Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Kyle Roof appears as a central figure in this discussion because James Dooley invites him to break down key SEO ideas, which creates a detailed comparison of modern optimisation practices. The conversation outlines how page structure shapes ranking outcomes because optimisation influences how search engines interpret relevance. It highlights how testing strengthens SEO accuracy because controlled experiments expose real algorithm behaviour. It frames recession as an opportunity because reduced competition creates openings for growth. It positions AI as a functional tool because workflow efficiency increases when repetitive tasks are automated. It presents link evaluation as a quality issue because user clicks signal genuine authority more effectively than raw metrics.
Creators and Guests
Host
Guest
Kyle Roof
Kyle Roof is an SEO specialist who built his reputation on running more than 400 scientific SEO tests because he wanted to understand how Google’s algorithm responds to controlled variables. Kyle Roof applies lab-style testing to content and ranking factors because measurable outcomes matter more than opinions. Kyle Roof co-founded agencies and training platforms because his frameworks help marketers implement predictable, test-backed strategies. Kyle Roof focuses on algorithm behaviour, on-page weighting, and controlled experiments because these insights reveal what genuinely moves rankings. Kyle Roof connects naturally with James Dooley because both prioritise data-driven SEO and structured experimentation. Kyle Roof aligns with the FatRank Podcast because his scientific approach complements James Dooley’s focus on performance marketing and scalable lead generation. A FatRank Podcast episode featuring Kyle Roof and James Dooley would create strong value because laboratory testing and real-world commercial SEO combine into a practical playbook for UK entrepreneurs.
What is Fatrank Podcast?
The FatRank Podcast, founded by James Dooley, teaches the mindset needed for growth because real operator stories show what creates progress.
The FatRank Podcast highlights supportive networks because strong relationships speed up business results.
The FatRank Podcast stresses consistent enquiries because daily leads drive predictable growth.
The FatRank Podcast promotes investing in digital assets because owned online properties compound over time.
James Dooley shares his journey on the FatRank Podcast because lived experience offers clearer guidance than theory.
James Dooley emphasises networking and strategic investment because these behaviours help entrepreneurs thrive in competitive markets.
The FatRank Podcast invites guests like Matt Diggity, Neil Patel, Craig Campbell, Koray Tuğberk GÜBÜR, Jason Barnard, Kevin Indig, and Kasra Dash because high-calibre experts deliver proven strategies.
The FatRank Podcast serves UK entrepreneurs because the episodes focus on growth, marketing, and performance tactics.
Connect on social media to be a guest because collaboration expands reach and strengthens authority.
Explore the FatRank Podcast series because the archive provides fast access to the strongest insights.
James Dooley:
Hi everyone today I am joined with Kyle rof an absolute legend of the SE industry and to make matters a little bit worse for Kyle I got him on the podcast and I told him that when we start the video I wanted him to promote some of his tools because I don't feel like he promotes it well enough he gives so much value to everyone up on stage and doing podcasts and then is the second secondary at the end they'll mention oh by the way I own page optimizer pro oh by the way I've got IMG for training and courses and for testing so what I did was in today's episode is I got into to initially speak about all the services and products that it has and believe it or not the first 30 minutes didn't record so Kyle took the opportunity to promote like the pop features like within page optimizer pro I don't know if people know this or not but there's something called Watch Dog now watch doog is absolutely brilliant right you set it up for your pages and when there's a an intent shift or you drop in rankings significantly and the serps are all changing with who's coming in it'll send you an alert so what it allows you to do is go back into the page and reoptimize that page and give a Content freshness element to try to start improving the pages that has gone and dropped off that's a feature within page optimizer pro called Watch Dog strongly recommend everybody setting that up on their websites there's another big feature with regards to eat and he's actually got the next gen version of eat with regards to just ticking all the boxes he says that eat isn't a direct ranking Factor but from a trust point of view when a hub starts to come and visit your site you should have all those box all them tick boxes done having a contact number having multiple email addresses and lots of other things that page optimizer pro comes back with that you should have not to mention the page optimizer pro on page optimization it's Edge analysis it's not just correlation it shows you where you're going to get best bang for your book in getting terms in exactly the right places which could be a h2 tag a H3 tag in the opening sentence what entities are missing using NLP categorization what is needed on the page now these tools are absolutely brilliant they're very Innovative Kyle tests every single day the algorithms of what is working and what's not working now I got Kyle to talk about all of this and within Riverside it didn't record so there's obviously something out there which doesn't want Kyle promoting these products so I'm going to have the recordings that are going to start in a minute between me and Kyle I'm just giving you the introduction here of what wasn't recorded it was 30 minutes full of knowledge bombs I apologize for this not being part of the podcast there's still 40 minutes of gems that talk about the current state of the SEO industry the Google leaks and lots of other things there's some quickfire questions with what Kyle thinks is better with regards to content and back links and lots of other questions that I hit him with but I just feel a little bit sorry because I wanted him to promote IMG which is where he has a lot of training courses I strongly recommend people to go and check that out with regards to different courses via different people that are at the top of their game that teach things that's working in today's algorithms there's also then the single variable testing that he does and you get full access to all of the results of what's working again in today's algorithms not what Google's telling you works but what's what's working in the algorithms physically by these tests that are happening I strongly recommend anyone who watches this if they see any value when he's on if you've not got page optimizer pro to sign up if you not sign up to ymg to sign up I wanted him to promote it himself because I didn't feel like he does it enough on stage and in other places and I want Kyle to do amazing with everything of what he's doing because the amount of training that he does for the SEO communities is second to on he's an unbelievable guy and without further Ado I'll get the recording now starting up in a second that will introduce but it won't really introduce it'll just be halfway through a podcasts that just start asking him questions cuz the first part didn't record properly so apologies on my behalf for that but here it is where I'm firing some questions over with Kyle rof so Kyle in your opinion then what would you be doing with regards to a site that's being hit with the helpful content update.
Kyle Roof:
So because there hasn't been any uh uh U any recovery that we know of it's where you can say like I did this and this definitely happened and and there's been people here and there saying some things but nothing concrete I think as I mentioned earlier you really want to know is it the site that Google hates where is it the content and so what I would do is i' take content I'd put it somewhere else on a site that wasn't hit that's in the same Niche and see if you recover the rankings and if you do recover then I think it's the issue that Google hates the site now what I think as we discussed I think that's going to put you on you're on a naughty list is what I think has happened and they have I I don't think has a problem for them to put sites on the naughty list and from there they like what should you do you know what what should you do now um one option is just hang on to the site because in a matter of but what could be years it it will it will come back um but um old school SEO bill harzer um had a thing about domain so he's a a domain expert and he's consulted on a lot of things with a lot of people about domains and I remember him talking about you know Google doesn't want to penalize a new site owner let's say you know you've done something naughty you let the site go and then I see and I'm like oh hey that's a great domain name I'd love to I'd love to buy it Google doesn't want to penalize me you know that I'm I'm I'm a Bonafide purchaser I'm I shouldn't be tarnished with something that somebody else has done and so he was talking about the idea of changing owners like actually sell the site change the owners and that actually might get rid of the penalty now they're uh unscrew ways to do that um which he said will also work and so that was for penalties from back at the penguin Panda days and how he was able to recover some sides would simply sell them and change the ownership So you you're going to let the side drop uh you're going to then have somebody else purchase it it the registry is going to change the ownership name's going to change there actually used to be a thing within Google saying like I've moved this site but you I think way back in the day you even say like hey I'm a new owner um I'm not not sure they've got that any I don't think they've got that anymore but I think a change in the registry would be something else that I would consider on how to perhaps recover a site.
James Dooley:
Yeah yeah yeah well let's see um yeah I think there's a few people at present that are Midway through doing that technique and doing some 301s also trying some where it's not 301 but it's canonical in from one website to another website stuff like that but again I'm yet to see any concrete evidence of any sort of um for recovery but let's let's move on Google leak what's your thoughts on the Google leak oh sorry did I did I but in then with regards to have you got anything to add on what I was saying on that with regards to like canonical or 301s.
Kyle Roof:
You know Google's always said they don't respect uh cross domain canonical so it would be interesting to see if that actually does anything um the the Hop or the double hop technique would also be interesting to see if that works where you go to a very similar domain name uh through maybe an intermediary very similar domain name and through I did that like seven years ago and it worked and it was fun um I found with every update more old school spam seems to work because I think cuz I think the people that like fixed something and then you've got people that don't know what that fix was like I don't know what this code is and they take it out and then spam works again yeah um which is also Bill hars are line by the way um so I think maybe some of those older techniques might work again if if they were not working simply because the code is has changed so much and maybe uh superflous code or what looked like superflous code has been removed by newer Engineers so I would give all those old techniques a try.
James Dooley:
Yeah yeah for sure yeah some of the Legacy cod with in Google has definitely been removed on certain things but that's we shall see where theun where where the fun begins yeah the the latest Google leak what's your thoughts on it is it I mean there's a lot of people kind of shouting and screaming see I was right all along there is elements of confirmation bias they're physically looking for something specifically that they've been talking about but what is there any juicy bits in there that you've taken from the Google leak like what's your thoughts overall about the Google leak.
Kyle Roof:
There are a couple elements like with click data uh I think they even mentioned keyword density in there um where Google has said repeatedly that those things are simply aren't part of the algorithm and and I think they've also said and never have been kind of a kind of a a quote uh something to that effect and what's interesting is that we've got this list and Google says yes that is a list of factors now how strong they are when they're in play that's a whole other conversation but what it does appear is that um they've been very dishonest about some factors at being present or being possible uh I don't think you'd have a list of things that we don't do you know here's a list of things that we don't do you know in in between list of things that they do do so at some point and let's say in the most generous reading of it we actually don't use those factors anymore we used to or they were part of something and they don't exist anymore but they've been pretty clear that some of these things have never been part of the algorithm there nothing you should ever worry about and it appears at some point they at a minimum were right but it seems to me that they probably all those factors are in play at some point in time depending on the serp and and depending on the keyword so if it really does feel like they they've been more than dishonest that it's been direct lies and that's um I mean that's kind of thing that I know that we felt for a long time you know obviously Google said this I tried that and got the opposite result you know what they said should happen so uh I did see some you know Google Talking Heads say that why I think Li's a strong word and I like I don't think it's strong enough.
James Dooley:
Yeah for sure anyway let's move on artificial intelligence it's in and around us everywhere now images videos content we're using it for League segmentation and stuff like that what's your thoughts on AI specifically what start with the content what's what's your thoughts on that.
Kyle Roof:
AI is a tool and the version that we have now will not be the version we're using in a year so you cannot get tool dependent you need to get concept dependent you know you have to have the framework for what what you're trying to do and I think now would be the time to really learn how to do prompts and how to learn to do that stuff on your own because if you don't what's going to happen is you're become dependent on another tool that's using AI you know so there there's obviously things you can't do because what it does best is processing masses of amounts of information very quickly I mean that's why a tool like pop is great or any of the other onpage tools are great because you could go in and do all the manual counting yourself uh the point of those tools is to speed up that process if you think of AI as a tool that speeds up processes then you're in good shape and uh I think learning prompts and how it can how it can think and and it's it's its restrictions and uh and what and its restraints and what it can and can't do that's going to be very valuable and so I would spend my time learning that using it for like that first draft of content what I think AI content has done has killed that like three cent a word type writer out of the Philippines that's that's that's what it's done because it's in my opinion very similar content from what you're getting from those folks and really then what you need to do is edit for brand facts proprietary data uniqueness tone Etc and and then you've got a finished product so that's where I think in terms of content that it's at it's a 70% of the way regardless of the tool you're using um you still need to edit for a lot because it it can't get specific uh it doesn't know your brand very well it doesn't know um actual facts very well uh it's not a lot of it some new tools are going onto the web and finding some information but it's still not super great so anything you can do to speed things up anything you do faster and and especially content that's what I would use it for and I wouldn't get locked into this is the only tool I'm going to use for the rest of my life because things will change quite quickly.
James Dooley:
Yeah for sure so you are you an advocate then that we should be embracing AI overall not just for Content but just in general for any way of life of speeding up things trying to improve things obviously there's certain things to do with like it can create decent python code it can create calculators and stuff like that are you trying to integrate it within your business.
Kyle Roof:
I would be careful with that because um it's not a science book or a math book it's an English book yeah and so while it can do some of that I would be very very careful um relying on it for that once the science book version comes out or the math book version comes out then yeah that'd be cool but they won't because these are all language models so be very uh don't use one thing for another field entirely yeah at least to at least to rely on it so I I would be careful there but you know repetitive tasks things that you are constantly doing an AI can probably step in and do a lot of that for you and that's where I would look to get edges like right now I'm playing with the I I don't have a solution yet but I I watched Gail Brenton from Authority hackers show how he's doing you know those are emails that just need like a a one sentence reply like received or like they somebody as like hey can you send over a head shot and a description can put this on the website those kind of emails I get a bunch of those every day ayi can handle that for you and what he's done is he's gone through and and set up so that um he gets when he wakes up in the morning he's got like 30 draft emails and he just has to click Send on it because the a has gone through Reddit okay this is the answer I think you need to put in there and that's a massive timesaver and so that's where I would really try to implement those repetitive tasks things that you're doing you can train an AI to handle that for you and and that's where I would really focus my time because then that's going to be a time saer for you to do something else.
James Dooley:
Yeah yeah yeah for sure moving on debunking any SEO myths in the industry obviously there's a lot of uh miscommunication there's a lot of people sharing things um either on stage or online or on videos that isn't always correct um is there any that shout and scream out to yourself of what PE obviously we've just spoke about Google sharing misinformation but like is there any like similar things that you're seeing where someone's going to added one and one together and got 10 and then going shout and scream for it or correlation doesn't mean colation and stuff like that.
Kyle Roof:
You know the the I I'll tell you when you know you're hearing nonsense um it's when somebody says with certainty this is how it is and they don't show you anything yeah you know they don't show you that they did something now somebody may or may not like a test that I've done and that that's totally fine but that gives a conversation starting point now show me what you did I'm I'm happy to see what you did and maybe we can see where the difference is or maybe I'm wrong uh that's where the conversation needs to be I did this and it doesn't have to be a super scientific single single variable in the lab you know just a case study you know I did this 10 times and I got eight results that look like this that's awesome cuz then you're showing something and then we can have a conversation about it but you see in a lot of those major Publications in our industry um is this a ranking factor and they'll say definitely not and the reason that it's not a rank ring factors cuz Google said this one thing one time in a tweet and then it feels like this over here and so it's definitely not a factor I'm like well that's literal garbage um and is unhelpful uh it could be correct but it it it when it doesn't provide anything like I did this and this was the result I I played with this over here I tried to isolate this factor and do it this way and they have nothing to show then you know it's nonsense um and those are the the the ones that I end up debunking regularly are just this isn't a factor I'm like okay but you didn't do anything you know you you listen to a couple tweets and we know how how honest those tweets are now and uh and then you spoke to somebody over here one time and they said this but they didn't do anything and so that kind of like Echo chamber nonsense is just going to be a waste of time and it's it's probably going to be wrong it's going to be wrong most of the time.
James Dooley:
What what do you mean when you've said about miscommunication with Ivory Tower seos um and the definition of spam you know this this took me a long time so people think I'm a black hat SEO and it really confused me I'm like because I'm not I I do white hat techniques I have real companies that I work with that can't get anywhere near a gray line right and what I realized is that because I don't just believe Google that's I'm a heretic you know like that that I would even consider running a test you know and may maybe that test would be consider black like if I test cloaking for example sure that that's outside the guidelines but I'm not testing cloaking to trick anybody I'm testing cloaking to see if it works you know can what will this actually do and I realized that people think that if you don't um accept Google exactly as Google has said you know or at least as they have perceived it and you you have the gal to to run a test you're you're a black hat but then I was thinking about one step further where I was watching some some presentations on on spam and they were talking about these black hat techniques and then they showed the results in in the serps and they were saying this is the result of of a black hat technique and I was like but but what's the content cuz spam and black hat are not the same word yeah what if you had the cure for cancer and you needed to get it out as fast as possible would you build a website from scratch you know no you do anything and all things to get out so like maybe use a black hat technique to rank that cure for cancer but the content itself is not spam if you spend $1,000 to get a parasite up on Forbes I guarantee that's probably going to be a pretty good article and it's going to answer whatever question anybody had about that particular thing cuz you're not going to put up some garbage after you spent so much money to get a placement somewhere and so what I realized is that a lot of the Ivory Tower seos conflate black hat with Spam just because somebody used a black hat technique and whether that's right or wrong is is a different conversation but I'm talking about the content itself because people are like oh the results are getting worse and I'm like you know Google might have removed a lot of spam it might have gotten there because of black hat but was actually really good info you know that actually satisfied what that person what the Searcher was looking for and it was provided the information and then this other content that remains after you remove it is not that great yeah you know it's just it's not the same quality because somebody took the time to get this great piece up there they wrote a really good piece they gave really good information and so it was really interesting where these what I'm calling like Ivory Tower people that only work on like dr70 sites and like all you have to do is this and it's so easy screw off like of course anything you do to dr70 sit's going to work you don't need backlinks that's crazy you're beyond backlinks of course you don't need but it it's a really interesting idea of if you do something black hat then the result is Spam that isn't true and also if you don't believe Google and you test something that you're black at which also isn't true and that's why I realize you've got these seos over here and that's what they think they think if you test something if you don't believe you don't believe in your heart that this you know Bible that they've given us called the guidelines isn't ex you like the you know the interpretation from the apostles in in their in their blogs you know if you don't believe that with all your heart then you're black hat which is silly and then on the other hand if you've done something black hat then the result must be spam and and again I don't do black ey techniques I'm not doing that to put in but if somebody has done that but the the content is is good you know then that's not spam and then there two different issues going on which and I realize that's the the misinformation or the miscommunication that's happening between these two kind of groups they're like because people might be like sure I use a technique that you don't like but my content is better than yours and that doesn't make it spam just because the technique that was used and I realize that that's the miscommunication is happening between a lot of camps is identifying that black hat doesn't equal spam content and that not believing also doesn't make you black hat.
James Dooley:
So moving on then Kyle let's talk about the current state of the SEO industry um because something that I would say is that I've heard you talking on stage and we share a very very close well the same opinion um with regards to I always say more millionaires are made in the recession and I remember you on stage saying when there's blood on the streets it's the best time to by so and I think we're in that position now I think we're we're just within the SEO Community we're suffering from a recession there's a lot of bag stigma at the moment around the Google leak around um affiliate sites being here um I know I speak to a lot of different link building agencies and generally speaking across the board they down a lot of them are down like 35 to 40% some some are actually in the recession actually doing well and actually growing but a lot across the board down and it's mainly because Affiliates now that have been hit hard that was earning a lot of money they've just stopped buying at present and they've looked at traffic diversity and stuff like that and people saying these volatile search engine results pages so what's your thoughts on this like let's let's talk about when you say in the sentence when there's blood on the streets is the best time to buy.
Kyle Roof:
Yeah so I think in like 2018 2019 you saw a real surge in SEO and people doing their own sites and people agency starting and and services provided and then Co happened in 2020 and people can't leave the house and I think they all started side projects they were all SEO side projects you know putting up webites and services and stuff like that it was inevitable that there was going to be a crunch um and it kind of came in one big motion with like hcu with AI stuff coming out and then with the March core and then that really I think brought things to a SC screeching halt for a lot of people um this was going to happen and what we're and now is this kind of this recession time uh in terms of people getting out of SEO and where service providers like with like my tool or or with links and stuff like that um the link Builders you mentioned they um yeah they're they're seeing that crunch because you got that segment especially like the affiliate segment that's being removed they were buying a lot of services and so there's going to be kind of that downside but there's going to be more down and I see in the next 3 to six months people will still continue to get out but in that process of them getting out that's where there's more opportunity you know we in a in a sense needed people to get out to clear the field because then once you know things recover and things will recover and and things have always recovered um once things come back just a little bit when you're still there then that's the opportunity and so I think in the next little bit people will be offloading sites um people will be uh service providers will be getting out people who were doing small agency work will be getting out and and that reduction of people in those areas and then an increase in available properties um that's the opportunity and uh I think if you keep an eye on those kind of things you'll be you'll be good so if you have if you can weather the storm you know you can weather uh this this time period and then um get through it uh you're going to be in great shape and and and once that recovery starts again you're just going to be uh uh in a great spot even better if during the downturn if you can pivot a little bit if you can take what you're doing and provide what the market needs in this downturn then you can do really really well and you know that's the reason that we're offering that package that I mentioned for people that like I need time to scale my business not do the on page that's where we realize there might be a gap in the market for people that need that or I I need somebody to show me the SEO that I need to do based on these reports rather than me digging through CU I don't have the time to do it cuz I have to do something else I need to run my plum business that's why we're offering that type of a product to fill that in this downturn time because we think that's what people needs.
James Dooley:
Yeah for sure I mean like you said the current state at present is it's definitely on a low it's definitely on a down um but like you said this in the recessions where more millionaires have been made than ever before so just a little Ingenuity you know a little Ingenuity and and you can you can make a lot of money you can do very very well and then if and then you're positioned you know then you're in the right spot for them when things swing back up again then you're really in the right spot yeah but outside of let's say this now the current state when when there were still times still a lot of times that people jump from one training course to the next training course and I want to I want to talk a little bit about I always talk about the free P's prioritization a perfectionist and someone who procrastinates in in my opinion when I share masterminds with people that don't seem to grow seem to suffer from what one two or even all three of those kind of points they're ones that kind of get to a point where they do grow in the Flatline and they can never get past let's say they get to £10,000 a month and they always go I just can't seem to get past this I lose a client I win a client I lose a client I win a client and you're like well you're probably losing them because you're at the threshold of how many clients you can deal with with regards to your processes your systems you scaling out a team and having all that being set up correctly um what's your thoughts on why is it one touching upon any of the things that I've spoke about there but why most seos if well not most why seos fail if they do fail obviously some of them just continuously seem to do great and always do great but they seem to understand my management the culture of making certain that your staff is good and they understand knowing how to scale but what what's you what's your major reasons of why you see other people that fail.
Kyle Roof:
A a big thing in addition what you me mentioned is um inaction just purely not doing anything worrying about SEO and doing SEO are two different things and often when they when they don't know the best course of action or there are too many courses that you can take too many options they don't choose any of them and and end up failing as a result and so I see that a lot like that analysis paralysis you know I'm I'm worrying about it I'm looking at it I'm staring at search console or my rank trackers or whatever but you're not actually doing SEO or they do like one little thing and they half asset and then they're like I did I did it all I tried it all and it didn't nothing nothing worked well okay well that little thing maybe so um but when you're talking about like the scaling issue or like getting past that threshold um uh that comes down to Sops it has to you know that you should not be doing all the work and what my guess is in those situations is they're doing all the work and as a result they don't have the time to do the Outreach for more clients you know because they themselves haven't passed off that work to somebody else so you have to give that work away so that you can then scale and grow the business and you should have Sops that a a well-trained conquer spaniel can do can follow like it really needs to be step by step by step so that somebody can step in and do all that work the initial thing is just have whoever is doing that job let's say you've got a VA doing something make them do the SOP and know then you can see if there gaps in game uh that'll help speed things along but whoever is doing the task do the SOP the next time just the next time you're doing it just write it down step by step don't leave any room for interpretation um this is how it's going to be done and if there there is an A or B situation if you see this then you do that if you see that then you do that there's a lot less of that than people think in their minds they think like oh but you have to look at this you have to decide that not really not really there are there are interpretation times but there are ways to do that and you can sop all of that and the more you can do.
James Dooley:
Sounds good right anyway I asked the community on Twitter and on LinkedIn and I got quite a few DMS for questions to ask you so we're going to go quick fire questions and then you can go through it so Kyle you can ask a Google engineer one question on how the algorithms work what do you ask him.
Kyle Roof:
I want to know when concurrent factors kick in because there are times you know you could do something and it's not going to work work and it's not going to work because another Factor isn't present so when when are concurrent what's the first one I want to know the first one that it kicks off is it is a threshold with traffic is it the type of keyword is it some combination I want to know what is the first concurrent factor that kicks off uh and then we can really we can get some knowledge out of that and grow because then we can start to say like okay we know we don't need to spend time on this in this Ser because those factors don't exist here and we can just focus on this on the other we know we need to work doubly hard over here because these are things are in play we need to worry about these concurrent factors so that's what that's what I'd like to ask about.
James Dooley:
So one that that leads on nicely to the next one actually by you previously said on with Gail Brittain that the absence of a ranking factor is the number one ranking Factor do you still stand by that statement and obviously you was then talking about co concurrent kind of factors and stuff like that is that what your still philosophy is within the team and the what you that.
Kyle Roof:
That comes from uh lee Witcher who's a very smart SEO really bright guy has a lot of good things to say and he found that uh several years ago and yeah so it's the idea of let's say there are 10 things you need to do uh should you hone in and nail four or five of them or should you do a little bit in all of them and what what it comes out to is you should do a little bit in all of them that's what what it comes down to and it goes along the lines with some tests that I ran from years and years and years ago you can't swap signals you can't replace one signal let's say you see that you need X number of H2S and X number of h3s let's say uh three and three you can't do six of one yeah you need to do three and three and then that's that's a critically important note like you have to fulfill what Google's expecting for each of those signal areas and you can still win don't get me wrong you can still win with the six but you will do better and you have a better chance of winning and ranking higher if you do the three and three.
James Dooley:
Kyle you are able to turn the dial up or down on a specific ranking Factor within the algorithms what would you do and why.
Kyle Roof:
I've been saying this and think of this for years uh they should do better measuring clicks on links um that would eliminate all Spam let's say you've got a link on a dr10 and 50 people have clicked through it and then you've got a link on a dr80 and nobody's seen it which is actually more valuable to the web it's the link on the dr10 raise that one up and give that priority and don't worry about and ignore the dr8 and it appears from the leak actually they have the ability to do this it might do it in certain situations I think it would eliminate all Spam and would actually be a more fair representation I know the original concept of Google was that links are votes and essentially they've said that this person has looked at that site they've got their kind of realize it' be good if people will go and they've done an editorial process voting for that site but we know in reality that's not how it works yeah at all that that that's a grand idea idea that just isn't reality so but what is reality people do click on links and they go to different places so if they evaluated how many people are actually coming through a particular link they could see if that link is valuable or not give it a a waiting and then that would I think eliminate nearly all Spam level the playing field uh get rid of a lot of the problems and headaches that they have and actually make it better for all people involved so that's what I would do.
James Dooley:
Do you think the reason why they might not do that CU that just seems like a very logical answer do you think the reason why they might not be doing that is because of the the money it might cost to track information and data.
Kyle Roof:
Yeah it's a money I think they feel that they're getting an approximate result with what they have and so it it's it's just a cost issue.
James Dooley:
So I mean because obviously they have got I don't know whether it's it's in play or not but they've got the reasonable Surfer pattern that it what's the likliness of them clicking on that link so if this is the bottom of the 5,000 word article they kind they're saying if it's at top it's got more likly it's going to be clicked therefore it now passes more weight and stuff and that's kind of what they're trying to do but they just it's just a prediction model correct game as opposed to whether the page has got clicks going through to it or not but yeah I completely agree with you I think traffic traffic through your links should bear more weight than what the Dr is of of the site so to speak so I'll move to one of the questions halfway down on it one because one of them then says if you feel that that is important do you also try to make certain within your agency that obviously you're using page optimizer pro to optimize your content but what I find is a lot of people don't try to optimize their guest posts would you are you always trying to optimize your guest post and rank the guest posts almost I'm not saying like a parasite SEO article but you're trying to rank the guest post to give it actual chances that it could then get those get the traffic through to your website.
Kyle Roof:
I think that's a much better play I think that's the right play obviously that's more expensive and takes more time um but if you can do that I think you're going to end up with better results so I would I would recommend doing it.
James Dooley:
Intent can you break the Ser if you feel that the current intent that it's showing isn't the right intent now obviously theyve Google are using a lot of like behavioral signals and stuff like that to say what is needed they throw in a wild cow to see like what do we feel the intent for that search is is the ways that you know that you can break the so for an intense shift I've heard you talk about this I personally haven't been able to do it so my answer from my experience is no I don't think you can teach Google anything new um my unpopular opinion is I don't believe in intent I don't think we need to think of the intent of the person searching we need to think of what Google thinks the intent is and that's what Google's showing and that's what I would work is show is giving Google a page that it's expecting I think you've talked about um being able to change in uh maybe what shows up in the Ser in in terms of like the style of page essentially the intent of of what what that person is looking for but I personally haven't had any success doing that.
Kyle Roof:
On my front it's it's via ma like doing Ma Mass different signals um but yeah it's a tricky way I just didn't know whether you could try to break it using any methods with regards to perect I really would would try to avoid trying to teach Google something new you know I would I would look at what's there and then I would focus on giving Google what it's expecting so IM imitate and then just improve upon basically.
James Dooley:
Exactly yeah what is more important in your opinion you have to choose one this is what's come from one of the things content or links.
Kyle Roof:
Content I've fired 20,000 Links at a blank and you can't get it to rank for anything so that's a great answer.
James Dooley:
Building links for E e-commerce do you hit Pages do you hit links to product pages just the homepage cat's a great or you sprinkle it everywhere.
Kyle Roof:
If I have to choose one of those I'll do the homepage uh because you probably have decent enough navigation that it's going to get through where you need to go if I could choose two then I'd go to a category page and then I get more specific after that but if I had to choose one I'd just do the H page.
James Dooley:
Do you try to optimize your gu post the rank we spoke upon that content freshness is there a specific time you should be updating your content every 3 months every 6 months I think I know what you're going to say here every 12 months or I'm going to add a little bit to the end of it or do you just set up pop Watch Dog and then that will tell you when to do it.
Kyle Roof:
If you don't have a method if you don't have a method I would be I would be evaluating things every 3 months if you don't have a method but obviously if you've signed on to the most powerful onpage tool and in the history of onpage tools then you're fine with watch it'll tell you when you need to do it.
James Dooley:
Do follow links work as part of your link building yes or no.
Kyle Roof:
Absolutely they do but there's a concurrent Factor uh the pays at sending the uh no follow needs to be getting traffic.
James Dooley:
Masterminds or conferences which do you prefer.
Kyle Roof:
Oh I know you're a mastermind guy I uh I can't stand them I'll take the Mastermind you know I like them fine it's just they suck a they take a lot of energy they take a lot of energy because you want to be invested you want to help people you want to be in it and I often don't have that energy because of like I'm speaking or I'm organizing something and it it takes a lot for me to do it so just for that reason I'll take I'll take the conference.
James Dooley:
Do you know what I've I've slightly changed my tune a little bit right I've I've said a lot about masterminds are so much better than you're the Mastermind guy but but recently I've been to one or two conferences and there's been some great speakers and I've enjoyed listening to the talk and I've been in one or two masterminds where and I don't mean this in an arrogant way I'm the most intelligent person in the room and it obviously wasn't a very intelligent room so but that's that's not a good Mastermind at that point so at that point I feel like I've been spoiled over the years with some amazing people that I've shared a room with and you've elevated each other's knowledge and shared information and I think Rec recently some of the masterminds I've been in haven't been very high level so to speak and some of the talks I've watched at conferences have been very good so I've I have kind of changed my tune a little bit I still I still prefer masterm and being honest but you need to be in the right room with the right people.
Kyle Roof:
Let me qualify I want the conference hallway I want I want the networking in in in the conference hallway also though at SEO sonio we did um I was like okay we're going to do the the James dly twist and we had the uh the go around everybody talks for 5 minutes first so you know what people are doing at the table I gave you credit for innovating The Mastermind you you have advanced the world of masterminds with your with with your techniques.
James Dooley:
Best best SEO conference in the world if you can only attend one for the people that have never been to one which one would it be.
Kyle Roof:
Oh you're hurting me man I I own a conference um I it's got to be it's got to be Chang my SEO I will plug SEO Estonia if you can't get all the way to It's So Far Away who can go there but you can probably get to it still if you're in Europe or the us but um I think the gold star is is Chang myo for sure.
James Dooley:
So Chango you feels the best in the world but obviously you have founded SEO and.
Kyle Roof:
Yeah there 800 people in that room and then on top of that there's got to be like another 1500 2,000 seos that just show up I think there were something like 65 70 events around the conference it it it's pretty full on for two three weeks there are people in my that just want to talk SEO that would love to meet you would love to grab lunch or a coffee or a beer or something and just like stuff is happening like that's that's pretty electric and and it's the size of town where you really just run into everybody all the time um it's that's a special thing that doesn't exist if you can't get to that special event then definitely come see us at SEO Estonia which is really set up for marketing uh for for networking excuse me yeah you will meet people you you'll have a good time.
James Dooley:
So it's been absolute blast Kyle um it's been a long one to be fair so wrapping up on a few areas some would say too long yeah pop optimization makees sure you're doing it pop features eat makes sure you're ticking all the boxes watch doog make certain you've got that set up with regard regards to content freshness or if you need to be updating the content make certain by October November everyone's buying the SEO board game oh yeah and then IMG training get yourself in it and all the latest tests are within IMG as well so Kyle you've been an absolute Legend where can people come to find you if they don't already know.
Kyle Roof:
Page Optimizer dopro imgc courses and uh Kyle roof.com all those are ways you can get a hold of me.
James Dooley:
Well I appreciate your time Kyle and I've absolutely loved it and I will see you very shortly I'm sure another SEO conference in the next couple of months awesome thanks so much man I appreciate it cheers yeah cheers Kyle cheers