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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00:00:12:16 - 00:00:17:04
Stacey
Stay tuned for a very, very cool bonus episode of pod Candy.
00:00:17:07 - 00:00:21:04
Stacey
today we're giving you a mash up of some of our favorite clips from past episodes about
killers.
00:00:23:08 - 00:00:33:03
Speaker 1
Outside my window. It's only raining.
00:00:33:05 - 00:00:40:18
Speaker 1
When the wind blows in. I feel pain.
00:00:40:20 - 00:00:45:21
Unknown
And I don't need no doctors.
00:00:45:23 - 00:01:06:13
Speaker 1
Maybe I'm not sick. My body's been lined up. I've broken up cells in every.
00:01:10:00 - 00:01:14:01
Speaker 1
May.
00:01:14:01 - 00:01:23:19
Stacey
In this episode, we're stepping into the rotting farmhouse of one of the most terrifying figures in American true crime history. Ed Gein.
00:01:23:19 - 00:01:26:18
Stacy/Dori
to the people of Plainfield, Wisconsin.
00:01:26:18 - 00:01:50:20
Stacy/Dori
Ed was a quiet, if slightly off handyman. But when police entered his home in 1957, they uncovered a scene straight out of the nightmare poles made from skulls, chairs upholstered in human skin, and the suit stitched together from the flesh of a dead woman that he admitted to wearing
00:01:50:20 - 00:01:54:15
Dori
yum.
00:01:54:17 - 00:02:14:04
Stacey
What drove him to such depravity? The answer, in part, lies with his mother, Augusta, again a fanatically religious woman who preached that women were instruments of the devil. She kept Ed isolated from the world, feeding him guilt, shame and fear like it was Holy Scripture. When she died, something inside him snapped.
00:02:14:06 - 00:02:38:16
Dori
And Ed didn't just kill. He collected most of his gruesome trophies, came not from murder, but from graves he robbed under the cover of night. He wasn't just obsessed with death. He wanted to be someone else entirely. Someone who could bring his mother back. Someone who could silence the demons she planted in him.
00:02:38:18 - 00:02:50:17
Stacey
His crimes shocked the nation and inspired some of the most infamous monsters in pop culture. But the real Ed Gein, he was far more terrifying than any movie villain.
00:02:50:17 - 00:02:55:16
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:02:55:16 - 00:03:11:10
Stacey
you know, this story, first of all, he lived in a farmhouse, with his mother, Augusta, his father, who died earlier on, and his brother Henry, who also died in a fire. Mysterious Lee, I should add, in my opinion.
00:03:11:12 - 00:03:13:04
Dori
And other opinions.
00:03:13:06 - 00:03:32:03
Stacey
And other opinions. When they found Henry after this fire, he had, marks on him that that seemed to appear that he didn't die just from asphyxiation from fire, but also from, you know, murder. Possibly. Possibly. So, as we know, again, only killed
00:03:32:03 - 00:03:47:13
Stacey
that we know of two women. And in my opinion as well, they, they he simulated his mother out of the skin of these women created a human suit that so he could be literally be her.
00:03:47:15 - 00:03:49:05
Stacey
What do you think of that? Dory?
00:03:49:17 - 00:04:12:03
Dori
I think that I would never wear a flesh suit, so I, I I'm going to. Okay. So yes, this this definitely all stems from. And when we bring out the doctor, we can talk to him about this. But, you know, the mother was extremely religious. And really,
00:04:12:03 - 00:04:12:23
Dori
kept
00:04:12:23 - 00:04:16:18
Dori
the two boys from ever socializing.
00:04:16:20 - 00:04:42:22
Dori
You know, women were terrible. You can't have a lot of friends or any friends and really kept them so isolated where Henry, the older brother, went out and started really questioning what was going on. And maybe, like there is a world, but Ed stayed so devout to his mother and she was his wife,
00:04:42:21 - 00:05:19:03
Dori
I also thought for me another controversial statement, but I enjoyed the fact that when his mother died and he went to the cemetery to dig up other ladies, they were age appropriate ladies. They weren't like young dames that he was going after. He was digging up all these women and the two women that he murdered were also older ladies.
00:05:19:05 - 00:05:35:02
Dori
Yeah. Again, obviously the Oedipus mom complex that he has, but with all the Ted Bundy's of the world, I was actually like, oh, I can just it's true. The oldie is good for you.
00:05:35:02 - 00:05:42:24
Stacey
Just he's just a mama's boy at heart. Just. So, so was he in.
00:05:42:24 - 00:05:45:24
Dori
Love with his mom, or did he just.
00:05:46:01 - 00:05:49:22
Stacey
Feel like he needed to be inside of her womb?
00:05:49:24 - 00:06:04:24
Dori
Yeah, it was it. I don't know, I, I mean, honestly, I think probably both. Like, if there's one person that isolated you, you know, and you're the only that's the only person in your life day after day.
00:06:04:23 - 00:06:08:23
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:06:08:23 - 00:06:10:01
Dori
doctor.
00:06:10:03 - 00:06:14:01
Dr. John
Know I've been waiting in the wings here. Should I come in here now?
00:06:14:03 - 00:06:16:13
Stacey
You can come from behind the curtain, doctor.
00:06:16:19 - 00:06:24:23
Dr. John
Thank you for having me back. I was nervous getting fired from this gig here, you know, not that I need another gig in my life, but you don't.
00:06:25:14 - 00:06:46:19
Stacey
I guess a big question for me. And sorry if I'm cutting you off because I have a lot, this might take a second session of us asking you questions, but how did ed how was how was the person able to turn off the gross factor and do these things without feeling, without being nauseated or like, how do you turn that up?
00:06:46:19 - 00:06:56:03
Stacey
How does somebody go into is it like when you're a Nazi and you just do things without thinking, you shoot? I mean, what is that mentality? Two different.
00:06:56:03 - 00:07:21:01
Dr. John
Concepts. You know, we can get into these maybe in some. Yeah. You, because they were following orders. Ed was following right. Own orders and his own view. I if there's one big advance that I have given the field about these killers, it's that the only way we can get to really understand them is we have to get into their world view, which we.
00:07:21:03 - 00:07:40:03
Dr. John
What most sane people would say. It's crazy. But what is crazy? Crazy is defined by social norms. How everybody else behaves. And that answers your question, Stacy. Is it? How could he do that? He saw nothing wrong in doing it.
00:07:40:03 - 00:07:45:01
Dr. John
look at when he was arrested. And he goes, yeah, kind of meek and mild.
00:07:45:01 - 00:07:54:03
Dr. John
Yeah. I mean I did all these things, you know, there was no, you know, anger, hate. And if I can take off for a second, I think that's.
00:07:54:08 - 00:07:55:13
Stacey
That's what I mean.
00:07:55:15 - 00:08:02:13
Dr. John
Yeah, that's a huge part of what you guys are talking about. Is that he didn't do these things with hate.
00:08:02:15 - 00:08:03:01
Stacey
Right?
00:08:03:06 - 00:08:09:05
Dr. John
You know, he did not do it. What we see and, especially, like, spree killers.
00:08:09:04 - 00:08:21:14
Dr. John
there's a whole different big difference between the serial killers and spree killers. The spree killers or, you know, shooters, etc.. They hate. There's something they hate. They hate you.
00:08:21:14 - 00:08:47:15
Dr. John
Manatee. Look at that. Mahogany cabinets. You know, he hated this, executive for and he hated the healthcare system and insurance etc.. Notice the difference between Ed and what he did. He didn't do these things that hate in fact it was almost like they were trophies. And he you know elevated things. So that's key.
00:08:47:15 - 00:09:17:05
Dr. John
We have again it's all about getting into his worldview. And one last thing. And I'll want to get your comments. How can a person do this? We often forget both of you in our audience that at core were animals. You know, if you go through history and this is where history is a great teacher, you know, there's some really brutal things that society did in early England.
00:09:17:05 - 00:09:42:08
Dr. John
I forget the dates, but people would walk around London with knives and swords and randomly a person would just stab another person, often for no reason. We're pretty primitive and Ed is a very primitive guy. But again, it's not. It's animalistic. It's base activity. It's not sophisticated activity. That's where he's not part of the normal.
00:09:42:07 - 00:10:07:05
Dori
But I think that there's also question, you know, you mentioned like the spree versus serial but is again a true serial killer. I don't know if he is because he killed and I don't know what the to be honest. I really don't know like what the difference is. And it was he like was there psychosis was he sketch up like like yeah.
00:10:07:05 - 00:10:17:06
Dori
Was he or did he have he didn't kill before the mother like we said. So what can you talk a little. Yeah I'm like I'm.
00:10:17:06 - 00:10:47:18
Dr. John
Dying to talk about that. I'm dying to talk about that because you brought this up earlier, Dory. And, the question of why did he start to kill after his mother died? Well, I think the death of his mother gave him freedom to do what he did. Now, we always see a progression of violence in these people. So much of the material that we have on Ed doesn't talk about his early years.
00:10:47:20 - 00:11:08:23
Dr. John
I would suspect that he killed animals that we all suspect, especially from all the data we have. He probably killed his brother. And that was a tipping point for him. That was the point where I can do this. And then when mom dies, boom! The the doors are open.
00:11:08:23 - 00:11:10:04
Stacey
Sky is the limit.
00:11:10:06 - 00:11:44:04
Dr. John
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think mom's death was permission more than anything else. And another thing you guys brought up, and I want to get into real quick, before I lose the thought. And that is. Is he psychotic? Yeah, he's a crazy man, no question. And we get that evidence from the brother. I mean, even though we have this absolute, also crazy mom, we have a brother who was relatively, you know, normal as much as we can say.
00:11:44:06 - 00:12:08:01
Dr. John
So there was something going on with Ed, inherently, we call it functional, you know, that there was a mental illness going on, guaranteed. But there's many people out there walking the streets with mental illness and, you know, working and having families, etc., that don't kill. So there's a lot of things that, contribute here.
00:12:08:23 - 00:12:31:17
Dori
I'm gonna say something very controversial. Okay. These photos that they showed in the documentary of of Ed Kane, I thought he was kind of a looker. I'm not going to lie. I was like, this guy's cute. Kind of cute. Not I would not swipe left. I would swipe right.
00:12:34:13 - 00:12:38:13
Speaker 1
May.
00:12:38:13 - 00:12:44:17
Stacey
Today we're looking at the case of Keith Hunter Jespersen, better known as the Happy Face Killer.
00:12:44:19 - 00:12:59:24
Dori
Jespersen was a long haul truck driver who murdered at least eight women between 1990 and 1995. He got the nickname because he signed letters to police and media with a hand-drawn smiley face.
00:12:59:24 - 00:13:13:21
Stacey
His first known victim was Tanya Bennett in Oregon. Another couple falsely confessed to her murder, which frustrated Jespersen enough to start writing anonymous confessions, first on bathroom walls, then in letters.
00:13:13:23 - 00:13:26:14
Dori
Those letters revealed specific details only the killer would know. He wanted to take credit and control the narrative. That need for recognition was a major part of his psychology.
00:13:26:16 - 00:13:36:12
Stacey
His job made him hard to trace. He traveled constantly, and many of his victims were women living on the margins, often not identified for years.
00:13:36:14 - 00:13:49:09
Dori
Jespersen was arrested in 1995 after confessing to the murder of his girlfriend. He eventually admitted to several more killings and is serving multiple life sentences.
00:13:49:11 - 00:13:56:06
Stacey
It's a disturbing case, not just because of the violence, but because of how long he operated before being caught.
00:13:56:08 - 00:14:01:23
Dori
It's a case that reminds us how easily violence can hide in plain sight.
00:14:02:16 - 00:14:06:19
Unknown
They.
00:14:06:23 - 00:14:32:12
Dori
I think that this is the type of thing, and I believe I've said this before, that, keeps me away from going back on dating apps because this is like a dude who was he was very large in stature, but kind of unassuming, right? Like he was. Yeah. Like he wasn't like somebody that was, like, doing a lot in his life.
00:14:32:12 - 00:15:00:01
Dori
He was married for years. He had some kids, but he wasn't like, known for like murdering as a younger, as a younger fella. I'll say fella right. Yeah. So yeah. So like those, these are the type of guys like he's in a bar. He meets these women and they thought he must have some sort of magnetism. I mean, two, he was just cute.
00:15:00:04 - 00:15:02:13
Dori
He was cute. Yeah. When?
00:15:02:15 - 00:15:03:13
Stacey
Yeah.
00:15:03:15 - 00:15:08:07
Dori
What does that say about him, Stacey? Huge shelves, huge feet.
00:15:08:09 - 00:15:09:05
Stacey
Huge. Ugly.
00:15:09:07 - 00:15:11:19
Dori
That's how. Maybe he.
00:15:11:21 - 00:15:13:10
Stacey
I hear where you're going with that, but you.
00:15:13:10 - 00:15:20:09
Dori
Know what I'm saying? Like, women were like, salt. This guy must have some sort of.
00:15:20:11 - 00:15:21:12
Stacey
Mojo.
00:15:21:14 - 00:15:22:20
Dori
Of mojo.
00:15:22:22 - 00:15:37:11
Stacey
Well, you know, he said that he would say, well, she wanted to party. So, you know, you know, we we she wanted a party, you know, so we went out and, you know, I told her twice, you know, not to do that. And, the third time, I just strangled her to.
00:15:37:13 - 00:15:40:08
Dori
Like. Yeah, but it's like, you know.
00:15:40:08 - 00:15:49:15
Stacey
She didn't listen twice, so. And the third time I. I killed her, and then he stepped on her neck, and then he threw her. And,
00:15:49:15 - 00:15:59:19
Stacey
This caused a lot of a lot of pain for a lot of families. And it also felt like Keith was trying to, you know, get his. As they said in the documentary, 15 Minutes of Fame.
00:15:59:19 - 00:16:20:16
Stacey
You know, he's writing this on the bathroom wall as he's tempting people. And it's interesting when something is that obvious and reminds me a little bit of Patrick Bateman in American Psycho. It's like, I'm the killer. Oh no, you're not. You know, it's like that. Like, no, you know, I love that. Like whole storyline of like him trying to confess and having people be like, no, I don't we don't think it.
00:16:20:16 - 00:16:43:22
Stacey
No, no, Paul's living in London, you know, this guy's trying to confess with the smiley face. And yet the confession from the guy still, it was still not solid proof. They do the handwriting analysis later, but you know what I mean? It's like, that's not solid truth, but what takes what kind of person does it take to also want to kind of confess?
00:16:43:22 - 00:16:49:12
Stacey
Like, I don't even know if he was trying to confess. He sounded just, like, messy, just messy.
00:16:49:14 - 00:17:13:16
Dori
I mean, I honestly think we should bring Doctor John in. Yeah, I think it's early. I think it's time because a lot of these, we have so many questions about this. And then he is and this was Doctor John's, suggestion to watch this, to to watch this one. So let's drumroll, please. Let's bring in the doctor.
00:17:13:16 - 00:17:15:06
Dori
The doctor is in.
00:17:15:06 - 00:17:19:24
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:17:19:24 - 00:17:20:19
Stacey
Yeah. Here he is.
00:17:20:19 - 00:17:48:20
Dr. John
Well. Thank you. I'm opening the door from the green room and have been anxious, in particular with this episode to come in because, I so echo Dory, what you're saying about, you know, it's kind of, this is kind of mundane in a way. I don't know if I was enthralled. I think audience be enthralled because this is the type of killers that are out there.
00:17:48:22 - 00:18:12:06
Dr. John
You know what? We get fed by the media and movies is, you know, these sensational, plots and sensational killing and this cat and mouse game of, finding these people. And I think there was another kind of blasé part about this is that this guy kind of just showed up as as you were just saying, oh, I'm the killer.
00:18:12:10 - 00:18:54:14
Dr. John
Hey. Hey, everybody. Killer. But I refute a couple of things. The documentary, kind of highlighted, which I think you both fell into. And that is this whole thing of the fame. I don't think he showed any interest in fame at all, other than he was Dahmer. He was stupid and socially in, you know, in which they say socially inept, you know, with sending a letter to his, high school reunion after he confessed and been proven and sentenced to all these killings, kind of sort of like, gee, remember me?
00:18:54:15 - 00:18:56:19
Dr. John
How come nobody's paying attention? You know,
00:18:57:02 - 00:19:17:15
Dr. John
this is the unique thing about, Mr. Jespersen here in this episode. These women all triggered something in him. Triggered something? If you look at the killings, like the one. I wrote it down here and someone said something about,
00:19:17:15 - 00:19:22:11
Dr. John
don't do this or, you know, I don't want to do it or the all or the one with the.
00:19:22:13 - 00:19:53:00
Dr. John
She wanted 40 more dollars. She was clearly a prostitute. And that triggered something. And each murder triggered something which she acted upon. So you're exactly right there. And I take that back. It was not methodical. It was very spontaneous. And there was the other thing about, you know, this case, which I think is important and maybe different from a lot of the killers and serial killers and mass murderers we talk about is he wasn't a hunter.
00:19:53:02 - 00:20:19:02
Dr. John
He wasn't hunting for to kill. As as, like Ed Gein or someone like that. It just kind of came upon, you know, and most of the time it was a sexual interaction, again, showing his so, social inept, you know, he was in these sexual situations and then something went terribly wrong. And often it was a little thing.
00:20:19:02 - 00:20:35:20
Dr. John
And I'll look up what I wrote down the quote from this one, I think it was from Tanya's and something a key phrase and, and oh, she said, come on, can you just get it over with? And boom, he blew up,
00:20:35:20 - 00:20:40:08
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:20:40:08 - 00:20:56:13
Dori
again. I go, but I think that I'm. And forgive me because I feel like I am kind of just again hell bent on this with the wife. And yes, you're right, like, she probably didn't want to be on this because she's probably just trying to live her life and she doesn't, you know, want to be bothered by this.
00:20:56:15 - 00:21:25:13
Dori
But like, he didn't snap with her and I'm sure and and they did say she would submissives and and all of that. But like, you know, as with your patients or you, you dealing with this a lot like why later in life would he start doing the why would these things trigger him later in life. But he didn't with girlfriends and his wife before that, you know.
00:21:25:15 - 00:21:59:15
Dr. John
Oh, because here's a key fact and it may sound very simplistic or fundamental. I think in his home environment he was controlled. That's why it was also wasn't early on. You know, he whether it was family control, remember he was controlled by a very strict father and maybe an abusive father. And I think being in the family environment and also his own marital environment put some controls on him.
00:21:59:19 - 00:22:22:04
Dr. John
But what where where would did all these murders occur? He was on the road as a truck driver. Three them. I'm not controlled by this umbrella of people that are watching me and I can't do this. That's another key aspect of of this whole case, which I think to me is in an enthralling.
00:22:22:04 - 00:22:27:08
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:22:27:08 - 00:22:56:01
Dr. John
you both talked about that Laverne and John. I can't pronounce his last name. John is the convert that, confessed to the the murders. And what a bizarre situation that was. Laverne delivering to get back at this 18 year old, 18 year younger than her boyfriend. And so she she, frames him for the Happy face murders.
00:22:56:01 - 00:23:03:17
Dr. John
I think that's, you know, bizarre. But she ends up in prison as well. Sort of like. Gotcha.
00:23:03:19 - 00:23:11:14
Dori
He was happy about it. Her daughter was like. She was happy that she was protected. Yeah, so that the boyfriend couldn't hurt her anymore.
00:23:11:14 - 00:23:16:15
Dr. John
Wow. That was, an interesting twist to this whole thing.
00:23:16:15 - 00:23:31:22
Dr. John
And then, the other thing I thought was, I don't know how both of you reacted to this. I'm curious. They showed Laverne getting out of prison, you know, and everybody's happy and hugging her and all this, and. And there's this. I don't know, something hit me strange about that.
00:23:31:22 - 00:23:49:09
Dr. John
If your relative who gets out of prison after X number of years or decades and coming out of jail, you know, you it just seems so loving and embracing. I don't know, maybe that says something about me. I think I'd be a little more standoffish.
00:23:49:11 - 00:24:03:12
Dori
Yeah. Wait a second. I think we need to do this. I think, Stacey, we need to be the doctors. Wait a second. You're saying that Laverne and her loved ones were too loving.
00:24:03:16 - 00:24:07:03
Dr. John
In her own death? Laverne was you.
00:24:07:05 - 00:24:21:24
Dori
Was too hugging with them. Whereas if you just got out of prison, you would be like, what? To your wife and to your kids? Heck, paws off everybody I just got out of.
00:24:22:02 - 00:24:24:18
Dr. John
I think I, I forget time alone.
00:24:24:21 - 00:24:26:13
Dori
I need some time to myself.
00:24:26:13 - 00:24:37:18
Dr. John
Yeah, I think I would, I think I'd be a little shy and like, in the. Am I really accepted here? But you came out of prison bursting out, and everybody's hugging and kissing her. Yeah.
00:24:37:20 - 00:24:38:19
Stacey
Interesting.
00:24:38:21 - 00:24:39:12
Dr. John
I, I.
00:24:39:12 - 00:24:44:02
Stacey
I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm sort of on the fence. I mean, maybe she smelled bad, I don't know.
00:24:44:04 - 00:24:46:05
Dr. John
Yeah, right, I don't know. Could have been.
00:24:46:07 - 00:24:59:05
Dori
I my family would be very happy to see me and my friends and I would be very happy as well. So the fact that both of you pondered this is actually shocking to me.
00:24:59:07 - 00:24:59:23
Dr. John
I just.
00:25:00:00 - 00:25:00:13
Stacey
I really.
00:25:00:13 - 00:25:11:03
Dr. John
Want somebody, you know, I story a few now that I, you know, know you and consider you a friend. I'll be there when you get out of prison, but.
00:25:11:05 - 00:25:11:19
Stacey
I'm not going to.
00:25:11:19 - 00:25:15:04
Dr. John
Hug you. I'm not going to be hugging you real tight. I'm sorry.
00:25:17:23 - 00:25:21:23
Speaker 1
May.
00:25:21:23 - 00:25:29:13
Stacey
Eileen or Libor notes, was a sex worker who murdered seven men in Florida between 1989 and 1990,
00:25:29:13 - 00:25:36:05
Stacey
claiming each killing was an act of self-defense against clients who had assaulted or attempted to rape her.
00:25:36:07 - 00:25:59:10
Stacey
Born into poverty, abandonment and abuse, Warren Ellis lived a transient life marked by violence and survival on society's margins. Her crimes, arrest and trial drew intense media attention, framing her alternately as a cold blooded killer and a victim of lifelong exploitation. In 2002, she was executed by lethal injection,
00:25:59:10 - 00:26:01:19
Stacey
but her story continues to raise questions
00:26:01:19 - 00:26:02:00
Stacey
about
00:26:02:00 - 00:26:08:20
Stacey
trauma, gender justice, and the way society decides who is beyond redemption.
00:26:08:20 - 00:26:16:14
Stacey
Netflix's new documentary revisits one of the most notorious names in American crime. Eileen Gore knows.
00:26:16:19 - 00:26:25:12
Dori
A woman whose story has been twisted and retold for decades. From mug shots and headlines to the word monster.
00:26:25:19 - 00:26:39:23
Stacey
But this series strips away the mythology. It forces us to look at the person beneath the crimes, a life built on abandonment, abuse, and survival. A child discarded long before the murders ever began.
00:26:40:05 - 00:26:50:09
Dori
It asks uncomfortable questions. What creates someone like Eileen? How much of her story is choice and how much is circumstance?
00:26:50:15 - 00:27:02:20
Stacey
Because this isn't just about the violence she committed. It's about the violence she endured, about the cycle that never seems to end for women. Society decides are unworthy of empathy.
00:27:02:22 - 00:27:11:18
Dori
It's a story about power, pain, and the thin, shifting line between victim and predator.
00:27:11:20 - 00:27:15:15
Stacey
This is Eileen, Queen of the serial killers.
00:27:15:15 - 00:27:20:06
Unknown
They.
00:27:20:06 - 00:27:44:04
Stacey
the documentary we watched. I felt very I felt very sorry for her. And I am not, saying what she did was okay or right or good. Taking somebody's life, taking somebody's husband, partner, father, brother, whatever away from them is not obviously not the right answer. But this woman had no chance. No chance?
00:27:44:06 - 00:28:26:15
Dori
Yeah, I think you I think I, I think I texted you right after I watched it and I expressed the exact same sentiment. I feel bad for her. It's, you know, somebody who has lived a life where they have been abused their whole entire lives, by men, by women, and really, really difficult abuse, like, difficult sexual, obviously mental abuse too, but really, it sounded like, really strong, like physical abuse.
00:28:27:06 - 00:29:01:22
Speaker 2
So when I was little, I was adopted by my grandmother. Grandfather. My grandmother was really clean and decent. Did not swear. Did not drink. She was into Jesus Christ. Grandfather was a sergeant in World War II who he was very stringent, but he was not nasty. Very decent moral upbringing.
00:29:03:00 - 00:29:35:00
Speaker 2
At around probably 14, my grandmother died from the source of the liver. I always miss her, and I always love her. At around 15, I ran away from home. I got caught, went to Adrian's training school for six months. When I got out, I hit that road and I split from the state on the road 24 seven for four years, nonstop.
00:29:40:14 - 00:29:47:16
Speaker 2
I must have been raped, I'd say, about. 30 times, maybe more.
00:29:48:19 - 00:29:54:19
Speaker 2
I was gang raped twice when I was kid by my high school friends. My high school friends, man
00:30:00:09 - 00:30:14:04
Dori
Not condoning that. You should be murdering people, but I got it. Like, the system really failed. Her life failed this woman. And,
00:30:14:04 - 00:30:19:09
Dori
and and I think we should both say, like, this was not my favorite documentary. I think you agree with that, right?
00:30:19:09 - 00:30:21:04
Dori
Like, that's the way that it was made.
00:30:21:04 - 00:30:23:00
Dori
It was just it's it.
00:30:23:00 - 00:30:32:01
Stacey
I couldn't tell if all those clips were actually Aileen Wuornos. Yeah. And and, you know, and, Ty.
00:30:32:03 - 00:30:33:03
Dori
Theresa, a lover.
00:30:33:06 - 00:30:40:14
Stacey
Girlfriend, her lover. I couldn't tell. And I was like, why are they doing all this juxtaposed thing that there was, like talking over talking
00:30:40:14 - 00:30:44:04
Dori
It was all very happy. It was happy. Hard to follow.
00:30:44:04 - 00:30:45:09
Dori
But I think that
00:30:45:09 - 00:30:55:24
Dori
the reason why I feel like maybe like compassion towards her is when,
00:30:55:24 - 00:31:06:18
Dori
you know, she went through this trial and it was obvious with the, the prosecutor that he was just out to get her.
00:31:06:18 - 00:31:31:20
Dori
And then he was running for office, and there was no true, like, listening to her like, this is like he didn't he didn't allow the evidence, all the evidence to be supported, that she was attacked, that she, you know, that the that one of the guys, like, was raping her
00:31:32:08 - 00:31:38:05
Dori
Maybe the doctor has some answers. Should we bring them in? I don't, yeah, let's bring them in. Let's see.
00:31:38:05 - 00:31:42:00
Stacey
Oh, you know what? He's vacuuming right now. Should we not interrupt him?
00:31:42:00 - 00:31:47:00
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:31:47:00 - 00:31:48:05
Dori
duct.
00:31:48:07 - 00:31:55:07
Dr. John
Yes. You're exactly right. You need to clean this green room because it's getting kind of stifling in here.
00:31:55:09 - 00:31:56:09
Stacey
Yeah. I bet.
00:31:56:11 - 00:31:58:22
Dr. John
Thank you for letting me out a little early here.
00:31:58:24 - 00:32:02:15
Dori
Stacy and I are giving you big applause.
00:32:02:17 - 00:32:04:07
Stacey
Yes. Stack your job with.
00:32:04:08 - 00:32:08:18
Dr. John
The slow clap. I get the slow clap coming out.
00:32:08:20 - 00:32:09:21
Stacey
It reminds me of that.
00:32:09:21 - 00:32:34:08
Dr. John
I have to say, on this whole thing. And by the way, I want to emphasize, as I always do, you know, a little commentary on the documentary and the end. This was not a well made documentary. I agree with both of what you said. It was that Stacy, one of the things I'm watching and I'm going, why are they putting these images of lesbian girls frolicking on the beach?
00:32:34:08 - 00:33:07:19
Dr. John
Was that, Lee and Ty or. But it didn't look like, it was confusing. And then some of the characters that are introduced are introduced so quick. Which are these friends and not really explained really well. And you're exactly right. These friends, appeared and towards the end, and it almost made it almost the end documentary almost made it seem like these friends were creating a Coachella festival out of all of the her execution day.
00:33:07:19 - 00:33:55:24
Dr. John
And they're laughing and and reminiscing, but reminiscing, not with sadness, kind of laughing and joking in a hotel room about the execution and about, Eileen Lee. And it just seemed bizarre without any explanation. But you know what? The other thing I have to say to both of you, it really highlights our job here on unpaid Candy, of giving a little more background and insight into a case like this, because the documentary felt very short and these things I would have loved to seen more about her childhood, which I'm going to comment on, etc. and this whole bizarreness of Arlene, prom.
00:33:56:00 - 00:33:57:21
Dr. John
Is that how you pronouncing her name stays?
00:33:57:23 - 00:33:58:21
Stacey
I think so, yeah.
00:33:59:01 - 00:34:04:12
Dr. John
A adopts Lee while she's in prison or.
00:34:04:12 - 00:34:05:15
Stacey
On death row.
00:34:05:17 - 00:34:14:17
Dr. John
And death row. Already convicted in this woman adopts or is a child. And then it's to me same bizarre.
00:34:14:23 - 00:34:19:22
Dori
Right, that Eileen's an adult, but she adopts her as her own child.
00:34:19:24 - 00:34:45:15
Dr. John
Bizarre, bizarre. I can't tell you how many cases I've been involved in where people adopt. Let's say a preteen or a teen who are delinquents and criminals, and I just shake my hand and go, do you realize what you're up for in adopting a person with a history like this? In this, Arlene jumps in and adopts, Lee.
00:34:45:17 - 00:35:14:22
Dr. John
It's just craziness. And I think Stacy hit it on the head. There was some concept in this person's mind that she was going to bring her in to Jesus and save her soul, but it hit the, I think, the same effect of these people who marry people who are in prison and, you know, these killers. I think she was, a fan of the others somehow and just wanted to get close to to Lee in this way.
00:35:15:01 - 00:35:18:10
Stacey
It's a fascination. It's like, you know, people that wanted to marry Dahmer,
00:35:18:19 - 00:35:51:14
Dr. John
My overall comments were instructive. Comments or Lee was really a feral person, you know, a person that was, I think, a very important point that was made very, very briefly was she was abandoned at six months old by her mother, and the grandmother found her in an attic in squalor and with bugs on her and dirty, and then began to raise her.
00:35:51:16 - 00:36:13:21
Dr. John
So we have an individual here, Lee, who is just treated like trash from birth. You know, she was put in an attic. You might as well put her in the garbage can and forget about her. So what happens then to a person like that? Well, a person grows up and becomes trash. You know, she had, And people survive that.
00:36:13:22 - 00:36:45:19
Dr. John
People, can even, I don't want to say thrive, but have a life after that. Especially when these grandparents were purported to be good people. And, you know, they didn't abuse her. But she then her life just gets this horrible, bad lot of she's raped by peers and middle school raped repeatedly. She reports that she was raped by the time she was 17, 30 times,
00:36:45:19 - 00:37:00:11
Dr. John
And so we have a person who is not evil, but is just, you know, doesn't know any other life. But being like this, this feral individual, almost animalistic in a way,
00:37:00:15 - 00:37:23:09
Stacey
nobody cared about her truth. Nobody cared about the rape? No. You know what I mean? And she was like a person alone on an island. I felt. I don't think she had any chance because of where she came from, who she was. Men, especially, especially white men, hated her. They just wanted her off the earth. I am completely in agreement with you, Dory.
00:37:23:09 - 00:37:41:15
Stacey
I am not a, proponent of the death penalty. I don't understand. You know, here's the thing. People do horrible things, and, you know, somebody did anything. God forbid somebody in my family, I might want them to, you know,
00:37:41:15 - 00:37:43:07
Stacey
There's been times when people have
00:37:43:07 - 00:37:47:11
Stacey
gone to death and not been guilty, like the Rosenbergs.
00:37:47:12 - 00:38:04:03
Stacey
Like I know that's, you know, that's, far away from now, but, you know, a long time ago. But I just think it's too iffy. And I also think it's not a punishment for the person as much as it is for the. I don't know how that is a punishment. Well, let me, I don't know, explain it to me.
00:38:04:03 - 00:38:45:01
Dr. John
Explain it. Can I jump in with a true story? I evaluated a person on death row some years ago and my analysis, my evaluation was the following. This poor guy who was young man, he was in his 20s, didn't have the intelligence level. I actually gave him some intelligence quick intelligence test to judges. Intelligence level didn't have the intelligence level to commit the crimes that he he was a serial killer and commit the crimes that he was convicted of.
00:38:45:03 - 00:39:27:11
Dr. John
They were elaborate. They took planning, which a person who has a challenged intellect, we used to call them retarded, but that's. We don't call them that anymore. Officially, of low intellect. One of the deficits they have is they can't plan or string, events along. And this guy, the the, the his killings were elaborate and the whole thing had an air of him being set up because a couple of the people that he was accused of killing were FBI informants and the drug trade
00:39:27:11 - 00:39:48:18
Dr. John
So I can't I don't want to tell too much about this case. I don't know if I'm allowed to, but here's the here's the deal. I gave an analysis. Then there's there's no way that this guy committed these crimes. He doesn't have the the brain wherewithal. He was executed.
00:39:51:08 - 00:39:55:11
Speaker 1
May.
00:39:55:11 - 00:39:57:12
Stacey/Dori
The Perfect Neighbor on Netflix
00:39:57:12 - 00:40:18:13
Stacey/Dori
looks at the real case from Ocala, Florida, involving Azucar AJ Owens and her neighbor Susan Lawrence. The documentary lays out how tensions built over routine issues. Complaints about noise, kids playing nearby, and repeated disputes that escalated over time.
00:40:18:15 - 00:40:42:22
Stacey/Dori
Police records, body cam footage and 911 calls show how many times authorities were contacted before anything violent happened. And then on June 2nd, 2023, Lauren fired a shot through her locked front door, killing Owens, a moment caught only through the aftermath on police cameras and witness accounts.
00:40:42:22 - 00:41:01:08
Stacey/Dori
The documentary relies almost entirely on real documentation, letting the footage and official reports show how the situation spiraled and ultimately Lawrence was convicted of manslaughter. A devastating end to a conflict that never should have reached that level.
00:41:01:08 - 00:41:11:07
Stacey/Dori
The documentary examines the warning signs, the conflict's escalation, and the legal consequences that followed.
00:41:15:06 - 00:41:21:14
Stacey/Dori
Really, Stacy, like this is on you, I think brought to our attention.
00:41:21:14 - 00:41:42:01
Stacey/Dori
I had seen it on Netflix, but it was one of those that I was like, I don't know if I'm going to watch it. And then you mentioned it and it was really difficult to get through. It was really difficult to watch. So, you know, for our audience who may or may not have watched The Perfect Neighbor on Netflix, it's a one off.
00:41:42:01 - 00:42:10:15
Stacey/Dori
It's like a one hour and a half, and it's extremely detailed because they have actual footage, of the events that happened in this little kind of community of homes with a big park in front where kids would go outside and play. And when we're talking about playing, we're saying playing football, wrestling, racing each other, playing hide and go seek, tag children's games that we all wish our kids would go outside and do now.
00:42:10:17 - 00:42:31:12
Stacey/Dori
I mean, if I, my kids was that we're outside in the park playing football for three hours and they're going to make noise. They're children. But these were children who were not badly behaved, and they weren't, you know, causing I mean, maybe they did a ding dong ditch. I mean, who didn't? But seriously, this woman who lived there would not.
00:42:31:12 - 00:42:54:13
Stacey/Dori
Susan would not let it go. She would not let it go. Yeah. She wouldn't. Okay. So I'm going to say probably something controversial here. That's fine. That's what we're doing this for. Yeah. And it's not like obviously the ending was that the the like. Wait, you're not going to say that Susan is hot. Yeah okay. So that would be great.
00:42:54:13 - 00:43:09:22
Stacey/Dori
That would that would didn't even cross my mind but honestly think I do not think that however that is a good controversial statement. So what I was going to say is so, I mean, I don't have children, but I don't think
00:43:09:22 - 00:43:24:19
Stacey/Dori
that the, the comment that I'm going to make really pertains to that. However, I have lived in a multi-unit condo building for a very long time, and this was like freestanding homes.
00:43:24:19 - 00:43:27:16
Stacey/Dori
But.
00:43:27:18 - 00:44:07:14
Stacey/Dori
I would be annoyed if kids, if anybody was constantly making noise, constantly antagonizing me constantly when I am like, okay, this is my home, this is my land. I guess, you know, whatever the property lines were, and they kept crossing that, right? So I'm not saying that I would ever shoot anybody and that like disgusting. But I do blame as I'm I believe you do to the police.
00:44:07:16 - 00:44:40:08
Stacey/Dori
This was a woman who was at her wits end the Susan Lawrence. She kept calling and calling. I had neighbors myself who lived below me, at a previous residence who were drug addicts, and they were very into sex parties. And for two and a half years, I lived in hell. I heard them at all hours of the night.
00:44:40:08 - 00:45:08:16
Stacey/Dori
They were beating each other up. They were always having parties and I did not know what to do. I contacted the police. I kept telling my board. Eventually I sold the home and left, which comes to question why Susan didn't just get out of there. So so react to some of this. But these are the things like from my personal view, I get Susan's side.
00:45:08:16 - 00:45:33:07
Stacey/Dori
I don't condone at all her shooting anybody, but she should have maybe gotten some help from the police so that it didn't escalate to this. Yeah. You know, there was a lot of, okay, I hear you and I have had experiences in my life where I've lived in condos or units, apartment units, where there's been tons of noise up and below and side to side and parties late.
00:45:33:07 - 00:45:56:18
Stacey/Dori
And my son complains of, you know, there's a frat house next to his dorm and it's loud. And when you're trying to sleep, it really sucks. You know, it's almost as bad as your husband snoring. I don't have a husband. So anyway, I. I understand her frustration. The cops came this is the part that I agree with you on about the cops.
00:45:56:20 - 00:46:14:14
Stacey/Dori
The cops kept coming and coming. They talked to AJ and and all the families with the children that lived in the in the area. The little, let's call it a cul de sac area where there's a bunch of homes and then a common area with a park across the street, and everybody has this little courtyard.
00:46:14:14 - 00:46:46:04
Stacey/Dori
So the thing that's disturbing about it is we're dealing with, you know, not drug addicts. And I'm not negating what you're saying. I agree with you. I've had this experience. Drug addicts and, you know, hookers and, fighting. Just kids playing. And, yes, they should have figured out, maybe compromised and figured out, you know, the kids will play from 1 to 3, and then you'll have a break, and they won't be out there after hours screaming and all that stuff, but nothing, you know, everything was so disjointed.
00:46:46:04 - 00:47:08:23
Stacey/Dori
And the cops came and they would talk to this child and talk to her and talk to the side. The thing I'm not understanding is, why didn't they recognize that this Susan woman was getting really mad and getting sort of she was a little off, you know, it wasn't a normal woman. Not normal. And I don't like she seemed just a little bit unhinged.
00:47:09:00 - 00:47:18:10
Stacey/Dori
And the way she was responding and swearing at them and that stuff was that just got ugly. So that's the part that I do think the cops failed at.
00:47:18:17 - 00:47:26:03
Stacey/Dori
I really I'm very curious to hear. What, the doctor in the green room, has.
00:47:26:03 - 00:47:46:07
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, about a lot of this, because so am I. I think he can really shed some light on maybe both perspectives and just from a, you know, a psychological angle. Yeah. Side of things. So I think he's on the ground right now crawling around looking for a cookie.
00:47:46:07 - 00:47:51:11
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:47:51:11 - 00:47:52:21
Stacey/Dori
Doctor, are you there?
00:47:53:00 - 00:47:53:12
Dr John
I'm at.
00:47:53:12 - 00:47:54:03
Stacey/Dori
Their door.
00:47:54:03 - 00:47:59:22
Dr John
As we speak because, do you provide any heat in the screen room? It's cold as hell. No.
00:47:59:24 - 00:48:03:08
Stacey/Dori
No, we have some space heaters. We'll bring them in next time. Sorry about that.
00:48:03:08 - 00:48:33:07
Dr John
I'll tell you then. Besides this topic, which is, you know, exciting and and incredible. You know, I always like to start by commenting on the, the documentary itself. And interestingly, production in in the sense is Stacy said it was like almost exclusively, I think maybe exclusively the body cams of the police. And then of course, the video running in the police.
00:48:33:09 - 00:49:08:00
Dr John
Station where there, you know, him interrogating, Susan Lawrence. So very interesting. But again, here's where we come in because there is no explanations. There is no understanding of what was going on. So here's where pod candy comes into, our, our contribution here because let's talk about what the heck was going on here. And I like Dory's point to, you know, about the noise and the kids and how aggravating it is.
00:49:08:00 - 00:49:30:11
Dr John
I think we've all lived in situations where, you know, somebody or somebody else was making noise. And I have to say, it also revealed to you both, you may not know this, but I kind of grew up in an area like that in the in the inner city of Chicago. We played on the streets. It was a predominantly African-American community.
00:49:30:13 - 00:49:57:21
Dr John
And, I also had a neighbor like Susan Lawrence. I'm going to change his name and let's call him Joe. And he was a neighbor that just was obsessed with his grass. And if you could see his grass, you'd you'd joke because it wasn't grass. Like you see in a suburban, suburban home. There is a splotches of barrenness.
00:49:57:23 - 00:50:18:21
Dr John
The grass mostly was like, it was it was hideous. But he he would tend to his grass. And when we missed the ball, whether it be a baseball, football, soccer ball and it went on his grass out of nowhere, this guy would come out and scream at us and he would even take our balls and confiscate them.
00:50:18:23 - 00:50:53:23
Dr John
But here's the interesting thing, which I think it points out with both of you were talking about, he was, a total pain in the ass to us. What? There's a couple things to say about this which pertains to the documentary. One is that his tactics, like Susan's, only just made things worse because what did we do? We just, you know, when our ball went on this guy's grass, we would kind of jump on the grass or just kick his grass to make it worse and, and stick our tongue out at his house and said, you know what kids do, right?
00:50:53:23 - 00:51:16:00
Dr John
And the kids did pull pranks on her like, they, you know, I think this whole thing of leaving the skates or throwing the skates by her door put trying to put the dog in the her bed of her truck, they they again. But but it was exacerbated by Susan's actions. This is what kids do when an adult is poking the bear.
00:51:16:00 - 00:51:26:03
Dr John
Some kid once again, kids are going to do this. I also agree that the parents probably could have been stronger, as Stacy was saying.
00:51:26:03 - 00:51:32:22
Dr John
with, you know, controlling the, you know, leave the lady alone. Yeah. This is this. Yeah. We're getting off.
00:51:32:22 - 00:51:52:06
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. At a certain point, it gets annoying and obnoxious, which I, I agree, I totally agree with you, Dory. I mean, it's, it's it's almost like you get this rage when you're being not able to fall asleep and you're not able to concentrate because I have that in my regular, like now even it's not so great. The falling asleep though too.
00:51:52:07 - 00:52:20:23
Stacey/Dori
It is a constant. It was, yeah, I think I related a little more because it was like a constant, like, you know, an antagonist antagonizing of somebody. Like, we know this person doesn't want us to be here or anywhere around her. But you know what? Yep. We're gonna play around with it. So again, I'm not condoning at all what she did, but any violence, right.
00:52:20:24 - 00:53:04:16
Stacey/Dori
And John, maybe your, the neighbor guy two with the bad lawn that never wanted you around it. It sounds like these are, like, very tightly wound people. Right. That may be, people that do live alone. And again, I can I because I'm the same way I live alone, I like, I like control of things. So that's why I think I saw it in a way that I did, again, not condoning the, the, the murder, but I understand where Susan Lawrence was coming from.
00:53:04:18 - 00:53:18:04
Stacey/Dori
They every she just should be. She should have been left alone. She was never going to be happy when people were constantly antagonizing her. So just leave her alone.
00:53:18:04 - 00:53:23:05
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:53:23:05 - 00:53:25:18
Stacey/Dori
I have the question about the stand Your Ground laws.
00:53:25:18 - 00:53:31:02
Stacey/Dori
What does that mean? Like, they weren't, like, going at it with, like, the the mother.
00:53:31:02 - 00:53:57:24
Stacey/Dori
AJ was outside and Susan thought what from her perspective that they were going to come in and hurt her and she just shot through the closed door. So is that stand your ground. And and it's only is it only in Florida? Is this a lot? I guess it's like a rare law, though, right? It's not everywhere.
00:53:58:03 - 00:54:00:21
Dr John
It's not it's not that rare. There's many.
00:54:00:21 - 00:54:07:23
Stacey/Dori
You're looking it up during this. I am, okay. It's about half of the United States that have it.
00:54:07:23 - 00:54:23:14
Dr John
Yeah. And here's, here's what it is, is that if someone is on your property, you have the right to defend yourself. And it would be self-defense if you feel threatened by somebody who comes onto your property.
00:54:23:16 - 00:54:25:01
Stacey/Dori
Gotcha.
00:54:25:03 - 00:54:48:09
Dr John
And but interestingly enough, audience, what the police drew out of Susan is that she was looking up this law days before this shooting took place. So she knew that she could, do, you know, do this attack somebody who is on their property?
00:54:48:13 - 00:54:50:08
Stacey/Dori
It is premeditated.
00:54:50:10 - 00:54:51:04
Dr John
Yes.
00:54:51:06 - 00:54:57:07
Stacey/Dori
Yes, it was premeditated. I forgot about that. Yeah. So she didn't. And she thought it was killing that.
00:54:57:09 - 00:54:57:15
Dr John
Yeah.
00:54:57:16 - 00:54:59:22
Stacey/Dori
There was. Why does she have a gun?
00:54:59:24 - 00:55:23:24
Dr John
Two guns. Crazy. Well, it's that's our, you know, our gun laws and and people are people are fearful. I have a, I have a patient in Texas who a woman she was single for a long time. Now she she's got a partner, but she carried a gun in her purse. So all around Texas because she was just fearful of, the world.
00:55:24:01 - 00:55:26:23
Dr John
You know, people are afraid. People are afraid. And
00:55:26:23 - 00:55:44:20
Dr John
in the world. And so, Susan, Susan had two guns and, you know, and wasn't it poignant with a little boy at the day, the night of the shooting? So start screaming. This is why guns are bad. I don't know if you heard that. It was very, but it was a do.
00:55:44:23 - 00:56:04:24
Stacey/Dori
Everything about that little boy. I just wanted to embrace him. I was like, thinking, how can I find out how to give him, like, college money? Yeah, because I just want him to be. He just seemed so, I don't know, there was a something about him that was just so vulnerable and and open and.
00:56:05:01 - 00:56:21:05
Dr John
Which which brings me to another statement that, the Reverend Sharpton mentioned in his eulogy. He said, you know, be fantastic, be wonderful in your life because this is the legacy of what your mom wanted.
00:56:23:09 - 00:56:41:07
Speaker 4
The love that it happened over on this car. And when I'm strong, she could have me do other.
00:56:41:13 - 00:56:43:17
Speaker 2
Well, some.
00:56:43:17 - 00:57:03:02
Speaker 2
mama. When to die. The one for me. No. Mama chose to stand up for you. Because mama knew if she allowed people to degrade you. And she'd not stand up for you, that you grow up with a feeling that you were something that could be degraded.
00:57:03:04 - 00:57:11:16
Unknown
She chose you over her. That's what mothers do.
00:57:11:18 - 00:57:12:00
Unknown
Is I.
00:57:12:00 - 00:57:16:19
Speaker 2
Want you to go and be everything she wanted you to.
00:57:16:19 - 00:57:20:18
Unknown
Be. I
00:57:20:18 - 00:57:31:09
Dr John
And so, like you said, you know, I hope that a little boy is a success in life and, and can use this to, you know, motivate himself and to be a success.
00:57:31:09 - 00:57:36:06
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:57:36:14 - 00:57:58:17
Dr John
By the way, on this, this whole issue of, stand your ground. We had an episode of this in our own area. Everyone, I don't know if you both heard the story of the cleaning lady who went to the house, the wrong house, and was shot and killed. I do. Here we have the story for just to explain to our audience.
00:57:58:19 - 00:58:28:18
Dr John
A Hispanic cleaning lady and her husband. She got the wrong address for a new client of hers for her cleaning service, and she rang the doorbell of an individual. I think that was in northern Indiana. And, the homeowner shot her, fell into her husband's arms, and died, because she, she doorbell at the wrong address.
00:58:28:20 - 00:59:05:09
Stacey/Dori
So that because you said like that, that she was Hispanic. So. And with this, you know, documentary as well, it was, you know, a black community where a couple of white people were there. Do you think that in, Susan said it was racially motivated? I know that they talked. I know when they the parents and the kids kept calling her a Karen, which, you know, we all know that means do you do you guys feel that this was,
00:59:05:11 - 00:59:07:22
Stacey/Dori
Because I really don't know. I really don't know.
00:59:08:00 - 00:59:22:18
Dr John
I do, I do, throughout the whole documentary, even from the very beginning of the first calls, the neighbors said that Karen used the N-word vigorously.
00:59:22:20 - 00:59:39:15
Stacey/Dori
And I wanted to say that I think she was I this is my opinion. So her name is Susan. I kept calling her Karen, so I just wanted to get right. She's a Karen. Yeah, she's Karen wasn't right, which is a term for, like, an annoying white. Yeah. Woman
00:59:39:15 - 00:59:46:22
Stacey/Dori
I do think that her her sense of entitlement over these people was was obvious.
00:59:46:22 - 01:00:12:08
Stacey/Dori
I feel that her anger, like, if they had been. And I don't think I think every person is equal. Okay. But if they had been her equals white people that had a lot of money or something, would she have been as free to complain and do all these things? Or did she feel that she had the entitlement because of her race, which I don't agree with?
01:00:12:08 - 01:00:14:24
Stacey/Dori
I'm just saying. Is that a possibility?
01:00:15:01 - 01:00:43:10
Dr John
The one momentary little glimpse of insight or explanation that the documentary gave us was at the very end in the, a written, you know, statement at the end saying, and they wrote it down. White people are more likely to be successful in self-defense claims when they use the stand the ground laws to attack a black person.
01:00:43:12 - 01:00:45:01
Dr John
Interesting.
01:00:45:03 - 01:00:46:22
Stacey/Dori
Yes. Jesus Christ.
01:00:47:03 - 01:01:04:11
Dr John
The other the other steps they wrote was that since the initiation of the Stand Your Ground laws, they've been linked to an increase from 8 to 11% increase in homicides around the United States.
01:01:04:13 - 01:01:09:19
Stacey/Dori
I think it's a terrible idea. I think it's giving people permission.
01:01:09:21 - 01:01:10:18
Dr John
Yeah.
01:01:10:20 - 01:01:31:08
Stacey/Dori
And people, you know, like, isn't this country about, you know, uniting it now? We're just shooting people because they look different or they come to our door. They're at the wrong place. How about not opening the door? Yeah. How about how about opening the door crack and saying, so somebody comes to my door and I don't recognize them, and I know that there's somebody that's not really supposed to come over here.
01:01:31:11 - 01:01:42:01
Stacey/Dori
I don't open the door. I don't just go, let me get my gun and shoot them. Yeah. Why is everybody why does everybody act like a Karen and think everybody's out to get them? Why is that the mentality?
01:01:42:03 - 01:01:49:21
Dr John
Or we have a lot of fear mongering in our our media. You know, I think we live in that. We live in an area where this is.
01:01:49:21 - 01:02:12:02
Stacey/Dori
Everybody, Dory is nodding for all of the audience who can't see us, which is everybody. Sorry. Yes. I'm not sleeping. I'm I'm kidding. I know, I just want I don't want to be listening. I'm actively listening. I just I just don't want to be the only. Yes, I was worried that I was the only vocal person about this, but I just hate these white, entitled people.
01:02:12:08 - 01:02:19:17
Stacey/Dori
I don't know, sometimes I talk a lot on the podcast. I wanted to really just listen. And you wanted to listen. You wanted to get gifts for all of them.
01:02:19:17 - 01:02:22:09
Dr John
I feel empathic listening. Dory. Thank you.
01:02:22:15 - 01:02:24:20
Stacey/Dori
Yes, I really felt it. Okay, whatever.
01:02:24:20 - 01:02:27:15
Dr John
You I've felt your support.
01:02:27:17 - 01:02:29:21
Stacey/Dori
But I wanted everybody to know you supported me.
01:02:30:01 - 01:02:52:06
Dr John
Yes. Okay. Go. My my point that I was getting at is that we live in a world right now where fear mongering is just the, you know, the elixir for the media. You know, it's like, this is what we we gobble up news about, you know, bad things. And we live in the epicenter of that. The Chicago area gets such bad, publicity over.
01:02:52:08 - 01:03:13:03
Dr John
Oh, it's shooting, you know, the crime ridden. And it's a it's a wonderful place to live. You know, it's a it's a great place to live. And there's so many things to do. And so culturally enriched. And yet, you know, around the country, as I meet with people around the country in my work there, always you hear from Chicago, how is it?
01:03:13:03 - 01:03:40:01
Dr John
Is it is it is it safe? I don't yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's a great place to visit etc.. And we have like a million visitors each year. The Chicago, the you know, but we love to hear about, you know, how fearful it is. And Susan was a victim of this, you know, probably and just fueled her anger and, and her bitterness and, and the psych issues that she had that that led to all this, you know, it's.
01:03:40:04 - 01:03:48:04
Stacey/Dori
Know where where does this so she's in prison. She's in prison for quite a while. Right. Like she is. Right.
01:03:48:06 - 01:03:52:16
Dr John
And by the way, can I add. Yeah. Didn't she look much better?
01:03:52:18 - 01:03:56:22
Stacey/Dori
She was in prison, right? Crush on Susan. Wait.
01:03:56:24 - 01:04:01:16
Dr John
No no, no, no, I'm not saying she's not.
01:04:01:18 - 01:04:30:03
Stacey/Dori
Susan is hot because maybe pre prison Susan was not to your liking, but prison Susan. And maybe this is reminding me, Dorie. This is reminding me of prison Warren Jeffs. Because John said he thought Warren Jeffs. God, looking through Doctor John may have a thing for those and for inmates, for an inmate, I. I wonder if Warren Jeffs and Susan has met.
01:04:32:06 - 01:04:37:15
Speaker 1
May.
01:04:38:06 - 01:04:39:15
Stacey/Dori
Thanks so much for listening.
01:04:39:15 - 01:04:47:24
Speaker 1
Stay tuned for our next episode of Pod Kandy, where we explore the cult behind the killer. The Andrea Yates story.
01:04:48:01 - 01:04:51:14
Stacey/Dori
Our theme music is written and performed by Midnight Current.
01:04:51:16 - 01:05:07:00
Stacey/Dori
Check out more of their work on SoundCloud. For more about us and to catch up on every episode of pod Candy, head over to pod Candy podcast.com. You can also find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:05:07:22 - 01:05:23:03
Stacey
support pad candy. If you love our podcast, consider donating any amount to buy me a coffee.com/pad candy. Every bit helps us keep creating the true crime cult and pop culture stories you can't stop listening to.
01:05:23:05 - 01:05:25:11
Dr. John
So people can buy us a cup of coffee.
01:05:26:00 - 01:05:29:00
Speaker 1
Candy.
01:05:29:01 - 01:05:43:20
Unknown
I.
01:05:43:22 - 01:05:52:11
Unknown
Really?