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Thriller is a local austin bitcoin zine. | Listen to the pod http://thriller.transistor.fm | ⚡️thriller@getalby.com
Car [00:01:51]:
Super Testnet. Welcome back to Pleb Lab. How does it feel to be back in the land of the plebs?
Super Testnet [00:01:55]:
So exciting. I love publab and all the people in it. And here you guys are. Got back here and start. We're gonna have a movie night on Tuesday. We're gonna watch die hard one. And I just love seeing all my friends. I got here, and it was, like, a bit devs night.
Super Testnet [00:02:09]:
So going to bitdevs, seeing Carmen and Parker and all those guys was great. Yeah, this is perfect. Perfect time to be a pleb.
Car [00:02:18]:
Yeah. You came in yesterday, and I was on the wolf thing, and just everybody was screaming super chestnut, and I had to hit mute.
Super Testnet [00:02:26]:
Sorry.
Car [00:02:27]:
You don't say sorry to me.
Super Testnet [00:02:29]:
Sorry, wolf.
Car [00:02:33]:
Anyways, it was fun. I was kind of shocked to see you.
Super Testnet [00:02:37]:
Yeah, it wasn't expected. I was in Las Vegas for the last week doing my BitVm presentation for some developers there who were thinking about building on it. So I got. I showed them how to do it, and we wrote some code together, and it was great. And they. That was great. But then it ended, you know, I only had a hotel there until the 19th, so I was like, well, where do I go next? And I decided to come see my friends here.
Car [00:03:04]:
Wait, you didn't know where to go?
Super Testnet [00:03:06]:
Nope.
Car [00:03:07]:
Do you only book to Las Vegas? And you're like, I'm just gonna gamble at all?
Super Testnet [00:03:11]:
And then I didn't gamble, but you.
Car [00:03:13]:
Know what I mean?
Super Testnet [00:03:14]:
I just didn't know where I was gonna go afterwards. I had no plans, so I.
Car [00:03:18]:
It was your first thing? You were like, you know, I can always come back to plow blob. It's home. Did you think that. Did that cross your head?
Super Testnet [00:03:25]:
No, I don't think of it as home, but I just think of. I like the people here better than most other. Better than all other places.
Car [00:03:33]:
Oh, wow.
Super Testnet [00:03:34]:
Yeah.
Car [00:03:35]:
Wow. Heard it here first.
Super Testnet [00:03:38]:
That's right.
Car [00:03:39]:
That's awesome, man. What's good to have you back. I missed you?
Super Testnet [00:03:43]:
Yeah. And then we got some tacos today. Good. See? Uh. Got to hang out with friends doing more of that. Oh, and I'm doing work.
Car [00:03:56]:
Oh, yeah. Let's talk about your workshops. Tell me about. Tell me about your workshops and all that kind of stuff. Let's plug it.
Super Testnet [00:04:03]:
Ever since we started doing the weekly workshops here at club lab, I contributed many of them, probably, like, six or so of them last year. And I thought they were really good. I recorded all these things. I always put them on my YouTube channel, or sometimes they're on your YouTube channel, and I think there's a lot of value in them, but they just, you know, you go out, you put a video out, people like it, and then it's done kind of thing. And I was like, I need to bring it back and make it more of an ongoing thing. So what I decided to do is, I'm going to start doing of all those workshops I record, and I've made a few others since then. I kind of made a list of them, and I decided I'm going to do one workshop per month, and I sell tickets to them. So I selling tickets for $20 per workshop, and you can do a live workshop with me.
Super Testnet [00:04:54]:
And I also sell the pre recorded versions, the ones that we recorded at Club lab and the other ones. And so I put on my website, you can purchase these. These pre recorded ones if you want. And then, like, if you do purchase them, it's just a link to the YouTube video that you get. So I also just said, you can have it for free.
Car [00:05:12]:
That was so hilarious.
Super Testnet [00:05:13]:
Or you can pay for it, and then I get $5. And that's worked out really well.
Car [00:05:17]:
We were on Stacker News Live, and then Keenan were trying to figure out, wait, do we pay this? Do we pay that? And we're like, look, I think we just clicked on it.
Super Testnet [00:05:25]:
Yep. It was funny.
Car [00:05:27]:
I thought it was kind of funny, but I get your humor.
Super Testnet [00:05:30]:
Thanks.
Car [00:05:32]:
That's awesome, dude.
Super Testnet [00:05:33]:
Mostly, I try to make it so that everything I do has a free option.
Car [00:05:37]:
You know what I've noticed? I've noticed, like, bitcoiners don't believe you unless you do a workshop. Okay.
Super Testnet [00:05:43]:
Yeah.
Car [00:05:44]:
So, here, this is my theory. I did a graphene workshop, and then it got a lot of views, and then all of a sudden, people started inviting me to things just because I did a graphene workshop.
Super Testnet [00:05:55]:
Yeah.
Car [00:05:56]:
So I don't know if it's because people don't believe that you actually work during the day, and so they need to see proof of that. Or this is my other theory. Or it's just. Which I don't think it's this one. Or it's just that you do a plug lab workshop and then you. You blow up. I don't think it's that one. I think it's just that people don't know your expertise until you show it to them in a workshop.
Super Testnet [00:06:16]:
Yeah, that's part of it. And I think show and tell is kind of a big thing in bitcoin. It's really easy to say that you've made something, and there's lots of people who say they've made things or come up with ideas.
Car [00:06:28]:
Like that Bitvm guy.
Super Testnet [00:06:30]:
Yes, like them. But it's another thing to actually make a working example. And people, people like that better for some reason. To me, it's just because there's more value in something.
Car [00:06:42]:
You get a lot of free stuff from it. There's more value invited to conferences. You get free tickets. Sometimes you get money.
Super Testnet [00:06:50]:
Today I got money. I got like $3,000.
Car [00:06:52]:
I know.
Super Testnet [00:06:53]:
Yeah, it's amazing. That's like, I wanted to sponsor my workshops. Shout out BTC Eden. Thank you, guys. Hey, sponsor my work show so as a straight show. Well, hey, you asked about who gave you money recently.
Car [00:07:09]:
What was it going to say? Sir, are you going to wear, like, a shirt with their sponsorship on your back? If. Would you do that?
Super Testnet [00:07:14]:
No, they said they want me to put out a tweet thanking them for the thing and then mention them at the start of the workshop.
Car [00:07:21]:
So would you take Noster assets money if they gave it to you?
Super Testnet [00:07:24]:
I don't know who that is.
Car [00:07:25]:
Or would you take any, like, poopoo coin money?
Super Testnet [00:07:27]:
No. Well, I would take it.
Car [00:07:29]:
Where's the line for super is. There is no line for super.
Super Testnet [00:07:31]:
I made, actually, I made a GitHub project called good BTC groups, and I have criteria for getting on this list. And you have to be on the list in order for me to take sponsorship money from you.
Car [00:07:40]:
Wow, that's smart, dude.
Super Testnet [00:07:41]:
Yeah. So. So who's on the list exact right? It's on. Let me pull it up.
Car [00:07:47]:
So you're basically telling people, hey, I'll.
Super Testnet [00:07:49]:
Take your money if you follow these criteria. So it has.
Car [00:07:52]:
Yeah, let me pull it up. This is a good idea.
Super Testnet [00:07:54]:
Mm hmm. I thought it was a good idea.
Car [00:07:56]:
Did anybody go and, like, start bidding? You should do like a bid. You should make, like a bid thing, dude.
Super Testnet [00:08:01]:
Cos aventium in Brazil asked to be added onto there this BTC Eden group wanted to sponsor me and so I said, you have to meet my criteria.
Car [00:08:09]:
What's your criteria?
Super Testnet [00:08:10]:
It's on there.
Car [00:08:11]:
Check it out. Super chain, testnet tools. That's not you.
Super Testnet [00:08:15]:
It's search for it. Super testnets. One word on GitHub and I do it differently everywhere.
Car [00:08:22]:
Oh, there you go. Super test. Net. I'm in repositories.
Super Testnet [00:08:27]:
Yeah, you need to go to users.
Car [00:08:29]:
Oh, down here.
Super Testnet [00:08:30]:
Right there.
Car [00:08:31]:
Okay, let's see this. You might be onto something. All right, where is it?
Super Testnet [00:08:34]:
Click repositories.
Car [00:08:35]:
Repositories. You have 92 of these good BTC groups right there. Good BTC groups. Wow, dude, this is smart. Okay, so it says this is for the people at home. If you're a developer, you should probably listen to this. This is how you make money in bitcoin. Um, especially if you're a developer.
Car [00:08:52]:
Good BTC groups. A list of bitcoin groups whom I consider good actors criteria. I consider a bitcoin group good if it meets these conditions. The group does not sell any all coins. The group also publicly recommend against holding or using all coins. The group does not sell user ad data. The group does not give promotional opportunities to scammers. Wow, this is good.
Car [00:09:11]:
A group. Yeah. And then you go into a list. The good list. Async advancing, bitcoin, atomic finance, Austin, Bitdevs, base 58, Bitcoin plus, plus, a BitVM, club, bullocks wallet, BTC, Eden, cashew chain code, electric Wallet, Fetty Joy Market, Lightning Labs, liquid muni wallet, Miami, bit Devs, New York, bit devs, Pleb devs, RGB, Robo Sats, San Francisco, bit. Mostly just bit devs. It looks like there are a lot.
Super Testnet [00:09:38]:
Of bit devs in there. I think of them as, where's Pleb?
Car [00:09:40]:
You didn't even put club, dude, I.
Super Testnet [00:09:41]:
Forgot I was putting pleb devs down. And I meant to put shoes and crackers. I will add you.
Car [00:09:46]:
Right. Thriller. I don't even see thriller.
Super Testnet [00:09:48]:
Glad you on my phone, man. I'll add you.
Car [00:09:50]:
It's okay.
Super Testnet [00:09:51]:
I'll add my friend.
Car [00:09:53]:
We're gonna make a list that's gonna say a good BTC dev.
Super Testnet [00:09:58]:
And I'll be the only one.
Car [00:09:59]:
These are the ones that do shit coins. These are the ones that do. And yours is gonna be like. And you're just gonna be off the list.
Super Testnet [00:10:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. No, you're kidding. You guys are definitely gonna be on there. Just give me a minute. I forgot, I'm sorry.
Car [00:10:08]:
No, it's joke. Totally not gonna do that. If you're listening. But no, this is a good idea for. Keep it a modest.
Super Testnet [00:10:14]:
Yeah. And so I said, hey, if you want to be on my list, you got to meet these criteria. And did you tweet it? I have not tweeted this yet.
Car [00:10:20]:
You should tweet. It was a good idea.
Super Testnet [00:10:23]:
Okay.
Car [00:10:24]:
I noticed you didn't put a bitcoin conference on here.
Super Testnet [00:10:28]:
I didn't. Because they are giving promotional opportunities to scammers.
Car [00:10:32]:
Yeah.
Super Testnet [00:10:33]:
Lately. So you're on the. If I had an audience, you'd be on it. Bitcoin magazine.
Car [00:10:38]:
I don't know, man. It's. This is the time when. This is because we're at the part of the cycle where you make the most from scamming people.
Super Testnet [00:10:47]:
Yeah.
Car [00:10:47]:
So, I mean, I get it. It's a business. But I don't know, whenever I see that, I'm always just kind of like, oof.
Super Testnet [00:10:55]:
Pleb lab.
Car [00:10:58]:
Interesting. All right, you're on thriller on there, too.
Super Testnet [00:11:02]:
Okay, I'll add thriller, too, but give it a minute to update because it takes, like, would you add Vlad on there? I would add. I would not add Vlad Costello podcast.
Car [00:11:14]:
You wouldn't?
Super Testnet [00:11:14]:
I would not. Because he recommends the use of Monero.
Car [00:11:18]:
Oh, wow.
Super Testnet [00:11:19]:
Yeah.
Car [00:11:21]:
Would you add Cascader on there?
Super Testnet [00:11:23]:
Yes, I would ask. I think. Isn't Cascader on there already? I thought I added it.
Car [00:11:29]:
Well, what about bit escrow? Would you add bites grow on there?
Super Testnet [00:11:32]:
Yes. Thank you for reminding me of all these things. I need to add these.
Car [00:11:39]:
Did you have pleb devs on there?
Super Testnet [00:11:41]:
Yes, pleb devs is on there.
Car [00:11:42]:
Okay, well, that's good. Voltage. You didn't have voltage on here or wait, don't I.
Super Testnet [00:11:48]:
There's all these things. I can't remember all of them. I just made this list and I didn't think about it very much.
Car [00:11:54]:
It's a good idea.
Super Testnet [00:11:54]:
You said Cascader, you said thriller, so I'm gonna add thriller.
Car [00:11:57]:
Nice.
Super Testnet [00:11:57]:
And then who's the other one? You said voltage.
Car [00:12:01]:
Voltage. Yeah. Yeah.
Super Testnet [00:12:05]:
Okay.
Car [00:12:06]:
Open agents, too, but, yeah. Anyways, yeah, this is.
Super Testnet [00:12:09]:
I'd have to investigate them first. I know.
Car [00:12:11]:
What was it gonna say? This is a great idea.
Super Testnet [00:12:14]:
So it's a good list.
Car [00:12:15]:
I think this is the way to do it. Just be open, honest about it.
Super Testnet [00:12:18]:
And if you want to sponsor me, you gotta commit to these criteria.
Car [00:12:22]:
Wow. Are you gonna be transparent with how much they're paying you or no?
Super Testnet [00:12:26]:
Yeah, I got $3,200, but then.
Car [00:12:29]:
Wow, that's awesome. Well, if you're interested, bitcoin company, specifically on this list, I would imagine. You should probably reach out to super Chestnut. He's taking bids.
Super Testnet [00:12:40]:
You can open a GitHub issue and I'll add you if I like your group.
Car [00:12:44]:
Oh, really? Where? Under the branch?
Super Testnet [00:12:46]:
No, just go to issues. Scroll up a little more. All the way to the top. Yeah, issues. And one guy opened an issue, says one closed issue. That was GM and S paolo.
Car [00:12:58]:
Oh, that's. That's Lucas, right? Yep. Awesome.
Super Testnet [00:13:01]:
But so far, them and the BTC Eden guys asked to be on the list.
Car [00:13:06]:
Dang. Super.
Super Testnet [00:13:07]:
And now you. You asked to be on the list.
Car [00:13:08]:
Changing the game. Well, how to get you on the pod first? You know, what was I going to say? Let's jump into some of your. It's been a while since we talked about all your projects. What do you want to talk about first?
Super Testnet [00:13:21]:
Well, how about the latest thing I'm.
Car [00:13:25]:
Working on, super hedgehog.
Super Testnet [00:13:28]:
Okay.
Car [00:13:29]:
Sonic.
Super Testnet [00:13:30]:
Not Sonic, just regular hedgehogs. Okay. Hedgehog is my attempt to improve some of the things that frustrate me about the lighting network. So I kind of redesigned it around by frustrations and fixing them. And it has a lot of. It was designed very similarly to the lightning network because I do really like it and I use it every day. But the channel structure is different. And in particular with hedgehog, you can be offline when you receive money, which doesn't really work in lightning, at least they're like hacks, but they don't work well.
Super Testnet [00:14:06]:
So I've designed it around that feature. I want asynchronous payments from the start or try and emulate them as close as I can, and this is what you get. I don't know if you guys can see it on screen or you guys don't have a screen, right?
Car [00:14:19]:
No, we're just audio only.
Super Testnet [00:14:21]:
Yeah. So if two people have a channel, then they start out with a state where one of them has 100% of the money and the other has zero. And when you want to update the state, you sign a bitcoin transaction that modifies the balance. Instead of me having 100%, maybe I have 50%, you'd have 50%, and that would be a state update. So I sign that transaction and send it to you, and if you like it, then you cosign it. And you don't broadcast it. You just keep it in your wallet. You can broadcast it at any time, or you can do something called a revocation, which is where I use these scripts from the lightning network.
Super Testnet [00:14:54]:
For that, you can revoke the current state and then create a new state that modifies the balance again. And if your counterparty co signs it, and that's the new state, and you just keep doing that back and forth, back and forth, back and forth forever. And the nice thing is that your counterparty does not need to be online because you can just send it to them in email. Just be like, here's the state update giving you $10 or whatever.
Car [00:15:15]:
So was there somebody that was working on this before you, as far as, like, has this an idea that somebody had maybe done a while back, or maybe was it Bosworth or anybody back then? This is where you got the idea. Or is this just an idea in the lightning space that people have been trying to solve for a while?
Super Testnet [00:15:30]:
People have definitely been trying to solve to make asynchronous payments for a while. And Matt Corallo has a specification that is really good, but mine is different from his specification.
Car [00:15:41]:
How so?
Super Testnet [00:15:43]:
Well, his requires the use of lightning service to lightning service providers. And, well, initially it required ln URL as well. And I think his latest edition of it doesn't require ln URL, but in his model, you would tell your LSP, if you want to send someone a payment and they're offline, you would give your LSP a conditional payment, and their LSP would tell your recipient's LSP, let me know when they get online. And then once they do, then they would finish the payment from there. So you. And that worked? That theoretically works great. But I found a way to get rid of the LSP, get rid of at least one LSP and just have. And also in the peer to peer context, where you have a direct channel with your counterparty, you also don't need them to be online.
Super Testnet [00:16:32]:
There's. So there's two ways in which I think it's an improvement.
Car [00:16:35]:
So the only way this works is if you have a direct channel to the other lightning user that you're sending to.
Super Testnet [00:16:41]:
No, it works with that. And it also works if you have an LSP, but they do not.
Car [00:16:47]:
Okay, so let's say, hypothetically, I have a personal wallet that's sitting. I don't know. Is there a specific wallet that we have to be using?
Super Testnet [00:16:55]:
No. Okay, well, I mean, yeah, you have to use a wallet that supports hedgehog, of which there are none right now. I haven't made one, and no one else has either.
Car [00:17:03]:
Okay. Gotcha. Okay, so this is all just theory then. Yeah. Okay, well, let's say hypothetically, hedgehog gets a wallet created. Then I could have this wallet. You sent a payment from your hedgehog wallet or from a different wallet, I.
Super Testnet [00:17:19]:
Would send you a payment from my hedgehog wallet.
Car [00:17:21]:
Okay. And then, so that gets sent over. And then what happens? What happens there? Is it sitting on the LSP side that hedgehog has created, or is it sitting on the LSP? That is just a known LSP in.
Super Testnet [00:17:31]:
The space, like Matt Corralo spec. There's a conditional, you create a conditional payment for your LSP that he can only redeem. He can only take the money in that conditional payment if he learns a pre image. And you give that pre image to your intended recipient. And then they don't need a hedgehog wallet, they just need a regular lightning wallet. They create a lightning invoice that completes that payment. If you pay this lightning payment, you'll get the pre image you need. So then your LSP, the one you set up the conditional payment for, pays that in order to get the pre image, they need to collect your payment to them.
Car [00:18:06]:
So me on my side, I'm collecting the payment from the LSP, or am I collecting it? Because you said I have the preimage, right.
Super Testnet [00:18:13]:
In my perspective, you're collecting it from the LSP.
Car [00:18:15]:
But you said I have the pre image.
Super Testnet [00:18:18]:
You have a secret, a secret piece of data that the LSP needs in order to get the payment from me.
Car [00:18:26]:
So I guess to receive offline payments in this hedgehog wallet, theoretically I would need to sign up with my LSP authorizing some sort of offline payment.
Super Testnet [00:18:36]:
Just the sender needs to have an LSP. This recipient does not. The recipient just needs a regular lightning wallet.
Car [00:18:43]:
Okay, so I guess the sender needs to have a relationship with the LSP or some sort of setting that allows them to hold funds to send forward to other hedgehog wallets or people that support hedgehog.
Super Testnet [00:18:55]:
Yes.
Car [00:18:56]:
Is that making sense or no? I feel like I'm trying to make sense.
Super Testnet [00:18:58]:
The sender needs to have hedgehog in order to do this. The recipient does not. The recipient just sees a regular lightning payment. But the. Yeah, so one of the things that I did is I made it so that in order to run the LSP software, I wrote the LSP software. So you can just attach it to an LNd node and then you're good. In fact, you can just attach to any node using Nostra wallet connect, and then you can run it so that you can run it on any lightning node.
Car [00:19:22]:
Okay, wait. Okay, so now let's back up a little more. So sorry, because I want to really understand this. So if you send in this world two Hedgehog wallets exist. I have one. You have one. You're sending me 2000 sats or whatever that. 2000 sats is an LSP that you created off of your super testnet node on the Lightning network, right?
Super Testnet [00:19:44]:
It could be, but if. But the point is that I don't want to have to run a node. I don't want to have the sender to have to run a node in order to do this. So the sender finds someone who's running the LSP software, they open a channel with them, they create a conditional payment that says, like, I will pay you 2001 sats if you will pay, you know, my friend, 2000. Oh, and then you're. When that. When you're. But then I tell you what LSP to go do this with.
Car [00:20:12]:
So you're basically making a moneygram.
Super Testnet [00:20:14]:
Yeah.
Car [00:20:14]:
On the lightning network.
Super Testnet [00:20:16]:
Sure.
Car [00:20:17]:
So basically I go to Walmart or you go to Walmart.
Super Testnet [00:20:21]:
Yeah.
Car [00:20:22]:
You send to cars address, and then that money grand payment is. Is paid on my end.
Super Testnet [00:20:29]:
What's more? Like, I go to Walmart and I tell Walmart, my friend Carr is gonna come and pick up this $2,000. I will give you the $2,000.
Car [00:20:36]:
But if you're in Las Vegas gambling or not gambling, if you're in Las Vegas and you just want a million dollars, you're like, you know, I'm gonna send car money, hedgehog payments, kind of similar to that. You would just go to. You would send it from Las Vegas to me to my address. In this scenario, if you're online.
Super Testnet [00:20:53]:
But if you're not online, then I give it to Walmart. I give it to my LSP moneygram in a conditional payment. So they can't, because of the way that bitcoin works, they can't just take it. They have to pay you first.
Car [00:21:05]:
And then they're just pinging my Zeus wallet until it turns on or something. Or what?
Super Testnet [00:21:09]:
No, I just send you an email and I say, here's where the money is. You can go. You can go redeem it from them. From my LSP.
Car [00:21:17]:
But. Okay, so, all right, here. Hang on a second. I got more questions. Now, this is a really interesting idea, but how is that any different than the e cache stuff?
Super Testnet [00:21:27]:
Well, because e cash is custodial and this is not.
Car [00:21:30]:
But is it an LSP sort of custodial? Maybe not.
Super Testnet [00:21:38]:
They have the ability to censor. So the LSP could say, I'm not doing this, go find someone else, and then I would just have to find a different one to do it. But they can't. I never give them the money.
Car [00:21:49]:
Oh, wow. So you, so you're basically saying there might just be. So you're saying, like, maybe hypothetically in this scenario, there might just be an LSP that only does these types of, these types of money, grams or whatever, to wallets. Yeah. Hedgehog payments. Interesting. You're creating a whole nother, potentially. I mean, you're creating a whole nother ecosystem.
Car [00:22:16]:
Or not ecosystem. We create a whole nother revenue stream for. For LSP's, for.
Super Testnet [00:22:20]:
Yep. And for. I made it so that the soft. As long as you have any wallet that supports Nostra wallet connect, you can do this.
Car [00:22:26]:
So you can get in. Yeah. Okay. Now let's, let's jump into the Nostra wallet side.
Super Testnet [00:22:29]:
Yeah.
Car [00:22:30]:
So are you using Noster on hedgehog?
Super Testnet [00:22:32]:
Oh, you are? Yeah.
Car [00:22:34]:
And tell me, where does that fit on this kind of flow chart that's in my head right now.
Super Testnet [00:22:40]:
I'm just using it to do the connection to a wallet. There are three wallets that I can think of that support Nostra wallet connect. There's Albie, stacker news and mutiny. Those are the only ones I'm aware of. I'm sure there's others that I haven't looked at. But if you have one of those, then you can create a Nostra wallet connect string, paste it into this web app I made. Now, you are an LSP and you will make these payments on other people's behalf.
Car [00:23:05]:
Okay, so let's say hypothetically, in this scenario, somebody here in the, or let's just say plug lab, club makes, makes a hedgehog LSP or whatever, it uses a stacker news account and it has 2 million sats sitting on there or something. You want to send 2000 sats to me, like we, in this scenario from Las Vegas, you send it through club labs, LSP.
Super Testnet [00:23:34]:
I do.
Car [00:23:35]:
Okay. And then how do I get it on the Zeus wall? Or let's say hypothetically, Zeus does have nostra wallet connect. How would I get it on the Zeus site?
Super Testnet [00:23:43]:
You don't. Zeus does not need nostalgia wallet connect. Zeus just needs to be able to receive lightning payments. So you would get an email from me and the email would say, if you go to LSP dot Stackernews.com and you paste in this piece, this little string, it's going to ask you for a lightning invoice. You give it a lightning invoice and then you get 2000 sats.
Car [00:24:04]:
That's dope.
Super Testnet [00:24:05]:
Yeah. And Stacker news never had custody of the funds at any point so where.
Car [00:24:09]:
Are the holes in this then? Because everything sounds. I mean, it sounds theoretically possible, right? Like, this all makes sense. Even a dumb guy like me can figure this out. So what's the holdup?
Super Testnet [00:24:20]:
I've written the code. It's just messy and ugly. I hope to continue to give presentations like I did in Prague about it and how it works, and hopefully a better coder will come along and.
Car [00:24:31]:
Okay, so right now. So right now, if you're listening and you just heard what me and super testnet we're talking about, and you want to make a bazillion dollars on lightning network, you should reach out to him because this is a potential revenue stream, dude. A sick revenue stream.
Super Testnet [00:24:46]:
Yep.
Car [00:24:47]:
Screw running a no, you could just.
Super Testnet [00:24:49]:
Run it on a mutiny wall or a stack or whatever, you know.
Car [00:24:52]:
You know, it kind of makes me wonder, like, this would be perfect for wallets maybe too, right? Like they could just have.
Super Testnet [00:25:00]:
Yeah. If they learned this protocol, then instead of me sending you an email, I could send you a message.
Car [00:25:06]:
Wallet? Yeah, like a muni wallet that has deep nostril DM's. It could literally. You could just literally send me a nostril DM saying, I have a hedgehog payment waiting.
Super Testnet [00:25:14]:
And they could, as soon as you check, it could automatically redeem it for you.
Car [00:25:19]:
Not using e cash, though, or using ecash.
Super Testnet [00:25:22]:
Ecash is not involved. Zero connection to e cash whatsoever.
Car [00:25:25]:
Interesting. This is really interesting. So what they say last night or you can't talk about it, but you presented it last night at bitdevs.
Super Testnet [00:25:35]:
I guess I did, yeah. I can talk about what. What was said. Just.
Car [00:25:39]:
I thought you couldn't talk about stuff in bitdevs.
Super Testnet [00:25:41]:
Just not. You can't attribute it to anyone.
Car [00:25:43]:
Oh, okay. What was the reception?
Super Testnet [00:25:46]:
They liked it. They wondered, why isn't it already like this in lightning?
Car [00:25:50]:
Yeah, totally.
Super Testnet [00:25:53]:
Sorry.
Car [00:25:53]:
Keep going. I'm sorry, keep going.
Super Testnet [00:25:55]:
They had good questions. A lot of them are developers. They had technical questions about how the HTlcs work and why am I using relative time logs instead of absolute time locks? Stuff like that.
Car [00:26:05]:
So a bunch of really devi stuff. Sounds like they're just checking you. Okay. Did you answer them all correctly? Were they satisfied with the answers?
Super Testnet [00:26:13]:
They seem to be okay. Yeah, I think so. I've also talked to a lot of lightning experts about it, and they seem to. They seem to think it's cool, too. So I talked to Christian Decker when I was in Prague, and he really liked it. He has also come up with ways to do similar things. So he was like, we were comparing notes on solutions we've come up with for this stuff, so it was great.
Car [00:26:36]:
Wow.
Super Testnet [00:26:37]:
Talking with legends, dude.
Car [00:26:41]:
You know, I have this. I think, you know. Tell me if this is accurate. I think this is more accurate. The more I hang out with you, the more I know you, the more I realize that maybe. Hey, Logan's here. Hey, Logan.
Super Testnet [00:26:53]:
Hi, Logan.
Car [00:26:53]:
I like that vest. Topher's right there, I think.
Super Testnet [00:26:57]:
Okay.
Car [00:26:57]:
Okay.
Super Testnet [00:26:58]:
Yeah.
Car [00:26:59]:
He just needs, like. I'll let him explain it. What was I gonna say? Yeah.
Super Testnet [00:27:06]:
The more you hang out with me.
Car [00:27:07]:
Yeah. So the more I hang out with you, the more I realize that. I think you being super testing it allows you to see the world a little bit differently for, like, the average pleb. And this is my kind of crazy theory. So you want to. You want to hear it or no?
Super Testnet [00:27:20]:
Yeah.
Car [00:27:20]:
So me and you, we're an average plebs. We go to 711, we go to church, we go to Walmart, we go to these normal things. We hang out with normal people. Not to say. We not say bitcoiners aren't normal, but what I'm trying to get at is, do you think that's why you're able to come up with these solutions, just because you see things a little bit more practical and more grounded than some other people that are developing in the lightning ecosystem? Or do you think it's just that they're just not focused on it and there's just not enough lightning developers? Which is probably that, but I.
Super Testnet [00:27:54]:
Well, I think that being who I am does help, and I'll get to why that in a minute. But I think what I want to say is, I think most people in this space, they try to. Most developers try to find a job somewhere, which is great. You should do that. But in order to do that, you kind of have to find an existing. You have to find some company who's doing some existing thing and then find a way to help them, which is great. I recommend doing that.
Car [00:28:22]:
So you're saying.
Super Testnet [00:28:22]:
I'm not doing that.
Car [00:28:23]:
Hang on. So you're saying, just given an example there, somebody who's a lightning developer, comes in the ecosystem, gets a job at blockstream, then they have to focus just on that kind of stuff, is what you're saying.
Super Testnet [00:28:35]:
They have to do what they're told there, and they have to solve the problems that those people are trying to solve.
Car [00:28:39]:
Same thing with lightning labs. They would just go to lightning labs or it could be async or.
Super Testnet [00:28:43]:
So I'm an independent developer. I don't have a job. I don't work for anyone. And so I'm free to think of new stuff. Like I have the time and the resources to come up with new ideas and then make them. And other people just can't do that. You can't spend all your time doing just some crazy idea you had because you've got a job and you've got to do that job. And if you don't have a job, you're probably looking for one because you run out of money.
Super Testnet [00:29:08]:
So the fact that I have that freedom makes it easier for me. And I also think that as a Catholic and as a normal pleb, I think I am a little bit. That kind of independence that I have in my work life is also something that I'm just different. I'm different from other people.
Car [00:29:27]:
You're definitely one in a bazillion dude.
Super Testnet [00:29:30]:
Yeah. So I think that the ability to be different makes it so that I can look at things from a different perspective and try and come up with novel ways of solving problems.
Car [00:29:39]:
I do see how Catholicism plays in it, too, because you definitely like the more holy path, the harder path, and you can see that in your work. Even if it's like you like that. It's hard, I would imagine.
Super Testnet [00:29:52]:
Yes. I find it fun to try and find solutions to hard problems.
Car [00:29:56]:
Yeah, this is a great idea. So you said there's no one really showing interest right now.
Super Testnet [00:30:04]:
One guy did, a guy from synonym. Synonym Dev is John Carvalho's company. And he expressed an interest. So he took a look at the repository, did a phone call with me, and I think he said he's implementing it as part of synonyms wallet. So that, yeah, we'll see where that goes. I also talked about it with John. He was in Prague. John's.
Super Testnet [00:30:28]:
You mean John Carvalho?
Car [00:30:29]:
Oh, Carvalho. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Super Testnet [00:30:31]:
And so he knew about this and was like, yeah, I think one of my devs said that he got it to work with our wallet. So that's pretty cool.
Car [00:30:38]:
So I have another question for you. This is just totally just side question real quick. It's not related to hedgehog, but do you think people are moving away from lnurl? Is that what it is? Because when I came in as a pleb in 21, I asked you guys like, why don't we have offline payments? And y'all said, you do. It's called ln URL.
Super Testnet [00:30:54]:
Withdraw.
Car [00:30:54]:
Withdraw. Put this on there, all this kind of stuff. And then I tried it for like a day or two or a week or whatever it was. And it wasn't ideal. Cause there's different amounts outside of just the one QR code or whatever. And at the time, you know, remember the whole Satoshi pocket thing?
Super Testnet [00:31:14]:
I do remember Satoshi pocket, yeah.
Car [00:31:15]:
And I was like, yeah, this would be cool. We can have like, you know, offline, whatever.
Super Testnet [00:31:18]:
And you guys, I remember you making one of those QR codes and putting it on an ipod.
Car [00:31:22]:
Cause I really wanted it to work anyway. So do you think we're moving away from ln URL. Or is it just something that'll just be kind of combined with, like, bolt twelve and some of this other stuff, like hedgehog?
Super Testnet [00:31:33]:
Well, I think we're moving away from ln URL. Withdraw. I don't think that doesn't see any use. The other one. Ln URL. Pay is the other main one. And that's seeing a lot of usage because it's the basis for lightning addresses and everyone's using those now.
Car [00:31:45]:
So we're definitely moving away from ln URL. Withdrawal.
Super Testnet [00:31:47]:
It seems to me like that is used less and less now. And in my projects. And in the projects from some of my friends here at Bleb Lab, it's being replaced by Nostra Wallet connect strings.
Car [00:31:59]:
Interesting.
Super Testnet [00:32:00]:
Yeah. So you can give someone.
Car [00:32:02]:
Yeah, you're right.
Super Testnet [00:32:03]:
Like granular permissions to withdraw a certain amount of money from your lightning wallet.
Car [00:32:08]:
Yeah, you're right. We don't use ln URL anymore. Is it because it was attached to a whole DNS thing and all that kind of stuff?
Super Testnet [00:32:14]:
That didn't help? In order to run one, you have to run a server. And with ln URL or with Nostra wallet Connect, you don't.
Car [00:32:21]:
You just need an amp hub.
Super Testnet [00:32:23]:
Yes. Well, actually, you do need to run a server, but it doesn't need to be a web server. You need to have a wallet that's online frequently enough to be able to make these payments. But even that, you don't actually have to run a server even there because you can do it with mutiny wallet, which is not a server.
Car [00:32:36]:
Yeah. Or primal.
Super Testnet [00:32:38]:
So, yeah, that's pretty neat.
Car [00:32:40]:
You can talk. Yeah, we're just recording. But you can talk. I know. It's okay. What do you. What do you need help with? Oh, we got like another 30 minutes probably. Um, what time you gotta leave Logan? Oh, he's staying.
Car [00:32:55]:
Okay, cool. We'll be done here in like 30. Sorry. People that are listening at home. Yeah, you got a small space here at blah, blah, and everybody wants to talk.
Super Testnet [00:33:08]:
It's a great day to talk.
Car [00:33:10]:
It's Friday. What were we talking about? The ln URL thing.
Super Testnet [00:33:14]:
Yeah. Is the LNR. Yeah.
Car [00:33:15]:
So you said l and URL withdrawals. Yeah, you're right. It is gone. I don't remember last time I used it.
Super Testnet [00:33:19]:
It's not gone. There are some faucets that still use it, but. Yeah, that's basically, I think it's being. In my experience and what I do, it's being replaced by nostra wallet connect, and it might also be replaced by bolt twelve. I've seen a couple walls using that.
Car [00:33:33]:
How do you feel about bolt twelve? Are you a bolt twelve hater too?
Super Testnet [00:33:36]:
I'm not a hater. I think it is a slight, well, in privacy terms, it's a significant improvement over bolt eleven in every other way. It's a very slight improvement over bolt eleven. And I think that there are. It's not going to do what people hope it will. They hope it'll allow them to receive payments when they're offline.
Car [00:33:56]:
Yeah, that's.
Super Testnet [00:33:56]:
Won't do that.
Car [00:33:58]:
That's what the clubs want.
Super Testnet [00:34:00]:
Yeah, I want that.
Car [00:34:02]:
I want to be able to go to. Well, not me, but I've heard people want to be able to graffiti their bolt twelve addresses on property.
Super Testnet [00:34:14]:
Okay.
Car [00:34:14]:
Can't, this is not possible.
Super Testnet [00:34:16]:
Well, we have. You can do that now with lightning addresses because you can graffiti that in a wall and get you. So I think that's like a solved problem. But it's not very private. And bolt twelve makes it more private.
Car [00:34:26]:
Oh, does it? How so?
Super Testnet [00:34:28]:
It uses something called blinded paths, which are possible today, but they're hard to do today. And I don't know anyone who, any wallet that uses them. But when you send a lightning payment, the receiver doesn't have very good privacy. They leak their public key, they leak what server they're running on, so you can contact them through there and negotiate their IP address or their tour address. And if you use bool twelve, you do not leak that. You set up something similar to how the onion network does it. If you are running a tour hidden service, you say what node to talk to, and that node knows how to talk to you. So you have a middleman between you and your actual sender.
Super Testnet [00:35:10]:
And it helps. It helps a lot with privacy. That's interesting, but we'll see. I was talking to someone yesterday. It's like you can promise the world before something exists. The boat twelve does exist now, but let it get a little bit. Use it to let Tony throw knives at it, and then we'll find out what it really is capable, and then.
Car [00:35:29]:
Some people won't even want it. Mm hmm. To be honest, this is what I see with e cash. Like, I don't want it. So you're just kind of building it for nothing, or you're building it for a different group of people.
Super Testnet [00:35:38]:
This would be the podcast that doesn't talk about e cash.
Car [00:35:40]:
Well, I'm giving you example. I'm giving you example. Like, sometimes you can be building to something that people don't want. It's true. Yep. Even in the real world, too.
Super Testnet [00:35:48]:
Hey, I know a lot about building things people don't want.
Car [00:35:51]:
I'm an expert in that. I know about that, too. Gosh. Anyways. Yeah. I don't know. It's interesting, this hedgehog thing. Yeah.
Car [00:36:03]:
Hopefully it takes off. Man, this seems like a cool idea. Moneygram. Moneygram, huh?
Super Testnet [00:36:07]:
Similar. Yeah.
Car [00:36:09]:
Interesting.
Super Testnet [00:36:10]:
But, you know, money. Moneygram is, of course, just a standard money service business as you give them their money.
Car [00:36:14]:
So it's more like Zelle, then?
Super Testnet [00:36:16]:
Well, they're also standard, but almost everything in the Fiat world is like, you give someone your money, and then you ask them to send it to whoever you want. And this is a bit different from that. It's like, I will give you a conditional payment. You can only take this money if you first send my recipient how much?
Car [00:36:31]:
So it's like doing a drug deal. It's like having a runner, basically.
Super Testnet [00:36:36]:
I don't see the analogy there.
Car [00:36:39]:
It's totally like having a runner. You give somebody the drugs, they hold it onto you, then they send a runner. You don't watch narcos. Did you not watch narcos?
Super Testnet [00:36:48]:
No, I didn't watch narcos. I don't have much experience with the drug world.
Car [00:36:54]:
It's all on narcos and breaking bad. Interesting. Dude.
Super Testnet [00:36:58]:
I did watch Breaking Bad. I don't remember them having runners in there. At least I don't think they focused on that.
Car [00:37:03]:
Yeah, I think Jesse was a runner multiple times in that show, okay, for Walt. And then the other guy. Was it the guy Mike Logan knows? Logan knows that show really well.
Super Testnet [00:37:15]:
Anyways, get him on the podcast. I don't. I only saw the first. I think I saw three seasons of it.
Car [00:37:21]:
You never watched the last season?
Super Testnet [00:37:22]:
I haven't watched the last season.
Car [00:37:23]:
Oh, it's really good, dude. He dies at the end, but, yeah.
Super Testnet [00:37:27]:
Oh, well.
Car [00:37:29]:
Well, technically. I mean, it doesn't show him dying, all right? He could be alive. Spoiler alert for people who haven't seen breaking bad.
Super Testnet [00:37:37]:
If you need spoilers. Better call Saul. Better call Saul.
Car [00:37:40]:
Oh, dude, did you watch the end of Better Call Saul? It actually was a more depressing ending than Breaking Bad.
Super Testnet [00:37:49]:
I've watched one total episode of Better Call Saul.
Car [00:37:52]:
I watched Better Call Saul Cause Logan told me to watch it, and it was actually pretty depressing. Oh, well, it was really good.
Super Testnet [00:38:00]:
I've heard good things about it. I like the episode.
Car [00:38:01]:
No, it's good. It's good. But the last season is just guts you. Yeah. Really? It makes you feel bad for soul. All right, let's jump into some of your other repositories. So are you still doing the BitvM stuff? I know you don't like talking about it anymore. You don't have to if you don't want to.
Super Testnet [00:38:18]:
I don't mind talking about it.
Car [00:38:19]:
Oh, you want to talk about it?
Super Testnet [00:38:20]:
Oh, okay. I am currently doing a bit vm based project, a new one.
Car [00:38:23]:
Cap leaf circuits.
Super Testnet [00:38:25]:
No, not that. That's an old project.
Car [00:38:26]:
This is an old one.
Super Testnet [00:38:28]:
That was the first implementation of it.
Car [00:38:29]:
Descriptions? No, not that one. Breaker of GitHub. That was so good.
Super Testnet [00:38:33]:
Dude, my new one's on GitHub yet.
Car [00:38:35]:
Whatever. Just real quick for the people at home. Super testnet once sent a tweet that said, this is right around Oppenheimer, which was perfect timing for it. You once sent a tweet? No, wait, what did it say?
Super Testnet [00:38:47]:
It was a GitHub message. It was. I am become math breaker of jpegs because I thought I found a way to make inscriptions not work anymore. And I was wrong. They still work.
Car [00:38:58]:
But look, he even did the thing.
Super Testnet [00:39:02]:
Jim did that for me. He made that picture.
Car [00:39:04]:
This is amazing. But you actually didn't break jpegs though, right?
Super Testnet [00:39:08]:
I did not. I thought I did. And they still work.
Car [00:39:11]:
Okay, I thought you did break jpegs.
Super Testnet [00:39:13]:
I found a bug that allowed me to inscribe other people's coins, which you're not supposed to be able to do. And in order to fix this bug, they had to, like, revert some numbers. Like, it made. It made the numbers not match anymore what they're supposed to, because the inscription numbers, like, who has the first inscription, who has the 500th, is, like, really important to them. So it made the numbers not match anymore. Quite. And in order to fix it, I think they had to, like, shift everything back by several digits. Yeah, but I'm not.
Super Testnet [00:39:43]:
I'm not an expert. I might be wrong about that. You should talk to Casey to find out.
Car [00:39:47]:
Did you ever talk to him about it.
Super Testnet [00:39:48]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Car [00:39:49]:
Is he mad at you?
Super Testnet [00:39:50]:
He did get mad at me, yes.
Car [00:39:52]:
Oh, wow. Really?
Super Testnet [00:39:53]:
Not because of the breaker of JPEg. He thought that was cool. He got mad because when he was going to fix it, I started a GitHub thread with him in which I encouraged him not to fix it, but to just give me free stuff. And he thought that was jerk move. Me trying to. He was like, you found a bug. Kudos. That's a good thing.
Super Testnet [00:40:13]:
Telling me not to fix it is weird and annoying.
Car [00:40:17]:
Can you also just say for the record that Kari is not the one that's telling you to do this. You're doing it on your own. Can you just say that for the record, Kara?
Super Testnet [00:40:24]:
I think people think that I give.
Car [00:40:25]:
You these crazy ideas, which I don't.
Super Testnet [00:40:26]:
Let me just clear the record here. Kara is the puppet master. I do not think it's supposed to.
Car [00:40:30]:
That's not true.
Super Testnet [00:40:31]:
I came up with all this stuff independently. Car had nothing to do with it.
Car [00:40:34]:
Yeah, I usually find out once it's done. Yeah. Barack has a laugh.
Super Testnet [00:40:38]:
Barack told me how to send this. The transaction I made was weird, and I had to send it directly to a miner and he hooked me up so that I could do that. So Barack helps. Thank you, Barack. I mean, he was breaker of lightning. I was. Well, I thought I was breaker of jpegs. I guess both of them still work, though.
Super Testnet [00:40:56]:
So maybe neither of us broke anything.
Car [00:40:58]:
Yeah.
Super Testnet [00:40:59]:
Or only temporarily.
Car [00:41:00]:
That's good. I mean, it's. I mean, it's not good, but it's. It's. It's kind of funny.
Super Testnet [00:41:05]:
Funny?
Car [00:41:06]:
Yeah, certainly funny. You guys like to play jokes on stuff, so it's kind of funny. Hopefully no one got hurt. Yeah. So which is the one that you're talking about? The bitvm one? I don't see that one.
Super Testnet [00:41:15]:
It's not on my GitHub yet.
Car [00:41:16]:
Oh, it's private. You do private stuff?
Super Testnet [00:41:18]:
Yeah, I usually try to get the code working before I put it on my GitHub.
Car [00:41:21]:
Oh.
Super Testnet [00:41:22]:
But not always. This new project is a recreation of my coin flip game. So I have a. I have a coin flip game. It's also not in here.
Car [00:41:32]:
Oh, my gosh.
Super Testnet [00:41:33]:
That was back when I was Brill Satan. So it's on.
Car [00:41:35]:
Oh, it's on. Brilliant.
Super Testnet [00:41:36]:
Dude.
Car [00:41:36]:
We were talking about it the other day.
Super Testnet [00:41:37]:
Brilliance. Bitcoin.
Car [00:41:38]:
She's. She's kind of hot.
Super Testnet [00:41:39]:
Dude, you're on the.
Car [00:41:41]:
See if I can find her.
Super Testnet [00:41:42]:
Yeah.
Car [00:41:43]:
Brill set on. Is she ever going to come back.
Super Testnet [00:41:47]:
It's brilliant. Bitcoin. Is her, is her username on?
Car [00:41:49]:
Yeah, right there. Oh, you don't have her picture anymore?
Super Testnet [00:41:52]:
Not on GitHub.
Car [00:41:53]:
You should probably put it on there.
Super Testnet [00:41:54]:
I should probably put it on there.
Car [00:41:55]:
Should get the clicks.
Super Testnet [00:41:56]:
The one that says coin flip.
Car [00:41:57]:
Oh, there it goes. I see it.
Super Testnet [00:41:58]:
I'm remaking coin flip. And the new coin flip is based on bit Vm, the techniques that we discovered for bitVM for punishing misbehavior and stuff. And what's coin flip again?
Car [00:42:11]:
This is kind of like the voorhees thing where you just do you just roll the dice?
Super Testnet [00:42:15]:
Well, yeah, except you flip a coin, but it's two people create a bitcoin address where they're going to do a coin flip. They both send money to it, and one of them gets to keep the money depending on who wins the coin flip. And the nice thing is that unlike Satoshi dice, there's no server involved, there's no third party oracle or anything.
Car [00:42:33]:
So how are you flipping the coin?
Super Testnet [00:42:36]:
Using Bitvm commitments is my new way to do it. In the new way. One of the things that we discovered with bit VM is how to commit to revealing a zero or a one without showing it in advance. So we do that. The one party, the flipper, commits to either a zero or a one is what they like. When you flip the coin and it lands.
Car [00:42:58]:
What's one? Heads.
Super Testnet [00:42:59]:
Heads is one and tails is zero. So you flip one and you don't reveal which one it is, then the other party has to guess. They have to reveal a zero or a one as their guess. And if they match, then you do the reveal. If they match, then the guesser gets the money. And if they don't match, then the flipper gets the money.
Car [00:43:17]:
Okay.
Super Testnet [00:43:17]:
And so that's, that's how the coin flip works. And I use bit VM for the bit commitment and also to punish either party if either party, like, abandons the game halfway through and they get punished.
Car [00:43:27]:
Does somebody want to play this, though? I feel like I wouldn't gamble my bitcoin for coin toss.
Super Testnet [00:43:33]:
What I think is going to be neat. I suspect it'll be the first bit VM application on Mainnet. So everything else we've done has been on Testnet so far, so I think people will be interested in it for that.
Car [00:43:44]:
Oh, so it's just as more just like an application.
Super Testnet [00:43:47]:
Yeah, it's a demonstrate, proof of, proof of concept. As typical with me, it's pretty much a proof of concept. But the other thing, I think I'm trying to combine it with hedgehog so that you fund these contracts off chain and you don't have to spend bitcoin transactions to play this game, or spend it doesn't cost bitcoin transaction fees to play it. So I think that'll be attractive to people.
Car [00:44:10]:
Hmm. Okay. And how's the bit VM space going?
Super Testnet [00:44:15]:
Is it very scammy, really.
Car [00:44:18]:
Is there any specific person you want to call out? Yes, this is the pod to call them out on.
Super Testnet [00:44:23]:
Yes, I am happy to call out a few groups, but let me call the good ones first. So there are about 50 people who've announced some sort of layer two supposedly backed by BitVM. But almost everything is just like an Ethereum token that people are selling and then they're doing nothing with it. That's all it is. It's just they're selling Ethereum tokens, nothing to do with BitvM except the name. So some of the good actors who are not doing that, Alpen Labs is doing good work. They're creating an implementation of BitVM called Snarknado that is promising and has some cool features. Zerosync is a non scammy company.
Super Testnet [00:44:59]:
They are. They're doing. They're making the bit something called bit VM two.
Car [00:45:03]:
That's Robins, right?
Super Testnet [00:45:04]:
Robin Linus's company.
Car [00:45:05]:
Yes.
Super Testnet [00:45:07]:
A third one is slightly scammy, but mostly not. Is Rootstock. Rootstock is making an implementation of bit vm called BitvM X.
Car [00:45:15]:
They were at bitcoin plus, weren't they, the rootstock guys?
Super Testnet [00:45:18]:
Yes, they were bitcoin plus Plus. I most recently saw them in Prague at Dev hack day, where I did a panel with two of them.
Car [00:45:25]:
You said, why do you say they're slightly scammy for very slightly scammy?
Super Testnet [00:45:28]:
Because they have a token. Way back when they launched rootstock and they created a token called Rif and they like sold it as an ITO pre mined thing.
Car [00:45:37]:
Oh, so they're kind of like stacks then?
Super Testnet [00:45:39]:
They. Well, so this. Not quite, because one nice thing about the rootstock one was you did not have to use it in order to use their network. You could totally just use bitcoin on.
Car [00:45:47]:
Their network without the token.
Super Testnet [00:45:49]:
Without the token, yeah.
Car [00:45:50]:
Oh, so they were just more using the token as a way to fund the project, it sounds like.
Super Testnet [00:45:54]:
Yeah. Which is still scammy, in my opinion.
Car [00:45:56]:
But not pomp invest in that one too. Or was it just stacks?
Super Testnet [00:46:00]:
I don't know who invested in rootstock oh, okay.
Car [00:46:03]:
Well, I could do the research.
Super Testnet [00:46:05]:
Anyway, they don't. They never made it mandatory to use it, and now they're trying to move away from their whole model and towards building, rebuilding everything on bit, the app.
Car [00:46:12]:
So what do they do with the token?
Super Testnet [00:46:15]:
I imagine it's still out there and probably near zero value. And they just kept the money, is my guess.
Car [00:46:20]:
They haven't burned the ETH address or whatever.
Super Testnet [00:46:23]:
I don't know.
Car [00:46:24]:
Oh, so that's why you say. That's why you see it's slightly scary.
Super Testnet [00:46:27]:
Yes. It was a scammy thing to do a long time ago is like, launch an ICO, but at least it wasn't required to use it. So there's some. Yeah, you could kind of say everyone knew that they were just giving money to the company. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think. I wouldn't buy that argument if someone made it.
Car [00:46:43]:
But would you put them on your list?
Super Testnet [00:46:45]:
I didn't know I did. Oh, wow. I'm. Precisely. Because.
Car [00:46:47]:
There you go.
Super Testnet [00:46:48]:
Because they.
Car [00:46:48]:
Well, that just that. I mean, that that's. Yeah. Ends all discussion.
Super Testnet [00:46:53]:
The determinant of what accounts as a good bitcoin company is apparently my good company list.
Car [00:46:58]:
Yeah.
Super Testnet [00:46:59]:
All right.
Car [00:47:00]:
That's awesome. I mean, that anyway, not for them, but.
Super Testnet [00:47:04]:
So some of the best.
Car [00:47:04]:
What's a good. So what are. Okay, so what are the good ones?
Super Testnet [00:47:06]:
Again, just real quick zero sync, alpine labs kind of rootstock, mostly. Mostly good.
Car [00:47:15]:
Mostly good, but checkered past.
Super Testnet [00:47:18]:
Okay. Yeah. So then we get into some of the scammy ones. The first one I want to bring up here is citria citrea.
Car [00:47:23]:
How do you spell that?
Super Testnet [00:47:24]:
C I T R E A.
Car [00:47:26]:
C I t r e a. That sounds scammy.
Super Testnet [00:47:31]:
Okay. They are mostly scammy. They've got. So they're one of the ones that has announced that they have a working implementation of BitVM with support for a roll up. That's the first bitcoin backed roll up. They do not. That's just all lies.
Car [00:47:49]:
They don't have a GitHub that people can go to or. How do you know that? Or. You met them.
Super Testnet [00:47:55]:
Yes, I have met them. I've looked at the work they've produced and it's just not. I will say so they're 90% scammy because they're lying to people and saying they have something they do not. 10% not scammy. They're not selling a token. They're not one of these ones that has launched an Ethereum token and then said it's backed by BitVM when it isn't.
Car [00:48:16]:
Give them a couple months, we'll see.
Super Testnet [00:48:19]:
They did a workshop in Prague which they sponsored the bitcoin pizza day in Prague. And it was a workshop on how to make a bit VM layer two. Right. So I was like, this is going to be awesome. And the only went to it. No, I did not go to it. Someone else went to it, but I didn't go to it. Partly because I think there's pretty much scammers.
Super Testnet [00:48:38]:
But one of the guys who went to it said it was really bad because all they did was they demonstrated how to launch an Ethereum token and they did nothing with bit VM at all.
Car [00:48:47]:
So, dude, this is what I'm saying, man. Like, that's bad cash.
Super Testnet [00:48:51]:
On the other hand. On the other hand, 10% not scammy because they're not selling an Ethereum token. They may have done a workshop on how to launch one, but they're not selling them.
Car [00:49:00]:
Not yet.
Super Testnet [00:49:00]:
Not yet.
Car [00:49:00]:
Give them two months.
Super Testnet [00:49:02]:
And secondly, they, they have contributed to Robin's bit VM code base some good.
Car [00:49:08]:
Really?
Super Testnet [00:49:08]:
Yes. They hired a guy.
Car [00:49:10]:
Wow.
Super Testnet [00:49:11]:
They hired one of the like original guys who was in that or telegram group when we first announced BitVM. They hired one who actually wrote something that. And got it running in it. He wrote, I think he was the guy who wrote like a chess implementation or not just knights chess, where you only have nights pieces on a chessboard.
Car [00:49:26]:
Yeah.
Super Testnet [00:49:26]:
So he like implemented that and made it run on bit VM. And then they hired him. He knows what he's doing and he actually has contributed some good stuff to the bit VM code base. So that's.
Car [00:49:35]:
Wow. Well, maybe consider putting them on your list then.
Super Testnet [00:49:39]:
As long as they keep lying to people, then I'm going to consider them.
Car [00:49:42]:
Oh, so you're. So that list, you should probably add this then, on the list maybe, like it depends on your ethical and moral behavior. Maybe because it sounds like that's more of what you're knocking them off then.
Super Testnet [00:49:54]:
My objection to them is that they raised $8 billion on the basis of the lie that they have a working implementation. 8 billion or million, not billion, okay, million with an m. Oh, so you're more of.
Car [00:50:06]:
They raised $8 million because they have a lot of. They made one commitment to Robin's code.
Super Testnet [00:50:13]:
And announced that they have a working implementation of BiTVM, which they don't. They do not.
Car [00:50:18]:
Have you seen the code? No.
Super Testnet [00:50:21]:
Yes, I've seen the code. They've contributed to Robin's thing.
Car [00:50:25]:
But you haven't seen the code that they have that they say they have.
Super Testnet [00:50:30]:
I've seen part of it. They have a blog post that shows some of the code base for that. For it.
Car [00:50:34]:
It's interesting because I don't think specifically these Fiat VC's have probably even understand the code.
Super Testnet [00:50:41]:
I know, yeah.
Car [00:50:42]:
Cause there's only like, what? Like two or three people in the world that understand BiTVM.
Super Testnet [00:50:45]:
I don't know. Yeah. Well there's more now actually. There's now that there are some legit companies making stuff on it.
Car [00:50:51]:
So there's more?
Super Testnet [00:50:51]:
More. There's probably like 50 people though.
Car [00:50:53]:
So who's verifying all this stuff on the VC side?
Super Testnet [00:50:56]:
I don't think they are yet. I don't think. I don't think the VC's are hiring people to verify.
Car [00:51:02]:
Oh my God.
Super Testnet [00:51:03]:
Blog posts and hype and stuff just.
Car [00:51:05]:
They send out tweets and stuff.
Super Testnet [00:51:07]:
Another one I want to bring up.
Car [00:51:09]:
Gosh, man.
Super Testnet [00:51:10]:
Bit layer has a bit vm token. Sorry? An ethereum token rather, that they claim is backed by BitvM.
Car [00:51:20]:
So this is another one. This is not the same, different risk one.
Super Testnet [00:51:23]:
Citria is Citria.
Car [00:51:24]:
Whatever.
Super Testnet [00:51:25]:
Yeah. Bit layer is another one. Who's doing this? They claim to have a bit, a token backed by bit vm. They do not. They have it. They just have an ethereum token and they are selling it. Wow. Well, but their promise is it will eventually.
Super Testnet [00:51:40]:
So they don't say it is currently backed by BitVM. They say it will.
Car [00:51:43]:
Once we dump on the plebs, then we can go out and hire some people to build bitvM.
Super Testnet [00:51:47]:
They don't say that.
Car [00:51:48]:
I mean, but that's what they're going to do.
Super Testnet [00:51:51]:
They are related to the company that I endorsed earlier, BTC Eden. I think they have the same parent company as them.
Car [00:52:00]:
Oh wow. So the parent company is spinning out this little smaller company to launch the token. That's smart.
Super Testnet [00:52:07]:
I don't know.
Car [00:52:08]:
Wow.
Super Testnet [00:52:08]:
I don't know about that.
Car [00:52:09]:
That's straight out of the Joseph Lubin playbook, Satoshi.
Super Testnet [00:52:11]:
VM is another scam, has an ethereum token, sells it on the basis that it is backed by BitVM, is not backed by BitVM, it's just a lie. BVM is another one. B E V m. I love, I.
Car [00:52:23]:
Love seeing the new type of scamming out there. It's good.
Super Testnet [00:52:26]:
They're all layer two scams now.
Car [00:52:27]:
It's good. A lot of people are going to get hurt this cycle. A lot of people.
Super Testnet [00:52:32]:
Not a fan.
Car [00:52:34]:
So it sounds like the only ones worth are the zerosync, Robin one, Alden Labs, alpine with a. Alpine Labs with a p. And that's it.
Super Testnet [00:52:44]:
Rootstock is maybe rootstock maybe. I think they're going to come out with something good, but, I mean, we.
Car [00:52:48]:
Saw them at bitcoin. Plus, plus, they seem like friendly folks.
Super Testnet [00:52:51]:
They are. They're friendly folks. I think the rootstock thing, I think, is a good idea. I like rootstock. Um, I don't like the RAF token. I think that was a mistake.
Car [00:52:59]:
Yeah, well, there you go.
Super Testnet [00:53:01]:
That's. That's the state of Bitvm.
Car [00:53:03]:
And then, so this particular one, the coin flip one, is just going to be a proof of concept on as far as just bit vm proving that it actually works with one in zero blinded. What did you say?
Super Testnet [00:53:15]:
Commitments.
Car [00:53:15]:
Commitments. Super testnet. You're a mind that knows everything.
Super Testnet [00:53:23]:
No, that's not true.
Car [00:53:24]:
I mean, you know, like, you know all the dirt, like, you know all the stuff that's going on.
Super Testnet [00:53:29]:
I know what's going on in the BiVM space.
Car [00:53:31]:
Yeah. You know a lot. Where do you store this data? What? Where do you just all in your head that you just remember from all.
Super Testnet [00:53:39]:
Stored on Brill Seton's GitHub? You know that.
Car [00:53:44]:
I never asked you this, so this is kind of a random question. Would you ever get, like a bionic arm or, like, would you ever, like, once you can.
Super Testnet [00:53:50]:
If I lost my arm, I would get a bionic.
Car [00:53:51]:
You would? Really?
Super Testnet [00:53:52]:
I wouldn't replace my existing good arm with a robot arm.
Car [00:53:55]:
But would you get, like, if you like, let's say you lost it in a fire or something?
Super Testnet [00:54:00]:
Yeah, you would.
Car [00:54:01]:
But it would allow you to do other really cool things, like, you know, have a phone on there and all this sort of stuff.
Super Testnet [00:54:06]:
Yeah. I would want to be like Samus Aran with the. With a bazooka arm. Yeah. I don't. I don't understand. Like, these companies who make these robotic arms, they show, like, look, it can grip a cup and stuff. I'm like, show me.
Super Testnet [00:54:17]:
It's shooting a missile. Like, exactly, dude.
Car [00:54:20]:
It's cause they're not making them for Americans, they're making them for the communists, you know? Yeah.
Super Testnet [00:54:25]:
Like, not a real missile, but, like rubber band missiles. If you had. If you had an arm cannon that could shoot rubber bands at people, then, I mean, some people would cut off.
Car [00:54:33]:
Their arms for that, literally. That's awesome. Okay, what's the other thing you want to jump into. So we got hedgehog, we talked bitbM, we talked to your workshops, we talked breaking jPegs.
Super Testnet [00:54:47]:
I have a new repository called NCWJs or Nostradamus and WC rather nostrawlet connect js.
Car [00:54:54]:
Where is that? Oh, this one right here. Okay, cool.
Super Testnet [00:54:57]:
So this is, unusually for me, this is a library. This is intended for other people to use.
Car [00:55:01]:
It's a vanilla JavaScript library.
Super Testnet [00:55:02]:
Naturally it is documentation, but no one uses Vanilla JavaScript. I thought other people use it.
Car [00:55:11]:
I thought you were the only guy in the world that uses Vanilla JavaScript.
Super Testnet [00:55:14]:
I'm not the only guy in the world. I don't know anyone else's name. But the nice thing about JavaScript libraries, including vanilla ones, you can just drop them into a node JS project and then use it oh, typescript project, will.
Car [00:55:25]:
It convert it or something? Is that what you're saying?
Super Testnet [00:55:26]:
Actually this one it wouldn't, I shouldn't say that for this one it probably wouldn't work because it uses websockets and you'd need to import a websocket library and then modify the API. Well, you could put instructions, maybe I need to do it, and then give people both, because everyone uses node js these days, or typescript.
Car [00:55:43]:
Do you think you ever move on to that? Or you like being inside vanilla JavaScript?
Super Testnet [00:55:47]:
I definitely like being inside vanilla JavaScript, but I do use node js. Some of my projects are in node js.
Car [00:55:52]:
Okay.
Super Testnet [00:55:54]:
But anyway, this library is designed for other people to use, and you can use it to interact with Nostra Wallet Connect wallets to send and receive payments from them and check the status of incoming and outgoing payments, and you can also use it for zaps. So if you have an app and you want to do zaps on it, it has integrated support for that as well. So you can get a zap from somebody's lightning address, or get an invoice from someone's lightning address and then check its status, check whether it's been paid or not. And that's really useful because on lightning it's hard to find out the status of a payment if you're not the sender, if you're not the person who sent the money, it's hard to know whether it's been paid or not because there's no blockchain to check. But Nostra Wallet Connect gives us a way, or I mean, rather zaps. The zap protocol gives us a way. So I implement it and then you can find out if someone paid your invoice or if someone paid their own invoice or just what happened with the invoice.
Car [00:56:47]:
I'm really excited for the. I know this is not. Or maybe it's related. I don't know. I'm really excited for the Albie wallet that's coming. I am super excited for that.
Super Testnet [00:56:55]:
Yeah, I've been using, like, a self custodial wallet, right?
Car [00:56:58]:
Yeah, I've been using it on graphene, just the web version of it. And it's out. No, but you can turn your. If you have graphene, you can turn your. Or I guess if you have an Android, you can turn your Albie wallet into. I'll show you a web wallet. It's really cool.
Super Testnet [00:57:17]:
Alby has some cool stuff, dude.
Car [00:57:19]:
Yeah. I mean, they're just a killer team, dude. They're just. I've never, like, it's just crazy how fast they go.
Super Testnet [00:57:26]:
They pump it out.
Car [00:57:28]:
Like, I would love to look behind the scenes of how that shit moves, man. It's incredible. It's really. It's inspiring too. At the same time, I've told Moritz this. It's super inspiring to see, but, yeah, see, so you have the Albie. You click that, and then it automatically launches as a wallet. Isn't that cool?
Super Testnet [00:57:45]:
Yeah, it is.
Car [00:57:46]:
And then you can go to apps here. This is just all a web look. It has all the apps inside of Alby. It's such a. It reminds me, I hate to say this is not to confuse people, but it kind of reminds me of wall to Satoshi.
Super Testnet [00:57:59]:
Mm hmm.
Car [00:58:00]:
In a lot of ways.
Super Testnet [00:58:01]:
Yeah, it is. Similar level of gorgeousness.
Car [00:58:04]:
Look how clean that is.
Super Testnet [00:58:05]:
Was very clean. I mean, good job, Albie. Guys. You're rocking it.
Car [00:58:09]:
So would this work with all that kind of stuff? I guess it would. Right? Because it uses Nostra wallet.
Super Testnet [00:58:13]:
Use an oster wallet connect. So you could, if you wanted to, you could use that as the source of funding for a nostalgia wallet connect string. And then you could use that to connect to my. To connect to my hedgehog thing and be an LSP for people.
Car [00:58:25]:
Yeah. So, look, so open agents also runs inside the. Inside the web app. I got stacker news running that runs, too really well.
Super Testnet [00:58:35]:
And then web apps are the best.
Car [00:58:37]:
Even hugging face.
Super Testnet [00:58:38]:
I think I showed you how to. How to run web apps on your old iPhone.
Car [00:58:40]:
No, you did. Yeah, but I don't use iPhone anymore. But look, even hugging face has one. It's an AI thing.
Super Testnet [00:58:46]:
I don't know what a hugging face.
Car [00:58:47]:
Is, but, yeah, I'm waiting for waiting for Cascadia to drop their web app.
Super Testnet [00:58:51]:
Cascada. Come on.
Car [00:58:54]:
But, yeah, it's pretty clean. Anyways, super testnet. I want to talk about one last thing. Let's talk about God. Let's do it. What has been the. What's your routine with that? I'm just curious because I want to know, maybe I can get better. What's your routine every day as far as, like, praying and going to church and confession and all that stuff, like, what's your spiritual routine?
Super Testnet [00:59:22]:
Yeah. So prayer throughout the day is my go to. I really love the book of psalms. I love the wisdom inside of it and the prayers that it contains. I find myself, as far as daily routine, I find myself most. The most amount of prayer I do is just when. When a thought comes to me that I don't want to have, I will say a prayer to get rid of it. It's like, yeah, I say hail Marys throughout the day, trying to get rid of bad thoughts and replace them with good ones, good holy things, Sundays and holy days.
Super Testnet [00:59:58]:
I go to mass. When I was in Prague, I was also doing no meat on Friday because I couldn't find a letter from their bishop's conference with instructions on whether that rule applies in their country or not.
Car [01:00:10]:
Oh, do you respect the rules dependent on.
Super Testnet [01:00:13]:
Yeah, the local bishops create the craft, the rules for the local country on the stuff about, like, canonical requirements.
Car [01:00:21]:
Interesting.
Super Testnet [01:00:22]:
So, the world, the worldwide rule regarding meat on Fridays is like, the one from the Vatican says, you're not supposed to eat meat on Fridays. You're supposed to fast from it. But they say local bishops can make exceptions for their own countries. And, like here in the United States, they've made an exception. They said, you don't have to do it here in the United States. So when I went to Prague, I was like, well, I'm not in the United States anymore. I got to find out what the local rules are. Couldn't find anything.
Super Testnet [01:00:44]:
So I was doing the no meat on Fridays thing, which is hard to do when you don't. When you're not used to it. It's not a habit.
Car [01:00:52]:
Yeah, totally.
Super Testnet [01:00:52]:
I wish our bishops would do that. I wish they would just say, yeah, we're going back to the regular rule. And then I would get in the habit of not eating meat on Fridays.
Car [01:01:00]:
And then. What's your confession cadence? I guess.
Super Testnet [01:01:06]:
I try to do it every time I've mortal sinned, committed immortal sin, so I have to do it soon. I did not do it at all in Prague because I didn't not think that the priests would speak English. So the last time I did confession was when I was in France. They had a priest there who did speak English, so I did a confession.
Car [01:01:27]:
You want to go tomorrow? They have confessions now at St. Mary's, like, right before.
Super Testnet [01:01:30]:
That'd be sweet.
Car [01:01:33]:
What was I going to say? Yeah, I was curious. I don't know if I told you I went on the axe retreat, and, dude, that opened my eyes to a lot more of what I could be doing. And I made friends with the deacon now, so now I can ask him questions.
Super Testnet [01:01:49]:
It's good to have a spiritual mentor.
Car [01:01:51]:
Yeah, for sure.
Super Testnet [01:01:52]:
One thing I really like doing in Prague, in all these countries, I usually don't speak their language, and going to mass is different because I can't understand what they're saying. But one thing that's nice is that the readings are usually, like. They'll tell you what the readings are. So I always, like, go to mass ahead of time, spend time reading the scriptures, reflecting on those. And then I look for, like, when they're during the mass, I will look for words that I read in the Bible. I will listen for them, you know? So I learned a couple of praggish czech words while I was there. Like, dukkah is the word for spirit. And I just learned that because the readings were all about the Holy Spirit, and then the sermon was all about the Holy Spirit.
Car [01:02:28]:
So you just put two and two together.
Super Testnet [01:02:30]:
So it's kind of fun to do that as a. As an exercise, because people there, they were like, I understand you're christian. You're going to church, but you don't even speak the language. What are you doing?
Car [01:02:40]:
Oh, they told you that?
Super Testnet [01:02:41]:
Yeah. And I was just as I told them what I told you. I was like, well, actually, I read the readings. I listen for various words and try and, you know, then I can identify.
Car [01:02:50]:
I think that's. That's the thing that always surprises me. I don't think people realize it's more of a lifestyle than it is, than it is a requirement or something. I think that's. That always shocks me when people say, well, why are you doing this? It's like, this is how I live my life. You know what I mean?
Super Testnet [01:03:06]:
Somewhat, yeah. One of the things I really do admire the virtue of obedience, the obedience to an authority, is if you do something because you want to do it, you get good graces for that. But if you do something even though you don't want to do it, you get even more graces.
Car [01:03:19]:
Totally, dude. 100%.
Super Testnet [01:03:22]:
I like that and want more of that in my life.
Car [01:03:25]:
Yeah, totally. Yeah. No, I was just curious, what was the, what was the one of the most beautiful cathedrals you saw in all your travels here recently?
Super Testnet [01:03:34]:
Actually, I think it was. I went to like a dominican parish in Mexico when I was there. That was quite a while ago now, but that was something I want to do more. Well, I want to do that again.
Car [01:03:49]:
So, dude, at our retreat, they had like a cathedral.
Super Testnet [01:03:53]:
Not a cathedral by dominican, by the way, don't mean Dominican Republic. I mean the religious order the Dominicans founded by St. Dominic in the twelve hundreds. So like a really old group of catholic monks and they had like a church there that was really pretty.
Car [01:04:06]:
So the one that we had a retreat at, they had like a. I don't know which, I guess it was kind of like a, I guess it was not a cathedral, but it was made all made of wood and then it was outside, like on, like on a, you know, the hills in west Texas are kind of large, so we'd have to walk and climb and not climb, but like walk that long path. And then we had, we had mass there. It was beautiful. Dude, I don't think I've ever seen more beautiful setting for mass.
Super Testnet [01:04:34]:
Do you remember when we went to the shrine of Our lady of Guadalupe?
Car [01:04:37]:
Oh yeah, dude, that was inspiring. Yeah, I just, I was, I just fell into a rabbit hole this week. I just found out about the. Our lady of Fatima.
Super Testnet [01:04:46]:
Yeah.
Car [01:04:47]:
Dude, that movie's really good. I don't know if you've seen the Fatima movie.
Super Testnet [01:04:50]:
I have seen it.
Car [01:04:51]:
You have seen it?
Super Testnet [01:04:51]:
It was like, like with die hard. I saw it when I was like twelve.
Car [01:04:54]:
No, no, no, this. They just came out with a new one.
Super Testnet [01:04:56]:
Oh, no, I've not seen the new one.
Car [01:04:57]:
Yeah, they came up with a new one. I think it's on Amazon, but it's, it's really good. Okay. It's like really good. Yeah, it's a wild story. I don't know. Too many people know about it, but they even have video footage of the event who were there that day.
Super Testnet [01:05:09]:
There's like the miracle of the sun dancing in the sky.
Car [01:05:12]:
Isn't that wild?
Super Testnet [01:05:14]:
Yeah, there's like news. There were newspaper reports about it. There's photos of the. Well, you can't really photo the sun dancing, but there's photo of the people looking at the, looking at the sun.
Car [01:05:22]:
And it crashing and all that stuff. It's wild. Anyways.