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Send us Fan Mail What if the fastest way to restore hope is as simple as a precise touch and the words, “Do you mean here or here?” That moment of validation sits at the center of this conversation with Doug Nelson, founder of Precision Neuromuscular Therapy, as we explore how specificity, feedback, and presence transform stubborn pain into possibility. We start with Doug’s pivot from a music career to manual therapy, then dig into why hands-on work can create rapid change that inspires long-...
What if the fastest way to restore hope is as simple as a precise touch and the words, “Do you mean here or here?” That moment of validation sits at the center of this conversation with Doug Nelson, founder of Precision Neuromuscular Therapy, as we explore how specificity, feedback, and presence transform stubborn pain into possibility.
We start with Doug’s pivot from a music career to manual therapy, then dig into why hands-on work can create rapid change that inspires long-term self-care. Doug shares the hard truth about modern healthcare’s drift from palpation to imaging, and why replicating a client’s symptoms with skilled touch cuts through doubt and accelerates trust. We contrast general relaxation with targeted problem-solving, unpack mislabels like plantar fasciitis, and explain the habit of trying to falsify your own hypothesis—because scientific humility makes treatment smarter.
If you’ve felt burnout nibbling at your craft, this is your reset. Depth is the antidote. Revisit anatomy, question what you “know,” and design sessions that collect real feedback in real time. Mission outlasts goals; results beat marketing; and curiosity builds careers that endure. Subscribe, share with a colleague who needs the spark, and leave a review with one change you’ll bring to your next session.
RESOURCES
More about Douglas Nelson: https://www.bodyworkassociates.com/
Precision Neuromuscular Therapy: https://www.pnmt.org/
This is Soma Rising: Conversations for a Conscious Future —where health, wealth, love, and purpose flow together on the Golden Path of alignment. Learn more at somatribe.org
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Website: soma-massage.net
Instagram: @somawellness.center or @tabitharmacdonald
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Tabitha MacDonald is an Intuitive Coach and Bodyworker committed to helping people overcome pain fast so they can experience the love, success, freedom, and fulfillment they deserve.
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Join Tabitha MacDonald, intuitive coach, bodyworker, and transformation expert, as we explore the path of the heart — the Golden Path — where health, wealth, love, and purpose flow together as one radiant field of creation.
Each episode invites you to release the ego’s grip and rise into the luminous potential of your soul — where love feels safe, intuition leads, freedom is your birthright, and peace is natural.
Through powerful conversations, personal stories, and Superconscious insights, we bridge the worlds of neuroscience, intuition, and energy healing to help you align your body, mind, and soul with your Higher Self.
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SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome.
My name is Tabitha McDonald, and
I am so excited to have one of
my mentors and massage heroes on
the Summerflow podcast today.
Welcome Doug Nelson.
He is the founder of uh PNMT
Northwest, or is it NMT Mid
Midwest?
SPEAKER_01: Midwest.
Precision Neuromuscular Therapy
Incorporated.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
And he also owns the is it NMT
Midwest Clinic in Champion,
Illinois?
SPEAKER_01: Actually, it's Body
Work Associates with the name of
the clinic.
SPEAKER_03: I am failing.
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, it's all
right.
SPEAKER_03: Um, I started
studying with Doug right out of
massage school when I graduated
the second time in the US.
And he came to me by the way of
my friend Brandon.
And um, I'm so grateful that I
got to have you as my mentor in
the beginning of my career
because I think it changed the
trajectory of how I worked.
I actually wanted to work in a
spa until I met you.
And then I was like, oh, we
could we could do better.
So um, yeah.
So that's so I would um love
just to like hear a little bit
about you and how you got into
massage and um what you do now
for the world of body work.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
So this is my well, I uh I can't
can't do the math really
quickly, but I I started in uh
1978, actually.
So that's uh that's been a while
actually doing this work.
And you know, Tabitha, the
interesting thing for me is I
originally got into this,
started with music, and then I I
was it was pretty clear to me
that that was not going to be my
career.
That was painful because I
everything was going that way,
and and my friends all went on
to do amazing things, but I knew
for me personally that wasn't
gonna happen.
And um, so I ended up um Can I
ask why?
SPEAKER_03: How did you figure
how did you know?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my friends who
were there was a level of
passion, commitment, this deep,
deep sense of purpose that I saw
in them that at a level inside I
knew I didn't have.
And uh, and that was really
tough to see something in them
that I knew I did not possess.
Um, even though I was, you know,
trying and making an effort, but
deep down inside I knew that's
not gonna, that's not who I am.
And and that what's harder, it's
hard to make that decision.
It's even harder when your
little tribe is all going that
way.
And and then for me, realizing I
can't go with them.
SPEAKER_03: And uh so um what I
ended up doing is very
self-reflective for a young man.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Um yeah, uh all I can think of
is just it was painful.
So um, so I ended up uh like I
still had to eat and like pay
the rent and stuff.
So I ended up teaching people
how to play.
That the my instrument at the
time was the guitar, and uh, so
I taught lots of lessons.
And what I saw was that people
knew what to do, they just
couldn't execute it, right?
And so that was a somatic thing.
I had gotten interested in um uh
yoga and eastern philosophy and
that sort of thing.
So I ended up studying yoga for
a long time in a residential uh
setting, uh, spent a year and a
half there, and um, and met
someone who uh also moved in who
had just finished the his
massage therapy training, and
that's how I got uh introduced
to it.
And what I saw then is is really
what motivates me now, which is
that through you know many
disciplines, yoga is one
example, like you can do
tremendous self-care, right?
But that takes time, and with
hands-on approaches, we can
create change really fast, and
and and that gives people hope.
You you need to do the other
things as a to to to sustain
things, and that's great.
But if you don't hope that
change is possible, you're
probably not gonna do that.
And that's when I saw the power
and the promise of manual
approaches.
Um, it's a little hard to look
back over so many years ago and
think, did I really fully
understand that?
Um, so I'm, you know, but I I
think so.
Um I was just on fire with the
idea that that um that you could
do so much with the human hand.
And what's also interesting
about that is after a couple of
years, I thought I should go on
and do some sort of, you know,
something else.
And uh in terms of more
education, become a physical
therapist.
Well, at the time, this was back
then, physical therapists did
not do any kind of manual stuff.
That was perceived as like, oh,
we used to do that, we don't do
that anymore.
We have new cool stuff to do.
And um, so that uh that was a
bit of a yeah, actually, I tried
to go to school, but several
deans just told me that they
would never be able to train the
massage therapy part of that out
of me.
And you know, I didn't realize
it was a deficit.
SPEAKER_03: Um I would I would
have taken that as a compliment,
but I guess a different
perspective.
SPEAKER_01: Wow, really?
You know, and again, you have to
remember the time period this
was, and and people didn't think
uh a lot of massage therapy at
the time, uh as you could
imagine.
I mean, this is you know early
80s, so um, yeah, a little
different context then, and um,
but I I was just maybe uh too
naive to even think that this
could fail.
Or I, you know, I just pushed
along and envisioned something
that I hope to have happen.
Um, you know, and um so off, you
know, off I went.
And um, you know, that that's
how everything in a way began.
SPEAKER_03: I love I love that
because I just hear absolute
soul alignment, like kind of
like your higher self was like,
nope, you you're that's the
wrong path.
We're gonna make sure people
slap you off that course and and
on the right one.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Because I thought
about being a physical therapist
too after a while, and then I
thought, why?
I my clients always say that
they get better results and
certain things with what I do.
Why would I trade what I do for
something different?
Like when it works.
SPEAKER_01: So um Yeah, you
know, I just got a really big
award from the University of
Illinois, and um what's
interesting is I didn't go to
the U.
I didn't uh, you know, um I
didn't finish college actually.
Once I found this, I never did
anything else.
And and that came up like why
didn't you pursue uh, you know,
especially, I don't know, with
my curiosity, whatever.
And and uh and the answer is any
pathway forward for me would
have taken me away from hands-on
work.
Whatever the discipline,
whatever the pathway, I knew
that the thing that I was most
passionate about is using my
hands to to make a difference.
And uh I just was unwilling to
pursue anything else that that
would take me away from that.
All those things are all great,
but the thing that's exceedingly
rare is someone with the manual
skills to truly make a
difference.
And and as evidenced by the
number of people that I see
every week when I see a new
person and they complain of
something they've had for an
extended period of time, um,
sometimes years, you know,
somebody just last week, two
years.
And and the question I often ask
them is in all that time, did
anyone actually touch it?
And the answer is no.
And then it's like, does that
seem weird to you?
It's like even the patient will
say, yeah, you know, like, wow,
that is wild.
How did we get to a place where
we don't even do that in
healthcare?
Um, and it's it's very
difficult.
A friend of mine used to teach
um manual uh physical medicine,
uh physical examination, it's
the word I'm looking for at the
med school.
Um, there's very little interest
in it now because the idea is,
you know, we're just gonna image
it anyway.
So what's the point?
You know?
Um my goodness.
Um, you know, like on so many
levels and for so many reasons,
palpation makes a difference, if
nothing else, to validate the
experience of the patient.
Like, you know, just to say to
that person, when you say it
hurts, do you mean here or here?
Right?
SPEAKER_03: The look on their
face is usually like I don't
even know how to describe it.
It's just absolute valid
validation relief.
Like, like I'm not making it up.
That's exactly what thinking.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
Yeah, and this is you know, it's
interesting.
I I think it was last year or
earlier this year, it all runs
together.
But um, I got to, I was the
keynote speaker at a conference
uh for Oxford University in
England, and and it was about
validation, that was the topic.
And you know, we're lucky
because you know, you can talk
about validation as this
construct and this idea, but
when somebody when I can put my
finger and replicate somebody's
symptoms, very little discussion
needs to happen, right?
I mean, their brain goes, Oh,
like, whoa, right.
I mean, I I can't be making this
up if this guy can put his
finger on it and then recreate
the symptoms.
SPEAKER_03: If I think those
things are connected, um
massively, it's so valuable for
someone's healing journey
because then they get out of the
loop of I have to try to prove
that this pain is real because
people are telling me it's not.
And like when you can say yes,
no, it's very real, and then you
replicate it.
There, I think that is the
opening to the body's ability to
heal because it pulls them out
of that loop of I'm not crazy,
the pain is there, I can feel
it.
So and I that to me is like
ground zero for for building
rapport with someone and getting
them to heal fast.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
I mean, you know, and it you
know, rapport is in that case,
it's it's very easy, right?
Because you've just um
acknowledged and replicated what
they experience.
If I if I try to communicate to
you what I'm feeling or that I'm
in pain or that I'm struggling
with something, I never really
know.
Like, do you really understand
what I'm trying to tell you?
But if I put my finger on it and
replicate this like weird pain
that you feel, there's no
question, right?
It isn't about gosh, I'm not
really sure.
The person, that nervous system
is very sure that not only is it
real, but that I, as a
practitioner, can put my finger
on it, right?
And and that means, yes, I do
understand.
SPEAKER_03: There's something
very powerful about touch.
And it's um to me, it's
interesting because I'm building
like this online part of my
business.
Like it's part of my soul's
calling is to bring more
meditation and things to people
to help heal pain and to help
resolve, you know, um,
neuroplastic pain and things
like that.
But the touching, the being in
the clinic space with another
human being is just the part I'm
unwilling to leave behind
because I think as a
practitioner, I get so much from
it.
Like for me, I feel so much
connection and um humbleness to
be with people as they go
through the journey of pain and
also growth and just absolute
profound, like I I don't even
know how to describe it, other
than like you see miracles and
magic in motion when you can get
someone out of that state into
to a place of hope.
And like, like you said, and
then also to then feeling good
again, like in their bodies and
they can live.
SPEAKER_01: I think that's yeah,
I think it's an important point.
And I I don't want to lose the
moment.
Um I you know, I just did a
podcast a little bit ago uh on
bidirectionality.
And if I if I'm telling you now
that, so I read this really cool
research study uh in massage
therapy, you immediately you
would be thinking, oh, and what
did they study?
What happened to the person on
the table?
But I think it would be very
interesting, instead of wiring
up the person on the table with
biomarkers, wire up the
therapist.
Um, because I think one of the
things, one of the untold
stories in our profession is how
good this profession is for us
as therapists, in in so many
ways.
Um maybe I shouldn't say this,
but so so many times in my
practice, I will uh come inside
the the door into my clinic
room, close the door, and put
both hands on the door and tell
my client, I'm so happy you're
here, you know, and this is
totally about me.
Because once I close that door,
nobody can get to me, right?
Like all the world, it's all out
there, and it's just you and I.
And now here we go, right?
And what a gift, right?
Yeah, and then that total focus
to do the work well demands your
absolute complete focus on that
person, and which also means all
the stuff, right?
The world and whatever is going
on in your head has to exit the
room, and it is the holy space
of anything else, anything about
me in that room is getting in
the way of being fully present
for that person, and um, I just
relish that.
And um, and I think it it's
something that we don't talk
about enough.
And I do think if we had a
research study that we wired up
the therapist with the uh a
multitude of biomarkers, I think
you'd see how beneficial that
is.
And that's at one level.
SPEAKER_03: Sorry to continue,
but no, that's actually like
have you read Lynn McTaggart's
work, The Power of Eight?
They have they had one person in
the center of a healing circle
and eight around them, setting
the intention for the person in
the center of the circle to
heal.
Guess who got more healing?
It was the people setting the
intention, yeah, sending the
energy, not the person receiving
it.
So it that that just goes along
there.
I believe she did do research on
it.
I'd have to look it up.
I could send it if I find it.
But um, they have researched
that the people who who actually
facilitate receive some kind of
benefit in return that is
immeasurable, in my opinion.
Uh, because you're absolutely
right, to be present with
someone and to have the honor.
I always think of it like an
honor to walk someone through
the journey of recovery is to me
just like an absolute gift.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
And it is um just to be with
someone else and um, you know a
couple of things.
One to to that point and
personally and professionally,
in terms of being honored,
anybody who's done this long
enough, you must have at some
point attended the memorial
service for a long time client.
And if you sit in that room and
you look around, you realize
that you knew them in a way that
no one in that room knew them.
And almost everything you know,
in that case, you can't tell
anybody, right?
But you know deep in your heart
that that person shared um parts
of them that they shared with no
one else.
Oh my gosh, what an amazing
thing.
And and also for us as people,
you cannot be in relationship
with people in that deep way for
so long and not be changed
yourself in that process as
well.
All right.
And um, so for me to see so many
people who struggle with pain
and to see the courage, to see
their strength in that process,
um, it, you know, those those
are people who inspire me to to
deal with you know things in my
life because I've seen how other
people have done that in there.
So I I do feel it's a deep honor
to be with them.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Yeah.
I I think of one uh client of
mine in particular.
I was I went, she called me when
on her deathbed and asked me to
come and to watch her die
gracefully and to get to be a
part of it and to help ease her
pain.
And just it it was, I realized
we had something unique that
nobody else there had because we
we did three sessions a week.
So, like, you know, we were
close in a way.
I don't know if you get to be
that intimate with most people
in your life.
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think
not.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is a
beautiful gift.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
So it's uh it's a wonderful
thing.
And I think it's just one of the
many stories about the work
itself that I think doesn't get
expressed enough.
And I think those of us who have
done it for a long time, you
know, to convey that to other
people, like that's part of the
richness of the work itself.
It's the richness is in the
relationship.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, oh, so much
so.
That's so true.
I it was funny because I was
losing um some of that
appreciation for that, and I was
taking a loamy loamy class
because I wanted to do something
easy and flowy, and I was like,
I just want to do something
different.
And there was an executive from
eBay there, and I looked at
Daniel, who was one of my
colleagues, and I said, We have
his dream job, Daniel.
Like we have this man is like
envious of our career, and he is
like, he was like exec at eBay,
and I'm like, we don't
appreciate what we get to do for
a living enough.
Like that it was a big reset for
me.
Um and recalibration of
appreciation of what we get to
do.
SPEAKER_00: So very cool.
SPEAKER_03: I can relate to that
experience.
It was like, oh man, there's
people who I remember dreaming
about being a massage therapist
when I worked in the back end of
the school, going, oh, I should
go back to school and get my
license in the States because I
trained in England.
And I was like, I should I but
it I was putting it off and I
was like, yeah, I didn't um I
think you it you do, you get
into like running the business
or the other side of things, and
then you forget to slow down and
just appreciate the gifts of it
that we get to experience.
So I love that reminder.
And I hope all new massage
therapists or anyone considering
going into the field, because I
talk to a lot of people who want
to go into healthcare, and I'm
like, how have you considered
massage?
Like, I actually think that
there's a huge demand for it.
Um, especially well-trained and
committed massage therapists, I
think that they're needed right
now in the world more than ever,
anytime, because we have this
epidemic of pain that just is
not resolving.
And I feel like we have an
important role to play in that
conversation and in the process
of helping get people out of
pain it very affordably as well.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
You know, it um on so many
levels.
Um a while ago, um I had the
opportunity to represent this
field at a national conference.
And and honestly, I mean the
heads of uh United Healthcare,
Blue Cross Blue Shield, the BA,
like I mean the who's who of
healthcare was all sitting at
the table.
And and based on my history, um,
you know, uh in those early
years, I always felt like I had
to defend the work and make the
case for the.
So, of course, in this high
pressure environment, I'm
thinking, I'm gonna wear that,
you know, I'm gonna bring that
flag, and by God, I'm gonna, and
I've got I'm armed with all
this, you know, research.
And boy, how ridiculous was
that.
Because um what I heard from all
those people from the get-go is
when should we, how should we,
um, in what context, uh, for
what conditions, never should we
even consider massage there?
That wasn't in the conversation
at all.
It just looped right over that.
And I thought, I I think I'm
gonna put the flag away and try
to hide it.
Um, I feel really embarrassed,
and I'll probably put the armor
and take that off.
And uh, like, wow, that's where
we have come as a profession.
Um, and I see that in my own
community.
You know, I'm my community is
120,000 people.
Um but um we see a significant
percentage of the community.
The number of physician
referrals we got is really
impressive.
And um so and and and again, um
to for a massage therapist to be
recognized by the university,
um, you know, and multiple
things, um, I've never seen the
public acceptance the way it is.
I've never seen the medical
acceptance uh in that world, the
healthcare acceptance.
So the the thing that I worry
about is all those things are
true.
And and we know the if you look
at the data, um, you know, the
incidence of musculoskeletal
pain, 123% in the last 30 years,
projected another 115 in the
next 30 years, increasing
constantly.
The thing I would say to our own
profession is, are we ready for
this?
And and I I think the answer is
I don't think so.
Um because the time is now, our
moment is now, now is the time
to step forward into that space
to really serve in in in a
meaningful way like has never
been possible before.
The windows open, but are are we
ready to to go through that?
Yeah, I don't know.
Uh I I have my doubts, but um,
we'll see.
SPEAKER_03: I have I have my
doubts.
I I um it's funny because people
will say to me, I would never
have known that you were here if
my friend hadn't have told me.
And it took them a lot of
convincing to get me to come
here.
And I'm like, yeah, I'm not
really good at marketing because
I'm just very referral-based.
And I don't want to get
overwhelmed with massage clients
because I'm trying to build out
my uh online revenue stream and
just things that I've been
trying, like developing in um
the mind body world.
And um it's it's interesting
because I then I think I it is
my responsibility actually to
start communicating more clearly
to people what's possible.
Um, that's less expensive and
more effective.
Like um, you know, especially
because people come in and I
hear them all over the place
complaining about the cost of
healthcare and co-pays.
And I'll say, well, you know,
you could treat this for like
three visits with me.
It'll cost you less than$500, or
you could continue to pay$20,000
a year in co-pays or whatever
and still continue to be in
pain.
But getting them to understand
that is really challenging
because the healthcare thing is
so embedded in their minds where
it's like, well, if it's not
covered by insurance, because we
don't work with health
insurance, um, then I won't,
then it must not be effective,
or you know, I can't do it's
something, you know.
And I've had people come in and
they said, my doctor wouldn't
treat this, even though this was
the cause of this, because it
wasn't coded correctly.
And I'm like, when did we get to
that place in healthcare where
if the code isn't matching,
we're not treating the root
cause of the problem?
Like it just didn't make sense
to me.
And it's funny because I really
was questioning if it's a fight
or a battle I really wanted to
be in the arena of.
Because it just seemed um maybe
like when I wasn't really didn't
have the fire to fight like
until I talked to you.
And then I'm like, oh no, maybe
I could find the fire on that
one.
I don't, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01: But you know, when
we at our clinic, um, I think we
saw last year 18,000 sessions,
something like that.
That doesn't include that's only
in the office stuff.
That doesn't include our work
with um the university and
athletes and stuff like that.
So we're seeing a ton of
sessions, right?
Um, we do almost no marketing um
per se.
Um our our marketing strategy is
based around one thing, two
words really get results.
You know?
SPEAKER_03: Um you taught me
that when I first started my
business.
You said best marketing, you
said those that exact thing, and
I've I've followed that rule um
ever since I opened my clinic.
And I for myself haven't had to
do a lot of marketing until I
brought people in and then I had
to market them.
And I was like, oh, now I have
to learn other marketing.
But um, but yeah, that was
always my philosophy.
Thanks to you.
And I think that that's true for
most businesses, but um really
good advice.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's
important.
I mean, everything else, I mean
I I I one gets tired of clever
arguments and flashy things and
loud voices.
Um, none of that impresses me.
What impresses me most is
somebody who can just deliver
the goods, you know?
And and if you do that
consistently, believe me,
especially in the world of pain,
where so many people know
somebody else who's also
struggling with something
similar that they have, um, that
word spreads really fast.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
Uh most people who find me,
they're like, I was at a party
and I was complaining about my
back, and this guy walked up to
me and he goes, I got a girl.
I got a caller.
So it's um yeah, they're yeah,
anytime someone sees pain, then
they're like, they think they
think of me.
SPEAKER_01: Like I would have
been known for that.
Like, yeah, well, actually,
that's that's unfortunately.
One guy said to me this was uh
like uh I don't know, a few a
few years ago, but he said, So
you've been in town a long time,
right?
I'm like, yeah.
And and and it was a uh sciatic
issue, and he said, So you treat
a lot of this?
And like, he yeah.
He said, Did you ever think that
for so many people in this town,
the when the moment they have a
pain in the butt, you're the
first name that comes to mind.
It's like, you know, I've never
thought about it that way, and I
I'm happy not to think about it
in that way anymore.
Um, it's a pretty funny turn on
that.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's
hilarious.
Professional pain in the butt
solver.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
It's first first thought that
comes up like, wait a minute, I
don't know, hold on there.
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that is,
yep, nope, that's true.
Anytime, like someone I see
somebody, it's hard to be
someone who can see pain
everywhere and exist.
Like I go to the gym and I'm
just like, I can't, I can't
look.
I'm gonna I'm gonna stand
around.
No, and it's hard for me to keep
my mouth shut and not be like, I
could help you with that knee
pain and take me 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, hard to
watch, but it's difficult now.
I you know, I find myself being
very um kind of under the radar
just because you know, practice
is so overwhelmed.
And and and really we have 22
therapists, and they're all just
it's very difficult because
there are so many people who
need our services, but we just
you know, we can barely handle
what we have in front of us.
And but that you know, that's
another thing, just the the
thing of going the transition
from being an individual
practitioner to then, you know,
my own office grew in a I I
started it in 1982 here in
Champaign, and it grew in a very
just organic way.
Um, there was never a five-year
plan.
Uh, it just kept adding more
people and more people and more
people.
And um, and you know, it's
interesting how that's developed
now.
And and also it it's also
interesting as we began to more
clearly define and we're always
moving toward a more perfect
union, uh, you know, like who
are we really and where do we
fit in the you know, the
ecosystem of of our community?
And also, as there are other
practitioners out there who are
also massage therapists, there
are so many different ways to
practice, and you know, they're
all valid as long as it's the
right thing for the right reason
at the right time, done in the
right way.
Uh, other than that, it's pretty
straight ahead.
SPEAKER_03: That is the best.
I I want to talk about that for
a minute because people will
come in all the time, and I'm
like, if you use the wrong
process on the on the right
process.
It's not gonna work.
Like it's or the right process
on the wrong problem.
It's just not gonna work.
I had a lady come in from Hawaii
and she had plantar fasciitis.
I was like, can I look at that
for you?
She goes, Oh no, I've been
getting it treated for 15 years,
it's not solvable.
And I'm like, can I just take a
different look?
And it wasn't a plantar
fasciitis history, it was with
her big toe.
And I thought, I was so grateful
for you.
And uh she had some trigger
points in her tibialis
posterior.
And she goes, How did you do
that?
And I was like, There are many
things that have the same
symptoms that if you do one
solution for it, it's actually
going to make it worse.
You cannot count on Dr.
YouTube.
It does not work.
Like you have to have someone
who knows how to look at the
nuances of the thing that you're
struggling with to give you the
right solution and the right
process.
Otherwise, you could be making
it worse.
And then the person thinks that
they're just forever stuck in
pain.
And I think that that's that's
the danger of claiming that
yours is the only solution for
any practitioner, is that you
know, then if it doesn't work
for the way that their problem
is structured, then then they
lose hope in having it be
solved.
Or it's that they say, well,
massage doesn't work.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
And I was just gonna say to to
the first thing, any number
times zero is still not still
zero, right?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So but but in the
second thing, the where we uh uh
excel, I think in some ways, is
people who've who've done kind
of other things in the kind of
traditional medical thing and
then are willing to just, you
know, maybe by reputation or or
talk to somebody, come to see
us.
The one population that we
probably don't see are people
who've seen another massage
therapist because in their head
they think, I tried that and it
didn't work.
You know, it's like that door is
now closed because they feel
like, well, that you know,
listen, that's not gonna help.
I already did that, which is
kind of like saying, you know, I
ate a salad once, I didn't lose
any weight.
So, you know, like what?
SPEAKER_03: I love that analogy,
that's fabulous.
SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to
convince them that you may, but
I don't know what that person
did.
And and I'm pretty sure if you
tell me more, uh I'll we'll find
out, but uh I'm pretty sure
that's not what we're gonna do.
And um, and so you know, and
again, it's very difficult um to
describe for for me when I
describe this work, you know, uh
because you know, you don't want
to sound like, oh, this is
better than other.
It's not better, it's just it's
just different.
It's the level of specificity
that's not always done.
And and again, it's not
appropriate for everything and
every circumstance for God, you
know, like we serve uh, you
know, the subset of people who
have this specific needs that we
can address, right?
But we should do that in a
really good way.
The problem is when when
something that is is probably
not gonna help, let's say, you
know, plant our pain, and you
know, they've had more general
stuff or whatever, it's like,
and then they think, well, you
know, that door's over.
It's like, no, not really.
It's hard to it's hard to make
that case.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I just got a
message from someone I treated
on a Zoom call.
I showed her how to do it on
Zoom, and she said, my
tendonitis has been gone, and it
would that was like 15 years ago
ever since then.
And she'd been to so many
specialists.
And I I just felt like, I don't
think I I do think our work, I
don't know if it's better, I'll
say is the most effective, is
what I like to call it.
Like it's just very effective
for pain and and people who want
to be out of pain.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Like that's you know, and again,
you know, there are there are so
many reasons that people might
seek massage, right?
You've you've worked like a ton
of hours, you're exhausted,
you're whatever.
You know, that might be a
different thing.
So again, it's always the right
approach for the right reason.
Yeah, but I think the thing that
we excel at is the
decision-making process of the
with there are many approaches,
right?
The wisdom is in the choosing.
Like, how do you choose this
versus that?
And and can you articulate it?
And how do you know you're on
the right road?
But more importantly, how do you
know you're on the wrong road?
Um, that's more important.
You know, it's it's one of the
things that I learned when I was
uh deep into the research side
of things and president of the
foundation and that kind of
stuff is you know, the goal of
research isn't to verify, it's
to falsify.
And so for me, when I'm treating
something and uh a person has
anterior shoulder pain, and I
think, oh, I think it could be
once I think I know what it is,
I will work quite hard at trying
to prove myself wrong.
And if I can't prove myself
wrong, I I actually might be
right.
If I try to prove myself, if I
try to prove myself right, I
find my I have no trouble doing
that, you know.
But that's the problem.
But like we can all find a way
to prove ourselves right, but um
it's more important to see,
like, well, if that was true,
what about this?
What about that?
And sometimes I'll do that with
a client.
You know, I'll find something
that is they think, oh my gosh,
that's the place.
And I think, well, that fits
everything that I'm thinking,
and that's the model I'm coming
from.
And then I'll move off of that
and say, what about this?
Like, no, well, how about that?
No, how about this?
And like, you know, you seem
lost because you were on it
before, but now you seem lost.
Like, thank you for saying that,
because uh, I was actually just
trying to deceive you a little
bit.
Does because if the person says,
Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, now
what I know is none of that
stuff was true, and uh, you
know, I'm I'm lost without any
kind of GPS system.
But but if they can tell me,
nah, like, mm-hmm not good, now
now I'm probably right.
And I so I think that's a really
important thing.
And I and you have to be willing
to be proven wrong.
That's the thing.
You have to be willing to fail.
And and that's the thing,
Tabitha, so much about feedback.
You know, the best way not to
get feedback is don't ask.
Yeah, but how dumb is that?
And um, I I think that's that is
uh it so that's we always find
ourselves checking in with
people, even to the, you know
what I'm doing?
Is that the kind of thing you
were hoping for?
Oh people say, you know, I I get
that this approach could be
really effective, but this isn't
something I'm interested in.
It's like totally get it.
You know, it's all good.
And let's see if we can get you
to the right kind of thing that
would really resonate with you.
SPEAKER_03: I have to ask people
that a lot because I'm like,
whoever sent you in, did they
tell you what I do?
Or were you thinking this was
kind of like something you saw
on TV?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're gonna be
able to do that.
SPEAKER_03: They're like, no,
they just said you did something
different.
I'm like, okay, good.
So are you looking for flow and
relaxation and being naked, or
are you ready to get out of
pain?
Let me know because I want to
make sure I have your
expectations clear.
I'm like, if it's both, I might
be able to help you, but it
won't be as effective.
So I just want to be clear about
that so that you you know that
going forward.
So that having those
conversations with people,
setting expectations and also
getting their expectation is so
important.
I think not.
I've seen cut plate people, they
run in and run out of the
treatment room.
And I'm like, how did you even
find out what was going on for
them enough to like create a
treatment plan or to be very
thorough with it?
You barely even ask their name.
Like you've got to like talk to
them and say, you know, you're
having low back pain.
That doesn't mean you're gonna
lay on your belly and get
undressed.
What if they have the set pain?
That might make that, that might
make it worse.
Like we have to think and like
really educate or you taught me
that, like to think and really
think about the client and their
lack of knowledge about their
own body and go, okay, how much
education am I gonna have to
give them so that they know
there's a different way?
Because if they've ever tried
massage, they might have gone in
and it's like, okay, great, go
ahead and get undressed.
You're gonna lay face down under
the blanket.
You could say the speech like an
airline stewardess, right?
Like uh it's very rhythmic.
And to like stop people and say,
I actually need you to sit down
for a minute because I'm gonna
have a conversation with you
first.
They almost get a little shocked
because they're like, Oh, but
we're gonna run out of time.
I'm like, no, no, I I built
plenty of time into our session.
SPEAKER_00: So we're good.
SPEAKER_03: I want to hear about
what you want to do when you're
not hurting.
And also I want to know about
um, you know, what you're where
it's coming up for you, what is
getting in the way of, what
can't you do?
Yeah.
And um, give me the details
because I want to hear them.
You're not whining, you're not
complaining.
I need to hear those complaints
because the can the details help
me understand what's what's
going on for you.
SPEAKER_01: So you know, one of
the memory that comes up for me,
this was years ago, but I'll
never forget it.
Uh, asking this young man
questions, and he said, Can we
just cut the charade?
SPEAKER_00: What?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I
thought.
Like, I'm what?
And he said, Can we just cut the
charade?
I said, What what do you what do
you mean by charade?
And he said, um, I've been to a
bunch of people, you know, a
bunch of different kinds of
practitioners, and also in your
field, everybody asks these
questions, and then they do
whatever the hell they were
gonna do anyway.
So let's just cut the charade
and why don't you just treat me
and let's just see if it works.
You know what?
He's right.
SPEAKER_03: He was right.
SPEAKER_01: He is exactly right.
You know, oftentimes when people
ask those questions, they don't
do anything with the
information, they do what they
were gonna do anyway.
He's exactly right.
Yeah, and I remember just being
stunned and then telling him,
you know, this in a way is not
gonna go well for you because
I'm gonna ask a question, but
every time you answer my
question, I'm gonna tell you
what it means to me, what it
implicates, and what it takes
away.
And and at that point, he just
looked like pain, like, oh, I'm
so sorry I said anything, you
know, like this is gonna slow it
down.
And and uh, but you know, that's
what I did like, oh, so when you
say it hurts when you, but not
when you to me that means uh and
then at one point we were doing
some work, and you know, there
just there was no talking or
anything, and we're probably 10
or 10 minutes into the session,
and he starts laughing.
And I was thinking, I'm
Norwegian, we're not funny, like
what?
And uh I said, what about this
is funny?
And he said, you know, for all
the people I've seen, this is
the first time that somebody
actually did what I asked them
to do, you know, like that I had
some agency in the session.
I mean, the whole process was
just gut-wrenching, and I and we
need to listen to that young
man.
Uh and you know, so uh what I
tell people is don't ask any
question that you're not gonna
do something with the
information.
If you're gonna do whatever you
do, yeah, you know, get their
name and then just do what you
do and hope for the best.
For me personally, I think
clients deserve more than that.
But you know, we don't have like
this checklist of stuff like
that we just kind of go through
the motions.
Like, if I ask a question, it
has meaning to me and it will
direct treatment.
And and I want the client to
know that and experience that.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's I like
it's interesting because as
you're saying that, I'm like,
yeah, when I'm asking questions
in my brain, I actually have a
like a treatment plan that I'm
creating and I'm just doing it
so quickly that like I've gotten
really fast at it.
But like I am formulating a
treatment plan as they're as I'm
asking the questions.
And exactly then I pull from
that as I'm working on them.
And um I never unless someone,
and it's not very common
anymore, comes in and they say,
I just want to relax.
Um I'm usually put them with
someone else because I like to
use my time for people who have
more complex pain.
But um, it's interesting because
I'm like, uh I don't know if
everyone does that.
You're right.
I I think I have had a lot of
work on people where they just
go into their routine and their
flow instead of really thinking
about the pain the person's
having.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, the
problem with that for me is that
um when people I I think it's
not very enriching for the
therapist when you're just doing
the same thing over and over
again.
It's it's um it would, you know,
for me, it it would be like um
it's so mindless in a way.
Like I, you know, I I was gonna
say like telling the same story
over and over again, but that's
that's not really true.
Um because um, so I'm looking
over there at my cello, and uh
for the last six years, um I've
been you know studying the
cello.
And um Yo Yo Ma started playing
the Bach cello suites, the
prelude when he was like four
years old.
And and now at my age, 69, uh he
is still playing the Bach cello
suites, right?
It's the same story, but the
69-year-old sounds very
different, brings a different,
you know, uh background than the
six-year-old, then the the
23-year-old, then the
43-year-old, then the
50-year-old.
You know, it's the same thing,
but through that, you know, it's
the same way.
I I'm still putting my hands on
people in the same way I did
when I was 23.
But it's not the same because I
bring something very different
to that.
And and it's um, it's the the
wisdom, the background, not just
the the surface thing.
So to skate over the surface of
that, to me to me, Tabit, that's
a little bit like being at the
ocean and day after day, and you
look at it and you go, Oh, it's
really pretty.
Oh, that's right.
And then someone goes, Oh, for
God's sakes, and they put a mask
on your face, shove your head in
the water, and then you see,
holy, that it's like a world
under there, right?
All of which I didn't see
because I was just looking at
the surface.
But the Einstein said it best
infinity is not a line extending
through the heavens, but the
variations at any one point in
the line, it's always about
depth, not about verticality and
horizontal thing.
SPEAKER_03: I would agree with
that because I can tell that the
more depth I've brought into
like just being humble with my
own process.
And as I've been working on
integrating more mind, mind
mindfulness practices within the
work that I do, I have studied
like NLP and and how we can
break certain habitual patterns
of pain in the in the brain and
migraines.
I've been working with people
with migraines and using like a
combination of hypnotherapy,
NLP, and then what we do to
break these like lifelong
migraine patterns.
And I'm like, this is like
taking this, it required a
tremendous amount of humility, a
lot of failure and humbleness
and also um curiosity, all of
which I learned from you.
But um to go deep with someone
like like that and say, let me,
let's just walk on this path
together, like you're still
doing a lot of the same
maneuvers, but you're you're
having to go to a new level of
vulnerability with yourself,
with your inner wisdom, right?
And then also with the amount of
you know, education that you've
obtained.
And sometimes I think like I
forget how much studying was
required to get to where where
you are, your constant learner,
right?
I'm a constant learner.
I get bored otherwise.
Like I would, I wouldn't be able
to just flow on a body all day
long and not have any kind of
attainable result with someone.
Like I want, I have that need
for depth in my work.
Like, and I would not be able to
have a career where I didn't
have depth in the amount of
change that I could create for
with a human.
I don't say for, I'm just, I'm
just there to remind them of
what they were their body
already knew how to do.
So I always say I'm just the,
I'm just the I'm just the
facilitator.
I'm just reminding your body
what it already knows how to do.
So um, whether it's in the mind
or, you know, in the emotional
body or in the physical body,
that's just what I do.
So um it's not magic, it's
commitment to education, never
being afraid to fail, um, to get
things wrong.
And then just I think one of the
things that clients always say
is that your ferocious
commitment to the outcome and
you know, just not being afraid
to like call in other
practitioners or, you know,
whoever else is needed, um, so
that the person gets the quality
of care that they need and the
the results.
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Um I think that what
do you because I think I've seen
a lot of therapists like hoard
knowledge in in some clinics, or
I've heard that.
What because you're not your
clinic is 100% not like that.
How do you and my clinic is not
like that?
We're very much givers gain.
Like we have our unique gifts
and we make sure that you know
clients know who the best
therapist is for them.
And then we have like a network
of other professionals that we
refer out to.
How do you build that culture in
your clinic?
Because that's a very um, I
don't think all businesses
operate that way.
Like, how do you how did you
build that?
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's a it's a really good
question.
How you create culture, right?
And sustain that.
Um, you know, I think the North
Star is always what is best for
that person, you know, and that
person meeting the client.
Um, how do we best serve that
person?
And are we the best, you know,
resource for that?
And when I say we, even inside
our office, right, it's like,
well, who's the best person for
that person to see?
Um I think at some point you
have to demonstrate to the the
stakeholders, you know, and all
of that, that that uh everyone
benefits from that kind of
mindset.
Um and I think so there there's
a little bit of a leap of faith
that happens in that.
But I I think once you do, you
realize that um then you get
this kind of team approach.
And I think one of the things
that certainly we are star for
uh in this culture is belonging
and a sense of community and
commitment.
And so I think with the office,
you know, with with that uh, you
know, having a sense of this is
who we are as a people and as an
organization, as a business, um,
and people feeling like they're
proud to be part of that, that's
a really important thing.
And um, you know, what really
when you look at the data just
nationally, if if we're also
hyper connected, you know,
through the through social media
and all that sort of stuff, then
why is the data on loneliness
just jaw-dropping?
You know, like how is that even
possible?
Something is really wrong.
And um, so to create a culture
of connectedness and um and
shared purpose and meaning is a
really important thing.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love that.
Yeah, it's um it's really
interesting because I've talked
to a lot of practitioners and
they're like, why do you have
people work with you at your
clinic?
Like, I'm because I can't
imagine riding in the boat
alone.
Like I even from the first day I
opened the clinic, I never
envisioned it being one person.
Like to me, that felt like such
a lonely path.
And and I think a lot of
practitioners go solo and
they're they don't either know
how to collaborate with others
or they're I don't know what it
is, but um, I find that when I
went through some of the worst
days of my life, it was so
beautiful to have them hold up
the clinic and to do things that
I couldn't do because I had a
brain injury and I wasn't making
great choices.
And it was nice to have someone,
you know, do do the backup and
be like, nope, that's not a good
idea.
Um, and then, you know, when
they've lost family members, you
know, we step in and we help
each other, like we call their
clients and we make sure that
everyone's taken care of.
And and I think in a community
um of that kind of support, we
also support each other's
growth.
And, you know, there's a it was
interesting.
Daniel was working on someone
one day, and when she walked
out, I could tell her pelvic was
still tilted because of how she
was walking.
And that, and we have such
rapport.
I said, Daniel, do you mind if I
just show you how to treat this
one thing?
I don't think we've you've
learned it before.
And he was so grateful, she was
so grateful.
She said, I have had that pain
for 25 years and nobody has
found it.
And um, Daniel was like, Thank
you for showing that to me.
I had another therapist who
didn't last at our clinic, very
similar situation.
I'm always very humble when I
like kind of like go in and I
could just see, you know,
something got missed.
And I, you know, I everyone
knows it's never an ego thing
for me.
It's always what's best for the
client.
And she was furious.
She quit, she left because she
felt very humiliated.
And then like, I know myself and
I know how I approached that.
I know I didn't do it from that
stance.
And it was hard to have someone
like that where ego was blocking
growth or what was best for the
client.
And and I'm much care more
careful about who we bring in
now to make sure that they like,
even if I'm not doing something
right, or anyone's like, you
know, not in alignment that we
have we catch it for each other.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
Two thoughts.
One one of which is uh in the
data in the psych world, um, if
you practice in a group setting
or if you practice individually,
your outcomes, I forget the
percentage, but it was
significant.
You are significantly more
effective in a group setting.
And and the reason is exactly
what you just said, um, you
know, even in our clinic, a lot
of it happens when you're
washing your hands, you know,
like, oh, I just saw someone
who, and man, I cannot figure
that out.
And then I hear all these
conversations of people like,
like, well, I don't know, did
you ever think about uh but if
you're by yourself, you know,
it's like it's really hard to
have that conversation by
yourself.
And and you know, you you just
never get the input from another
another source or another pair
of eyes to do that.
And the second thing is um it
also is about that culture and
defining who you are, so that
person, for instance, who was
with you does not fit the kind
of culture that you, you know,
you want to have.
You know, we just had somebody
who looked at, you know, wanting
to join our practice, but you
know, she happened to be here at
a time when we were doing an
advanced training and she saw
really where the bus is going.
And she said, you know, that
doesn't really resonate with the
work that I love and the way I
can best do this.
Like, thank you for saying that.
That's awesome, you know, and
and and here's another
environment in our community
that I think you might thrive,
and they would love to have you.
And that's where she is now, you
know.
So, you know, when you're clear
about who you are, what you do,
and why you do it, then then you
draw people to that.
And conversely, uh, you know,
the the people who don't fit in
that thing, you're not gonna
make that alignment happen.
Um I'm gonna go back to the
cello.
Yeah.
And I'm no, I'm not gonna play
because then you'll just want to
turn the recording off.
Uh, are you kidding?
SPEAKER_03: I love listening to
your cello at your dinner
parties.
It's one of the things I miss
most about level two.
In fact, I was like, I need to
come to Champagne again.
SPEAKER_01: So the way you know
that you're in tune is if you
are playing a note and then the
other strings begin to vibrate,
right?
That that's resonance.
But you know, I I thought the
other day when I was doing that,
that you know what?
I look for resonance in every
part of my life, you know, it's
in the cello, it's in it, you
know, does it resonances that
connection with another person?
Resonances, you know, the
business.
If we're all, you know, in
alignment, you just feel that
like energy that just compounds
itself, and it's more than just
the one thing that's happening,
it's vibrating at multiple
levels.
That's you know, it's it's the
overtones that matter, and that
tells you you really are in
tune.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love that.
Yeah, it's um it's it is an
interesting thing to be the like
the leader of the the ship and
making sure that that stays
intact because I think it's like
that's one way thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I mean, uh
leadership is uh it's not easy.
SPEAKER_03: I have been
resisting it, and my soul has
been saying, no, it's time for
you to be in more of a
leadership role, stop resisting
it.
And um, I've been getting a lot
of spiritual lessons on that
path lately, and um finally
surrendering and going, Okay, I
I hear you.
I'm gonna start embodying a more
of a leadership role.
And I think sometimes that means
being more vulnerable and you
know, speaking about things that
people will wholeheartedly
disagree with and still, you
know, operating from a place of
love and respect for all people.
And so it, yeah, it is
interesting.
Um, the challenge of like even
wanting to be more public, uh,
you know, even on social media
and provide people with a
different angle on what massage
is and pain and how we can we
can do better.
And um it I think you said it on
a the call the other day where
the the trolls will will troll
you and and they're not the
people in the in the arena with
the the clients, they're not in
practice with people and they're
just sitting in quiet judgment.
And I thought, oh, and they're
the ones who have the loudest
voice, and the people who
probably have a lot of wisdom
tend to hide because they don't
want to be, they don't want to
be in the battle, in the arena,
I guess is the word.
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and uh, you
know, again, you know, then then
it's the is that an arena worth
being in?
Like, you know, like uh, you
know, uh I again I'll go back to
Athens and the Athenian trap
where you know people just
savored the love of the argument
and and you know, like I have
zero interest in that, you know.
Um, but if you can show me that,
you know, you are consistently
delivering really great results
in your clinic, I want to know
what the heck you're doing.
But if it's if it's about you
know just sitting behind the
keyboard and and and trying to
impress people with the
cleverness of your arguments, um
I, you know, I am too old for
that.
Uh, you know, like really uh
because clients do not care how
clever you think you are.
What they care about is can you
deliver the goods or not?
Yeah, and and to that end, you
know, like you can be this
wonderful caring therapist, and
people will appreciate that, and
then they will disappear, right?
Because they're you know, boy,
she is so wonderful.
But but I I still hurt, right?
Um and and all of those things
you can care, you can be
whatever, you can in the end, uh
you have to deliver results, and
and honestly, that's what it's
about.
And and if we just keep working
at what is the best way to do
that, you know, and sustain it,
then those things are of
interest to me.
But just uh the entertaining
oneself, uh, you know, doing
these things, uh little
interest, you know.
I have zero not little interest,
zero interest.
SPEAKER_03: I am not
competitive, I have zero
interest in um proving myself to
other people.
I just like to get results for
people because I care.
SPEAKER_01: I'm competitive, but
if you're gonna be competitive,
you ought to compete in the
things that actually matter,
right?
So, you know, it's like you
know, what it's like I'm sure
you've had conversations with
someone, and then you realize
there is no point to this,
right?
Like I am wasting my time, and
then you're just like, okay, and
whatever, and you walk away.
So again, you know, energy idea,
it's finite, right?
And you have to think, what is
the best use of my time right
now?
And what really matters that I
can walk away feeling like I
made a difference, and uh just
just incestuous arguing about
what I yeah, that does not in
any way feel like I made a
difference in the world because
it never stops.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I never
engage in those arguments
anymore.
I'm I'm more just like, well,
this is what I can do, and this
is what I studied, and this is
how I got here.
So um, and this is my mission in
life.
So I think.
When you understand like kind of
who you are on a bigger scale or
what you come here to do and
you're connected with your
purpose, I feel like that is my
North Star.
Like, and I'm not always excited
about it because I'm always
like, I don't know if I want to,
you know, do the things my soul
kind of like is pulling me
towards.
But then, you know, it has never
been a bad result.
Like it led me, you know, to the
path of opening a wellness
center that I am very I love and
I love that we've helped over
10,000 people in our community.
Like it, I mean, that's huge.
Like when you think about it,
it's like what a a legacy.
And I I hope other people get to
experience that.
And I always try to dissuade
people from the four-year
university like you.
I did not go either.
And I always thought that was a
hindrance.
And later to find out it
actually was a benefit because I
had the ability to be so more,
much more open to kind of the
path of learning bodywork and
not having this kind of like
closed framework about how it
had to be.
And it was more like kind of it
just organically grew into what
it was supposed to be.
And um, I think because I had
that curiosity and openness
about learning the the next
thing that like a client would
inevitably come in and I would
have to learn how to treat that
next.
And then it would always make me
a better therapist because I
didn't have a closed mindset
about how it needed to be.
And um, I think that's actually
one of the benefits of massage
therapy when you find someone
who's really committed to the
craft and like also committed to
patient care is that you you are
always questioning is this still
right?
Is this still accurate?
Is there a better way that I
don't know yet?
And then you start finding the
solutions, I think, when you ask
better questions.
SPEAKER_01: You bet.
And so in the end, you know, it
helps us grow professionally,
but also personally, right?
And so, um, and I think that's
the hallmark of this is that you
get to grow in both domains, you
know, and as a person, um, it it
teaches you deep lessons um on
so many levels, and then you
know, professionally as well, to
know that you're of service um
and have made a difference in
many lives.
That's a really, really powerful
thing to fall back on and and uh
just know deep in your heart
that um yeah, in the end, uh
what what do you look back on?
It's the lives you touch for the
lives you made a difference
with.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that's
the thing that that when I don't
want to do the things, I that's
the thing that gets me going.
As then I just connect in with
being of service um and helping
people.
Um that is what keeps me going
every day, and I love it because
that's that's what energizes me.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the why,
right?
And and I think that's the
difference between having uh
having a um a goal and having a
mission.
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
When when when the winds will
blow, and the winds will always
blow, the storms will come.
Sometimes it's a typhoon.
Um you just have to like uh if
you fall back on the mission,
you'll hang in there through it.
If you just have goals of things
you wanted to achieve, yeah, the
yeah.
SPEAKER_03: What are we doing
today?
How are we bringing that into
the world?
And then that's what gets me
going.
Traditional goal setting does
not work for me because I'm a
very mission-oriented person,
but yeah.
Um so for I know we have to
probably go soon.
So I'm what if you were to think
about like new or uh, you know,
actually, I want to talk to the
people in burnout because I
think we lost a lot of really
qualified therapists because of
COVID.
I actually almost lost my clinic
and um had to take on a
considerable amount of
challenges to keep it going.
And, you know, the love of the
work that we do is what my
mission actually is kind of what
kept it alive.
How do you what do you tell
people who are in that phase of
their career where they're like,
I think I should go do something
new?
Or is this really for me
anymore?
I'm bored or like I'm getting
injured, or um, you know, what
is massage therapy injury is
hugely likely if you're doing it
like in a way that's not of
service to your body.
So how do you have a long career
in it?
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Through the burnout
is the r is the real question.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's
uh an attitude of endless
discovery.
And I usually when you're
burning out a plateau kind of
thing, it's about um it's really
about lack of growth.
You feel like you're just you've
hit a level and you're just
going through the motions, as we
talked about before.
You need to do something to jolt
yourself out of that.
Um, and it it always involves a
new challenge, a new something,
a new way of looking at things.
Um and and I I I feel like it,
you know, it's interesting with
with so many people to you know,
over the years to help them see
like it's the same thing, but
seen in a different way.
Um, like I said earlier, like a
piece of music.
When I sit with um a friend of
mine who has a PhD in
composition, you know, and I
listen to some piece of music,
some symphony or something, and
I was like, oh, that's really
pretty, but I've heard this
before.
And then he says, Do you
understand that?
And then all of a sudden it's
like, are you kidding?
Like, like suddenly I hear and
see the same thing that I've
heard so many times, but I never
understood what it actually
meant.
And um and the same is true with
anatomy and um with our you
know, treatment of people.
The danger is Einstein said
about us, what holds us back
isn't what we don't know, it's
what we think we know.
And you're never curious about
things you think you understand.
And so somehow you have to have
this little awareness that,
like, holy crap, there's stuff I
don't know.
And it's really hard to be to
have burnout about like a whole
set of challenges that are in
front of you, especially if you
loved it in the first place,
right?
And you know, it's a little bit
like if if your relationship is
getting stale, you know, with
your significant other, right?
You don't go, well, I'm gonna
look for somebody else, you
know, there's more interesting,
right?
Like really you're gonna start
all over again.
You're just like you you're not
listening to that person, and
and there's a whole place of
discovery that will takes a
lifetime because that moment,
that person, and you are not the
same that day as the next day,
right?
So who are you today?
All right, um, instead of
saying, I know I know, you know,
like um at some point in the end
of your life, right?
People are like, oh my gosh, I
wish I would have paid more
attention.
You know, and I and you have, I
have been with people at the end
of their life, and uh and what
they felt like they didn't need
more stuff.
They didn't need more, they just
wish they would have been there
and fully experienced you know,
the things that they already
had.
Yeah.
So let's not make that same
mistake, right?
Let's learn from those people
and do it now, uh, because at
some point it is too late.
And so that in front of my uh in
my office, I have the scroll
that I brought back from Japan,
Ichigo Ichi, which is a famous
scroll from Japan that says,
every opportunity for service is
an opportunity never to return.
But it it came in the days of
the samurai priests, where this,
you know, you would be, you
know, uh out back at your house,
and all of a sudden this priest
would come up and just beg for a
bowl of rice.
And and the thing was that
person, you will never see them
again in the rest of your life.
This is that moment to savor
that moment because it will
never happen again.
And honestly, this interview,
you and I, this connection, just
will never happen again, right?
And and you know, so well, I
hope it happens again.
Yeah, yeah, but not in this way,
not in right.
And so so I think once you do
that, it's really burnout is
lack of paying attention.
And and sometimes it takes
someone just to peel back the
depths of of whatever activity
it is, and sometimes it's your
whole life, right?
That you realize, oh my
goodness, there's so much to
save her.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that
is the wisdom of midlife, like
and beyond.
Like it's that like, oh gosh,
everything is so much more
beautiful than I realized.
And like every day when I walk
into some, I'm I'm I'm almost
just like I'm filled with
appreciation that that's like
this place where I get to spend
my day.
And I just like I feel so much
gratitude, and I think that
brings me into a state of
presence, and um I think that's
what keeps me out of burnout,
and it's that state of just
gratitude for getting to do this
work and loving something so
much, like that.
I don't think people get to
experience in their careers like
a lot, a lot of people.
And I think that if I could gift
anyone that joy of getting to be
of service and making money
doing it at the same time and
having an impact, I mean it's
worth the struggle and the hard
days and the challenges that a
business goes through.
Like it's it's worth it to just
be with that feeling.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
And and again, if you love
something and if you love
something, that also means you
have to care for it, right?
And and in our field, caring for
it is learning, right?
And and doing doing the hard
work of the all that it takes to
be a really great therapist.
And um, and that is uh endless
learning uh to be of of the best
possible service.
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
It is, and that's uh self-care
and boundaries with clients and
you know, really getting clear
on who you enjoy working with
and who you shouldn't be working
with.
And those are things that were
really important because in the
beginning you always take on all
the clients because you're you
just want money or experience.
And then I think your your craft
starts to get a little bit more
fine-tuned and you can be a
little more picky about, you
know, I actually have really
strong boundaries, and I don't
let people treat us like that in
our clinic.
And actually, you don't get to
do that here.
And and you know, being someone
who is an advocate for the
people who work for you, that's
actually that's a skill I didn't
know I was gonna have to
develop.
And and um I actually like that
about about me that I'm not
afraid to like hold the space
for, you know, or to be the
person who protects the the
clinicians that work for me too
from people who are not in that
great, you know, space.
SPEAKER_01: So that's what
leaders do.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_02: All right.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, thank you
so much.
I really appreciate you.
And I just want to say that it's
it's very much because you show
up and do your work that I show
up and do my work and and you
have really inspired me.
And you know, everyone who comes
through my clinic is grateful
that you followed your path and
not playing the cello or the the
guitar.
Everyone that uh every the
hundreds of thousands of people
probably that you've touched on
the planet vicariously through
the people you have trained are
grateful that you pursued this
instead of.
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a special
community of uh people.
And um, you know, for me, when I
get tired, I I think about
yourself and so many people out
there are doing the hard work,
and um we all like we all lean
on each other.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03: And thank you for
your time this evening.
I'm so grateful.
And I hope you have a nice
evening.
And I'll put all your links down
below so people can find you.
SPEAKER_01: All right, thank you
so much.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03: Good night.