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A growing community of educators, mentors, and lifelong learners who believe in the power of connection, shared stories, and showing up for one another - again and again
Cate Tolnai (she/her): All right, well
welcome, um, Natasha to the bridge.
It is lovely to meet you
and be in your orbit.
Now, um, as is the case,
uh, on the bridge, I have.
Uh, been graced with new friendships
because of our friend in common.
Ann Kozma, who was my very first guest,
she was a first guest because I really
couldn't even like imagine the bridge
without having Ann like help frame it.
Right.
Natasha: Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): but
welcome and just would love to
have you introduce yourself.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Natasha: Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
And like I said to you earlier, any
friend of Ann is a friend of mine,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Natasha: we are now
Cate Tolnai (she/her): There
Natasha: at the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you go.
Natasha: BFFs.
Um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Love it.
Natasha: so yeah, just, I mean,
really quickly, I'm Natasha Rachell.
I'm the Director of Instructional
Technology for Atlanta Public Schools.
Um, I have an alternative route
into the field of education
and my leadership journey is.
little different.
I'm sure we'll talk about that.
Um, but just super excited to be here.
I'm married.
I have two grown
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Natasha: Um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): grown?
Natasha: one is grown, the
oldest, I have two boys.
The oldest is 28.
He's an accountant and he is
actually, I don't know if I should
say this, but he's gonna be proposing
to his girlfriend in December.
So super
Cate Tolnai (she/her): my God.
Natasha: Oh, I will finally have like
a daughter in my life for finally.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's awesome.
Natasha: my youngest son just turned 21.
He's a senior at LSU, go Tigers, and
he's majoring in mechanical engineering.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): gosh.
Natasha: is good.
Life is
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Life is so good.
And so how many, how, what year
are you on your education journey?
Like how long have you
been doing this jam?
Natasha: Yeah, so I'm alternatively
certified, so this is year 22 for
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Natasha: Um, had I gone straight
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Uhhuh.
Natasha: after college, I think
I would have like three more
Cate Tolnai (she/her): okay.
Natasha: till I can retire, which
is weird because I don't feel old
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No.
Natasha: retire.
Like people around me are getting
ready to retire, but I don't feel.
enough to retire, which is so weird.
Like to think that I could be
sitting on my couch in three
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
I mean,, would you really be
sitting on your couch though?
Like I
Natasha: no, we would find
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I
Natasha: to do.
Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you would start
teaching teachers is what you would do?
Natasha: Uh, you know what?
You're probably
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yes.
Natasha: right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): we just
discussed, the joy of like helping
to shape future teachers, right?
Mm.
Natasha: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Tell
us about how you, um, how your
day to day, what it looks like.
Because I, one of the things I'll
share is just like when I, when, when
I found out we were gonna get a chance
to connect and I started learning
about the scale of your work, um.
Like, it's just kind of mind blowing
to, to understand the impact, like of
innovation and change that you do and
that you have to manage at, you know,
with so many humans and, and impacting
so many children and so many families.
So what does a day to day look like?
Natasha: Every day is different.
Um, that sounds so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Sure.
Natasha: every single day is different.
Um, right now I'm doing a lot
of convincing people that AI is
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha: and so that is.
Interesting.
Um, we have rolled out AI from the
top down, so we got buy-in from
like our leaders first, and then
our school leaders, and then our
teachers, and then our students.
So we did it the right way, but
it's just a lot of explaining
and, you know, the governance
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah, yeah.
Natasha: have we done.
And have we done that?
And so it's bringing all the people to the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: the right conversation.
So that's what I'm spending a lot of my
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Got it.
Natasha: I will say that I feel like
my days kind of operate in cycles.
So like the start of the new
year, then we kind of roll into
like the fall, which is where we
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: doing like all the AI and
you know, a couple different things.
And then when January hits.
We're getting ready for our technology
and innovation competition, our
eSports competition, our film festival.
So like that's when all of our
programming hits, and that's
just like a super busy season.
And then summertime hits and my
team gets to go home for three
weeks and I get to stay at work
and plan for the upcoming year.
So it's like a, almost, I don't know
if you think of it like a, a circle
and there's like the four Seasons and.
It's so weird.
Yeah.
So I mean, lots of meetings
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Natasha: Um, bringing the right
minds and the right people to
the table to make decisions and
have meaningful conversation.
And, um, my goal this year is to
get out of the office and get into
schools more and more and more.
Like I wanna see it in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha: And so that's
kind of where we are.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So, okay,
you've said this a few times,
you have an alternative path.
It sounds like you had a taste of
another career, maybe before education.
Okay.
And then is that the
alternative path or what else?
Like unpack it.
Natasha: Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
So, so much.
Let me see if I can make this
story a little shorter for you.
Um, so when I was in college, I,
I grew up in Southern California
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Where?
Where did you grow up?
Natasha: I grew up in a
city called Moreno Valley
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
I know Moreno Valley.
Yeah.
Natasha: You?
Yeah, that's
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's amazing.
Natasha: Canyon Springs
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's amazing.
Natasha: Um.
And loved it.
Absolutely loved it.
And when we were, I have
a twin brother, when
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh gosh.
Natasha: to graduate, um, my parents
were divorced and my mom, she's from
England, we were born in England and
she was like, you're going to college.
But really, because the education
system in England is different,
did, she didn't really know how to.
Kind of navigate us
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Uh,
Natasha: And so we kind
of had to figure that out.
But we were going to college like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Natasha: end of the conversation.
And so the Olympics, we knew
were coming to Atlanta a few
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh.
Natasha: then and we didn't
know anybody in Atlanta.
And I filled out our college applications.
I filled out mine
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Oh my God, I love it.
Natasha: um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): What a good sister
Natasha: I'm what a good sister I am.
Uh, so I filled out our applications
for this school, um, called Clark
Atlanta University, and we got
in and then they started sending
us all this, all these pamphlets.
And this is before the internet.
Um, God, that sounds so old.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that is.
Natasha: they
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Funny.
Natasha: it is, it's we're old.
So they started sending us all this
information and we found out about
this school that was maybe a mile,
well, maybe a mile away, half a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Uh huh.
Natasha: from Clark Atlanta
called Morris Brown.
Morris Brown would give the youngest
twin, which was me, free tuition.
But at Clark Atlanta, the youngest twin
only got, they paid for half the tuition.
So
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Natasha: that simple.
Piece of knowledge made
us decide to go to Morris
Cate Tolnai (she/her): hmm.
Natasha: So went to college,
majored in biology pre-med.
I actually got married and had my
young, my oldest son, um, while I was in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh wow.
Natasha: a different path
than, you know, the traditional
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Sure, sure, sure.
Yeah.
Natasha: um.
And so, majored in bio pre-med and by
the time I got married and had my son,
it was like, let's just hurry up and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: And so while I was in college,
I was working part-time at Bath and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: and I graduated and my
district manager said, Hey, do
you wanna be an assistant manager?
And I was like, heck
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: to look for a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Natasha: do
Cate Tolnai (she/her): absolutely.
Natasha: And I'll never forget
I was making $27,500 and I just
thought I was bawling outta
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right?
Natasha: Um, which when you look
back, I'm like, oh, how did I survive?
Um.
Crazy.
So yeah, I worked retail
management for a number of years.
Um, I became an assistant manager,
then a manager, and then I got
recruited to Ann Taylor Loft
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: And so then I got pregnant with
my second son, and my husband called
me one day when I went back to work.
And I just could hear my youngest son in
the background like screaming and crying
and he was like, I fed him, I changed him.
I just don't know what to do.
And I was like, yeah, this
isn't gonna work anymore.
Because in retail, the only days
you're guaranteed off are Christmas and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Sure.
Natasha: You work, you
could work every other
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: Um, and so I knew I had to make a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: my job and became
a substitute teacher.
and there is a high school
that is maybe about three miles
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: and I would pick up jobs at
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: and that lasted for
about two weeks, and then a
full-time science position
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: And because I'm biology pre-med,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha: maybe I could do this.
Didn't know what route to take, like.
had no idea.
And so I saw the job was posted and I went
to the principal and I said, Hey, I've
been subbing here for like three weeks.
I see you have this position open.
Like how do I get in?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's awesome.
Natasha: and so I interviewed,
her name was Margie Smith.
I still adore her to this day.
Um, she interviewed and she sat
across from me at that table and she
said to me, I see something in you.
You're gonna make me proud.
You're gonna be my star baby.
And.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): gosh.
Natasha: day.
I remember that.
And every time I talk to her,
I just remind her of that.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): She says,
you're gonna be my star, baby.
Natasha: yes, and you're
going to make me proud.
Like you don't have an option, girl.
I'm gonna hire you and take a chance
on you, and you're gonna make me proud.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Natasha: And so she took a chance on me.
And so she hired me and she
said, here's some paperwork.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Natasha: central office.
You're gonna enroll in the Georgia
TAP program, which was a teacher
alternative preparation program, and
here's your teacher edition textbook.
Go be great.
And so I walked in the class
and I was like, Hey, I'm here.
Had no idea how to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Natasha: Um, yeah.
And so that's what started it.
I taught for.
eight years, I think.
Um, and then transitioned into the
central office into professional learning.
Um, and I actually was a transition to
teaching coach for math and science,
um, for paraprofessionals that wanted
to transition to teach into math or
Cate Tolnai (she/her): What a perfect
fit based on what you experienced.
Wow.
Natasha: all the pieces just
like have fallen together.
Um, and so I did that.
That was a, um, grant funded program,
so that lasted two years, and then I
transitioned into Atlanta public schools.
So I, I skipped districts.
Um, and I started as a ed tech
specialist and then became a
science digital learning specialist.
And for the past.
Almost five years now have been the
director of Instructional technology.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So how
did you go, how did you get into
that level of leadership though?
That's what I think is
really interesting, right?
Is 'cause it's, it's, it
sounds like you, well.
It definitely sounds like you
didn't go the traditional leadership
path in education, which I had.
I didn't either.
And so super curious how
that came together, how the
leadership unlocked for you.
Natasha: so I had my
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: um, and then, you know, once you,
once I finished my teacher preparation
program, you know, everybody, all the
teachers say, well, in order to earn
more money, you have to get more degrees.
And so I got my master's
degree in curriculum
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Then, um, I got my spec.
No.
I got my master's degree in educational
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: Then I got my, um,
specialist in curriculum and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Got it.
Natasha: then I got my doctorate
in organizational leadership.
And so, um, I definitely
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
That's right, doctor.
No, I just wanna say no.
Natasha: we the same?
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
No, I am not a doctor.
I will be one day.
I'm manifesting.
Natasha: you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I will.
Natasha: you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Um, but love
that, that, did you see that as a key
to unlock opportunity like more Yeah.
You needed it to.
Natasha: I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Okay.
Natasha: yeah, so the school that I got
my, um, leadership certificate from.
Georgia changed a lot of their rules,
like within those years that I was in
that little, it was like a, a weird time.
Like you had to be done by a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: you know, that school wasn't
gonna be recognized in Georgia anymore.
And so I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): interesting.
Natasha: the puzzle pieces
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Um, and I will say, if I
just think back, people have always.
The people that I've surrounded
myself around have always pushed
me to dream bigger and, and know
that I'm capable of doing more.
Um, and so I think, you know, of course
the degrees are great to have and it, it
adds like some credibility, you know, to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Um, but I also think
having the right people that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: for you and
speak your name in the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: um, the ones that
encourage you and push you.
wanna pour into you without feeling
that they need something in return.
I think that has probably
been a bigger piece for me.
Like I've always just had
the right people on my
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Is that something
you, you've cultivated or is that, yeah.
Okay.
Is that something that kind
of came easily for you?
Natasha: I, I mean, I talk to everybody.
I'm a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha: mean, if you're
a friend of Ann, you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right, right.
Natasha: who surrounds her.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Well, and I'll
say the moment you came on screen today,
like I was like, you are sunshine.
Like I don't, I don't even know you,
and you're bright and lovely and you're
on screen like, I can't even imagine
Natasha: Oh, thank you.
Well, I will say we do, um, the
strength finders in our district, and
my number one strength is positivity.
And so I don't, I always think
that has something to do with
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: um, yeah, I definitely
worked on cultivating those
relationships and I think.
The older, maybe at first when I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: um, I wasn't
as intentional about it.
They just kind of formed.
But the older, I don't wanna say
older, the more I've matriculated
through education, you definitely
have to be more intentional about,
about cultivating those relationships.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and
did that look like, um.
Well, I'm trying to think like,
like unlocking, you said like
people that will advocate for
you in a room that you're not in.
Right?
Like people, so, so it, I, you
know, I'm just thinking about like.
Teachers that are in their third or their
fourth year and they're like, wondering
what this future looks like, or if I wanna
get into leadership or if I wanna make
more money or if I, you know, like all the
things like, so we've talked a lot on this
podcast about like, finding your people
and, and making sure you're connecting.
And, um, and what I love about what
you're sharing is that, you know, it's
finding your people, but it's also like.
Like harnessing your
people, you know, and like
Natasha: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): available
in for them in ways that
they're available for you.
That like symbiotic relationship
is really important.
And probably, I would imagine
it took, it took me many years
to feel like I had value to add.
Right.
Natasha: Oh yes.
Yeah,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I
didn't know how to define that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha: Yeah, I think, um.
When I think back on it, like when I
was a first year teacher, like trying to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: I think my second year
teaching, they needed a cheerleading
coach and I was like, oh, I was
a cheerleader in high school.
I'll do it.
Sure.
Um, and then when I was going through
my teacher preparation program, like
I would form intentional relationships
with the teachers that were teaching
those courses, um, with my mentor
that was my mentor for that program.
Um.
I think like sometimes, like
when I was a, a digital learning
specialist, I remember going to my
boss and saying, Hey, give me more
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: I'm
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Like I wanna learn more.
Um, and you can't do that
in every season, right?
Like if you've got little
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: home, or maybe you're working
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: or.
Whatever, like I think of these,
you know, third and fourth year
teachers that may not be in a
season to be able to take on the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: but when you get to that
season of life, and one thing my mom
always used to say when, when we were,
um, growing up, she would say, there's
never a perfect time to do anything.
So in order for the.
Perfect time to come.
You kind of just have to make it
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: And so if you continuously wait,
like I'm gonna wait till I get married
and I'm gonna wait till I have kids and
I'm gonna wait till I finish this degree.
Like you're just gonna be waiting
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: and you're never going
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: be able to, I don't
wanna say take on the extra,
but be able to pour more
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: able to, to advance.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I think too,
like part part of saying yes is,
I mean it, you know, it literally
will add more to your plate.
But like I also found that the more that
was added to my plate, the more I said yes
to stuff, the more confident I became And.
And the more like I got closer and
closer to understanding what my gifts
were and what my genius was and like how
I could actually like add that value.
And it, it stripped the imposter syndrome
away because I started saying yes
and I was like, wow, I could do that.
You know?
Natasha: Yeah.
Yeah.
Why not?
Why not?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Natasha: everybody?
Everybody has started somewhere
and just because you look at.
Um, like there's some, some women
in my life in the educational space
that I, that I work in that are
doing different things and I look
at them and I'm just, I'm always in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Like, I just hold
them on this, this pedestal.
And I just, whenever I think about
them and they're so down to earth
and giving and, and they pour
into me, but I'm just like, wow.
Like I can't wait to be them
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Natasha: and then I have to
sit and remember and think
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you are them.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Somebody sent me a text message.
Yes.
Or the day before, I was kind of talking
to them about a situation and she texted
me and she said, remember who you are?
That's all she said.
And I just said, you know what?
She's so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm.
Natasha: She is so, I
have so much to offer and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: give.
And so, you know, when that imposter
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: sets in for anybody
listening, remember who you are.
Like you are here for a reason.
Pull a seat up to the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: let your voice be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Totally.
And, and what lights your fire
is going to light someone else's.
Like I say that all the time,
like, because I, I, um, I have
this habit of presenting on
things and at, at conferences
that I've never been to before.
And like, oh, I'm going to a conference.
Great.
I'm gonna present, you know,
like, oh, I don't, I'm not exactly
sure what it's about, but I'm
not exactly sure the audience.
But like, I'll, I'll find out and um,
and I'll put myself out there because.
Because that's for me,
the way that I find, uh.
Like, I, I find my comfort, you know,
is being in front of people and I say
all the time, like, like the smartest
person in the room is the room.
And, and I think if we lead with that
awareness that like, we are not the
expert, we are just the expert learner.
Like that ends up being,
especially with ai.
So, so can we talk about ai?
I'm so like, okay, I haven't
got a chance to talk about AI
with people on the podcast, but
like, you're perfect for this.
So.
Natasha: Let's do
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my God.
I, um, I started a position at the county
office in Santa Barbara in October of 22.
And so literally the next
month, Chachi peachy drops.
Right.
And I'm like, this is what we're doing.
Natasha: Yep.
I guess this is what we're doing
Cate Tolnai (she/her): There you go.
So what has that been like to manage?
I mean, like you said, you're the
one who's like, we're doing it.
Um, what's that journey been like?
I mean, that's a big
question, but, you know.
Yeah.
Natasha: I mean it's, we're still
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Yeah, of course, of course.
Natasha: To think that, you know,
October 22 and here we are, October
of 25, and so like insanity.
And to think like what did the
world exist and look like before
ChatGPT, like I use it every single
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: Um.
I even find myself going to chat
GPT before I go to Google now.
Um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): too.
That is interesting.
Uhhuh.
Natasha: Yeah.
So at the district's level, um.
we were just super intentional.
Like when chat GPT came out and
everyone was like, what is it?
I don't know that we had like
Gemini and copilot just yet.
Um, the EdTech companies hadn't started
infusing it in yet, so we just knew
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: and you know, of
course if you don't work in this
space, you think, oh, it's just.
You know, it's the new cheating
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Natasha: Kids are gonna cheat.
Well, kids were cheating before
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Thank you.
Natasha: and they're gonna cheat
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Thank you.
Natasha: GPT.
So you know, there's that.
But I remember going to our
information technology, um, chief
and I said, Hey, what are we doing?
Like, what are your thoughts?
Because I wanna leave it on
like, what are you thinking?
And he said, we're absolutely
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, interesting.
Natasha: He said, if we are going
to create global citizens that
can compete at a global level, we
have to be able to teach to them
how to use this ethically and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: That's all I needed to hear.
Like I was like, green light,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: And so we started training
our central office leadership.
Everybody from the superintendent, cluster
superintendents, our central office staff.
we got them on board, super excited.
And you still have
people that are hesitant,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: Like.
They think the com, you know, chat, GPT
is stealing your information or whatever.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
And maybe it is, right?
Like we we're figuring it out.
Natasha: yeah.
Yeah.
So you just have to be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: again about what you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Natasha: right?
Um, and so we started with them
and then summer leadership, two
years ago, we trained all of our
principals and assistant principals.
And what I love when you train
these people on ai, like you,
the light bulbs, it just.
Oh my gosh.
I put this in and look what it gave
me and, and like, it's amazing.
I just, I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: light bulb, teachable moments
and so we know it's, I mean, it's a fact.
AI will make your productivity,
I mean, just increase and
skyrocket through the roof.
We know that it can be a tutor.
For students that need it.
We know that it can
level the playing field.
And so when I think about our students
that go to school and then come
home and there's not a parent there
because the parent may be working a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: or maybe they
just don't know, right?
Like, I can think of my kids in high
school coming to me for help with math
and I'm like, dude, I don't know it.
Like go
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: I have no idea.
So AI is able to serve as that.
On time level, the playing field tutor.
So you have parents that can afford
to go get tutors and, and do all these
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: And then we
have parents that can't.
And so we know that it
levels the playing field.
Um, and so we trained our principals,
our aps, our teachers, and our students.
Um, we've got Gemini, we've
got CoPilot, um, magic school,
brisk, I mean, we have jumped
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: It is here and the, it's not
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: And whenever I meet
hesitant people, um, I was just
talking to one of our communications
people the o couple weeks ago.
He was like, now what
am I doing with this?
And I was like, okay, take a breath.
I was like, here's some use
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: here's some ways
that you could use it.
And he said, well, kids
are just gonna cheat.
And I said, this is no
different than when a calculator
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Natasha: And when Google
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: we navigated through it, we
put things in place, and now look at us.
that's kind of how we've, we've
navigated it huge on ethics.
Huge on responsibility.
Um, and we, the one thing I'll kind
of leave with this, we are, um, very
intentional about saying whatever you put
in as a human, whatever you put into ai.
You're gonna put your human
content, I need you to do A, B, and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: then it's gonna
give you the AI component.
You always have to follow up with that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: component on the end.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Like a human sandwich.
Natasha: human sandwich.
You have to, because you have to
make sure it's reliable, right?
And you just, you gotta make sure
that it's giving you what you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
That and, and I, and that is so empowering
and I think that people are quick to think
that it's going, that the technology is
going to strip the power away from the
human, but I find it's the exact opposite.
Like I have found that my, um.
My ideas are a little sharper, and that
I, when you learn how to prompt and when
you learn how to be the human in the loop
and how to be in charge of the machine,
then, then you kind of harness it.
And that is what, that's, and it's
hard to explain that when people
haven't had experience and that's,
Natasha: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like I, um, I'm
currently working at the University of
Phoenix, um, and we, we serve a Totally
unique student population, and we are, do,
we are, we are heavily invested in being
at the, at the forefront of AI and higher
education, and which is exciting and
great, and we're all talking about career
skills and, and getting career ready
and getting our, I mean, many of our.
Many of our students are already
in careers, you know, and
they're looking to like upskill.
And so what does upskilling
look like with ai?
You know, and what is
Natasha: Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you know, how
do we, how do we leverage it to like
expedite the learner experience?
And, and yet I, you know, for the
first three years of my time in,
in ai, I've been focused on, hey,
teachers, you're, you still know
children, you still know their brains.
You know how.
Students develop.
Like, don't forget that just 'cause AI is
here doesn't mean we don't forget that.
Like probably third graders don't
need to be in it very deeply.
You know?
'cause like their brains aren't there.
Like,
Natasha: right,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): take a beat.
Like remember that you are the experts
in child development and in pedagogy.
Mm mm And don't let, that's it.
I think it can be as simple as that.
Um,
Natasha: yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and, and.
Natasha: The teacher will always be the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right,
Natasha: technology, AI, or
otherwise is going to replace a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right,
Natasha: in the classroom.
I'm a firm believer in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: need that expert
teacher in front of
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
I mean, that's what makes you good
at what you do because you're driving
the innovation and change with
technology, but then you're also so
grounded in, in like the, the force
of the teacher in the room and the
power of human relationships and like.
Natasha: Absolutely
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
that's not to be forgotten.
And I, it's so interesting, I've
learned about different school models
that are, um, I don't know if you're
familiar with the Alpha School model.
Natasha: Yes.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Kind of interesting.
So, so just like quick summary, it's
basically leveraging AI to do the
direct instruction and like hard skill
development for a portion of the day.
And then the, the students are
there focusing on passion projects
and, um, experiential learning.
And for the majority of the
school day, which I look at that
and I'm like, I'm just, I can't
wait to watch what happens here.
Like,
Natasha: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I don't know.
I don't, I know that what we have
currently in, in our traditional system
isn't really working, so not for everyone.
So I'm like,
Natasha: know.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Like I appreciate that.
We're shaking it up.
We'll see what happens.
Natasha: We're definitely at
a crossroads in education for
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: you know, the narrative,
and I, you know, I hate to keep
harping on COVID as the reason
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh
Natasha: COVID happened to the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Natasha: just happen to us
here in Georgia or to the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: everywhere.
So I do eventually want us to
stop saying like, well, COVID
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: maybe it did, but like, let's.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: Let's get on the other
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Um, so I do feel like
we're at this crossroads because
there's this narrative that a lot
of our students are not reading on
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: Math is like a huge
thing across the country.
Um, and so there is a need to
shake it up and figure it out.
So it's gonna be very interesting to see.
What
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: But we do know that
kids have to learn their
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: They have to learn how to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: you know, they
have to learn common
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: things that we teach.
Um, but I, I'm very curious
to see because developing like
those skills and, and having that
experiential learning opportunity,
I think is just gonna be amazing.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): totally.
Natasha: It's weird.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): know, and, and
I think about like, um, sitting in a
classroom where I'm struggling with
a concept and the person next to me
gets it and like the, what happens?
What happens, like socially and
emotionally when I am needing to ask
for help from somebody else and that
person helps me, versus a computer
adopting to my learning strengths.
Like, I would miss that in,
in a model similar, you know?
So, I don't know.
I, I, they obviously they're figuring
it out too, but I, uh, I don't know.
It's, um, it's, it's.
It's time for us.
I think this is just a great opportunity
for us to like, ask those hard questions
of our systems and go, we know we need to
shift things up, so where can we shift?
And,
Natasha: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and I, I, I guess
this is where, this kind of leads to my
final question for you, which is, you
know, in light of all of the innovation
and from your perspective, all, all
of the tools you mentioned too, like
the opportunities that are out there,
what, what advice would you offer.
Educators that are, that are in this
career, they've committed to doing
this, and they have the overwhelm
that we know, they feel with all of
the new, like, do you have, what?
What do you, what do you,
what do you say to them?
Natasha: Yeah, I think, um,
what I would say is those of us
that are on kind of the other
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: of the education.
Career, um, we're, we
need people to take our
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: We're, we're years
away from retirement or, or
whatever that looks like.
Um, and so education is still
an amazing field to be in.
Um, the, you know, are
you in it for the money?
Probably not, right?
You could be, but,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Probably not.
Natasha: um, probably not.
But you are in it.
For the right reasons.
Like you are shaping
minds, you are forming
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: with students
that literally last a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: been invited to weddings and baby
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Natasha: and, um, people still talk
about things that we did in class,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): oh,
Natasha: you don't get that
from anywhere else, right?
Every career.
No matter what career it is in
this world goes through a teacher.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yep.
Natasha: And so that's
a huge responsibility.
Um, the advice that I would
give two pieces of advice.
One is gonna be to just jump
out, take risks, and say yes.
Don't be afraid.
Like if you are given an
opportunity, say yes and then
figure it out even if you don't
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yes.
Natasha: it is, right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Love that.
Natasha: Like jump in and
then figure it out later.
Surround yourself with people that can
help you do that, but don't not take
an opportunity because you feel, you
know, intimidated or scared or 'cause
there's never gonna be a right time.
So say yes and do the thing.
The second piece of advice that I'm gonna
offer is to create an executive board.
Um, and this is something that I learned
much, much, much too late in my career.
Um, but you need to
form an executive board.
And on your executive board,
you're gonna surround yourself with
seven different types of people.
You're gonna have a mentor.
This is somebody with
more experience than you.
In your field, going to have a sponsor.
That's someone who is in a position
of influence that will advocate
for you even when you're not there.
gonna have a challenger
who pushes you to grow.
So sometimes, like this is a person
that's gonna tell you what you need
to hear and not what you wanna hear.
Um, a peer coach that's gonna be your
trusted, you know, colleague or friend,
um, that can give you real time support.
You're gonna need a connector.
That's someone who knows a lot of
people and a lot about everything.
I think Ann is a great
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yes.
Natasha: because she connects, right?
Like she's just so good
Cate Tolnai (she/her): She's so good.
Natasha: yeah, you need a visionary
that someone's who, who's gonna help
you dream bigger and think bigger.
And then you need an
accountability partner.
So this is, this is the person that's
gonna hold you to your goals and check
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Natasha: And once you have those seven
people sitting at your table like you're
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Natasha: You are
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Where
was this framework in my life?
Where has this been?
It's beautiful.
I hear
Natasha: telling
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
it's, you know, it's so, um.
Concrete because, because we say
a lot, find your people, find your
people, um, which I find your people.
But to actually have like, uh,
like these personas in mind, like
as you were talking, I'm sitting
here going, Ooh, I need that one.
Natasha: Right.
And you may have people that
serve in, like, there's two women.
There's, it's the three of us and we
actually call ourselves the executive
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I love it.
Natasha: Um, but we are al always, we're
Cate Tolnai (she/her): He,
Natasha: and we bounce
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Natasha: We present our problems and our
nuances and to have different perspectives
to help you work through different
things, especially as you get higher
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: So important.
It's so, so important.
Um, so you can have those, whether you're
a 30 year educator or a first or second
year educator, and you may not have all
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Natasha: have, you know, three people that
kind of fit all of those eight things.
Um, but it's important that
you have those people to lean
on, to bounce ideas off of, to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: I don't know about you,
but my husband doesn't work in
education and coming home to
vent to him about education.
Like he just doesn't
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: Um, so it's important
that you have people that get
it and can give you different
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
That is such a gift.
Is this your framework?
Natasha: No,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Well, it.
Natasha: it's not my framework.
Well, kind of, well, let me say that.
It is mine and chat GT's
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Thank you.
Okay.
Natasha: Um, we did, I put what
I needed and, and it gave me
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
I just love it so much.
Natasha: to about it is
like, it's so simple, right?
But it's so impactful.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): writing a book?
Are you gonna put Turn that
into a book, my friend?
That is a book.
Natasha: Do you know that is a
dream of mine is to write a book.
Um, it is so funny that
you just said that,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Natasha: been on me, so I just,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Girl,
Natasha: all this advice about say
Yes and do it and take the risk.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): know people.
We know people.
Natasha: I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): keep
that conversation going.
Natasha: would, let's do it.
Hold me, hold
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I'll be, I'll be,
Natasha: accountable.
I.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): just, you
just described like chapters of your
book and like, it would, I would
have that book on my shelf because
Natasha: Oh,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): is, um, it's
grounding, it's concrete, it's,
it's actionable, you know, like it's
empowering and in a way that like find
your people kind of leaves you hanging.
Especially that we don't have Twitter
anymore to find them so easily.
Or I don't, I, I'm not on Twitter anymore.
Um.
Natasha: we still are for
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it's not the
same, I think as it was, you know,
eight years ago, nine years ago.
So, um, okay.
Well, next podcast will
be your book debut.
I'm just kidding.
We will keep talking about this because
Natasha: oh, we're
Cate Tolnai (she/her): obviously.
Natasha: are.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Um, you really
are just like, I feel so, so wonderful
and lighter and empowered talking to you.
So thank you for giving me that.
And I,
Natasha: you.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I'm so grateful
that we got the time, um, to connect and,
and that we're now orbiting together.
And, um,
Natasha: Absolutely.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): just keep, I
mean, keep doing what you're doing.
It's working.
Natasha: You too.
You too.
I, I just, I commend you for
there is a space to bridge, no
Cate Tolnai (she/her): mm.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha: to bridge newer
teachers and experienced
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Natasha: Because we
need them to stay in the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): we do.
Natasha: we need them.
My dissertation was about
teacher attrition and the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): There we go.
Natasha: And so you, we need
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Natasha: need you guys.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Don't jump ship.
Natasha: somewhere else.
We need you.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yes.
And our system
Natasha: you for doing what you're
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah, absolutely.
It is.
It is truly my love letter and
um, and I thank you for being you.
Natasha: Thank
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Until next time, my friend.