Allie Jones - Aligning Personal Genius with System Flow

Allie Jones returns to show how Working Genius helps teams find joy and energy by aligning people’s natural strengths with the work that needs to be done. She and Derek Hudson connect it to Essential Dynamics, showing how awareness, purpose, and tension create flow. Allie explains that no one can avoid their areas of frustration, but with humility and teamwork, every type of genius can contribute to something larger. Together they show that people thrive when their gifts serve a shared quest.

Allie is at Allie Jones Consulting
Derek is at Unconstrained
Full Show Notes on the Essential Dynamics Wiki

What is Essential Dynamics with Derek Hudson?

Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!

Derek: 00:08

Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson. I developed the Essential Dynamics framework to help us understand how as organizations we can do better work and and have it be better for the people involved. And the Essential Dynamics podcast is an opportunity to explore those ideas through deep conversations with interesting people. And I'm excited to have back on for a second time, Allie Jones.

Derek: 00:34

Allie, first of all, thanks for coming back.

Allie: 00:37

Yeah. I'm so excited to continue our conversation.

Derek: 00:41

And thanks for the conversation that we had last time. It was great for me. I learned a lot. I found a lot of connections between the work that you do and the work that I do. So I'm excited to continue.

Derek: 00:53

Maybe as we get started on this follow-up episode, if you could just take us through the different elements of Working Genius and what you're trying to do with them or what you do with them, and then we'll pick it up from there.

Allie: 01:06

All right, sure. So Working Genius is a framework. It was developed by Patrick Lencioni, and it's a 20% personality test, 80% productivity tool that helps individuals and teams be able to figure out how to make work more joyful, which we all could use. Right? So it's it's this idea that there's certain aspects of work that bring joy, energy, and fulfillment, and then other components of work that are more draining or frustrating to us.

Allie: 01:42

And while we have to do all sorts of work, work that is more fun and exciting and and still have to show up well with excellence in in the parts that might be more draining. We can really orient our work and our teams around those areas of our genius, that life giving, energizing parts of work, and try to support and delegate and or create other systems to support the areas of work that might be more frustrating. And then those middle areas where we may have that level of competency, we can do it. But if our entire workday was around those areas of competency, it would end up being slowly draining and and soul sucking. So real quick, just so we're kinda back on the same page, those six areas of genius.

Allie: 02:33

There's the genius of wonder, people who love seeing the potential, asking the big questions, the genius of invention, generating ideas and solutions, and brainstorming ways to move forward. We have our genius of discernment, those who really use their intuition and judgment to of vet ideas and determine the best way forward, our galvanizers who love to rally and inspire people into action, the genius of enablement, which is coming alongside helping and supporting the work getting done, And finally, the genius of tenacity, those who are great at pushing things to completion, driving results, crossing things off the to do list with excellence.

Derek: 03:23

I'm inspired by I want all of those. I wanna be a genius in all of those, all of the time. Tenacity makes me tired.

Allie: 03:33

Me too. Me too.

Derek: 03:34

If I lived in wonder all the time, I wouldn't get anything noticeable done, but it would be fun. So we're I need to not jump in these right now, but I am gonna dig into them a bit more on my own for sure. So one of the ways that you use these as an individual can understand where they get their energy from, what consumes energy and then emphasize or try to design their life or their job around the things that really work for them. Now let's turn around the other way. And I'm reminded of a job interview that I participated in a number of years ago, where I was the chief operating officer and I had our HR lead with me and we were interviewing a candidate.

Derek: 04:30

And about two sentences into the conversation, prompted by some innocent question, the candidate told us basically what worked for her. And this was a pretty much entry level job and it was a great organization that would be a great, you know, provide a great start to a career. But it was an entry level position. And as soon as this person said, well, is what I'm looking for and this is the way I work, you know, the interview was done, although we had to continue it for another half an hour or twenty minutes anyway to not embarrass anyone. So I'm the crusty employer here.

Derek: 05:15

I've got a position to fill. I got work to get done.

Allie: 05:18

Yeah.

Derek: 05:19

Do I have time for everybody's self actualization? I I maybe have an answer for that, but I'll let them I'll leave it there to say, okay. Now how do we put these two worlds together?

Allie: 05:31

That's right. Yeah. And and it's interesting because, yeah, what the bigger picture is employees are are increasingly coming to jobs wanting this sense of fulfillment and purpose, and especially younger generations. And this is nuanced. It's good, and it has some hard parts to it.

Allie: 05:56

Right? So it's a good thing to want to find work that's fulfilling and purposeful and that aligns with what you want. And that's a good thing for employers because when when it's a right fit, then the work gets done more productively. Right? And so that that is an important part, I think, of the hiring process is thinking through.

Allie: 06:22

We want someone who's a good fit for our workplace culture and this position and the skills required. But it sounds like this individual that you are interviewing might have not been a workplace culture fit in that there was a sense of rigidity around these are my demands coming into an into an interview. And yeah. So there's this other layer of humility in realizing that all work requires all six parts, and no person can completely avoid their areas of frustration. I have the I have a frustration around tenacity, so I struggle with keeping up with the the little details of stuff.

Allie: 07:10

And and now as a business owner, you know, tracking my budget and and balancing my getting my p and l, written written out every month and staying on top of that is hard for me. I hired a bookkeeper to help me with that, but I still need to have the discipline to do things that are not easy for me. And and so the humility to be able to lean into things that are hard is another essential part, and I'm sure I'm curious what what your answer would be through the lens of essential dynamics. But I think that as we are hiring and thinking about even who in my who in my business already, who in who on my team could be better utilizing their existing skills and their and their existing geniuses. So for example, let's say I hire someone at an entry level position and and really they're kind of in the execution part of it.

Allie: 08:14

I need a lot of enablement and a lot of tenacity from them. So I do want to make sure there's a fit there of them being detail oriented or able to come alongside and help a project get done and and be a team player. But if I were to give them the working genius assessment and they have the genius of invention, I might invite that junior person into a meeting where we're brainstorming our initiatives of how to solve for a problem because I wanna bring them into their genius for the benefit of our company, and I know that's going to be bringing them fulfillment and joy and have more buy in to their work. And maybe by bringing them into those types of meetings where they get to shine in their genius, they'll have that engagement piece that helps them with those less glamorous parts of their job. So that's my take on it.

Allie: 09:16

What do you think?

Derek: 09:16

That's a solid take. I like that. So Essential Dynamics, we talk about the quest. And in thinking about the quest, which is just humans coming together to do important hard things and it's a great foundation for a story and the stories that we'd like have all those elements in it. And so what are those elements?

Derek: 09:40

Well, there's a really important purpose. There's a bunch of people, underqualified, misfits maybe. Maybe they were called out of security and safety and then they're set on a journey. So there's the purpose, the path and the people. When we're talking about aligning up the interests of individuals with the organization, I go to purpose first.

Derek: 10:08

And if you care about the purpose of the organization, like if you really care, then that creates energy itself. And you're able to push through things because I really care about this. And that could be at a project level or it could be you care about the customer and the customer's experience in receiving the offering that your organization is making. But that's, in my mind, that's primary. And if you are working against you're working in an area where you've got the frustrating part of those aspects, you're not the genius, but there's a purpose, then you can fight through and you can do it.

Allie: 10:57

That's right.

Derek: 10:58

So that's one thing. And same organization and it was the economic development organization that the city of Edmonton owned. We I remember another interview where we asked someone, why do you want to work here? And it was for an accounts payable clerical position.

Derek: 11:22

And this was an experienced woman who'd done a lot of things in her life, but she said, I love what I love this city. I love what you're doing here. I want to be part of it. And this is something that I can do.

Allie: 11:34

Love that.

Derek: 11:35

And so we hired her. We didn't hire that other one. We hired her. And so there's that aspect to it. The other part that Essential Dynamics just puts right in front of us is for each of the idea of purpose and path and people, there is an inherent dynamic tension. And on the purpose side, it's that we actually don't just have one purpose.

Derek: 12:01

That we have competing purposes. I call it purpose X and purpose Y. And we're trying to do something but we also have to do this other thing and it's hard to do both. For example, it's hard to really deliver value to your customer at a price that they're thrilled to have and then pay your employees at a wage that they love to have. And that's hard.

Derek: 12:30

So there's two purposes you got to accomplish them both. The nice thing about that dynamic tension is that then demands creative solutions. Maybe you have to do something even better to be able to do those two things. So that's the purpose tension. The path tension is that there are things that drive our work forward and we call those drivers.

Derek: 12:53

And then there are things that hold our work back and those are constraints. And it might be a physical capacity, it might be shortage of materials, it might be some regulation or policy inside or outside the organization that makes it harder to do our stuff. But there's that tension and that's a lot of what leaders and consultants try to do is like, how do we get this machine to make that stuff faster?

Derek: 13:18

But the third tension is the people tension. And in my mind, it's always the same thing.

Derek: 13:25

And it's the tension between the individual and the needs of the individual and the group. And so the individual wants to be sort of in charge of, you know, their own experience. They want to, as we said before, you know, develop their own skills. They want to work in areas that provide them energy. They want to self actualize and, have sort of autonomy over the things that happen in their life.

Derek: 13:52

And every person should want that. On the other hand, we've a machine that's trying to make something here and we need people to play a role in that. And so we need some conformity and some cooperation.

Derek: 14:07

And, you know, the way I like to think about it is that I've been in organizations that have basically said this, it's like, we want our people to be creative and innovative. We want them to think outside the box. We want them to be self motivated. And we want them to keep all the rules and not ask for much money.

Allie: 14:28

Yeah.

Derek: 14:29

And so that's the tension. And so when I think about working genius, let's go to the leader's side. You're building an organization, you're hiring people, you're putting them into responsibilities. They're working together and I need people to do the things to create the value and to I need some degree of conformity and But I also recognize that when people get that return of energy, if they're aligned with the purpose, I don't have to supervise them as carefully. I don't have to worry about motivating them.

Derek: 15:07

So how can Working Genius or any other tools you know about help us get that balance between the individual and the group?

Allie: 15:15

Yeah. So I feel like Working Genius when implemented in a way that I see it as working could really help bring the two sides together. Because it starts out as, you know, you take this test, you get your individual results. But the way that Patrick Lencioni built it was really for teams. And so then you bring in a consultant or you put all everyone's on you know, on a up on a board, and we have a map of everyone's geniuses and everyone's frustrations.

Allie: 15:56

And a couple things just to kind of tease out to see how this can play out with that tension you're naming with between the individual and the team. The the leader has a bigger impact on the whole team. So if your areas of genius, your meetings that you're leading and the initiatives and the way you think about approaching work, you're naturally gonna see it through the lens and gravitate towards your geniuses, and that's what's going to be valued more highly than any other person on the team. So, again, that self awareness and that curiosity of how is my geniuses showing up and how I'm leading and what are the strengths of that that that help this succeed. But then where might there be some blind spots?

Allie: 16:52

For example, a lot of visionary leaders tend to have a genius around invention. And so they're gonna be the the kinda person that's like, oh, what if we did it this way? And that's great. That what that's probably what led you to starting your business or getting to your position of leadership to begin with. But then in a meeting where we're talking about an event that's happening in two weeks, and you're coming at, oh, what if we did this?

Allie: 17:20

And it's a new idea when we're trying to finalize the guest list and get the run a show figured out. That genius is not important. So the the what's the word? I think the phrase is the what of your genius is just as important as the when of your genius.

Derek: 17:42

Okay.

Allie: 17:43

And so for you as a leader, being able to regulate and see what does the work require. We're we're okay. We're trying to land the plane on this project here. So I'm gonna pull back on my genius of ideation because my team is trying to implement this. And so that's kinda one piece I wanted to name.

Allie: 18:09

And then when you're thinking about, again, that map and if you have a team of, you know, six or seven people putting everyone's geniuses and frustrations all out on where does this play out of, oh, we've got a lot of people in tenacity that around a a genius, and then maybe a lot of frustration around wonder and invention. We don't wanna sit around and we wanna get stuff done. We don't wanna sit and have our head in the clouds. So we're really good. It's figuring out as a team where are our gaps and where are our strengths.

Allie: 18:53

And then oftentimes within a team, there might be an outlier. There's a person in a role that is requiring a certain types of geniuses, and maybe that's their area of competence, but their geniuses are actually in different places. Or a lot of the team has similar geniuses, and then one team member is kinda, like, out in a completely different area. And so they may be coming to meetings and having a differing opinion or keeping themselves quiet, but they seem like they're a little disengaged. And so that map can really bring out a helpful eye opening conversation about, oh, that is why Matt keeps asking these questions.

Allie: 19:41

He's got the genius of wonder. One of the gifts of this framework is compassion and self kindness. We we can let go of our own judgment of, like, gosh, why is he such a jerk? He's always asking these questions and, like, getting in the way of us trying to just get stuff done. But when I see his genius when I see his behaviors through the lens of his genius, I see, oh, that's this is why.

Allie: 20:08

And then it it might help bring that sense of team purpose that you were you were talking about. And I was remember I was thinking was you were talking about how do we bring individuals who want their autonomy and their own self actualization to a team dynamic? And what I thought about was my I have twin two year olds, and how when they wanna go off and do their own thing, what I'll do is I'll say, oh, Hayden, I need your help. I need you to help me pick up the the food from the table and clean up. And he wants that so bad.

Allie: 20:47

He loves being helpful. And I think that piece of us never really goes away. Like, we wanna be a part of something bigger. We wanna go on a quest, but we don't wanna go alone. And so by bringing in their genius and saying, we need your help in your areas of genius here.

Allie: 21:05

And I think that's such an empowering thing we can do as leaders to bring the individual fulfillment and the team needs together.

Derek: 21:13

Okay, that's fantastic. I wanna go back. So I got two points. One is the leader's disproportionate influence and then the other is mapping the team. So the first one, like I told you, was trained as an accountant.

Derek: 21:28

I've been a CFO. I've been a chief operating officer who did all the CFO stuff. And I had to double down on that when I had a boss who was all about wonder and galvanizing. I'm just thinking of my one boss and some of my listeners know who I'm talking about. Always had a great idea.

Derek: 21:56

Then, but there's no shortage. So there'd be another one the next week and another one the In next fact, I have a client, it's a different person, and he felt like he couldn't have any ideas because whenever he had an idea, then the whole team kind of piled on it and tried to make it happen because they wanna impress the boss and he needed that discerner.

Allie: 22:15

Yes.

Allie: 22:16

He needed a process where the boss can be free to have ideas, but that doesn't mean we're doing it. And you need to filter through. So I found myself playing different, playing to different strengths or different roles based on what was needed in the room and particularly how to temper my boss. I'm not as much on enablement and tenacity except for when I'm the CFO, then I got to do those things and I do them and I get my energy from the overall progress of the company. But then this idea of mapping the team, if we go to this idea of the epic fantasy and the misfit team that gets put together, Guardians of the Galaxy or the Fellowship of the Ring or whatever, one of the cool things that always happens in that is there are these unique quirky abilities that somebody has contribute to the overall team.

Derek: 23:12

So even for people who don't take the time to dig into the specifics of working genius, in a group, we're always looking for the particular interests and skills that people can bring to bear for two reasons. One is that'll engage them. And second, you always get a better product.

Allie: 23:34

That's right.

Derek: 23:37

So I think we should kind of pull it together now. The time goes by so fast. Yes. Allie, thanks very much. Thanks for walking us through.

Derek: 23:48

Is there any like final thing you wanna say to our audience about all the stuff that you have to offer here?

Allie: 23:57

No. I I just so enjoyed our conversation. And and if if you wanna learn more about working genius, again, it's Patrick Lencioni. He's got his own stuff, and and feel free to deep dive on his podcast and book and and all of that. But if you want someone who's a certified guide to either help you unpack that in your own career or or in a team dynamic to facilitate a conversation about that, I'd love to start a conversation with you.

Allie: 24:27

So you can head to alliejonesconsulting.com and and check me out. And let's let's chat a little bit more about what your working geniuses are and how we can bring that into the world more.

Derek: 24:39

Ali, thanks very much. I'm Derek Hudson and you can find me at Get Unconstrained. And would very much like to hear what people think about this topic and all the things we talk about on Essential Dynamics. I'd like to thank Bryn Griffiths for his work. And I'm just really excited.

Derek: 24:59

I think what kind of finishing off here is this idea when we're working together with other people of being able to really benefit from the geniuses that the people around us have. And while we're thinking about that, let's think about consider your quest.