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This podcast is about internet culture and the relationships we build (or lose) as a result. Join Sean Lukasik as he talks with authors, speakers, and thought leaders about their work - and how the internet has played a role, for better or worse.
[Sean Lukasik]: David Ebeltoft, welcome
to the Paesanos podcast. Thanks so much for doing this.
[David Ebeltoft]: Oh, thanks for having me,
Sean. It's a pleasure to be here.
[Sean Lukasik]: So let's start just by kind
of jumping right into where we currently stand
[Sean Lukasik]: with the Writers and Actors
Guild. I understand you are currently on strike
[Sean Lukasik]: yourself.
[David Ebeltoft]: I am on strike. I'm on strike
and I think the Writers Guild, which is the
[David Ebeltoft]: WGA is what I'll probably
use for terminology. So that's the Writers
[David Ebeltoft]: Guild of America. Boy, I think
we're into maybe a day 86 of our strike.
[Sean Lukasik]: Hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: And then we were joined by
a sister guild, the Screen Actors Guild, also
[David Ebeltoft]: known as SAG-AFTRA. I think
they're about 10 or 12 days in. And yeah, we're
[David Ebeltoft]: on strike just like a lot
of other unions are on strike like UPS recently
[David Ebeltoft]: luckily they got a great outcome
for the workers but the writers and the actors
[David Ebeltoft]: and actress are on strike
because it is tough to make a living wage in
[David Ebeltoft]: this day and age not just
for everyday Americans or people globally but
[David Ebeltoft]: it's really hard to make a
living wage even in the often miss, how can
[David Ebeltoft]: I say it? I'm a writer so
I want to edit myself, but the often like mis-termed,
[David Ebeltoft]: dream-like, extremely expensive,
everybody has a pool in their backyard studio
[David Ebeltoft]: system,
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: which is Hollywood. But most
of Hollywood, man, it's just a bunch of workers.
[David Ebeltoft]: You know, 99% of us are sort
of, for a better term, lack of a better term,
[David Ebeltoft]: sort of blue collar workers.
the
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: 1% the ones that you and I
know about Sean the Brad Pitts and the Steven
[David Ebeltoft]: Spielberg's and the Julia
Roberts and You know Chen and Tatans and all
[David Ebeltoft]: these wonderful individuals.
They're that 1% that make tons and tons of
[David Ebeltoft]: money But for the rest of
us we have to really sort of fight for our
[David Ebeltoft]: paycheck and both of our guilds
are on strike Because man that paycheck just
[David Ebeltoft]: keeps on dwindling unfortunately
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah, and all the articles like
to remind us the last time both unions were
[Sean Lukasik]: on strike at the same time.
Marilyn Monroe was acting and in movies. And
[Sean Lukasik]: it's, I think, a pretty strong
indication that we're at a big turning point,
[Sean Lukasik]: in terms of film and television
and the industry as a whole. And so I want
[Sean Lukasik]: to start by kind of maybe backing
up a little bit and understanding how we got
[Sean Lukasik]: here, how the industry has changed
over the past, I don't know, 15 or 20 years,
[Sean Lukasik]: from the just simply the big
screen to the small screen to cable and all
[Sean Lukasik]: the way to streaming and where
we're at today.
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah, and yeah, we will rewind
everybody, we'll flashback to the way we used
[David Ebeltoft]: to watch movies is drastically
different than the way we watch now. And those
[David Ebeltoft]: 15, 20 years that you're talking
about, there's so much to unpack, right? You
[David Ebeltoft]: mentioned that transition
from more of a theatrical going audience to
[David Ebeltoft]: really us being way more at
home. We have the rise of streaming, which
[David Ebeltoft]: we're now. in that sort of
golden age of streaming where there's almost
[David Ebeltoft]: too many streamers. We have
the complete decimation of VHS and DVD rentals,
[David Ebeltoft]: physical media is gone. It's
really being pushed, you know, buying a Blu-ray
[David Ebeltoft]: or buying a DVD is almost
like buying a vinyl. Now it's very,
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: very much of a niche market.
We have internet fandom, we have connectivity
[David Ebeltoft]: between audience and studios
and audience and stars more than we ever had
[David Ebeltoft]: before. Unfortunately that
also rises, brings up a lot of toxic fandom,
[David Ebeltoft]: which is unfortunate. We also
have the unfortunately short time spans and
[David Ebeltoft]: attention spans of
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: audience members. and how
our attention span is being spread out over
[David Ebeltoft]: multiple platforms, where
before we used to just have the theater. We
[David Ebeltoft]: used to just have that sort
of one big church, that palace to see everything
[David Ebeltoft]: we could see. So we have so
much going on in the past 15, 20 years, but
[David Ebeltoft]: I think the thing that I'd
really like to discuss with you today, and
[David Ebeltoft]: it really sort of ties into
what you were sort of talking about. going
[David Ebeltoft]: from the big screen to the
small screen is really how we, as audience
[David Ebeltoft]: members, are viewing stuff
drastically different and hence paying for
[David Ebeltoft]: it drastically differently.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: And then that trickles down
to working writers like myself, working directors,
[David Ebeltoft]: actors and actresses. So,
do you, Sean, remember a film in your youth
[David Ebeltoft]: that you used to love to watch
over and over?
[Sean Lukasik]: Absolutely. And if I did, you
know, it was on VHS and I remember the time
[Sean Lukasik]: stamps of some of my favorite
scenes
[David Ebeltoft]: Hahaha
[Sean Lukasik]: so that I could fast forward
or rewind to get there quickly. But yeah, of
[Sean Lukasik]: course.
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah, and mine, I remember
the specific title, and I'm glad that you mentioned
[David Ebeltoft]: rewatching it on VHS all the
time, is that my brother and I made our parents
[David Ebeltoft]: rent the never-ending story,
which...
[Sean Lukasik]: was going to say the never ending
story. David, that is crazy. That's the example
[Sean Lukasik]: I was going to use. And
[David Ebeltoft]: That's amazing!
[Sean Lukasik]: one of the most recent DVDs
that I received as a gift, because it's been
[Sean Lukasik]: years now since was my mom buying
that for me on DVD to make sure that I had
[Sean Lukasik]: an updated copy of it. So that's
really funny. Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: That's amazing. Our brains
are in sync. Well,
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: first of all, bless your mother
because she bought physical media, which is
[Sean Lukasik]: You're
[David Ebeltoft]: really
[Sean Lukasik]: right.
[David Ebeltoft]: rare nowadays, right? But
so I'm so happy that you're on the same watching
[David Ebeltoft]: page as not only myself, but
also my brother. So let's take Never Ending
[David Ebeltoft]: Story as an example on how
audiences really used to digest that. So first
[David Ebeltoft]: of all, you and I, we would
go to the theater, right? Let's just say your
[David Ebeltoft]: mom and your dad and siblings
go. So like my family was a family of four.
[David Ebeltoft]: So Family
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: of Four, we go to the theater,
we see that. Let's sort of say that's 40 bucks.
[David Ebeltoft]: We're just gonna start tallying
up the numbers here, and then we're gonna break
[David Ebeltoft]: down how much those numbers
just diminished over the past 20 years.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: So we have $40 in the theater.
Then you and I, we rent the living heck out
[David Ebeltoft]: of that VHS, and we remember
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: where poor Atreyu loses the
horse, and all these horrible, horrible things,
[David Ebeltoft]: the nothing, which is the
[Sean Lukasik]: Yes.
[David Ebeltoft]: most metaphysical. I mean,
what that was teaching us as kids is still,
[David Ebeltoft]: we're still trying to process.
[Sean Lukasik]: Right. That's right. Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: But so that's like two bucks
a night, right? But you and I, man, we needed
[David Ebeltoft]: that for at least five, five
weekends in a row.
[Sean Lukasik]: Right.
[David Ebeltoft]: So that's 10 bucks. So we're
now up to 50. Well, maybe your mother also
[David Ebeltoft]: really knew that you loved
it. So she purchased it on VHS for you. So
[David Ebeltoft]: that was probably 20, 30 bucks.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: So right now we're up to about
$80, but then it would get to broadcast television.
[David Ebeltoft]: which it would run on HBO
or Showtime at first, those pay-per-view channels
[David Ebeltoft]: in a way, then it would come
to what you and I probably watched it on over
[David Ebeltoft]: and over, TBS, USA Network,
AMC, Turner Classic Movies. So while it's not
[David Ebeltoft]: a one-to-one dollar correlation,
you and I racked up as a family, one viewership
[David Ebeltoft]: family, about
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: $90 on one film. That's the...
traditional model and that's how studios made
[David Ebeltoft]: their money and then that's
how it actually trickled down to us as writers
[David Ebeltoft]: When streaming came along
that was just decimated I mean streaming for
[David Ebeltoft]: all of its benefits as a viewer
because I am NOT anti streaming. I'm a huge
[David Ebeltoft]: I consume content a lot But
streaming really just took a huge hand grenade
[David Ebeltoft]: to that whole dollar-to-dollar
system because when streaming came along they're
[David Ebeltoft]: like yo We're gonna give you
guys ten dollars a month or you guys are gonna
[David Ebeltoft]: give us $10 a month and we're
gonna let you view a thousand films for as
[David Ebeltoft]: many times as you want. So
streaming basically took what one American
[David Ebeltoft]: family would spend $90 on
one film that same American family now spends
[David Ebeltoft]: $10 for a thousand films and
how that affects us as writers and why the
[David Ebeltoft]: Writers Guild is specifically
one of the big reasons When the hand grenade
[David Ebeltoft]: was thrown and that dollar
to dollar conversion went away, we lost what's
[David Ebeltoft]: called residuals.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: And residuals really are the,
they're sort of the lifeblood of the creative
[David Ebeltoft]: film industry. They are sort
of a piece of the pie that writers, actors,
[David Ebeltoft]: actresses, and directors get
of the profits of a certain film. And the reason
[David Ebeltoft]: why we get that is because
we're the creative forces behind it. You can't
[David Ebeltoft]: have a great film without
a great script. You can't have a great film
[David Ebeltoft]: without a great director.
Can't have a great film without great actors
[David Ebeltoft]: and actresses and so on. So
for the most part, writers used to make about
[David Ebeltoft]: 1% give or take. I mean, it's
not that simple of a conversion, but for our
[David Ebeltoft]: talk, it's about 1% of that
profit. So those $90 that you and I spent on,
[David Ebeltoft]: well, really our parents spent,
let's be honest.
[Sean Lukasik]: Right.
[David Ebeltoft]: Those $90 that our parents
spent on Neverending Story, that writer would
[David Ebeltoft]: get about a buck off of what?
One family viewing it. So the never earning
[David Ebeltoft]: story was huge. And even if
we said 60,000 American families sort of did
[David Ebeltoft]: the exact same thing as ours,
that's about 60,000 bucks that would trickle
[David Ebeltoft]: down to the writer. And why
that's extremely important is that the film
[David Ebeltoft]: industry is so competitive
and it's really one of the most expensive art
[David Ebeltoft]: forms out there. You know,
and I'm not... you know, poo-pooing other art
[David Ebeltoft]: forms at all, but it
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: takes a lot of capital to
create a film.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: And the reason why we as writers
and we as directors, actors, actresses need
[David Ebeltoft]: those residuals is because
it's really rare to sell films constantly or
[David Ebeltoft]: be involved in films constantly.
So on a good year, I would sell one film, but
[David Ebeltoft]: really it's every two or three
years. So... How residuals works is they would
[David Ebeltoft]: bridge the gap between us
selling films and making money.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: I like to equate it as to
sort of a waiter or a waitress. A waiter or
[David Ebeltoft]: a waitress gets base pay and
then they get tips. Writers work the same way.
[David Ebeltoft]: We get a base pay, which is
fine. It's not astronomically amazing like
[David Ebeltoft]: what people think, you know,
Brad Pitt makes and whatnot. We get a good
[David Ebeltoft]: working salary. And then the
residuals help us feed our family, feed ourselves,
[David Ebeltoft]: roof over our heads during
those two or three years that we don't make
[David Ebeltoft]: any money. So when streaming
came along and decimated that $90 down to $10
[David Ebeltoft]: to view a thousand films,
it completely decimated residuals. And it's
[David Ebeltoft]: a huge reason why not only
the writers are on strike, but the actors and
[David Ebeltoft]: actresses are on strike as
well. because we now are having, most of us
[David Ebeltoft]: are struggling to really make
a great living, not even great, a decent living
[David Ebeltoft]: off of things that are ridiculously
successful because
[Sean Lukasik]: sure
[David Ebeltoft]: streamers will not pay any
residuals because they believe and they keep
[David Ebeltoft]: all of their numbers very,
very tight, but they don't share in the success
[David Ebeltoft]: of a television series or
of a film like the studios used to share in
[David Ebeltoft]: the success
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: back in the day with films
like The NeverEnding Story.
[Sean Lukasik]: That's really interesting. And
so, you know, the big player that in streaming
[Sean Lukasik]: that we often hear about is
Netflix, and even their own model went from
[Sean Lukasik]: the physical copies that you'd
receive in the mail to, to that monthly streaming
[Sean Lukasik]: model. And yeah, they're notorious
for not sharing that data. And these are things
[Sean Lukasik]: that I'm just realizing as you're
talking are connected to, to some of the issues.
[Sean Lukasik]: And your work is on a variety
of different platforms right now from free
[Sean Lukasik]: viewings on places like YouTube
or Vimeo to, you know, Hulu or Amazon Prime.
[Sean Lukasik]: And do they all kind of work
other than the free models? Do they all work
[Sean Lukasik]: the same? Are they all pretty
similar to Netflix? Or is Netflix kind of like
[Sean Lukasik]: the the big bad wolf that we
think of it as when these conversations happen,
[Sean Lukasik]: are just sort of leading the
way.
[David Ebeltoft]: You know, I think you're right.
I think they are. I do believe, and again,
[David Ebeltoft]: as a consumer, as an audience
member, I watch Netflix like crazy. You know,
[David Ebeltoft]: I'm not anti-streaming, I'm
not anti-Netflix or Amazon. I think the industry
[David Ebeltoft]: shifted so quickly and I don't
think the industry expected our viewership
[David Ebeltoft]: to shift as quickly with it,
right? When streaming came about and I mean
[David Ebeltoft]: Netflix just cut their DVD
mail service They actually kept it going until
[David Ebeltoft]: I think this year Because
some holdouts were still very interested in
[David Ebeltoft]: that but for the most part
once they started streaming We adapted so fast
[David Ebeltoft]: because we were able to consume
content Without a schedule. We didn't have
[David Ebeltoft]: to worry about a broadcast
schedule. We didn't have to go down to the
[David Ebeltoft]: video So I mean all the things
that we now take for granted. I can't believe
[David Ebeltoft]: how fast I shifted as well
I remember,
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: you know getting my first
smart TV with the ability to do Netflix. I
[David Ebeltoft]: think it was in the late 2009s,
10s. It was pretty early
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: on. And within six months,
I remember, I didn't go to the video store
[David Ebeltoft]: anymore. I barely went out.
I mean, even myself, somebody who really does
[David Ebeltoft]: love to support cinema in
all of its ways and varieties, I adapted very
[David Ebeltoft]: quickly, so quickly that I
had to step back and say, whoa, whoa. wait,
[David Ebeltoft]: don't forget that there's
good process here and there's great reasons
[David Ebeltoft]: to go to the theater and there's
great
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: reasons to possibly peruse
this mon pop video store and look at the cover
[David Ebeltoft]: and then read the back cover.
Simple, simple things. But I do think you're
[David Ebeltoft]: right that the big bad wolves
are Netflix, Amazon, Apple, Hulu and Disney
[David Ebeltoft]: for sure. But Hulu and Disney,
they sort of came a little bit. Hulu was first
[David Ebeltoft]: in the game alongside Netflix
and Amazon. Disney came a little bit later,
[David Ebeltoft]: which is sort of during that
time, which is called the streaming wars, which
[David Ebeltoft]: we're still sort of in, where
all of a sudden everybody wanted to become
[David Ebeltoft]: a streamer. Because
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: how it used to work, and I'm
sure you remember, is it used to work like
[David Ebeltoft]: all of the studios would license
their films to Netflix. So you could watch
[David Ebeltoft]: at Disney on Netflix very
easily. But then all these companies started
[David Ebeltoft]: to realize, oh my God. we're
not making as much money as we can out of this.
[David Ebeltoft]: Let's start our own streamer.
And now I'm sure you and most of the folks
[David Ebeltoft]: listening believe there's
way too many streamers, which I agree with.
[David Ebeltoft]: There's so much out there.
And I think what we're going to see going forward
[David Ebeltoft]: over the next few years is
they're gonna start to shrink. They're gonna
[David Ebeltoft]: start to combine. They're
gonna start to really become more back to those
[David Ebeltoft]: big five, which would be Netflix,
Amazon. Hulu Disney, they're gonna sort of
[David Ebeltoft]: merge in the next few months
here. Now it's Max, used to be HBO Max,
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: Peacock, some of the really
big ones. Now the other platforms you're talking
[David Ebeltoft]: about, which in the industry
we call them AVOD, which is advertising video
[David Ebeltoft]: on demand. And those are the
free platforms that every 20 minutes you and
[David Ebeltoft]: I have to watch an ad, which
really is how we used to watch films on television
[David Ebeltoft]: anyway.
[Sean Lukasik]: Right.
[David Ebeltoft]: Those streaming platforms
are actually quite beneficial to a lot of films
[David Ebeltoft]: because you see a one to $1
correlation. Each time you watch a film, if
[David Ebeltoft]: you wanna watch the never
ending story on one of these free platforms
[David Ebeltoft]: like Tubi or Voodoo are two
of the big ones. Each time that's watched,
[David Ebeltoft]: those ads are played and then
the films get a percentage of those ads. So
[David Ebeltoft]: it's a little bit actually
better correlation to making money. because
[David Ebeltoft]: there's advertising money
to then split up. And if your film's
[Sean Lukasik]: I wondered,
[David Ebeltoft]: not viewed, you don't make
it.
[Sean Lukasik]: yeah, I wondered about that
because I'm thinking, you know, there are still
[Sean Lukasik]: different ways that I pay for
content. And on sites like to be or even YouTube,
[Sean Lukasik]: you, I'm not paying, but I know
that I have to sit through an ad or two or
[Sean Lukasik]: more if it's a longer feature.
And those go to the creators. I mean, that
[Sean Lukasik]: ad revenue, you know, a big
chunk of it goes to the creators. And when,
[Sean Lukasik]: when it's ad free and a subscription
based like Netflix, I'm understanding that
[Sean Lukasik]: that, you know, there's not
as much but I've also rented and purchased
[Sean Lukasik]: movies through iTunes, or you
pay, you know, one price for either a television
[Sean Lukasik]: series or a specific movie.
And that price is anywhere from eight to $15
[Sean Lukasik]: or so for the one piece of content.
Does that affect the way you get paid once
[Sean Lukasik]: it once whether it's residuals
or right up front? Do those different payment
[Sean Lukasik]: models affect, you know, trickle
down to the writers and actors?
[David Ebeltoft]: They should, but
[Sean Lukasik]: Sure.
[David Ebeltoft]: unfortunately, the rental
system, and thank you for renting, because
[David Ebeltoft]: that's a big issue, is a lot
of people nowadays, and I'm sure you've heard
[David Ebeltoft]: people in your day-to-day
life, say, oh, don't worry, I'll wait till
[David Ebeltoft]: it comes on Netflix. Just
like we were talking about how that viewership
[David Ebeltoft]: really, really shifted from
theater to VHS to purchase to broadcast. Now
[David Ebeltoft]: it's really shifted to, okay,
I'm excited about it and I'll see it in the
[David Ebeltoft]: theater, or I'll wait for
it for my monthly subscription price. And a
[David Ebeltoft]: lot
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: of people skip that middle
step that you and I both do. I love to rent
[David Ebeltoft]: films because I don't
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: wanna wait all the time. But
for the most part, those film rentals would
[David Ebeltoft]: trickle down to residuals.
So when you as a consumer, spend that 399 of
[David Ebeltoft]: a film that's been out for
a year, or sometimes 1999 if it was just released
[David Ebeltoft]: or is still in theater, that's
a dollar to dollar conversion that is still
[David Ebeltoft]: covered in the WGA contracts,
which is great because the last time the WGA,
[David Ebeltoft]: sort of negotiated these contracts,
that pay, that rental fee was still part of
[David Ebeltoft]: it. And the residuals are
calculated off of that. So each time you do
[David Ebeltoft]: rent, that should trickle
down to the writer. But the stuff that almost
[David Ebeltoft]: all of us wait for, unfortunately
Netflix and those monthly Amazon Prime, those
[David Ebeltoft]: monthly things, there's no
trickling down. That's where I don't know the
[David Ebeltoft]: percentage. I'm just gonna
say probably 75% plus wait to do it, you know,
[David Ebeltoft]: to watch a film during that
time.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm
[David Ebeltoft]: So.
[Sean Lukasik]: hmm. Yeah, okay. That makes
sense. And now, so here we are this, you know,
[Sean Lukasik]: we just described how we how
we got here. And, you know, for people who
[Sean Lukasik]: are not familiar with your work
specifically, I thought this was a good place
[Sean Lukasik]: to sort of interject maybe how
your brain works a little bit. I don't know
[Sean Lukasik]: how deep we want to want to
go
[David Ebeltoft]: Ha
[Sean Lukasik]: into
[David Ebeltoft]: ha
[Sean Lukasik]: that
[David Ebeltoft]: ha!
[Sean Lukasik]: conversation. Because you you,
you put some pretty suspenseful, dramatic,
[Sean Lukasik]: often terrifying work out there.
And I think it's terrifying because it sort
[Sean Lukasik]: of preys upon the fear that
we all hold inside of us or some of the images
[Sean Lukasik]: that we might see in our own
nightmares as opposed to totally made up science
[Sean Lukasik]: fiction, you know, out of the
out of nowhere, which has a place too. And
[Sean Lukasik]: I know you're working on a comic
series as well. But so I say all that to say,
[Sean Lukasik]: in your very interesting mind,
what does the future look like if things work
[Sean Lukasik]: out as favorably as they can
for the writers in this process and coming
[Sean Lukasik]: out of it.
[David Ebeltoft]: Right, well thank you for
those kind words. I really hope my fears aren't
[David Ebeltoft]: implanted too much in your
noggin and that
[Sean Lukasik]: No,
[David Ebeltoft]: they
[Sean Lukasik]: they
[David Ebeltoft]: can
[Sean Lukasik]: were
[David Ebeltoft]: dissipate.
[Sean Lukasik]: already there, but you just
[David Ebeltoft]: Oh,
[Sean Lukasik]: you just
[David Ebeltoft]: good,
[Sean Lukasik]: draw
[David Ebeltoft]: I just,
[Sean Lukasik]: them out every time I watch.
[David Ebeltoft]: I hope, yeah, sorry about
that. Yeah,
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: I hope they can dissipate
with a round of golf, a good beer and don't
[David Ebeltoft]: watch NeverEnding Story. Let's
shift to maybe watching like Uncle Buck, John
[David Ebeltoft]: Candy's
[Sean Lukasik]: That's right, yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: classic comedy. Yeah, you
know, it's funny. I broadly speaking with the
[David Ebeltoft]: writer's guilt strike and
the screen actor's guilt strike, I'm pretty
[David Ebeltoft]: optimistic. I'm a pretty optimistic,
friendly fellow. I truly get my demons and
[David Ebeltoft]: fears out on the page, which
is why all
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm.
[David Ebeltoft]: of my films are, yeah, they're
dark and they're gritty and they're usually
[David Ebeltoft]: quite depressing. But yeah,
and that is a wonderfully therapeutic and cathartic
[David Ebeltoft]: way to write. And I do love
audiences and I watch a lot of those films
[David Ebeltoft]: too. I love that audiences
sometimes don't want to be happy, they don't
[David Ebeltoft]: want to be cheery. You know,
we saw during the pandemic and during COVID,
[David Ebeltoft]: we saw tons of pandemic and
COVID related films being watched
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: more than the ones I thought
people would watch, which is like Uncle Buck.
[David Ebeltoft]: I thought that would be binged
like crazy,
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: but no, things like Contagion
were being binged like crazy and
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: tons of zombie films. So sometimes
like our escapism, we want to see how... great
[David Ebeltoft]: our world is by then comparing
it to something similar. And we're like, Oh,
[David Ebeltoft]: thank God, at least nobody's
eating our brains yet. You know,
[Sean Lukasik]: Exactly.
[David Ebeltoft]: maybe the media.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah. But okay, I hope this
situation plays out. Man, that's a tough one.
[David Ebeltoft]: I mean, I really hope that
we're heard. That's our biggest thing. Because
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: right now, we are the ones
creating in and sacrificing for this medium.
[David Ebeltoft]: that we're basically asking
for monetary compensation and we're asking
[David Ebeltoft]: to make sure that AI doesn't
come and really artificial intelligence doesn't
[David Ebeltoft]: come and completely decimate
our careers. And it sorta stinks because we're
[David Ebeltoft]: not being heard by the ones
that really, they're the ones that pay the
[David Ebeltoft]: bills, right? And... they're
the ones that are saying, hey, we rely on writers,
[David Ebeltoft]: we rely on actors and actresses,
we rely on these people. You guys are familial
[David Ebeltoft]: collaborators, but they're
also stiff arming us in terms of basic human
[David Ebeltoft]: needs, like a living wage,
and to make sure that Skynet doesn't just ruin
[David Ebeltoft]: everything. So I feel like
currently, the strike is really about being
[David Ebeltoft]: heard and ensuring that we
actually get back to the table. But the ones
[David Ebeltoft]: that need to invite us back
are the studios. And unfortunately, I think
[David Ebeltoft]: that disconnect will happen
probably until the fall. I think that the studios
[David Ebeltoft]: will deal with the Screen
Actors Guild first because the Screen Actors
[David Ebeltoft]: Guild is very big. I think
they have something like 160,000 members. And
[David Ebeltoft]: right now, actors and actresses
have halted production to a complete standstill.
[David Ebeltoft]: So the studios will deal with
them first and then they'll get to the writers
[David Ebeltoft]: guild. And the writers guild
will probably have a little bit of benefit
[David Ebeltoft]: within that because they'll
be able to see what the screen actor guild
[David Ebeltoft]: got in terms of their residuals
and in terms of their requests. And they'll
[David Ebeltoft]: be able to sort of piggyback
a little bit off of that. But what writers
[David Ebeltoft]: are asking for and what actors
and actresses are asking for are totally different.
[David Ebeltoft]: And so... I think that even
though we do have at least a few more months
[David Ebeltoft]: of this, which is unfortunate,
I think what you guys as an audience will see
[David Ebeltoft]: coming out of this is you
guys are going to see a lot more reality programming
[David Ebeltoft]: coming in the fall,
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: which is unfortunate. There
are a few things that we're able to squeak
[David Ebeltoft]: by in production, but these
studios actually did what they called a strike-proof
[David Ebeltoft]: plan, which they've actually
had in work. They've had it in the cogs and
[David Ebeltoft]: in the wheels of the machine
for the longest time. and they unleashed it
[David Ebeltoft]: recently. So I think audience-wise,
we're gonna see a lot more reality programming
[David Ebeltoft]: and I think we're gonna see
a lot more sort of relicense season of classic
[David Ebeltoft]: properties. Like the two we've
already
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: talked about today, Uncle
Buck, Never Ending Story. I think we're gonna
[David Ebeltoft]: see a lot more just sort of
regurgitation of great films that you and I
[David Ebeltoft]: have already seen, but the
studios and the streamers are just gonna put
[David Ebeltoft]: back up to their top to make
it look
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: like they're circling back
in content. I think
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: once we get out of this, there's
unfortunately gonna be some writers, there's
[David Ebeltoft]: gonna be some actors and actresses,
there's gonna be some casualties, which is
[David Ebeltoft]: unfortunate because we're
already close to the 100 day mark, which is
[David Ebeltoft]: almost as long as the 2007,
2008 writer's strike that was one of the longest.
[David Ebeltoft]: And it'll probably go 100
days more. And a lot of writers just won't
[David Ebeltoft]: be able to support themselves
anymore with their writing because nobody's
[David Ebeltoft]: buying. And it's already ridiculously
competitive to begin with. So... So it's going
[David Ebeltoft]: to be extremely unfortunate
that some will have to go and seek other employment.
[David Ebeltoft]: Same with
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: actors and actresses. So I
think that's going to be really sad. And that's
[David Ebeltoft]: probably where my dark and
gritty and depressing writer
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: sort of comes in. But, you
know, for the most part, the film and television
[David Ebeltoft]: industry, we will continue
to rock on. We will continue to create and
[David Ebeltoft]: write great films for worldwide
enjoyment. I mean, I do feel like right now
[David Ebeltoft]: we're gonna have to suffer
a little bit and some of the audience is gonna
[David Ebeltoft]: have to suffer a little bit.
But I do think in the end, it will be able
[David Ebeltoft]: to hopefully reset the industry
that makes sure that we should really, as a
[David Ebeltoft]: collective culture, not just
within the studio system, really not only support
[David Ebeltoft]: but also champion a lot of
the creators that are at the very, very front
[David Ebeltoft]: of the process.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: I love cheering for Oppenheimer.
and Barbie and these huge names attached for
[David Ebeltoft]: it. Those two films right
now, it's really great that they're doing really,
[David Ebeltoft]: really well. But there's,
you know, 5,000 other films sort of quote unquote
[David Ebeltoft]: beneath their budget level
and their marketing level that also need champion.
[David Ebeltoft]: And the creator behind that
really need champion. So my optimism sort of
[David Ebeltoft]: says like, hey, it'd be cool
if we're able to press a reset button after
[David Ebeltoft]: these strikes to sort of go
back to a more. And this is very, very optimistic
[David Ebeltoft]: of me, but more utopian idea
of how we view films and then how we talk about
[David Ebeltoft]: the creators, like the writers
and the directors and the actors and actresses
[David Ebeltoft]: behind.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah. And I think, you know,
there's, there's some pretty not so distant,
[Sean Lukasik]: uh, memories of, uh, a time
when we were all stuck in our homes and, and
[Sean Lukasik]: just trying to watch and consume
whatever we could. And at that time, some production
[Sean Lukasik]: halted as well for, for totally
different reasons. Um, but you know, I, I think
[Sean Lukasik]: every time this happens, there's
this sort of reminder that, you know, even
[Sean Lukasik]: though I might have a guilty
pleasure in watching something like Love is
[Sean Lukasik]: Blind, which there it is now
it's recorded, I've set it into
[David Ebeltoft]: It's
[Sean Lukasik]: a microphone.
[David Ebeltoft]: a great, it's a good film.
It's a good film.
[Sean Lukasik]: But if that was the only thing
that I had to watch, boy, that would not be
[Sean Lukasik]: good.
[David Ebeltoft]: Hahaha
[Sean Lukasik]: And I think, you know, my one
of my hopes is that we collectively Um, understand
[Sean Lukasik]: the impact that this artistic
medium has on our lives and how important it
[Sean Lukasik]: is not only for distractions,
but for, for opportunities for storytelling.
[Sean Lukasik]: The one example that you just
shared about Barbie, for example, you know,
[Sean Lukasik]: the, the conversations that
are happening around that movie are so much
[Sean Lukasik]: bigger than the movie itself,
then, then the script or the actors or whatever
[Sean Lukasik]: goes into it. Um, And that's
what we're losing. You know, that's what we're
[Sean Lukasik]: missing. When people like you
are not getting paid when we're when we're
[Sean Lukasik]: missing the stories that are
important for having the conversations that
[Sean Lukasik]: we need to have as a society,
or even just around the dinner table, or just
[Sean Lukasik]: the entertainment that we have
as families as friends. It's there's a real
[Sean Lukasik]: big piece missing and you know,
God bless the streaming industry that brought
[Sean Lukasik]: that front and center and gave
us that opportunity to access it so much more
[Sean Lukasik]: easily, but to not bring you
along to not bring the actors along with them
[Sean Lukasik]: and with that success is a travesty.
And I hate to see that this is how it needs
[Sean Lukasik]: to happen. But I'm glad that
it's happening so that we at least have the
[Sean Lukasik]: potential for that utopian future
that you just described.
[David Ebeltoft]: I think yeah, thank you for
those words and I think you're totally right
[David Ebeltoft]: the streamers and I and again,
they're not They're not evil. They they do
[David Ebeltoft]: some evil things for the
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: but for
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: the most
[Sean Lukasik]: Okay. So,
[David Ebeltoft]: part
[Sean Lukasik]: I'm going to go ahead and
[David Ebeltoft]: they
[Sean Lukasik]: start the presentation.
[David Ebeltoft]: have brought
[Sean Lukasik]: So, I'm
[David Ebeltoft]: You know what I used to have
to fight for I used to have to fight to see
[David Ebeltoft]: foreign cinema. I used to
have to fight to see indie cinema
[Sean Lukasik]: going to start the presentation.
[David Ebeltoft]: you know, I grew
[Sean Lukasik]: So, I'm
[David Ebeltoft]: up
[Sean Lukasik]: going
[David Ebeltoft]: in
[Sean Lukasik]: to
[David Ebeltoft]: a
[Sean Lukasik]: start
[David Ebeltoft]: small town in the Midwest
and our local college library was the oasis
[David Ebeltoft]: for any film, you know, that
wasn't a huge blockbuster. And, but we had
[David Ebeltoft]: to like, you know, you, you
had to reserve these tapes way in advance.
[David Ebeltoft]: So I could keep on going on
and on about sort of how streaming has affected
[David Ebeltoft]: us for the good, but man,
we are having those global conversations.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: I'm able to see amazing, you
know, films from Vietnam and you know, from,
[David Ebeltoft]: you know, Argentina that open
up my eyes and open up my empathy because I'm
[David Ebeltoft]: experiencing it through the
silver screen. Right?
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: It is truly storytelling and
the film medium is truly that amazing campfire
[David Ebeltoft]: that we would all sit around
and we'd all tell these awesome stories. But
[David Ebeltoft]: now that campfire is super
big and global and it's just a iPad screen
[David Ebeltoft]: or your television screen.
That's what that's
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: the glow that's flickering
on our faces right now. So, and streaming did
[David Ebeltoft]: do a great job and they still
do a great job of bringing those stories to
[David Ebeltoft]: our homes and our hearts very,
very easily. I think where they have tripped
[David Ebeltoft]: up and where we're trying
to, yeah, fight for a good paycheck, we still
[David Ebeltoft]: want to work with them, we
still want to share our stories. They have
[David Ebeltoft]: hundreds and hundreds of amazing
executives that also want to champion writer's
[David Ebeltoft]: stories and director's stories
and actors and actresses' visions and voices.
[David Ebeltoft]: But I think what happened
is that they started their medium without worrying
[David Ebeltoft]: about residuals and they haven't
had to worry about it until now. So
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: if I was to play devil's advocate
and all of a sudden they're like, whoa, we
[David Ebeltoft]: can't switch the way we operate.
Like this is how we operate, this is how we
[David Ebeltoft]: make money. Now you guys are
asking us to go to a system that you should
[David Ebeltoft]: have asked us to implement
10 years ago. I can see that and I can see
[David Ebeltoft]: their struggle, but at the
same time. They can't keep
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: short changing. You know,
there was a great article about, I haven't
[David Ebeltoft]: seen the show yet, my wife
watches it, The Bear, have you seen The Bear
[David Ebeltoft]: yet? That
[Sean Lukasik]: Oh yeah,
[David Ebeltoft]: chef
[Sean Lukasik]: yeah. I'm
[David Ebeltoft]: show,
[Sean Lukasik]: about
[David Ebeltoft]: is
[Sean Lukasik]: halfway
[David Ebeltoft]: it good?
[Sean Lukasik]: through this most recent season.
Yeah, that's great.
[David Ebeltoft]: Okay, yeah, my wife says it's
amazing. And, you know, for an example, because
[David Ebeltoft]: I haven't gotten into television
at all during this because I'm not a television
[David Ebeltoft]: writer, but you know, most
of the Writers Guild is made up of television
[David Ebeltoft]: writers. And when streamers
wanted to compete in those streaming wars,
[David Ebeltoft]: so many more programs are
being made, so many more shows are being made.
[David Ebeltoft]: Well, that's really good for
writers because we get hired more. But with
[David Ebeltoft]: more shows, that means...
less budget for each show. So a lot of those
[David Ebeltoft]: amazing shows like The Bear,
man, their budgets got so packed and stripped
[David Ebeltoft]: down that one of the writers
was paid $40,000 for a script on that show,
[David Ebeltoft]: no residuals. So he's not
able to share in the success of this show that's
[David Ebeltoft]: a worldwide phenomenon, nominated
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: for Emmys, and he got 40,000
as a, not a base, but that's the base pay,
[David Ebeltoft]: not his take home. His take
home is then obviously taxes, like all of us
[David Ebeltoft]: Americans, or at least good
Americans pay. And then also within the industry
[David Ebeltoft]: system, you pay your agent
and your manager, which usually equals about
[David Ebeltoft]: 20%. So I'm pretty sure that
writer's take home for an extremely successful
[David Ebeltoft]: television show is 20,000
for the year. And that
[Sean Lukasik]: Geez.
[David Ebeltoft]: I think is below poverty.
So,
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: you know, that's sort of where
the streamers really need to step up and say,
[David Ebeltoft]: yo, thank you for creating
the bear. And for creating this amazing series,
[David Ebeltoft]: we will
[Sean Lukasik]: Yep.
[David Ebeltoft]: let you share in its success,
because we are definitely feeling its success
[David Ebeltoft]: as a studio. It would be nice
to let the writer and the actor and the actress
[David Ebeltoft]: and the director share in
that as well.
[Sean Lukasik]: Well, yeah, I couldn't agree
more. Let's talk about your work a little bit
[Sean Lukasik]: for a moment. I know that you
have a film in the can now premiered at Tribeca
[Sean Lukasik]: Congratulations on that
[David Ebeltoft]: Thank you.
[Sean Lukasik]: and you know, one of the pieces
of good news for us as viewers and listeners
[Sean Lukasik]: is that While there's a lull
in fall and maybe early winter will Get to
[Sean Lukasik]: see that. I believe you said
you're anticipating it'll be more widely available
[Sean Lukasik]: in January. So can you talk
a little bit about Blood for Dust and what
[Sean Lukasik]: you're excited about with this
project?
[David Ebeltoft]: Oh, you know, and I probably
should have mentioned this prior, but I, due
[David Ebeltoft]: to my guild rules, I'm not
allowed to talk about my films.
[Sean Lukasik]: Okay.
[David Ebeltoft]: It is a, I know, I feel bad,
Sean. I should have let you know that prior.
[David Ebeltoft]: But I'll explain the rule
really fast and how it's also really affecting,
[David Ebeltoft]: you can talk about it. So
what you just said, that's great. Everybody
[David Ebeltoft]: listen to what Sean said and
take note. But. Part of the both guilds, part
[David Ebeltoft]: of the writers guild and the
screen actors guild is that we shouldn't promote
[David Ebeltoft]: our own material during a
strike. Because even though our promotion,
[David Ebeltoft]: especially for a writer of
my stature, I'm not a big name, I'm not an
[David Ebeltoft]: industry name, but any promotion
we do for a film can get a dollar for that
[David Ebeltoft]: studio. So. we are restricted
from doing any promotion. So although our film
[David Ebeltoft]: did premiere at Tribeca, and
stereotypically I would be able to do the press
[David Ebeltoft]: there and I'd be able to walk
the red carpet and have pictures taken of me
[David Ebeltoft]: and all that fun stuff that
doesn't happen too often.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: When the writers went on strike,
I was unable to do that. And what you're seeing
[David Ebeltoft]: right now, I think it happened
with Oppenheimer, is that they did the red
[David Ebeltoft]: carpet. But then once the
Screen Actors Guild called a strike, they all
[David Ebeltoft]: walked out of the film. And
it's just to sort of show solidarity and to
[David Ebeltoft]: ensure that, hey, studios,
we provide more services than just our writing.
[David Ebeltoft]: Because studios will require
writers, directors, actors and actresses to
[David Ebeltoft]: promote a film. And a lot
of times that's baked into our contracts, like,
[David Ebeltoft]: hey, you need to do this promotion,
you need to tweet about it, you need to do
[David Ebeltoft]: this about it. So when we
went on strike, we fully strike. And... The
[David Ebeltoft]: reason why it's so, I think
it's great that the Screen Actors Guild joined
[David Ebeltoft]: us because it shows how important
our message as the Writers Guild is and how
[David Ebeltoft]: important these issues are.
But I think they have way more clout in that
[David Ebeltoft]: realm. So what you're seeing
in the trades right now and what might be trickling
[David Ebeltoft]: down to an everyday audience
is, oh my God, this huge film is gonna play
[David Ebeltoft]: at this huge film festival,
the Toronto International Film Festival. but
[David Ebeltoft]: the actors and actresses won't
be there to promote. How's that gonna
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: affect the film? So yeah,
I apologize for throwing a wrench in your very
[David Ebeltoft]: kind question, but that's
one of the things that we have to do on The
[David Ebeltoft]: Stripe.
[Sean Lukasik]: No, and I appreciate that explanation.
I don't know that I would normally leave it
[Sean Lukasik]: in if I really stepped in it
during an interview, but
[David Ebeltoft]: No.
[Sean Lukasik]: I think that's important to
hear. I think it's important to leave that
[Sean Lukasik]: in and for people to understand.
That helps me understand that the studios are
[Sean Lukasik]: leaning on the writers and actors,
even after their job is done with all the promotions
[Sean Lukasik]: because you can't put a... studio
exec on the red carpet and expect the same
[Sean Lukasik]: kind of promotion of the movie.
That's not how it works. So yeah, that really
[Sean Lukasik]: drives the point home that,
you know, the writers, the actors are helping
[Sean Lukasik]: it all along with the success
and not seeing any of the residuals along the
[Sean Lukasik]: way. So that really brings
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah,
[Sean Lukasik]: it home. I appreciate that.
[David Ebeltoft]: and yeah, 100%, I'm glad you
asked the question. And also, you know, we
[David Ebeltoft]: don't get paid for promotion.
So a lot of
[Sean Lukasik]: Right.
[David Ebeltoft]: times we're required to continue
on with the film in terms to help that film
[David Ebeltoft]: achieve more financial success.
And a lot of times, historically, writers,
[David Ebeltoft]: directors, actors, actresses
would do that because the more they promote
[David Ebeltoft]: it, the more they'll see those
residuals. But guess
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: what? With those residuals
decimated, so. Right now it is sort of like
[David Ebeltoft]: a free service that's provided.
And I know some of the big guys and gals, the
[David Ebeltoft]: huge names that we know of,
yeah, I'm sure they have great things in their
[David Ebeltoft]: contract and their clauses
that say this is how much we'll do and this
[David Ebeltoft]: is how much we'll make for
our promotion. But for most of us, we do it
[David Ebeltoft]: because we love it and we
want people to see our films. And so, yeah,
[David Ebeltoft]: it is hard to pull back because
as a creator, you wanna talk about what you're
[David Ebeltoft]: excited about. And you just
want genuinely, you genuinely want to have
[David Ebeltoft]: those conversations that you
were talking about, that we should have over
[David Ebeltoft]: the dinner table. So it is,
it is tough to put the old gag order on oneself
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah,
[David Ebeltoft]: during
[Sean Lukasik]: yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: this time. But yeah, for a
good cause.
[Sean Lukasik]: No, totally. And I know one
of the one of the real contentious points that
[Sean Lukasik]: we've arrived at as a film industry
is this conversation around artificial intelligence.
[Sean Lukasik]: And you mentioned it a little
bit earlier. And that's certainly, you know,
[Sean Lukasik]: part of the reason for these
negotiations is because nobody really knows
[Sean Lukasik]: or understands where artificial
intelligence is going. And, you know, who's
[Sean Lukasik]: to say that in the next year,
I can't open up chat GPT and say, hey, write
[Sean Lukasik]: a movie in the style of David
Ebeltoft and
[David Ebeltoft]: I'm going to go to bed.
[Sean Lukasik]: see what it spits out. And of
course, you know, who's to say that Netflix
[Sean Lukasik]: can't do something like that
in the future either. So what are your thoughts
[Sean Lukasik]: on artificial intelligence and
how it affects your work or potentially draws
[Sean Lukasik]: from your work, you know, more
eerily as we move forward?
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah, and you're hitting the
two big ones, the effect on work and how AI
[David Ebeltoft]: draws from my work. I think,
you know, my disclaimer, I'm not anti-technology
[David Ebeltoft]: and I'm not anti-AI. AI is
a tool, right? And when used properly, it can
[David Ebeltoft]: really benefit many professions.
Just because we have been talking about writing
[David Ebeltoft]: and because I am a writer,
I rely heavily on AI to fix my grammar and
[David Ebeltoft]: my
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm.
[David Ebeltoft]: misspelling.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: A lot of the screenwriting
programs have AI that help find gaps within
[David Ebeltoft]: our screenplay due to human
error, aka my error. So when I
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: hit the return key a few too
many times, that can actually translate to
[David Ebeltoft]: more dollars being spent if
I don't catch that. And AI is like, yo, David,
[David Ebeltoft]: you made a mistake. You should
delete these two extra returns. Research, my
[David Ebeltoft]: god. AI is so pivotal in helping
sift through the endless, endless amounts of
[David Ebeltoft]: the internet to make sure
that I know how to poison somebody within my
[David Ebeltoft]: script properly. Um,
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: don't look in my search history,
please.
[Sean Lukasik]: Ha ha.
[David Ebeltoft]: Um, but it's a technology
that you just said you hit the nail on the
[David Ebeltoft]: head for short is it's moved
so fast and it's developed so quickly where
[David Ebeltoft]: I think where it gets really,
really scary is when it's not used as a tool,
[David Ebeltoft]: right? When the tool becomes
a threat. And
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: our whole conversation so
far has really been about corporate America.
[David Ebeltoft]: I mean, Hollywood for its
dreamlike stature and its palm trees and for
[David Ebeltoft]: its glitz and glamor is an
industry and they answer to Wall Street. So
[David Ebeltoft]: it's a massive industry that
has a track record of saving money. And a lot
[David Ebeltoft]: of times, What we're seeing
right now is that we see that tool, AI, just
[David Ebeltoft]: like you said, chat GPT. If
you're looking
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: at it through the massive
troves of Hollywood number and data crunchers,
[David Ebeltoft]: and they see an Excel spreadsheet
cell that says, David, screenwriter, costs,
[David Ebeltoft]: let's just say $80,000, chat
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: GPT and a few prompts cost
zero dollars,
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: that's where it can get really,
really scary. And we're starting to see it
[David Ebeltoft]: a little bit within the art
world, within the digital space, within animation
[David Ebeltoft]: space in particular. I'm sure
you see it in the marketing and media space
[David Ebeltoft]: as well. I have friends that
work in the graphic design business that their
[David Ebeltoft]: clients that used to say,
please create a proposal, are now sending them
[David Ebeltoft]: proposals created by AI. And
then they, the human graphic designer, just
[David Ebeltoft]: puts polishes on it. So they're...
20 hours per project, there's now cut down
[David Ebeltoft]: to two hours per project because
AI
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: took large parts of the, you
know, so that's what we're worried about with
[David Ebeltoft]: in terms of writing. Now,
AI I don't think will ever replace creativity
[David Ebeltoft]: and vision and heart and human
empathy, and I
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: don't believe that it will
ever get good enough to replace that, but we're
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: talking about corporate America
again, right? And I like to think about the
[David Ebeltoft]: company Hershey's, which Sean,
you and I live in the same area. We live pretty
[David Ebeltoft]: close to Hershey, Pennsylvania.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: Hershey's, a chocolate company,
is notorious for removing enough of their chocolate,
[David Ebeltoft]: enough of their cocoa butter
from their chocolate to save a dime, even though
[David Ebeltoft]: they're a chocolate company.
So when
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: that's the mentality that
we as writers have to worry about. when Hershey's
[David Ebeltoft]: is saying, that's okay. We
will know, it's okay if we don't have to be
[David Ebeltoft]: legally called milk chocolate
anymore.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: People will melt it in between
a marshmallow roasted on a fire and two graham
[David Ebeltoft]: crackers, and nobody will
care if it's a bunch of
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: chemicals or real cocoa butter.
But that's the way the film industry thinks
[David Ebeltoft]: as well, unfortunately. And
that's what we're worried about, is we're worried
[David Ebeltoft]: about those machines not doing
a great... human empathetic creative job. We're
[David Ebeltoft]: worried about people being
like, ah, it's good enough. Let's get that
[David Ebeltoft]: script
[Sean Lukasik]: Right.
[David Ebeltoft]: out there. Let's get into
production. Most of the world won't care. So
[David Ebeltoft]: that's sort of the first worry
is monetary for sure.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: And.
[Sean Lukasik]: And, oh, go ahead.
[David Ebeltoft]: Oh, no, you go. I was going
to go into the second worry, which was really
[David Ebeltoft]: that sort of training model.
If so, you do want to go
[Sean Lukasik]: No,
[David Ebeltoft]: or should
[Sean Lukasik]: please.
[David Ebeltoft]: I?
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah, yeah. Continue. Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah. So that second worry
is what you said is really how AI is being
[David Ebeltoft]: trained. And I'm not the tech
expert, but really what I do know is that they're
[David Ebeltoft]: being trained on massive amounts
of published material. Now
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: that published material, a
lot of scripts, you know, mine are out there
[David Ebeltoft]: in the world on online. A
lot of times I don't put them online myself,
[David Ebeltoft]: but they just happen to get
out there. But they are, I do have copyrights
[David Ebeltoft]: or the companies that hired
me have the copyrights to those scripts, but
[David Ebeltoft]: AI is able to sift through
copyrighted material and train itself in such
[David Ebeltoft]: a fast way that it's not like
a college student reading my script for educational
[David Ebeltoft]: purposes. It's
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: really being, you know, uh,
ripped through and baked and all of the months
[David Ebeltoft]: and sometimes, let's not even
talk about the years of experience that I needed
[David Ebeltoft]: to get to that point of creating
a script that then took a few months, they're
[David Ebeltoft]: able to rip through that and
re-kick out parts of my work, parts of what
[David Ebeltoft]: I would do if you said, hey,
let's make sure that this is a David Iveltoff
[David Ebeltoft]: script in your prompt, then
that is basically AI's a plagiarism machine
[David Ebeltoft]: in a weird way. And the developers
of these models, ChatGPT is the big one, they
[David Ebeltoft]: claim fair use. I'd love to
hear a Paisano's podcast about fair use and
[David Ebeltoft]: what
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: is truly fair about it and
what's unfair about it. But that's what really
[David Ebeltoft]: raises the alarms is that
they're using so much of our published material
[David Ebeltoft]: and our literary material
as source material and we are not being compensated
[David Ebeltoft]: by it. to then have a robot
possibly kick out something that we actually
[David Ebeltoft]: did, but also they aren't
able to copyright whatever AI kicks out. So
[David Ebeltoft]: it's a very, very swampy,
weird world right now. But the way it's being
[David Ebeltoft]: trained is off of our hard
work, our sweat, our tears. And it stinks to
[David Ebeltoft]: think about that then replacing
us at the same time.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah,
[David Ebeltoft]: So.
[Sean Lukasik]: right. Right. Yeah. And, and,
you know, I'm in website design. And if there's
[Sean Lukasik]: a particular page that I don't
want Google to crawl, I just throw a little
[Sean Lukasik]: snippet of code on there, or
in some cases, even flip a switch. And that
[Sean Lukasik]: tells the search bots, hey,
don't index this page, you would think there's
[Sean Lukasik]: something just as just as easily
that could be coded into copywritten work.
[Sean Lukasik]: when it comes to artificial
intelligence, like, hey, you're not allowed
[Sean Lukasik]: to crawl this page. Um, and
you know, it's amazing that we aren't there
[Sean Lukasik]: yet. Um, because I'm sure there
are lots of people who thought about these
[Sean Lukasik]: things and want to say, oops,
I didn't think about that, you know, later.
[Sean Lukasik]: Um, but it there's, there's
some easy answers. There's some very complex
[Sean Lukasik]: and difficult answers. And,
uh, and I, I hope, and I understand that that's
[Sean Lukasik]: what. everyone is trying to
sort out with these conversations and negotiations.
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah, and that's interesting.
I haven't even heard of the industry taking
[David Ebeltoft]: those steps to protect that
copyrighted material. Is it happening? I sure
[David Ebeltoft]: hope so. I
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: think what happens is that
just because, you know, like the Academy, the
[David Ebeltoft]: folks that run the Oscars,
the Academy asks for every script that goes
[David Ebeltoft]: into, that releases in a year,
they request the script from the writer for
[David Ebeltoft]: their library that is used
by universities. worldwide. So when I have
[David Ebeltoft]: a film release, the Academy
of Motion Pictures and Sciences, they email
[David Ebeltoft]: me and they're like, hey,
David, can you please share us with the script?
[David Ebeltoft]: We'll upload it to our secure
database. Well, that secure database is uploaded,
[David Ebeltoft]: but that is downloaded by
all these other sites that just want to make
[David Ebeltoft]: those available. So those
sites, it's going to be an interesting policing
[David Ebeltoft]: problem, I think,
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: which as we know, the internet
has a lot of trouble being policed
[Sean Lukasik]: Oh, yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: or... So even with great ideas
like that, it's gonna be interesting to see,
[David Ebeltoft]: and it's really gonna be interesting
to see if AI pulls an amazing line. Luke, you
[David Ebeltoft]: are my father.
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: If you pull that amazing line
from a script, George Lucas, then if that comes
[David Ebeltoft]: up in another film, is that
now copyrighted? Like what is the, but it has
[David Ebeltoft]: nothing to do with. you know,
Darth Vader and Star Wars and tattooing and
[David Ebeltoft]: arms being cut off and, you
know, all this fun stuff with the force. If
[David Ebeltoft]: you remove all that, is it
still copyrighted? Probably not, definitely
[David Ebeltoft]: not
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: an expert, but it's gonna
be really interesting over the next few years
[David Ebeltoft]: to see how this pans out.
And I think the Writers Guild is really just
[David Ebeltoft]: trying to get ahead of it,
because we didn't get, even though I wasn't
[David Ebeltoft]: in the Guild at the time,
we didn't get ahead of streaming and we didn't
[David Ebeltoft]: get ahead of residuals because
we just didn't see it moving that fast. We
[David Ebeltoft]: didn't see
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: the internet speeds getting
so fast where we could literally download and
[David Ebeltoft]: watch films in minutes. And
[Sean Lukasik]: Mm-hmm.
[David Ebeltoft]: because we didn't react fast
enough there, we're behind the eight ball.
[David Ebeltoft]: And I think with AI, some
writers are really hoping that it's sort of
[David Ebeltoft]: like Bitcoin or Ethereum or
some of these other sort of fads. And I'm not
[David Ebeltoft]: offending all the other financial
Bitcoin investors here, but within film, they
[David Ebeltoft]: really thought Bitcoin was
gonna fully finance films nowadays. That didn't
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah.
[David Ebeltoft]: pan out. Some people are really
hoping for that, but I think the guild is really
[David Ebeltoft]: just trying to get ahead of
the curve so it doesn't burn us down the road
[David Ebeltoft]: if it happens.
[Sean Lukasik]: Yeah, and Godspeed to anyone
who's trying to get ahead of technology
[David Ebeltoft]: of tech.
[Sean Lukasik]: and understand the role
[David Ebeltoft]: Yeah.
[Sean Lukasik]: it's going to play.
[David Ebeltoft]: Oh my God, you're right.
[Sean Lukasik]: But I appreciate, you know,
the opportunity to talk with you about it.
[Sean Lukasik]: As with all of the episodes
of this podcast so far, this is just a tiny
[Sean Lukasik]: little piece of what is happening
across the internet, what's happening as a
[Sean Lukasik]: result of the internet. And
it's been really interesting talking with you
[Sean Lukasik]: about how we got here and where
we're going in this little tiny snippet of
[Sean Lukasik]: time while the strike is happening.
And so I appreciate your time and I wish you
[Sean Lukasik]: the best of luck in terms of
that utopian future that we're both picturing.
[David Ebeltoft]: Nice. Thanks, John. It's been
fun and thanks for the kind words and support.
[David Ebeltoft]: Really appreciate it. Now
let's all go watch Uncle Buck, Never Ending
[David Ebeltoft]: Story.
[Sean Lukasik]: A hundred percent. Yes. I, I
plan on it.
[David Ebeltoft]: Okay, good.