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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Chris Bruno
Hey guys, welcome back to the Restorative Man podcast by Restoration Project. My name is Chris Bruno. I'm one of the hosts. And today we have a very special guest. I have a very special guest with us today. This is a person that I have known and loved for 30 plus years. And we have lived life together. You guys, I welcome to the podcast, my wife, Bruno. Beth.
Beth Bruno
Hey, good to see you here.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, it is good to be here. This has been going on for a while and the podcast has and just having you on has been something that we have wanted to do for quite a while. So just glad that you're here. So today guys, we are diving into some of the conversations that we've been having for decades now around raising our own kids, both our son and our two daughters and some of the rites of passage processes that we put in place when I first started.
doing some of this with Man Maker Project. Beth, you've written around the mother daughter journey. And so we're going to unpack some of that today. But first, let's start with those kids that we were raising. They don't live here anymore.
Beth Bruno
know, it's, you know, as I consider like the origin story of what we're going to talk about today, and where those girls are in particular on opposite sides of the country, literally California and Virginia, and the lives that they're living. You know, I don't know that we imagined that for them 10 years ago, but so fun to see, like where they are, and so surreal to be talking about.
them now in that reality.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. So our oldest daughter is at this moment, she is 22. So you had just mentioned a decade ago, 10 years ago, she was 12. Our youngest daughter is 19. And so 10 years ago, she would have been nine. So we were right in the thick of things 10 years ago, trying to figure out how to raise these little girls into women.
Beth Bruno
Yeah. And you know, it's fun Restoration Project celebrating kind of 15 years this year and so much of what exists in the Restoration Project space for dads in particular grew up alongside of our own children because we were creating the things that we knew they needed. And so it feels like a marker for our family every time we mark something for Restoration Project.
Chris Bruno
Yes, it is a marker. there are kids lives and restoration projects life are very intertwined. All of our kids have served in various places of volunteering. They've all been on trips with us and all that. So it's so fun to have you here in this space. And one of the things that is really important to note is that as the dad, I have been able to involve the kids.
in the Restoration Project experiences like I just mentioned, you have been part of the journey since the very beginning and that is not well known. People haven't known how much you have invested, sacrificed, been involved in, participated in, shaped, molded, like so many things in the Restoration Project space. So I am so glad.
to get your voice in at least the podcast. It's not the only voice place where you have a voice. We're going to talk about that too, but I'm glad that you're here.
Beth Bruno
Yeah, fun to be in this space.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Okay. So with that, I want to jump right in. We're talking about the father daughter experiences that we have inside of restoration project, which are called the fierce and lovely experiences. So these are base camp, the fierce and lovely base camp. These are fierce and lovely other kind of expeditions trips that we have backpacking trips and such track like all of that.
We call it fierce and lovely, Beth, because of you. And so want to invite you, give us a little bit, you mentioned the origin story, like give us some background of what we did, what you've done with our daughters, the book that you wrote around these things. like fill us in for people who haven't known your participation.
Beth Bruno
Well, our kids, we are oldest is a boy. And so when he started to enter into puberty and like us considering how are we transitioning him and Man Maker came out of that season, our two younger kids, girls, were watching. They were watching. They were anticipating their own journey, their own experience that would match.
what their older brother was receiving with you. And so some of the beginnings, you know, of like, how are boys and girls different? How's the role of mother and father different for boys and girls? And all of that started when our girls were quite young because we knew we would have to create something for them. And we knew that because we were studying, researching, reading kind of what's out there already.
And I even tried some of the things that were out there. And I don't know if you remember my first attempt with Ella.
Chris Bruno
I do remember, yes.
Beth Bruno
I was following a book about raising girls and doing an activity that was in that book and kind of using an illustration of China, fine China, to talk about kind of the character of a girl. And I took her to a tea room and it flopped. I mean, the girl who had not worn a dress since she was two years old, the girl who
would prefer to be climbing and hiking the girl who hated tea, the girl who, just all the things for her to be in an environment like that. I completely missed her heart. And I think that experience is what began kind of a personal exploration of not only how do I find the unique heart of our kids, but what actually better encompasses the heart of the feminine.
as it reflects who God is versus some of these archetypes that were being offered to us in some of the books that existed at the time. So that paired with Man Maker and what you were doing with our son is what kind of where a voice becoming was birthed from. And that was my book, A Voice Becoming, a year long journey into passionate, purposed living. And it was the year of becoming that we designed.
We really co-designed it to do with our girls, but I led it. It was the rite of passage that I led each of our daughters through. And in a similar way that you did with Man Maker and having very different kind of characteristics that you were calling young men to, we were considering what does that look like for young women and writing about that.
in not a prescriptive way, but just an inspiring way, wanting to invite women to consider, like, do we land in those same places or not? And if not, what would that look like? What kind of scaffolding would I want to build for my daughter? But kind of creating a framework for how to do that for moms. So that was a year of becoming. We did that when each of our girls turned 12. And at that point in the Restoration Project world,
all of the fathering spaces were around sons. And so we began to talk about what about the daughters and our daughters began to ask what about us? And the book had not, my book had not come out yet. And so I just remember sitting around with you and some key RP guys, Jesse was there at the time trying to brainstorm, like how do we not just replicate
my book in a fathering space, but what would encompass the heart of what we're calling young women too. And we were talking through all the different aspects of what I was writing about and came to these two words that felt like this is it. This is kind of the summary of what we really are inviting young women to be. And that those words were fierce.
and lovely.
Chris Bruno
And I want to go back to something you said a moment ago and put it in maybe a little bit different language. One of the things that we noticed both you and I, as we were working on these rites of passage processes for our son and then for our daughters, was that so much of what existed at the time was very prescriptive. And it was like, this is what a woman is. This is what a man is. And so conform to these archetypes, these understandings.
And one of the things, as you just described with our daughter in the tea room was like, that wasn't who she was. And our posture all along really began to be far more around the exploratory. Like we want to explore who she is and explore who he is versus prescribe who she is and tell her. And that posture shift was so freeing for us with our daughters. Like, let us discover who you are.
and like breathe life and support and come alongside of who you are versus tell you who you should be. And yet there are these two territories, these concepts that you just named, fierce and lovely, that are kind of two territories that give a little bit of that scaffolding to say like, okay, what of you is in this area and what of you is in this area? And let's explore those territories together. And I love that. I love that.
Beth Bruno
No.
Yeah, I mean, we were trying to crystallize. This sounds ridiculous to say, but who is God? And therefore, how does all of that show up in our daughters, in our girls? And, you know, how do girls reflect God to the world? They were created in His image. And so what of that image are they?
Chris Bruno
Ha ha.
Beth Bruno
reflecting to the world. And that was a big task. And so, you know, to summarize it even in just two words was a big thing. But the way we talk about fears is that it's this idea of joining God to come against evil and bring like an inner core strength to the world. And that was intentional.
Again, I think about our daughter Ella. I had this image of her in sixth grade at a swim meet when we're up in the stands and the group for the next heat is kind of milling around the side of the pool and at the wall is some sort of pull-up bar. And so it's Ella and like five boys in this heat. And we watch her go over to the pull-up bar and pull herself up, know, boom.
gets down the next boy will not be, you know.
Chris Bruno
All of sudden, it's competition. All of a sudden, we've got...
Beth Bruno
Well, she's just doing it out of fun. All of a sudden we have a full on competition going on. Has nothing to do with the swim heat. And so boy after boy after boy gets on and does these pull ups. And I mean, these are sixth grade boys. So like no muscles really yet. And it's one, two, three pull ups. And know, Ella lets them all go and comes back and gets on the bar and does like 10 in a row.
And you can just see, we could see from the stands, like all the boys just deflate. Ella looking around like, you know, and just not getting it at all. But I think that image for me of wanting to somehow differentiate physical strength, competition, the ability, even today at age 22, wants, she wants it to be clear to the masculine world. Like I am strong. I can carry that.
please don't carry that for me, I can do it. She can still outbench and out pull up most young men her age. I wanted to call out some other version of strength that I also believe is in her and is actually what is most imaging of God that we see throughout scripture. And so how to put like a very strong word like fierce to that internal core.
That was the heart of choosing that word.
Chris Bruno
Yes. I remember that day as well. And I felt for those boys. was like, ⁓ those boys are, they wanted to not be undone, but they were. also about what you said is so easily when it comes to that idea of strength, that it is associated with besting someone versus bringing something from an inner core and in that whole idea also of joining God.
Beth Bruno
Uh-huh.
Chris Bruno
Like he is strong and his strength is on behalf of the other and it is bringing something really powerful to the world that doesn't decimate, doesn't destroy. It's bringing in that inner core of strength.
Beth Bruno
And we can find far more examples in scripture of women who are bringing that kind of strength. And don't get me wrong, we also have examples of women bringing physical brawn in scripture, but so much more of an inner strength that I could easily say, her, her, her to our girls. And that idea of like, this reflects who God is. And so join him and come against what
what is not just, what is not holy, what is not right in the world. So young girls at like base camp, when we start with girls at age 10, they get it. They so get it. It doesn't take much to explain to them what that looks like in their lives. And so to help them put words to that, examples of their own situation, it's just so fun. And dads love being able to do that too.
you know, to call that out in what they've seen of their own daughters exhibiting that. The other word love, sorry, were you about to say something?
Chris Bruno
was gonna say, so unpack lovely for us. Like, it in gas space.
Beth Bruno
So lovely. know, some of the, some of the things I was writing about in a voice becoming is this idea of like women really do young women, like women, the feminine, the aspect of God that, that brings feminine glory to the world is life bearing. Like we alone, our bodies alone actually bear life. And that idea of creating life, creating beauty.
So how do we capture that and not make it feel domesticated? You know, that it belongs at home or it belongs in motherhood or it belongs in these boxy ways, prescriptive ways. How do we really encompass this idea of joining God to bring forth life and beauty to the world? In all places, in all ways. And I think at the time when I was
Chris Bruno
in all places.
Beth Bruno
creating this first rites of passage year with Ella, Malala had just released her book, I Am Malala, and she was going on tour. And that year Ella and I saw her live in Denver and we also watched a documentary, I forget what that was called. And Malala was such a great example for young women in that time period of exhibiting both fierce and lovely.
Here she is, a young Pakistani girl whose father was an advocate for girls education. And so they defied all norms. When the Taliban came in and began to just suppress girls education, they defied it. And he continued to run a girls school. And she was a BBC radio host and broadcast for years with the Taliban gaining power in the Pakistan.
and continuing to use her voice to advocate for other young women while she ended up being shot because of it and survived. But it was such a great picture of using her voice to create a space that would bring, that would yield life and beauty and knowledge, you know, the softer things. She didn't take up a gun in resistance. She used her actual
words in resistance. And it was a great picture of that idea of lovely, joining God to create life and beauty for the world. The other thing we think about with girls, and I love being able to share this now at base camp with the dads and daughters when I talk about lovely, is that I think girls, women, we've had this image of God as male, as father.
masculine, like that is ubiquitous. It's far easier to then associate fierce with that aspect of God. It's a lot harder to locate ourselves as a female in a female body with a masculine fatherly God. so then to find like, how does lovely actually, how is God lovely? How do we image that when it's harder to find that?
in him. And so I share, I love being able to do this now, sharing Exodus 34 six, where we are in the Sinai and the people of Israel are waiting at the bottom of the mountain. Moses has gone up to encounter the presence of God. And they're still in this state as a nation of like, who actually is Yahweh? Yahweh God?
gave Moses the name Yahweh. Like we're talking early time in history at this point of them understanding who this God is. Moses goes up, he's at the top of the mountain and basically says, who am I supposed to tell them you are? And the very first description God gives is, I am Rahmana, which in Aramaic is, I am a womb-like.
We translate that to mean compassionate or merciful. And it's also the Hebrew word for womb, which is this physical picture of the thing which mercifully, compassionately bears and protects and gives life. And that is God's first description of who God is, who Moses can tell these people.
God is, I am a compassionate womb like God. Well, now that is a picture of lovely. That is something who in the room, dads and daughters has a womb. And that is a way that, that the, that women can locate themselves in who God is, where we can image him clearly because he too is like us.
And I love helping girls understand that, that being lovely is being like God in those ways. You bring life, you bear life, you are compassionate and merciful, not to the exclusion of boys, but it's such a good picture for girls in a very masculinized understanding of their God.
Chris Bruno
Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. To all of that. And you just said you love helping the girls understand that I love helping the girls understand that. But then also, Beth, helping the dads understand that and helping fathers have a deeper sense of how is my daughter reflecting the glory and the image of God in this world in her own unique ways that is different from me as a man.
different from me in my masculine body and perspective and all of that. And back to the whole idea of rites of passage that you and I have, you know, crafted and created for our son and then our daughters. And then that's, you know, become manmaker and voice becoming. It is so important for as our boys and girls become men and women, that they have some kind of trajectory, some kind of vision, some kind of path, some kind of
Like, ⁓ these are ways for me to discover how I reflect and embody the goodness of God in the world as I become that woman, as I become that man. so all of that you've brought into the Restoration Project space for our daughters and particularly for us and our family, so grateful. And you talk to our girls now who are young women and they...
they have kind of grown up in that atmospheric conditions, understanding those kinds of things. It's so lovely to see them embody that now today.
Beth Bruno
Yeah. You know, parallel to creating these conversations for dads and daughters in restoration project space, I was trying to steward well my book and create spaces, similar spaces for moms and did a podcast for many years called the fierce and lovely podcast, which is still out there and interviewed women and had conversations about all sorts of different topics around this idea of
their own fierce and lovely being brought forth to the world. But then the last year, it was our daughters and me. And we kind of batted around these different conversations that they were facing, that young teens were facing. And out of that then created 12, 13, maybe 19 conversations around tough topics for moms and girls to have. And again, like I'm a woman, I'm a mom. That was my natural audience in space.
I actually never considered dads utilizing any of that until this past summer. And there was a dad at a base camp, daughters of fearsome, lovely base camp who said he had listened to every single one of my podcasts. I had my book on his nightstand and was going through those conversations with his daughter. And I just realized like what you said earlier, dads are looking for frameworks too. And the ones who are super.
Chris Bruno
Yes.
Beth Bruno
intentional and trying to be proactive with their girls in all of these ways and spaces. And honestly, it doesn't matter, does it? If it's written for a woman or a mom or a dad or not, girls are girls. And as parents, we're just grappling with how to help them become the young women that God designed them to be. And so I love knowing that a lot of the different content that we
I'm sure we'll link to in the show notes is helpful for dads.
Chris Bruno
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So talk a little bit, Beth, about, you know, and I'm happy to pipe into the father being the one to do kind of give guidance to the rites of passage for sons becoming men. And then the mother being the one to give primary leadership and guidance for girls becoming women in that rites of passage process.
But then how like you as the mom participated with our son's rites of passage and how I as the father participated with you in our daughter's rites of passage. kind of give us some words around that.
Beth Bruno
Again, you and I are not about prescription. None of this is intended to be prescriptive. It's more a posture that we talk about and that is a way of being. You know, I wanted, we're inviting our daughters into a way of being feminine. And what I was really interested in is where do we see that way of being throughout time and throughout culture?
that if we're really going to say this is how we image God, then that should be something that translates history and it translates ethnicity and it translates language. Where are we seeing themes of the feminine? And therefore, I wanted to invite the girls into a global sisterhood. And that meant giving them templates in some ways, like
constructs frame and we talk about scaffolding. Like this is the scaffolding of womanhood that if you existed 500 years ago in Kenya, you might also find to be true. Who best to lead through that space than a woman who has encountered and created her own scaffolding. And so for that reason, I
think moms lead girls into becoming women and inviting them to join a global sisterhood, similar to you with young men. But fathers are incredibly vital to that scaffolding and your voice in their lives, your presence, your intentionality, specifically engaging them around these conversations that I've already
led all felt essential. And you're continuing to step in with them even as young women, even taking them post college on an experience with just you to help launch them into the world. So none of that is to the exclusion of the other parents. It's a primary role that we believe is important to take, but it's still a partnership.
that we think is important to have.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, I love that word partnership and it is coming alongside of you as you are in the driver's seat for our girls and you're coming alongside of me as I'm in the driver's seat for our son and developing a sense of like, you know, we're going to do this together. And that's, and that is what the base camp, Fierce and Lovely Base Camp and Fierce and Lovely Experiences and all the fathering daughters.
space is in Restoration Project is, dad, you are vital and super important to have that level of intentionality and attention and thoughtfulness and vision and all of that stuff that is coming alongside of the girls becoming. And yet you, as a man, have never walked that journey from girlhood to womanhood. And so you need to be involving and ⁓ not just involving, but like...
submitting to the leadership of the mother who was guiding that journey into the global sisterhood. Beth, tell us a little bit about, so you are part of the Fierce and Lovely Basecamp team. You have given leadership to that and tell us a little bit about, tell dads what they can expect at Basecamp.
Beth Bruno
Basecamp for girls is all about fierce and lovely. And they will have that on their fists. They will have artwork around that. will talk a lot about embodying both of those the way a bird has two wings and needs to be able to have both to fly. And so the wing symbol and metaphor will be used throughout. They will hear me talk about God being a womb like God.
and they will have a blast. Dads will get to experience their girls doing all sorts of fierce and lovely things. I think the highlight of the weekend, the last few years has been the number of craw dads girls are pulling out of the pond. And so it's such a beautiful time for dads to have just with their daughters and for daughters to have their dad's eyes on them.
A whole weekend. I love it.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, yeah. Well, clearly, as you have been part of the shaping of this father daughter experience inside of Restoration Project, there's so much more that you bring to the world. And just letting us borrow that language, letting us borrow your brilliance in this space has been so formative for who we can be as dads for our daughters. And back to the Fierce and Lovely podcast for moms. And I say for moms, but I want to reiterate, like,
That may be the primary audience and yet it is not the only audience that dads, you should be listening to the Fierce and Lovely podcast too. You should be reading a voice becoming as well so that you have a greater sense of how to, how to come alongside and be that support for your daughter becoming a woman. Beth, thank you for being here today. So good to talk to you today. We are going to do another podcast with you about mothering sons and what that journey has been like.
for you in that space as well. So you all stay tuned and we'll be back next week with another podcast with Beth.
Beth Bruno
Thanks for having me here. Yes.