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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and I am thrilled to welcome back doctor Philip Mamalakis, author of this classic Orthodox parenting book, Parenting Toward the Kingdom. If you don't have it, you should definitely get it. Doctor Mamalakis teaches pastoral care at Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, and he's been a longtime collaborator and friend with us here at Faith Tree Resources. And most importantly, doctor Mamalakis is a father of seven children and now a grandfather of two.
Michelle Moujaes:Today, we're gonna explore the role that the church community plays in the lives of our families as we learn to respond and not just react to our children's behaviors. How do we connect to the church? And how does the church help free us from perfectionism that we feel as parents? We're gonna get practical. As always, we're gonna have some good laughs, and we're gonna give you real tools to bring faith into your family life.
Michelle Moujaes:Welcome back, Philip.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Moujaes:We're excited you're here, and we're excited to talk about what the church has to offer us as parents, especially when it comes to perfectionism and how the actual community and the body of Christ helps us get away from that ideal that is so false and impossible to attain.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Exactly. One of the one of the characteristics, I think you'd agree, is parenting is exhausting.
Michelle Moujaes:So exhausting, Philip.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Constant. It's constant. You've got those kids, and it's not like they say, mom, I'll just give you an hour off
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Once you regroup.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. It doesn't matter the age. Young ones is a different kind of exhausting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The older ones, different ones. I work with a lot of young parents, and they're like, oh my gosh. This is it's constant. It's exhausting. It's hard.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And so, inevitably, we're gonna make mistakes. Inevitably, we're gonna fail. Yeah. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so for many people, sadly, church is like where I I I go where I'm supposed to have my act together. Mhmm. Right? Like, good people go to church. Isn't that kind of this message that we get?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But when we understand the Orthodox understanding of church, we talk a lot more about the church as a hospital. Mhmm. We talk a lot more as the church as this way that we encounter God. Mhmm. Like, Church for Orthodox is not an organization that's gonna tell you how to behave and then, you know, criticize you when you fail.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Church is this encounter with God. It's like our source of strength. And if you can think about what we need as parents where it's exhausting and and constant, kind of the storms, like you said, the chaos, We need, like, a harbor to go into and just to get a kind of rest and reprieve. So the church, when we properly understand its role, we can see how important it is with this role with parenting because the temptation in parenting is when we when it's the fourth time our kid has, like, thrown something or Mhmm. Talked back, we just react.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so parenting, it's like, I remember feeling like I'm constantly reacting to this and reacting to that. And, you know, half the time, I'm reacting because I'm overwhelmed.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. And exhausted.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Set up. Yep. Exhausted. Or even that perfectionism. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, I'm feeling this pressure that I do bad have to do better. My kid has to do better. And reacting is really it's it's not about our kids. Because we'll react to our kids no matter what they do or why they do it. The second thing the church provides is is kind of a path.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It kinda shows us the way. And in parenting, it's really about learning, I wanna respond to my child's misbehavior rather than react. And what we mean by respond is to start wondering, well, why did my child Mhmm. Behave like that? I think of when we brought a second our second child home, and the oldest was kid on.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Every time we brought home a new child, well, now the older siblings, they are gonna have some difficulties. Mhmm. My son, he went right after the infant, George. He was like, I have to hold his wrist.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my goodness.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You know what the temptation is as parents when we see siblings fighting or hitting? It's to react. But if we wanna parent in a way that helps their inner lives, we have to reflect on, well, why? Why is he responding like
Michelle Moujaes:that? Right. What was he feeling? What was he thinking? Where was he insecure?
Michelle Moujaes:Afraid.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Lonely. Mhmm. Afraid. Right? So that allows us to step back and think for a moment.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, if he's feeling left out, I shouldn't yell at him. I should say, why don't you come alongside? Why don't you be dad's little helper, mom's little helper? Mhmm. If he's feeling disconnected, why we could be a little more intentional about having one on one time.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I remember Marcos, he genuinely just wanted to play with his two month old baby. And in his two year old brain, he could not figure out that George was not talking to him Right. Right. Right. Could not throw the ball back.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. So there was a lot of learning. So once we recognize, oh, kids can misbehave just because they they don't know something, then a good response is, Marcos, actually, George can't play like that. Let me show you how he can play. You can touch him.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So the the invitation in parenting is to step back when we react and then think more about why the child is misbehaving, And then think about, alright. What do I wanna teach him and how to respond?
Michelle Moujaes:How does the church community actually facilitate that kind of learning? Because it doesn't feel like, or at least in my experience of being in church, that kind of learning that would take away perfectionism isn't really the activities that I do when I'm at my parish or with the people in my parish. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Becomes an invitation to think about what do we do when we gather as family. Again, the church reveals to us this life, and we can learn through studying the scriptures and a bible study, and we learn from talking to our priest what happens to us and what's going on in our kids. Because I can tell you, we can have a conversation like, yes, you should respond. Yes, when Marcos hits, you should respond. And and that's really nice.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Until you get into it, you're like, oh my gosh.
Michelle Moujaes:I will take it down, Marcos. Don't hit
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:the enemy. Talk about the dangers of perfectionism, but how do we free ourselves
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:From perfectionism? The church is is the path of how we free ourselves over time.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that's a process of being taught, reminding ourselves of the gospel. We hear the word of God. We commune, and then we learn the path of patience, kindness, responding. We have to know the path. And then finally, when we fall off the path, the church is where we go to get back up again.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Okay. So in some ways, it's it's good and important to learn how do I respond to my kids, and that is by reflecting for a minute why they're misbehaving, thinking about what you're trying to teach them, and learn to respond in a way that teaches them. We have to know the way. But then to walk the way, what's uniquely Orthodox is we believe that it's not enough to tell people the right thing to do. God actually, through the Holy Spirit, through the sacramental life of the church, when we open our hearts in communion, in confession, with genuine repentance, we get filled with the holy spirit and strangely strengthened so that the next time it happens, we actually we stay in our right mind a little bit longer.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Mhmm. I remember once I was walking out of a church. I had these three boys coming out of church. I was like a jungle gym. I had one guy wrapped around my leg.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think he was trying to tackle me. I had one guy on my back. He was trying to climb me and another on my side. And I'm I'm, like, dragging out of church. And this nice old lady looks at me and says, you have the patience of Job.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I looked around. I'm like, who on earth is she talking about? Because I do not have the patience. That's one of my struggles. I snap when I get overwhelmed.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I looked around. There was no one there. I thought, oh, she's talking about me. And I said to her, I am acquiring the patience, Joe.
Michelle Moujaes:There you go.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because if you wanna if we look at what we're called to do, which is to respond, to be curious before we get furious, we need to be transformed. Like, the goal of parenting is that we are called to acquire the patience of Job. How are we gonna do that? By willing ourselves? The Orthodox way is you don't will yourself to do that no matter how much I promise to be patient in and through the sacramental ascetic life, Repenting, prayer, praying for those who hurt us, forgiving those, communing, worshiping, bringing prayer into our lives, helping those in need, living this life.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Literally, as we get filled with the holy spirit, we acquire this patience that we did not have before. So the unique Orthodox way is God sets the bar. His desire for us is perfection. But we're not supposed to do everything right. We're supposed to learn to depend on him.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So a parent that learns to depend on I need God to help me. Help me what? Help me stop myself from reacting. Help me give myself a time out. Help me think about what is my kid possibly struggling with
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then talking to people to respond. The church then enables us to do that. Mhmm. So we go talk to a priest. In fact, we have parenting groups.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:One of my missions is a lot of people share. When I go to church, it's not really about, you know, the things about how to learn and how to struggle. One of my missions is that every community has, a Friday night parenting night Mhmm. Where you kind of drop the facade that we had a good week, and it's a place we can go that, you know, where I melted down this week? I melted down here.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And the people could say, tell me about it. And then we can reflect as a group, wonder why they're misbehaving. And then as a group, we can come imagine coming back from church with a plan for the next time that happens. Yeah. That is church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Church is that in Christ through the holy spirit of broken parents.
Michelle Moujaes:We tested parenting content around the country with Faith Tree this year, and we had small groups in several churches. And it was very interesting to me, so we hosted one at my home. So Walid and I had 20 couples that came in and went through several weeks of content. And there were parents from all over the place, different stories, different backgrounds, different everything, different length of time in the church, what have you. But there were so many stories that we all experienced as parents.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, there was this commonality that, like, you struggle with that, I struggle with that. Okay. What'd you do? Okay. This is what I did.
Michelle Moujaes:And it kind of levels the playing field where you actually have a community of people that are are wanting the same things you're wanting. I mean, this is why it's so important that we be invested in a parish community.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:Because those people that are going for the same things that you're going for and I'm going for, maybe not the exact same way, but we can walk together toward that end.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:See, like you said, we it kind of we have a shared humanity. Yep. So this book, as I've traveled with this book to other countries, I'm thinking, oh my gosh. I have nothing in common with this whole country.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Once you get to our humanity
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We all struggle. And, literally, this is why Christ comes to the world for those who struggle for the lost. It is a hospital.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Most of us don't experience it, but it's the nature of the church. And I like how you said it. As we get to know each other, we realize, oh, nobody has their act together. Yeah. And it's okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that is the antidote to perfectionism.
Michelle Moujaes:I actually believe that. I think that we do ourselves a disservice, and I do think social media has played a part of that with, you know, everybody's highlight reel. Nobody's talking about what's actually happened. But I think when we are in relationship and can be vulnerable enough to say, oh, yeah. I totally sucked at that one.
Michelle Moujaes:That was awful. Bombed at it. Not good. It's freeing for the rest of us who can stop pretending for a little bit. Because we we have become a culture who does so much comparison.
Michelle Moujaes:And it's like, I always tell this story. My two oldest boys are a year apart. And the first or second Christmas card that we sent out, the first snap, and this was before we all had iPhones, they had my older son had his hand around my younger son, and they looked like they were so loving. And in the very next shot
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:He was shoving him. So he had put his hand around to push him, and the kid was going forward. But, you know, of course, we're not gonna send that on the Christmas card. No way.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The answer is relationships. Because I I look at my grandson. You know, he's just decided to walk. He's been able to walk, but he hasn't really felt like it, and he'd be carried around. And and I've been like, listen.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm the grandpa. I'm like, you gotta walk to me. Walk to me. But the whole time, there's just this pressure. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Do you walk by this age? Do you do this by this age?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's wrong?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that's just the start of a lifetime of comparison. And when we talk about our kids, we'll talk about the highlights. And it's really hard because to really have relationships is to know more of the story. Yeah. And as you get to more of the story it's like I like I said in the last episode, we don't really have a great family.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We have a struggling family. I can give you the highlights, but then as you get to know us, you're like, oh, you guys, we're all the same. Mhmm. And it's you see how we we need community to allow ourselves to be known and, like, put down our little masks?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then we really heal.
Michelle Moujaes:Why do you think masks are so the default? Is it because we've been hurt and we don't want people to think we don't have it all together?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm afraid that you're gonna judge me, and you're gonna criticize me. Like, we fear being rejected, I think. And so I can't tell you that I lost my cool in my parenting or that I gave into my kid and gave them a cell phone and they shouldn't have or I let them. I made a mistake. I'm afraid you're gonna look down on me.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we have we have this we're wired for love, and we're wired for communion. Right? And so if I we're always afraid. If I let someone know who I really am, I'm gonna be rejected.
Michelle Moujaes:Won't want it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we project it on God who even tells us, no matter what, I love you. But why is going to confession so difficult? So relationships as the antidote to perfectionism and also a discipline of going to confession. Because it's not like our children. We don't heal overnight.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We grow over time.
Michelle Moujaes:I wanna dig into that just a little bit. So okay. I'm buying it. Being rejected feels awful. Like, I don't want people to know when my kids make a mistake.
Michelle Moujaes:Wanna hide their sin. Like, I don't want the yeah. They wouldn't
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm afraid of what they'll say.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. Like, our family doesn't do that. Right? So but with that in mind, how do you get away from that? When and are there times when you don't get away from that?
Michelle Moujaes:Right? I do believe we hide each other's sins. I would never wanna put out
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Why get away from what? Get away from what?
Michelle Moujaes:How do we get away from
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The fear of it?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Or the or the Or it's being consumed by the idea of rejection.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? So it's in the nature of Christ like love that it's not that it was safe what Christ did. He made himself vulnerable. And he didn't let me make sure it's gonna be safe before I make myself vulnerable. It's in the nature of God's love that you no longer care that you will be criticized or you will be judged.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, let me say that again. It is in the nature of God's love that you don't care if you're criticized. How do you get there, Philip?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You go there.
Michelle Moujaes:Of course, I care.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Good job. And we say that we wanna learn to say that as a confession.
Michelle Moujaes:Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Whose opinion really matters about how I behave? Mhmm. We can say Jesus, and that's the correct answer.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? God. But the reality is I care more about what these people think about me than God. There's a word for that than that the church reveals to us. It's vainglory.
Michelle Moujaes:Vainglory.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so you saw vainglory is like greed and lust and jealousy. It's a passion that prevents us from allowing ourselves to be known. And what's the antidote? Well, again, remember, the Orthodox church is not about you need to eliminate all your sin. The church constantly points us toward the good.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So confession frees us from vainglory Mhmm. As we confess that. Parenting, in my mind, is the doorway to the kingdom because we can come together. Like you said, the people in your home, we can all say, yes. This is happening to me.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That confession in your home with these parents is a type of public confession. Mhmm. And I bet in the beautiful space you created, by loving them, not criticizing them, they could disclose what happened.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. For sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And the Orthodox word for disclosure is confession. Yeah. And they probably left feeling like you felt, I feel really connected.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And it's only through relationship. And, like, let's be honest, we don't need any more fake relationships. There's plenty of those to go around online and otherwise. But to have those relationships in the church of people who are seeking the same things is really, really important.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It sounds like that's what you did as the leader. You somehow either modeled or invited, and I bet you I wasn't there, but you probably disclosed. Probably shared, here's what I
Michelle Moujaes:struggle an overshare. Sorry, kids. Sorry. So
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:just don't name names.
Michelle Moujaes:Name names. That's
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:right. But that's what I do as a as an instructor and as a leader. Yeah. Like, the most common feedback I get in my parenting is I can't believe you shared that you struggle with this. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm like, yes. Mhmm. Because vulnerability invites vulnerability.
Michelle Moujaes:So if we're inviting parents to get free from perfectionism by being authentic and real and kind of co laboring with other parents been. Yep.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Finding places to share your struggles.
Michelle Moujaes:What happens when that gets painful? What do you do then? Because it I mean, listen. Anybody who's been in relationship knows that if you have a friend who in some way or another betrays the trust Right. Or doesn't, then what?
Michelle Moujaes:How do we how do we navigate that?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:If only we had a god that told us what to do when people betray us or say all manner of evil against us.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Tell us.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Sorry.
Michelle Moujaes:I I love it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You can edit out the sarcasm. This is the path. Like, Christ showed us. He didn't say follow me, and I promise you you won't be betrayed. He didn't say follow me, and I promise no one will criticize you.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:He said follow me, and I promise you you'll have life everlasting. Mhmm. Because his love frees us up. So the question is, what do I do when I'm betrayed? How do we respond to our enemies?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is exactly the role of the church. The church teaches us, forgive those who pursue you. Pray for your enemies. And then the holy spirit enables us Mhmm. To forgive those people and to pray for them.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Give me a piece on discernment. Are there any, like, best practices around this? Because I do know, and and I do believe it to be somewhat of an epidemic in this world is there is so much open disclosure of all the things. That doesn't feel really comfortable or healthy.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because it's public. Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:I was in relationship. Fair. I like it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Exactly. Like it. What you did in your home was different.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Now imagine if this same group of parents met once a month, and they're not there to solve their problems. They're just to get to know each other. Mhmm. And the church provides a teaching component. One of the hallmarks of Christ's ministry was teaching.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so the church can when you get together, you can say, we're gonna go in this direction. We're gonna learn to do this. We're gonna try to be patient. So there's this disclosure, this vulnerability, this connection, and then we learn the gospel. So this is this beautiful process.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So discerning, it's always, are you with the right people for the right reason, and are you sharing in the right way?
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Like confession. The priest is the right person to really fully disclose. Right? A group of parents that are all there to learn, that's appropriate.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Why people share online? Let's just say I believe it's a longing for the very thing we're talking about.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And most people don't have a church like that. And, also, conflict is inevitable. But in the the Orthodox way is, yes, we will have conflict. But conflict is the context for me learning to forgive you. Of course, we're gonna hurt each other Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Intentionally or otherwise. Mhmm. And this process of learning together as parents is exactly what our kids need. We're modeling learning. We're modeling life is in and through the church, and we are becoming more patient.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And our hearts are changing. So the next time Marcos hits George, I can actually I'm actually curious. You do this again. What's going on? It, like, changes the culture because the holy spirit is filling our hearts and filling our homes.
Michelle Moujaes:Give me language. When we have kids and let's just pick an age. Let's say we're talking kind of middle school aged kids where perfectionism really becomes a thing. What kind of language do you suggest parents use with their kids to kind of steer them away from that kind of thinking? Like, what would that look like?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think it looks like two things. I think the first thing is, do they feel close to their mom, and do they feel close to their dad?
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because it's really normal at, you know, early adolescence that they are pulling away. That's a normal process. Right? And suddenly, the opinion of peers becomes more influential. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Kids do best when they feel like their mom has an interest in them and their dad has an interest in them. And that provides a little bit of stability as you go through the rocky waves. The second thing is you can name this struggle. Are you worried about how you look?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Are you worried that no one likes you? Are you sad no one invited you? Mhmm. Do you want to fit in? Naming that struggle is a way of just drawing close and helping them recognize my inner life.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You're right. I really wanna fit in. Mhmm. And the act of confessing that, the act of sharing it is really powerful. I'm not gonna fix it, but I'm gonna just be with that.
Michelle Moujaes:See, this is hard for parents. I mean, I I know when my older two boys were young, they were one of them was invited to a birthday party and the other one wasn't. And I was like, I will light that mother on fire. Right. What?
Michelle Moujaes:Who does that?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:But it was really interesting lesson for me because I was more upset than my kid was. My kid was like, well, he's still my friend. I wanna get him a gift. I'm like, you're not getting him any gift. What are you talking about?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That is parenting. Right? Isn't that our parenting reaction? My son was bullied in sixth grade. And, again, he's really sensitive, and I was really confused.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm like, what what is going on? It was really hard for me as a parent. This, like, rips your heart out. Yeah. I spend most of my time and most of my energy calming myself down.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. Sure. Because he doesn't need a reactive parent.
Michelle Moujaes:I know.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:He needs a responsive parent.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's close, helping him name it, maybe speaking some words, but I and reminding myself, he will grow stronger if I grow with him through this.
Michelle Moujaes:And so there's no real solving of the problem.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There's there's walking with him. The only thing I recommend is we're doing this within the life of the church. Mhmm. Right? Because that he hears a different gospel.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:He might meet different kids. And our churches are really to be Orthodox is to not be part of a clique or a group. It's we're called to learn how to have open, you know, welcoming communities where all the kids are there. And so when we have good leaders and pastors, they help us all welcome everyone.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So it again, it allows us to to get a sense of belonging even though we may not have a belonging in the world. Mhmm. So that is critical to let it to growing through these periods of time with our kids. And what I've learned, you you go through it. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You you know, my I remind myself, I'm gonna outlast it. I'm gonna outlast it.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Because what can we do? It feels helpless. I don't know how you felt. You feel helpless.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Keeping my own emotions in check so important. Right. And because you do feel helpless. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:And when you feel helpless, that's when you come out
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:of the ring. Right? Exactly. So that's another thing. We talked about parenting is it's a lot you don't know.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We talked about it normal to get stuck. It's normal to be in pain, and it's normal to feel helpless.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And what we can learn as parents is to take a deep breath and to remind ourselves, my role is to walk with them through this. Mhmm. Practicing peace, connecting to other parents to get guidance and the priest because God is healing me Mhmm. As I'm learning to walk through this.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. And I think it's really it's critical for us to continually go back to that language of the church and the paradigm shift that you get in the church because where where I think when you feel helpless, that's where fear can take root and does all sorts of things. Right? Where you're just panicked. Are they gonna be okay?
Michelle Moujaes:They're not gonna be okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Especially if we think we have to be a perfect parent.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So in some ways, learning to find peace is the antidote to perfectionism. And the antidote towards I'm supposed to have my act together. Mhmm. It's like external Christianity. It's hard to even call it Christianity.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's really it's really this inner life where god meets us in our scared spot Mhmm. Our stuck spot, our anxious spot. That's what we wanna pass on to our kids. That's not behavior management. That's the light of Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:So this is perfect. Let me ask a few questions that kinda go on with the theme of perfectionism that I think will be interesting for our audience. This comes from Victoria, and she asks, how can I balance being a mother and having a career while still having an orthodox lifestyle when my spouse also has a career and is a little more passive about the home?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Lots of things in that great question. Let me start with what does it mean to have an Orthodox lifestyle? Because when we think about what it means to be Orthodox, it's not so much doing a bunch of stuff Right. As much as everything we've been talking about. Learning to respond, learning to love, learning to grow, learning how to parent.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, then that happens in the home. That's that's what we do at our workplace. That's what we do as a mother. Like, whole thing, we we understand orthodoxy is is the way we see the world. The only thing we say is we wanna stay connected to the church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So that's a lot to balance. If my husband is rather passive, right, everyone has different characteristics. So my answer would be this is part of the marriage journey of the ongoing conversation about what's important and what's not, how are we gonna prioritize. I wanna have a career. I wanna have these kids.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Those are beautiful conversations. I would say the Orthodox way is to invite those conversations. Mhmm. It's not like the Orthodox church will say, this is the Orthodox model for that, and your life has to look like that. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:No. It's about learning. And I don't know about you, but in all of our lives, we have to prioritize. We have to look at, alright. What's the most important thing to me?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:How is this serving my family? And recognizing under guidance, right, how do I do this? So I would say invitation to conversation is the Orthodox way.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And how we love our spouse and love our kids within this life of the church, it's gonna look unique for your family, unique for that family, and unique for my family. That's cute. I would say we're not trying to look a certain way. We're trying to love a certain way.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. We're not trying to look a certain way.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We're trying love to look a certain way, but we are trying to love a certain way. Patient, listening, kindness, gentle. And then we create a unique balance between the work, the kids. The kids are growing up. You know, my husband's personality, my personality.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Each of us does it uniquely, but it's the same Christ and the same love.
Michelle Moujaes:Alright. This one comes from Erin, a mother pregnant with her first child. And she asks, how can we best handle fasting with children? Which I think sometimes, you know, leaning into the ascetical practices and spiritual practices of the church can become a real struggle for parents because we try to do it perfectly, and we try and do it. And it's so, misses the mark in really what the intent is.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:So tell me about that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So she has a one year old or a newborn or
Michelle Moujaes:She's expecting pregnant. She's expecting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:She wants to get it right, which I get. I mean, I get that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's good. Two things initially come to my mind is these are the types of conversations you have with your particular spiritual father, your priest. Because the second thing is there is actually no standard fasting rule. People fast like different churches and different traditions have actually different fasting rules. And there was even a a sense that we should all let's get together to make sure we all fat.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There's one consistent thing. Like the Antiochians. Right? They've modified after Pascha. There's no fasting during Pentecost.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, there there is no history of one clear way to fast.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so some people think that's a problem. I think that's a beautiful feature of orthodoxy and fasting because it protects us from our perfectionism. Mhmm. There literally is no right way to fast because there's no specific defined fasting. And and we see that, oh, the goal of fasting is not to do it right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. It's to develop it's to turn closer to God, kinda nurture this heart that's dependent on God. Mhmm. And the parable before Lent is the publican and the Pharisee. And the Pharisee did things right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Mhmm. And Christ says he completely missed the mark
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because he was so focused on doing that he lost a sense of this dependency on God. And what did the publican in the back of the church do? Well, he did everything wrong, which nurtured in him a dependence on God's mercy.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Parenting, I think, by nature, is a doorway to invite us to just depend on God's mercy Mhmm. Because it's impossible to do it right. So my answer to fasting is talk to a priest. Number two, it's about whatever you're doing. Just take a one gentle step of restricting it's and it's not just food because it's also a gentle thing about how do you pray.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And you just decide, I'm gonna get off my phone a little and pray a little more. It's just a turning towards. Right? So you see that's beautiful that what does right mean with fasting? That is a feature of the Orthodox church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There is no right fasting so that we can acquire the right way.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Okay. One more. George wrote in and said, I'm scared to death that my children will grow up to be worldly people given to the passions, and seeing nothing wrong with such a lifestyle. How can we keep this from happening, and at what point is it no longer in my control?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Beautiful. Number one, George, welcome to being a parent. Right? Don't we all have this fear?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Number two, let's say your children do grow up and they're not connected to the church. Our call as Orthodox parents is we're gonna love them. We are still gonna walk with them. We're still gonna stay connected to them. We're still gonna pray for them, and we will literally depend on God to be intervening.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, as a church, we wanna avoid this sense that, oh my gosh. We have to control our kids to make sure they do this. That's more of a cult than the church. One of the hallmarks of Orthodox Christianity is some of our kids will not attend church. Some of our kids will decide, here's what I'm doing.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm responsible for having an Orthodox response to that Mhmm. Not to get my kids to behave a certain way. Right. So just like my four year old misbehaving in church, I'm not responsible for that. I'm responsible for how I draw close.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:My 24 year old, if they leave the church, I'm gonna stay in touch. I'm gonna stay in a relationship. I'm gonna pray for them. Like, allow God some room to defer the whole story. Number two, if we walk around with that fear when our kids are in the home, what are we passing on to them?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We're gonna pass on fear. We're gonna be a little more anxious. We're gonna be a little more controlling. And if you grew up in a home with a parent who's religiously anxious and religiously controlling, would you wanna stick around and be part of that religion?
Michelle Moujaes:That's rough.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So the very fear is something we need to repent from because we wanna give our kids a taste of the truth of Orthodoxy, the truth of God's love, not fear Mhmm. And control. And if our kids taste the truth and the peace, they are drawn
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To it.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. I I know my husband and I talk so often about free will. At what point are we allowing them really you know, the way we we said it in our home is we're gonna indoctrinate them as much as we can until they're 18. And once they're gone, our prayer for them is that they really have been invited into something they wanna be a part of.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:But you have to account for free will because ultimately, it's not they can't borrow your faith.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:No. And it's taste and see. They have to experience something.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's sort of like, you know, on with their math homework, we never give them the answers with their math homework
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To make sure they get it right. Yeah. But when it's the faith, we're like, I'm gonna tell you the answer. I'm gonna tell you answers.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's so worried. Instead of walking with them as they figured out, they go, I wonder if god exists. And we say that's a great question.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And you know what? Actually, I think it's an invitation for parents that we need to be pursuing our learning and our prayer lives and our reading of scripture because you can't pass it down if you're not in your own right, you know, learning and trying to grow in yourself.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Children do not adopt lukewarm faith. Mm-mm. They will get a sense of what's real if if we learn how to make this faith, this church central to our lives. And so, you know, they need to be free to say, what is this? And we wanna connect them to the community, connect them to their priest.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But in the home, we literally this is why we can't scream at our kids for throwing rocks. It's because this is where they're gonna get a sense of what's true. What's true. Because we're thinking long term, not freaking out about the small stuff. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So they feel comfortable in our home. They feel like I have a parent who really cares about me, really takes an interest in
Michelle Moujaes:me. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I like that. I'm drawn to this truth.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that. I love it so much. Alright. Anything else you wanna add before we wrap up today?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So nice. Thank you for doing this.
Michelle Moujaes:So good to be with you. And thanks to you for listening to this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting. Every week, we're here to help you raise children who know Christ, who love him, and who spend their lives trying to be like him. And hey, listen. If this episode blessed you, would you do us a favor?
Michelle Moujaes:Consider leaving a review or sharing it with a friend, and here's why. When you do that, it helps more families just like yours find the show. Oh, and one last thing. If you wanna go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes, or you'll find it at faithtree.org/parenting. The guide is a free gift to you and your family, and it's just a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we've talked about today.
Michelle Moujaes:You can discuss it with your spouse, your friends, or your community at church, so make sure you check it out. And we will see you next time.