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The Smoke Trail, hosted by Smoke Wallin, is a journey into awakening consciousness, weaving authentic stories and deep discussions with inspiring guests to unlock high performance and perfect health. Each episode delves into spirituality, leadership, and transformation, offering tools to transcend trauma and find your bliss along the way. It’s a reflective space for achieving peak potential and inner peace in a distraction-filled world.
Welcome to The Smoke Trail hosted by Smoke Wallin. Join Smoke on a unique journey of awakening consciousness, sharing authentic stories and deep discussions with inspiring guests. Explore spirituality, leadership, and transformation, tools to elevate your Path.
Smoke:Welcome to the Smoke Trail.
Chris:Yes. I have been looking forward to the Smoke Trail.
Smoke:My good friend Chris Clemens.
Chris:Yeah. Happy to be here.
Smoke:I think we'll talk about some interesting topics today. Yeah. The purpose of the Smoke Trail is to explore spirituality and leadership in today's world. That is monumental. My intent is simply to help one person or maybe a lot of people, but whoever needs to hear it, hear this kind of dialogue and discussion and leaders talking about these issues, talking about what is consciousness, what is spirituality in today's environment is important conversations to have, I believe.
Chris:Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think what you're doing is great. I think leaders who are not in touch with what I would call the faith component of their journey really are missing the other pieces where they need to grow. It's all part of their journey, right?
Smoke:Yeah. Well, we're all on our own journey. Yeah. Hence, smoke trail.
Chris:Yes.
Smoke:It's my show, so I named it. But it's really about the journey we all go through in life. And my way is not the right way or the wrong way. It's just my way, what I'm doing. And, you know, Chris, you have your path and everyone has their own journey.
Smoke:And the the beautiful thing and the realization that we all come to at some point is nobody does it for you. Mhmm. Yes. That's very true. I mean, it's it's it is your own path.
Chris:Yeah. And nobody makes it
Smoke:out of here alive. Nobody makes it out
Chris:of here alive. That's right. And and what my experience has been, when we get to our age, our advanced age, versus when we were young bucks and running hard. Running hard. And carefree.
Chris:And carefree, and, And also had probably some things that happened to us that, you know, informed our experience at the time. When you get older, you reach a point where you start questioning, Is this all there is? Is there anything more? And those are the things that really captivate you and catch you and move you forward. Yeah.
Chris:And you can decide how you're going to move forward and
Smoke:which way. Yeah, and I think everyone comes to that question at some stage. Yeah. Some people wait until their deathbed. Yes.
Smoke:It's true. Some people start asking those questions way earlier than you or I did. Yeah. There's no there there's no wrong or right thing. I I love this analogy.
Smoke:I Jim Finley, who I really love is, you know, has the whole series on the Christian mystics.
Chris:Mhmm.
Smoke:And he Yeah. You sent me some stuff on that. Yeah. It's great. And he, you know, he talks about Meister Eckhart and Theresa of Adela and John of the Cross, and he has seasons on each of these people.
Smoke:And I I highly recommend it. It's it's it's a wonderful series, and he's got a great way about him. And he he's part of that Richard Rohr platform. Okay. So he's got a pretty good platform.
Smoke:But he uses this analogy in one of his books when he's talking about Thomas Merton of the river. And so if the river is is our connection with divinity, it's our connection to god. It doesn't matter if you live next to the river or live far away. Doesn't matter if you're a young child and you put your foot in the river and get wet, or if you're an old person and you stumble into the river and get wet. You're still wet.
Smoke:Yeah. Doesn't matter if you had a battle hordes of barbarians and with swords to fight to get to the river. Eventually, you get wet. Yeah. Or you had a peaceful stroll through a flower path with beautiful people helping you along the way and you get in, you're wet.
Smoke:Regardless, you get wet. You're not more wet, you're not less wet. You find so I I would I just love this whole analogy of, you know, there's no there's no one way, but the one thing that remains constant is we're all gonna
Chris:get wet. Yeah. That's a beautiful analogy. I I've always really believed in the same type of analogy of God's gonna get you. And it's it's not your timeline.
Chris:It's actually his. But he's gonna get you. And I know a lot of people are like, well, I've got all this stuff to do. Gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, and I'm gonna go here and I'm gonna go there. And I'm like, okay, great.
Chris:Where are you in your faith journey Right now. Well, don't I believe in God and I believe in the spirit. I believe in this. But do you really? And what are you pursuing?
Chris:A lot of those people are pursuing the world. They're pursuing stuff. But eventually, they're gonna get tucked in the river. Yeah. To use your analogy, I mean, eventually, it's gonna become so overwhelming.
Chris:They're they're going to crawl to the river. Yeah.
Smoke:I wanna hear about how you got to the river. And, you know, we all have our own journey. You know, you've shared some really intimate details of of some of the things that you challenges you faced. Yeah. And and the realization you had.
Smoke:And I I'm of the belief that we're we're all spiritual beings on a mission here to remember. Mhmm. To remember our divinity. To remember our connection to the river.
Chris:Oh, that's great.
Smoke:Yeah. So it's like so it's inside all of us. Sure. It's already there. The fact is it's not even finding the river.
Smoke:The river runs through us. It's recognizing it. And how did how did you I know you I know your story pretty well and and but maybe give us give us a little of the flavor of, you know, the Chris that was troubled, the Chris that was experiencing life in one way with one lens, and what what made a pivot for you and how you got there, if you if you don't mind sharing.
Chris:Yeah. So, you know, I I grew up here in Arizona. I my faith journey started at a very young age. I grew up in the church, I would say.
Smoke:Multiple churches. Multiple churches. Yeah. I was reading the grandma, the baptist, you have that Yeah. Outbreaks.
Smoke:Have a mix of all kinds of cross sections. Yeah. So religion,
Chris:to me, is a fine thing to take it in moderation, to use the quote from trading places. So, but my family is sort of a mixed religious family in many respects. So my mother is both Armenian and Italian, and my father was all sorts of different nationalities, but his father was Evangelical and his mother was Southern Baptist. And so, when I was born, I was actually baptized in the Armenian Anglican Church in Fresno, Arizona. My grandfather escaped the Armenian genocide.
Chris:He was actually born in Marseille, France. And shortly, when that was taking place.
Smoke:And there was something like a million Armenians A million. Occurred by the Ottoman Turks at the time. A million Armenians.
Chris:The Ottoman Turks, not to get political, have still not recognized. Yeah. They refused to recognize the fact that they slaughtered a million Armenians.
Smoke:Well, the river runs through us all. Yes. So whether in this earthly realm, a physical realm that we see, you know, justice isn't about necessarily what this society does or whether someone recognizes it or not. It doesn't matter. The river runs through it all.
Smoke:It all of the beings that were part of that, divinity knows what happened and Yeah. If they face their
Chris:they face their baker. But there's there's a heaviness that runs through the Armenian community because of that. A spiritual, almost demonic heaviness because of that. Yeah.
Smoke:And and I don't wanna get off your story, but I think it's interesting because, you know, there are people, you know, as one who experienced trauma as a child and and and transcended it and got through it through forgiveness. And forgiveness is not for the the forgiven. It's for the forgiver. Yes. You know, the freedom I gained and the joy I have today is because I forgave everyone including myself.
Smoke:I think some of these communities, the Armenians is a good example, that hold this generational grudge. Yeah. I think the, you know, aspects of the Jewish community have this. And and there's you can go across all kinds of cultures. Absolutely.
Smoke:These this group is wrong to right. This group, you know, African Americans who, you know, ancestors were enslavery. You've got all these different groups who have these generational grudges and the forgiving is for them. Yeah. And, you know, and holding a grudge is is a it's a dark energy on the person who's holding the grudge.
Smoke:Yeah. Regardless of what happened.
Chris:Oh, completely. No, I agree with you. And but I say all that because I there was a heaviness in that family. Mhmm. And I recognize it almost like an anger a very young age.
Chris:Conversely, my father's mother, Pat, Southern Baptist woman, godly, she and her sisters were all just fully into the Word, fully following Jesus before that was even a term. They were Jesus followers. So, I had to learn about organized religion the one hand, because I was raised Episcopalian, permanent Episcopalian, but I got to learn about Jesus and who he was through my grandmother. And that is, I've carried that throughout my life in
Smoke:a very strong way. So you had that that history. You had that tradition that was part of you. Your dad was a very upstanding individual.
Chris:My dad was
Smoke:yeah. Had a had a good moral sense of right and wrong. He I think you said, never said no to anyone. Yeah. Well, so my father was raised here.
Smoke:He was born in Boise, Idaho, raised here
Chris:in Phoenix, went to West High, grew up here, went to University of Washington. Got an engineering degree, got his PhD at Berkeley, was doing all these great things for the government and then my grandfather asked him to come back into the family business, which was a company called All American Distributing here in AZ. It's one of the largest Seagram's distributors back then, which you know really well.
Smoke:I do.
Chris:Back in the day. And the reason that my grandfather asked him to come back is that Anheuser Busch was working on a brand new equity agreement for their wholesalers. And they wanted some succession within the business. And my dad came back to Phoenix with a new wife in 1968. I was born in 'sixty nine.
Chris:And in 1974, we packed it up and moved to Tucson. Cause those agreements were finalized at that time and we had to separate the Anheuser Busch side, because my grandfather got those rights in 1955, along with Jim Hensley here in Phoenix. And, so Ann O'Sabrush asked them to separate it and so we had to headquarter our business, our territory really was around Phoenix even at that time and we had to move to Tucson. And we kind of moved kicking and screaming. And so I was raised in Tucson but my father really poured into the community.
Chris:He and several other business leaders really made a lot of great, wonderful things happen for the Tucson community. And whether it's the University of Arizona propping up sports franchises there or just community involvement on every single level. Yeah, he was a gentleman who could not say no, and he gave very, very much back to the community. And I learned my understanding of charity, my understanding of possessions, my understanding of all that really came from my father. He really taught me that it's all a gift.
Chris:Our responsibility is to be good stewards of that gift and we'll be judged by how good a steward we are. One of my best friends thought he would challenge my father, my friend John Desser, who will see this. But we were in Washington, D. C. One time, meeting at the old Mayflower bar, you remember that old wood Yeah, they gutted it and got rid of it.
Chris:Bastard. It was a beautiful bar. But he thought he would, you know, be cute with my dad and he was at the of his journey exploring his faith. He said, you know, Mr. Clements, why do you think Jesus said it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than from the camel to go through the eye of a needle.
Chris:My dad not blinking an eye, he said, Because it is. And that was his philosophy about, you know, the things that he was given. It was a gift. And stewardship, humility, charity was really his legacy. Yeah.
Chris:That's beautiful. Well, so he you had this incredibly wise and upstanding dad.
Smoke:You grew up in a lot of structure, a lot of, you know, religion around you. Yeah. And then tragedy struck. Your dad died young. Yeah.
Smoke:So, I had
Chris:an interesting journey after graduating from USC. I went to Washington DC, worked out there for a little over a year. And then, decided to travel to Europe with some friends of mine. Long story short, I was rock climbing in Rio Maggiore, Italy. The fell, 30 feet, shattered my wrist, busted up my face, and I got, you know, kinda sent home.
Chris:Boarded a flight home and had major surgery on my wrist, had external fixation on my wrist. And during that time, in my rehabilitation, my father said, you know, I would like to retire in five to six years. I'd like to bring you into the business, reteach you the business because I'd grown up in it. Right. You know, sweeping floors, fixing neons, building displays.
Chris:Like what
Smoke:kids did in our Yeah, yeah, it
Chris:was awesome because I still walk into a store these days and feel like that's all wrong. It's horrible. It's always in you. He asked me to come into the business and I really wanted to go back to Washington DC but I kinda lost my mojo because the job search in Washington DC which I had gone through roughly two years earlier, it's grueling. I mean, it's grueling today but it was grueling back then and I was really injured, was really busted up and didn't even know it then, know it now, I had a traumatic brain injury and I was knocked out for like fifteen minutes.
Smoke:Yeah. It sounds like you were fortunate, falling that far in the rocks to come out with the injuries you had.
Chris:Yeah. So, I didn't realize how bad off I was until much much later. And and so my dad asked me to come in back into the business. I kinda reluctantly came back and Mhmm. You know, if you ever tried to haul a stack of beer into a Walgreens in with a busted wrist, it didn't work out too I dumped a lot of stacks of beer.
Chris:Yeah. And I got just bagged on by our employees, rightfully so, for it. But it was a year of traveling to all of our branches. We had six branches at that time around the state. Mhmm.
Chris:And it was a really cool year from that perspective. I got to really know the state of Arizona from a very intimate standpoint. I know every nook and cranny of the state.
Smoke:I've traveled every back road. Well, if they a lot of beer to lot of weird they drink beer, you've found it. You can't do it.
Chris:Delivered a lot of beer to a lot of different places. So, but then, I was working out in our Buckeye branch, so I got a phone call and my father was in the hospital. They found a tumor on his brain. But then, in my and they were gonna do surgery to remove the tumor. And he had lost he was driving to work and he lost the ability to see, and they thought it was something else, turned out to be this mass on the back of his brain.
Chris:Then they did a full scan and they found spots on his lungs, liver. And that was like 12/18/1994, and he passed away on 02/23/1995. And how old were you? I was 25 years old. Okay?
Chris:And rather than I don't recommend this for anyone. Rather than just taking some time and kind of assessing where I was as a person, as a son, as a brother, as everything, we went to work. There was no time. Yeah. And we decided we wanted to keep the business.
Chris:There was a lot of overtures for us to sell the business now that he was gone. Sure. Anheuser Busch has a very extensive approval process for successor managers and equity agreement managers and I was way far off from that ever happening. So, it was a really difficult time and unfortunately I became very jaded, angry at my dad and at my heavenly father for taking them from me. My dad and I had a really nice year of reconnecting when I was working.
Chris:Yeah. I would come home from the branches every Saturday, we'd meet for Mexican food at this little dive place called El Minuto down in Tucson. We'd talk about the week and he'd share with me the stuff he was dealing with. It was just a really sweet time. And I felt like it really was stolen from me.
Smoke:And so I kinda So I kinda shut down in many ways. Blame him and blame God. Oh, yeah. And so, you know, I understand that very personally. I think that a lot of us go through tough times and when we don't have answers and we don't understand what's happening, we blame everybody and externally.
Smoke:And, you know, and God for you know, gets to get the blame for a lot of things. Yeah. Because people don't know understand. They don't understand what's happening. So what did that how did that manifest?
Smoke:So, know, fast forward
Chris:to Well, it manifested in me, first of all, thinking I could do it better than my dad. Yeah. In the business. So, went in, rather than leading from a place of humility and grace
Smoke:Which is how he operated.
Chris:I led from a place of, you know, strength, you know, very
Smoke:Trying to prove yourself, yeah. Right? You had a larger than life dad who was very successful and you probably, you know, at that stage, didn't hadn't done much, right, in in the And so, you felt compelled to, like, show up and be the man. Yeah. And and he had an older
Chris:management team that really, I found out, did not like each other. He kinda kept it all together. Mhmm. Everybody went to him for everything. And then when they really had to work together, they really didn't wanna do that.
Chris:Yeah. And you had actually two different factions within that management team that was trying to work with Anheuser Busch to move us out. So it was all these kind of dark dynamics that were happening to you behind the scenes that revealed themselves to me later. Mhmm. But then, had my own darkness where I felt like I needed to prove myself, like you said.
Chris:And then, I had these injuries and I had a traumatic brain injury and you know what they tell you not to do when you have a traumatic brain injury? Injured again? Drink. Oh, drink. Yeah.
Chris:Both those things. Yeah. Drinking when you have a traumatic brain injury is like pouring gasoline on a forest fire. And it just doesn't work. But I'm in the beer business.
Chris:And I'm just, you know, drinking and I got married very quickly after he passed away. You know, proposed to my then wife, like, right when he was sick. And so that was happening and then, you know, my first my daughter was born and during this really tumultuous time trying to prove myself and everything else, I just wasn't well. And I wasn't well for quite some time. Went through a divorce.
Chris:And then I met my current wife, Sasha.
Smoke:Yeah. Who So she helped you reflect on who you were and what was going what was going right and what was going wrong. Yeah. Right? So I I don't believe anything is accidental in this world.
Smoke:I you you guys met for a reason. She came to you for a reason. You guys got together for a reason. And then at some point, I know I know the story. So I'm just just to kinda get to the point of this, which is, you know, at some point, you know, she she had enough of the behavior and said Yeah.
Smoke:You need to make a choice. Yeah. So I was at a I was
Chris:at an industry event down in Key West, and for whatever reason, we both kinda went on a little bit of a bender, but then I decided to go out later and found myself, like, three in the morning, fairly inebriated and wandering the streets of
Smoke:Key West. Right. I've been there. Yeah. Exactly doing the same thing.
Smoke:What was really That's no good. You can paint your own picture.
Chris:We don't need to go into details. Yeah. What was really interesting was the next day. There was no anger in her voice. There was no spitefulness.
Chris:She just said, Listen, whether we stay married or not is really irrelevant at this point. But the simple fact is you have a problem. And then she said something to me that was really gut wrenching. She said, You know, your son is scared of you. Because you come home, you've been out all day, and I know you're at the office and you're having to go to these events, you're having to do this and this and this, but you're not well.
Chris:And he wants we want you to be well. And so whatever it is that you're holding onto, whatever it is that you're struggling with, we want you
Smoke:to get well. What a kind way to have that said to you. Yeah. You know, there's a lot
Chris:of different ways that message could be delivered. Yeah, just remember it being very forthright, kind, which normally it'd be different. And so, what I immediately did was I called my best friend again, John Desser, and he had had some experience working with a guy named David Appleby, Liberty University. Because I really felt that what I was experiencing and what I was struggling spiritual. There was some physicality about it, maybe some emotional stuff, but it was spiritual.
Chris:It was deeply spiritual. So I called him and I said, Hey, listen, I'd like you to connect me with David, Doctor. Applebee. I think I'd like to have a prayer session with him because I think there's some things inside of me that I've been carrying on for decades. I need to get a handle on it.
Chris:So literally, a month later, I'm in Charlottesville, Virginia, And with Doctor Appleby, with John, and like five or six other people. Pastors, seers, this whole thing. And we go into a six, seven, eight hour prayer session. And, but I won't go into it completely, but some things were revealed to me about my past, about who I was and how I was raised, and things that I hadn't even thought about for a long time that they brought forth.
Smoke:Yeah.
Chris:And I'll share two things. One was afterwards, we're driving back to Washington and John turns to me, we're at a seven Eleven of all things. I don't know why I remember this, but he turns to me and goes, You know who's really proud of you right now? Grandma Pat. That's pretty awesome.
Chris:I get teary eyed because she introduced me to Jesus, and she would want me to know him better. Yeah. And since that time, I've made that my purpose. To know him and make him known. Yeah.
Chris:And that session,
Smoke:in that session Yeah. You came you came to Jesus.
Chris:That session, I I saw the living Lord. Yeah. I saw him. Yeah. Fully.
Chris:And the next morning, I woke up and my eyes were like milky. And I was wiping stuff out of my eyes. Was the strangest thing. And what I realized is that it was it was I was being cleansed. Yeah.
Chris:And I woke up and I had different eyes. Yeah. I had a different spirit. I had different eyes.
Smoke:You, there were some dark energies, dark spirits, demons surrounding you. The this prayer session helped bring the light. Yeah. And then, really, it was you who removed them. Yeah.
Smoke:I believe. I believe in that it end up it's we're all sovereign beings and we have the ability to do this, but sometimes it takes a group to help you get to that point. But at the end of the day, no one removed it from you. You did it. Yeah.
Smoke:You know, by by accepting Christ by You have to ask and you have to ask for help.
Chris:You have to proclaim. Yeah. You have to proclaim your dominion. You have to proclaim your belief. Mhmm.
Chris:And and through the, you know, through the power of the Holy Spirit and blood of Jesus Christ, which is how I began almost every prayer. Yeah. That is that was a new tool given to me Mhmm. That I had I had no concept of before. Yeah.
Chris:And and but here's the key. You have to keep at it.
Smoke:Yeah. Yeah. Because Or they come back.
Chris:Because the bible said they come back, it's not seven, but seven times 70. Yeah.
Smoke:And and look, they're attracted to the light. So that they're looking for the misstep. They're looking for the person who's walking the path to let their guard down. Yeah. And how do we let our how do we let our guard down?
Smoke:We we we go unconscious. We aren't paying attention. We're not we're not present. That can be done through alcohol and drugs. It could be done through just anger or through emotions.
Smoke:So just not being present, let your guard down. Mhmm. And those are all ways that evil can creep in.
Chris:Yes. Very much so. And and that's not to say it hasn't since then. I've struggled with some some anger and some just some frustration. Yeah.
Chris:But,
Smoke:but, know, have that different since then.
Chris:Yeah. I have better understanding, and as long as I'm keeping myself looking vertically, I'm in a much better place. And this idea of proclaiming is something that I've recently rediscovered. Yeah. That every day, I mean, it's like putting on the armor of God.
Chris:I mean, every day you need to proclaim.
Smoke:For sure. And I I literally you know, in a in a slightly less religious context Sure. I proclaim my sovereignty as a sovereign sovereign being of God. Yeah. But that's not religious.
Smoke:It's just a sovereign being. We all are. Yeah. I proclaim it every day. I'm subject to what I hold in mind.
Smoke:What I hold in mind is my sovereign beingness, one with God. Mhmm. And then I go through my litany of things of, you know, like, what I manifest. I just go through my list of what I'm grateful for, what how I think about the world and and I end with and so it is. And I get electric shocks through my back and all up my spine when I do that.
Smoke:Yeah.
Chris:Every day. That's the holy spirit. Yeah. Just tapping you on the shoulders.
Smoke:I love and in this journey for me has been fast getting air.
Chris:So you get electric. I get air. Yeah. It's like, all of a sudden, there's just
Smoke:all this Yeah. All this air that that that comes through me and then it's like, it's it's wild. That's really cool. What I love is comparing across and and hearing people's experiences. Yours are in the context of Jesus and and this exorcism, if you will.
Smoke:I don't know. Deliverance. Deliverance.
Chris:Deliverance. Call it deliverance. Exorcism is a whole different deal. It's it's it's when you are it's a it's
Smoke:more oppression Yeah. Than than just than strongholds. Okay. Alright. So, not knowing the the the nuances of it.
Smoke:But Deliverance and I watched the Netflix thing on Deliverance where I don't know if you've seen that movie. It's a documentary about these guys helping lots of people remove entities from themselves and doing it in groups, in large group.
Chris:Oh, yeah.
Smoke:It's interesting. What what for me, it's what's interesting because I experienced the same thing, but in a context of plant medicine with a non religious but very spiritual leader who helped me remove negative entities from myself. And and and in end, it was me doing it and finding divinity and asking for help. And I I asked for god's help, and it was through that grace that I was able to do it. But, you know, there's doing it in a plant medicine ceremony in Canada with a spiritual leader and, you know, no sign of Jesus anywhere.
Smoke:At least by at least, you know, you know, crosses or anything. And then you're doing it there at with liberty folks in very, you know, very religious context, but they're doing you're doing the same thing. Yeah. We're we're you're you're taking back your sovereignty. You're rejecting the the darkness.
Smoke:The enemy. And and accepting your responsibility in that, which is, you know, it's not just That's a key point. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, no one does it for us. No.
Smoke:And and it's not like, keep the demons away from me. No. Love the demons. What I come I love them. If they had love, they would they'd run.
Smoke:You know, I I I experienced this. If you if you That's a that's a interesting perspective. Well, literally, it's like, look, fear is an uninvited guest. Yeah. And when you invite fear, fear can only be uninvited.
Smoke:It it that it's not comfortable being an invited guest, so it goes away. Yeah. So these these entities, these evil energies, whatever they are, they're around. They they exist. They're part of the realm.
Smoke:And once we understand and we are sovereign beings, we are divine, they have no power of us. Mhmm. And so, I don't fight evil. I give it love. And you know what it does?
Smoke:It's like a little it's like a little critter that never got loved and it it just it runs away. It goes, oh, fuck. It's like this horrible demon that you think is there is actually this little weak unloved entity. Yeah. That That's a great That turned to darkness and is is there, boo, scaring you.
Smoke:Boo. And once you accept that, you know, you accept that you're survive you're you're independent sovereignty, that will and it is, you know, you like, oh, what happened to that guy? Yeah. You something happened to that one and you turned the wrong way.
Chris:That is a great analogy. I'm gonna have to manifest that a little bit and just think about those things. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Chris:Because that's it's just very true. And
Smoke:and And it's the opposite of what you feel. Right? So so my experience was I've got a fight. I had nightmares. I had terrors.
Smoke:It you know, for years and years and years, I had all these these battles and, you know, just horrific nightmares. And once I did this pivot, they went away. They they they can't if you invite fear, it's an uninvited guest and it can't it can't stay.
Chris:It just goes. Yeah. No. It's very true. And and, unfortunately, more people don't look at the world that way.
Chris:They look at it as as truly just physical and emotional and and whatever. And Well,
Smoke:as above, so below. Right? And everything physical. Well, and
Chris:I think I said it in the questionnaire you sent, which was fantastic, by the way. And, you know, you made you had the bonus questions. Yeah. That said evil is. And you go, evil is real.
Chris:Yeah. And it's really interesting that people would like to talk about the spirit. They talk about God, they talk about Jesus, talk about whatever, you know, whatever they're pursuing on their spiritual life. But they never wanna talk about the evil one. Yeah.
Chris:They never wanna talk about what the darkness. Yeah. It's too much.
Smoke:Well, and that's I'm a big believer that where you put your energy is what manifests. So, I spend 99% of my time on the positive. On, you know, in in our homeless conversation Yeah. That we were able to have on your show, which is I really appreciated and got some nice exposure for Yeah. Piggy moves.
Smoke:We don't talk about the we don't focus on the homeless industrial complex. We don't focus on the homeless people and the all the bad decisions they made to get to where they were. Without don't we we focus on how we get them, how do we do triage, how do we get them off the street, how do we get them give them a chance to make a decision as a sovereign being to to take a different path. Yeah. And it's all positive.
Smoke:That being said, we can't not recognize either. And so while we don't wanna spend our days talking about it all the time, I think it's a topic that people are afraid of that we don't talk about. And what is it? Like, how do we define it? And for me, you know, it's the difference so the so the same action done by two different people or entities or groups could could be seen as evil or not evil.
Smoke:And what I mean by that? If you know it's bad and you do it anyway, if you recognize that it harms another and you do it anyway, that's evil.
Chris:Oh, yeah.
Smoke:That's the definition of evil. Yeah. So, there are people who do things that look like it might be it would be evil through one lens, but really it's ignorance. It's just they don't understand the repercussions. They don't understand what it's doing to someone else.
Smoke:Yes. They really legit legitimately don't understand. And then there's people who absolutely know that what they're doing will harm someone. But they don't give up. Well I've
Chris:been there. Yeah. Yeah. Been there in my arrogance in those early years.
Smoke:Well, I I have too. I from time to time.
Chris:My ignorance, my arrogance, my my complete fallenness. Yeah. So it's
Smoke:I think it's really interesting and and I think it's we don't it's not talked about enough. Again, I don't wanna manifest it. I don't wanna I don't wanna dwell on it. But it's I talk a lot about consciousness and raising consciousness. I think it's the most important thing we can do in in the world.
Smoke:It it because at at a certain level of consciousness, you would never harm anyone. Mhmm. Because you recognize we're all one. You recognize that you're harming yourself. That we're it you're God and I'm God.
Smoke:And if I if I harm you, I'm harming me. It's it's it's we're harming each other. Or if I love you and I'm loving me. Yes. It it's so easy once you get to a certain level.
Smoke:We have a lot of people, a lot of humanity that is not at a high enough conscious level. But consciousness is what we talk about. But do we talk about having a conscious conscious? Easy for me to say. What is that?
Smoke:That's that little voice in your head that says, don't do that. Yeah. You know, that's not a good idea. What is that? That's real.
Chris:Yeah. I mean, that's that's a spiritual question. And, are you willing to to listen? Yeah. That's the thing.
Smoke:I mean, eyes to
Chris:see ears to hear. Like, part of that is hearing what's going on inside of you and what's what what what your conscious what what your spirit is is telling you. Yeah. And people shut that part off of themselves. Yeah.
Chris:Way too much to pursue whatever the world has, they think the world has for them.
Smoke:Mean, you see We all have a guardian angel or more than one.
Chris:Oh, I've got great ones. Yeah. Hope to meet, I can't wait to meet them someday because they've been
Smoke:Well, they're and they're always there kind of that's that whispering that they're steering us in the right direction, and we're either listening or ignoring them. Yeah. And and it's it's funny that it exists. And if you can quiet your mind, calm your ego, get yourself out of your own head, and go with your heart, your heart is where that is. Like, your guardian angel communicates to you through your heart.
Smoke:It doesn't some people, I guess, hear voices and I've I've no doubt about that. But generally speaking, it's communicating to you with like, you know what's right.
Chris:Oh, I I've been in some quiet moments where I believe God has spoken very clearly to And, I mean, I had a yeah. I've had those those incredible moments where where you just, you hear it clearly, and you act on it. Yeah. Almost immediately. Yeah.
Chris:And because you're in a different state of consciousness where you can absolutely hear those voices.
Smoke:So, you and I are both partners at SCS Capital. Yeah. Which means, we are former entrepreneurs, business leaders who help current Shout out to Rob. Shout out to Rob. Lapau is our friend and founder.
Smoke:Seller companies, you know, we do M and A around the world. I'm closing a transaction in Asia, hopefully next week, I think. You know, we're we're doing lots of interesting deals. Let's talk for a second about how we bring this lens of consciousness, of divinity, of the river that runs through us all to our daily lives. And, you know, I think there's there's a cross section of people who are in the material world, who are in positions of leadership, who are lots of our friends, IPO and what the whole network of people, who are, as a as a rule, wanna do the right thing, trying to do the right thing, are doing the right thing in many cases.
Smoke:And but how do they how do you reconcile this spirituality with how yeah. Oh, but I have a job and I have to run this company. I have to lead. I have to do my thing. How do you what how do
Chris:you think about that? Well, I mean, even even when we were running the our our company, we we tried to bring some sort of sense of I wouldn't call it religion, but just spirituality into it. And I think you need to be bold. I don't think you need to be afraid of professing when you see an opportunity. Yeah.
Chris:And we had company foundation. We called it the Wings Like Eagles Foundation, which is directly from Isaiah 40. Rise up, rise up with wings like eagles, walk and not grow weary. Rather not grow weary, walk and not grow faint.
Smoke:Yeah. And also happens to work well with the, you know, with eagle. Oh, yeah. Exactly. It was a good fit.
Smoke:Yeah.
Chris:It was a great fit in terms of, you know, symmetry and Yeah. And synergy. But we didn't shy away from that. And we didn't shy away from that in terms we would give money to. There are certain charities that we're like, no.
Chris:You don't really fit into what we're trying to accomplish. And so, I think for leaders and people that we're dealing with as well, who are selling their companies, there's also a book that I love and something that I've kind of professed in the business world. It's built by a guy by the name of Bob Buford. It's called Halftime. And this idea that your second half of your life, the second half of your life can be more prosperous, more prophetic, more productive than the first part.
Chris:And what we find when a lot of these people are selling their companies, they're going through this halftime question. Yeah. Like, Okay, this has been my identity for so long. And I went through this. This has been my identity for so long.
Chris:I'm the CEO, I'm like the rich young ruler, people do whatever I say. And now, what am I gonna be putting my efforts into? I think what we need to do a better job is pointing them on that journey, that happy Yeah,
Smoke:I think it's an interesting thing, you know, we, a lot of times, we define ourselves by the role we're playing. The role we're playing in our community or with our family or in our in our job, our career, business, and that's not really it. Yeah. It's how we think about things. Mhmm.
Smoke:You know, I I always love this. You know, we we do live in the real world, and there's nothing wrong with being successful in this in this realm at all. There's nothing wrong. But we need to wear our success and our this role that we play like a loose costume. Yeah.
Smoke:Right? It it it's don't be don't you know, going to the Buddha, which I love, is, you know, don't be attached. Yeah. You know, it's don't be attached to the things. Don't be attached to the status.
Smoke:Don't be attached to the any of that. And just go with the flow and and be the witness and bring love to everything. And if we do that, you know, there's abundance for all. There's plenty there's plenty to go around. There's lots of wealth to be created and give out and help others.
Smoke:And, you know, we we can live a life that matches that of what, you know, the path of Jesus. Yeah. In today's world without you know, with no compromise.
Chris:Yeah. You know, I mean, you can even go back to the the old testament with with this sort of notion of idolatry. You know, thou shall not have any other gods before me. Well, he didn't what God was talking about was not just, you know, other godly entities, but things that take you away from being in God's presence. What are your idols?
Chris:And that was I mean, go back to my dad. That was something he was very understanding of. Like, did not want to be idolizing anything. Yeah. And so, what I see a lot in the business community is this idolatry of What they define as success.
Chris:Yeah. And what we talk about at SCS Capital, and certainly within the Halftime Institute, I've been involved in for a long time, is success is significance. But really, there's another s there, and that's surrender. Mhmm. And it takes time in your journey to really wanna surrender.
Chris:And to understand what that means. And it's gonna mean giving up things that you might not be ready to give up. Yeah. I didn't think I was ready to give up being a CEO and essentially being the rich young ruler Mhmm. Walking in, everything was done for me.
Chris:And now, I think I have a higher calling. I have a higher purpose. Yeah. You know, both in the CEOs that I work with, but also within my community. And I'm blessed that I'm able, you know, been able to have a platform in that regard.
Smoke:The reason you can help others is because you fixed yourself.
Chris:God fixed me.
Smoke:K. Fair. Yeah.
Chris:But you I mean, I
Smoke:know but you there's a spiritual will that you made a choice. Yeah. You can turn this way or that. Oh, that's We free will in this world because you can choose the dark. You can choose the light.
Smoke:Free will is all about,
Chris:do you accept God Yeah. And wanna pursue him? Or do you wanna reject him? And God will give you up.
Smoke:Well, I I would I would disagree with that.
Chris:Well, no. It's not in
Smoke:the scripture. Well, I would here here if
Chris:you meaning meaning, if you decide to pursue a life of sin Yes. Of severe sin, He will let you do that.
Smoke:Right. Because we have Doesn't mean that he's not there. Yeah. Exactly. And and but God's love exists for everyone.
Smoke:You can get back in the river. Absolutely. Can get back in the river. I'm not
Chris:saying that. But there are times where Well,
Smoke:the the eastern traditions, you know, have karma and you're you're generating negative karma or positive karma and you've got this whole thing. And Christianity has karma too.
Chris:They just don't call it that.
Smoke:They call it purgatory. They call it heaven. Then you you get to different places based on your actions. Your right action or not right action. It's the it's the same thing without talking of
Chris:with using different terms. Well, that's that's faith based on works. And really Jesus, what he said is that, you know, my grace is sufficient for everyone.
Smoke:You
Chris:know, religion has to, the Catholic religion talks about faith based works. Jesus doesn't talk about that. What Jesus says is that, my grace is sufficient for you. Come to me. Follow me.
Smoke:And one thing I've been
Chris:really fixated on this Easter season, for whatever reason, I don't know why. And I probably will get a little emotional about it. And we're we're Jesus, this is grace. You don't you don't say a prayer and then all of a sudden Jesus comes into your life. You don't Jesus can come in at any time.
Chris:Sure. And you can find him and God and the holy spirit anytime. I mean, you talk about some people find it at their death. Well, think about the other two robbers who were crucified. Right.
Chris:Which is
Smoke:and one of them One found the river on the cross next to him. One of
Chris:them is mocking Jesus. Found the river
Smoke:after after He might have
Chris:found you know, he find might have found a different river. Yeah. He's one is mine.
Smoke:Well, there's only one river, but but but you don't wanna be at the bottom of the river under a rock Yeah. For a couple generations. Yeah. Which is so we're gonna we're gonna repeat these lessons. We're gonna Yeah.
Smoke:And but I I think it's a great but, you know But the man
Chris:but just let me finish. Yeah. The one robber is mocking Jesus. And the other one says to him, what are you doing? This man has done nothing wrong.
Chris:Yeah. We deserve our faith. Right. He just doesn't deserve this. And he says, Jesus, remember me when you come to your kingdom.
Chris:He proclaims that moment. Jesus, today you'll be with me in paradise. And I was did I send you that video? I think I did. I was listening to Alistair Bag of of, you know, this church and he's a Scottish preacher.
Chris:And he's spoken to a bunch of different YPO groups and everything. Yeah. And he says, I wanna meet that guy. Like, he didn't have all these religious things around him. He just said, remember me.
Smoke:Yeah.
Chris:And I just I get teary eyed when I
Smoke:think about it, like,
Chris:that should be our prayer every day. Yeah. Like, Jesus, remember me when I come into your kingdom.
Smoke:Yeah. No. That's beautiful. I I agree. The only thing and maybe it's me it's maybe it's terminology, maybe it's my understanding.
Smoke:And so I'm just No. This is more curious. Is because I think my understanding of the teachings of Jesus and that, you know, in the scripture that I've, you know, I'm certainly no expert, but I've, you know, spent time is, you know, treat everyone like your brother. Treat everyone the way you wanna be treated. Sure.
Smoke:Bring love to every situation. Yeah. So is that not good works? Or, I mean, or we might define is it just define are we thinking about Yeah. Different things or Yeah.
Chris:Works is is this idea that I've gotta get up and I've gotta prove myself to the Lord every day and I've gotta do all these I gotta check all these boxes. I gotta check the boxes to get to heaven. And what Jesus is saying, you don't need to check the boxes.
Smoke:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, I have a different understanding.
Smoke:Just You don't need to check the boxes.
Chris:I've already checked the boxes
Smoke:for you. I just got shocks. So, I'm riffing on you. Yeah. Once you accept god in your heart, good works happen automatically.
Smoke:Yeah. They they just happen because it's the thing. It's not But you don't gain
Chris:your salvation.
Smoke:No. No. You're not doing good works to get salvation. You accept salvation and the good works
Chris:pop out. Yeah.
Smoke:It's it's the reverse. That's grace. Okay. Alright. That's grace.
Smoke:So I no. I I understand what you said. Because because, again, the second robber, he didn't
Chris:do anything. Yeah. He got it then. Mhmm. That's the beauty of it.
Chris:Yes. He he
Smoke:But but I think it it's safe to say that it's not recommended to wait to the very end. No. No. It's definitely not. Because you might not have that that window.
Smoke:You might just miss it. It's You know,
Chris:but I've seen people I've seen people prophesize to people on their deathbeds pleading with them. Yeah. And I've, you know, you can see videos of people accepting. And then something miraculous
Smoke:happens. So,
Chris:it's, you know, it's, again, have this idea that your leadership and your journey is defined by basically three things. Your faith, which leads to greater freedom and liberty within the realm of God.
Smoke:And then, it's an economic term,
Chris:but the free enterprise that you have to build, to explore and to be entrepreneurial. And that's where the work's coming. It's like, now what am I going to do? Yeah. Now got a vertical relationship.
Chris:It's given me freedom because I'm not oppressed by the enemy. I know how to, like you said, you know, pour coals on the enemy's head and watch
Smoke:him flutter away. Yeah. Cold warp. Poor loving loving spider on their fiery head. They like, woah.
Smoke:That's that's that's too much love. Love what I love.
Chris:And then what do I want to build? What do I want what do I want to achieve in with with in his name?
Smoke:Yeah. Well, it's it's who we become, it's who we are that matters. And in becoming, some people are gonna go do lots of good works or lots of good lots of, you know, charity or they're gonna give away things. Some people are gonna be very just live their life and and love the people that they're around. And that's okay too.
Smoke:It's about being that love in your personhood. Yeah. Like, it's embodying it. It's not talking about it. It's not talking about religion.
Smoke:Yeah. It's not talking about scripture. It's being loved. That's really what it boils down to.
Chris:Yeah. I would I would agree with that except for the scripture part. Okay. I think I think, for me, scripture is is an anchor. Mhmm.
Chris:And And scripture still informs my faith. So I would still, for me at least, I would still profess scripture as
Smoke:well. Yeah, I have no judgment about that. My own view is that there's great value in the scripture and in spiritual writings, tremendous value. But it's not not all created equal. And that humans voted on, like, the council of Nicaea, they they they voted on what went into the bible and, you know, and so there was politics involved.
Smoke:And your you as as well as anyone knows what politics looks like. So I I just think that it's yes. And the essence of it is be love or or
Chris:not.
Smoke:It's a simple it's really simple. Yeah. There's there's a lot of truth
Chris:to that.
Smoke:Yeah. Because if you if you embody love, there's nothing in scripture that's gonna disagree with you. Because you're gonna be aligned with with spirit.
Chris:Yes. I I agree with that. Yeah. And and there there's there's there's an interesting book that that that reflects that in many ways. It's called Speaking of Jesus.
Chris:It's by a friend of mine named Carl Magares. Carl, I don't know if you've ever met Carl. Carl spent thirteen years in Beirut ministering to Muslims. And Muslims love Jesus but they have a hard time accepting the resurrection and these type of things. And, Carl was in Colorado and he decided to do an experiment.
Chris:And he stood on the corner of the University of Colorado, like, right there in Boulder. And he asked a bunch of people on the corner, you know, what do you think about Christianity? People just got irate about Christianity and all of its ills and everything else. Went back to the same corner, talked to the same people. We think about Jesus.
Chris:Totally different answers. Yeah. Totally different understanding. Men have created religion to confine other men.
Smoke:Yeah. Jesus was not about religion. Right. So, the essence Jesus' teachings of what what what became Christianity Yeah. Is is the true teachings.
Smoke:And it's why I love the mystics, you know. I I Yeah. I there's some great things there too. It's it's because the direct connection to God, we don't need another human, a pope or a minister or anyone else. Oh, no.
Smoke:There's a direct connection in our heart to divinity. Absolutely. And that's the only connection, actually. There's no third party. No.
Smoke:Mean, the I mean,
Chris:Pope Francis passed away this week. God bless him. You know, my family, I remember, and I covered this on our recent podcast, I remember being, like, eight or nine years old, when Pope John Paul was selected. Yeah. It was such a big thing and I couldn't understand it.
Chris:And yet Pope John Paul was everyone was still living in his shadow. Yeah. Because of how consequential he was as a man of faith in God. Mhmm. Helping to change the world.
Smoke:Yeah. Yeah.
Chris:I think there's, you can glean truths from everywhere. Mhmm. But ultimately, you're absolutely right. Your relationship with God. It's your relationship with God.
Chris:I mean, I'll see things that even people in my own family are doing. I'm like, well, that's a it's between them
Smoke:and God. Right. And then
Chris:I said it was gonna gonna work.
Smoke:And I that informs my my the way I try to be at all times, which is I try say try it. I am without judgment. Yeah. Because it's not for me to judge. No.
Smoke:Now, do I have preferences? Is there, you know, can I see what I believe to be evil versus not? You know, sure. I've I've recognized things like that's not right. You know, child pornography, abusing children.
Smoke:Yes. So those things are like black and white to me, like clearly wrong. And yet, I have to remove myself from judgment because usually the people perpetrating these things had this perpetrated to them. And they're simply animalistically repeating things and and acting out. And doesn't mean that you allow it, but it yeah.
Smoke:You can fix
Chris:this on that or overwhelm it.
Smoke:And it yeah. If you can prevent it, obviously you do. But the judgment, you know, God is present inside all of us. So there's not a single thing we think, do, or, you know, feel that isn't recorded and is known. Oh, yeah.
Smoke:So we don't have to run around judging everyone because it's it's already built into the system. It's Yeah. In the air. It's everywhere. Yeah.
Smoke:That's a good thing. No.
Chris:That's that's That's a good thing.
Smoke:That's the release. That's the surrender. It's like, you surrender because it is divinity. Yeah.
Chris:It's the river. And it's the hardest thing to do as a believer. Surrender. Because you have to give up what you've already talked about, your ego, your sense of self here. Yeah.
Chris:And you have to accept the
Smoke:fact that you're not in control. That control is an illusion. Right. And in judgment, we don't see, we don't see. So when you drop the judgment, things are revealed to us.
Chris:Yeah, and I know that's really important, the work that you're doing with Dignity Moves.
Smoke:Sure.
Chris:It has to be. Even though you probably see some really dark things. Sure. It's You know, we're completely demonized. Mean My
Smoke:other charity, Sacred, which I'm on the board of, is, you know, for sexually abused children. It's we're we're get we're we give money for the family of children who are abused. Like a little it's a little lifeline. It's I think the average gift is, like, $3,500. Yeah.
Smoke:It's to pay the rent. It's for mom to go look for another job, to get a different apartment, you know, to buy some groceries. It's literally that low. That simple. Yeah.
Smoke:But that's huge. Because what happens is these kids, you know, these families, in many cases, not all cases, but in many cases, it's a, you know, it's a stepfather, it's a boyfriend, or it's a dad who is perpetrating these things. They go to jail, and all of a sudden, the family has no income. Yeah. They're out on the street, or they they mom's trying to work three jobs.
Smoke:I read the we get the we get the reports when they they do request to get donations from our foundation. And we get so they're anonymized. We don't know the names of people. Yeah. Of But we get the story.
Smoke:Yeah.
Chris:It's horrific. I mean,
Smoke:you read these stories, you you would be you it's hard not to judge. Mhmm. And yet and someone asked me, well, why what's the point in giving somebody a month's worth of, you know, expenses? Aren't they just gonna isn't you know, is that gonna do anything? Well, you know what?
Smoke:You know, I experienced child abuse and I got beyond it and went on to have a great life and broke the cycle and everything else. And, you know, how many of these kids, how many of these families just with just the knowing that somebody cares and giving them a little respite from the storm are gonna break out and become successes and get out of the cycle and get out of the net low level of consciousness. Yeah. None of know. One?
Smoke:A thousand? Who knows? It doesn't really matter to me. One might be enough. Yeah.
Smoke:So but again, the judgment, it I I went down a rabbit hole there, but it's when you read these reports, it's Chris, it's shocking. Yeah. What what these people are living in. And that's that's here in successful America. Yeah.
Smoke:Yeah. And and as a society, I I go to the to the mystics again. Maeste Ehrichard is one of my favorites. I told you about him. Mhmm.
Smoke:You know, one of his famous quotes is the eye with which I see God looks back at me. So we're all it's his recognition. It's the Christ consciousness. It's recognizing that we are we are one with the father. Less than, but we are one with him.
Smoke:Right? Yes. So we are all that. That is true. If you recognize that, a society that ignores the least well off, whether it's homeless or it's these families that are in these in these situations with with their child abuse, we ignore it.
Smoke:Society can't, at some point has to look in the mirror itself and the reflection that comes back from the mirror, you know, is going to tell us a lot of things. So doing these things for me is about that. It's about someone's gotta do something. And, you know, we do our real part. You do your part.
Smoke:If everybody does their part, actually, we can solve a lot of this stuff. Yeah. It's it's raising a consciousness level of of our whole society. Yeah. For the least of these.
Smoke:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, none of these people can do anything for me. Yeah. Except they do everything for us if we help
Chris:them. Yeah.
Smoke:You know, it's we're helping ourselves.
Chris:No. Absolutely. Because I love what you're doing. I think it's tremendous. Well And the cops are
Smoke:a really great place. Yeah. And I think it's I I think you and I love what you're doing and I I think it's important that those of us who have are wet, have gone into the river, share the message because and share it proudly and share it without proselytizing, without judging, just because we can. And there may be one person or there may be a lot of people watching this who are sitting there saying, I feel this in my heart. I believe what these guys are saying.
Smoke:And I have been unwilling to proclaim, unwilling to raise my hand and and, you know, call out injustice or just recognize my own Yeah. Division and just just proclaim it because I'm afraid to, because of today's society. You know what? Give we give permission to that. Or or because I'm so bogged down by my own sin, my own past that I I don't think I'll ever be able to be forgiven.
Smoke:Yeah. And if you get in the river, you get wet.
Chris:Oh, yeah.
Smoke:No matter what has happened.
Chris:Yeah. That's the beauty of it.
Smoke:Yeah. So, it's never too late. Alright. It's never too late.
Chris:I had a hard time with that concept Yeah. For a long time.
Smoke:Right. It's not really fair that somebody can commit sin their whole life and then proclaim their their salvation and their their their love of Jesus and their they give it up and their their they get salvation. I had And yet and yet, you'd some people do it for decades. Yeah. It doesn't seem fair.
Smoke:Is that right? It's okay. I had a I had a great That's a high class problem by the way. Yeah. Probably.
Smoke:The ultimate high class problem. I had
Chris:a great counselor put it in perspective for me. I was really struggling with this concept. And he said to me, he goes, do you know who Paul was? You know, Saul who became Paul, the missionary, saw Jesus on the road to Damascus? I go, yeah, of course.
Chris:He goes, you know, he slaughtered Christians, like thousands. And yet, God forgave him and used him to build his church. So, he was a real evil man. What makes you so special? I've never forgotten that.
Chris:Yeah. And it's so if God can forgive a wretched, wretched man like Saul and and and give him a journey, Makes you so special. Yeah. And that has helped. That has anchored me much in my walk.
Chris:Yeah. That you are forgiven and you can walk in freedom. And if somebody starts poking you about your past, who you were, you haven't changed, flip from the side.
Smoke:Yeah. Yeah. And you
Chris:know your walk and you know the work that you've done.
Smoke:Yes. And That that happens. Absolutely.
Chris:And you forgive them for they know not what they do.
Smoke:I'm to a point, there's nothing to forgive. They just they know not what they do. So I don't even I don't even need I don't have the feeling of judgment. So I don't have a to forgive them because I already Well, because they're pre forgiven. When you're when you're Right.
Chris:When you walk in freedom and if people criticize you, you really just don't care. Right. You really just because you're doing, you feel like you're doing what God wants you to do or you have this conversation. So, you're you're moving forward in a way where walking in in God's foots footsteps, in his footprints. And people throw stuff at you, like, bounces off.
Chris:Yep. It's amazing.
Smoke:Well, Chris, this has been fun. Yeah. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate I talk about this stuff all day And yeah. It's it's it's fun for me to to bring different perspectives of how people get to where they are in their understanding of this and I think you brought a really, really cool perspective and I thank you.
Smoke:Yeah, you're welcome.
Chris:For your listeners and for your viewers, there's three books that they're curious and they haven't really decided, you know, which way they're going to go. There's three books that are really influential for me in my walk. One was the one I already talked about, Speaking of Jesus, by Karl Medeiros. You know, which is which just talks about how religion kind of boxes us into circles and we're not made for that. We're made for something different.
Chris:The other one is a book by a pastor by the name of David Platt called Radical. Okay. And it talks about how we've Americanized Christianity, so to speak, to to being about things rather than actually doing the things that you're doing, which is, you know, paying homage and going to the least of these. And then the last one is The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, which Lee was a I don't know if you know Lee's story. No.
Chris:Lee was a he was an atheist and he was a news reporter for the Chicago Tribune. His wife came home Oh, yeah.
Smoke:I, well, I watched the film.
Chris:You watched the film, yeah. Yeah, So, his wife came home one day and said, I'm getting baptized. She's like, you can't do that.
Smoke:Yeah, that's wrong. Yeah.
Chris:And then, he wanted to go out and prove her wrong and then decided that she was right. So, it's a great book that wells all historical documents. If you love history, and one thing that I really appreciate now is how science is catching up with
Smoke:the Bible. Yeah. In many, many ways. With quantum theory and the understanding that has now come Just archaeology. No.
Smoke:Both. Yes. And it's interesting. And it it never needed to be either or. No.
Smoke:But because of the church and the politics of the church Absolutely. Back in the days of Newton and so on, they they had a clear divinity. We're just this is this is science and you do you do spirituality over here. The reality is, it's always been intertwined. It ought to have been, but we've gone these paths of separation, which is Which
Chris:is bizarre because it really was the it really was people within the church to get closer to God. They were they had developed science. Yeah.
Smoke:And So, truth. Unfortunately, some of the consequences, you know, being anti spiritual or non spiritual has become a religion in and of itself.
Chris:Absolutely. So that is
Smoke:That's that's that's for another episode.
Chris:That's a whole another podcast.
Smoke:I think we could do that. Alright, my friend. Alright, brother.
Chris:Thank you so much. God bless you.
Smoke:Appreciate it.