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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:02.062)
Okay, welcome to the courageous coach podcast. Welcome everybody. It's good to have you here. And today I am joined by Fred Ronia Ruocca. I'm delighted that you're here. Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast. This conversation, we were just saying it's a conversation, right? And we're talk about all things coaching, all things courageous coaching.
But what I would like to start with, Femme, if it's okay, to just tell us a little bit about you.
Febronia (00:33.894)
Well, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me, Melissa. It's lovely to be having this conversation with you today, especially as we're both Henley peers as well. And what was your question? What does courageous coaching mean to me? Was that your first question?
Melissa Hague (00:47.874)
No, just tell us about yourself first of all.
Febronia (00:50.208)
Okay, sorry I misheard you there. So my name is Febronia. I'm a Global Insights and Analytics Director. I've worked in the marketing and insights sectors for the last 20 plus years. And two and a half years ago, I started the journey to become an executive leadership coach and I'm now fully certified and accredited by the EMCC and the ICF.
Melissa Hague (01:15.566)
Yeah, brilliant. And so I mean, you mentioned Henley there, Feb. I'm so first of all, let me ask you what what drew you to coaching two and a half years ago? What did you wake up one morning and think? I'm an executive leadership coach. You know, what what drew you to it?
Febronia (01:28.892)
Hahaha
Febronia (01:33.508)
It was a slow burn. think in the insights roles that I've in the roles that I've done for the big multi corporates on big brands over the years, I've always had a part in mentoring and coaching team members because we're working with technical skills, market research skills, project management skills and so on. So it's always been there in the background. And then I think just a little bit before I joined Henley, I started mentoring for Durham University and Lancaster University.
And it just all started to come together and it coincided with me seeing a post from a peer from Unilever at the time who was doing the course at Henley and I thought, wow, that sounds right up my street. So I contacted them and they sent me all the information and there you have it. And that was the beginning of the journey. So it was kind of a slow evolution, always heading in that direction.
Melissa Hague (02:29.366)
Yeah, but not necessarily knowing that you were heading in that direction maybe to begin with.
Febronia (02:35.577)
Yeah, and not knowing that I would develop this new career path and a bit more of a portfolio career, but that it would also complement my insights leadership. So I didn't realize that the two bits lock quite beautifully together, the yin and yang really of coaching and insights.
Melissa Hague (02:55.331)
okay, I'm fascinated by that. Tell me more about that yin and yang.
Febronia (02:59.727)
Well, in Insights, we normally support senior marketers and other senior leaders from different departments in the business with informing them of different customer behaviors and opportunities that we identify in the data. And there's a lot of influencing and there's a lot of stakeholder management and partnership because you have to convince them that what you're promoting or what you're seeing in the data has potential for commercial opportunity.
So you're kind of coaching a little bit in that style as well. So there's that aspect. And then in coaching, you partner your thinker or your client, however you wish to call them. And the coaching is only as good as that relationship develops and that partnership and trust. So it's very much yin and yang. So there's always that leadership focus and also that supporting, partnering and helping to get a good outcome.
Melissa Hague (03:57.326)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that I'm sort of making that link. One of the things that I often talk about in kind of early coach development is that, you know, telling people what to do, rather than helping them to work it out themselves is never as effective, right, in terms of particularly in terms of long term behavior change. So in terms of your insights work, right, it's not about telling them what to do with the data, right?
Febronia (04:09.595)
Mmm.
Febronia (04:18.085)
Hmm.
Febronia (04:22.329)
No, it's also guiding them, explaining the data, how you've collected it, but then helping them see how it's meeting or mitigating against their objectives. So you're helping them have an aha moment. You're not being condescending or patronizing and saying, sometimes you might have to say, but this is what the data is really saying, but you're guiding them on a data storytelling journey.
Melissa Hague (04:48.074)
Sounds like a good training ground for a coach, right? Yeah, brilliant, brilliant.
Febronia (04:52.845)
And also you see leadership at its best because some of the senior leaders that I've worked with from these big corporations on big brands, they're big roles that they have, big serious decisions about millions of pounds of investment. So you see leadership and all the challenges that it brings. So when they come up in coaching, there's a sympathy and an empathy because you have real understanding of the environmental pressures, economic environments and challenges that they're facing.
Yeah, it helps on many different levels.
Melissa Hague (05:25.326)
Definitely, And so you mentioned about Henley. so I'm wondering because that was, you said, kind of the beginning of the journey into coaching for you. So we've obviously got some shared experiences of Henley. And I'm wondering what was that experience like for you kind of coming from a, you into that kind of, you come from that corporate world with, you know, with a
Febronia (05:39.447)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (05:54.52)
good job title and this is what I do and you know, and then into Henley's coaching program. So what was that experience like for you?
Febronia (06:04.815)
Well, first of all, I'm a lifetime learner. love study, learning, reading. So it ticked that box. I was hungry for that learning experience and it was at a good stage in my life. So that was fantastic. Going in as a marketeer and learning to be a coach at the beginning, that was a revelation because marketeers were generally quite extrovert, not everybody, but I would say I'm pretty extrovert, pretty happy to talk, pretty happy to lead.
A lot of coaching lessons that we learned in the early days was taking a step back, know, reflecting, being quiet, being silent. And that was very counterintuitive to my natural leadership behaviors. So at the beginning, was, wow, this is really interesting. And when I saw the examples of the coaching, was like, my God, that blows my mind.
So it really provoked me in a good way. It was a great provocation, but also it was difficult at the beginning. It was difficult to sit in the silence. It was difficult not to pipe up all the time.
Melissa Hague (07:09.954)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so I love that difficult. That's actually that's so true. I love that right that kind of like that almost almost to begin with, I remember when I started coaching that sense of being sat on your hands having to sit on your and that feeling very restrictive and like
Febronia (07:15.483)
Hahaha
Febronia (07:28.717)
Yes, yes.
Melissa Hague (07:34.348)
this is so hard. and, but gradually, the more you practice that it doesn't, well, for me, I find I don't feel like I'm sat on my hands anymore. It feels more natural. But to begin with that, that real sense of restriction, right? Don't say that, don't do this, don't, you know,
Febronia (07:50.34)
And interrupting, I kept interrupting and it was like, my God. Because then you realize, my God, just how much do I, and I just did it then, you know, so just how much we do it in the marketing space. Cause everyone's so excited, animated. I've got the ideas I want to show, God, that sparked this idea and I'm bouncing off you. But are we actually listening to each other?
Melissa Hague (07:54.604)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (08:13.006)
Well, that, here's a whole episode. We actually listen to each other because I think you're right. think in the corporate world, is often, and the intention isn't always a bad intention, right? It's not malicious in any way, but I think there is always that sense of needing to get your voice heard, right? And because you've got a good idea or you're excited or you know that...
Febronia (08:15.771)
hahahaha
Febronia (08:25.348)
No.
Febronia (08:31.492)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (08:36.078)
suggesting ideas gets rewarded. So you want to be the one who gets in there with those ideas. And then suddenly there's this whole other world where you say, well, you just need to sit in silence, don't interrupt. It's very, very different. Yeah, absolutely.
Febronia (08:46.587)
Mm-hmm.
Febronia (08:50.543)
And it's the time factor because in marketing you want to show that you're doing your job. You want to show you're on top of it. You've got ideas. You're on strategy and time is limited. Time is of the essence because time is money and everybody's vying for that air time and you're all good, you know, working on big brands. Everybody's good. That's why they're there. So it's a good positive rivalry, if you like, for want of a better word. It's good intent, very well and good intended. But
you're all kind of crashing in for airtime. So taking that step back, it's quite scary at the beginning. I felt so uncomfortable with the silences. And then the more we learned about time to think, I was like, my God, I'm not sure if I can do this.
Melissa Hague (09:36.462)
Yeah, I, you know, I think that, I guess time's an interesting one, actually, because I think that one of the challenges that I had initially when we're not because I started as an internal coach is that many, most of the clients I was working with internally were, you know, heads of kind of director level, you know, board members and so on. And they, they don't have a lot of time, right? So I had this real pressure of what I've gotten for an hour. Do you know how rare that happened for a whole hour?
Febronia (10:04.357)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (10:06.21)
I better make it worth their while.
Febronia (10:08.35)
god, yeah, that old hairy chestnut.
Melissa Hague (10:11.126)
Yeah, definitely that need to add value and am I doing enough and should I be doing more and yeah, all of those things definitely.
Febronia (10:19.929)
Yeah, all that performative stuff that came up for me on the Henley course and especially doing the first assignments. Am I good enough? Am I bringing value? Am I driving insight, aha moments in each session? And it doesn't work like that. And it actually takes a bit of time for that penny to drop. And it wasn't really until I started really working towards my ICF accreditation.
and really studying and looking at the competencies, doing all the hours that suddenly, I think that's when I grew into the coach that I am starting to be today. And I say starting to be today because it's still an evolution and a journey. But now the silence, I'm very comfortable with the silence is I encourage the silence. I don't shy away from it. I don't feel the performative need. I partner much more
with humility, my ego is a bit more part to the side, my big marketing ego is part to the side and I didn't really have a big, I had a bit of an ego, not a huge one. But you have to, you you have to have in the industry. But that's part to the side and I think that's where I'm starting to see the courage. You it comes in the experience, it comes in letting go.
Melissa Hague (11:42.86)
Yeah. yeah, that's so true. That's so true. Yeah, comes in the letting go. I love that, Feb. So tell me a little bit about what courageous coaching kind of looks like for you right now.
Febronia (11:56.678)
Well, it's interesting because I've just gone through a period of refocusing my positioning and I've seemed to attract a lot of high performing leaders. With the high performance leaders comes a whole raft of things to explore. I don't want to say challenges because they're positives and superpowers as well as challenges sometimes. And with that is coming real courage because I'm also noticing a lot of stuff about myself.
that I'm in this same group, the things that I have done in my career, things I could have done better, things that I need to work on moving forwards. So not only am I growing in courage with regards to my own ambition and self-development, but it's a real privilege to support these fantastic leaders.
Melissa Hague (12:50.625)
and
Melissa Hague (12:53.954)
curious you said you said I seem to attract a lot of high performing leaders. And that I seem to it's kind of like it so that that suggests to me that it's not necessarily deliberate. So what what's that about? Do think?
Febronia (12:59.419)
Mm.
Febronia (13:10.595)
I think I'm quite academic, so and I'm quite driven and I think the insights credibility that I've had over the years in the industry, I've demonstrated certain capabilities and I think that's been attractive to a lot of the individuals that supported me in preparing for ICF, that they are possibly younger stages of their trajectory but of the same ilk.
long life learners, ambitious, also entrepreneurs, a whole mix of skills. So I didn't set out with that in mind. I didn't set out, I set out to empower leaders. I didn't have this thing about, you know, high performers and that's just kind of evolved. But I think the more I developed that courage to let go, slow down, step back, actively listen.
the more they were able to go deeper and explore their own topics in a way which was meaningful to them. And we had some terrific aha moments where they realized what they needed to do to be really fulfilled in their careers and lives.
Melissa Hague (14:25.742)
That's really interesting because what struck me then as I was thinking that there's something about
we tend to, we can quite often select to work not just coaches, but we quite often select people to work with who are like us, right? That sense of connection is kind of there. And so I imagine that some of these leaders may well be, you know, I don't know, looking at your profile or website or however they're finding you, right? And, you know, there's that your background, your history, clearly, you know, a high performer yourself, know,
Febronia (14:49.967)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (15:09.902)
working in global organizations, there's lots of stuff in there, right? That I'm sure that they're looking at and going, this, this, yeah, she, she, she, she gets me or she gets the world I work in or yeah, or and clearly she's, you know, lot of energy and all that good stuff. And then they come and meet you, right? And you have all of that history and it's all true, right? But they come and meet you and they meet this person who has now learned.
Febronia (15:17.893)
That's interesting, it's inspiring, yeah.
haha
Febronia (15:28.442)
Yeah.
Febronia (15:35.514)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (15:40.094)
slow down and create space and create silence and use silence and not interrupt all those things we talked about. And I wonder, and maybe neither of us probably know the answer to this, we can guess maybe, I'm really interested in your thoughts, because I wonder what they, I mean, what they think, that because there's a real role modelling opportunity for you there, isn't there?
Febronia (15:42.928)
Yeah.
Febronia (16:02.597)
Well, it's multi-fold. think they're attracted because of what I have achieved in my trajectory. It's interesting and inspirational for them on their path. Although, you know, the insights and marketing industry is very impacted by AI and evolving all the time. It's incredible how it's shaping up. So there is that, but when they meet me as a coach, they trust me that I understand their issues, their work challenges, because I've been there. I know those environments.
But they're also intrigued, I think, by where is this going? And then I set it up in a way that, you know, I know your field of work, I'm in it myself, but we're not going to focus on that. We're going to focus on you. We're not here to give advice. We're not here to fix things. And they're kind of, so what are we here to do? But that's when the magic happens, you know, because suddenly the space that you hold for them, as you well know,
Melissa Hague (16:53.71)
Yeah.
Febronia (17:02.105)
and the positive regard, irrespective of what they're going through, just unlocks that wonderful magic. And it's a privilege, it's a true privilege.
Melissa Hague (17:11.778)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I quite often use the word privilege. I also use the word joy. It brings me a lot of joy, right? To see those that people it's almost like watching people unfold, right? Yeah, yeah, it is a real joy, definitely. And as you say, privilege. And I think the other thing I'm conscious of is that
Febronia (17:17.145)
Yeah, me too.
Febronia (17:23.361)
It is Lair by Lair.
Melissa Hague (17:34.016)
As you said, like when we when we train to be coaches, we learn to be coaches and we grapple with all of those things around silence and not giving advice and all of those things. I know for me as a coach, none of that, none of that has really gone away. So so there are still some not not as much as they used to be, but there are still those occasions where I kind of think
Febronia (17:42.115)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (18:01.678)
I know, I think I know what the answer is, or if they just be quiet for a minute, I could tell them, know, okay, like, there's just those moments of, or, you know, I lean forward, because I'm going to interrupt and I break the flow. you know, there's just those little moments. And I just think, how do you manage
Febronia (18:10.203)
Melissa Hague (18:23.278)
because I have various management techniques, I guess, for myself in those moments. But I'm wondering for you, what how has that developed in your practice, your ability to regulate, I guess, and manage those moments when they happen?
Febronia (18:26.831)
Thank
Febronia (18:35.429)
Well, aside from all the coaching theory from Henley and all the frameworks and learning that we do on the MSC, and I'm only part way through the MSC, I also am very interested on a personal level in nervous system, polyvagal theory, and also trauma. So I've done quite a lot of attendance of seminars which are trauma informed. And I'd say, you know, the learning that I've done over the years, I'm pretty trauma informed, although I'm not a therapist or a counselor or have any clinician
Melissa Hague (18:50.062)
Right?
Febronia (19:05.931)
academia. And I think that coupled with the learning from Henley has really opened up from the heart and this sounds a bit woo woo now, but it's opened up from the heart. And I'm aware that the power of the holding space that helps the co-regulation of the other individual. And that's when they can go deep. So I've learned to really trust in that silence and in that support.
And just watching and noticing how they're breathing, how they're reacting, I can sense, you know, they're a bit agitated than other systems in the state, one of the states that's a bit more energetic, calm them down, you know, use techniques to bring in that quiet, that peace, because then they can think better, coupled with the neuroscience that we learn, get their cognitive part of their brain functioning so they can reflect.
putting all those bits together, I'm able to manage my desire for a fast and expedient outcome. But it's work in progress, you know, it takes years to develop these skills.
Melissa Hague (20:17.486)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I, you know, I still find myself tripping on myself. If you do not mean like tripping myself up, right? I think that's quite, I think it's a very human thing to do. It's it. And so I'm always curious about how do, how do coaches, different coaches, how do they manage that in the moment? And of course, all of those things that you talked about, you know, in creating space and helping your client to slow down and create space and thinking.
Febronia (20:25.22)
Yeah, and so do I.
Febronia (20:29.591)
yeah.
Febronia (20:44.345)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (20:45.804)
your that is also impacting on your ability to stay calm and in the space and hold it right. So it's it's it's a part where you said earlier on about it being a partnership.
Febronia (20:55.227)
It's a partnership, dance, as Cleopedric always talks about it. But also you have to be compassionate with yourself. We do get it wrong sometimes. We might not be as well regulated as we need to be in that instance. So we might interject when we shouldn't, or we might project. And I think the thing is if that happens, catch yourself.
Melissa Hague (21:09.42)
Mmm.
Febronia (21:18.533)
catch yourself, forgive yourself and move on because the brain works at a pace that we can't control everything. So if we're in a heightened nervous state, we're going to be doing some of those things automatically, autonomically. We're not in control. So just to catch it and be aware and calm down so your prefrontal cortex comes back online.
Melissa Hague (21:18.723)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (21:38.03)
Absolutely. It's that staying curious piece, isn't it? That's curious that happened. Okay, I'll tuck that away.
Febronia (21:44.355)
I wonder why and afterwards when you reflect what was it, what's come up, what's come up from the past for me that made me react in that way.
Melissa Hague (21:51.342)
Absolutely, yeah definitely.
Febronia (21:53.977)
Wow, this is fascinating, we're going deep.
Melissa Hague (21:56.396)
I know. Well, I was because I think this kind of ability to regulate in the moment is such a it's yeah, exactly. It's not just as it's not even just a skill. is a real mastery. And, you know, it can be affected by so many things like I didn't sleep well last night. I'm struggling to regulate today. You know, sometimes it's in the moment stuff. And sometimes it's very deep rooted stuff. It's it's
Febronia (22:02.274)
it's a mastery.
Febronia (22:13.818)
Yeah.
Febronia (22:20.047)
Yeah. And also for females, you know, it can be our hormones, you know, some hormone imbalance, something we've eaten, something in the gut can affect it as well. And also we have different levels of energy. mean, whenever I do a podcast, I get slightly nervous. I can hear it in my voice. So I'm trying to regulate that now. But, but that's what gives me the adrenaline to think.
Melissa Hague (22:39.874)
Hmm?
Febronia (22:46.213)
So it's understanding as well that sometimes if you've got a higher sense of adrenaline, it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's energizing you. It's like you say, I love that expression, just get curious.
Melissa Hague (22:54.37)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (22:58.604)
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And I think the thing for me, and it's, it's something I kind of, it's not, I was gonna say it was a mantra, I'm not quite sure that's quite right. But it's something that I kind of hold and remind myself of before I start a session, because I know that for me, my biggest hurdle when I first started coaching was overcoming the need to help the need to give it fix, right.
Febronia (23:25.199)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (23:27.79)
because that's what I'd done my whole career up until that point. So it was a really hard thing to unlearn, right? So I was in learning and development before I became a coach and certainly in my last employed job I was with the same company for 10 years and you you were rewarded for the problem, the solution to the problem.
Febronia (23:31.652)
Yes.
What was your career, Melissa?
Uh-huh.
Febronia (23:49.989)
Problem solving.
Melissa Hague (23:50.99)
You know, you were you were rewarded for the answer, not the question, you know, all of that stuff, which wasn't necessarily wrong, but it created something in me that I then had to really work hard to unlearn as a coach. And I think the turning point for me, I mean, breathing, I'm just like, remember to breathe, because I'm not I'm a holder of my breath, like, you know, I'll stop breathing. I'm like, wonder I'm struggling. So breathe. But I the thing that really
Febronia (23:55.355)
Mm.
Febronia (24:03.963)
Hmm.
Febronia (24:12.601)
Yes.
Febronia (24:17.274)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (24:19.338)
I try and remind myself every kind of before every session, particularly with a like a new client is that the minute that you give advice or you, you you tell someone what to do, you try to fix them. What ultimately I believe I'm saying when I do that is I don't think you're good enough to get there on your own. So I'm going to tell you how to do it.
Febronia (24:41.467)
Hmm.
Mm.
Melissa Hague (24:44.308)
And it's quite a harsh thing. And that's why I've centered in on it because I don't like that. I'm like, but I believe in the endless potential of people that's I always have. I'm endlessly curious about what they can become. And so to counteract that I'm kind of like, yeah, but if you tell them what to do, you're basically saying you're not good enough to get them like, Absolutely.
Febronia (24:50.171)
Yeah.
Febronia (24:54.639)
Hmm.
Febronia (25:05.979)
that they don't have the self agency. That's so interesting because for me growing up, I had two parents who were from Italy. So my mum wasn't as adept when I was early on in my childhood with the English language. It obviously got better as I got older, but from being quite a young child, I was a bit of a fixer because I had to support and help her. My dad was at work all day. So I would already be doing thinking around adults.
solving that I shouldn't really have had to have been doing as a child, but it served me well because it made me bright and made me switched on. It made me a problem solver, but it was also a point. There was also a point in my adult life where it became maladaptive, but I worked on that and figured out, well, this is where it's come from. We don't need to be like that anymore.
Melissa Hague (25:58.254)
Yeah.
Febronia (25:58.276)
and you can let it go then. But I think recognising where it comes from, but also recognising that in some situations it's been a super, I mean that was your superpower in your career.
Melissa Hague (26:08.75)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. It was motivating. was awarded for it. You know, I recognized. Exactly, exactly. And I think that we have to, certainly for me, it was so important for me to recognize, you know, this stuff is hard to let go of. It's not easy. as you were saying, you know, be kind to yourself, right?
Febronia (26:13.145)
Yeah, you're successful.
Febronia (26:27.247)
Yeah. Be kind to yourself. Understand. And I think that's where understanding trauma and understanding self-compassion, you can go back and look at these things and say, well, you know, when I was eight or seven, I shouldn't have been having to guide mum on how to read bills and things like that. I shouldn't have had to be worried about things like that. I should play. I should have just been playing. So inject a bit more play into your life.
And what I've done, there was a period where when friends would come and talk about things, I purposely said, don't let me give you advice. If I start telling you how to fix things, tell me off. Because it was just so instinctive.
Melissa Hague (27:10.254)
Absolutely, absolutely. That's the classic learned behaviour, isn't it? We've become very skilled at it and it feels natural to us, but actually it's something that we've learnt to do or learnt to be good at.
Febronia (27:23.589)
And I love what you're saying about the innate capacity of human beings, the wisdom we have in our brains and body to self-right or self-correct, auto-correct. And it's so wonderful when individuals are guided and they go, I know what I need to do. It's just come to me, that flash of inspiration. It's wonderful to see. But we can help courageously get them there without doing all the work.
Melissa Hague (27:43.873)
Absolutely.
Melissa Hague (27:49.742)
Yes, definitely, definitely. And I mean, you mentioned Claire Pedrick, just a moment ago, and you know, had talking about the dance of coaching and so on. And, and we were actually met while we'd already connected, but we met on a session, didn't we, that Claire was running? Yes, yeah. And
Febronia (28:08.635)
It was a masterclass, wasn't it?
Melissa Hague (28:13.654)
It was something that came up there, which I know we sort of thought we might talk about, but actually it has come in because I'm thinking about coming back, sort of going backwards a little bit, Feb, if that's okay. I'm thinking a little bit about this whole idea of being, you know, executive leadership coach with your background, lots of experience, very successful, high performer, blah, blah, blah. And then you've kind of got these executive leaders that you're working with. And one of the things that we spoke about in that masterclass was around
Febronia (28:24.379)
That's perfectly fine, yeah.
Melissa Hague (28:43.406)
power really, and how power shows up in coaching. And I'm again, I kind of wonder from your experience, where you've come from, where you are now and the kind of clients that you're working with, where does what do you think about?
Febronia (28:54.252)
This is interesting and it's still very much a work in progress because in the roles I have within marketing, I'm partnering and supporting or co-piloting some of these leaders on big strategic initiatives. And sometimes you might have a conflict, a positive conflict, but a conflict of how you're interpreting the information, the data. So you need to have a bit of power and you need to have a bit of power up to debate. So you need that.
Melissa Hague (29:19.427)
Yeah.
Febronia (29:25.775)
But in a coaching situation, you don't want to appear as the person who knows it all, who has all the answers. So the de-powering was very difficult for me initially, because I wanted to show that, you know, I was up to the job. I could help coach them. I knew what they were going through. And then it was getting me into situations where I was coaching okay, but I recognized the coaching could be better if I just let go.
Melissa Hague (29:55.054)
Mm.
Febronia (29:55.354)
Let go of that power struggle. You have nothing to prove. You're there just to provide positive regard, hold a space and guide, you know, guide the conversation. But where the power comes in is the incisive questioning that we do and how we use the frameworks moment to moment. So when I recognized I didn't need to take that marketing power into the coaching session, you know, some of it was implicit because they know you, they know
Melissa Hague (30:05.102)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (30:20.504)
Mm.
Febronia (30:24.633)
what you've achieved. But that letting go, when I managed to do it, it was a revelation.
And I purposely dress down in coaching. You some coaches are very smartly dressed. I purposely dress down because it depowers automatically.
Melissa Hague (30:40.727)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so much isn't there about what we transmit, knowingly and unknowingly, and externally what we're transmitting, but of course, our bodies are transmitting too, for sure. And I think that that power thing is an interesting because many of us are aware of, I don't know, I kind of want to say like the more obvious types of power where
know, dress isn't a good example. maybe there's the organization has uniforms, you know, there's there's lots of dress that can can lead into power. Absolutely. And, know, and then of course, there's the classic kind of job title, you know, status, those kind of role power. But I think there's so there's so many different forms of power because
Febronia (31:17.711)
Yes, yeah, casual dress and so on.
Melissa Hague (31:36.934)
And we're not always aware of them. And so we either use them without knowing or we don't kind of almost don't associate with them. Because it's interesting to me there that you described, you know, some of the things that we do like incisive questioning. You know, there's an element of power in that.
Febronia (31:54.908)
But it's ethical power. That's the difference. And I like to think I come into coaching with gravitas. Like I explain how we're going to set up the process, that I'm not going to give advice, I'm not there to fix, that we're there to work together in partnership. So that is depowering and it's setting the stage for an equal partnership. But at some point, they do look at you and sometimes they will say, what do you think and invite you to
give some thoughts and I'll kind of say, I'll tell you what I think at the end, but for now, what would you like me to think? So bounce it back. But the more you relinquish that power, the deeper the work that the individual does. But I do like to think gravitas is important because they're paying you for a service. You want to add value, whether that's explicit or implicit. And that's OK. It makes us do a good job.
Melissa Hague (32:30.722)
Yeah, lovely. Lovely. Yeah.
Febronia (32:53.615)
but it shouldn't be the foundation of that power relationship. It should be gravitas that you know what you're doing, but you're not there looking down on the coachee.
Melissa Hague (33:06.542)
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. So it's it's it's um, so Renee Brown talks about power and she says, obviously, there are different ways of using power. So this is power over, which is the way we we really don't want to be using power. But there's also power with power to and power within. I think that's a really interesting concept, because that kind of, you know, giving power to so empowering, would
Febronia (33:17.263)
Mm. Yeah.
Febronia (33:29.039)
Mmm.
Febronia (33:35.105)
Empowering, yeah.
Melissa Hague (33:36.106)
Yeah, exactly your client. There's also power with so that that the relationship and how do we exchange and work and use our power together. And then there's also recognizing the power you have within yourself, both the client recognizing that but also you as the coachee, as the coach, right? I have power within me, I have power to hold space, and to listen and to you know, so
Febronia (33:42.799)
that empathy as well.
Febronia (33:57.183)
and
Melissa Hague (34:04.678)
There's this is so interesting, I think that we often associate power with, you know, inequality and and and and not being a good thing. But actually, there are ways I think there are ways that we can use power effectively. And I love this idea came out in that masterclass, didn't it have D powering? Yeah, absolutely. And actually being a can a continuum maybe or a swing, I'm thinking of sort of swinging pendulum maybe.
Febronia (34:18.392)
and
Febronia (34:21.933)
Yes, to repow.
Febronia (34:30.425)
And maybe you even need to contract about it because if you're going to coach a CEO, maybe they expect a certain amount of power up. However, because of the depth of insight and knowledge we have on psychology, the thing that really is important to me is to use power ethically because, you know, we've all heard stories of how it's used in ethically.
and it can do a lot of damage, mind games and so on and so forth, codependency. We don't want any of that in our coaching.
Melissa Hague (35:03.022)
No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think sadly, know, misuse of power, you know, we see it, we see that a lot in the world, but, know, sadly, we do see some misuse of power in the coaching profession as well. And like you say, it's not ethical. It's not practice. And no, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So I'm fed, I'm really curious now because you kind of, you shared at the beginning, you know, your, your background, kind of Henley two and a half years in.
Febronia (35:10.8)
Hmm.
Febronia (35:16.992)
No, it's in nobody's favour.
Melissa Hague (35:32.652)
really kind of developing and becoming as right? So what's your call to courage now as a coach? What are you leaning into in the future?
Febronia (35:35.652)
becoming, yeah.
Febronia (35:46.95)
Well, I've continued to do my self development quite rigorously and it's given me a lot of pleasure. And I think I'm not sure, did you attend the ICF course on transitions that they did recently? They did a wonderful series. Yeah, there was about eight different sessions with some big famous coaching names and it was really inspiring. So that kind of set me up well at the start of the year.
Melissa Hague (35:57.62)
No. They did a whole series, didn't they? Yeah.
Febronia (36:12.441)
I've just had the courage to reposition my coaching. I always said I wasn't going to niche, but then I found myself, you know, working with high performers and giving me a bit more clarity around where I can best bring value and service to leadership. So that's been quite exciting. And I don't really know what the next part of this year is going to bring. I hope that just a bit more revelation and a bit more.
Melissa Hague (36:18.199)
Right?
Febronia (36:39.725)
stepping into this positioning and bringing it to life.
Melissa Hague (36:43.138)
Yeah, or the, Tanisha or not Tanisha?
Febronia (36:46.393)
Tanisha or not Tanisha? I mean, it's all an evolution. But I'm mesmerised by these people who claim to have it all nailed in six weeks, know, and posts that I read were, you know, all queued us to them. But it's taken me, yeah, two and a half years to even get to a point where I feel comfortable with the people. I had a loose positioning before, which was more generic, and I was focusing more on the marketing industry. But now I've branched out to, you know, corporate leaders.
from any sector because I don't think I need to limit the sector. But it's taken me two and a half years to grow the confidence courageously to think, yeah, this is where I'm going. And then at some point we'll branch into the group and corporate coaching. But at the moment, I'm still enjoying the learning from coaching one to one.
Melissa Hague (37:37.686)
Yeah. And that and it is a two way learning, isn't it every new client, I learned something new from right or they bring something that I haven't experienced before. don't know one client is the same. No one session is the same. That's part of the joy of it. And I think that I'm the same as you, Fab. I resisted niching. Then I niched and
Febronia (37:47.419)
No.
Melissa Hague (38:00.534)
decided after while, didn't really like that niche, that wasn't the right niche for me. And for me, it's been a journey towards, because of why I left employment and set my mind, it was about doing more of the work that I love and less of the work that I don't. And so actually, my niche is about what brings me joy. And that's the work I want to do. And that's these are the people I want to work with. But you're right, it took me several years. I mean, it wasn't an open-ended thing.
Febronia (38:09.861)
Thank
Febronia (38:15.984)
Yes.
Febronia (38:25.049)
Yeah, it's a journey. No, and I also I offer coaching in different languages because of my degree in languages. And with that will come different learnings because you know, different cultures work in different ways. So all these topics we've studied at Henley and looked at with Claire Pedrick, how does the power differential play out with a French coachee or with an Italian CEO?
You know, very different, very different ball games. So that learning, if we're open and courageous, it continues. so much to evolve and develop from. Quite excited about all of that. I mean, at some point I will move into more coaching and less marketing, but at the moment I'm a feat in both camps. So I think I'm setting up the coaching definitely from, you know, a time in the future when I can enjoy it more full time, but that time is not quite here yet.
Melissa Hague (38:54.83)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (39:10.732)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (39:20.45)
Yeah, no, absolutely. No, no, I definitely recognize that. And yeah, I have a portfolio business for sure. You know, there's coaching is a big chunk of it, but it's a portfolio business, definitely. And I kept a foot in employment for a while and, you know, I've done all of that. So yeah, absolutely.
Febronia (39:34.479)
Yes.
Yeah, because you're still enjoying what you're doing from your original career. Also, I do a lot of mentoring in my spare time as a volunteer for universities and also the MCC. So there's lots of things that I'm interested in developing. It's exciting. I didn't think that in my 50s, I'd be so energized. I thought I'd be slowing down.
Melissa Hague (39:57.902)
So, absolutely. Yeah, this is this mid-life or second stage life, isn't it, that everyone seems to be talking about.
Febronia (40:05.852)
And I remember my niece saying, you should go back to university. And I was like, you're crazy.
Here I am.
Melissa Hague (40:17.304)
brilliant, brilliant. And okay, so let's let's draw this to a close, Fab. So the question I'd love to ask you, I asked nearly all of my guests is, what's the one thing that you think every coach should know about courage?
Febronia (40:34.297)
Be truly courageous. You need to fight your own fears. So you need to know yourself, you need to know your strengths, but you need to know your limits and weaknesses and why you're not going there and what's holding you back. Because how can we encourage change and empowerment in others if we can't do it within ourselves first?
Melissa Hague (40:57.902)
Yeah, I mean, I love that I'm the whole kind of knowing yourself, you know, and knowing yourself, all of yourself, you know, the bits you like.
Febronia (41:08.315)
The good and the bits you don't like so much too.
Melissa Hague (41:11.47)
Absolutely, absolutely. It does take courage to do the inner work, know, the self work, whatever label we want to give itself awareness, whatever. But I think for coaches, it's an integral, it's critical, right? It's a critical part of the work for sure. But it needs, as you quite rightly say, it requires courage, doesn't it?
Febronia (41:30.639)
And also studying, you know, topics around psychology, you know, looking at compassionate coaching, looking at trauma, looking at, you know, some of these frameworks that come from the therapeutic context. You know, you're not applying them. We're not therapists, but they're very helpful in understanding the human condition. And at the end of the day, we're just another human being talking to another.
human being and I know Claire says this a lot so I have to give her credit here but it's just a conversation between two human beings and where there's great respect and the wanting them to do things well and succeed it's so powerful because some people have never had that validation in real life.
Melissa Hague (42:15.566)
Absolutely, absolutely. Someone who I mean, someone who's going to sit and listen really truly listen to what you're saying. And, you know, and show you empathy and ask you questions. I mean, that doesn't happen that often. You know, in our our everyday lives and certainly for in your your coaching space, right in the leadership space. just don't exist. Yeah, it doesn't exist. And so coaching
Febronia (42:38.363)
There's no time for those conversations.
Melissa Hague (42:44.138)
is so powerful. So many of my clients will say to me, the most, you know, the most important thing, the most powerful thing for them about, you know, going through a coaching program is that they get 90 minutes once a month or how often they are right. That's just about them, where they can slow down, where they can talk as much or as little as they want to, you know, this whole and the free the the the freedom, the sense of freedom.
Febronia (42:57.467)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (43:11.276)
the freeing-ness of it, if you like, that that gives them because they don't get it anywhere else.
Febronia (43:16.411)
A few of my neighbours know that I'm a coach and yesterday I was sat outside and one came up for conversation. I won't go into the details, but they shared something quite deep and I just said, I have no words, I have no words, but I do feel what you went through and I do hear you and I see you and I'm here for you. And it was an emotional moment for that person because that's all they needed to hear that somebody was there for them.
Melissa Hague (43:44.536)
Yeah.
Febronia (43:45.069)
And it's just the power of connection when two human beings come together when it's nervous system plus nervous system and that co-regulation and that support. It is truly magical.
Melissa Hague (43:57.196)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's the joy. That's the joy for me. That's why we that's why I coach for sure for that connection. Yeah, lovely. Feb, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I'm always I'm always really conscious when when I'm recording these because I just get into conversation mode and
Febronia (44:08.72)
It's been a joy, I could go on all day!
Febronia (44:18.062)
It's been lovely.
Melissa Hague (44:19.214)
talk all day. So but it's been really lovely and thank you for sharing so much of your journey and where you're at in your journey because I know it will resonate with a lot of people who are listening to the podcast. So I appreciate you and I appreciate you being here. So thank you.
Febronia (44:27.643)
Thank
Febronia (44:32.037)
Thank you. It's been a wonderful conversation and it's been lovely to hear of your experiences and your thoughts following that shared course that we did. Thank you, Melissa. I'm wishing you all the best with your podcast and business.
Melissa Hague (44:43.608)
Thank you and you too, Feb. Take good care.
Febronia (44:45.541)
Thank you.