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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast.
My name is Sylvan and Declan isn't here today, but in Declan's place I've got a very special guest joining me. I've got Alicia who is one of our book club members and longtime listeners joining me and we're gonna be talking about the Heated Rivalry book part five. So thank you so much for joining me, Alicia.
Alicia (00:23)
No, thank you for having me. This is amazing. I mean, I've never dreamt to to dream to be in a podcast before. So it's great. Thank you.
Silvan (00:35)
Well, you're filling in for Declan today who couldn't be here with us. And so we are just so appreciative that you were able to step in because you've been one of our listeners from the right from the beginning and you're so active on our Fable Book Club. So it's obviously so it's so lovely to be able to meet people who are sort of contributing to the community. So thank you.
Alicia (00:59)
No, thank you guys for all your work and it's been amazing this j ⁓ journey with you, the podcast, and of course the book club. We have met lots of interesting people, it's interesting crowd. we do Zoom meetings every week. We are like friends now.
Silvan (01:19)
Yeah, and it's been so lovely to sort of watch it grow and you really do get a sense of community now. Like you guys are all posting and sharing links and book recommendations and fanfics. like you said, you host your own sort of Zoom meetings independent of us, and that's been lovely to just jump in and crash your Zoom meetings sometimes. And it also puts sort of faces to names in a way. But I'm wondering, Alicia, what
Alicia (01:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (01:47)
How did you get involved or how did you find out about heated rivalry?
Alicia (01:53)
So ⁓ I guess through Instagram, lots of people that I follow, like that recommend TV shows and stuff, they started talking about it like at the end of last year, maybe. And it was something that I wanted to watch, but I didn't have the streaming service that they were it's on here in Spain. So I was like, well.
At some point I'm gonna watch it. But then the Olympics came, the Winter Olympics, and my daughter was starting to watch lots of hockey. And I was like, watching these games. I'm gonna like look for the the TV show that all that everybody's talking about. So I signed up for the streaming service and I started to watch it and
It was like in two days I watched the six episodes and it was crazy and I had to watch it again like right after I finished it. And then I was like, mm, why is this based on an ⁓ on a novel? I check it up and then I went to and I started reading the novels and it's like well blown out of proportion.
Silvan (03:04)
Yeah, that's
really interesting. So in a similar way I was very similar. I watched the T V show first, and then I started reading the books. But I know in the book club you guys have all finished all of the books and in fact you've moved on to different books whilst I'm still reading Heated Rivalry. So it's it's been interesting to watch some of the discussions but avoid some of the spoilers as well.
Alicia (03:21)
Yeah.
Well, because Fable is really great. You can like see ⁓ discuss the lobby or stuff and not get into the chapters, which is good for the people, and then you can go like little by little like at your own speed.
Silvan (03:43)
Yeah.
Which is why it works for me so well.
So, where we left off in the last episode was the introduction of the infamous Rose character. Now, I love Rose. I love everything she stands for. I love what she does for the storyline. But we're gonna carry on from chapter 15. So, in chapter 15, this is where we get the conversation between Rose and Shane, and Shane's coming out.
Alicia (04:03)
Yes.
Silvan (04:10)
And so before we get into very specifics 'cause you know I like to dissect the language, what were your general impressions of this chapter?
Alicia (04:20)
so I loved the chapter. I I kept listening to the voice of the actress, Sophie Nellis. I when I was reading the the dialogues, I was like, this is her for sure. And yeah, no, I I I loved it.
Silvan (04:38)
Yeah, and so in a similar way, like I can really hear Sophie's voice as Rose. Like she's just become the character for me in the same way, It sounds like we're we're both very similar in that regard.
Alicia (04:46)
Yeah.
Silvan (04:50)
So one of the things that struck me in this chapter was the way sex is described between Shane and Rose.
And it felt so different when it was written in comparison to the T V show for me. So for example, one of the lines from the first page in chapter fifteen, in in fact, is
which made it more difficult for him to perform. But she had been patient and helpful, and he'd completed the task both times. Now I don't know how it feels like for you. Right? It just feels like it's a job for him to do rather than something that he enjoys. What were your thoughts?
Alicia (05:18)
I I also right highlighted that.
Yeah, it's totally that. I I wrote it, the task a hand. It's horri it's horrible. It it you read it, it's like a I don't know, a hundred years old conversation of like a queer guy that has to be with a woman.
Because he has to per and and he has to perform when he's not happy at all and his brain is not there for sure and nor is his b body. So yes, I I thought it was so sad.
Silvan (05:59)
Right, it is sad because you're right, it's almost like how people might have been expected to perform like way, way before, and in a way it contrasts so much with the sex scenes that we see Shane and Ilya having, and where it's descriptive and it's it's hot.
Alicia (06:10)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, totally. It doesn't have anything to do with that. This is like a like a chore that he has. Like he has to do this, he has to perform. and well of course we don't know her like her side of the story, so we don't know what she's thinking, but
his point of view is like this is like a terrible thing that I have to do to like make this and or to perform this task.
Silvan (06:47)
Completely agree. And I think for me, what this chapter gave me is for me, it was actually really similar to the TV show in in some ways. Because when we get to the scene in the TV show where they sit down at the restaurant together, I looked at my I looked at the book and I made notes, and I'm like, the dialogue in that exchange is almost word for word lifted from the book. I wasn't expecting that.
Alicia (06:56)
Yeah.
Yes.
Totally. Yeah, that's why that's why I'm saying sometimes I don't listen the the voices of the actors the actors. But in this particular case I was listening to her because it's word by word what they said in the T V show.
Silvan (07:30)
Completely. And
even some of the jokes are exactly the same, like when, you know, it's been described like wear a square peg in a round hole kind of thing, or when even Shane says, I kind of prefer to be the hole than the peg. Again, lifted.
Alicia (07:44)
Yeah, I loved
that. I loved that conversation and I loved the the geometrics of the of the example.
Silvan (07:54)
Was there anything that you got from the book chapter that you didn't get from the T V show or or vice versa?
Alicia (08:02)
Well I I I love that he describes her and he says that she likes to ask questions and she's really interested in the answers. And I know that we have said that the author has said that he's an autistic person, but I think he is also very introvert because I'm sort of introvert too. And
This is such a comfort when you are talking to someone that asks you questions and then is interested in your answers. And I on I think that's the connection they have, like the really good connection that he clicks with her, and I think it's because of that.
Silvan (08:45)
So it sounds like you really relate to to character to Shane because you're both introverts in a way.
Alicia (08:48)
Yeah, yeah,
totally. When I was reading that, I was like, ⁓ of course. That's why he felt so s l safe with her, because she's like this and in the TV show you can tell that as well because when they they met, she starts asking about him when he was little, when he started playing hockey and all that. And you can get this connection as well. But
Here in the in the in the beginning of this chapter they move it's he talks about that as well.
Silvan (09:22)
I think you're right. I think one of the things that definitely comes across is this sense of safety. And I think that allows both of these characters to have that conversation because, you know
I don't think you'd be able to come out to somebody if you didn't feel safe or secure with them, you know, because it's such it's such an anxiety provoking situation and it just wouldn't have happened, I think, with any other character but Rose, I think.
Alicia (09:40)
Yeah, that's for sure.
Yeah, for sure. And she's so sweet the way she says the things and when she thinks she's not saying them right, she's like, let me go the other way. Yeah, she's really, really nice.
Silvan (10:02)
Yeah, there's a perception that she has that, you know, where she's constantly thinking, I'm not doing this right. Let me try that again.
Alicia (10:11)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (10:12)
Yeah.
And for me in this chapter, I think one of the biggest differences after the coming out scene was we get the introduction of Svetlana in this chapter. ⁓ I think is am I correct?
Alicia (10:24)
Yes,
yes, because yeah, my my following notes are about Sedlana.
Silvan (10:29)
Okay.
I'm so not paranoid, I'm so worried sometimes because ⁓ and I have to thank some of the listeners from the previous episode. So because I got the timeline wrong from with Shane and and Rose getting together and then breaking up. So I want to thank some of the listeners who left comments and wrote in and corrected me because I genuinely wasn't sure. So it was really nice to have that feedback.
Alicia (10:42)
Yeah.
Silvan (10:57)
And it was very immediate feedback. So I'm always very worried about saying something and I'm like, have I got this right or not? But you're right. This is our first introduction to Svetlana as a character. And for me, the way Svetlana is described is she has blue eyes, long straight hair, and is blonde.
Alicia (11:18)
Yeah, this is my note here about that. Well, of course I loved that they shanged her in in the in the TV show. I mean, I've met mm, I have several Russian ⁓ lab mates, co-workers, and they come in all different colors. So I'm really glad that they change her because she's a much better, more interesting character and
Silvan (11:20)
Tell me what tell me what you were thinking there.
Alicia (11:45)
in the in the T V show. So yes, I I wrote that. Like she's blonde, super blonde, like blue eyes. She has like the typical what you would expect a Russian to be, but no, there are s so many different like phenotypes of Russians.
Silvan (12:03)
Totally and I think when you say that even I was thinking about how she made Scott in Game Changer blonde as well and it immediately pulled me back to that.
Alicia (12:15)
Yeah. Well, I guess ⁓ you stick to the things that you know and probably most of the hockey players, which I don't know much about it, but most of Canadian hockey players are white and blonde probably. So yeah. But I think the casting have done an excellent job in changing and doing some inclusion of different backgrounds.
Silvan (12:42)
Definitely,
because you see the the actress who plays Fetlana, Senia, I think is how you some pronounce it. Again, if I'm pronouncing this differently, please please tell me. ⁓ but she is a gorgeous, gorgeous person. She's got this sort of brown, blondish, sort of really thick, curly hair. She's obviously darker skinned, and she's not that typical sort of blonde character that's described in the book. So I think you're right. I think the casting does such a good job, but
Alicia (12:51)
⁓ I don't know.
No, yeah.
Silvan (13:10)
maybe taking elements of the character from the book, but really making the character in the TV show it almost feels like an independent character from the book.
Alicia (13:19)
Yeah, totally, totally. It has some well, it has the same name, it has similar things like she's also the daughter of goaltender from Russia from the from the national team. And he probably played also in a in a North American team for sure, because she was born in in in the US. And I also love and this is similar both in the book.
in the books and in the ⁓ TV show that she loves she knows lots about hockey. I love that because this is not the only woman in the books that knows about hockey. We can talk about that later. But she does know a lot and that's great because she's a woman and she knows about sports and she knows for sure about hockey hockey. Actually Ilya says that she knows more than him so
Silvan (14:06)
Yeah, no, let's talk about
Yeah, do you think because I don't I haven't played sports like profession like team sports in in a really long while and I don't tend the only sport that I watch now is tennis mainly around sort of like the US Open and Wimbledon and things like that, but I don't play tennis anymore. Do you think there's a different level of perception that you get as a fan of a sport when you're removed from playing the sport?
Alicia (14:39)
Mm yeah, I think so. Probably. I d I haven't ever played a in a in a team sport. I used to do swimming, that's all my sport.
But my my daughter, she plays inline hockey, which is similar in a way, but totally different because it's not violent. And I'm glad that it's that way. And I know perfectly well that there is that we we are ⁓ wishing like a like the families, we are fan of the ⁓ of the ⁓ team. And we when we talk to her afterwards, her point of view is totally different to what we think is happening.
on the ring and in the game. So yes, definitely.
Silvan (15:27)
So do you think as a family because your daughter's playing the the the the game your whole family sort of gathers around it and like learns the game with her without having to play it?
Alicia (15:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. We w I ha I didn't know anything about hockey. And now I know all the rules, all the teams, and what they play, the position they play in. So that's for sure what happened with Tulelana here. She's she's the daughter of a player and she grew grew she grew up with this and that's why she has all this knowledge, for sure. Cause I I mean she's
surrounded by hockey and people talking by about hockey and yes I guess those different points of view are important like the players that are actually playing but also the people that can watch it from afar.
Silvan (16:25)
Yeah, absolutely. And they even in the book, you know, Rachel Reed goes into how Ilya met Svetlana three years ago. So they're new friends, really. And for me, you know, you know, I think she sold him a car or something like that in Boston, or she was I mean, of course it's Ilya. But a and I I really appreciate the change that they made and it would must have been a very conscious change that they made for the T V show.
Alicia (16:35)
Yeah.
Lamborghini.
Silvan (16:52)
making Svetlana a childhood friend, someone who you know, who's grown up with Ilya. And I think for me, what that did was it gave Ilya an anchor. It gave Ilya almost a what we call an attachment theory, like a secure base or a base rather, maybe not secure, for an an a tether because Ilya does go off the rails a lot, you know, he travels so much, and I feel like in the TV show Svetlana is that
Alicia (17:03)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (17:20)
a base for him to come back to.
Alicia (17:23)
Yeah, that that's for sure. And otherwise he would be really really lonely, right? Like living abroad in a different continent, all all by himself since the Swiss sweet age of 17. Ts that's a lot. So yeah, I'm glad that they corrected that. And then that he has that figure to go back to and
talk and feel accompanied.
Silvan (17:55)
Yeah. And you talked about sort of other women in the book sort of having this really expansed knowledge of of of of hockey. I wonder if you could go into that a bit more.
Alicia (18:06)
Yeah, well ⁓ the ⁓ I have notes here and in you can tell that Yunas, Shane's mother, also not a lot about hockey. And we might discuss this later in the in one of the following chapters, but she also tells him this is gonna happen and he's like, How did you know that? Again, because she has watched a lot of hockey and she knows.
They even say that she has a it like a sex sense about it, but it's ⁓ it's ⁓ it's only because she she knows a lot and she helps watch it a lot, like Lana.
Silvan (18:44)
Yeah, I think it's important that the women's knowledge here is really uplifted. And it's it's almost revered and celebrated. You know, the women in these stories are not side characters with no ambition or no sort of growth or development themselves. They they really see I can see them really holding their own in in in this story. And I think without some of these
Alicia (18:55)
Yeah.
Silvan (19:11)
really strong female protagonists, it doesn't allow the the male characters to then grow and develop the story.
Alicia (19:21)
For sure. Yeah, that's for sure. And in the TV show they also make Rose so r also ⁓ Rose also knows her
hockey and beh because she has two or three elder brothers that play hockey and stuff. So it's it also is I think it is it makes them like equal partners. Like they can talk to each other. It's not like a woman that has totally different interests that cannot see eye to eye to these guys whose lives is completely around hockey. Like so
I think that that's why these characters are so like well matched to them.
Silvan (20:04)
You're right, because they could have easily fallen under the trope of like a girlfriend or a wife or a mother who has no interest in hockey, has no knowledge of it, and is very separate. 'Cause you see those in in lots of T V shows and movies, like the the number of times you've seen them and it's it's a stereotype. And I'm glad that Rachel Reed went against that and really lent into actually, yes, the men play the hockey, but the women know the hockey better.
Alicia (20:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. And I think it's because she loves hockey and she knows a lot about hockey and she follows the league and everything. So she I I think she's like reflecting her in in in these in these characters. That's my idea.
Silvan (20:47)
No, that's such a good point. I hadn't really considered how much of a fan Rachel Reid must be of hockey.
Alicia (20:53)
She is. Hmm. Yeah.
Silvan (20:54)
Yeah.
Alicia (20:56)
so I like a lot the re the r math reference that
Rose's the point of Rose when she says the that a problem is something that you can solve. Like not in a daily life, like a problem in a daily life is not necessarily something that you can solve, but in in a month point of view, problem so say that something that definitely has a solution. And I love that reference. And then when she says that that you might be like miles, well
at in in the book, he answers and says, Well, I'm not sure if I'm exactly like Miles. He's at this point still deflecting. He's still saying, No, I don't think I'm gay. So that's interesting. This this time when I read it, I was like, I didn't pick on that before. That when he was talking to Ross, he still wasn't sure.
Silvan (21:48)
Yeah.
Such a good point. I didn't really pick up on that in the same way, but I'm glad you said that because I yeah, you're right. In a way he doesn't really identify with Miles because maybe on some level he doesn't think he's like he hasn't fully come to the realization that he might be gay.
Alicia (22:09)
Yeah. He's just
coming to that realization while he speaks to Rose. So he's still saying, Well, I might not be a hundred percent gay. I might be, I don't know, sixty percent gay or eighty percent gay. I'm not totally like Miles.
Silvan (22:26)
Well yeah, because you're s I I imagine for someone like Shane, he's still holding on to this idea that he still could be with a woman and and Rose for him was that person that he could be with, he could build a life with, he could have kids with, for example.
Alicia (22:41)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's the thing yeah, that's what he says, that she's perfect, that she was perfect for him. But if she cannot have this relationship with a perfect match, well there it there won't be other one.
Silvan (22:56)
No.
I like that you brought us back to that specifically because I was listening to I think the Shelf Aware podcast with Ren and Lizzie, and they were talking about how
That line was specifically worded as well. Again, please feel free to correct me, ⁓ anyone who's listening, but I feel like in the TV show, Ro says something along the lines of ⁓ a problem is something you can fix, or something like that. Whereas in the book it says a problem is something that you can solve. I really like the book version.
Alicia (23:27)
Yeah, definitely. It's perfect. As I said, it's scientific. It's a problem is something that you can solve, like a mathematical problem that has a solution.
The part where they where she says that the round peck doesn't fit in a square hole. I don't this I don't understand why in the book they said it she says, no Rose, forget I said that. And in the TV show they also she also corrects herself and says, No, forget I said that. I don't understand what is the problem because I to me these are two different geometrical shapes that of course don't fit one into another, but
Silvan (24:02)
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think I really like that you're coming at this scene from a very mathematical perspective, which is so you know, says so much of your background because I know you teach, ⁓ and you're a scientist, so that makes sense. I think for me what I got is, you know, one doesn't fit in the other. And I think I don't know if they're taking it quite literally, ⁓ which is why it's like, ooh, gross. or that would might be painful.
Alicia (24:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but
probably.
Silvan (24:30)
I don't know, that's the way I took it, but I I like the I like your take on that actually. It's it's really interesting.
Alicia (24:37)
So the thing is that it's a really good example. So I don't understand why she says gross because you get it when when she says it.
Silvan (24:46)
And you're so right, because whilst we're having this conversation about Shane coming to this realization that maybe he's he's gay and he won't be marrying a woman, I think on the other side you have Ilya who doesn't know this conversation is happening at all, right? Like he's none the wiser. And in fact, towards the end of the chapter, he says he wondered if Rose Landry would be accompanying Shane to everything from now on. Maybe they would get married.
And you so see this in the next chapter. So when we go to chapter 16, this is the Tampa scene, the bar scene, right? And you see this from Ilya. You see this, you know, as a reader, we're privy to the scenes that have happened that other characters don't know about. So like we're in on it. We have this insider knowledge, and we're waiting for Ilya specifically here. Like, how is he going to react? What's
Alicia (25:22)
Yes.
Silvan (25:43)
What's his perception of this? What were your thoughts on on chapter sixteen and how that developed?
Alicia (25:50)
So ⁓ first this is that what you're saying is really interesting because from Ilias' point of view, he's already thinking that Shane is gonna get there and he's gonna be engaged to this super super Hollywood star and he's already like hardworking about that. On the other hand, Shane is like
Nothing ha has happened. He's like, well, is Ilya gonna be like, are we gonna continue with our relationship well with our situationship? And he's like, no, I haven't been dating this super huge person that everybody knows about and Ilya is of course gonna be affected by it, but he's not I mean I don't yeah, yeah.
Silvan (26:36)
No, he's unfazed in a way, 'cause he's
like, it's business as usual But you're right, the way he comes into the scene he's like, how's how's it going?
Alicia (26:41)
Yeah, it's like yeah, yeah.
Yeah, like he's like Shane thinks they left things in a weird way, but just in a weird way. No not like in this place a scenario change in way.
Silvan (26:55)
Mm.
Totally, and I think what I really appreciated from this chapter was I got the inner monologue from both Shane but also more so from Ilya from reading the book than I did maybe in the T V show. What was your sort of position on that? Did you have another idea?
Alicia (27:16)
Well, in the TV show we know that he is anxious to meet Shane again because the the bar scene that's what you get from all his movements and all his me. But now you you when in the book you read the whole thing and you read that he's really, really interesting to know what happened with Rose. If are they still together, he
saw what everybody else saw that they were really good together because they had lots of chemistry as well. And but that's because they they were like they started this really cool relationship that it's gonna end up being a really cool friendship. And of course he picked on that but he wanted to know how far they went.
Silvan (28:04)
Absolutely, because and and one thing I didn't realize as well whilst I was reading this was, you know, Rachel Reed writes, Ilya hadn't texted Hollander in over two months. Like they didn't even text in the time that Shane was dating Rose. Like complete cutoff. So they've gone from, you know, like you said before, the situationship to them texting and then sexting and then hooking up whenever they could, to going cold turkey. There was no communication whatsoever.
Alicia (28:33)
Exactly.
Silvan (28:34)
So
Ilya is almost this I feel this island on his own with all these thoughts like Shane's gonna get engaged to Rose That's it, like this is done. Like and and he doesn't exactly and he doesn't even know that Shane is having this realization and this conversation with Rose that is going to sort of propel the next sort of part of the storyline.
Alicia (28:45)
This is the end.
Yeah, it's amazing how they I mean I guess the ha this can happen a lot with ⁓ male characters or like that they repressed their feelings a lot, like because this is what he's done. He's been for two months repressing the heartbreak and how he's feeling that and
I don't know how I can't do it. Because they continue playing hockey, they continue scoring goals and doing everything. I guess it's this compartmentalization that they can do. Like where they are on the ice, they perform no matter what happened, what is happening with their like personal life.
Silvan (29:31)
Yeah.
Actually, that's such a good point. I would have really liked to know how Ilya was coping, not just a line that says he hadn't texted Hollander in over two months. Because there is a male-female stereotype that plays in here, right? I know you talked about like a a male character might sort of, you know, immerse himself into the work or into the hockey. And I I can almost imagine a female character in a romance book then sort of
Alicia (30:04)
Yeah.
Silvan (30:09)
Talking to other characters, other females in the book, really pouring her heart out in a way. And that's just the stereotypical Hollywood kind of thing that you sort of imagine happening. But I wonder how much of that really reflects reflects real life. Like from your friends around you and growing up, like how much did you talk to your friends after a heartbreak ⁓ versus maybe a male might have?
Alicia (30:20)
Yeah.
I mean I I would talk to my heart's content, no, with my with all my friends, like especially my female friends. They are such a support for me in like this in difficult and especially on a breakup. And I don't understand how he does it in this particular case because Ilya doesn't have in the books he doesn't have friends.
that he would talk about this and he doesn't have family. I guess I guess the the part where he's really and where he's an athlete and he does lots of training and exercise which I guess that's really good for him. And at this point is what he is keeping him sane, I would think. But at some point I bet this would
like mm I don't know. Hey, you have an impact, yes, for sure. This is really taxing for for anybody.
Silvan (31:30)
Have an impact?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah. And I think what I do appreciate in this scene in the TV show is Connor's story's acting in the scene is like off the charts amazing. There are these micro moments that Connor does with his face. I think he he's he says something like, ⁓ God, or something like that, but under his breath that you just see, and there's like this gulp with his throat that he does in the scene, and it really elevates the scene for me because
Alicia (31:49)
Yeah.
Silvan (32:06)
I wouldn't have gotten that from the book alone. I think the acting really elevates it here.
Alicia (32:09)
No, for sure.
Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. So he doesn't say a word. But I mean he s moves his lips, but he doesn't really talk and you can tell what he's feeling in that particular moment for sure. He's amazing.
Silvan (32:29)
Definitely, I mean
right? And and you're right, he doesn't really say much. He has this thought about Ilya has this thought and he says, Christ, he looks so fucking good. And he does, and I think the T V show really shows like he looks good, right? Like he's made an effort. And and you see this juxtaposition as in in in very in a very similar way that the T V show does where Ilya's wearing this hideous palm tree shirt. ⁓ let's be honest, like
Alicia (32:57)
Yeah like
like is Hawaii Yeah definitely There wasn't a stylist involved.
Silvan (33:00)
I mean, you could tell he picked that out for himself.
Right, and I think what I think I liked about having the words written down in the book was Ilya is fishing. Like he's looking for the information, he's asking Shane for the information, but in a very non direct way, which we know Shane does not respond to. Shane needs direct questions. So Ilya's like Did you bring anyone with you?
Alicia (33:26)
Yeah.
Silvan (33:32)
Shane shakes his hand. No, I mean my parents thought about it. And he goes on about his parents. He's like, that is not what the boy is asking, Shane. That's not what he's wanting.
Alicia (33:37)
No it's
it's so frustrating.
Silvan (33:45)
And then he asks, like, ⁓ Rosalandry must be busy filming somewhere. Like, you know, like there's this It's almost like Ilya is in a desert and Shane is a cup of water. And he wants to drink it, but he has to get to it and he has to be given the water.
Alicia (33:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. totally. Poor boy.
Silvan (34:05)
I mean he's really putting him, you know, through his paces 'cause and I and I I don't know what you think, but I think Shane on some level knows that what I feel like Shane is is playing as well with Ilya
And I wanted to ask you, as somebody who speaks multiple languages, so can you just tell us ⁓ what languages you do speak, Alicia?
Alicia (34:26)
⁓ well I only speak two languages which is not a lot. So I speak Spanish as is my mother tongue and then I speak English as a second language and because as we said I'm a scientist, we most of our work is in English. So we read our papers in English, we give seminars in English, all the conferences are in English, so I use it mostly for science and
Silvan (34:52)
Yeah.
Alicia (34:54)
So and I like I love reading in English too. Like literature.
Silvan (34:57)
Yeah. And I definitely want to ask you
about how what it's like reading English, but when we get to the point in the chapter where Shane says we just weren't compatible. Now, as somebody who speaks a second language, if you didn't know what compatible meant, how would you have taken that from Shane?
Alicia (35:16)
It's funny because I was I was gonna tell you that compatible, like when you read it and when you say it in English, it's really similar in Spanish. Compatible, which is exactly the same word written word by word. So I don't know anything about Russian. I guess it doesn't have the same root, so probably it's completely different in Russian, and that's why he has to check it. I have said compatible and I would have asked for a
a different way of saying it. A synonym or something. but yeah, I mean I would have got it like right away. Yeah.
Silvan (35:55)
You would have gotten it straight away. And can I ask,
because you talked about sort of ⁓ you teach in English and in Spanish, now what was it like for you reading the books? Did you read the English version or the Spanish version?
Alicia (36:02)
Mm.
I read the English versions.
Silvan (36:11)
Interesting. So was that a conscious decision of yours to only read the English version?
Alicia (36:17)
So the thing is I lived in the in the States for four years and when I moved to Spain, I was like, ⁓ I'm gonna start reading literature in English because I'm gonna forget the the the language, especially like the the daily language, not the one that you I speak in the lab. So I started reading books in English and I kept doing it. That's one thing.
Then the other thing is that Rachel Reed's books are not translated all of them to Spanish yet. So they are, I think, they have translated the first three. In any case,
If a book is written in English originally, I always read them in English because I don't want like a translation secondhand, I don't know how to say it. Book. I do the same with the like textbooks. If they are written in English, I read them in English. So but these particular books that are like really sexy and this has has
Silvan (37:11)
Yeah.
Alicia (37:26)
They have these hot scenes. I don't know how would that be in Spanish. I don't know if I could read them like in Spanish, like I read them in English. So this is interesting. And I might take a look at them in Spanish in a library or something at some point to see how they translate them because it's it's I'm really ⁓ intrigued by how the translations are.
Silvan (37:53)
Yeah, and are you saying that the spicier scenes or the sex scenes might not have like a direct translation or or words directly in Spanish or?
Alicia (37:58)
Yeah.
No, no, no, no.
I ⁓ no. What I'm saying is I don't really know if the translations are gonna no not the translations, sorry. Is reading these spices in in Spanish, it how are they gonna feel? Like wow, this sounds like when he says something, I don't know, I d I don't have an example right now, but
Silvan (38:24)
Yeah.
Alicia (38:25)
That translated to Spanish, I'm gonna be like, ⁓ this is gross. I don't know if I'm gonna say that, you know what I mean? It's like a second language is always something detached from your like from I don't know. No, no, you're finished because I read a lot in in English, but I'm intrigued about how my how am I going to react to the these scenes written in Spanish.
Silvan (38:31)
Yeah.
I think that's a really good point and I'd really like to hear from some of our other listeners who maybe English is their second language, but they've chosen to read the Rachel Reed books in English.
Silvan (39:01)
And as you were talking there, Alicia, I was thinking about what Ilya's experience must have been. So you're saying that when you read in English, you have an English sort of stream that you sort of in your sort of reading and thinking in English.
Alicia (39:11)
Yeah.
Silvan (39:15)
Whereas when you're reading in Spanish, that's completely separate. You're not having to translate between the two.
Alicia (39:21)
Yeah, that's how it works.
So what I was thinking every time that
⁓ I read or I s yes every time that I read that Ilya is translating from Russian to English. I've read that in the books. I don't think that's the case because when you learn a second language and in the case in the particular case of Ilia, he learned it when he was 17 years old. So he's not translating for sure. He's using the vocabulary that he has. And probably talking we are talking about an at
click that for sure doesn't read the New Yorker. ⁓ he doesn't have a super huge vocabulary because he's just learning the stuff that he listen in the locker room, etc. But for sure, even though he might not have a huge vocabulary, he's not translating. He's just using what he knows and the words that he knows. And in that sense, what you do is you try to construct
the phrases as best as you can't with what you got and that's it. So yeah that was my point.
Silvan (40:30)
And do you think him
coming to America, I think it's like 17 or something like that, that he comes to America would have had an impact in how he's absorbing the language and how then he uses it?
Alicia (40:42)
Yeah, I'm not an expert on languages, but I moved to the States when I was twenty-three and I still have a really strong accent. So I know when you are twenty-three and you learn a single language, you don't I mean you don't lose the accent. But for example, my brother he moves he moved well
He moved when he was fifteen years old and he has way less accent than I do. So that for sure makes me think that Ilia at 13 years he speaks really fluent English, albeit he might have a strong accent still because he's 17. But yeah, for sure he has lots of vocabulary and yeah.
Silvan (41:25)
Yeah, and how important is it, I'm wondering then, to have this depiction of an immigrant, as you said, who's come from Russia to America, who retains his accent because he's immersed in a different country, and also a very different culture. Like, I don't have any Russian friends, I've never been to Russia, so I can't speak to that experience. I have been to the States.
And even the states to the UK, it's such a different culture. It's very, different.
Alicia (41:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. this is worlds apart from Russia for sure. I haven't been to Russia, but I have had Russian labmates and I think they are culturally more similar to Mediterranean. Well, I don't really know. It's what I'm saying is that they have a really strong culture and they are really close to their families, to their traditions, to their
culture in general to their food. And this for a 70-year-old kid must have been really difficult for sure. And and he was in an environment where he couldn't like been enjoying like Russian stuff. He had to work, he had to play hockey and he couldn't do much more than that. So
That's probably w that was probably like really difficult for him.
Silvan (42:47)
Yeah, it feels really jarring. I can only imagine what that's like. And to me, it would be like I've been cut off from a huge part of who I am. Like, like you talked about the food. Food is so important to culture, right? Like I, yes, I grew up in Europe and you know, that's where I am and I've lived and I'm in UK now. And, but I grew up in an Indian family. And if you know any Indians, like food is
Alicia (43:00)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah,
Silvan (43:16)
Huge, right?
Alicia (43:17)
center. Yeah. I think it's the same for Russians and they are not that different to an like a Russian family is not as not that different to a Indian family or a Spanish family in terms of their traditions and their foods. And that for sure for a kid like Ilya, a 70-year-old kid that is like extracted from that and
put into a totally different culture that was for sure really really mm stressful.
Silvan (43:51)
Yeah, because he doesn't
have the comforts. He doesn't have maybe the foods or the family around him. Or I don't know if there are any other Russian plays. I can't remember any other Russian plays being talked about in the first two books, but he doesn't have that connection. It's almost like he's cut off. And I know Rachel Re talks about, writes about him going back every summer. But the impression I get from those, those sections is that he doesn't look forward to going back because of what home is now.
Alicia (44:04)
Okay. Yeah.
Silvan (44:19)
you know, with his father being ill and his brother and all the difficulties there. So going home isn't, to me, it doesn't feel like it's something that he necessarily might look forward to. It's just something that he does, like an obligation.
Alicia (44:31)
Yeah, I mean ⁓
yeah in the book he says I love my country but I don't wanna be there because of what I think s since from the point of view of an immigrant like myself who has a difficult relationship with
their country because my country is also beautiful and we have an amazing culture but also has struggles really complicated. So I understand him a hundred percent. So you love your culture, you love your country, but you don't want to be there and that's what he feels. And in his case in particular he doesn't feel welcome because because of the homophobic culture or or rules that they have there. So
Yeah, that's for sure.
Silvan (45:16)
Yeah,
I think I've so appreciated having this conversation with you because essentially we are both immigrants, so we can speak to that experience.
Alicia (45:26)
Right.
Silvan (45:29)
Because we're having this conversation, it's really highlighting for me that Rachel Reader, at least in the books, and I don't know about the TV show, I haven't really thought about this, I'm sort of thinking aloud here. They don't talk about the immigrant experience a lot or enough. I think they could have, yeah, what are your thoughts?
Alicia (45:44)
No, no.
No, I think well I underst I guess she doesn't go into details in all the things because I don't know, she probably doesn't know the experience she d yeah, exactly. So she cannot write from that point of view. But it's way more difficult than what is put in the books, for sure.
Silvan (45:59)
It's not her experience.
Definitely, think there's a lot there that could have been fleshed out, but even if we're thinking about Shane's character, you know, being biracial in both the TV show and the books, and I know the TV show talks a little bit more about it, I feel like than the book does, but even so, there's this huge underlayer of Shane's, you know, Japanese and American heritage that feels very unspoken or untapped.
There's so much more that could have been explored.
Alicia (46:43)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. D in the book they don't talk at all about that. She doesn't talk about at all about that. In the TV show a little bit more. And I think it's well, I don't know why, but I think it's really a minority of people that are not white playing f hockey in the in the North American leagues. I think that ⁓ so that's why they
talk about that in the in the TV show that a Japanese background kit or Asian background background kit is something really special. Because actually there are more Russians and more Europeans in the league than for sure an Asian kit.
Silvan (47:29)
Yeah, you're right. But I guess in that way, know, where a Russian or an Eastern European player might be very white passing, you know, in comparison to someone who's from a Japanese or an Asian sort of descent or heritage.
Alicia (47:37)
Yeah, exactly.
was saying that he probably learns English really well and he speaks a lot, Lamic he speaks well, but he's not in a university, he's not studying a degree, he's playing hockey.
And he's talking to other athletes that probably don't have a huge vocabulary, even though they are from Canada or the US. So I don't think he has enough vocabulary for expressing his feelings. Okay. And that's why and Chain picks on that because he says English is too difficult right now. Difficult.
English is too difficult right now because he's been in in with his family for a week, probably or a few days, and all these emotions are in his tone language, and he needs to say that in his tone languages because he's feeling them in Russian. And that's for sure something important to to highlight.
Silvan (48:41)
completely agree and I think we're going to see this in the next chapter where, you know, we find out about, Ilya's father's death and we get sort of his experience of being back in Russia and the funeral and things like that. But I think that's going to have to wait for another episode, think. Alicia, what do you think? I mean, I think where we finish off in this chapter is, you know, like you said earlier, they're both on the beach and there's this really tender moment where Ilya moves his hand.
Alicia (48:57)
Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.
Yeah.
Silvan (49:11)
towards Shane and he hooks their thumbs together and it's just so right
Alicia (49:14)
Yeah, so romantic.
Yeah, completely. I I wanted I wanted them to stay there for a while.
Silvan (49:19)
and you can s-
I think we all do. think we want to almost like capture and freeze that moment for a little bit longer because we know what's going to come next and it's not going to be happy.
Alicia (49:33)
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And actually,
yes, I think their time in the hotel room in the book is longer. They talk more. They start talking about ⁓ his mother, the cross that he that he's has. And I like how it's in the book better than actually in the TV show.
Silvan (49:53)
Hmm.
Yeah, that's such a good point. Really good point. there is more, there's just, the book will give you more, right? Because you can understand their inner thoughts in a way that you might not in a TV show. That's such a good point.
Alicia (50:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (50:15)
So I think we're going to stop there before we get to chapter 17. So I know we've only covered two chapters in our conversation, Alicia, but I think they've been really heavy chapters. There's a lot going in there and I've so appreciated having this conversation about being an immigrant and that experience. And I think you were the best person to have on to speak about that.
Alicia (50:39)
Thank you, you know, thank you so much for having me. This has been such a thrill.
Silvan (50:45)
thank you.
And Alicia, if people want to get in contact with you, if they want to share any ideas that they might have, where can people find you on socials?
Alicia (50:53)
So my my Instagram, I usually I only use Instagram. it's mi vida naranja, which is Spanish. My life in orange. And yeah, you can find me there for sure.
Silvan (51:06)
I'll make sure to sort of link you and tag you in the descriptions for your socials. But thank you so much for joining me, Alicia. I wonder if before we leave, if you have a message for our Spanish listeners who are maybe reading the book or watching the TV show.
Alicia (51:10)
⁓ great.
well ⁓ the loons, no the Spanish loons. Yeah, I don't I don't know if there are many. I have a few friends who share with me this passion. But yeah, I hope so I encoura encourage any Spanish speaker to watch the TV show in the original version and then read the books either way in Spanish or or English. they are really, really good.
Silvan (51:26)
Yeah.
¿Y tienes alguno mensaje para nuestros fans en español?
Alicia (51:52)
bueno, pues que os sigan acompañando el podcast y que sigan disfrutando de este universo de hockey y romance.
Silvan (52:08)
Muchas gracias.
Alicia (52:10)
No, gracias a ti.