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A weekly show from the folks at East Lansing Info breaking down all the news and happenings in East Lansing, Michigan.
Welcome to East Lansing Insider. This is reporter Dustin Dufourt Petty. June is Men's Health Month, a time dedicated to raising awareness about the health challenges facing men and boys, and encouraging conversations that too often go unspoken. While physical health is an important part of that discussion, mental health remains an area where many men continue to struggle silence. Research shows that men are often less likely to seek help for mental health concerns, more likely to experience social isolation, and face cultural expectations that can make vulnerability feel difficult or even unacceptable.
Dustin DuFort Petty:At the same time, conversations about masculinity, identity, relationships, and emotional well-being are evolving in important ways. Today, we're gonna take a closer look at men's mental health and the factors that shape it. My guest is doctor Gabriel Johnson of Michigan State University. Doctor Johnson's work focuses on identity, culture, and experiences of men, particularly the ways social expectations can influence mental health and well-being. Today, we'll discuss the challenges men face, the barriers that keep many from seeking support, and what gives Doctor.
Dustin DuFort Petty:Johnson hope for the future. Doctor. Johnson's journey to the work he does today is particularly interesting. He earned his a bachelor's degree in economics from UC Davis. He worked for a time in harm reduction work in the Bay Bay Area in California.
Dustin DuFort Petty:Several years, he taught seventh grade math, which he loved, and it was a powerful time for him. And then he made his way to the University of Michigan where he earned master's in public health. Led to, him pursuing his PhD also at the University of Michigan. He explored the issues of masculinity and how that impacts mental health, particularly in black, gay, and bisexual men in Southeast Michigan. His work is fascinating, and I really hope you get to enjoy this podcast and hear what he has to say about our issue of men's mental health today.
Dustin DuFort Petty:So when you look at the current conversation around men's mental health, what are people getting right and what are they completely misunderstanding?
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah. I think one is that they're definitely getting right that it's a problem. That's a concern. I do think there's a difficult narrative around it about we'll we'll say for simplicity, who's at fault and the reason. I kind of teach this in my class with students about highlighting this weird meat complexity about men's health and mental health, where we know that the body literature regarding health, mental health, how we know how the body works, is often predicated on men's bodies, right?
Gabriel Johnson:That's not a surprise. That's been the case for decades, close to a century. And yet, when we think about the body of work in literature, there's actually no real sincere nuanced understanding of men and men's mental health in particular, right? It's often been broadly categorized as like, this is mental health, this is physical health, right? And we don't have, we don't put the name about, we don't put the gender about, it's men, right?
Gabriel Johnson:These are men's issues and this is a unique issue and this is a unique factor how men are experiencing this. And so I think when we talk about more misunderstanding, I think we're misunderstanding that men is gender and gender is actually working and impacting the experiences of men in men's mental health. And so particularly when we talk about, and particularly, and I think particularly when we talk about mental health, I think one of the things that we're getting, that we're kind of misunderstanding, is that right now, and part of this may be due to, you know, the sensationalization of social media, is that we create these factors that are particularly specific to men. And what's happening is that some of these factors are more distinctly exacerbated conditions for men in particular terms of mental health. For example, we talk about the loneliness epidemic, right?
Gabriel Johnson:I have a hard time with it. Partially because data has shown over, I think, the last decade or two, that men, women, gender affirming trans folks across the board are increasingly more lonely. That's not the actual issue. What the issue is is that how technology, how the changing cost of living, how the job market is distinctly impacting men and boys in a distinct way, in a different way than it's impacting women and girls, right? And that, I think that's some of the nuance that's often missing in the conversation that we have to really try to be honest, clear about.
Gabriel Johnson:And I think that's also some of the nuance that's actually creating this rift or or further distancing many men and boys from this competition on mental health and that they need it, that they need it, that it's important, and seeking out resources.
Dustin DuFort Petty:So you you said you you just said that everyone has experienced this loneliness. Mhmm. What has when it when when you look at men specifically, are there any social or cultural changes that have had the biggest impact on men's emotional well-being in the past, I don't know, October?
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah. Mean, the list can go on to be quite honest. And I would say this, going name these and put these in the context that I think they're distinctly and really exacerbating the conditions of men in mental health, particularly. I think one, simply put, I would say is technology. And I'd say, put this particularly technology in the context, primarily in the context of professional vocational work.
Gabriel Johnson:When we think about how technology has kind of changed the professional landscape, partially due to how families are constructed and men being primary breadwinners for a long period of time. And as a result of that, men's identities are largely constructed through work. Right? The jobs, what they're doing for work. And that's shifting with like millennials such as myself and Gen Zers and beyond.
Gabriel Johnson:But technology has really shifted how work is happening and then also putting a lot of men out of work, right, who were, we'll say farmers, we'll say were blue collar workers that are now having their jobs outsourced and are older, right? Men that are 50 like 40, 56 years old in the 1990s and the early 2000s, right, are often having a difficult time transitioning to a different field and finding a hard time finding work, that's really shifting things. Conversely, when I say think about technology, also really think about how social media is replacing friends. In person, in particular. And that in tandem with men and boys, literature shows men and boys have fewer friends.
Gabriel Johnson:That doesn't mean that they don't have meaningful connections, but they have less friends. Which means less people to rely on, talk to and bounce things off of. And then when you add the content to social media, that actually decreases the amount of potential friends that they may have, which I think is really shaping and informing men's emotional well-being. I think additionally, to be quite honest, when I think about social media and technology, I think one thing that's really important that is not clearly being said is some of the things that I mentioned earlier about the, like, lack of and to be clear right there, you know, Rylee Lavaughan, Robert Staples, people in decades probably have done some of this work, right? Doctor.
Gabriel Johnson:Wissen Powell, Doctor. Daphne Johnson, Doctor. Daphne Watkins has done this have done the work and community members of the work about addressing men's mental health. But it hasn't really permeated to like, to the pop culture, to like, to popular culture, or to the masses, as social media had. And what has happened in the last really five to ten years is that social media has gotten ahead of scholars, researchers, things of that nature to talk about mental health.
Gabriel Johnson:And the unfortunate act was that while there are a solid amount of good players, there is a substantial, I would say overwhelming number, that are simply stating that physical fitness, having a ton of money, having a ton of money and having a great job and being with women or being pursued by women, not necessarily pursuing them is enough to kind of counteract depression, anxiety, you know, trauma, simply put. And the unfortunate aspect, which I think is a bit, which I think could be a bit different, both due to like, the nature of society not really focusing on women, is that many women groups of women have created their own small kind of enclaves and grassroots approaches to supporting those kind of measures, where men have not. And they're starting to now, or starting to add a higher add a clad more frequently now. But social media has moved at such a pace that it's kind of gotten in front of men and boys.
Dustin DuFort Petty:If I'm misinterpreting what you just said, I let me know. But it seems that groups like to put the onus or at least part of the onus for this loneliness epidemic of than men are experiencing onto women. They like to. Can you talk a little bit about that? Why is that?
Dustin DuFort Petty:And how, how do we combat it short of just Yeah. Sharing the data?
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah. No. I think yeah. I think that's really valid. I do think in in a lot of popular culture, there's a conversation about putting the onus on women, and that's the reason why this woman is epidemic.
Gabriel Johnson:I think part of that is, and I, I'm hesitant because I don't, I think there's a very easy and very, very easy and steep slope to slide into pathologization of men, and that they're just defunct, right? And men and boys. And that's not what we're trying to get at here. But I will say, I think a distinct part is, one is that there's been gender roles that have been kind of socialized and made normative. Some of those things have been, some of those things have been, we'll say productive for individuals and for groups at a certain place and time.
Gabriel Johnson:And I think we have largely failed boys. I'll say, I think we've largely failed boys. And I say boys in particular, right? Because oftentimes these are where the messages start. Often are forgetting that the messages aren't simply what is spoken, right?
Gabriel Johnson:But it's also what is witnessed, what is perceived, is noticed. And that a lot of times, especially when we think about, I'm a millennial, right? I'm 30 years old. Thinking about the people, like, if my father were around, right? Historically and oftentimes that it would be work, come home, right, maybe hang out a friend or two, but often at home spend time with the family in some way, shape or form.
Gabriel Johnson:And so that has that kind of has created its own kind of cycle. Its own kind of cycle in some way creates its own kind of cycle and, like, reinforcing that. And I think similar to what I think similar to what is what I was kind of talking about previously is that when we look at messaging towards men and boys is often focused on how does one get better for the sake of women, right? And not for the sake of oneself, or for the sake of what we say brotherhood. Now, brotherhood, camaraderie, those things are actually deeply important and research recent, like recent research and research that kind of started in like the late 80s, late to mid 80s has demonstrated that brotherhood or male friendships is actually pretty tantamount to mitigating adverse mental health outcomes.
Gabriel Johnson:But those messages are often to the margins, right? Like, they're not often front and center. And so I think that creates some challenges. That creates some challenges. And I also, and I think we have not done a really good job of teaching men and really encouraging men, teaching men and helping men navigate through emotions and naming emotion.
Gabriel Johnson:I think early on, I can give you an example. Child, love my child, I have a five year old, soon to be six year old. I think he was one, one and a half years old crying. And one of my relatives told him, Stop crying. That's a really, that may seem like, Oh, that's just what we do.
Gabriel Johnson:But that is actually a very normal and actually quite normative message that many boys get before they're able to talk. Some of those messages become really challenging and really ingrained early on that kind of build and kind of scaffold. And then when we're five, six, seven years old, boys are only known as anger or simply cannot name emotions where I think, where in my experience, and some of the studies have shown that a lot of girls, although experiencing different levels of oppression in childhood and pressures, have some, have greater ability to express a greater range of emotion that is deemed acceptable because to be emotional is to be feminine, quote unquote, in American society. And so I think some of these things are really contributing to this scapegoating, I would say, to women that isn't really fair, nor is it really accounted for and recognize that we actually have to be accountable for our own experiences and change the focus about why we're doing the things we're doing, right? Are we getting into shape for ourselves?
Gabriel Johnson:Are we trying to get a better job to put ourselves in different position, not only to appeal to women, right? But to actually, like, put ourselves in a position to support our families, support our moms, support our brothers to, you know, have fun trips, to have fun, you know, so.
Dustin DuFort Petty:Is how the way boys learn how to be men
Gabriel Johnson:Mhmm.
Dustin DuFort Petty:Is that changing for the better? Is it evolving into more of an enlightened stance, or are we stuck in that old mold?
Gabriel Johnson:I I don't I I I I I think I cannot in spirit say we're stuck. You know? I hopefulness is part of the dance, and most I have to flex on a regular basis to do this work and to raise a child, a son in this context and to myself. I think we're changing. I think that is true.
Gabriel Johnson:I do also think, similar to what I think we sometimes are seeing and we're frequently seeing, like, more recently seeing with, like, this severe partisanship, I think we're starting to see some of those things kind of arise. I think so many things are growing. I think boys are becoming, are being able to become more expressive. I think part of that is a byproduct of parents. And I think parents across the board, I think, Anna, I'm really thinking a lot about, I'm thinking a lot about how a lot of fathers are really thinking about how they were impacted growing up.
Gabriel Johnson:And how that's really shifted, how they've shown up in like some of those experiences and trying their best to show up and engage. And that's largely evident by some literature that talks about fathers are more involved in their children's life than they have ever been. I think unfortunately, if this was the case in the 90s, it'd be very different. I think in the case now, right, where you're battling two, three hundred, 5,000 messages a day via Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Snapchat, what have you, as well as thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, 100 classmates that may be also exposing themselves to similar messaging or different depending on what the algorithm shows. And so I think we're definitely growing.
Gabriel Johnson:And I also believe, in my experience, both in my community, in Ypsilanti and in some of the work my colleagues are doing, that there's an increased awareness about the needs and well-being of boys and men. I think one of the challenges that's happening, which I'm gonna keep kind of highlighting this, is that we're a bit behind on the ball, right? I think many of us who are parents, who are siblings, who are whoever are having a hard time breaking through to a decent amount of men and boys. And I think part of that is due to feeling neglected, right? Feeling ignored and some of those things.
Gabriel Johnson:But I do think there's possibility. I do think things are changing. I think one thing that I'm concerned about is that there's, while it's important to focus on presentation and aesthetics that have become much more I mean, they've shifted at times, but we're in a kind of cacophony of aesthetics that includes the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, all right now. We're here wearing tight pants, crop tops, also wearing increasingly baggy jerseys, looking like crisscross, looking like the Icy Brothers. It's all across the board, which is lovely.
Gabriel Johnson:And I'm curious if the work is happening on the inside. I think what people are seeing on social media sometimes is that there are men or boys that are presenting as liberated by clothing, right? But still are struggling to express emotions because no one's really listened, to be quite honest, or engage them in that way. And so I think I did I don't really think we're going in the right direction. I think we need some really concerted efforts that I think community members are doing.
Gabriel Johnson:I think a lot of I've seen a lot of community kind of engage in that. But I think increasingly, you see that on like a larger level because it's happening. Because, you know, the reality is that it's happening in different spaces, right? When we think about where men are overrepresented in prisons, they're overrepresented in prisons. When think about Black men, Latino men are overrepresented in prisons, when we think about juvenile detention, we think about ISS, when you think about special needs, special ed, when you think about this increased diagnosis of ADHD, or testicular disorder, and hypertension deficit.
Gabriel Johnson:And so, I think these I think it's increasing, but I also think there's a need to really be intentional about what messages we get out on social media, because that's where a lot of people are seeing these messages.
Dustin DuFort Petty:To you, what does healthy masculinity look like? Oh.
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah. I think healthy masculinity is simply masculinity and you just no one to use it. You don't, you don't leverage these things to like, put people down or hurt them. I think, you know, when I, when I think about things that people may traditionally categorize as masculine, which can include like stoicism, right? Like a lack of expressing emotion, or leadership, or like really being decisive, right?
Gabriel Johnson:I think those things are all just traits, right? And I think they're important traits that can be held by anybody. But I think the reality is that when we think about the conversation about toxic masculinity, because if you say healthy masculinity, we have just oppose it to what people say as toxic masculinity. It's largely I think it's largely just an over indexing, or even a compensatory masculinity where we're trying to compensate, right, or do harm to people, intentionally or otherwise, by being as masculine as possible, right? By being as masculine as possible or over indexing on certain attributes, right?
Gabriel Johnson:Where I think health and masculinity allows you to recognize that you have a balance and that you also hold feminine traits, right? If those people, if you believe, like, feminine traits, those things are, those things are not on a spectrum, right? They're actually much more complementary with one another. And so I think when I think about health and masculinity, I think about holding these traits and what it means to be, like, holding these traits of masculinity, such as, like I said, such as decisiveness, such as, we'll say, strength, such as being, and how those things, how you're able to leverage those things in spaces that work for you and work in service of others. Right?
Gabriel Johnson:I think that's one aspect of masculinity that often gets lost, right? And I think, I think we talked to a lot of men and boys, would, I think there's a realization that a lot of men are doing things in service of like, of their loved one, of their kids, of their grandma, of their mother, of whoever, right? And sometimes that just kind of gets, it can get, it can get over indexed on and that becomes challenging. And right, and also that you're doing things that are working for you. Right?
Gabriel Johnson:I think I really want to emphasize that because oftentimes we talk about things that are external, right? How we're doing things for others or like, to others, but also masculinity in these traits, or helping masculinity also helps you out in some nature or form. It supports your growth, right? It helps me become a better father, helps me become a better partner, helps me become a better brother, a better son, a better community member, and how I show up. And I'm constantly learning in some way, shape or form.
Gabriel Johnson:And that's not this is a static endpoint. We often talk about, we use these terms like alpha, beta, and things like that, which like highlight this kind of fixed destination that is some of is often what the twice a masculine is that always moving and shifting.
Dustin DuFort Petty:What you I don't wanna put anyone in a in a silo or in a in a but what unique pressures do Black men and other men in communities that are often othered, what do they face when it comes to mental health and emotional expression?
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah. I mean, work focuses on Black men, like, by and large, but I include all marginalized men. Black men experience a really distinct challenge. They're in a really distinct position. I think in the conversation that currently happens, we talk about men are in a position of privilege, position of power, right?
Gabriel Johnson:And I don't think I would dispute those things. And it's worth noting that when we talk about Black men, being Black and being a man creates a unique intersection that creates, that puts them in this position that it's always really hyper scrutinized. Only in terms of, when we think we think about crime, we think about legitimacy, when we think about limitations on emotions that can be expressed without being scrutinized or questioned. That's often what's happening for Black men. That really makes their lives, which is really present in the lives of Black men, win their voice.
Gabriel Johnson:I remember early on that I had a very difficult time. I was very angry very early on. But I quickly learned that being angry was a surefire way to get in trouble, is a surefire way to a surefire way to be kind of vilified and be put in a box that really you don't get out of for a very long time. And that that was far, that was, well, I would say it's far more sticky of a, was, my sister was far more sticky than some of my white male peers. And so, when we think about, when I think about black men and their distinct position, I have to put in the context of history that, you know, even though in slavery, like Black men were obviously slaves, but also put in position and demonstrated to be victims of sexual violence.
Gabriel Johnson:Right? Even though that is often overlooked. Often the victims of hanging in public, in the public scene, right? Which really creates a certain depiction about how we understand Black men and Black people in general when they're, you know, being lynched and naked. And then even more recently, when we think about how Black men are marketed to, and marketed in the '80s are often looked at as angry, violent, you know, Black men have been leveraged in the Clinton administration for votes, right?
Gabriel Johnson:Because we're a token of fear, right? We still fear. And so, when you're in that position on top of like, you know, if people don't know the Tuskegee experiment, the syphilis experiment, and that's the one that people know, but there's a plethora of medical misconducts, medical mistreatment, medical abuse that's happened to Black men and Black people, there's a unique and distinct mistrust that occurs to, one, to even seek out mental health help, broadly speaking, as well as how Black men are interpreted through the eyes of the mental system and through the criminal justice system, right? Being angry and being pissed off and knowing that, like, I'm concentrated for a job and I'm experiencing racism, and that's not enough to drive someone up a wall, is actually enough for someone to snap and go an angry tirade, right? But that is understood as a pathologization, right?
Gabriel Johnson:And then institutionalization, often. And so, I think those are some the experiences that Black men are experiencing. And with the experience of medical mistrust, and I would say mental deception, it's not really distrust, right? The mental system has deceived Black men and Black people, so they have a lack of trust about the system, a lack of trust about the system. And that has kind of created this unique position where they don't, where they feel apprehensive to seek mental health care help and feel incredibly surveilled, right?
Gabriel Johnson:Not only by the state, because the criminal justice system and about a third of Black men have gone through the system. Right? But also by their peers at work. Right? The inability to be angry, they'll be frustrated, to express things openly.
Gabriel Johnson:That creates a really distinct pressure and kind of anxiety in the space.
Dustin DuFort Petty:you you mentioned that you're a father. If you could redesign the way we raise boys to better support their mental health, to make them feel like they can ask for help, what would you do? I know it's a big one. But
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah. No. It is a big one. What would I do? That's a good question.
Gabriel Johnson:How would I redesign things? I mean, I think one of the things I think about I think one thing to think about is incorporating some aspect of, like I think incorporating some aspect of stillness. I think a lot of times, and I don't want to generalize, but I believe a lot. I know a lot of times men and boys are often relegated to sports or physical activity. And I think it's really important, incredibly important for everybody.
Gabriel Johnson:So, a way to kind of submit the process. It's been evidenced, it was evidenced by increasing age in physical activity in sports, improves academic outcomes, emotional outcomes. And I think there's a need to kind of provide senses of stillness. So like, posits, whether that's getting folks to go fish, getting folks to kind of sit down, and really kind of talk about what emotions are. But I think this reiteration of that is really helpful.
Gabriel Johnson:Think, I think that some of the work I, some of the community work that I do in Ipsi, there is there is a growing effort to constantly remind young boys, particularly young black boys of that work, that there are emotions, and we have to engage in those emotions. And what are those emotions and name that work? And that, I mean, that's come up even in the work that one of my colleagues is doing at the zoo, an urban alliance called Change of Status, working with men that have recently been released from prison, is reminding people of emotions and really engaging those emotions. I think, I really, but I do really think one of the biggest things we can do is listen, is like listen to boys when they share things. I think there's times that we can really perceive boys as violent before they even know that they're even, what violence is, right?
Gabriel Johnson:They're mad, they're just yelling, and they're expressing things, and listening, and like providing some sense of like, that they're being heard. Because I think a lot of times, early on, boys are perceived boys understand that they're not listened to. That those things don't matter, but what I do, the actions I do, do matter. But what I'm feeling isn't necessarily important. And so I think it'd be like really engaging, focus on listening to boys early on.
Gabriel Johnson:That can be really fundamentally different. And to be quite honest, I think something that really be important is when people had children, like, engaging in a, like, a preliminary conversation about how do you feel or what fears do you have about having a boy or a girl, or to the child broadly. I think some of those fears, when I think about as a father, I reflect on some of those things early on, before I had a kid. And it really shaped how I how I showed up and how I continue to change my approach to my child over time.
Dustin DuFort Petty:You mentioned the Kalamazoo program. Are there any other examples of communities programs, interventions that are helping men to thrive emotionally? Anything you wanna give a shout out to?
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah. There's a few. So I think I said changing status in Kalamazoo over at Urban Alliance. It's a twelve week program run by my homie Big B who's doing great, great work. It's a twelve week program for these men that are recently out of prison, engaging in emotional intelligence and all kinds of aspects of their life.
Gabriel Johnson:That's been that's been there, like, at least, I think they're in, like, cohort 10 or 11. I think they're doing phenomenal work out there. I also think a very, he's become very big, but I don't think he's, that was the intention. He's a very humble man, but Jason Wilson in Detroit, over at the Cape Of Medulla, the Transformational Training Academy in Detroit, does incredible work, has incredibly powerful clips and videos online, and is really incredibly clear about what he's doing and why it's important, particularly for men and boys. And does it in runs like a martial arts studio that incorporates faith, purpose, like self development in that same vein.
Gabriel Johnson:And I think all his content is really beautiful and clear. And it's incredibly insightful. I think many people I've showed, to include myself, have like, teared up about it, because it's something that people are like, I wish I had this when I was a kid. And then lastly, I live in Ypsilanti, but in Washington County, but Washington, Our Brother's Keeper, has a slew of programs that's really beautiful. One of the ones we found is Young Men a Purpose, which is engaging young minoritized boys, young Black boys, young Brown boys, Latino boys, Arab boys, for like broad academic, emotional self development, especially using like masculinity, manhood, those areas, focusing on sixth through eighth graders, which I don't know if you remember yourself, it's a pretty crucial moment in time.
Gabriel Johnson:Yeah, and many of us have browned out in middle school, which is rightfully so. But they're doing really awesome work there, and they also have, they also are engaging men, young men and young boys in music to the Formula seventy three Pro Project, as well as like the CLR Academy, which is focused on providing sports and academic enrichment in a really broad, supportive environment.
Dustin DuFort Petty:What's giving you hope?
Gabriel Johnson:What has given me hope? Seeing these little boys. Yeah, I mean, guess I have five, six years, he has finished kindergarten, it's really beautiful to see them engaged. It's really incredible to see these boys give each other hugs and hold hands unprompted, right? This is like, I'm not prompting anything.
Gabriel Johnson:And seeing that happen is really beautiful. Also, I think also in the current context of what's going on, I think I'm seeing a lot of men pause and reflect. And really think about what's like, think about like, what's going on. And it makes me really excited to see it feels like we have like, we're getting into a critical mass of men that are like, we need to step in and support. And they're like, you know, they're working, they're full time jobs, and then they're going and they're supporting young men and boys, and whatever class that is.
Gabriel Johnson:And learning to understand what it means to engage young men and boys in 2026, which is quite a wild type in the grand scheme of things. And so that gives me a ton of hope. And also, like, I know I spoke about social media, sometimes it's really challenging. But there are a lot of incredible accounts that are providing a platform and creating this virtual space. I don't know how they do it, But they have the gits creates a virtual space where like, men are like sharing on the comments, which is not common.
Gabriel Johnson:It's really uncommon for men to share in social media, given that, you know, they're often, they used to be less frequently on social media than they are now. And so, yeah, and so that's really been hope giving in immense amounts of ways.
Dustin DuFort Petty:Doctor. Johnson, I'm so grateful for your time. This is the best conversation I've had in a long time. If people want to follow you or your work, can they do so?
Gabriel Johnson:Yes. I'm terribly I'm terribly offline social media wise, but I am on Twitter. I haven't used that Twitter in a long time, but it's blackademic, b l a q a d e m I c. And then I also just started Oh, you can find me on LinkedIn, GabrielLeeJohnson.
Dustin DuFort Petty:Thank you again, doctor Johnson, for your time today and for speaking to us with such candor and honesty. This has been another episode of East Lansing Insider with Dustin Dufourd Petty. Have a good week ahead.