OurCalling - Our podcast about homelessness

While serving those experiencing homelessness, we will serve many individuals who struggle with addiction. Today, Wayne will be interviewing his long-time friend, Pastor John Elmore. What can you say to an addict to encourage them to seek help and recovery?
At the time of recording, John Elmore was a teaching pastor at Watermark Church (http://www.watermark.org) in Dallas, TX. Recently, he and his family have moved to Waco, where he is joining the staff of Harris Creek Church (https://www.harriscreek.org/).

Follow Wayne Walker https://www.instagram.com/wayne_ourcalling/
Follow John Elmore https://www.instagram.com/john_a_elmore/

Purchase John's book:  https://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Starts-Today-Overcoming-Addictions/dp/1540900622/ref=monarch_sidesheet

1. Introduction to the Podcast and Discussion Topic (00:01 - 01:06)
Wayne introduces the podcast's theme on addiction and the Christian approach to supporting addicts, with guest John Elmore.

2. Mission and Vision of "Our Calling" (00:25 - 00:43)
John inquires about the non-profit, Wayne explains their commitment to serving the homeless with dignity and integrity.

3. John's Personal Journey with Addiction (01:19 - 02:30)
John recounts his severe alcoholism, functional drug use, and a pivotal suicidal moment leading to his spiritual rebirth and recovery through faith.

4. The Impact of Faith on Recovery (02:30 - 03:51)
John discusses his role in various ministries and the life-changing power of Jesus Christ, which he now preaches.

5. Dynamics of Addiction and Recovery (04:58 - 07:08)
John correlates the 12-step program with Jesus' teachings, emphasizing the evangelical aspect of spreading the message and supporting others.

6. Realities of Addiction from Street Outreach (08:11 - 11:17)
Wayne shares firsthand experiences with addicts on the streets, describing encounters that underscore the necessity of faith-based interventions.

7. Community and Consistency in Support (16:25 - 17:58)
The importance of consistent, daily community support and interaction to guard against the deceitfulness of sin is discussed.

8. Structuring Effective Recovery Environments (20:22 - 22:33)
The conversation turns to the importance of creating supportive environments that facilitate recovery through structured programs and community involvement.

9. Logistical and Emotional Challenges in Recovery Efforts (22:48 - 25:16)
Wayne outlines the operational and emotional challenges involved in running recovery programs, including the common occurrences of relapse.

10. Prioritizing Christ in the Path to Recovery (26:15 - 43:00)
The discussion concludes with an emphasis on the essential role of establishing and maintaining a foundational relationship with Jesus Christ for true recovery.

Both Wayne and John conclude by reaffirming the necessity of turning to Jesus both for initial recovery and for sustaining change, advocating for an approach that combines practical help with spiritual depth.

★ Support this podcast ★

Creators & Guests

Host
Wayne Walker
CEO and Pastor Wayne Walker serves as the CEO and Pastor to the homeless at OurCalling. In 2001, Wayne, along with his wife Carolyn, started serving the homeless community in Dallas. They founded OurCalling in 2009. During his youth, Wayne’s family actively pursued the scriptural commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself” by modeling the life of Jesus to scores of foster children whose own origins represented generations of human brokenness, dysfunction, sexual exploitation, and abuse. Early exposure to these destructive forces set him on a path to recognize the long-term effects of trauma, which often lead to homelessness. While completing his Master’s Degree in Cross-Cultural Ministry from Dallas Theological Seminary, Wayne befriended and ministered to men and women in the homeless community. During that time he began to establish personal, discipleship-oriented relationships with homeless individuals, many in the same urban setting where he and his family continue to work today.
Editor
Orange and Teal Productions
caroline@orangeandteal.org
Designer
Sarah Katherine

What is OurCalling - Our podcast about homelessness?

A Podcast by OurCalling—the goal is to be a learner. What can we learn about serving those experiencing homelessness? Even though we have years of experience, can we step back, take a fresh look, and rethink everything we know? OurCalling is a Christian nonprofit (501 c3) serving the homeless community throughout Dallas County in Texas. Our team helps people get to know Jesus and get off the streets every day. Last year, we helped individuals exit homelessness over 1,300 times. We have a facility in downtown Dallas, and our street outreach teams visit over 4,000 locations throughout the county. We serve about 10,000 individuals experiencing homelessness each year. We partner with the most amazing organizations and recognize that we are stronger when we work together.

Wayne:

Welcome to our podcast, a podcast by Our Calling. I'm pastor Wayne here, and today, we're talking about addiction. We're talking about how to love addicts, how to what we should say, what we shouldn't say as we serve those with addiction, and I've invited a good friend of mine who's got lots of experience as we dive into how to love our addicted neighbors well.

John:

Who is our calling? What does our calling do to help the homeless? The nonprofit.

Wayne:

We care with dignity. Our calling Can't help but think about the definition of Christian. We connect with intentionality. Called our calling To our calling

John:

We build community with integrity. Calling our calling

Wayne:

This is our calling and our podcast, a word on the streets about homelessness. Today, I'm here with my friend John Elmore. John, I've known you since when?

John:

Man, I think it was 2008. That's when I moved down here for seminary.

Wayne:

Okay. So we met on the campus at DTS.

John:

Yeah. Either there or at the bridge.

Wayne:

Yeah. Probably. One of those places. And the reason why I wanna talk to you today is because of your testimony and your history with addiction and how that impacts the people that we serve here

John:

at our

Wayne:

calling Yep. How those that serve the homeless community are walking up and having conversations with people that are addicts. But real quick, John, just tell us a little bit about who you are and what the Lord's done in your life. Yeah.

John:

So I'm a recovered, recovering, people use different language, alcoholic, drug user. Probably had over 12 years of alcoholism. It was functional for for an extent, but then had 2 doctors tell me that I was dying of alcoholism because of the really just like house of cards. Everything I had built my life on, it became dysfunctional. Put a loaded gun to my head, was living on a couch, and there was a family intervention.

John:

I didn't believe in God. I was like a deist. Thought God existed, but didn't have anything to do with me. But hit step 3 in AA, surrender your life and will to your higher power. People praying to the doorknob, the Coke machine.

John:

I knew from my childhood, Jesus saves. And so in desperation, got on my knees, asked this God that I rejected for all my life at the age of 30. I've squandered everything you've given me, but whatever I have left, it's yours. You get everything. My time, my money, my mind, my body, it's all yours, and I was born again.

John:

Spirit came into me. All of life snapped into focus. It was like everything is just to know him, make him known, And I knew for the rest of my life, I was gonna spend my days telling people that Jesus is real. You're never too far gone, and he can change everything. That what is will not always be if you give it to Jesus.

John:

I've seen that over the course of time. So I've led in recovery ministry, homeless ministry, prison ministry. I'm now teaching pastor at Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas, and, it's a joy to be able to preach Christ in the scriptures and pastor others and serve with incredible men like you.

Wayne:

Man, how fun to listen to the story of what the Lord's done in your life. I mean, I meet so many addicts that that's not the story. Mhmm. Right? They're continuing to hit that, battle, whatever it is.

John:

Yeah.

Wayne:

Right? Heroin, meth, crack, alcohol, sex, whatever it is. Yep. And they continue to hit that day after day after day, and then something happens, that one interaction. I don't know why.

Wayne:

It just makes me think of Mark chapter 5. Right? You got the guys living in a place, people aren't supposed to live, he's in the tombs, he's he's he's screaming all day and night, running around naked, and hurting himself, right? Yes. And it seems it says that everybody tried everything they could do, even it said that he would break the chains, and what we read in the story is only that interaction with Jesus Amen.

Wayne:

Was able to do anything.

John:

Yeah. And then the incredible thing, all throughout Jesus' ministry, he says, follow me. Leave your nuts. Follow me. Leave your tax collector booth.

John:

Follow me. Follow me. Follow me. This man actually says let me follow you. Let me go with you.

John:

Jesus says no, which is so cold. Like what? What are you doing? And, you know, the apostles were probably so relieved. Like, oh, good.

John:

Crazy naked guy is not coming with us. But he says, go back to where you're from and tell everyone everything God, which was a statement of deity, has done for you, and he did. It says all the people were amazed. And so, that's like everyone's right? Everyone has sin.

John:

Not everyone has a savior so that we would would tell others, hey. Jesus has changed me, and just this ripple effect as the kingdom breaks forth.

Wayne:

So you referenced the 12 steps earlier, so that would be 12 step 12.

John:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Carry the message to others.

John:

Yeah. Yeah. Go and make disciples. Jesus you know, all truth is Jesus' truth. So, yeah, the the AA 12th step, I would say, was Jesus' great commission, and we're just borrowing it.

John:

Change the language a little.

Wayne:

Go find the next guy.

John:

Totally. You gotta in order to

Wayne:

keep it, you gotta give it away. So in this space, when we serve those that are homeless, we work with a lot of addicts. Yeah. And for someone who's not an addict, they have no clue what to do. They're like, just stop drinking.

John:

Right.

Wayne:

Like, why won't you stop? Why won't you just go? Is there something someone could have said to you in that moment when you were an addict? Is you said there was an intervention. Is there is there some words, a phrase?

Wayne:

Is there is there something someone could have done to push you to that point to say, alright. I'm done. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

John:

Yeah. It's a really good question. It's a really fair question, and it's one that probably all of us are wrestling with as you interact with an addict. Like, alright. What what do I need to say?

John:

Like, clearly, they have a problem. They know they have a problem, so I could just present something, and this could all this doesn't have to be like this. And yet, we're told there's a spiritual reality that we can't see that says that unbelievers are slaves to sin and Satan. And so I would say that the answer, the antidote, because it's not just stop, it's the gospel. Like, Jesus is the only way that anyone is ever going to get out of the predicament they're in, whether addict or not, because everyone has sin.

John:

And so a lot of times, whether you're dealing with a porn addict or a meth addict or a alcohol addict, we do wanna feel like, just stop. Like, stop. If you just stop, everything would be fine. In reality, like, if you're, if you're a food addict, and someone said, just stop, you wouldn't actually get healthy, you would die. Like, you would starve to death.

John:

If you're a food addict, and the answer was just stop eating food, you would die. The the answer is not stop, the answer is turn, the answer is replace. You've gotta have a greater affection that displaces your lesser affection. Tim Keller writes beautifully about going to functional saviors, and so we all want peace. Like, that's the ache and longing of the human heart, is to just be have peace.

John:

Now we can find it in various ways, in a pill, in a needle, in a in a bottle. Those are functional saviors, but they are fleeting, poisonous, and life taking. And so as you point someone to Jesus, who's going to be life giving, not life taking, lasting instead of fleeting, and give you that abundant life instead of this poisonous life. So, yeah, you you're gonna wanna say stop when you see that person barreling headlong into death. And and in a sense, that's right.

John:

That's Proverbs 24, 11, and 12 where it says, if you see someone staggering toward the slaughter, don't say you didn't know. Hold them back. But the means by which we hold them back and are and are redirecting them really matters. Stop is, well, the biblical language is repent. And everyone hears that, and they think, yeah.

John:

That means stop. That's just a like a Greek word for stop. Right? And it's like, no. It actually means a a change of mind, a metanoia.

John:

It's a it's a turning. It just need a better savior.

Wayne:

I'd a few months ago, I was out with one of our street outreach teams. I don't get to go out as often as I used to and want to. And we were at an area where guys a bunch of guys are just using Fentanyl. Right? It's heroin in Dallas, it's actually easier and cheaper to get Fentanyl.

Wayne:

There's not that much heroin on the streets anymore, and so guys are just using all day long All day long, they're panhandling and using all day long, and they've got infections all up and down their body, and they're they're dying. They're killing themselves one day at a time. Yeah. And it's it's so hard to not wanna run up and tackle one of those guys and just look them in their face, grab them by their shirt, and say, stop. Stop.

Wayne:

But what I hear you're telling me is the words that can come out of my mouth are not gonna be as impactful or even make them big of a difference compared to what the Lord needs to do in their life.

John:

So, it brings tears to my eyes because this ministry that you have created is is different. It's not a stop ministry. It's a, it's a search and rescue ministry. You don't say stop. You say, come with me.

John:

It's an open invitation. You can get in the car right now. We have showers and clothes and meals and services where you can get off of whatever you're on, and this life can completely change today, and it's not stopped. It's come, which is what it was, like, all throughout the gospels. Come and see.

John:

Just come with me. And so, a stop mentality is, like, you're doing wrong, you shouldn't, and get your life together. Get a job. And here, uniquely, I think, and I'm certain there are others, so I'm not trying to throw any but but our calling has said, come with me, and that's different. My brother, was drinking with homeless guys.

John:

It was a Wednesday morning, 10 AM in Austin, Texas. I was on Congress Avenue, suicidal, manic, dysfunctional alcoholism at this point in time, stopped going to my job. I was on a shot clock. And I was it was 10 AM, and I was like, I don't wanna drink alone today. So I grabbed these 2 homeless guys.

John:

I said, come sit with me. I don't wanna be alone. I'll buy you whatever you want. So we went to the Stephen f Austin Hotel, sat out on the patio, ran up a $500 bill. My brother found out, bought a one way flight, put me in my own car, drove me back to Dallas.

John:

It wasn't stop. It wasn't a con a condemning, get your life together, you idiot. It was I I needed help beyond myself at that point in time. I was I was beyond the point of me listening to some good advice. Put me in my car, drove me out, family intervention, AA, then Christian recovery, end of the church, men's bible study, people taking gospel chances on me.

John:

You're one of them, and, here I am.

Wayne:

That reminds me of another story of the gospels where they they find the guy, and they they can't get Jesus to come to him, so they pick him up and they carry him to Jesus. Yeah. Right? So they take this guy and and, you know, arms and legs not working. Right?

Wayne:

He's a paralytic, and and they carry him to this house where Jesus is. They can't get him in the door. It's too crowded. So they go to the roof, and they break a hole in it. And this is way, you know, pre electricity.

Wayne:

So all of a sudden, there's light in the middle of the room. Mhmm. You know? What's going on?

John:

Yeah.

Wayne:

And then they lower this guy, and I love all the drawings. Right? They have this guy on a bed. It's probably like a human pinata. Right?

Wayne:

It's like in this in this sack being lowered down

John:

That's right.

Wayne:

In front of Jesus to say, would you heal my friend? The the going and finding and the relational equity required, and, you know, you're putting yourself out there, and what are these people gonna think of me, and am I gonna mess this guy's house up? I mean, you're going through all these efforts to fly to Austin, your brother is, to get you in your car, drive you all the way back here, and all that sweat and financial equity because you're worth it. You're not only worth it to a human, you're worth it so much more to the son of man. 100%.

Wayne:

And to me, the I just love the the relation see, people ask me all the time, you know, what's the secret sauce? There is no secret sauce. The secret sauce is relationships. Right? It's the relationships horizontally between us and vertically between us and the Lord.

Wayne:

Right? And the Holy Spirit makes all that work. You know, I I was an addict. For years, it was porn, right, and everything related to that, and it was really just a a holy spirit moment. I mean, I was suicidal.

Wayne:

I actually tried to kill myself. Mhmm. Had a misfire with a gun and, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff. I had a traumatic brain injury before then, bunch of crazy stuff. And when I went to college and I started going to AA meetings, it's because I couldn't find anything that was similar that that had any meaning to me.

Wayne:

You know?

John:

Right.

Wayne:

And I remember reading through the big book, you know, the story in there is, you know, I I I can't deny the change I've seen in you, right, John's story and or Bill's story, and and I I love that that something has transformed in someone's life, and it's not because they just decided, I wanna quit. I'm tired of this. You know? AA says pray to the carpet. It's holding you up.

Wayne:

Pray to the doorknob. It got you in here. Really, it's it's a relationship with a higher power, and our opportunity when we go out is really just to make that introduction

John:

That's right.

Wayne:

And not to beg someone to to change their life, but to introduce them to the life changer.

John:

Yeah. Absolutely. So I'm I'm so glad you said that. No no one can change their life. People are out there.

John:

They think they can. Bookstores are full of self help. You can't change you because you have a supernatural problem of sin that demands a supernatural answer. It's not humanly possible to conquer sin. It is supernaturally possible.

John:

The Holy Spirit is so often overlooked. He is, 1, the one that reveals Christ to you, like, can remove the veil, and 2, he's the sanctifier. Meaning because there's a lot of people on the streets that have a saving faith. I mean, you've talked to them. I've talked to them.

John:

They're believers. And, actually, so many of them have great faith, but but are are living in that carnality like a first Corinthians 5, just stuck in the addiction. But the Holy Spirit's the sanctifier, And so often, we're the ones wrestling with our own sin in futility. Like, we can't. We're just, like, 2 steps forward, 3 back, and keep falling and falling and falling until there's, like, okay.

John:

The gospel's not just heaven when I die. It's that he saves me, and he keeps me safe. And so a daily dependency, and as you said, in relationship, there's been there's an amazing TED Talk out there that's like, why in Vietnam was there rampant heroin and drug use, and when they came back, they just dropped the drugs and went back to the factories and did their work? Well, it's because they they came back to relationship. Without relationship, vertically and horizontally, we're just in a lot of trouble.

Wayne:

I love that TED talk, and and it's completely secular in nature, but it it talks about how, you know, what's addiction is more about disconnection Mhmm. Than anything. And it's community that we can work on, and it's community. At the end of that TED Talk, it's if you go to look up TED Talks, it's it's called Everything We Know About Addiction is Wrong. Mhmm.

Wayne:

And it's about 15 minutes and totally worth worth the the the time. He talks about, hey. If I have addicts in my life, they need me to sit with them. They need me to show up and care for them like your brother did for you. I think that's so, so off awesome.

Wayne:

And and as people are and as we're working with addicts on the streets, it's so important that not only that we show up that I think that there is a consistency. So one of the reasons why we started Our Calling, we didn't wanna start a nonprofit, is because when you go out once a week on a Friday night and you see a guy and you realize that once a week is not gonna cut it

John:

Right.

Wayne:

Right, he needs someone that can sit with him for hours on end, maybe every day. Right? It it it just this part time weekend warrior kind of ministry thing is very important, and it's very great. But the the equity required to spend the long relationship and take the deep investment Mhmm. I mean, like, your brother came for you.

Wayne:

What are we doing for people that don't have a brother?

John:

Yep. And so this is, like, so I mean, God's word is so good. In in Hebrews 313, he says, encourage one another daily so that you will not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Meaning, church on Sunday, that's good. Morning Bible study on Wednesday, that's good.

John:

It's altogether insufficient, and you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Like, your spirit will harden against the things of God, voice of God, relationship with God, and you'll be deceived. He's like, you literally run the tape, you're gonna get deceived by sin. And you see that, and there in the scripture, God says the antidote is a daily encouragement in the body of Christ, like a a communal, hey. That's death for you.

John:

There's a better way. Come with me. Let's have a meal together. Tell me your story. Let me hear your pain.

John:

How'd you you know, all that stuff, but that it's daily, and that, otherwise, it's not just the homeless. It's all of us. You're gonna see, like, a a human being unravel without that daily fellowship. You've been that to me today just before we started recording. And and God has has wired it that way, and so it's it's huge.

John:

I think about also when you talked about the paralytic being lowered into the room. So interesting. Faith is inanimate. Like, you can't see my faith right now. I I have it.

John:

I believe you believe that I have it. Believe you have it. I can't see it. Jesus says he saw their faith, that as they were ripping apart that ceiling and lowering down their friend, he saw faith. And so that's warm.

John:

That's huge. That that as we are loving our brother or sister or those who are not yet, and we're we're welcoming them into the kingdom through love and relationship, God is seeing your faith as you stop that you might think, like, man, this person, they're never gonna get well. They're never gonna change. They're never gonna accept my invitation, and that's, like, that's to lack faith. God sees it, and he sees you in it, making the efforting towards those image bearers no matter their circumstance.

John:

But then, also, there's a there's a wisdom in that story, historical story, where they knew I can't, but he can't. So I'm gonna bring them to Jesus, but I am under no illusion that I could be the one to make this paralytic walk. I know that I can't make that addict free. My job is just to bring them to him, and so I'm not gonna have some savior complex. I'm gonna take them to the savior who can handle every complexity and make them well.

John:

And so, if you looked at my text, I've got daily text with other addicts, and I'm just saying not can you quit for life. They know they need to quit for life, but I know that's impossible. If you could do this on your own. The next 24 hours, proactive decision for 24 hours by God's strength, could you? And let's talk or text the next day.

John:

And that's there's one guy that's got 88 days, another guy that's got 16. And the guy was 16, honestly, it was because his family made him. And he said, how long are we gonna have to do this BS? Because it was imposed on him. Well, now, dude, that guy's changed.

John:

He's he has tasted the peace of Christ and, communal living, I can't do I don't I don't have the power to that. Jesus does.

Wayne:

I love when I'm teaching a bible study here with a bunch of homeless guys, to be able to ask the question, how long have you been clean? Right? So even I think about 15 years ago when I was doing the the bible study, the life skills class at the bridge, to be able to ask the question, how long have you been clean, and to listen to people throughout the room say 3 weeks, 2 months, 3 days. And to be able to celebrate that Yes. You've been clean 3 days, that's so awesome.

Wayne:

Yes. Like, that might be the first time you've been clean for 3 days and forever.

John:

Yeah.

Wayne:

Right? Some of these guys started using or drugs were forced on them when they were children. Yeah. And to be able to celebrate and have someone that can celebrate and walk with them through those 3 days because day 4 is gonna be hell.

John:

Yes.

Wayne:

Right? To be able to walk with them. That that first day, I I loved, Desire Chips in in AA. Right? You know, will you be clean for the sober for the next 24 hours?

Wayne:

Right?

John:

So if you're listening, you can't see this, but if you're on video, this is, you can see it's, like, rubbed off. But that's my 24 hour chip from December 27, 2005, and so I'm 18 years now, and my sponsor would be like, man, the have you seen the 15 year coin? They're really nice.

Wayne:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John:

And I'm like, I actually don't want that fit. That 15 year coin to me feels dangerous, because I'm resting on all these years that I have. What matters is that it it's that I surrender to God today and walk by his power and spirit. I don't like, and in a way, in a real sense, I love that you care more about the 3 days than the 18 years because a day of sobriety to me now comes pretty easily. I'm still tempted, but but those first few days, man, there's a battle for your soul.

John:

And, and I'm I'm waging war and other struggles, not being harsh with my kids or or whatever, but, there's still sin that I'm worrying against. But but coming out of addiction, I love that you're, like, celebrating 3 days and not just like, well, we'll celebrate when you get to a month. Those first 3 days, that's harder than my 18th year.

Wayne:

Yeah. So that brings up a whole another topic. I mean, I've I've driven and, well, our team has driven more people to detox and rehabs than, you know, we can count. List last year, 2023, we got, 1,357 people off the streets. Right?

Wayne:

So some of them into housing, some of them into rehab, some of them into long term recovery programs, some of them into all kinds of different options. So many times in the old days, I would take someone to a rehab or detox, and I would see them out the next day. I'd take them, and they'd be there 2 days, and then they'd be back out on the streets. And I would get so discouraged. I'm like, what the heck, man?

Wayne:

You decided you wanted to go. I we got you into Green Oaks. We got you into Homer Bound. We got you into one of these places. 2 days later, it it to me, it's like the first 24 hours or maybe the first 3 days, the attack of the enemy is so strong because he wants them back, and it reminds me of Exodus.

Wayne:

These people are slaves, and they are rescued. They're marching out of Egypt, and it it's not a day or 2 in that they're wanting to go back.

John:

Right. Because of onions.

Wayne:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We we

John:

We had onions and leeks. Yeah. It's like, yeah. But you got manna and quail, and, like, I got you. You're

Wayne:

free. Slaves

John:

Yeah. But but they wanna go back. But the food and yeah. It's real. Fleshly appetite, man.

John:

It's screaming. I think also, yeah, the Exodus story, and I think about the fact that the way you are going after those people, that's Ezekiel 34 where the Lord rebukes the shepherds of Israel. He's like, you're just in this for you. He's like, you haven't gone after the strays. You haven't fed the naked.

John:

I'm sorry. Fed the hungry, clothe the naked. You're only in you're not caring about anybody else, so I'm gonna go do it, and he does in the person of Jesus. But that willingness for you to go, and then I think about also when they do get there, I served a summer in Sudan working with alcoholics, like, post Darfur and all that, and there was a real I was like, I've only got 3 months, and I gotta get back to seminary, and so I it's not enough for them to get sober. They have to get Jesus.

John:

They have to be born again. Because and someone said this to me, the sending missions agency, and I was like, oh, I'll never forget that. They said getting someone sober without salvation is like giving painkillers to a cancer patient. They may feel better, but they're still dying eternally. And so there is that sense of, like, oh, I got a couple days detox and relief, but if there's not heart inward change, they're gonna go back.

Wayne:

Yeah. I've seen so many guys go into detox because they're trying to get away from their dealer. Right? They owe them money or they just it's too hot outside. It's too cold outside.

Wayne:

They want a few days relief. But unless there's that heart change you know, we we had a, a homeless friend die recently within the last week, and we have about 5 deaths a week here, but some people are really, really close to. This is a guy that died recently, and, you know, we think about how much he loved our people, how much our folks loved him. Yeah. I mean, he was so connected with so many folks.

Wayne:

I mean and and he was 86 years old.

John:

Mhmm.

Wayne:

Right? So super connected to us. He loved coming to church services. He loved, you know, being involved here, but none of that really matters if he didn't have a relationship with Christ. We're not here to make friends.

Wayne:

We're not here because we're gonna complete some homeless guy's life by giving him a friend, or our life is gonna be completed because we have a friend that lives on the streets, they need Jesus.

John:

Yeah.

Wayne:

They need Jesus more than they need sobriety.

John:

Right. You

Wayne:

know? If this guy's still drinking and coming to bible study and pursuing Christ, we can work on that. Yeah. But the the need for Christ has to be first in all this. I'm not changing channels, but it it's kinda related.

Wayne:

There's such a push in, in homeless services towards Housing First. Mhmm. Housing First is a model that has been adopted by many cities, and some cities think it's awesome. Some cities come back and say, okay. Now it's not so cool.

Wayne:

The the philosophy of it is you put someone in housing first, and then you can provide all the support services they need. Our old model was you go to detox, you go to rehab, you get clean and sober, and then you get a house. So it's kinda like you earn it. And if you if you relapse, you you lose your house. You're back on the street, so kind of a punishment model.

Wayne:

The the the housing first model, some of the challenges we get is once someone is in housing, we want them to have access to all these other services, but they they really don't exist. How it relates to addiction, and this the reason why I bring it up is how important is recovery before we work on the other things. Right? Because because I know when someone's in housing, it's, you know, they're it it it's harm reduction. It's a safer space, But, you know, giving an addict a full belly and giving them a sweet place to live is nice and it's kind.

Wayne:

Mhmm. But if you're still shooting heroin

John:

Right.

Wayne:

Right, have we really done justice?

John:

Mhmm. Yeah. I think, you really have to be aware of enabling. So the proverb says, discipline your son, for in this, there is life. Do not be a willing party to their death.

John:

And I think we can be, unintentionally. And I have really good intentions of, like, I'm I'm gonna provide this home for you, and really, in a sense or or it's maybe akin to giving someone money on the side of the road, and you might as well buy their next hit or short shot, whatever, like, to put that into their hand. It's it's to be a willing party. You think, like, I'm giving them money, and they're gonna get a meal. But, really, I mean, I did I did not need things like that.

John:

Mhmm. I needed hard truth. I need relationship and love. Now my my family did take me in for a time, but there were great stipulations. I mean, it was basically sober living.

John:

And so I think that's where if if there was which is why sober living is a thing, where you can you can have a place in a home, some are paid to stay, some are not, as you agree to the rules and stipulations of the house, which doesn't just mean you're sober when you're in the house. It's commitment to sobriety, attending meetings. It's all baked in for holistic healing and not just we don't want you to be in the rain. And so I think it's really important to consider all of that, which is why I've, like, loved your vision since I heard it before our calling was even birthed was this is discipleship. It's ministry, and not just we're gonna fill bellies, and you're carrying holistically, spiritually, foremost.

Wayne:

I I remember being under a bridge one time, and this guy, all of a sudden, in the middle of a conversation, says, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'll be right back. He jumps up.

Wayne:

He runs to the corner because one of his regulars shows up to give him cash. You know, he's a panhandler, and some people just give that guy $10 on a regular basis. Right? So he he says, hold on. He jumps up to the corner, goes and gets cash and comes back.

Wayne:

As he gets up, I look around and just observe in the environment where we are, and there's this huge mountain, almost a beautiful art piece of empty cans, and they're all forties. Right? And so it's where he sleeps. There's a mountain of empty forties, of 40 ounce beers. And so he comes and sits back by me, and I said, hey.

Wayne:

How many forties do you have a day? And he says, at least 6. So you do the math. Right? I went to public school, but still, that's 240 ounces of beer.

Wayne:

That's 2 gallons. Like, I could not drink 2 gallons of anything. I mean, I think I'd be peeing all day long. Yeah. But imagine taking that guy drinking 2 gallons of beer a day, giving him a house, and hoping it gets better, and just hoping one day he decides

John:

If anything, it would get worse.

Wayne:

Yeah. Because we see that with especially with women that are super vulnerable. We've seen so many women get into housing programs, and immediately, they die. I mean, we've seen so many people in housing die. It's it's nasty.

Wayne:

Housing first is not a terrible solution. It just needs all the support that it's promised. Right. Right? And recovery is a huge part of that.

Wayne:

Recovery doesn't happen in isolation, though. Right? So expecting someone just to get better because they're in a safe space

John:

Right.

Wayne:

Where recovery requires community. What kind of community did it require in your

John:

in your recovery journey? It's a great question. I think for me, and I would say for all, really, I think these are these are these can be easily generalized to any addiction. So, I mean, we have may may have listeners that are listening for, their relationship with homeless while having a shopping addiction or a food addiction or a lust addiction, a gambling addiction, a screaming at their spouse addiction. So I would say we don't stop sins.

John:

We swap sins. So just, for the listeners to to maybe take off, the how can I help hat and think, like, how do I need help? Because we all have that. But I think, one, it's a commitment to others who are on that journey, like a commitment to sobriety. So for me as an alcoholic, it was like, my friendships changed.

John:

My pastime changed. I still loved my friends, but, I mean, there for the 1st few days, I would still go to the bars because I didn't know what else to do at night. I don't what do you do after work? I mean, sit and play board games? That sounds horrible.

John:

So I would go to bars, and I would drink Coke, and then it switched to soda water. And I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I don't this is it it started to feel like a a waste of time, and, frankly, it made me sad. Just really felt out of place, and so my my friendships changed. And then it was like, I need I need not only to just stop something.

John:

It's what I said at the beginning about I've gotta replace these affections, because my flesh was still screaming. I was sober, but I didn't have Jesus for the first, like, probably 2 months. And so it was a, like, white knuckling, started, like, you know, being more interested in, like, alright. I gotta find the next girl or these manic thoughts about grandiose, you know, business, whatever. I was I was swapping sins instead of stopping, and so it was a I needed to be around, you know, change we say change your playground, your playmates, and your pastime, like, how you're using your time, where you are, who you're with, but then also I needed to be fed.

John:

It started with AA, but very quickly, after probably 3 months, and I'm not this is not prescriptive. After 3 months of AA and surrendering my life to Jesus, my sponsor was like, where you where have you been? You're not coming to meetings every day anymore. Like, what's going on? Are you doing okay?

John:

Did you relapse? I was like, you know what? Even the big book says apart from a spiritual experience, there will be no healing. Charlie, I have experienced healing through Jesus. I I have surrendered my life to Jesus, been born again, and I don't need more AA, I need more God.

John:

And so then what that looked like I'm not throwing AA under the bus. It served a purpose in my life. But the purpose was sobriety. It wasn't it wasn't life change for me. The church and the scriptures was I bought a Bible.

John:

It just tore it apart. I mean, I was like, there is truth on this page for me, and I will find it. And so it's just so full of underlinings. Just start for the word of God Every day, start my knees on my knees, surrendering my day to the lord, still do. I'm a really bad lord in my life.

John:

He's good. So I just every day is given to him. And then surrounding myself with believers, because of that Hebrews 3 13 passage that I said. And so having, new structure, new disciplines, new new food. Like, if you just, as I said, stop filling yourself with that addiction, your flesh will be screaming in hunger, and so it's to satiate, with something better.

John:

It it says in Galatians 5 16, walk by the spirit, there's the command, and then it falls with a promise, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. So he says just just walk with me, and walking with God can be with his people and using the gifts you've been given, all these things, but he promises, and you won't do what you don't wanna do. And so it does require holistic life change. But I guess for the listeners out there trying to help others, that's not an overnight thing. That was a that was a year long journey for me to unwind unhealthy things and start new things, and there was failing in the midst of that.

John:

You know? Dating poorly and still addicted to nicotine, looking at porn, that there it was progressive sanctification. God says, one plants, one waters, God gives the growth. So we're to be faithful. In vain, we rise early, stay up late, eating the bread of anxious toil, for God gives to his beloved even while they sleep.

John:

Just this faithful, I'm gonna do what I can do, point them to Jesus, invite them to come with me, not to stop, but to come, and, God will do the work as they yield.

Wayne:

So you're saying just build a relationship and walk beside somebody.

John:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think in that building of a relationship, this is not look, drowning people drown people. The woman who, she penned, tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, she wrote that because her husband went into, the the Jersey Shores after a drowning child who in turn drowned him. So this isn't lone ranger Christianity where you're just gonna go out and save every homeless person.

John:

So yes through relationship, and I would say you can't be the only relationship. You're pointing them to Jesus, and then it's like this. Well, in seminary, there was a there was a girl who was homeless, and she had dietary issues. And I was like, okay. Well, she was like, I need something, but I can't have this food, so I'm I'm going to Whole Foods.

John:

I'm broke. I'm buying her this stuff. And it was it was drowning me financially. And I saw her years later with more relationship, thriving. She was never gonna thrive with just me, getting her gluten free, whatever.

John:

And it was crushing me. And so, yes, relationship, and you can't be the sole one. They need a soul, s o u l, relationship, and they need many through the body of Christ.

Wayne:

The question that Jesus asked the guy at the pool of Bethesda. Yeah. Is that a fair question to ask someone who's an addict? Do you wanna get healed?

John:

Yeah. I think it's a great question. I mean, if God in flesh ask it, I think it's a really good question, and then I just think we have to be really, really tender. It's a reason for me getting choked up, with their response. Because when I got that sober 24 hour chip, they said, is there anyone here who who wants to commit to staying sober for 24 hours?

John:

And it was like the spirit of God was lifting me out of my seat, like, go walk forward. You're dying. So I did. I walked forward to say, I I wanna commit to staying sober for 24 hours. Sorry.

John:

He said then he asked a different question. He said, so you wanna quit drinking? Well, that's a different question. I didn't wanna quit drinking. I just was willing to commit to 24 hours.

John:

And so there in front of everybody, I'm like, no. I don't wanna quit drinking. I I don't have any desire to quit drinking, but I know I'm sitting on a time bomb. And he started backpedaling in a really gracious way. He could've said because a lot of times they say, all you need to quit drinking is the desire to quit.

John:

He could've gone lying in the letter on me and said, then sit down and come again. And instead, he goes I think he put his arm around me and said, hey. Don't worry about that. Just go one day. So, yes, it's a fair question to ask, but be so tender in their broken, feeble response, because they don't know which ends up.

John:

I didn't. But with the smallest bit of love and desire, God can change a life. Because that guy, he answered with an excuse. He said, I do, but nobody puts me into the water when the angel stirs it. And Jesus didn't go on a theological treatise of, you know what?

John:

Well, guess who sends the angels? And you know what? If you could and you would, then, you know, 34 years, you showed up by now and just have somebody sit here. And soon as you see the water, he didn't he didn't do any of that. Met him with grace.

John:

And then, so interesting, he says, pick up your your mat. Why? He didn't need his mat anymore. That filthy, disgusting mat. But the next thing they know, that paralytic is in the temple worshiping.

John:

And Jesus is like, it's you. And everybody's super upset about Jesus healing people on the Sabbath. And there's a phrase as I was studying that passage and teaching it once, and I'm like, you carry your bed to reach the dead. Jesus had him walking around with that mat, that nasty, flea ridden, diseased, filled with pus, who knows what, urine map as an unmistakable wait. I know who you are.

John:

I know exactly who you are. Just like the Gerdessini Maniac, how how are you walking? How are you in the temple and not at the pool of the Bethesda to testify to Jesus? And so I'll tell anybody and everybody about my alcoholism because I didn't just decide to be a better person. I'm carrying my bed to reach the dead.

John:

Like, my seminary degree is not what I'm using to share the gospel with people. Like, nobody hears like, nobody's trusting in Jesus because I'm like, well, I've got a THM from DTS. I was there with Wayne Walker. They're they're hearing. I was an alcoholic, cutting my arms, gun to my head, doctors told me I was dying.

John:

Jesus saved me. 18 years sober, I'm a teaching pastor, what in the world? I got a wife and kids. None of that was possible apart from Jesus, and what he did for me, he will do for you. I don't know how, when, but Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and always, and so we take one step.

John:

Just one step. You don't have to figure out how to change your whole life. I couldn't. Got the pool of Bethesda couldn't. And then after he changes your life, carry your bed, and you will reach the dead.

John:

Meaning, don't forget and don't ever stop saying like Paul did. I was once a persecutor and violent man, but he had mercy on me, oh, have mercy on you too, to put on display his unlimited patience. Sorry about that. Well, I'm not sorry. I just, I love what you do.

John:

I love the listeners and their heart to go after any Ezekiel 34 way. Like, I will go after the lost. I know that's why they're listening or watching, and and I was 1. And they're gonna encounter many more, and they're gonna see miracles before their eyes, to not lose heart.

Wayne:

And to love them well.

John:

Love God, love others. Simple. We'd make it really complicated, but Jesus said whole of law and prophets summed up in this.

Wayne:

Thanks, man.

John:

Yeah. I love you. Love you. Love this ministry. So thankful for the listeners, all they're doing.