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You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist is a podcast for seekers, dreamers, and questioners that intimately explores the human experience. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills years of wisdom gained from her practice as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. She invites guests from a broad variety of disciplines and many walks of life, including researchers, writers, artists, healers, advocates, inventive outliers, and creative geniuses. Together, they investigate, illuminate, and inspire transformation - in the self, relationships, and society. Curious about many things, Stephanie’s uniquely interdisciplinary psychological lens tackles challenging social issues while encouraging personal and relational wellness. Join this journey through the inner wilderness.
Swell AI Transcript: 126. Laura Haynes FINAL.mp3
Laura Wiley Haynes:
If a mother of a child who was raped or has autism says, I don't think this trans thing is really what's going on, how is it possible there are actual adults over 25 who are teachers in the school who think that is terrible, that is bigoted, that is something that ought to lose you, your child, if you cannot get on board. with their every idea. I find it so mind-blowing, sort of this enactment of gray adultification of children and making children the authority on themselves and the authority on their identity and all of that. At an age they don't even have a meaningful sense of identity, what it even means. And at the same time, parents just terrified to be parents.
Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. Today I'm speaking again with my friend Laura Wiley Haynes. She is a mother and grandmother, a CASA, which stands for Court Appointed Special Advocate, and a writer. I always enjoy hearing Laura's deep thoughts on childhood development, attachment, trauma, the infant-mother or infant or child-parent bonds and the intergenerational aspects of trauma, dissociation, and mental health stuff. And of course, it's all very relevant toward our shared interest in what's going on with the gender crisis today. So Laura, so good to see you again. Welcome back.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Thank you.
Stephanie Winn: You have some interesting ideas on the intergenerational aspects of the gender crisis. Can you tell us what you mean by that?
Laura Wiley Haynes: I guess I would say I'm trying to figure out what has changed. That suddenly, relatively recently, the last 10 years or so, we have greater and greater numbers of kids ostensibly unable to launch in their sexed bodies as tweens or young adolescents. and claiming this terrible dysphoria that's telling them they don't belong in themselves. And so I think about it from a developmental point of view because a lot of developmental issues can be expressed in similar ways. People who have depersonalization, so they feel like they're sort of not a human, they're a robot or an object, or derealization, where they feel like they're not in themselves and they're kind of diffuse throughout the room, or things like that, that have to do with self-perception. And I think gender has a lot to do with self-perception. So I'm kind of interested in what might be going on developmentally. And, you know, of course, as Jonathan Chait points out, we have screens now that we didn't used to have and cell phones and social media might be a big part of staring into a thing instead of staring into the eyes of a person. And the thing is maybe not giving you what you need to locate yourself the same way the eyes of a person might do. And you know my thoughts on daycare and I think there's a lot of lack of relational care in a group environment. You're not one-on-one relating, locating your mind and one other mind and seeing what the interface is between them. You're kind of lining up in the line or it's time to eat or it's time to get your backpack or whatever. It's a little more mechanized and people aren't deeply relating as they deal with you. The way a one-on-one relationship is a little deeper at all times and tracks with what happened an hour ago or what happened two days ago where, you know, multiple caregivers in a group setting might not have any idea what you might be referring to from three hours ago, you know, that kind of thing. And I feel like I've been, I think my place in the timeline is kind of informing this too, because when I was first a young mother, that was when these options for group care first came along. And so I thought, some of my peers just taking that turn, running off to law school and making partner, and many of them had nannies. but some of them use group care. And like there was something in me that just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. And I think it's probably a lot because I received you know, one-on-one dyadic maternal care when I was little. So somehow my worldview or instincts were, were tuned by that. And it felt really counterintuitive to drop my tiny, tiny baby off at some group, you know. So I just couldn't, anyway, I couldn't do it luckily because I was a writer. I didn't have to and I could get a babysitter into my home and get things done that way and be around. But, you know, I watched the whole culture change. And I think it might have even changed before I was a little girl, because I was a little girl that was kind of brought up to be socialized, to be my dad in many respects. People were already in the 60s and the 70s saying, you can be anything. You can be an astronaut. You can go to business school. And meaning, you know, don't limit your dreams, which is, you know, a well-intended message. But nobody was saying, you know, you can be an incredible mother. Nobody was reinforcing anything about the traditional female role. So you might even me growing up might have already, there might have already been a kind of a devaluation inadvertently of that role under the best intentions of not limiting our visions, you know. So anyway, I just, I wonder how far back you might have to go to get to a person that had, you know, four grandparents, all of whom received dyadic care. And maybe that would be for a piece because maybe a lot of in antiquity, a lot of people died and stuff like that. And you didn't get that care because your mom died in childbirth or whatever. So I don't think it's ever been perfect. But it has never also been where so many adults seem to lack intuitive capacities of how to handle sad children, how to determine what's really going on beneath the surface of a sad child, how to how to just how to go about keeping your feet in reality while your child is flying out of reality and being that anchor. And then instead, I think a lot of parents have this idea that if they're not agreeing with the ideation that their child brings to them, that they're somehow not supporting their child, not being loving, not being evolved or something like that. And it's kind of bizarre. How reluctant people are to say what are you talking about? That's a nutty idea. No God, that sounds completely illogical to me or even saying even saying You think you're a boy, huh? That's so unusual. Tell me more about it. How does it express itself in your mind? When are some moments where that thought has come up and what was going on? They just have to immediately start cheering for it. I feel like we have impaired grownups and that's a big part of child distress and chasing, you know, after false answers. And I think it's, it's just a kind of a slow moving train wreck because Until all these very sad kids started cropping up, nobody was really aware of how diminished the dyad had become. It happened very gradually and the first crops of kids weren't obviously immediately off track when they were you know, six or seven or eight. So we kind of got away with it, or we seemed to get away with it. And then ages started nudging lower and lower and lower of separation. And the number of kids turning out shaky in their sense of self started growing. So this is what I suspect. Because there can't unless it's a plastics in the water supply like how many things could it be, you know? Oh, it's that too pollution bad nutrition metabolic syndromes There are a few other things, you know, but I think the amalgamation of all of these things but but really why I have to go to dietic care is because I we know what happens to people who don't get secure attachment when they're little and it's lacking sense of self when they're older and having trouble self-regulating, having, you know, paranoid thoughts about others wanting to get them or, you know, they're not able to cope well because they don't have the kind of relational skillfulness, ability to read people, ability to be read by people, basic trust in those things. So I'm worried that if we're just looking at why are the kids so unhappy in social media and films, what we're not looking at is why are the parents so bad at guiding an unhappy kid out of their unhappiness? And why, where is the, natural skill for it. And I just think that is a skill you learn from your own mother. And so the fewer and fewer and fewer dyads there are, the more diffuse that skill gets, the more, you know, it's, it's not, you know, operating strength in society. And then of course, kids are facing this, these adults who don't seem to know what they're doing. And that's got to scare kids too.
Stephanie Winn: Anecdotally, I've met a fair number of detransitioners and desisters who had some kind of very early attachment trauma, like, for example, being born premature and spending their first, you know, four, six, eight weeks in the NICU. But this early separation in some way, whether it's time in the NICU or adoption. Adopted out, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't know if there's any data on it,
Laura Wiley Haynes: Well, the real expert in this stuff is Dr. Alan Shore, and he has studied suicidal people. And there's a huge likelihood, if you're a suicidal person, that you had relational trauma in your first year. And I think there's something about pre-verbal trauma where no one can explain it to you. You can't express it. You can't discharge it. No one has the means to reach you and say, this isn't your fault or whatever. So it's very easy for a baby to turn against themselves and to think there must be something wrong with me. And that's why I'm stuck here in this NICU and no one's touching me. You know, they don't understand someone's trying to save their
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, wow, that's fascinating, the suicide statistic. Can you say more about that?
Laura Wiley Haynes: Well, it's just that he feels that when a suicidal person has a set of symptoms that amplify one another and work together in a bad way, and they are to be emotionally dysregulated, to be physiologically dysregulated, like the vagus nerve or heart rate or queasy stomach, and also to be alexithymic. So you're divorced from being able to name or understand all of the things you're feeling, but you're feeling them with great intensity and they don't remit. and that if you get into the wrong cyclone of these things feeding off each other, it can take you down, suicidal despair, because it's just getting worse and worse, and you can't name it, you can't understand it, you can't get rid of it. And so that's his theory, and his other theory is that you can't really form a sense of self Until you can regulate your feelings and only after being able to handle calming down on your own and regulating your feelings on your own, are you finally aware that, oh, I actually have this other self that can do stuff without her. And that's the beginning of understanding your sense of self. While you're still just, you know, collapsing and sobbing over any small disappointment and mommy come in and scoop you up and help you, you're still not quite there at the cusp of selfhood the way you are when you can start doing something on your own to address your own distress. So those are his thoughts, and they make a lot of intuitive sense to me. And I can say anecdotally that all of the people I know who've had a trans identification have had a lot of disruption, whether group care, trauma, abandonment, and that kind of thing in early life. And again, from my CASA connection, most foster youth have had that happen to them because most of them, average age of surrender is quite young, is three, under three in California. So that'd be the average age, meaning, you know, seven or eight or nine would be old to enter foster care.
Stephanie Winn: Seems like from a developmental perspective that there are, I guess I'm thinking of it like wells that need to be filled at different stages and certain needs or developmental capacities have greater precedence during certain chapters of life. So for example, the narcissistic well is traditionally associated with ages three to five or six or so. It's that stage where the child has enough self-consciousness and enough of a separate sense of self to know there's a me for you to look at. You look at me, and who am I in your eyes? Am I good in your eyes? A child needs a certain amount of, yes, you are wonderful during that chapter of life in order to not have problems with narcissism later on. And so I'm thinking about, well, what are the other sort of wells that need to be filled before and after that? And part of what I hear you saying is that from early, early on, there's this well of nurturance and co-regulation at the really foundational level of what's happening in the nervous system that regulates everything else. And through good enough mothering during that phase, that allows the child to not be so dependent on the mother. And I wonder if you think that when you talk about failure to launch, and I'm glad you opened with that, because I think it is really tied in with the gender issues. And I think we should talk about what's going on in the developmental stages of 15 to 25 or so. But when you talk about failure to launch, it's like sometimes there's almost like they didn't get enough of something that was supposed to be supplied a lot earlier on. And so then there's a need for that at an inappropriate time. I'll give an example. So this is kind of analogous to what we're talking about, which is thinking about a parent of a mid twenties trans identified male who's recently on estrogen. and has been having these mood swings and tantrums that make him look like a 13-year-old girl. And I mean, that's what estrogen does to a male, right? And so I was talking with the parents about this idea of second puberty that they love, that they romanticize in the trans world. And I thought, if this is language that your son uses in his online discourse, if he's romanticizing his own mental health symptoms as part of, oh, it's just all signs of my second puberty, then maybe you can actually use some of that same language to talk about how vulnerable it must be in your mid-20s to be having these emotional meltdowns like a teenage girl in a context where you don't have the support of a teenage girl. You don't have parents and a society around you that's like, oh, well, there's just a moody teenage girl doing moody teenage girl stuff. No. It's a different look on a person of your age and sex, right? So just kind of framing it that way, like how do you feel like you can almost in some ways like afford, not just financially, but afford to experience the recklessness of the first few years of female roller coaster, setting aside the fact that those aren't even the right chemicals in his bloodstream, like So here it's like a young man who's in a time in life that he needs to be focused on building himself up, building up his reputation, his career, his financial security, what he has to offer as a mate. All that stuff is what a young man ideally needs to be focusing on at 25 if he's not going to be a train wreck at 30 or 40. But he's trying to get something that we associate with what a teenage girl's going through. But then I'm wondering what else is there, like this romanticizing the tearfulness, for example, that comes with being on estrogen. Because there are males who are, they're hot messes. They are crying and panicking constantly because they're taking these drugs that make them do that. And they're subscribing to an ideology that makes them messes. But then they romanticize it because it's all part of their second puberty and it's just evidence, it's confirmation that they're a girl. It's like, okay, so you're trying to get in touch with some vulnerable, needy part of you. But what happened when you were a baby? Because when you were a baby, that was when it was appropriate for you to cry. And that was when the world around you needed to take care of you in that state.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Yeah, and it makes me wonder two things. One, I wonder if it's an enactment of, see, I see it as the likelihood is that that young man now on estrogen was probably dysregulated prior to being on estrogen. and estrogen might, you know, tweak it and turn it up a notch, and it might excuse it in some way. But if you're self-regulated, you're not going to go backwards into lack of self-regulation, because self-regulation isn't a hormonal status. It's an ability to recognize how you feel and modulate, you know, if you're overwhelmed with unhappiness, how do you address that, that isn't lie down on the floor and, you know, wail. And we all have our specific ways. Some people go for a run, some people call a friend, some people take a bath, some people change a venue, you know, there's all kinds of things you can do to go All right, I'm not going to go overboard on this right now. It's not the moment I have to go to work or whatever. And so we all have our strategies, but developing strategies is part of growing up. And so it just strikes me that if somebody is 16 or 18 and they start on estrogen and they're having these crying jags, they were probably dysregulated beforehand. The other thing that kind of teases up my mind is that I see this is I see this behavior as an enactment and if you say no one can see the real me the real me as a girl and people only see an Adam's apple and a boy but It might be true that nobody can see the real them. It might be true in a much more profound way that, you know, for example, if something happens to you and you're a baby, nobody knows about it. I mean, I used an example one time of, let's say that the daycare provider's own child is pinching you every day, like you're a baby, you can't tell anybody about it. All you know is that it's really unhappy when you go to that house and you don't like it and this kid pinches you, you know? And that's just a simple explanation of something that's unseen, undealt with, unrecognized. And it could be a lot bigger, you know? And so I feel like sometimes these kids are saying, you don't see me or I can't locate me. And so if I can't locate me inside me, how can I find me, you know? And so they're trying, they're, they're barking up the wrong tree, but the dilemma may be real.
Stephanie Winn: That's so wise, and it goes right back to the conversation I just had with Dr. Elliot Kamenetsky. So he's an expert in obsessive compulsive disorder, and I was interviewing him about how gender ideation overlaps with OCD. And he talked about this fixation on the idea that I have a true authentic self somewhere. right, and that maybe I'm not being that person, and maybe I need to be trans in order to be that person. And how alluring this idea is, and we were talking about, you know, what is the element of truth in there? That there is a need for some kind of authenticity, a need to find yourself, and the danger, of course, being that now you're convinced that where you're going to find that involves a path of permanent physical self-harm. But it seems like there's a real theme here. And it's like, as I help parents try to unpack what's going on for their child, how to understand it psychologically, and then how to figure out how to use that understanding to address how they communicate differently, it's like if you're hearing that one element in the kid's story, this element of I'm longing to be the real me, what How can the parent maybe think about where some of that might be coming from? Is this a kid that was performing for you in some way, whether that's academically or something like that? Can you offer your empathy? But going back to your point, Laura, about where are the parents in their strength, I've noticed that. And I have wonderful people coming to me, and I'm very grateful for my consulting clients. But difficulty with remembering that you are the adult, is a theme for a lot of people. And I've coached people through really basic boundary setting, for example. Because if you're dealing with a young adult child, as a lot of my clients are, their kids are over 18, there are still things you can do. And so for example, I remember coaching a family in how to say, instead of getting really, really mad at your kid for disrespecting your time and showing up late to a family occasion, can you just say, Hey, if you're not here in 15 minutes, we're starting without you, you know, and, and noticing the family saying our kid would not be mad about that. And I'm going, okay, well then there's your work, right? There's your work. If you're not here in 15 minutes, we're starting without you. And everybody can stay regulated that way.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Well, and again, if you are kind of afraid to set a reasonable boundary with your child, things have been going off pace for a while. There should be nothing. I mean, I am worried about an adult who has a near adult child and still hasn't realized they have a right not to be made to wait at a restaurant for 40 minutes without ordering just because one person coming to the event hasn't shown up. And I know that, too, sometimes kids who lack a sense of self can get a little juice of self by making other people dance, you know, like You didn't wait for me? Well, I'll storm out and slam the door. Or, oh, everybody waited for me. I guess they really do think I'm important. But there can be a game being played in some of those behaviors. And if it's just really being a knucklehead and not paying attention to the time, then just start the dinner and they'll go, oh, wow, I couldn't believe how late I was. I'm so sorry. But either way, my parents were not afraid of me. At all. And I had intense feelings. And I disagreed with them. But I never, ever remember anybody lacking the gumption to draw a line, to tell me I was wrong, to punish me, to shame me. You know, I mean, they did not have a hard time Telling me. I'm really not proud of what you did, and this is really you know disappointing to me, and this is why you know and I'm not sure I would have wanted them to be afraid of me because then how do you fight back against someone? Who's who's walking on eggshells around you or how do you say? Oh that stupid jerk with his stupid opinion if he never got an opinion you know you kind of need to at least You know, whatever, you need the reality of a real person declaring their actual thoughts and feelings about the real things you're doing, or no one's in reality in the whole room, you know. And I'm not sure how you're going to get a kid to get more in reality if the very basic realities of the boundaries of others are not ever communicated, you know.
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Laura Wiley Haynes: You need to take care of you.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Yeah. And then you're afraid of your power, right? Because you're afraid of your emotions. You're afraid of everything because you're just like me, this little bundle of instinct and energy, right? That is still trying to make sense of the world and find my place in it. And like you're saying, like locate myself in relation to other beings. is inherently overwhelming to the adults, well then who are the adults? Is there anyone here?
Laura Wiley Haynes: If they're not over and if they're overwhelmed, you know, I remember I found something that I'd written down for my father once long ago and he'd saved it and I found it when I was cleaning out his desk after he died. And it was kind of a list of things that parents should remember about kids. And one of them was, you know, we're trying. We don't want to fight with you. You know, we're we're trying to get along with you. you know, don't have evil motives, you know, or whatever. And it was a few things like that. And I guess where I'm going with that is, if you If you are overwhelmed by your kid's anger and all your kid is feeling is, it's hard to be a teenager. You don't know the pressure I'm under. Everybody's been yelling at me all day long. I got a demerit in school. I got a bad grade on a test. And now you're picking at me. And they're just a good kid and a meltdown. And the mom or dad might be scared. Then on top of feeling like you don't get me, you're feeling like you don't even get that I'm a good kid. You think I, you think I'm a dragon that can burn you with my fire and I can't. I'm just, I want you to take care of me, not to, not to back away in fear of me. And, you know, I think when kids, teenagers are melting down, they're feeling very toddler-y. They have no sense that they're, you know, 5'11". They think they need care. That's mostly why people meltdown is feeling they need care. And then the parent is now afraid to give the care. And it's like a guessing game, whereas if somebody could just stand their ground and declare like, you know, this is where I am and had it be real, then it gives the other person at least the invitation to say, well, okay, you may think that, that this is where I am. And, but it's, I don't know, I get this feeling that a lot of parents are very unclear about how you could be both forceful and disagree and, and draw lines or boundaries. in a loving way that would feel loving or at least wouldn't feel unloving. And it shocks me that people don't understand that register because I would say like 90% of what my parents said to me or instructed me and was in that register. Well, you don't understand, but someday you're going to be older and you're going to see our point of view on this. I know that doesn't help you right now, but we have to kind of make a judgment call. And so here it is. And they spent a lot of time in that register of here it is and here's why. And we get it that you don't agree, but here are the principles that undergird our decision. And this is why we think it's the right decision. And I got a lot of it, you know, so it just doesn't flummox me to be able to deliver a lesson like that or to, I don't feel afraid of it because it didn't strike me as mean or harsh when my parents, you know, I might've cried or slammed the door and said, Oh, you're so mean, but it didn't lastingly make me think they're mean. I heard that they had another purpose in mind, like, you know, you cannot get the facial tattoo because we think you might regret that, you know? And I believed that they actually had my best interest at heart. And so even if I thought they were wrong, I didn't feel they were. And it seems like now, like, for example, it's infected into the schools. If a mother of a child who was raped or has autism says, I don't think this trans thing is really what's going on. How is it possible there are actual adults over 25 who are teachers in the school who think that is terrible, that is bigoted, that is something that ought to lose your child. It ought to lose you, your child, if you cannot get on board. with their every idea. And I just, like, I find it so mind-blowing. I find it so mind-blowing that anybody think that, you know, it's just sort of this enactment of great adultification of children and making children the authority on themselves and the authority on their identity and all of that at an age where they don't even have a meaningful sense of identity, what it even means. And at the same time, parents just terrified to be parents and unable to be parents and being so feeble or lame about about what many people would just see to be the normal parental reaction, the requisite parental reaction. And so this is what's informing me about my suspicions about lack of dyadic care as a big driver, because in a daycare group care situation, you are not getting parented. You aren't getting parenting. you aren't getting a lengthy explanation with the moral, or a story about your cousin who made the same mistake, or, you know, you're not, you're just getting like, chop, chop, time to line up, let's go eat, stop it. And so if you've grown up, and sometimes that happens in the home, I'm not saying like, you can't have a parent that is pretty much chop, chop, shut up and do what I say, because some parents are very authoritarian. But if you haven't had an authoritative parenting experience as a child, where do you come up with it? I mean, maybe you saw it on This Is Us. Maybe you saw somebody on TV or in a movie or in a book, but The feeling that it's natural to deeply disagree in a family from love and that nobody's head should fall off if that happens, you know, like that seems much fainter today than when I was a kid. We all, you know, get our own hand of cards. And some of the things our parents teach us or model for us are helpful, and some are unhelpful, and we all have to contend with that. And what I'm saying is, culturally, when not only do you have to contend with what you got and didn't get, but what you completely never saw, or which really just never entered into your way of being or thinking, And, you know, for example, too, I imagine that if you're separated from your child all day long and you go and pick him up at five o'clock, you don't want to say the big lecture and give a no that has good reasons behind it and is a teaching experience because you just got to see your child at the end of a long day and they just got to see you. And you kind of really rather say yes.
Stephanie Winn: A parent who only has your child half the time. it makes it really hard for him to discipline them because he misses, you know, he misses them for half the week. So the other half the week to feel like you missed them.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Yeah. Like you're mad at them.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. So it makes it hard to, you know, make sure that they have chores and responsibilities and that they get disciplined when they've done something wrong, because there's this, well, I, you know, I just want to enjoy the time I have with them because it's already not enough.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Yeah. And so, you know, when we change these small parts of our culture, we think of them as small parts. We change the entire meta for children. And, you know, there was a sort of a meta, like when I was a little girl, I was born in 1961. And when I think back to being like six or seven years old, you know, you call the other adults Mrs. So-and-so, you know, there were sort of There were rules, there were ways of being polite, ways of being a good guest, you know. My parents imparted those rules to me. They reinforced them a lot. And, you know, I just wonder, how do kids acquire social skillfulness and a sense of guiding rules? if they're never, ever just farting around in the neighborhood and going to somebody else's house and, you know, unexpectedly being invited for dinner and, you know, would all the little, wend your way through those things or, you know, I don't know. There's just so many things that are, like when I was little, it was normally you'd call someone on the telephone and you'd speak to their mother or their father before they'd put, your friend on the phone. And it was just typical and commonplace. And if you're 15 years old or 14 years old and you wanted to call your best girlfriend, you just had to run the gauntlet of their mother, their brother or somebody. before you could get to them. And, you know, then cell phones obliterated that. And now you have kids who are afraid to call some family friend that they've known for 20 years to see about whether they might have a job at the hardware store for them this summer. And they're just afraid to do it.
Stephanie Winn: Oh, yeah. So talk about failure to launch.
Laura Wiley Haynes: And so, like, all I'm saying is all the baby steps of launching Have a mom or a dad there, not a babysitter, not someone who doesn't care how you come out, not someone on whom your moral conduct does not reflect, like somebody who cares. and is vested in how you reflect on them. And sometimes that could be a negative way, too. But a parent really, more than anybody, is going to have a stake in how you come out. And they're going to take that extra time. And all of these experiences are just getting lost. And so, and, you know, summer jobs for that matter. I mean, how many high school kids had summer jobs when COVID was all of high school, you know? If I was a mother, I wouldn't want my kid working in some McDonald's job where they might get a disease there was nothing to treat, you know? So, we're just contracting the number of experiences that little children reliably have.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Yeah, I see it and I feel it and I see it for the D Transitioners too. I got into this exchange on X with Laura Becker about how she's trying to get all of her friends to move to Phoenix so they can live in a house together. I'm going, do it ladies, you're in your 20s. Your generation has missed out on so many formative social experiences. The least you can do is go live with your friends in your 20s and have some IRL, some in real life social experiences with your friends and you draw a good connection there between you know all those little things of your friend's mom picking up the phone and and just these things that used to be part of life and then people having the energy and skills for talking to adults when they are young adults. And it's all part of this failure to launch. Failure to launch is just a thousand micro skills that are all missing or underdeveloped or atrophied in some way.
Laura Wiley Haynes: And like a pre-smartphone childhood, you had to figure stuff out. Stuff happened. You had to figure it out. You couldn't just call your mom on her cell phone from your cell phone and be picked up. So, you know, you'd get dropped off somewhere all day. Then something happens. You don't have money, you know, or some things happen. I think when I was a kid, you had more opportunities to learn how to be resourceful. It was also a neighborhood, a suburban neighborhood type environment. So even if you had no money and really things went wrong, you're not getting way out of bounds on your street with people that you know, you know. So I was given a lot of opportunities to fend for myself and figure things out. And so by the time I went to college, it was not hard to launch. It was like, get me out of here. I'd love to be out of here and do my own thing for a while. I did not feel scared or intimidated by being across the country in a new place where I didn't know anybody because I was like chomping at the bit to do that. And part of the reason I was chomping at the bit for it was a little bit of benign neglect in my childhood that gave me the skills to, you know, to be just to plan things, to know how to take a bus, to know where the bus schedule was, to look up the schedule, to find out where I had to transfer and to go see a friend from summer camp when I was 12 years old. And I could do that whole thing. And like I said, there was a little bit of neglect probably sprinkled in there, but I think I was old enough by the time, like my mom got kind of in the 70s, got interested in yoga and Sanskrit and all of these other things and just started really pursuing her own interests. then again, we were sort of like 14 through 8 and At that point we could kind of you know Make dinner or do whatever do what needed to be done if my mom didn't make it home at the time We were expecting her or whatever So Yeah, so now I feel like there's this kind of concierging that parents are doing that is really not healthy and Then it makes them They lack mettle when it's really important to draw a hard no. If you haven't drawn reasonable no's for good reasons that you talked out many times when someone was 7, 9, 12, when they're 16 and you're like venturing a no for, you know, you're going to meet someone from a chat room? What? They're not necessarily going to feel you have any credibility. You're not going to know how to do it. You're not going to have the pattern of conflict, resolved conflict, come in for the hug, let me come upstairs in two hours and check on you. I know you're really disappointed in my decision. Do you understand why I think it was a good one? I'm understanding why you don't think it was a good one. And, you know, again, when you don't practice this and it falls into your lap with trans and a 16-year-old, I just think, you know, it's like asking for somebody to be a Black Diamond skier their first day on skis, you know. But if you've handled the three-year-old freaking out because they can't put shoes on the dog And they cry for 20 minutes and throw things and tell you you're mean. you know, you're not mean and well, okay. And you cruise through that, like that is just a little more ballast for when you really need the ability to, yeah, to draw boundaries, draw boundaries for yourself or for your child. And sometimes kids want you to, that's the other funny thing. I remember one time my daughter was invited somewhere that she knew it was a bad idea. and I heard her on the telephone she's talking to the person and she's saying oh I'll ask my mom I'll ask her right now just a second mom and I and she's shaking her head and I was like oh I'm sorry now she's like oh my mom said no so you know sometimes Sometimes they can't say no for a variety of reasons, you know, and I just, I just really feel badly. for the parents who are now young adults or adults who did not receive competent, boundaried parenting, because I don't blame them for not knowing that register. I just, I just think it's one of those things that you learn in the doing. And, you know, so now I'm really seeing the whole intergenerational thing is that the the child is learning how to be a parent, the parent is learning how to be a parent, the child is learning how to be a child, the appropriate roles of both in the context of that relationship and you keep adjusting and keep adjusting so it's kind of easy at the beginning because all you have to do is keep them fed and dry you know and held And they're not, you know, challenging you or pushing your buttons. Well, maybe they're pushing your buttons, you know, a little bit from fatigue. But so if you haven't received it, I know. And so then you wind up with a mother that was hit and she thinks, as long as I don't hit and scream. I'm being a good parent. So not hitting and screaming is the strategy, and it's certainly better than hitting and screaming, but there's like so much other stuff to know about. And my children would tell you I was very strict. If you asked them, they would say she was really strict. But then again, they all launched. They all launched right out of high school, graduated, went to college, completed college in the normal time frame, and got jobs and never were on the dole or home after that, you know? I probably was strict, you know, but I think I had purposeful strictness and I was asking things that were reasonable things because they imparted skills.
Stephanie Winn: It seems like so many parents are afraid to occupy that position of authority or maybe don't have a clear vision of what that is. And then they end up afraid. And then it seems like there's kind of this feedback loop where the kid's fear and the parent's fear are sort of amplifying each other because both have lost sight of who's really in charge here. So one of the principles I sort of reorient parents to when they need it is remembering not only that you are the adult, but that also you're responsible for setting the emotional tone. And then I mean, I just I encounter so many households where from talking to the parents, the kid is running the household emotionally, and it's not working out for anyone. Everyone's miserable. The kid has an experience that I imagined was a lot like my own experience of I'm in charge here, and I really don't want to be, because what the heck do I know about being in charge of the emotional atmosphere of the home? I'm a troubled teen with a trauma history and reckless impulses, right? So what do I know about this? Plus, it's my instinct to test for limits, try to figure out where the boundaries are, try to grab for power. In some cases, like you're saying, wanting to hear no and then feeling alarmed when I'm not hearing it. Because again, I'm in charge. What do I know about being in charge? So I imagine that the kid is having this experience, and I love the way you put it earlier that if the kid has the power to frighten the parent, then the kid is also learning that they are bad, right? So then I coach parents through realizing that nobody is benefiting from you allowing your kid to remain emotionally in charge. And so if the atmosphere that's being created by your kid being emotionally in charge of the household is one of fear, or that acronym fear, obligation and guilt fog from that book, emotional blackmail, right? If you're in the fog, fear, obligation and guilt, it's time for you to regain control. You know, and I think another thing is like the guilt part tends to confuse people because they don't know what they should be sorry for. So I have this sort of mantra I give people, which is, if I've done nothing wrong, I have nothing to apologize for. And if I have done something wrong, I have no problem apologizing. If you can own that, then you have nothing to be afraid of. Because you've just found your integrity right there. If I have done something wrong, I have the ability to self-reflect, right? Part of self-regulation. I can be my own authority, reflect on, well, have I done something that is out of alignment with my values, with my goals for our household? If so, let me self-correct. Let me acknowledge that. If I haven't, I have nothing to be sorry for. But you end up with these households where the parents are apologizing for things they haven't done wrong. like recognizing their child's correct sex, for instance, apologizing for that, which is why I teach this tool called strategic apologizing, which is where you understand that there's an attempt at power here and some kind of expression of aggression or disappointment. So you try to absorb some of the blows of that. You're working with the energy of the adolescent's frustration. You're saying, I'm really sorry about, but then you're being very precise. in how you frame what it is that you're sorry for and what it is that you're not sorry for.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Right. Like, I'm so sorry that you are missing this thing you wanted to do because you're grounded. And don't love that you're furious at me and don't love that you're really unhappy about missing it. But I'm not changing my mind or since you're aware of, you know, or I'm sorry that I
Stephanie Winn: that I have changed my mind about something because I know something now that I didn't know before. I'm sorry I didn't know this before. Same with taking away the phone. So you have a 13, 14, 15, 16-year-old where you should be in charge of parental controls. You should be deciding if your kid should even have a cell phone at all. And if so, what are the parameters around that? And so many parents gave their kid a phone at 13, regret it within a year, So if it feels to your kid like you're going backwards, like you're taking something away from them, then that's the part that you apologize for. I am sorry. It feels like I am taking something away from you. It feels like we're going backwards towards you having less freedom and independence and responsibility rather than more. And that's got to feel weird.
Laura Wiley Haynes: That was my mistake. I should not have led you to believe that this phone was a fixture for you.
Stephanie Winn: Exactly. My mistake was that I gave it to you in the first place, because I didn't know then what I know now.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Well, and, you know, I mentioned a minute ago about authoritative, and I think that's a really important distinction, which I'm sure you're aware of, the difference between an authoritarian parent, an authoritative parent, and, I guess, the pushover, but I don't remember. Passive or… Yeah, and the worst is an authoritarian who's just… arbitrary and mean. The next worst is the one who says yes all the time. And the sweet spot is the sometimes no for good reason, yes where possible, not coercive, emotionally, you know, emotionally trustworthy. And I think my parents were just like, my dad was in the, my mom was more of a pushover and my dad was more of an authoritarian, but he was authoritative. I would give him authoritative because I didn't think he couldn't be reached. And I didn't think he was always unfair. You know, I felt like he was often fair and you know, it's, it's just like, how do you help a parent? Grab a whole set of behaviors and a whole way of thinking about interrelating with a with their child That didn't get built from baby steps up. It's just got to be so so hard and You know of course you are always empowered to say well new rules. You know and didn't know before. Now I do know. This is how we're doing it now. Sorry, it's a big change, but we're making this change. And you do have, I mean, you have the authority, even if you don't know you have it. The minute you take it, you have it, you know. But, but if you've There's two things. If you've been led to believe that crossing someone's wishes is being mean to them, that would make it hard to take your authority. And the other thing that would make it really hard is you might have to bear the full weight of how unhappy your kid is. And I think that for many people is sort of the sticking point, because if they placate, it doesn't then their whole enchilada doesn't come out and they don't have to deal with it, that it's placated and it's quiet again.
Stephanie Winn: And there is an example that you gave earlier that I thought illustrated that point really well, because the way that you provided the example really made it clear that the parent had one goal in that conversation, which was to make sure the kid knew what the new boundary was. And I advise this. It's part of my course. It's when you are informing your child about a new rule or boundary, or about how things are going to be, or about the fact that they're not getting something that maybe you told them you'd think about, that is your one goal in that conversation, is to deliver that news. I'm sorry. I've thought about it. And the answer is no. Right? If you can walk away from that conversation with them understanding that the answer is no, you've done your job. But I think a lot of parents I talk to, they have such a desire for their kid to understand and agree with them and feel good about their decision. Right? And the truth is, like, a kid is going to be disappointed and mad, and they're not going to understand your reasoning. which is why I say, you know, with regard to – and you include – when you define authoritative, you make sure to include sharing your reasoning. But I also – I have some practices around advising not sharing your reasoning just any old time. You know, saying something like, you know, for example, if the kid is really upset, I understand you're really upset right now. I'm happy to explain my reasons for this when you're ready to hear them. Right now, though, it seems like your feelings are really big. Maybe we just need to give you some time to adjust to this news before we talk about why. So compartmentalizing it a little bit, which I think is good modeling of the fact that when we are emotionally dysregulated, that's not necessarily a time that our brains are open to new information, like why someone else made a decision that we don't agree with.
Laura Wiley Haynes: And if you're just trying to get up to speed with setting the boundary, Don't bite off more than you can chew. Just set the darn boundary and elegantly leave.
Stephanie Winn: And you have to be ready for that one thing. And I've seen parents screw this up. And when you screw it up, it's like, well, now your boundary is meaningless. And you've just set yourself back, right? Because it needs to be clear. If you go into a conversation with the goal of delivering certain news that your kid is not going to like, that is your only goal, right? And you have to be willing to say, I'm sorry that you're so disappointed by my decision. And just like the example you gave back earlier, I'll check on you in a couple hours. And having what's within bounds and what's outside of bounds in terms of how that kid is allowed to process their disappointment. If they want to sulk and listen to music, that's fine. If they want to go on Discord and talk to their trans friends, no. They're not allowed to talk to their trans friends right now online about how they're mad at your decision. Because you know that's going to make things worse. Wherever the boundaries might be might be variable from one situation to another. But I've seen so many parents end up kind of screwing up their attempts to set a boundary because they try to accomplish too many different things in one conversation.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Or they don't want their kid to be mad at them. You know, there are parents who are so busy placating because they're just afraid to wear a child's great disappointment and anger. And it's like, you're not going to die from that. It's okay if your kid thinks you're a total asshole. You know, that's okay. Who hasn't felt that way once in a while about their parents, you know? I just don't see that it's a be-all end-all problem, but I think what happens is parents are so busy wanting their kid to know that I'm coming at this from a well-meaning place. that it's like challenging and upsetting to have the kid reject that interpretation.
Stephanie Winn: But you know what's really paradoxical about that is that if the parent is dependent on the child for shoring up their self-image of being a person with good and not corrupt motives, then ultimately that instills doubt in the child, right? Because someone who's actually got a clear conscience and understands that their own motives are coming from the right place, they're not going to put that on a child to reflect that back to them.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Right. You don't need it and you hope that like one day, maybe not too long from now, or maybe years from now, you hope that one day it'll be recognized that you did some hard decisions with grit and heart for good reasons. But they may not. They may still think you're strict. And it's just that like, Yeah, and again, you would feel a lot more afraid of a child that you didn't have a day in, day out, mostly having a good time together experience of living with. You know, like if this was your one, two hour window of the day to dinner, I mean, it's cruel and inhuman that dinner and bedtime would be the main time you'd spend with a tired, cranky kid who's four. I just think that parents that are stuck in that are not developing the kinds of skills that they need and I don't I'm not really sure what the answer is because Some of it is a sort of a long slog through long days, you know Some of the ways you get good at it. Some of the ways your kids get good at hearing it is practice, you know, so I just yeah, I I think it's really important that I do apologize to my kids when I've hurt them, when I've made a mistake, if I'm aware I've made a mistake. I absolutely apologize. And it's much easier than defending against it, you know. But there was something else you were just saying about explaining, oh, well, explaining the reasons. Like, for example, you could explain the reasons why you are not supporting a trans identity very factually. This doesn't make sense to me. How can I endorse something that I think is illogical? Why do I think it's illogical? Oh, it only showed up 10 years ago. You know, I mean, you can talk that through with someone who's mad as hell and thinks you're wrong and slamming the door, but I don't see that any parent should hesitate to give their honest assessment of what they really think about this highly risky idea that their kid has brought to them and And whether they think their kid has the kind of emotional maturity and sobriety to make those decisions, you know, it shouldn't be, you shouldn't have to be afraid to say, I know more than you, I've been alive for 45 years, 35 of which didn't have this topic anywhere in adolescence. So, you know, You may think I'm just a dum-dum and I'm behind the times, but I don't think brand new important realities about humanity are discovered by middle schoolers and taught to parents. That's unlikely, you know. And I think it's also important that a parent could say, who would I be if I pretended to buy into something that I think is completely far-fetched and quite dangerous. Who would I be if I just went, oh, OK, that's what you want? OK, sure. I would just not even be your parent. I wouldn't be your mother. I wouldn't be your friend. How could I say that I cared about you and cross my fingers behind my back and just nod along? I couldn't do that. That's not who I am. That's not moral character. And I just think if you can frame even a really disagreeing stance. that way it's going to take a little bit of an edge off the child judging you for it because you aren't saying, you know, this is against God or whatever. You're saying this is against logic. And my job is to slow you down when I see something that's a bad plan. And you know, if I can become convinced, if you can convince me of the merit of a plan, it's a different thing, but I'm not convinced yet.
Stephanie Winn: I think the examples that you gave are the would be beautifully effective for a lot of the families with the younger kids where they still, you know, they're still under your roof. You still have the time and the ability to influence and especially where there is secure attachment. and where the foundation of the relationship, you know, the kid can hear everything that the parent just said, as you exemplified, and, you know, deep down go, yeah, that checks out, right? That seems really consistent with my mom's character. So it feels like a reality check. I think it's trickier when, when there's a family where they're really fearing estrangement from an adult child. You know, I've, I've worked with families where They have, let's say, a kid in their 20s who has given them reason to believe that if the kid believes that the parents don't support the trans identity, they will completely cut them off. And the parents consult with me at a time when they haven't revealed all their cards yet. They haven't told their kid what they really think. From a lot of those situations, I often sort of assess, you know, at this point in time, all the information that your child does not have is information that gives you a leg up in a situation where you're otherwise at an extreme disadvantage. They're in a world where everyone else but you is going to support this. They're doctors, therapists, friends. Everyone is going to encourage this, the college staff if they're in college. So sometimes keeping cards closer to your chest And plotting very carefully strategically, I can teach parents techniques for that. It just goes to show how what's going to work for one family is different from another. But that being said, I think there are a lot of families who could afford to take more risks, especially with the younger ones who are in some ways kind of looking to them to mirror their own doubts about this. Like you gave the example earlier of when your daughter was on the phone and for those who were just listening, you explained that she was shaking her head no while claiming to be asking you. I think there are a lot of similar situations where the request for a boundary is not nearly so overt. But I think parents get so frightened by this whole trans thing and so thrown off by it for the ones who didn't see it coming that it's like they they lose their logic. They lose their own logic. And it becomes difficult for them to see ways in which despite whatever their kid is saying or doing, their kid is actually revealing that they have doubts about this. They're just not saying it. You know, they're not saying, I'm not sure, right? Because why would they do it like that, you know? Like you have to learn. Yeah.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Between the lines is a skill. Again, it's a practice skill. You know, you see a kid come home from school and they're kind of like downcast and giving you one word answers. You know, you've seen that three times, you know something happened at school. You know it's just not reading between the lines is very much a right brain kind of a skill and it's and it's entering into the mind of another person which isn't always easy for people. and checking what you're observing against what it's bringing up in your own feelings and your own body and having the confidence to know that you probably read it pretty close to what's going on. And maybe there's going to be a little adjustment, you know, but if your kid says, Oh, nothing happened, say, Oh, come on, you just do not yourself, you know, like follow it up a few times, you know, and maybe they're not going to be ready to talk about it that day, but Yeah, I think the problem of a 20-something kid who is, and you've got an ax above your neck, but they're going to cut off the family is that horse is so out of the barn. that it's got to be so difficult. I think my instinct would be if they smelled doubt on me and that was my situation, I'd say, what do you want me to do, lie or tell the truth and respect that you're old enough to make your own life? but tell you the truth of what I think would be a wise move at this at this juncture. Because I could just fake it but I don't think that shows you any respect. And like put your differentiation from a point of view of I wouldn't lie to a friend I thought was making a mistake. I wouldn't lie to my sister if I thought she was making a mistake. I'm certainly not going to lie to you. I could hold my tongue, You know, we've got choices, but one of them isn't pretending and lying. That I'm not going to do. You know, and I'm thinking of one trans identified person I know. I've been honest with them and said, this is not a belief system I subscribe to. And, and I don't really care, you know, how a person presents himself to the world and what their style is and what floats their boat. But, you know, I, I just see it differently. And this person doesn't seem to have a problem interacting with me. But I was honest, just saying, I don't, this is not how I think about it, but I'm willing to respect your autonomy to have your own thoughts.
Stephanie Winn: Today's sponsor, Cozy Earth, is offering my listeners 40% off their selection of luxurious bedding, bath sheets, lounge apparel, and skincare products. Transform your space into a sanctuary of serenity and renewal. Check out their best-selling bamboo sheet set and plush luxe bath sheets. Visit CozyEarth.com slash Sumtherapist and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take 40% off your purchase. If you get a post-purchase survey, say that you heard about Cozy Earth from this podcast and they'll send you a free set of socks. All right, now back to the show. I'm going to mention a can of worms, but not open it. So when you were giving that example, Laura, of really clear, authoritative communication, what do you want me to do? Lie? Actually, let me Put that thought on pause just to reflect that I think one of the skills you're modeling throughout our conversation is the way that you're non-verbally communicating as well. People can hear in your vocal tone that your tone is either authoritative in like a calm, This is how it's going to be, right? So the right pace, going down at the end, not defensive or heightened, right? So there's that tone that you use, and then there's also like a playful tone that you use. And both of those are really important nonverbal forms of nonverbal communication that if you said the exact same words in an anxious or angry tone, it would come across as a completely different communication. So I just wanted to bring listeners' attention to that piece because it's equally important as the words. But that being said, as you were giving that most recent example of what do you want me to do lie, I was thinking about a family I know that I basically coached through having that exact conversation. And the kid's answer was yes. And so the can of worms I'm going to mention but not open for today, because that's a whole other conversation, is that some of these kids, I mean, first of all, there's like a dangling carrot that they're always chasing with the gender affirmation. They're always telling you, that their happiness lays just around the next corner. And it's hard to believe because it's not true. But and there's an insatiability to it. But this idea that I am going to be satisfied by people lying to me, that is a cluster B idea. And I'm just going to put a pin in that. And when I say cluster B, I mean the traits and behaviors associated with narcissistic, borderline histrionic and antisocial personality disorders. And there's a lot of overlap. between the traits and behaviors of those disorders and the gender madness. And they all go together with certain beliefs about social justice. And together, those three things form a trifecta. And so my course is about the trifecta, how to deal with all of it. So I hear the, yes, I do want you to lie to me piece. I just want you to feed me the image of myself that I want to be fed, not the image that you see. Well, that's a narcissistic behavior. And that points to a deeper problem.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Well, the other thing is those cluster B behaviors do source in lack of attachment and neglect in early life. So it's all of the same piece because it's like by the time that kid has gotten into this cluster B behavior, that's not something one diagnoses. quite young, it's something maybe as a teenager you'd say showing traits, and then in adulthood you might make that diagnosis. And part of it is because younger people are less regulated and they haven't always developed some of the skills that they still can develop, and avoiding a cluster B, you know, result. But The cluster B behaviors strike me as feeling so bad about how things are that you want to control, how everybody regards you and treats you and speaks to you and the language that they use and what everything. It's like I was thinking of the movie Carnal Knowledge with Jack Nicholson, and he's such a control freak that he has to have his girlfriend act out a script every time they have sex, you know. Fluffing him up in the ways that he needs to be fluffed up to be powerful so that he can perform sexually, you know And then she makes a mistake and the whole thing falls apart and it's a it's a false as you point out, you're not going to be made happy by everybody pretending because then you'll just get to the next crossroad and people won't know what their script is and they'll do and say things that disappoint you and they'll, you know, you'll just get to the next thing. It's never over if you need to control the responses and reactions of other people in order to regulate yourself, you know. But I think even a cluster B person, I mean, I really have a strong belief in authentic, if you authentically love a person. and have credibility as a loving person. I think even a really angry and mentally unhealthy relative can be talked to from the loving and honest place. And again, it may take a number of repetitious before anything gets through. But, you know, you're not having a relationship with somebody that you're kowtowing to and having to lie to or they're going to ask you, you know, just like you're not having a relationship with a man who makes you, you know, feel you have to tap dance like that, you know, just to keep him happy. Like you're not relating to that person. You're just being abused by them. And I don't know, like, I don't know what the answer would be. I think it would be very, very, very hard for me to give up on anybody that I loved, but I don't, I think it would be harder for me to, to perform an inauthentic version of myself in order to be reprieved from, you know, rejection.
Stephanie Winn: And some parents are in that difficult place of having to make that decision of do I let go of trying to have a relationship with my child at all in order to not tolerate abuse? Because some some ROGD parents settle for really one-sided relationships where it's, you know, just taking or just abuse or, you know, sometimes they just settle for, well, I pay my kid's cell phone bill so that I can see who they're texting and that's it. And that's all that they have. And sometimes it's like, well, am I better off like that or taking the plunge and setting a limit and being authentic and knowing that they might not talk to me for years.
Laura Wiley Haynes: It's, it's so heart-wrenching. The Pitt parents pieces that go up on Twitter and the, at GenSpect, some of the people that I sat with when I went to Denver were parents in that situation. Some estranged, long estranged, years estranged. And there they are showing up at GenSpect, you know, six years later. trying to better understand what's going on with their child who has totally broken their heart and won't speak to them. So I don't know, like, It's just so painful to witness the deep love and terrible disappointment of some of these parents. And I don't, I really can't imagine how, how you deal with it. But I just know that if you, if you feel in your heart of hearts that something is terrible and wrong for your child, I think you're kind of obligated to say so. If you say it's not wrong and it's great, you're enabling something I don't know. I mean, if they're determined to do it, whether or not you enable, I don't know what to say. I think it's really important to try to build these skills at an earlier point in time if you possibly can, and You know, some things might be even at 20 would be like, look, I know I've heard of parents that have sort of bargained with their trans identified kids to say, just don't medicate to just don't medicalize till you're 25. Like, get out of college and I'll pay for college and I'll have insurance and you can do it. But please wait. And then hoping that they outgrow it. I've heard that as a tactic.
Stephanie Winn: I think that that buys you time. But in itself, it's not enough because I've definitely met families that do that. And as long as you are working on other things to try to get through to them in a different way, but the problem is some of these young people spend important years of their lives reinforcing this obsessive thought about who they are and these obsessive behaviors. Even if they're not medicalizing, it's the things they're doing to try to pass and and socially transition and all that kind of stuff. And it's not insignificant to spend, you know, the years 18 to 23, for instance, in, in this belief system. And I've honestly, I meet so many parents where they've been in this for years and then they reach out to me because there's some ticking time bomb. like their kids turning 18 in six months or their kid. The most extreme example was I'd never met this parent before and they reached out the week before their child had a surgery scheduled. And so we were able to meet once and I was able to say, you know, here's given what little I know about your situation, what you could try now, but you know, it was too little too late. So I try to be realistic when families contact me and they're like, yeah, there's this thing happening like next week. Can you help us? I'm like, I don't know you well enough to – I can give you some general tools and that's what my course will be for. But I would definitely advise if you're listening to this and you're not that deep into it or You don't have a trans-identified kid, but you have kids. You have to be prepared to start early. And yeah, I do agree. I mean, I've seen situations where maybe the kid's only been trans-identified for a year, but the behaviors and the relational problems are definitely indicative of a problem going way back. And if you had a problem with setting boundaries and giving your kid natural consequences, When it was like ordinary parenting stuff, you were going to have a much bigger problem when they start thinking that they're the opposite sex.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Right, and it almost seems like maybe, and this is just a fleeting thought and it probably doesn't apply to every situation, but maybe there are parents who are so accommodating that there aren't that many ways for the kid to really get their goat and up the ante to the level of, you know, cage fighting besides something like, I'm trans, you know. Or I'm not going to college or whatever, you know something that's kind of big because I think parents, I think children would like to have parents who can take appropriate authority. I think most children want that and it makes them feel safer. And so if you've never kind of taken appropriate authority or you've just let this go and you've let that go, it might not be that surprising that your kid is going to take a more noxious behavior to test out on you. And yeah, I would say to any parents who are feeling shaky about saying no to their kids, get on that. Get on that in grammar school and realize how much no is important and how not being a doormat is modeling how they're not going to be a doormat. You know, there's so much more to it than, oh, I disappointed my my child by giving an answer they don't like. You have to be able to have credibility. Your child should understand that sometimes the most loving answer that a parent can give is no. Sometimes That's built into the relationship. Kids do stuff that, you know, aggravates parents and parents do stuff that aggravates kids. You know, that's just part of it and learning how to be aggravated, wend your way through, resolve it, have a rupture, have a repair. These are all like things that make you closer. down the line. And so just trust them. And I always mentioned Gordon Neuseld, but I think Gordon Neuseld is just brilliant on this stuff. And he says, you just basically have to be a person who they care about pleasing. they care about and trust, you know, and then you've got the credibility and authority. And one of the main things you provide as a parent is the place to cry. When when life gives a bad answer, you know, you didn't make the team, you're not in the play, whatever it might be, if you're the person that your kid can call sobbing, and say, pick me up right now. And you can comfort them and you can help them face something that's like a no answer and have their back while they're facing that. No, rather than rescuing them, rather than calling the, you know, theater arts department and griping that your kid didn't get a part in the play or whatever, you know, you don't have to fix it. You just have to model what we do when we're terribly disappointed by an answer, you know? And Gordon Neufeld has a couple of really good YouTubes, but the one that I'm thinking of is just talking about how if you develop this credibility, then the rest of parenting is just kind of easier. You know, it's just they, they trust that you have their back. Sometimes the no comes from you. You still comfort them when they're disappointed and they develop resilience to deal with disappointments, you know, little disappointments and big ones. Yeah, I, I, It's really, really hard for people that find themselves here with a 17-year-old who's full of hormones and is peer-oriented. That's another thing Neufeld talks about is that there's a point in time when your kids will turn to their peers. And if you aren't that person who is a place for them to cry already, you're going to have a very hard time retrieving that kind of a relationship because, you know, the time to get the credibility as the place to cry is, you know, kind of like up to 12 or so before they're, and you know, this is the terrible thing with this culture. Like it would, it used to be that if you're, if you had a kid with a pending personality disorder profile coming up with a really terrible idea, They might have peers, you know, or a creepy person online who's encouraging that idea. But it's only just recently that a therapist and a teacher and a counselor and a friend's mom might all encourage your child and their terrible idea. I mean, which is really asking a great deal of this parent when they have to override the whole culture and they're already on thin ice with their kid. So that's just another horror that parents are going through now, that there seem to be this infinite number of brainless people who will wrath by these terrible ideas, not even knowing your child, not even knowing about their autism or their abuse history or whatever else may be going on with them.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, exactly. And going back to what you said earlier about saying no makes me think of the fact that if you're a parent, you have a mission. And the ultimate goal of your mission is to make sure your kids will be okay when you're gone. And so what does that mean? Well, you probably want them to have someone to love who loves them back. So As part of that, are there behaviors you're tolerating that they're learning are okay, that no self-respecting human being would tolerate in a romantic relationship? You probably want your kid to be able to support themselves. Are you teaching them to respect hard work and cherish the fruits of their labor? Are you teaching them how to get along with a variety of people? I mean, you know, these are all things where if you're not willing to say no within the context of the unconditional love that you have, then are you in the end crippling them from developing the capacities they will need to support themselves when you're gone? And sometimes I have to say that it's a really sobering thing to say to someone, but it's a reminder, it's a wake-up call because so many parents end up in this pattern of enabling that it's like, well, they're not going to make it without you around.
Laura Wiley Haynes: And we had sort of said this right before we started recording about enmeshment, which is the opposite kind of pattern. Well, I guess enmeshment can be enabling too, but you can have an ostensibly close relationship with a not angry kid and still not be standing in reality and modeling good boundaries and being all caught up in them. I remember a neighbor we had, and she literally talked to her children in college every day. And it made me feel like I had been there, because, you know, 10, 12, 15 days would go by, maybe 15 days would go by, I'd think, gosh, they haven't called me, let me make sure what's going on, and I would text them, and they'd say, oh yeah, everything's great, and then I'd just back away again, because I didn't talk to my parents, When I was in college, we didn't have even cell phones, you know, we didn't even have answering machines. So maybe they called me and it rang, you know, and I wasn't there and that was that. And, you know, weeks went by. So I just felt it was hovering to to check in on the telephone every day. I don't know. That did not seem normal to me. Maybe it's normal, you know, now, but I'm not sure it's really healthy because it kind of is saying, are you okay? Are you okay? Check. Am I okay? Are we connected? And I kind of think maybe You know, I don't think my children felt like I didn't care to talk to them. I just think they felt like they were doing their own thing and I was respecting it. But with this electronic leash we now have with kids, it might be a lot harder to navigate the appropriate level of looking in on someone. You know, like if they're on a field trip, do you check in? Did you eat dinner? Are you up? Did you wake up? I mean, I think there are parents who are doing that for their teenagers, making sure they woke up. which, which seems alarming.
Stephanie Winn: There's also a common trend of kids not being particularly motivated to leave their parents' house, which is really weird when it's in combination with kids identifying as trans and parents not believing in it. Like, that's a weird combination. You know, and I've even had, like, I can't remember the age of the child. They were at least 20, though. And the parent was reporting to me that the child, like, threatened to move out if the parent didn't support the idea. I was like, okay, well, try saying this. Sweetheart, whatsoever makes you think that I don't celebrate you having the independence to move out. I would love for you to move out and that's this perfect time for that. I don't see what that has to do with the gender stuff. I just want to make sure when you move out that you're healthy and you're able to support yourself. Frankly, as long as you're on this gender stuff, it seems like it's consuming all your attention. not necessarily gonna help you thrive out there in the world.
Laura Wiley Haynes: I wonder if it's a way of separating without separating. Totally. You know, like… I can piss you off, oppose you, and totally differentiate from you while you bring me dinner.
Stephanie Winn: And there's so many things like that. Like, for example, I meet so many families where they tell me their kid's chosen name, their trans name, And it bears a striking similarity to either their birth name, mother's maiden name, grandmother's name, like something in their family history. And it's like, okay, so on the one hand, they're trying to sever the connection and say, this is my dead name, and I reject the name you give me and everything. But on the other hand, even in the forging of a new identity, they're trying to cling on to their family and their history. If you know what to look for, it's like you said earlier, reading between the lines is a skill, and that's what I teach people to do. If you know what to look for, there are signs of ambivalence and doubt written all over the behavior of these trans-identified kids, but the parents are so afraid of what they say they're determined to do that they miss the signs of ambivalence.
Laura Wiley Haynes: Do you remember it was Sage's Law, that story, and Sage's trans name was Draco, And you know, no, there is no one named Draco except the villain in Harry Potter, you know, and if you pick a name like Draco or Adolf, you're probably saying something very self-hating about yourself. You're picking, you're not, you know, some of these names are loaded with symbolism. And so, If you're saying the real me is Draco, you're not just saying I'm a boy, you're saying I'm a bad, evil, corrupt boy. And that might just be saying, I don't feel like a strong self person and I hate myself. And so it might have zero to do with gender, but it's a way of saying, I'm not who you think I am. I'm really a bad person.
Stephanie Winn: Isn't it interesting, too, that someone named Sage would choose that name because Sage is kind of a gender-neutral name? And then you also hear these stories about kids changing their names three and four times in the course of a year, you know? And again, it's just like, identity instability is a sign of possible borderline personality disorder, people, and you know this is getting missed by clinicians.
Laura Wiley Haynes: I'm aware of a child of somebody that I know who is now an adult and medicalizing, non-binary, but medicalizing, another thing I don't particularly understand. But this person put a post up on social media talking about still haven't got the euphoria And I thought to myself, this kid has been unhappy and identity seeking since they were a young teenager. They changed their name two times with prior to gender ever coming along. And so I shared with their mom, I just said, look, it seems to me that this is the same wheel going around and around and around again, and that your child may think that this gender frame provides an answer to this long-term chronic problem, but my bet is this is a long-term chronic problem and there's gonna be a next generation of it because I've seen now three or four turns of this wheel. And I said that because the mother was very afraid of not being supportive enough. You know, this is this is an adult. There's nothing that this mother can really say or do at this point. But I think I had the impression that this mom might have been feeling a little bit like a hostage, you know, like
Stephanie Winn: I keep looking for a good moment to wrap up the conversation, but everything you say is so valuable. It's like, well, that brings up another thing because I use the analogy of hostage situations a lot. And some of the techniques I use are derived from Chris Voss, the expert hostage negotiator. But with that said, I'm just going to have to interrupt our conversation and make sure that we move on with our days. It's always such a pleasure talking with you, Laura. Thank you so much for joining me today. So remind people where they can find you.
Laura Wiley Haynes: I'm on Twitter at Haynes_Wiley and please say hi.
Stephanie Winn: Thanks so much, Laura. It's been a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit sometherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at sometherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.