God with those sorts of things? What does it mean that nothing in our lives is wasted, but actually even things that seem like they're dying in our lives or our spiritual life become [00:09:00] compost in which the next growth happens. Um, that's really helped me 'cause I think I've experienced things where I've experienced failure or grief.
And to just see those through the lens of compost has actually been very healing for me. And to feel like, okay, this is, I don't have to just view this as a negative. It is painful, but there's something good here. You know, images of, of the, uh, pruning that happens. Jesus says that God as the gardener in John 15, that he also p prunes branches.
And that that's grace. There's a grace in that of God's pruning work. That's helped me think about discipline in a different way or suffering in a different way. And then even the fruitfulness, um, you know, there's things in our spiritual life that we want to nurture to growth. We can do certain things, and this is true for the pastoral side of it too, but there's a lot of things that we just don't have control over.
But God is still doing something in our lives and he can bring fruitfulness even where we might not expect it. And [00:10:00] uh, I think also the imagery of sowing seeds. In the spiritual life, into the lives of other people, pouring into others, um, that, that no plant exists kind of, and as, as an end to itself, but is actually intended to kind of carry something out into a, a future generation or future progeny in a sense.
Yeah, I think that makes me think about spiritual. Um, children and, and the way that we pour into people's lives. There's a lot there for me that's been just like, it's like my imagination just got opened up and it's really mm-hmm. So much fun.
Andrew Camp: It's fun when you, when something catches the imagination, whether it's a Bible verse or an author's quote, that just helps you see scripture.
In new ways that unlock something. It like, you see that was always there, but you never noticed it as in in depth. You know, it's always, you know, it's like when you're looking for the car and you're thinking about buying a Nissan Altima, all of a sudden everyone's driving a Nissan Altima. You know?
Matt Erickson: You see it everywhere.
Andrew Camp: You see it [00:11:00] everywhere, you know, and so I think, you know how you described the garden. This, these ideas is similar to me. And you know how I started seeing food everywhere play out in scripture. And so it's, it's fun to see you become enlivened as you talk about it. 'cause it, yeah, I, I resonate deeply.
Mm-hmm.
Matt Erickson: Love
it
Andrew Camp: with that journey. Um, but we also find ourselves, you know, sort of at this macro level in the culture. Um, and you write early on that culturally we're, we're a culture without memory uprooted from place and lost in a swirling ocean of technological distraction and disembodied existence.
Hmm. Um, that's a mouthful. And, and you know, like, but, but I think it, you know, if we're honest, we're like, okay, that, that resonates. So like, can you unpack that a little and then. I'd love to hear how the garden might then come into play with the these ideas.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. I mean, I think we all feel that something isn't right [00:12:00] and what is it that isn't right?
It's not one thing, it's multiple things. But I mean, definitely the disembodied existence. Um, I mean, I love, I love the fact that you and I are having this conversation right now, uh, through, uh, technological means. Yep. And we're gonna share that with other people. I, I think that's a gift. Um, and at the same time.
The way that this has almost become default, um, especially post pandemic for, for meetings, for conversations with people. Um, I, I just mentioned to you, I just did a, a premarital counseling with my wife and all four of the people involved in that. We're all in different places on a Zoom call and it helps us, but also there is.
Kind of this sense that we can be anywhere, we can do anything and it doesn't have a cost. And I think we're actually carrying the cost inside of ourselves, in our minds, in our mental health. And then the disconnection from the natural world, which we are called in Genesis one to be, um, having [00:13:00] cultivation for development.
Mm-hmm. Uh, caretaking stewardship, um. Our disconnection from that I think is actually damaging to ourselves as people and, and also the, the rootlessness, um, in relation to, to physical places. Um, you're in Flagstaff. I'm in Milwaukee. These are very different places from each other.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Matt Erickson: And, and that's significant.
And I think we don't pay attention to that. The increasing way we just get en enmeshed and, uh, subsumed into technology and online life sometimes disconnects us from the significance of our place and region and the geography and even how that plays out. In generational living and things like that. So, um, so I'm trying to say in the spiritual life place is important.
Um, our geography is important. Uh, the way that that shapes our lives is important. A connection to the created world is important. And in ministry, um, I'm using some of that in a metaphorical sense. [00:14:00] Yeah. To help us unpack environment, um, context, soil, things like that in relation to the ministry world. But that's true of spiritual life in general too.
Andrew Camp: As we think about, you know, community context, whether that's, you know, a small group we're part of, or a church we're part of, or like, what, what does the garden provide us that can help us then keep us attuned to the specificity of, of our own life? 'cause like you said, Milwaukee's different than Flagstaff.
And so like, you know, how, how does the garden shape us so that we then. Might be more faithful, um, disciples of Jesus.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. So I would say that, um, I talk a lot about soil as kind of the place in which we do ministry, but for those who are not in pastoral ministry, some other form of ministry, you could just refer this to the sense of which the place where you're living your disciple life with Christ.
Yeah. You know, your [00:15:00] spiritual formation location and so. You know, the, the attentiveness to, um. The, the physical place. I'll just talk about Milwaukee a little bit. Um, yeah, I'm not a Milwaukee native. I grew up in the Mississippi River, valley of Western Illinois, but I've lived in Milwaukee since 2003 and I feel like, you know, the last 20 some years have been an education in this space, this place, Milwaukee.
Uh, I don't know what reputation it has to other people, but it's actually a wonderful city in so many ways. Um, close to Lake Michigan urban, but not so big that you can't get around. Um. It's got a, a wonderful diversity to it in so many ways in the city, even though the state of Wisconsin isn't as diverse, but also has some challenging things.
You know, it's been on some of the top 10 lists of, um, difficult things, educational disparities. Uh, the book evicted by, um, uh, Matthew Desmond is it takes place in Milwaukee. [00:16:00] All of his, uh, studies are from Milwaukee. And so there's economic disparities and it's often listed as one of the most segregated cities in the United States because of the way it was settled and the great migration, um, and, and before and, and afterwards.
So being aware of how that impacts my city, um, the way that I do ministry as a pastor, what I need to pay attention to, the secret stories that are underneath the ground that shape people's lives, I think that's really, really important. That's one way that I think about the soil. Of the spiritual life or ministry.
And then I also think about it in terms of the story of, of, you know, my church. I think about it in terms of a church's story. Um, sometimes pastors will come into a church or will enter into a church space or a kind of a religious space, and we'll just think in kind of non. Specific terms, uh, we just need to plug in this program or this model.
And [00:17:00] it's so important to pay attention to the history, the culture, the personality of a specific church or community, and then also if it's part of a larger denomination or just even thinking through the North American realities Church in decline, things like that. Yeah, so I just think the soil in terms of the locality region.
Geography. And then also soil in terms of the, the specific church or community, really, really shapes us more than we realize. And sometimes we just don't pay attention to it as much. Now
Andrew Camp: you mean we we're not attuned to soil, like we don't like to think about soil like Yeah. And so, yeah. But soil is, there's such richness and beauty, you know?
Mm-hmm. And, um. You referenced Matthew Evans work soil in your book and I picked it up to start reading. 'cause I'm, I'm intrigued by soil because I sell wine and you know, and I love thinking about soil. Like what did you learn about soil [00:18:00] as in your research that sort of. Transformed how you thought about soil versus just say dirt.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. Wow. That's, that's a huge discussion actually, you know? Yeah. It's so interesting that you asked that question. Um, and I'm not a, I'm not a soil expert by any means, right? Right. I'm a, I'm a pastor, but I think the things that I caught along the way, I mean. Wendell Berry talks a lot about soil erosion.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Matt Erickson: And his writings. And so Barry is, I know someone we both admire and appreciate so much, but when you think about, um, the physical aspects of how soil is going away and you're losing nutrients, it's getting washed into our. Rivers and down into the oceans, and we're losing some of those things. It, it actually connects for me within how we live our life out.
And so if we're living a rootless way, we are actually oftentimes contributing to the erosion in a sense of the vitality, in the nutrition of [00:19:00] spaces. Um, there is something about being in a place for a long time. So roots help soil stay in space. Um. I've been at my church now for 15 years, uh, almost 16. Um, I've been in Milwaukee since 2003 in, in three different church settings, and I've been here.
I didn't expect I was gonna be here this long, to be honest. I think when I came into my first role that brought me up to work with university students, I thought, you know, I don't, I didn't think of it in terms of a stepping stone, but I think that, if I'm honest, that might've been a mindset that I had.
But I've just chosen, you know, for this season of time now, 23 years to be in this space, learn this space and let it shape me. And I think that's done good things to me and maybe some, maybe some painful things. Yeah. But I think it's also enabled me to be a more rooted person, even in my congregation and in my community.
Um, so I think that that's one aspect of it. And I think also, I mean, you, you're talking about, uh, that book on soil, [00:20:00] um. He talks and I use one quote in that you probably remember reading. It might be how you found it, but he talks about how um, the food that you eat tastes like the soil in which it was grown.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Matt Erickson: And also reflects in some ways the way that some cared, like a farmer cared for that soil. Wow. I mean to think about the personality or the life of a farmer going into the soil, to to actually then be reflected in the food again, very imaginatively evocative for me about how we live our spiritual lives or how we do ministry.
That it really does. It's like we're pouring our lives into that and somebody who cares for soil. Uh, we were just remediating our soil, getting ready, our, our raised beds. Putting compost in it. Putting manure in it. Mm-hmm. Helping it get ready. It needs things. And so it takes time to do the unsexy work of caring for soil.
Yeah. It [00:21:00] takes effort and attention, but I don't wanna say it bears dividends. Uh, I, I don't want to use monetized nu uh, terms for that. It really though does bring fruitfulness when we pay attention to those things. So I think that's another thing that maybe stood out to me. I, I'd love to hear your thoughts upon it, Andrew.
'cause you probably thought about it more than I have, even,
Andrew Camp: I don't know. Yeah. Um, no. 'cause soil is beautiful and like you said. Um, it brings forth something different. 'cause it's easy just to use as we think about gardening. You know, we're recording this in mid-April. You know, people across the country are probably thinking about gardens at this point, right?
Mm-hmm. Right. You know, it's the season and it's easy to use, um, processed fertilizers, you know. Mm-hmm. Go to a big store to get, you know, seedlings already there, you know. And so it's easy to do that, probably more so than it is to compost, to enrich the soil in a way that is healthy, that can [00:22:00] actually be regenerative and generational, um mm-hmm for who we are.
And so it's a lot harder work than a capitalized way of doing it. But what brings forth is way more beautiful. Like we were talking about heirloom tomatoes. When you taste an heirloom tomato that is nurtured and grown with care and respect and nurture, like it is a beautiful piece of work of art versus a hot house tomato that you pick up from a Kroger grocery store in December.
Um, and so you should be able to taste the difference, but it's harder work.
Matt Erickson: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: And that's, I think, many times, whether individually. As we think about our spiritual lives, our communally as pastors, you know, being a former pastor, it's like, okay, we gotta keep up with the results. We gotta get more of this, we gotta do more of this.
And you know, it's Andy Root's work of accumulation and driven [00:23:00] by this desire for more that we get caught up in and we lose sight of the, the slower, more beautiful work of cultivating something that that will last.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. I love that word slower that you mentioned. We, we both, you know, we talked about slow church did briefly me mentioned it before we started our, our call here.
And that slowness
Andrew Camp: mm-hmm.
Matt Erickson: Is so against the grain in our, our day and time. And I think if we're honest, I mean at least I'll be honest, I'd prefer to be fast. Yeah. Uh, it just like, I've kind of, I think everything in our culture kind of has trained me at least to be that way. And it is hard to slow down.
It's hard to give time for things, but, but when you talk about soil, yeah. You, you're thinking, you're not thinking about this season. You're, you are, but you're thinking about next season. You're thinking about five years from now. And, um, and even the work of compost. It's all about what's coming [00:24:00] in the future.
It's really not for the present moment. And so it does take this slow attentiveness, a different pacing.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Matt Erickson: Which I think we all desire, but Oh, so hard to get out of the, the fast pace
Andrew Camp: for sure. And I think it's how to do it in an incremental ways too. Mm-hmm. That are, you know, not jarring, you know?
Yeah. 'cause it's like, you know, it's one thing, okay. I'm tired of the rat race. I'm tired of the speed, like. You know, you can't just unplug, you know, and you can't just lead people to unplug. And so it's like, how do you do that incremental work, you know, to, to do it? And again, it goes back to gardening. Like your garden's not gonna become healthy in one season.
So it's, that's again, like how do we slowly nurture a raised bed in our backyards?
Matt Erickson: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know, the soil is living and teeming with more life than we can ever imagine or see.
Matt Erickson: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Um, and so, yeah, like it's
Matt Erickson: absolutely,[00:25:00]
Andrew Camp: it's beautiful. And yet, like, I think many of us think, okay, I, I, I want to slow down. I want to have cultivate a soil, beautiful soil, but I don't know how, or like, what's a step, you know? And so like mm-hmm. As you've thought about that, as you've led your church. Um, for a decade and a half. Like what, how do you help people then start maybe looking at a different way or raising an imagination?
Cultivating an imagination? Um
Matt Erickson: hmm. Yeah. I would say one thing that I would answer, and I feel like it could sound trite, but I don't mean it that way, is prayer.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Matt Erickson: Um, and what I mean by prayer is. To give ourselves space for the slowing of prayer. Uh, one thing that we've just started to put into place for our, our staff in the last, I don't know, year, year and a half maybe, is um, [00:26:00] we do sort of a, a midday Wednesday prayer gathering and it tends to be pretty contemplative, meditative, and.
It's only 30 minutes. It's not some fancy thing. We're not conquering the world. We're not trying to, we're just trying to get ourselves back into remembering that as we do ministry work, we're also just disciples. And so I think that has almost become a, um, a slowing moment for our, our staff team in the middle of the week.
And I think. Um, I think that can, can be really healing. And I have friends who will do, you know, like the different hours of prayer during the course of a day. And again, they're not necessarily pausing for an hour and a half, it might be 10 minutes.
Andrew Camp: Right?
Matt Erickson: And it's really just to help us in that place, be attentive to God sometimes just attentive to ourselves, what's happening in ourselves and, and attentive to our day so that we don't get caught up.
And the frenetic rhythms of everything that's [00:27:00] going on. So that, that's just one thing that I think I might say. And another thing that that sounds, uh, again, it feels simple. Um, I talk a lot in the book at different places about attention.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Matt Erickson: And the, in the, the importance of attention in our spiritual lives in ministry.
And I think we all know right now that, um, in the attention economy, um, that we are being trained away from being attentive and, uh, I think in. A necessary part of that is we sell our attention off to, uh, the lowest bidder. We are also losing our ability to be aware of our own pace. And so, um, I, I would, I'm not a, I'm not a Luddite, but I would say being attentive to the way that we're giving our attention away, which sounds funny.
Uh, being attentive to, um, the amount of time we're spending online or with our smartphones. Just [00:28:00] again, not, I'm not an anti-technology person, otherwise I wouldn't be here with you. Right. Um, but, but I just believe it requires a tremendous amount of stewardship of our mental space, our heart space, and that helps us slow down just by being aware of that.
Um, that's, there's a couple things I would say at a practical level. I, I don't know if that sounded practical.
Andrew Camp: It, it, it is. 'cause I think the, you know, attention is, like you said, everybody's, everything is screaming for our attention, you know? Mm-hmm. As we think even about how to be faithful. In this time, like, you know, the, the news grabs our attention and every issue re requires a response from us.
You know, or, um, and so like, but I think the beauty of a garden is that my attention, yes, I need to pay attention to the world events, but how do I pay attention to the Flagstaff events For me personally, how do you pay attention to Milwaukee events? My, my daughter gave a presentation, you know, to tell a story, like [00:29:00] gave a presentation to the school board recently about like her robotics team and you know, it was great, you know, fourth grader being able to speak to the school board and share highlights, you know, it's super cool, but I had to, I, I was able to sit through public comments, um, and Arizona education is, is a mess at times and Flagstaff is, is dealing with some major issues.
But it really helped me under like, to sit through that. I was like, oh, this was actually really beneficial. 'cause it directly impacts, you know, my kids, it impacts me, it impacts my community, you know, and how do we get good teachers and increase pay and there's cuts. Like it's all, it's a mess, you know? But to sit through it helped me understand more local issues versus.
You know, just paying attention to Iran. Um, yes. Which again, requires attention, but also so does my local government.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. Yeah. It can be both. And with that, yeah. Uh, [00:30:00] but oftentimes the, the global or the headlines in the national scene sort of overtake everything else and we miss out on some of the things happening down the street.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And I think too, you had this great quote that I think ties into the attention aspect. It's from Wendell Berry about like the difference between an exploiter and a nurturer. Mm-hmm. Um, where you quote, you know, where Wendell says the standard of the exploiter is efficiency. The standard of the nurturer is care. The exploiter goal is money, profit, the nurture's goal is health, his land's health, his own, his families, his communities, his countries.
Um, and so I think as we pay attention, I think. Nurture, you know, developing a nurturing stance and posture will will only help.
Matt Erickson: Yeah, I mean, Wendell Berry is such an amazing prophet and, uh, also a voice for deep care.
I mean, [00:31:00] soul care, whatever language you want to put on some of this. I mean, that those, I mean, that quote and some other things have just really been extraordinarily helpful for me. Um, I ask myself, am I a pastor who's an exploiter or am I a nurturer? Um, every pastor wants to say we're nurturing and, and yet, um, there are ways that sometimes we might be not providing really true care.
And, um, and what does that look like? How do we, you know, if we have to measure things, how, how do we determine that? Is it just certain people within our congregation? Is it the whole congregation? Is it the community around the congregation? Um, all of those things are, are so important. And yeah, just the attentiveness that enables you, uh, to provide care is, is key to that.
Andrew Camp: And so, yeah, 'cause all of us would say. None of us, you know, I'm not an exploiter, you know, I, I I'm a, you know, but, [00:32:00] but there, yeah. I feel that maybe, right? Like, you know, like, 'cause the language is jarring and, and Wendell mm-hmm. Is very purposeful with his language, so he doesn't choose that word lightly.
Matt Erickson: Right.
Andrew Camp: But it would be easy to be like, well, I'm, I, I'm not exploiting, but are there more subtle ways that. Maybe that mindset and exploitation mindset shows up in church or in life that, mm-hmm. We need to be aware of that. Like, again, maybe we're not full on exploiters that are like destroying the earth, but what are some ways that maybe exploitation shows up that are less than.
Or, or more subtle.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. I think that sometimes, you know, when we talk about just talking about church, um, you know, church can be present in a community, almost taking up space, but maybe not pouring back into the community. Um, a lot of people when they talk about compost, you know, what, what you're talking about is [00:33:00] not letting anything that you've taken from the earth not somehow make its way back to the earth in a meaningful way.
And so if we think about the church exploiting a neighborhood such strong language, um, but um, if we're really nurturing a neighborhood, it, it's gonna look different. And, and I'm, I'm gonna be honest, like our church is not perfect. I'm not saying Eastbrook is perfect for sure. Anybody who knows us and the challenges of the neighborhood where we're at, there's huge needs.
And yet, um, one thing that's coming up this coming weekend, there's a, there's like a. Citywide initiative, that's part of something called Milwaukee River Keepers. There's a Milwaukee River that runs through our city out into Lake Michigan and, and. Uh, needs help. Um, so there's some folks, it's a, not a Christian initiative, but we've joined in with that for years on that Saturday to to on our part of the river runs right behind our campus, um, to help provide care with the community that's gathered here, uh, so that we're not just [00:34:00] pulling resources out of the place or just taking up space, but not somehow putting something back in.
How do we be for the good of the neighborhood, the good of the city? And that can be an abstract slogan, but it gets real when you're saying, actually the square footage right behind our south parking lot where the river, one of the tributaries runs, we're gonna be in charge of trying to take care of that so that both on our side and then the other side, which abuts one of the city parks called Mo Park like that, that is cared for.
And it's not just us, but we're actually also trying to nurture community and be part of it. We're not leading that. We're just coming inside of something. So those are, I think, like that's again, a practical way to be attentive to it. We are a church that has people from the city. We're in the city, but also from the suburbs.
So how do we make sure that we're just not a destination and, and people aren't somehow invested in the space. Um, we've done some different things with a, we have a hosted neighborhood health clinic. Um, it's part of a citywide three locations. We're one of those [00:35:00] locations again, didn't. We didn't create this, but we're hosting it and we have volunteers who serve there.
And, and so some of those ways of, like, it's an old phrase that people can kind of use in utilitarian ways, but if the, if the church sees to exist, would the neighborhood care? Right. And um, hopefully the answer would be yes. Um, in our case we want it to be that, but we have ways to grow for sure.
Andrew Camp: And but then too to realize the beauty of a garden is what works for your church at Eastbrook won't work for Flagstaff.
And so we can't copy and paste. We can learn, I think there's principles, there's transferable ideas that, you know, like we can part, we can be in dialogue together to help. Again, I keep using the word cultivate, which, you know, it's great as we talk about garden, you know, like, um, but we can be in conversation to help cultivate imaginations across states, but we can't.
It's not a one size fits all.
Matt Erickson: Yes.
Andrew Camp: You know?
Matt Erickson: Yeah. I love that phrase, cultivate imagination across [00:36:00] states. Like, I can learn from you, you can learn from me, but it's not gonna be a plug and play. Mm-hmm. Um, there might even be some similarities, you know, but we have to know our place.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so much of recent church history maybe, and, you know, tied to the church growth movement has wanted, you know, to, to provide models that can quickly grow a church.
Um
Matt Erickson: mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: You know, whereas again, if, if we're gardeners it's gonna take a longer time, that, um, won't, won't be as easy. And, and one thing you do that I loved is, you know, you talked about the seasons, you know? Yeah. Um, and, and so, you know, 'cause we we're. You know, there's different ways to think of growth and you outline those and, um, but you come back to these ideas of seasons both individually and communally.
Uh, I found that really helpful. And so can you, as we think about gardening, like how do seasons come into play? Metaphorically for us? Um mm-hmm. Both maybe individually and communally. [00:37:00]
Matt Erickson: Yeah. A lot of the work that I explored initially in, in the chapter about seasons is looking at. Um, sort of stages of spiritual growth, right?
Mm-hmm. Like Fowler has his stages of growth, so that's more linear. Um, I'm a huge fan of the book, the Critical Journey, which talks about these stages of spiritual growth and a wall you might run into. That was really helpful for me as a framework for the linear growth. But I think what can sometimes be missed is that cyclical growth of seasons.
And so I try to explore that and. Um, I think I'm still kind of intuiting my way to what that means, but I do think that when we think about communities or even our own spiritual life, there are times where we will go through what can be, um, a springtime where it feels like there's just vibrancy of growth.
You're, you're seeing things pop out. This is what's happening in Milwaukee right now. Um, the spring flowers are coming [00:38:00] up, the tulips, the daffodils. You can see the very edges of the buds coming off the trees. And so springtime is a time of attentiveness and, and wonder at everything just growing, so we can experience that where there might be some new initiative happening in a church or we're sensing some momentum around something.
Not even sure I love that word, but I'll just use it anyway.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Matt Erickson: Um, or in our spiritual life where we may see something new kind of coming forth, we kind, it's, it's emerging. We don't know how to name it yet. Sometimes summer are the times where it's like very vibrant and it just feels like the birds are flying, the butterflies are coming through, the crops are coming up in a sense.
So you're, you're seeing a lot of growth. Churches may be in times where they see just a lot of growth and uh, that can be a wonderful time. It also can be an overwhelming time, um, in our spiritual life. There may be season we'd say like, oh, this is a summertime. It just felt vibrant and alive. Sometimes those are the times when people says, Hey, what was a great.
Time of your spiritual life, when were you closest to God? Those [00:39:00] are probably the times we point to. And then the fall and the autumn becomes a season where there are things that start to, uh, die off and. Obviously when we talk about this in terms of a church or, or a our spiritual life, we recognize there are things where we might be letting go of different ways of thinking about the spiritual life or thinking about God.
We might be having to let go of old patterns of our life, uh, dying to sin and coming alive in some new newness of life and abundant life. I don't know. Uh, but in, in the, in the church, when we talk about a community going through an autumn, this gets hard because, um. We don't, we kind of like to have everything always growing.
We want it to be perpetual summer.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Matt Erickson: And I think as a pastor, we're as guilty of this as anybody else. But I do think it's helpful to recognize there are seasons for things to die.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Matt Erickson: Whether it's a ministry, uh, whether it's an end to a group, a small [00:40:00] group, or some other thing. It's okay. It's okay. And in fact, when we resist that, sometimes we're working against God.
And so, so recognizing some of that and, and, and embracing the end of things is also good learning how to bring a good end. Um, and then that there are winter times, there are times where we go through, I think spiritually we might equate this with something like a dark night of the soul.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Matt Erickson: Or a spiritual desert times where we don't see any growth happening.
But, um, in some senses we have to entrust ourselves to God and believe there are things happening below the surface that we may not even know. And I think there's also ways that the church can go through an individual church, or even in North America, I kind of feel like we are in a winter. Yeah, it's, it's a subterranean time.
It feels confusing, it feels barren. Um, it can feel like a decline or retraction and certainly sometimes churches will actually die fully go. Um, and it's the end of their season. [00:41:00] Um, but at other times it might just be a season a church goes through. That might be kind of a, a realignment time or a reframing, a re-imagining of what the church could be.
I dunno. I think it's really suggestive. I'm still kind of trying to figure out my way through it. Andrew.
Andrew Camp: I appreciate that. Just 'cause I think, like you said, we want spring and summer and we cl to it, um, with white knuckled fists. Yeah. You know, and, and we wanna keep it going, you know, like the momentum word, it's not a great word, but it's a word that, you know, we wanna keep that momentum going, you know, like.
We see thousands of people come on Easter. We think the next week if a thousand, if if those people all don't return, we've done something wrong. You know? Right. You know, but to think, like you said, like, okay, if this, if the church in North America might be in this time of winter in this dormancy or hibernation might be too strong of a word, but maybe it's a time of, of just.
Thinking and reflecting and mm-hmm. Um, like to try to force spring and [00:42:00] summer into winter wouldn't work. Like you, you and I would never plant a garden in winter because everything's frozen. Like, you know? Right. Like
Matt Erickson: right.
Andrew Camp: And, you know, and yet we try that with church or a spiritual life. And, and so the wisdom of how to then approach that, um, 'cause it does feel bewildering, it feels confusing.
We don't know what to do in those seasons. Both I think at an individual level and at a communal level. And so how do we then again, enter into dialogue with others to help? Okay. Like I'm feeling this, like how
Matt Erickson: mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: What might Jesus be calling me into or what might Jesus be calling us as a community into?
And how do we settle versus fight, um, is so hard.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. I think there's some of that is even, um, you know, part of what I just hear you saying is, you know, you need people in your life, whether you're talking about your spiritual life, whether those are kind of spiritual friends or a spiritual director who you [00:43:00] can process this stuff with.
And then I think also for church communities, a lot of times, whether we talk about, you know, elders or church council or consistory, vestry, whatever leadership structures are there, a lot of times we're afraid to actually talk about that stuff. Hey, I feel like. This thing is maybe not what we're supposed to be about anymore, and there's a lot of risk in that.
Mm-hmm. Um, but I think you can trust, you can trust the good gardener. Um, yeah. Our God, who is the good gardener? It says in John 15. So, um, how do we enter into discerning together what he's doing and not, not move out of fear or avoidance, um, but embracing some of these things. Mm-hmm. Like actually God might be doing this.
He might be taking us into a winter, and what might that mean and how do we pay attention to that? How do we accept it instead of fight against it?
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Matt Erickson: Um, just a different posture. I don't, I'm not talking about passivity, just letting whatever happens to us, but actually [00:44:00] actively embracing some of these seasons.
And sometimes there are multiple seasons happening in a church in different areas of ministry at the same time.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, right. You know, and then, you know, pastors, elders there, there's budgets, there's, you know, giving has, you know, like, and, and so that's a risk of, of this embracing of a winter is if we embrace winter.
What does that mean? You know, fiscally, which, like, again, I, you never wanna operate from that posture fully, but it's there. And to, to not at least voice that the fiscal responsibility a church and elders have, which is a huge way, you know, like, how, what does that mean? I think that's, that's where it gets scary for churches.
'cause pastors livelihoods are dependent on certain aspects, you know, like,
Matt Erickson: yes.
Andrew Camp: You know, and so it is scary and, but how to do it. In a way that brings forth greater health, um, down the road, um, is hard. And you end your book with a chapter on hope, which I think [00:45:00] is important, you know? Um, yeah. Because it's easy to see, okay, if we're in winter, you know, doom and gloom.
But how do we, why, why do we need to steward hope in, in this season?
Matt Erickson: Uh, there's so many things that could make us lose hope right now, right? Yeah, right. Um, our national conversation is just so conflicted. Uh, uh, regardless of where you land politically, um, I think there's a lot of hopelessness. Mm-hmm. Um, you look at the world situation, global conflicts that seem to just carry on in the sense of angst that so many people have around the world.
And then things in our own neighborhoods and cities. Again, I, I can only speak to Milwaukee and some of the challenges we were dealing with. You talked about education. We have some challenges with that in our own city. Um, again, dollars are pulled tighter, so even public services are being challenged in, in our city.
So. I think with all that happening and then people [00:46:00] saying things like the church is in decline in North America, it is really easy to fall into hopelessness.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Matt Erickson: Um, but, but the gospel is a, is a message that is full of hope. Uh, it's not a false hope and it's not a false optimism. Um, and, and I think the key to that is, is remembering the story of Jesus that he.
He's the bringer of hope, but he went into death and, and if Jesus walked inside of death and walked out the other side, I don't wanna be simplistic, and the resurrection happened, then we have to be people of hope, even if it goes against what we perceive. And so I do think there's sort of this, um, hope that's linked to the resurrection, um, Jesus resurrection and then a sort of an eschatological hope that's linked with the, the consummation of all things, the new heaven and the new earth that we are living now as sort of.
Fully engaged with the resurrection of Jesus. We're living now fully [00:47:00] engaged with the new heaven and the new Earth. We're trying to model, or I don't wanna say model, I want to image forth that reality now. Um, and, and even in dark times, um, we have an opportunity to do that. Um. It's not easy. Uh, but, but we have that kind of, I think of Ephesians one.
It says, you, you have an inheritance, like a deposit in your life. Yeah. By the spirit's presence now. And so I think that hope ties in within the way we live. We keep sowing seeds. We keep cultivating our, our lives. We cultivate the land of ministry, our church, our our communities in a meaningful way as image bearers and as image bearers of, of the resurrection.
And, um, and, and a gardener is, if anything, a person of hope putting things into the ground, hoping that something's gonna come up. Uh, just like we started the beginning of our conversation, like, you don't know, right? And so I think, uh, it's an image of hope, uh, that, that, uh, I'd just say like the hope is the kind of the defining virtue of the pastor gardener, but I think it.
I'm not trying to say it's more important than love. I mean, Paul said the [00:48:00] greatest of these is love, so I don't wanna argue with him. No, but it's, it's, it's powerful. It's so important to have that theological virtue in our lives.
Andrew Camp: I just finished reading, you know, and late to the party on it, but just finished Walter Bruger Man's the Prophetic Imagination.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and his
Matt Erickson: amazing book.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. But his, his sort of twofold task of the prophet of cultivating grief, but also then hope. Mm-hmm. Um, or, you know, the energizing. Message of Isaiah is where he draws it from and then ties it to Jesus too. But like, you know, where like we, we gotta give voice to the grief of what we're losing, but then also continue to paint and steward and paint a picture of, of a, of a new world, um, that that is coming and is here.
Um, you know, and so like, yeah, as I was thinking about hope, you know, it's, you know, since it was fresh in my mind of like, how do we. Hold those two intention of, you know, stewarding our people through grief, but also then helping them see [00:49:00] that grief is not the end. Like mm-hmm. Good Friday. Saturday isn't the end of the story, but there is resurrection, um, and newness that will come again.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. There's nothing like, uh, winter in Milwaukee when the first daffodils, crocuses and tulips start to come up.
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Matt Erickson: it's like something happens in our city and you can just feel like joy humming in the air, and I feel like part of what the calling of the Jesus follower is in these days. Is, um, if I can borrow a phrase from NT Wright, he once said, it's like, what should you do?
Plant a tree. Um, and he meant that both maybe literally you're, you're kind of imaging forth new creation in a, in a literal way. Um, but also spiritually, uh, you're doing something that that speaks of hope. And in some ways we. I've been filled with hope by, by God. But we also cultivate hope by doing things [00:50:00] that, that are connected to the kingdom.
Connected to life. Mm-hmm. Uh, let the, let the joy hum in the air as we, as we plant sort of the spiritual tulips and real tulips in the midst of our cities, in our neighborhoods and our world. There's something, there's something profound about both at the same time. The literal and the, the metaphorical.
Andrew Camp: There is something. Every spring and every, you know, when, you know, we have some fruit trees in our yards too, which is fun and, you know, that's cool. We plant and we do the same thing and I can do the exact same thing each and every year, and I will get radically different results. Um. Mm-hmm. But the hope is still there.
And so it's, it's that, okay, I will be responsible, but I cannot ultimately control my garden. Right. You know? Right. There are forces beyond my control. We could have a late frost that ruins everything again, you know? Yes. And so I think, yeah, like that, you know, as we work and plant, literally, I think it does help me maybe hold less [00:51:00] tightly to control, um mm-hmm.
Because I realize I, I can be faithful, but I, I, you know, Jesus calls the growth to bring, bring back full circle to Corinthians.
Matt Erickson: Yeah, I just, and for me, that's been one of the most freeing things of this whole journey about the pastor as a gardener is. I can know what I have control over. Like I have control over certain things.
Yep. Um, but a, a lot of it I don't, and that just taken some pressure off of me as a pastor. Again, it doesn't mean I'm not working hard. It doesn't mean I'm just like, oh God, just gonna do it all. I'm, I'm, I'm doing a lot, but I know that I can't make that happen. And so that's, that's freed me from trying to be God.
That's been great.
Andrew Camp: No, it is. Yeah. It's a tough lesson as pastors to learn Yeah. That we're not in control. Um, but it, it, I think when we can embrace it, even if we're not pastors, you know, it is freeing.
Matt Erickson: Yeah. And even for all of us as we follow [00:52:00] Jesus. Yeah. There are people in our lives, there are situations in our lives that we want to be control over and control over, and we, in a sense have to let that go and entrust that.
To God who is a good nurturer mm-hmm. And does provide nurturing care into our lives. Um, that's, that's really powerful for me.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. I feel like there's a whole book on parenting as a garden, you know, that you could,
Matt Erickson: yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Matt Erickson: It's actually pretty funny. I have a friend who's not a pastor and he sent me a text after reading, finishing my book, and he said, um, he, it was like five different titles of other books that could be offshoots of it.
And one of 'em was, he's like the parent as a gardener, and I was like. Good point. You know, and I think what he was just trying to say as someone who's not a pastor, he really resonated with the book and applied it to his own work life.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Matt Erickson: But in different spheres of his life. And, and I hadn't really thought about it that way 'cause I was living out of the pastoring role.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Matt Erickson: Um, I was talking to a nonprofit leader who had the same thing. He's like, oh, [00:53:00] this has been so helpful for me in leading this nonprofit that I'm a part of. And it's very, very encouraging.
Andrew Camp: That is cool. And so it's a question I ask all of my guests as we begin to wrap up. What's the story you want the church to tell?
Matt Erickson: Uh, I want this. I want the church to tell the story of a Jesus who has redeemed all of life and all of creation and he is sowing seeds of good news and hope. And I want us to tell a story of a, of a community of people from every tribe in Tongue and nation who get to gather around the throne of God.
And there are no second class citizens. And the, if I can borrow from your Title I, the, there's a big table and everybody's welcome to gather around King Jesus' table and it's a beautiful place. So, um, I'm not sure if that's a story, but, um, it feels like one to me.
Andrew Camp: No, it's beautiful. Appreciate [00:54:00] it. Um, and some fun questions about food.
Um, what's one food you refuse to eat?
Matt Erickson: This is gonna sound so bad as we just talked about gardening. Yeah. I just do not like eggplant. I've tried so hard. Okay. So I'm pretty much a no eggplant person, even though I really wish I could like it.
Andrew Camp: Okay. That's fair.
Matt Erickson: If somebody has a great recipe, please send it my way.
I could use it.
Andrew Camp: Have you done the like. The Asian style eggplant dishes are, you know, like, you know, there's Chinese eggplant and there's, you know, obviously the Italian eggplant dishes. But
Matt Erickson: yeah, I have had some, I have had some, uh, more on the, the Asian side, uh, through our good friends who are Chinese and I'm still, I'm not convinced yet, the, it's not convinced me.
Andrew Camp: Alright. On the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
Matt Erickson: Oh man. Oh, I think sometimes the best foods are also the best experiences of being at a [00:55:00] table. And, um, I was with some, some dear friends in the Middle East, gathered around, uh, a table with their family. Um. And they just kept bringing out dish after dish of, um, wonderful homemade food.
Yeah. Um, I already love kind of Mediterranean, middle Eastern food, uh, but to have it coming out of their kitchen and to enjoy the conversation with people I've known for a long time and new family members that I hadn't met before. Uh, the whole atmosphere and the food together, uh, was just an amazing experience for me.
Andrew Camp: That's beautiful. And finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? So if Matt had one last meal, what? What might be on the table?
Matt Erickson: Oh wow. If I had one last meal and uh, I could pick anything. This is gonna sound so simple.
I would probably just have an amazing dish of spaghetti with [00:56:00] homemade meatballs and some really amazing salad. I won't determine what that would be. And um, yeah, like a glass of red wine and good community to be with, that would be, that would be satisfactory to me.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. Well, Matt, really appreciate it.
Um, this conversation. Love your work, your heart. Um, if people are interested in learning more about you and your work, where, where might they find you?
Matt Erickson: Yeah. Easiest place probably to find me is, uh, my website, which is mw erickson.com and then also I write on Substack and it's mw erickson.substack.com and can find that there.
And also take a peek at the pastor as gardener. All the places people look at books.
Andrew Camp: Yep. It's published by Erdman. Um, but yeah, even if you're not a pastor, I think, like Matt was saying, towards the end, you know, there's rich depth to be procured from the book. Um, so yeah, highly encourage it.
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Thanks for [00:57:00] joining us on this episode of the Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time.