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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
193. Tammy Weitzman
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[00:00:00] Tammy: Like many, many places that are very, very, to use the common term, woke hard, radical left. They have one lens, and if you are not on board and don't [00:00:15] see life through that lens, then you are out. There are people there who think exactly that. Somebody like me should have no business living or working there.
[00:00:27] Tammy: And look at what has happened since then. What they're [00:00:30] saying is, people who are like me, you can't work here. You can't live here. You can't collect a paycheck here. We don't want you here. You're not included to now you don't deserve to be alive. Because what I thought [00:00:45] so naive of me back in 2021 was, it's okay, I may disagree with this, you may agree with this, but we can still be colleagues and we can still be okay with each other.
[00:00:55] Tammy: We don't have to agree on everything. But that's not their way. [00:01:00]
[00:01:01] SKOT: You must be some kind of therapist
[00:01:07] Stephanie: today. My guest is Tammy Weitzman. She is a licensed clinical social worker who spent most of her career caring for cancer [00:01:15] patients before being abruptly terminated from her job over DEI issues. Tammy's here to tell her story today. Tammy, welcome. Thanks for joining us.
[00:01:23] Tammy: Thanks Stephanie. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:01:25] Stephanie: Alright, so you're making your rounds, sharing your story because of the intrusion [00:01:30] of DEI and wokeness into in, I mean this is sort of a branch of the counseling profession, the intersection of social work and the medical field where your story took place. And as you know, we talk about that sort of thing a lot on this [00:01:45] podcast.
[00:01:45] Stephanie: So just wanna give you an opportunity to tell your story. Where should we begin?
[00:01:49] SKOT: Yeah,
[00:01:51] Tammy: I guess at the beginning I was hired by, um, at the time Seattle Cancer Care Alliance. [00:02:00] Now called the Fred Hutch Cancer Center in, in, uh, January of 2016 in Seattle, Washington. And I was hired for my skills and my experience, which had been vast at that point in time, [00:02:15] specifically in hematology oncology.
[00:02:18] Tammy: Although I had worked pretty much in every disease center. Of oncology that exists, but always honed in on it [00:02:30] was really a big love of mine. Uh, oncology, hematology, oncology, and even more specific to that, stem cell, bone marrow transplantation was a real specialty of mine. However, for five years that I was at the hutch, I [00:02:45] worked specifically in, um, in hem-onc, as we call it for short.
[00:02:49] Tammy: So really caring for patients and families who were experiencing treatment for diagnosis and treatment for lymphoma, [00:03:00] leukemia, and multiple myeloma, and had a lot of intersection and crossover with, um, patients who were undergoing immunotherapy treatment and stem cell transplantation. Yeah.
[00:03:14] Stephanie: So that's what you [00:03:15] were doing.
[00:03:15] Stephanie: And uh, you know, when it comes to the social work profession, there's such a broad range between people whose jobs look very similar to any other type of therapist, people who do counseling, uh, and, [00:03:30] uh, jobs that are more in terms of resources. And so can you describe what the social work position looked like while working with cancer patients?
[00:03:39] Tammy: Sure. So, um, and thanks for asking that question, because different institutions, so, [00:03:45] uh, licensed clinical social workers have different roles. Some just do what we call discharge planning or tangible concrete service work, meaning providing, you know, resources. I did a little bit of that, but we had specific navigators, [00:04:00] patient navigators who did that.
[00:04:01] Tammy: So my role was really, which it had always been, um, a very clinical role, so counseling and therapy with patients. Who are undergoing their treatment. So I would meet with [00:04:15] them while they were getting their chemotherapy. Uh, I would meet with their families during their treatment as well. A lot of, um, it was all in person, you know, COVID, we met generally, [00:04:30] um, via, via zoom, via telehealth.
[00:04:33] Tammy: But it's really just sitting with the patients and their families, prepping them, helping them through the rigors of their treatment from an emotional and from a psychological [00:04:45] stance and perspective. Alongside my psychiatric colleagues. A lot of referrals to psychiatry for depression, for anxiety, um, different comorbid disorders.
[00:04:58] Tammy: Yeah.
[00:04:59] Stephanie: [00:05:00] There in the hospital, uh, pri prior to and. After, no, prior to the pandemic lockdown era, um, you were in the hospital there with patients while they're receiving chemotherapy, while they're going through cancer treatment. [00:05:15] Sort of holding their hand through this. This is
[00:05:16] Tammy: an outpatient facility. This was, this is an outpatient cancer hospital, so all the treatment was outpatient.
[00:05:24] Tammy: I would, did not have real access to seeing them when they were inpatient. 'cause inpatient [00:05:30] treatment was at a different facility. It was at the University of Washington Medical Center. So I was more outpatient. All outpatient.
[00:05:38] Stephanie: Yeah. So you were there for people during what was probably the hardest thing that many of them had ever gone through?
[00:05:44] Stephanie: [00:05:45] Yes.
[00:05:45] Tammy: At diagnosis, right at the moment of diagnosis all the way through end of life really. Yeah. And that's always been what I've done, you know, um, there was about a decade or so [00:06:00] beforehand where I had worked only with patients who were undergoing stem cell transplantation, and they were in the hospital and I was inpatient.
[00:06:11] Tammy: I worked inpatient for many, many years, and [00:06:15] I wasn't with them when they were initially diagnosed. I was with them in the latter stages of their illness and many, many times at the time of their death, this job was a little different. Um, I was following them from the point of diagnosis [00:06:30] through the rigors of their treatment, through the survivorship phase and sometimes through some palliative treatment through end of life care.
[00:06:40] Tammy: Yeah.
[00:06:41] Stephanie: That is
[00:06:42] Tammy: really sacred
[00:06:43] Stephanie: work. [00:06:45]
[00:06:45] Tammy: It was, it was for 23 terrific years, it really was. I've been a clinical social worker for. 26 years now, and I would say probably 23 out of those years were in facilities. I [00:07:00] started my work, I was born and raised in Toronto, Canada, and came to the US you know, in the, in the nineties, in the late nineties, mid to late nineties, and I've been here ever since.
[00:07:11] Tammy: So started in oncology [00:07:15] then. Yeah.
[00:07:16] Stephanie: So what led you to do such arguably incredibly difficult work?
[00:07:22] Tammy: I always wanted to do it. I just didn't know if I could do it. Um, my father died when I was about five and a half years [00:07:30] old, at a time when cancer care, oncology care was very much in its infancy, certainly in Canada, probably in the US as well.
[00:07:39] Tammy: And I always say today he probably would've been alive, you know, because treatments are so much more advanced. [00:07:45] But I really grew up knowing two things about. Cancer patients. I grew up knowing that they lost their hair and that they vomited a lot. And you know, from a child's perspective, you could see what I saw probably [00:08:00] at home.
[00:08:00] Tammy: I don't really remember him being ill, but I remember, I remember him and I think it always stayed with me. And then when I got into school, my mother was a, a psychiatric nurse and raised, raised my [00:08:15] brother and I on her own. Um, she was a psych nurse and I really wanted to get into, I think, the psychiatric aspect of social work.
[00:08:26] Tammy: But oncology never left me. I was just always really scared [00:08:30] about, gosh, what would I feel? How would I feel if I got into it? And when I was doing my undergrad in social work in, in, in Toronto, Canada, there was an opportunity in my last year of school and my fourth year [00:08:45] to intern for eight months. One of the largest oncology cancer centers in the city in downtown Toronto.
[00:08:54] Tammy: And I took it and I had a really hard time. The first six weeks I was like, I don't know, [00:09:00] maybe I should do something else. Maybe I should go work with, you know, I didn't know what I was gonna do, but I had a really hard time navigating it. For the first six, six and a half weeks, I would say remember it well, I was very anxious about it.
[00:09:13] Tammy: And then [00:09:15] somehow it just overtook me. And I got into, I had a very, very good mentor at the time, my supervisor at the time, and she said to me, Tammy, just get into the patient story. Just get into the patient's story and the rest will kind of take care [00:09:30] of itself. And it did. And I got into their story. And by the end of that year, I knew that probably my master's degree I wasn't gonna be allowed to.
[00:09:40] Tammy: 'cause they like for you to have a variety of, of internships and a variety of experience, a [00:09:45] diverse. Experience, but I knew that I was not gonna sway and I didn't. And of course I went on and I did, um, I worked in Harlem for one, which was really interesting with um, and more of like [00:10:00] community mental health.
[00:10:01] Tammy: And then I worked for one year, um, with liver, liver transplant, liver and kidney transplant in my master's. And then when I got out, I applied for a job in oncology and got a job in oncology and, [00:10:15] you know, stayed true to my desire ever since. So I think in saying all this, this wasn't just a job for me, this wasn't a nine to five where you clock in at nine and you know what, I'm outta here by five.
[00:10:29] Tammy: This was a [00:10:30] career built on passion. I would do a lot of research with different physicians and nurses that I knew across the country, across the world. I was part of different associations I had. [00:10:45] I had everything in it and, and then, and then I didn't.
[00:10:51] Stephanie: You're exactly the kind of person that any of us would want by our side if we were to find ourselves in that unfortunate position.
[00:10:58] Stephanie: You had a real heart for the [00:11:00] work.
[00:11:00] Tammy: I had a heart for the work. Thank you for saying that. I had a heart for the work. I still do. But you know, you, you reinvent yourself. You know, you, you learn to pivot and navigate when you have [00:11:15] hardships in life. And certainly the last few years were, were a big hardship.
[00:11:20] Stephanie: I'm thinking about the wisdom you must have gained being with so many people by their deathbed. I mean, there, there's so much we have to learn. I've never been with anybody [00:11:30] at the moment of death. Um. But I've heard that, that that's where some of the greatest wisdom comes from is, is being with people in that moment of, um, humility and surrender and hearing what their [00:11:45] greatest loves and greatest regrets were.
[00:11:47] Stephanie: Um, I've actually been learning a lot about near death experiences lately. That's kind of my, my current fascination. So you must have gained so much wisdom from that position.
[00:11:57] Tammy: Did you know I had a patient [00:12:00] once, many years ago and he said to me, he died about two days after he told me this. He said to me, I want you to remember you're born with nothing.
[00:12:11] Tammy: You chase everything, right? People chase the [00:12:15] status, money, material goods, and you leave with nothing. And I always. Remember that. And I do believe that that's true. You know, sure. We wanna work and, you know, um, and [00:12:30] save up and we wanna leave wealth or goods for our loved ones, right, for our beneficiaries.
[00:12:36] Tammy: And, but I've always remembered that. I've always remembered that. And I think this particular patient, did he know, like a lot of patients [00:12:45] towards the end of their life, when they really lean in, they do a lot of what we call like a legacy review, like a life review. It's tremendously rich work. Yeah.
[00:12:54] Stephanie: I will share from my, um, my latest reading, I, I read Imagine Heaven, and then [00:13:00] Imagine the God of Heaven by John Burke.
[00:13:01] Stephanie: Do you know these books? I
[00:13:03] SKOT: don't.
[00:13:04] Stephanie: They're some of the most beautiful books I've ever read. Uh, based on almost a thousand near death experiences, which confirm what scripture says about, uh, [00:13:15] the afterlife. And, um, so a life review. Is, um, a common experience for people who have these near-death experiences.
[00:13:25] Stephanie: Some of them were actually clinically dead for up to like 12 hours, uh, and [00:13:30] then miraculously resuscitated some of the people who had these experiences. And, um, what's really striking about the commonalities in life Reviews. For one, people have the experience that God is there unconditionally loving them, [00:13:45] but they are judging themselves and what they're being shown in the Life Review, which is often described as being kind of all around them, almost like a, a theater with screens everywhere of all these different scenes from their life.
[00:13:57] Stephanie: People are shown [00:14:00] not only what they experience, but how other people experience them. They're able to see themselves from others' perspectives. And the major, uh, memories that are shown back to them are. Oftentimes very small things, [00:14:15] but where they had a ripple effect on others, both positively and negatively through their thoughts, words, and actions.
[00:14:21] Stephanie: And so the common theme that a lot of people who've had near death experiences walk away with is very much in alignment with some of the wisdom that you've gained [00:14:30] from working with your patients is, is not about people's accomplishments. In fact, there were stories where people, uh, during the Life review, they said to Jesus, um, what about this and that accomplishment?
[00:14:43] Stephanie: And it just wasn't in the life [00:14:45] review, but what was, there were often these small moments where they made a difference in someone's lives. Um, and that God cares most about our relationships and how we love people. Um. So what, what, what sacred work you were doing. Um, [00:15:00] and it also, uh, sounds like it prepared you for loss, uh, to, to work with people in loss, and that's, there's kind of a bitter irony there that you were forced to lose something so [00:15:15] meaningful to you.
[00:15:15] Stephanie: So, um, so you said you did this work for 23 years and, uh, the nature of it shifted during the pandemic lockdowns when people were moving online. Um, tell us, actually, no, before we get to that [00:15:30] point in your story, were there moments prior to this point in your story, uh, where there was the conflict over politics and wokeness and DEI and stuff like that were, were there moments where you felt [00:15:45] that kind of intruding into the profession?
[00:15:47] Tammy: You know, really not until I would say 2017. Or so, um, and I, um, in my experience that occurred for [00:16:00] several because of several different reasons. Um, the culture, the environment and the people, the nature of the absolute people that I was working with. Uh, and I had never [00:16:15] experienced that before. I had lived in other large liberal cities in this country.
[00:16:22] Tammy: Toronto, Canada's a large liberal city. It's in Canada, but I lived in New York City. I lived in Boston where I worked [00:16:30] for about a decade or so. I hadn't experienced it to the degree that I experienced it during those years, so it didn't, I didn't feel it the first [00:16:45] year that I was there. It began about a year and a half or so into my.
[00:16:51] Tammy: Time there.
[00:16:52] Stephanie: And I wanna differentiate between what you experienced with the, um, with your [00:17:00] coworkers and the administration, uh, versus what patients might bring up. Because if, if patients bring something up and you're there to serve them, your role is clearly defined. And I I'm sure you had patients all over the political [00:17:15] map.
[00:17:15] Stephanie: Yep.
[00:17:15] Tammy: Probably. But I would never know because if you have to walk into a cancer center, all of that goes out the window. What you are scared and concerned about is your life. You're, you may [00:17:30] be previously concerned about poll numbers, you know, whether somebody is, you know, uh, Republican, whether somebody is libertarian, whether somebody is liberal socialist, maybe [00:17:45] never, ever once in my career.
[00:17:48] Tammy: Ever have I had a patient look at me and say, you're white. I can't talk to you. You're conservative. I can't talk to you. Are you conservative? Are you [00:18:00] liberal? Are you like me?
[00:18:01] SKOT: No.
[00:18:02] Tammy: Patients come into a cancer center, scared, anxious, probably depressed, but probably more anxious and scared than anything else.
[00:18:14] Tammy: What, [00:18:15] what, what is on my agenda that day at the cancer center? Do I have imaging? Am I gonna learn what those images show? Has my cancer progressed? Do I indeed have cancer? How much longer do I have to live? What kind of [00:18:30] treatments am I gonna get? It is extremely treatment focused. I am there, everybody is there to help patients and support patients physically, emotionally, [00:18:45] psychologically, spiritually.
[00:18:48] Tammy: Get through their diagnosis and their treatment. Next stage is if they're in the survivorship stage and they survive, wonderful. We see [00:19:00] you back for, you know, frequent then infrequent follow ups just to make sure everything's okay. If things go the other way and they become, you know, they relapse, we start over again and we get them through [00:19:15] that again, this is not about politics, this is about one's life and what happens to them during a diagnosis and a treatment, and that is very, that should be always, should be number one [00:19:30] because, you know, it would be different if a patient came to me and said, Hey, I don't wanna talk about my cancer or my treatment or anything.
[00:19:38] Tammy: I wanna talk about politics. Never ever had it come into play. Well,
[00:19:44] Stephanie: what you say [00:19:45] makes perfect sense to me. I am thinking about my own mother and I think she would be the exceptional patient because I think my mom, um, bless her heart, politics is such a [00:20:00] distraction. From her own stuff and from things closer to home.
[00:20:04] Stephanie: And so I can totally imagine her, I mean, because I've been there when she's in the hospital and she is frail and she wants to talk about what's happening on the other side of the planet. [00:20:15] Um, so I, I can imagine the odd patient who copes by getting mad about Ukraine or something, you know? Sure, sure. Um, but what you say makes, makes perfect sense.
[00:20:28] Stephanie: Of course. I mean, [00:20:30] this is, this is what matters in, in cancer social work. Yeah. Um, okay. But then something shifted in 2017, so tell us what happened.
[00:20:41] Tammy: Yeah, so, um, the group, it was a fairly [00:20:45] small group of social workers that my department was comprised of. I think with some per diems, it was maybe about 14, 15 total.
[00:20:51] Tammy: So it was a pretty small group. I worked years prior and much larger. Departments of 40 plus. Um, [00:21:00] and there were two particular, you know, colleagues who I found to be, um, quite, quite radical. You know, they were, they were self-described social justice [00:21:15] warriors. I had never been around people like this before.
[00:21:17] Tammy: I could feel their anger, their judgment, um, felt very uncomfortable I think around them. And I, I [00:21:30] had let my manager know. I think about that several times. And, um, and then I was asked to supervise them because I was licensed. They were pre-licensed and so I supervised one of them [00:21:45] and that really lasted just a very short period of time because she said that I disregarded her in some way.
[00:21:56] Tammy: You know, and then she became [00:22:00] supervised by, eventually by my manager, took over her, she was very forceful individual, and then her best friend came on to the scene and she was hired into our department and my manager [00:22:15] asked me to supervise her. And I really didn't want to, obviously, I just didn't trust that anything that I was gonna say, uh, was going to be, and these were two women of color.
[00:22:28] Tammy: Um, anything that I was gonna [00:22:30] say or not say was going to be, you know, viewed as okay by them. Like, I wasn't gonna win in any way. Um, so why, why? Why do that? Why do that? Um, but I did, and that didn't last long [00:22:45] either. And she basically had said to my manager, well, I don't feel safe around her. I don't feel safe with Tammy Safe.
[00:22:55] Tammy: What do you mean safe? We're talking about clinical cases, we're talking about how are you're doing with your [00:23:00] patients and, and clinical interventions and, um, so. That was, you know, my first sense that, oh boy, I don't know what's going on here, but
[00:23:14] Stephanie: can we slow [00:23:15] this part down? 'cause I feel like this is one of those important pieces to clarify.
[00:23:19] Stephanie: And it's, it's things like this that get, you know, there are reviews on my podcast on Apple podcasts that say that my podcast is racist. Um, [00:23:30] so it's things like this, right? Where, because you mentioned race, it can be interpreted in a bad faith way, but I just wanna slow down and make sure we understand what's happening here.
[00:23:40] Stephanie: So one is, I'm understanding these were young coworkers, right?
[00:23:43] Tammy: Correct. They were both [00:23:45] pre-licensed. And so when you're pre-licensed, you have to work to accumulate some hours and, um, and you need a supervisor to do that for. So I was asked to supervise and I loved to supervise. I'd [00:24:00] supervised previously. I loved imparting knowledge and supporting.
[00:24:06] Tammy: Supporting fellow clinicians, you know? Mm-hmm. To get licensed to learn. Yeah.
[00:24:11] Stephanie: Well, yeah. And that's part of the tradition in, in your [00:24:15] field and in a lot of fields. Mine as well, the tradition of mentorship. Um, absolutely. Yeah. But I'm also hearing a generational issue that there are certain trends that are more culturally [00:24:30] normative for people of a younger generation and things like looking through this lens that sees privilege and oppression hierarchies everywhere.
[00:24:40] Stephanie: That is something that these young women might've been kind of brought [00:24:45] up with, like, this is the correct way to think. This is how everyone around us thinks. And so in that context, race is one of those things that gets mapped onto that. And so I'm wondering if part of your hesitancy, when you [00:25:00] felt reluctant.
[00:25:01] Stephanie: To be in any kind of, um, supervisory role with these young women. It's 'cause you were noticing, if I'm understanding correctly, that they were looking through this filter, kind of looking for grievances wherever they went [00:25:15] and that race had a significance to them, uh, that might be quite different from the significance it had to you.
[00:25:21] Stephanie: And so I'm hearing almost like, um, a vigilant response going, oh, they're gonna see me not as [00:25:30] Tammy with 20 years of experience serving cancer patients. Tammy with the heart of gold. They're not gonna see me that way. They're gonna see me as white lady older than them telling them what to do. How dare she?
[00:25:41] Stephanie: So there was something going on Yeah. That made [00:25:45] you feel really hesitant there.
[00:25:46] Tammy: Correct? I had, I had observed them in other, um, uh. Situations in the department at work. And I had seen other instances where they took [00:26:00] up a torch for something, you know, that um, that really didn't need to be taken up and with such intensity and vigor and I certainty even.
[00:26:13] Tammy: Yes, yes, [00:26:15] yes, yes, of course, of course. And so I think it was, you know, it was the, it was sort of like, we're gonna resist all the way kind of thing. Um, it was that kind of mentality. And so it made me feel [00:26:30] very uncomfortable and I just wanted to impart my knowledge. I wanted to learn about their cases, I wanted to help them.
[00:26:38] Tammy: I wanted to just. Be a presence, be a steady presence, you know, in their learning [00:26:45] environment. And it didn't go that way. And so then, um, my manager, who was also white and fair skinned and blonde, um, but she was the manager, you know, she, she ended up [00:27:00] taking over and for their, their supervision. And she had a hard time as well, but she was in a much different position than me.
[00:27:07] Tammy: She was in a more senior position because she was in management. So I would imagine that the [00:27:15] relationship was slightly different, right. Um, I'm not the kind person who's going to pull rank because I'm your supervisor. I, I, I don't do, I'm your colleague. I happen to have a a license. You need a license. Let, [00:27:30] let's work together and join together and impart knowledge.
[00:27:33] Tammy: Um, but that, that didn't work out. So. What happened, Stephanie, you're exactly right. It was, it could be generational, it could be different backgrounds. Certainly grew up different [00:27:45] backgrounds. I grew up, you know, um, Jewish and faced antisemitism in my life as I think most Jewish men and women do. Um, it's not exclusive to today, and it's not exclusive [00:28:00] to 80 years ago.
[00:28:01] Tammy: It's a constant in a, in a Jewish person's life. I've always held that, you know? Um, so I think that they, I think probably they probably [00:28:15] saw me as some white privileged person, you know, and I have never seen myself thought of myself or felt myself to be that. I am, uh, yes, I am white. I'm [00:28:30] Jewish. I'm a social worker.
[00:28:32] Tammy: I'm a woman. Um, I'm a human being with experiences, varied experiences in life,
[00:28:39] Stephanie: experiences that were very pertinent toward the job at hand. Many of you listening to this show are [00:28:45] concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity, and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction.
[00:28:53] Stephanie: I developed ROGD repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a [00:29:00] self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools. The families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children even when they're adults.
[00:29:14] Stephanie: Visit r [00:29:15] gd repair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code, some therapist 2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGD repair.com. [00:29:30] I believe the word is, is it telos? Or telos? Do you know the word I'm thinking of? Um, what, how do, how is it pronounced telos? I think it's telos.
[00:29:39] Stephanie: Telos, yeah. Um, yeah. I was, I was on an interview recently with [00:29:45] Paige Herman on her podcast, and she said, never make fun of someone for, uh, pronouncing a word wrong, because that means they learned it by reading. So the, the telos of, um, the, the essential mission, the core [00:30:00] purpose. Of an organization or a job description has to be one single unifying mission.
[00:30:07] Stephanie: And in this case, you, you had a mission as a group to serve cancer patients during the hardest moments of their life. That was [00:30:15] the job. Yes. And I think what, what we're seeing here that we're seeing so many different versions of in other fields as well, is a, a clash of, of telos. Because in the counseling profession, for example, very adjacent [00:30:30] to what you were doing then, um, there's, you know, the question of, is our mission to serve the patients or is our mission to be social justice warriors?
[00:30:42] Stephanie: Um, we've seen the same thing in education, right? [00:30:45] People go into these fields with an edu, with a, an agenda. And there's this whole school philosophy behind it. The queer theory stuff that, uh, essentially. If, if you look into what queer theory teaches, it's [00:31:00] that people should go into these professions with this agenda to dismantle the telos of the profession from within and turn it into, um, a.
[00:31:14] Stephanie: A vehicle [00:31:15] for achieving these other aims. So in that way it feels quite parasitic. It makes me think about how a virus works. Um, you, you know better than I, 'cause you've worked in the medical field, but it's my understanding that a virus works primarily through acting on bacteria [00:31:30] cells, not through our own body cells, if I'm my understanding.
[00:31:32] Stephanie: Correct. But the virus will infect bacteria cells and essentially repurpose them that now instead of the bacteria cell, they're to fulfill its own function. Now its job is to [00:31:45] replicate more of the virus. So there's the TELUS of the organization providing care to cancer patients, and then there's, there's this woke intrusion and you start to feel that feeling of walking on eggshells.
[00:31:57] Stephanie: That is often an indicator that [00:32:00] cluster B dynamics have entered the room. And then there's this dismantling of the purpose repurposing, refocusing. And I'm thinking you have such important. Work to do. If you're working with cancer patients, and some of it is very time [00:32:15] sensitive, there are people on their deathbeds.
[00:32:17] Stephanie: Um, there are people who need their handheld right this moment. Um, there are families in crisis and these people are treating it like, I mean, there's, there's a time suck factor. There's a time and [00:32:30] energy suck by kind of redirecting the mission of the organization to this idea of social justice. And so everyone's function gets redefined.
[00:32:41] Tammy: Correct. And it can be very confusing. And [00:32:45] medical care, cancer care, working in any kind of a medical institution is and should be an apolitical matter period. End of story politics. You [00:33:00] should be talking politics. If you work for a political think tank, if you work for the DNC or the RNC, don't bring it into the hospital.
[00:33:08] Tammy: Don't bring it in with cancer patients. And I think, you know, as the years went by, [00:33:15] you know, these particular colleagues would be making grimaces at me. They were there for about another two years, and then they left and went on to other, other jobs. But what happened in the [00:33:30] culture of the department and in the environment that I worked in, DEI became much more, it blossomed.
[00:33:38] Tammy: It just blossomed and took off. And
[00:33:42] Stephanie: can I ask about, I, I know you're ready for that part [00:33:45] of the story, but can I, during the time that these two young women were there, how did they treat patients?
[00:33:51] Tammy: You know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know because I didn't really work with them. I don't know. I think that they [00:34:00] probably felt that they were being empathic.
[00:34:02] Tammy: I, you know, they didn't lose their jobs so. I think they were doing their jobs. Um, but I don't know because I wouldn't accompany them. So I really [00:34:15] couldn't comment because I, I could only see their behavior with other staff. Um, and that was, I think, concerning to me. Certainly their behavior towards B was very concerning.
[00:34:28] Tammy: Um, one of [00:34:30] them had called me a white kike. Kike is a derogatory term for a Jewish person. Um, I've never been called that before.
[00:34:42] Stephanie: So you can imagine why I'm concerned for the patients, [00:34:45] right? Sure. Because I mean, you cannot have that kind of racist or antisemitic.
[00:34:51] SKOT: Of course,
[00:34:51] Stephanie: of course. You in that role, right.
[00:34:53] Stephanie: Like, were any of, of the whiter Jewish patients safe with them?
[00:34:58] Tammy: Right. I mean, I don't [00:35:00] know. I, I, I, I, I don't know. But that certainly leads you to have a question mark, right? Yeah. Stephanie and, and, and, and, and I think, you know, to your point, and I, each time I was being intimidated by them, or I was [00:35:15] called that within the moment, I raised it with my manager.
[00:35:21] Tammy: I found her, I reported it. I asked for something to be done, nothing was ever done. So I immediately, [00:35:30] I cataloged it and reported it. Of course, I'm gonna report it, you know, I mean, managers are there, hopefully to protect everybody, but to really listen to your concerns and take them seriously, just kind of like human resources is.
[00:35:44] Tammy: [00:35:45] Um, so it, it was, it was,
[00:35:49] Stephanie: it was vicious. It was vicious. Okay. So those two women were there for a couple of years. You had to walk on eggshells around them. There's a concern [00:36:00] in the back of my mind at least. So, you know, they're gonna treat their colleagues like this or their patients. Okay. Um, but you, it sounds like that was the beginning of a cultural change in the organization.
[00:36:10] Tammy: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think they were pretty effective in pushing, pushing [00:36:15] my manager into going, I think even more now, looking back, it feels like it was more hard left, you know, and pushing everyone else, and everyone else was like, yeah, you know, so it, it felt like the [00:36:30] department to me was one big social justice warrior, kind of that it was trending in that direction.
[00:36:37] Tammy: That's what it felt like to me.
[00:36:39] Stephanie: I have curiosity about how that works, because these two [00:36:45] personalities sound very off-putting. They don't sound like, um. People with the charisma to attract others to their cause in the way that, you know, honey, your nectar attracts right. It feels more like vinegar. [00:37:00] Um, so, so it's interesting that they had this impact and I'm wondering if the impact isn't through, um, creating an attractive aroma of goodness that just makes people wanna draw near, if [00:37:15] that's not what's happening, what was happening?
[00:37:16] Stephanie: Were they getting into people's fear of. Fear of being seen as the bad guy. Fear of, you know, if, if I don't claim my stake on the privilege, oppression hierarchy, I'm gonna get [00:37:30] labeled an oppressor. Like what was going on there?
[00:37:33] Tammy: Yeah. You know, I don't know. I think so. I mean, I, I think so now, hindsight, right?
[00:37:38] Tammy: 2020. But I, I think that that's probably what was at play. And, and they were very well-liked by [00:37:45] many of the, many, many of the other, uh, social work colleagues and other colleagues just within the small group. They were really, really, they were well-liked. Yeah. Um, but you had [00:38:00] to abide by their doctrine, right?
[00:38:04] Tammy: What was coming out of their, of their mouths, what they were preaching, what they were assuming, what they were saying. You sort of had to abide by that [00:38:15] is what it felt like. And I didn't wanna have any part of that. So I just. Tried to steer clear. And when I did feel that they were, um, quite frankly, I felt like it was harassment [00:38:30] towards me.
[00:38:30] Tammy: I reported it, I reported it. I mean, that's really what it is labeled as, but I reported it. Yeah. But it's in keeping with the environment, you know, the environment was very toxic at the time. It began to be more and more [00:38:45] toxic. And I just, you know, I just would sit back sometimes and say, whoa, where is this coming from?
[00:38:52] Tammy: All I wanna do is come to work, see my patients. I loved my team. I had great relationships with my physicians [00:39:00] and nurses who are not like this. If they were, they certainly didn't bring it into the workplace with me. Um. Fantastic physicians, great medicine at that institution. But within my [00:39:15] enclave of social work, it felt very oppressive.
[00:39:18] Stephanie: There's a real missed opportunity for these, these young people who could have received that training that you wanted to offer them and, and that all the elders with more experience could have [00:39:30] offered them. If, if only they'd had humility, if only they'd come in thinking we don't know everything and, and we're grateful for this opportunity.
[00:39:38] Stephanie: What a blessing to be able to do this work. If, if only there was gratitude and IL humility there, there [00:39:45] would've been, um, such a growth opportunity there. Yeah. And
[00:39:49] Tammy: they don't, they didn't, their lens was different than perhaps many others. You know, it was a different lens that they were operating from for sure.[00:40:00]
[00:40:01] Stephanie: So, uh, this, this all eventually led to, um. A climax of sorts. So what were some of the precipitating incidents that drove things to add, you know,
[00:40:10] Tammy: so then DEI became a lot more prominent in the [00:40:15] institution, certainly in my department and probably around the country too. Um, definitely around the country.
[00:40:22] Tammy: But in my specific case, you know, I can recall there was 1D EI session, it was obviously on [00:40:30] Zoom, and my manager was always telling me, you're not speaking up enough, you're not talking enough about it, you're not talking. So I said, you know what, I'm gonna talk about an anti-Semitic event that happened to me that [00:40:45] really was very painful for me in my life.
[00:40:47] Tammy: So I did, I spoke up and I talked about a story during one of these times where I was, I think I was about 17, almost 18, and I was visiting a friend of mine. [00:41:00] Um, and. Her parents were antisemitic and her parents told her, they found out that I was Jewish and her parents told her, they didn't tell me that I had to leave their home, so I was supposed to stay [00:41:15] overnight there.
[00:41:15] Tammy: So I did. Of course, I got up and I left their home and, um, you know, it was sort of like a Jew, don't come back here, kind of thing. So it was awful. It was absolutely awful for me. Um, so I [00:41:30] talked about that and I really thought that that was a good example of, of, you know, what I would call feeling discriminated against.
[00:41:39] Tammy: And, and I remember the moderator of the [00:41:45] DEI program at, at that moment, at that time said, you know what? It doesn't matter. You're white, you can pass. Well. I think it took me a little bit to collect [00:42:00] myself because today, you know, I could say, I don't think so, 80 years ago, people who looked like me, they could be fair skinned, light skinned, they [00:42:15] couldn't pass.
[00:42:15] Tammy: They went to gas chambers. You know, they went to, they injured firing squads, home raids. It's called the Holocaust. Right? Um, they couldn't pass. So I, I, I don't really know [00:42:30] that somebody with a very Jewish last name can pass, right? So what, what they were looking at was just simply the color of my skin, and assuming from that, that I had [00:42:45] all perfect experiences in my life, that's, to me, was what it felt like, complete and utter disregard for the story that I just told.
[00:42:56] Tammy: And only look again, Stephanie. It's looking at it from this [00:43:00] one lens.
[00:43:02] Stephanie: Well, and you were cornered into being asked to have this kind of conversation again. What does it have to do with the mission of the organization? What does it has to do with treating cancer patients? It's, it's a distraction. It's, it's time spent [00:43:15] at work doing something other than work.
[00:43:16] Stephanie: And they're, they're saying everybody has to participate. So I, what I heard was like, okay, they want me to talk about this. Okay, here's something I can come up with. Right? Here's, here's a memory of a time that I, I was a, a victim of racism of a certain [00:43:30] type. Right? And then they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:43:32] Stephanie: You don't understand. No, we've already decided that you get the privilege label because you have fair skin and blonde hair. And so, uh, therefore get with the program, we [00:43:45] don't actually care about what you've been through. Tammy, that's not the point. The point is that we have a narrative that we're trying to spin.
[00:43:51] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:52] Tammy: Yeah. So that was one example of what happened. And then I think I could talk about two other examples, you know, um. [00:44:00] So President Trump won the election and he was in office and of course, um, that was a problem. And about midway through his, his, um, of course that was a problem for [00:44:15] the people that I worked with was an problem.
[00:44:17] Tammy: You're
[00:44:17] Stephanie: talking about his first term?
[00:44:20] Tammy: His first term, yeah. His first term, 2016 to 2020. Yeah. So, you know, midway through his, um, his term, [00:44:30] I have a family friend who was a quite high ranking cabinet official, and I also, through other friends of mine separate, knew other, uh, people in the Trump administration in the [00:44:45] cabinet.
[00:44:46] Tammy: Um, and it came to light one day because I had, I had actually, um, my, my friends. My friend's [00:45:00] child had cancer and I was actually their, their social worker at a different institution. Um, and so it came to light somehow. The oncology world is very small. Doctors know each [00:45:15] other very, very well. Doesn't matter if you're on the west coast and the East coast and the southeast or in the northeast even.
[00:45:21] Tammy: Doesn't matter if you're in Ireland or you're in America. They all know each other because they all go to the same conferences and they all work on similar research projects [00:45:30] together, and they write things together. So, um, it just came to light through a series of events that I knew this. This person, this high profile person.
[00:45:42] Tammy: And I think that is really something that I [00:45:45] endured a lot of harassment for. I had a physician who was quite a, who I loved very much, who I worked pretty closely with, would email me on, on our company email, you [00:46:00] know, articles, New York time articles of this, this cabinet member your buddy.do criminal, you know, uh, several times.
[00:46:10] Tammy: And I didn't need to wake up and check my email in the morning when I'm at my desk [00:46:15] and start my day off with those kinds of emails. And it kind of began to reach a point, not only via email, but also talking with me in the back room, you know, where a lot of the physicians write their notes. And [00:46:30] I would sit there, I had my own, my own seat there and I would do my notes and you know, that, um.
[00:46:37] Tammy: People knew openly that I knew this person. And I would get attacked a lot of the times for [00:46:45] things that the president was doing or wasn't doing for their hatred for them, for him. You know, people hate the president, what are you gonna do? You know? I'm not the president's boss. I don't have ties. But [00:47:00] it didn't matter.
[00:47:01] Tammy: It didn't matter. It was the environment. So if you can imagine going to work day in and day out every day, five days a week, hearing that it kind of reaches a threshold where you're exhausted, kind of [00:47:15] angry.
[00:47:16] Stephanie: So being harassed daily over the fact that you were friends with someone in the administration?
[00:47:22] Stephanie: Yeah, definitely.
[00:47:24] Tammy: Definitely. And I reported that again, nothing happened. I was told, I think when I [00:47:30] reported it, I remember being told, well. You don't really know that person that well, do you? I mean, it's not like you're gonna have dinner with them. And I said, yeah, no, I just had dinner with them and their family.[00:47:45]
[00:47:45] Tammy: It was in DC a couple of weeks ago. You know? Oh, you do know them? Oh, okay. Well, you have two options. You know, if I got involved, it really wouldn't be great for you. But if you deal with it yourself, you know, [00:48:00] pro you have the relationships with your, with your team members, you should probably just deal with it, Tammy.
[00:48:07] Tammy: So that's what I was told.
[00:48:09] Stephanie: What made it anyone's business.
[00:48:13] Tammy: Right, right. Well, it's, it's [00:48:15] very much, it's very much the culture there that if they sense that you have deviated from their position, which is the norm, you're the enemy. You're the enemy, and we're [00:48:30] going to unleash holy hell on you. That's what it's like.
[00:48:33] Stephanie: The idea that, um, a person at any job that, that who they're friends with in their free time could become relevant. I [00:48:45] mean, so what if you have a friend who is dealing with addiction? Are you, are you guilty by association because your friend is an addict? What if, what if you [00:49:00] have a sibling who joined a cult?
[00:49:03] Stephanie: Are you guilty by association because you love someone who's in a cult with a bad reputation? I mean, where, where do we draw the line? How does it become, at what point does it become your [00:49:15] business, who your coworkers are friends with?
[00:49:18] Tammy: I think that they probably automatically assumed that I was not one of them.
[00:49:23] Tammy: That I was conservative. I never came out and ever said that I was conservative, ever. [00:49:30] Um, and. You know, they, I would get blamed for various, and comments were made for various things that that happened in the administration. And
[00:49:42] Stephanie: if you're not talking about your own [00:49:45] personal politics and all that's on the table is that it is somehow come to light that you are personal friends with someone who works for the administration.
[00:49:53] Stephanie: And it sounds like you were friends with that person before they got that job. Right? That's what I'm hearing.
[00:49:57] Tammy: Many years before. Yeah, many years.
[00:49:58] Stephanie: I mean, if [00:50:00] that's all that's come to light, then essentially what they're saying, if we're gonna say the quiet part out loud here it is. You should cut off your friends and family if they're conservative.
[00:50:12] Stephanie: Because I'm hearing you didn't even [00:50:15] say who you voted for. You didn't talk about your personal politics. You were trying to keep that, uh, boundary between work and personal life. But the implication is. If you weren't expressing [00:50:30] anything about your personal views and you were getting harassed over a connection, then the real underlying logic there is not only should everyone think and vote a certain way, but people should cut off their friends and family if they think and vote differently.
[00:50:44] Stephanie: Oh [00:50:45] yeah.
[00:50:45] Tammy: Well, funny you should say that because that was the next thing that happened that eventually led to my termination. There was an article after, I think the last DEI group program that we had. [00:51:00] There was a, um, article that a colleague sent. This colleague was also a person of color, and she sent this article over company email, and the article was [00:51:15] just about that.
[00:51:16] Tammy: It was about sitting around. It was an old article from 2016 when President Trump was first elected and it was all about. You basically need to tell your friends and family, you know how to [00:51:30] stand up and talk to your friends and family, but even more so who are conservative and who are Trumpers, but even more so how to use those skills to talk to your patients and families.
[00:51:44] Tammy: And that's [00:51:45] where I drew the line. That's where I said, I cannot believe this is coming over company email. I have to talk to my boss about this. She heard me, but she said, you have to talk [00:52:00] to, I'm not gonna handle it. You have to talk to your colleague who sent the email. She wouldn't get involved. So I, and that was in order pretty much.
[00:52:12] Tammy: So I called the colleague involved [00:52:15] and, um, we had a very pleasant conversation. She was very nice. Um, she accused me a little bit of being Republican. I still denied, you know, um, I didn't go there. I [00:52:30] just said, listen, I have friends in the administration and I like these friends, and I, I, I'm offended. I'm, I'm, I'm just, all I'm asking you is if you could just kind of screen the article, because maybe [00:52:45] not everybody, you know, you, you do that.
[00:52:48] Tammy: You don't just send something out. You know, you think about what you're gonna send out and how you're gonna send it out. Hopefully, it's not gonna be offensive to anybody. It just shows you the, the [00:53:00] mind, the thinking, the lens through which these people think is progressive politics at all costs. I would even say progressive politics before patient care.
[00:53:12] Tammy: I am not going to walk into patient care [00:53:15] and preach DEI to a patient or a family, whether they, you know, period. I'm not gonna do that. So that led to a week later, a very, very rude three page email from [00:53:30] her. From who? From her, from this colleague who I, who I was asked, told really the
[00:53:37] Stephanie: colleague who sent the article about talking to your patients about politics.
[00:53:42] Tammy: Correct. She sent [00:53:45] quite a long email to me and CC'd, HR and my boss, and said that I should really be thinking about. How I approached her and, and from my stance of white privilege and you know, [00:54:00] all this, that the Trump administration stokes the most antisemitism out of any administration, which is a flat out.
[00:54:08] Stephanie: That's funny because here you are, you're a Jewish woman who's friends with someone in the administration and they're saying, oh, the administration hates [00:54:15] you. You're like, actually, right, right.
[00:54:19] Tammy: And then about 10 days after I got that email, I was called in and I was told that I was being let go because of my lack of [00:54:30] ethnicity sensitivity.
[00:54:31] Tammy: And they just ended it by saying, do you have a ride home? Um, so yeah.
[00:54:42] Stephanie: What was the evidence that you lacked [00:54:45] sensitivity to anyone's ethnicity?
[00:54:48] Tammy: Oh, that my boss had tried for years to work with me and that it just didn't work and that they were getting complaints from colleagues from all [00:55:00] over, you know, the institution and that essentially it just wasn't going to be able to work.
[00:55:07] Stephanie: Were there any patient complaints?
[00:55:11] Tammy: Not one, and not one from any of the [00:55:15] teams that I've ever worked with. In fact, they were quite complimentary.
[00:55:20] Stephanie: And was it true from your perspective that your boss had been trying to train you differently on this?
[00:55:27] Tammy: No.
[00:55:29] Stephanie: Okay. So [00:55:30] no evidence of patient dissatisfaction. No evidence of any racist behavior.
[00:55:39] Stephanie: Towards patients or colleagues. In fact, there was racist behavior towards you and you [00:55:45] said that you didn't appreciate that and then they called you a racist for that, right?
[00:55:49] Tammy: So, you know, that was a very difficult day for me. And the weeks ahead of that after that were very difficult. The years have been very [00:56:00] difficult.
[00:56:01] Tammy: But here's the thing about me. I'm not the kind of person that is going to lay down my sword and say, well, I guess I deserved it. No, I'm going to fight and I'm gonna fight [00:56:15] as hard as I can to reclaim my character, to reclaim everything because they, in a, in a, in the stroke of a pen, they took [00:56:30] everything that I worked so hard for away from me.
[00:56:35] Tammy: Why? Because they didn't like my politics. Why? Because I was white. I was Jewish and they didn't like my Republican [00:56:45] politics.
[00:56:45] Stephanie: And you weren't, you weren't talking about your politics. They kept trying to bring up politics. They found out you had a friend in the administration. You were trying to keep it professional.
[00:56:56] Tammy: Correct. They assumed
[00:56:58] Stephanie: correct.
[00:56:59] Tammy: But [00:57:00] like many, many places that are very, very, to use the common term, woke hard, radical left. They have one lens and if [00:57:15] you are not on board and don't see life through that lens, then Stephanie, you are out. There are people there who think exactly. That somebody [00:57:30] like me should have, should have no business living or working there.
[00:57:35] Tammy: And, and, and look at what has happened since then. Right? What they're saying is people who are like me, [00:57:45] you can't work here. You can't live here. You can't collect a paycheck here. We don't want you here. You're not included to now you don't deserve to be alive. [00:58:00] Right. The assassination of somebody like Charlie Kirk, who was a dear, dear, brilliant young man, change lives and just wanted dialogue.
[00:58:11] Tammy: Just to digress for a moment, he's exactly right. I [00:58:15] had no opportunity to dialogue. When we dialogue, good things can happen. Right? We can, we can hopefully. Learn how to bridge, maybe a divide, maybe reach [00:58:30] somebody. Or we could say, you know, because what I thought so naive of me back in 2021 was, it's okay, I may disagree with this, you may agree with this, but we can still be colleagues and we [00:58:45] can still be, you know, okay with each other.
[00:58:47] Tammy: We don't have to agree on everything. But that's
[00:58:52] Stephanie: not their way. It's, it's so disturbing that this is taking place in cancer care of all places. 'cause like I [00:59:00] think about, heaven forbid, if I were to ever find myself in that situation, how much rather I'd have someone like you by my side, um, than, than to have the least bit of worry that [00:59:15] my care is at risk because.
[00:59:18] Stephanie: The professionals in charge have a bias against me because of my skin color or my political beliefs. I mean, I, I now have so much of my, uh, views expressed [00:59:30] on the internet that I'm really in God's hands here if, if I ever find myself in a vulnerable position like that, it's, it's so disturbing that they've lost the plot in that setting of all places
[00:59:44] Tammy: feared [00:59:45] from what I would say the mission, right, to include politics and to have it dominated.
[00:59:50] Tammy: And you know, when you look at things like DEI, what does DEI do? It uses shame, it uses anger, and it uses guilt to compel people into a [01:00:00] certain type of thinking and into a certain type of speech. Right. Let's take. Diversity. Sure. Of course. It's important. It's important. It's important to hear all voices, Stephanie, not just one [01:00:15] voice.
[01:00:15] Tammy: It's important to hear from people from all cultures and all backgrounds. All identities, not just one. Right. Equity, you know, very important for individuals to feel that there's, [01:00:30] you know, equality and fairness in the workplace, especially, right. For all people to feel that they're protected, not only the workplace and life in general.
[01:00:40] Tammy: Right. And then we take the eye, which is, you know, inclusion. [01:00:45] All people should be able to feel included. Oh, but wait, what it does is it's very selective. Okay. DEI is very selective in terms of which [01:01:00] groups it chooses to consider and bring in under its umbrella. Now, white, conservative Jewish woman is not somebody who they would consider, they probably wouldn't consider you either.
[01:01:14] Tammy: No, of course not. [01:01:15] Right? So, and that's just wrong. It's just wrong. We should be able to respect each other's differences in this world. We should be able to say, I don't agree with you, but we don't have to go to an [01:01:30] extreme to say, you don't deserve to live. You don't deserve to work here. You don't deserve to play in the same sandbox as me.
[01:01:38] Stephanie: Well, and there's this violent undercurrent that you're describing and, and what it is, is female. Typical social [01:01:45] aggression, right? Male violence is physical, it's overt, it is violent, it is competitive. Us women, we have our own shadow. The social violence that we spread through lies and [01:02:00] manipulation, rumors, gossip, status games, um, all under the guise of maternal care.
[01:02:09] Stephanie: It's, oh, we're trying to be inclusive. That's why we're, that's why we're after [01:02:15] you. Right. It's because we care about the most vulnerable. That's why we think you're the scum of the earth. Right. That this is what the female shadow looks like. And it's predominating, female dominated industries. [01:02:30] Nursing, social work, counseling, education.
[01:02:35] Stephanie: Yeah. And you say you don't deserve to live. And, and there's a listener that's going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Nobody threatened your life. What are you talking about? That's hyperbolic. But [01:02:45] if these, these campaigns to destroy people's reputations and livelihoods. Okay. If you don't want someone to work, you don't want them to eat.
[01:02:52] Stephanie: So where is this going? If, if not there, where do they draw the line? Where do they say that [01:03:00] you deserve your own space on God's green earth? Just as much as anyone else on the planet. We all have a right to be here.
[01:03:08] SKOT: Yeah,
[01:03:08] Stephanie: and I mean it's, it's funny, the inclusivity, 'cause I was just taking notes on DEI and thinking each of those [01:03:15] is used to mean things other than what it means, but also the opposites have equal value.
[01:03:22] Stephanie: So diversity. Well, if, what's the opposite of diversity, one way of thinking about that is unity. [01:03:30] Unity has its place too. Um, equity, this idea of distributing things equally, or not distributing things equally. But, um, how do you know with the equity, with the, you know, with the cartoon of the boys standing on the boxes, looking over the phone?
[01:03:43] Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. Right. It's, [01:03:45] um, it's the idea of creating a level playing field by, um, through this Marxist lens of taking from the rich, giving to the poor. Um, in some ways the opposite of that is justice. Mm-hmm. [01:04:00] Because how is that fair? I think from a conservative view, and Jonathan Haidt does a really good job of helping people understand this, um, that, uh, how the value of justice manifests differently [01:04:15] in people, the liberal versus conservative worldview.
[01:04:18] Stephanie: Um, and then inclusivity. Again, doesn't feel very inclusive the way they treated you, but the opposite of that exclusivity also has its place right there. [01:04:30] There's so many good things that can only be created via exclusivity. A family is an exclusive unit. A marriage excludes others. A competitive sports [01:04:45] team excludes players who don't make the cut.
[01:04:48] Stephanie: A healthy nation excludes people who would invade it or who want to live there in a way that's antithetical to the nation's values. So exclusivity also has its [01:05:00] places. So the, the, the, the mental manipulation that goes on with this language, it. It's like they're painting an image that we know what's virtuous, we define [01:05:15] what is virtuous.
[01:05:16] Stephanie: We uphold those things, we create the standards for those things. And anything outside of that is not virtuous. But you can so easily look at how that behavior is lacking in virtue and how there are virtues that are actually antithetical to [01:05:30] how they live out that agenda.
[01:05:31] Tammy: Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, I think what has emerged from this whole DEI business is people rising up and saying, enough, [01:05:45] you're not gonna tell me who I am.
[01:05:48] Tammy: You're not gonna tell me what I'm worthy of. You're not gonna tell me any of that. I know who I am. I know I'm a caring, loving, good person. We all have our faults. [01:06:00] I love this profession and I'm gonna work in this profession. And there's many people like me all around this country who. Maybe conservative Republican who do good work and you are not the [01:06:15] voice of the majority, and you are not going to tell me or us where we belong or where we don't belong.
[01:06:22] Tammy: You know, shortly after the last election, Stephanie, there was, there's all these Facebook groups, right? There's [01:06:30] a, there's a couple of conservative social work Facebook groups and mental health Facebook groups that have popped up, which have been really nice because, so we feel we need to feel included, right?
[01:06:40] Tammy: We need to have our own, we need to have our own safe space. Who came up with those, [01:06:45] those those, you know, those terms, the party of, you know, the party of inclusion, right? The party of diversity and inclusion. Um, and were not included, but. [01:07:00] You know, there are some general mental health, social work Facebook groups.
[01:07:07] Tammy: There's one where I live that I'm not active in, but I was, and shortly after, [01:07:15] president Trump's, um, you know, shortly after he won the election in 2024, this, there was a social worker who posted, I will not, and she had a whole army of people behind her. I will not allow [01:07:30] any maggots, M-A-G-G-O-T-T-S in my caseload.
[01:07:37] Tammy: I will not see any maggots and I encourage you to not see any maggots. And people were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then a [01:07:45] lot of conservative social work groups saw that posting and really reported her, reported that whole thread
[01:07:55] Stephanie: reported to her licensing board. Yeah. Oh [01:08:00] wow. Okay. So there's a counter movement with these licensing board complaints.
[01:08:04] Stephanie: 'cause you know, I've, I've been on one side of that and it's like, okay, if we're gonna go there, two can play that game. Right? Because that's such a huge bias.
[01:08:12] Tammy: People were not taking it sitting [01:08:15] down. People were like, you don't get to say something like that. That is awful thing to say, you know, in your practice, in my practice, I see all kinds of people, whether I agree with them politically or not, I don't know, because we don't talk about it.
[01:08:29] Tammy: We talk [01:08:30] about why they're coming to see me, right.
[01:08:34] Stephanie: So we'll talk in a moment about where you are today and how that story resolves. Let's take a quick break. First, are you looking to launch a podcast but find yourself overwhelmed by [01:08:45] the technical details? Or perhaps you've already gotten started podcasting, but you struggle to keep up with the parts that aren't fun?
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[01:09:38] Stephanie: Pods by Nick Podcasting. Simplified. Alright, so back to your story. You had [01:09:45] mentioned that you're in private practice now. So tell us how you got from this scandalous environment to where you are today.
[01:09:52] Tammy: Well, I filed a lawsuit and, um, that lawsuit settled very quickly [01:10:00] and that is now behind me. Um, and after that was over, I were in the midst of that and prior to that I had to rebuild my life.
[01:10:13] Tammy: I had to work on [01:10:15] myself. I had to recover from the trauma that I experienced because it was very real trauma. Uh, but I felt quite passionate about, um, [01:10:30] still doing work and still working. And, you know, all I can really say is that it took a lot of work to rebuild my life, and it's still in the process of rebuilding, [01:10:45] um, painful, hard, but I'm the kind of person who I do believe that one should, I should pull myself up [01:11:00] from the bootstraps kind of thing.
[01:11:02] Tammy: My mother's deceased, my father's deceased grandparents. So my family is, you know, I have one sibling and he has his own family, so I can't fully rely on him to [01:11:15] pull me out. But he was a terrific support and wonderful, a wonderful brother. But I have good friends who believe me, who validated me and who really supported me.
[01:11:29] Tammy: But I had to [01:11:30] get out, I had to get myself up every day, Stephanie, and I had to tell myself that I was gonna make it, that I was gonna, you know, make a living. That I was gonna put food on the table, that I was gonna take care of my dogs, that I was going to be able to [01:11:45] get through all of this because it felt like such a character assault.
[01:11:50] Tammy: Um, and the wound. The wound. I think the wound will always be there to a certain extent, but I'm very much the kind of person [01:12:00] that, okay, what's next? Let's move forward. Him moving forward too quickly. Okay. Let me back backtrack a little bit. Go a little bit slower. Okay. You know, take some of my own advice and slowly built, built myself a practice, um, [01:12:15] work for like a couple of different practices too, and piecemealed together a life.
[01:12:22] Tammy: For years, I, you know, worked for institutions and I had everything covered. I had, [01:12:30] you know, healthcare covered all my insurance, everything, 401k, um, all of that went away because I had to survive and I had to live. But I'm tenacious and I won't give up. [01:12:45] And also, you know, since then, it's been really interesting because I've had people contact me probably a handful times a year over the last four years.
[01:12:56] Tammy: People who have found themselves in my situation, [01:13:00] they may not have all been therapists. Many have, what do I do? It's a virulent, uh, woke environment. What do you think I should do? What can I do? Who can I turn to? So I would, you know, give them some suggestions, but I would listen to them. But what I [01:13:15] mainly did was.
[01:13:16] Tammy: I hope, you know, according to their feedback was validate them. Because when you're in this, you feel very, very alone and it's very, very isolating. So, um, I hope [01:13:30] people who are listening to this, who are experiencing it, you know, know that they're not alone. This happens to people.
[01:13:38] Stephanie: That sounds really hard.
[01:13:39] Stephanie: And you also moved across the country during this? I did transition. I
[01:13:42] Tammy: had a very good friend and colleague [01:13:45] in North Carolina who, uh, said to me, you know, who told me it's a great place to live? So I went and checked it out and I really fell in love with the city, um, that I'm in now. I live in Charlotte and I really [01:14:00] fell in love with the city and I said I could really build a life here.
[01:14:03] Tammy: Um, it was sunny. It's a bit of a lack of sun in the Pacific Northwest, as you know. Um, so it felt, it just worked. It worked out. Yeah. A lot of hard
[01:14:14] Stephanie: work. [01:14:15] And how was it transferring your license as a social worker from Washington?
[01:14:21] Tammy: It wasn't hard to, it wasn't hard. I had some, I had some good, good previous supervisors and colleagues that I had worked with that had known [01:14:30] me for over two decades who were able to, you know, vouch for me and it wasn't hard at all.
[01:14:36] Tammy: Yeah. And have since gotten licensed in other states as well, you know, for, for work purposes and telehealth and all that.
[01:14:43] Stephanie: Yeah. Oh, that's great. [01:14:45] Do you find it challenging to keep up with all the licenses, all the renewal fees and things like that?
[01:14:50] Tammy: Yeah, I think, you know, there's a thing called the compact, the site compact that's coming on board that hopefully for social work will, will, [01:15:00] will happen in the next year or so, which means that, you know, uh, social workers from different states will be able to work across state lines without being licensed in that particular state.
[01:15:12] Tammy: So that's gonna be really, it's really [01:15:15] a great thing in the state of North Carolina. The governor just signed it, so, um, hopefully that's something really, really positive to look forward to.
[01:15:23] Stephanie: Oh, that's encouraging. I know some people who are licensed with, um, spac, but that's only for clinical [01:15:30] psychologists in certain states, correct?
[01:15:32] Stephanie: Correct, correct, correct.
[01:15:34] Tammy: Yeah. I also do a lot of volun, I do some volunteer work for an organization that's near and dear to my heart and in Washington DC that I'm very, very involved with. That gives me a lot of [01:15:45] meaning. So I've had to recreate my life from the ground up.
[01:15:52] Stephanie: Well, so it's, it's good for my listeners to know that therapists like you exist.
[01:15:57] Stephanie: Um, you know, at first I was thinking. [01:16:00] Oncology, that's gotta be so different from more like counseling, social work. But then when I heard and, and felt into what it is that you did, I thought, well, if, if someone can do that, they can really do anything. Because you've, you've been with people on their [01:16:15] deathbeds.
[01:16:16] Tammy: Yeah. And people who are newly diagnosed, who really didn't know how they're, what their prog, what their prognosis was gonna be, even if they, it was a favorable prognosis. You just never know. You know? Um, so [01:16:30] it, it really is mental health. It's mental health and cancer. People who come to cancer, people come to cancer care with anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, mood disorders.
[01:16:41] Tammy: And we just do the work and we take care of them as best [01:16:45] as we can. Yeah.
[01:16:46] Stephanie: And so now in private practice, you work with anybody.
[01:16:51] Tammy: Anybody? Yep. Anybody, uh, you know, um, people come to me from time to time who are undergoing cancer [01:17:00] care. Uh, I do a lot. Uh, the majority of my work is around with anxiety and depression and grief, A lot of grief work.
[01:17:08] Tammy: Um, because I know that works so well.
[01:17:10] Stephanie: Hmm. So
[01:17:11] Tammy: personally and professionally. Mm-hmm.
[01:17:14] Stephanie: So if [01:17:15] anyone out there listening would be interested in having you as their therapist, where would they go?
[01:17:20] Tammy: Sure. They could go to Psychology Today. They could contact you for my email.
[01:17:25] Stephanie: Oh no, don't contact me. I'll put in the show notes.
[01:17:27] Stephanie: Okay. Do not personally contact me, [01:17:30] but should I put your email address in the show notes? Sure, sure. Okay. Uh, but you don't have a website, just a Psychology Today listing. I mean, psychology Today kind of, it does it for most people. Well, what else would you like to say about sort of rising from the ashes of all this?
[01:17:44] Tammy: Yeah, rising from [01:17:45] the ashes is, is is true that it's hard. That it's hard and that it takes a tremendous amount of effort. I do believe it takes something out of me a little bit. Um, you know, each time you have a setback in [01:18:00] life, I do believe that it takes a little bit out of you. But I feel that for the most part, I've been able to reclaim my life.
[01:18:12] Tammy: Um, I [01:18:15] wanna say that I feel, even though I'm not in touch with the current administration, I feel tremendous support through the news that I hear because people in the administration themselves have been [01:18:30] targeted. So they understand this. They understand what people like me have been through. They understand it.
[01:18:35] Tammy: They understand how destructive it has been to our lives character. [01:18:45] Financial, everything. Um, and I think it's really interesting now to see institutions dismantle their diversity, equity, and inclusion offices [01:19:00] because they're afraid that they're gonna lose funding federal funding. So tables have sort of turned a little bit, I think now.
[01:19:08] Tammy: Um, so I certainly feel gratitude for that. Um, [01:19:15] but I think that, you know, I wouldn't judge anybody for not pursuing. I've certainly spoken to a lot of people, Stephanie, who have experienced what I've experienced, and they were just too afraid to pursue litigation. [01:19:30] Sure. I was scared. Everybody's scared. But you know, to me it was, well, you know what?
[01:19:37] Tammy: I'm not gonna let them intimidate me. I'm not gonna let them intimidate me because you don't get to tell me [01:19:45] what's right and what's wrong. I decide what's right for me and I decide how I'm gonna live my life. You know, you don't get to tell me any longer. So, um, I get up in the morning, [01:20:00] every morning I rise and I do my work.
[01:20:03] Tammy: I do the best work that I can, try to be the best person that I can. Um, and I live with the wounds that I have incurred and live with them, and I [01:20:15] learn how to manage them.
[01:20:17] Stephanie: Do any of your patients know your story?
[01:20:20] Tammy: No, not, not to my knowledge. They may have Googled me if they did, they haven't left me. Um, no, not that I'm aware of.
[01:20:29] Tammy: [01:20:30] Yeah.
[01:20:30] Stephanie: If. One of your patients were to discover this interview and have this be their, their introduction to what happened to you, um, before you took on your current private practice role. What would you want them to
[01:20:44] Tammy: [01:20:45] know? I hope that they would be able to glean that I dealt with things, that I manage things in the most dignified way that I could, that I have a heart for the work that I do, and that I will always, [01:21:00] always stand out for what I believe in right versus wrong, et cetera.
[01:21:06] Tammy: That I will always speak truth to what I believe in that, that I will always stand up for the truth because I don't know [01:21:15] another way to live. You know, I'm not going to cower and I'm not going to hide. I live in a much more balanced environment and if somebody doesn't want to like me because. I may have different [01:21:30] values than them, or a different background than them, or if I was raised differently than them.
[01:21:36] Tammy: That's entirely their choice and that's entirely their problem. That has nothing to do with me. [01:21:45] But I will not allow somebody to look at me and say, you don't matter, and you can't be here because of who you are. I'm obviously not willingly going to walk into those situations. Right. [01:22:00] Um, but
[01:22:05] Tammy: I have a heart for the work that I do. It has been my life's work. Part of it was taken away from me. I've had to work really hard to claw myself back [01:22:15] and to build a life for myself later in life. And I would hope that they would see. Honesty and truth in me, that's what I would hope for because [01:22:30] I'm just telling the truth.
[01:22:31] Stephanie: And what about those younger therapists? You've said that several have reached out to you at presumably different points in their career. I, I hear from the same people, whether they're in grad school, like, oh my goodness, I don't know if I can get through this process. [01:22:45] Um, what would you want them to know?
[01:22:47] Tammy: It's important to fight and it's important to sit up tall, and it's important to stand up for yourselves. It's really important to do that. And actually, you, you do begin to feel better when you do do that. Um, I, I, I do [01:23:00] believe in fighting very hard for the things that matter. Um, and I would help them fight if they wanted that to.
[01:23:10] Tammy: The people who I feel did not treat me well, I'm not [01:23:15] angry at them. I don't hate them. I actually feel compassion for them. I really do because they are so angry and they see only one very narrow lens of thought, and there's [01:23:30] so much more to see and to do in this world. I would, I would challenge them to get really good, unbiased supervision because if you can hate so much, have so much hate in your heart, [01:23:45] that's, that's concerning.
[01:23:47] Tammy: You know, that I, I, I can imagine having that so, you know, sure I may have hated them for a hot minute when I was terminated, but, um, I don't have hate, I have compassion [01:24:00] because I hope that they can soften and I hope that they can really sit with any internal feelings that they have around distress.
[01:24:13] Tammy: Other [01:24:15] people's viewpoints because we all win and the world wins and society wins, and our community wins when all voices are heard and when we can, we don't have to like each other, but when we can work [01:24:30] together or, or, or at the very least, appreciate each other, you know, I can look at somebody, Stephanie, and I can say, gee, I appreciate you, that you feel so passionately, I feel differently.
[01:24:44] Tammy: And that [01:24:45] can be okay too, right? It doesn't have to cancel you out. Doesn't have to cancel me out. I recognize that when I say that, that can sound like some type of utopia, but um, [01:25:00] I still believe that hopefully we can get there.
[01:25:03] Stephanie: It sounds like. Healthy differentiation to me. And this is one of the concepts I teach about in my course, emotional differentiation.
[01:25:11] Stephanie: You, you talk about the hate in people's hearts, [01:25:15] and that's an accusation that these sters frequently make. They point the finger and accuse people like you and me of being hateful. There's an irony to that because the same people will say that [01:25:30] certain people should have a right to define themselves regardless of how others see them.
[01:25:34] Stephanie: In other words, um, someone who identifies as the opposite sex, their perception trumps other people's perceptions of them. But then they wanna go ahead and label us. They wanna tell us [01:25:45] how we identify, right? They wanna tell us, oh, you're a hateful person 'cause I deem you hateful. It doesn't matter if you see yourself as hateful or not.
[01:25:52] Stephanie: But I think there's a lot of projection, um, a lot of projection in those accusations. And, um, [01:26:00] my prayer for anyone pointing the finger. And accusing others of having hate in their heart while themselves engaged in behavior that betrays [01:26:15] a lot of hate in their own motives. Uh, I guess I'll pray for them to wake up.
[01:26:23] Stephanie: That can be really hard. It can be humbling. It can feel like your sense of self is disintegrating, right? If you built a sense of [01:26:30] self on the sense of superiority and righteousness and certainty. Um, but it could be the beginning of a beautiful, if humbling awakening process. And I want that for them to see.
[01:26:44] Stephanie: That's definitely, [01:26:45] that's coming from inside the house, this hatred.
[01:26:48] Tammy: Absolutely. I said to myself when this happened to me that I will not be that person. I will never be that person. And I hope that I'm not, I don't think that I am. Um, [01:27:00] and I stay that course.
[01:27:02] Stephanie: Tammy, is there anything else you'd like our listeners to know?
[01:27:04] Tammy: No, I just really wanna thank you for giving me the time, the space to, you know, talk about my experience, my story, and how I [01:27:15] rose from it. Um. Thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for the work that you do. It's good work.
[01:27:22] Stephanie: You're welcome. Thank you for sharing your story, Tammy. So, um, Tammy Whiteman on Psychology Today for anyone looking for a therapist, and we'll [01:27:30] put that, uh, listing and your email address in the show notes.
[01:27:33] Stephanie: Yeah. Okay. Alright. Thanks so much, Tammy. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening to you Must Be some kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed [01:27:45] this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.
[01:27:58] Stephanie: Special thanks to Joey [01:28:00] Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD, repair. [01:28:15] Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below Rain or shine.
[01:28:25] Stephanie: I hope you'll step outside to breathe the air today in [01:28:30] the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:28:45] [01:29:00] world.