Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
We talk to the people that make the gaming industry happen, past & present. From casual players to industry CEOs. Gaming for the Culture is for the people by the people. Gaming mobile to VR!
Powered By Gifted Sounds Network
you
you
to today's episode of Gaming for the Culture.
I'm your host, Janae Bene.
You are now rocking with the hostess with the mostess and I have some really, really
amazing guests.
And I've spoken to them before.
The last time we spoke, it was over an interview table.
So if you saw the post that went out today, I said, let's talk beyond the interview table
and really get to know them.
One of them I've known for longer and I can't wait to get into that because I used to
be...
a terror a little bit unknowingly, not on purpose.
used to just, anyways, I don't want to give too much away.
Without further ado, I would like to introduce my guests, Kat and Carmen.
Do you guys want to introduce yourselves?
So yeah, I'm Kat Shields Moon.
uh By day, I am the senior PR manager at Shell Games.
uh By night, I like horror movies and bad jokes and puns.
uh I've been in gaming for about 10 years.
Gosh, it's been that long.
And the beginning of my journey is actually when I met Janae, so more on that later.
uh But yeah, I've always had a love for the written word and communications.
I started in journalism when I was in high school at the local newspaper.
That carried me through college.
And then the industry went, and there were no more newspaper jobs.
So I pivoted to.
public relations, working in a couple of corporate shops before I was like, you know what,
my soul needs feeding.
And I went to Atlanta for a graduate program in writing.
And that led me into my first role in the gaming industry as a video games journalist.
funny how things come around full circle.
uh And ever since then, I've been bebopping around different places in gaming.
So that's taken me from games journalism to community management to...
eSports to putting together the big grand eSports competitions and conventions.
And now I'm chilling in the land of virtual reality with a headset on my face and a song
on my heart.
So I'm flipping over to Carmen.
Thanks, Pat.
So I am Carmen DeMint.
My pronouns are she and her, and I am the senior TA, for those who don't know what that
is, talent acquisition specialist at Shell Games as well.
Wow, my trajectory to be in this industry is all over the place.
So for those of you who are aspiring to get in, it is not a straight shot for some of us.
I have worn a lot of hats.
I'll name off a few.
I am a French trained chef.
I went to medical school and all through that journey, I had a love of games.
I go back to the Atari days uh with the understanding that women could not do this.
I had no idea that this was a career, no idea that you could go to college uh for such
things because in my time you had the blue aisle, the pink aisle and home ec.
Whew, that's taking you way back.
But throughout that career journey,
I built the skills around people, soft skills, business, biz dev, which allowed me to
integrate myself as a ah personal representative uh or PR agent for huge names in industry
and also work in collaboration like Kat said, for conventions and doing tracks.
I had the privilege of working uh and supporting the first couple of years of BlurredCon.
And if you know, you know.
ah And then a kind of a full circle moment for me, uh Kat dared me to put an application
in at Shell Games and look at me now.
So I really truly love the studio's uh commitment to DEI, being a diversity recruiter, a
person who is neurodivergent or neuro spicy as I like to say, and an advocate for opening
doors for others and I've dedicated my career.
I am excited about this podcast.
Carmen, really quickly, this has to be one of the most unrelated questions, but you
brought up French cuisine.
I went to Paris and I didn't like anything I had.
What's going on?
Like, help me to understand that experience.
I did you go recently?
Yeah, 2023 or 2023 or 2024, December, January.
Yeah, I really think that classic French cuisine, and when I say that, everything with
cream and butter is where I was trained, has been going out the window in consideration of
the healthy way of eating, which does not taste the same to your palate.
So depending on the entrees that you had, the restaurant you went to, and the chef, come
on, it may have not have been your cup of tea.
Now, French pastries?
Girl.
I would roll out of there weighing 10 more pounds every other day.
ah But big secret, most of us chefs cannot bake.
And to tell you why, because we want to peek, stir and poke.
Baking is not the thing.
That's interesting because I can agree with the pastries because I didn't like macaroons
until I tried them in France.
And then I was like, okay.
Everyone else is just wrong.
Like good to know.
Yeah.
know, the like crunchy and soft or like that, like, yeah, the variety of texture at one.
Um, I'm a macaroon connoisseur put that on my resume as well.
I've, I've eaten enough.
Um,
But no, thank you for that because I just kind of ate at a restaurant and the vibes were
super cute, right?
I remember walking past it as I come from an e-sports lounge.
was like, was like, that restaurant looks really cute.
I'm going to try it.
And it was like a steak and some caramelized onions and then some fries.
I have to stop saying French fries.
I don't want anybody to get upset.
um
and like some mayo and then they had ketchup and I was like I'm just gonna go ahead and
make a burger sauce because I don't want to eat just mayo like stop putting just mayo on
everything I didn't like that so thanks for that I needed that like you know you don't
want to get on the internet and be like parvezeans what's up with you guys is this what
you're eating all the time like should I have just gone to like a Nigerian restaurant and
then like yeah you know just give me the jalape rice and the chicken and
I was trying to try something different.
I will say that if you go to a foreign country, most of the time you would do better
having street food or a small mom and pop something because they're keeping to their
traditional recipes and also they're more friendly.
They're more engaging ah than a sit down style.
And let me just say we're all not made of money.
We do not need to go and spend a hundred dollars on a steak dinner.
That piece of meat tastes the same no matter where you go.
Carmen's preaching you guys.
yeah, I 100 % agree.
I think it's really cool to learn about all of the spaces that you've been in because it
seems like we should have overlapped.
uh I was there the first year of BlurtCon.
I was the speaker.
I had about like two panels.
And so that was kind of cool to hear that you're also a part of that.
And
If you're up to talking about it or hearing maybe some stuff that you haven't heard, I can
also bring that up.
But you know, we don't have to.
But BlurredCon was not seen as a success, but it's still going on.
Right?
Like, I know a lot of people are always going to complain about conventions.
Now it wasn't like the, um, the My Little Pony con, right?
Was that it?
That was just kind of like a blow up.
pool of like balls or something, but I can't even remember.
There's been so much stuff.
there's been so many things in the gaming industry.
And Kat, I feel like you've been here longer than 10 years because I'm pushing 12.
So if I'm pushing 12, I think you are at least at 12 or like 13.
That's why I went to school for communications.
I say that all the time!
I say that all the time.
I'm like, who has to do math?
I know language, but not grammar.
I can't help you with grammar.
Grammar is a bit rough for me.
20 years plus and I stopped counting at 20.
And the reason why I'm in operations is because I'm left-handed, I can't draw, I don't
like Excel, and math is not made for people like me.
Calculators are made for people like me.
I love that.
If it's not page numbers or money, I ain't counting it.
Come on now.
You know, I'm doing a little bit better at sales.
m I'm getting, I'm getting the 60, 40%.
I'm doing the math for a sale, but anything else, I'm like, let me Google, like, let me
try to figure out the formula so I can, I can punch in the numbers.
Like, ah people, my people.
I get it.
I get it.
So heavy.
Um, let's talk about Kat.
Like I was just saying, I feel like.
you've been in it just a teeny bit longer because I had to count the other day and I was
like, oh, okay, 2013 to 2025.
It's 12 years.
That's 12 years.
Then it that that is accurate then.
It's like I started as a games journalist and then boom there was today.
So that's right.
okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That was the year I graduated.
Uh, I had graduated college and I kid you not.
I graduated college.
I had a broadcast journalism, like a communications degree, and I applied for 100 jobs,
like a day.
I applied for 100 jobs a day.
And sometimes because I was applying so much, I would do that thing where I'd be like,
mixing up the names of like the stations that I was trying to apply to because I'm
talking, I was applying to all 50 states.
All 50 states, I was even applying like overseas, like Ireland, uh pretty much the UK,
like anywhere they were speaking English, I was like me, me, me, me, me, I need to use my
degree, but I also need to not be in Illinois.
And my last couple of years were surrounded by me just like playing video games.
And so I started making up the term video game journalist thinking that I was just like,
I'm just going to make it up.
And it turns out it's a real thing.
So I graduated like May, and then I think.
2014 is when I found like Game Skinny and Game Skinny is I think they still exist.
Am I?
They were acquired by another company, but they still exist.
I like this.
Love that.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I remember writing and being at a pivotal moment in my life where I had lived on my own
for the first time.
I'm just now experiencing the world and learning that it is completely unfair.
Completely everything I do is like not helpful.
Never was I going to ever make it by standing on my own two feet, right?
Pulling yourself up from your bootstraps just didn't feel like a thing.
Not even just in the gaming industry, but just being like a black woman.
I was like 22.
I think I was 22.
Like how terrible.
And I just remember being so like,
Hulk mad, like Hulk smash, Hulk, you know, do what they want to do because a part of the
reason why I got rejected for broadcast journalism was because of my hair.
My hair is pretty natural.
And I remember wanting to like go natural and not wanting it to have to be straight.
And that was like a big no-no.
But like my sew-ins were such a mess and like my scalp was so sensitive and I was just
looking all around a mess, like all around completely like
like maybe you shouldn't be on TV anyway if you're gonna look like that, like if you're
not gonna go, you know, constantly get your hair done.
And so that attributed, contributed all the tributes to like me wanting to be in the
gaming industry after seeing all these girlies on E3.
and G4 and their hair has a bunch of colors and they have a bunch of piercings.
And know, me, a classically trained journalist being like, why aren't they reading that
right?
You know what I mean?
Having notes for them.
watching and I'm like, nobody's doing it right.
They need to give me the job.
Like I'm the only person who can really read gaming news, right?
Never have done it before.
But I like had some demo reels with like NBC Chicago.
and NBC Sports back when it was like Comcast Sportsnet.
And so when I got to Game Skinny, I was just feeling this massive weight of just being
like oppressed.
I feel like I can't write what I want.
And I had been dealing with like colorism.
I had been dealing with colorism like within the organization that I was in.
I had been dealing with just like...
Things I didn't even have words for, like at the time, bit of ableism.
You I knew about the racism, I knew about the colorism.
Just kind of learning about the sexism, just, you know, now learning about like ableism.
And then on top of that, I've been neurodivergent my whole life and I didn't know.
You know, I'm coming to the end and I just want to know what did that look like from the
other end because I specifically remember that like I specifically remember having to
having to like Talk to the people at game skinny.
I'm so excited to be No, you did not skip to a new video and this isn't one of those
low-budget YouTube ads
This is our very first ad for Gaming for the Culture and thanks so much for witnessing it.
So this episode is brought to you by the C.
Ho Doro C300 Gaming Chair Review.
I was sent this chair a couple of months ago and I've gotten a chance to sit in it.
And one thing about me and reviews is that I like to take my time.
So I've been sitting in this chair for about six months and I have a whole video of where
I put it together.
tell you exactly what I think about it.
So after you're done with this episode, the link will be in the description.
Go ahead over to my channel and check it out.
All right, let's get back to the episode.
just stepped into the role as the games journalist uh training program coordinator.
um Before that, I was one of the editors on team and did like internal communications.
um And uh
It was interesting and I'll break that down into a couple of points.
So one, a lot of what you're saying, Janaye, is what I have felt or experienced,
especially coming right out of school.
And you have...
all of the world in front of you, right?
You're, you're promised the world.
It's almost like here, here's your expensive piece of paper.
Now go and do whatever it is that your soul desires.
And then you get out there and a truck rolls by and it splashes a wave of water on you.
You're like, that's okay.
I'm going to keep going.
And then, you know, somebody just, right.
It takes, takes your purse or whatever.
And it's just like this onslaught of like,
What the heck moments as you realize that the world as it is.
As you thought it was, it's not as promising as you thought it was.
There's, there's a lot of rules, hidden rules that are not clearly communicated,
especially if you're a minority or a double minority or anything.
And that, that are at play immediately.
And even though I feel like my parents did a great job of saying like, it's not the same
for you.
You really don't understand the depth of what that means.
until you're trying to stand on your own two feet for the first time as professional in
any industry.
m So when you rolled in through the doors at Gameskini in a wave of applications for new
journalists that are like, hey, I want to hone or up or learn how to break in as a games
journalist in the industry and worked with us to create content for the website.
um
distinctly remember like, she has a lot to say.
And that's, that's not a bad thing.
That was a good thing.
It's just, I saw pitches from you that I have never seen from anybody else, which I loved
because I was like, that's what I low key would want to write about.
So, um, there was just a general overall passion and excitement that was there.
And I had no idea that you were at such a low point, honestly, because it wasn't.
it wasn't visible in the way that you presented yourself.
You were bright, you were upbeat, you were energetic, you were enthusiastic.
You just kept going.
And I think the most interesting thing was, and this is not a slight on you at all, I'm
just keeping it 100 being transparent is we had people of varying kind of skill levels
throughout the program.
So we had some people that were
super polished and professional, barely needed anything.
There were some people who needed some kind of structural changes just to make sure that
everything was cohesive or there was flow to the story.
There were people who didn't know how to write at all.
And it was just like, I'm gonna spend an hour and a half on this next piece.
I know it.
And the one after that.
But with you, it was like this fire hose of ideas and like, but what about this?
And was like, you have about 20 different things.
that could be standalone articles in this one article.
And we can't do that, but let's focus on this piece and kind of draw it out.
you know, working with you, it took a lot of work, not from a standpoint of this is
somebody that doesn't know what they're doing.
It's from the standpoint of somebody who has so much to offer and nowhere to put it.
And I distinctly remember multiple times, you know, during our editorial meeting,
Like, well, you know, she's taking up so much of your time having to go through these
articles and parse them out and polish them up and make sense.
But it was always, I saw me and you.
And it's like, we're, we're going to keep working with her because her ideas are there.
Her presence is there.
She deserves a platform.
And this is a training program.
So if she can't get support at this level, then what is the point of the program?
Because then we would just be hiring professionals, wouldn't we?
Um, so what that looked like TLDR, um, on my side of things was just a real humbling
experience of like, I know what that feels like.
I was there not too long ago and how fortunate I am to be a black woman helping or talking
to, or in the presence of another black woman in this industry, you know, and whatever
energy or guidance or advice or whatever it is that I can give you, it's for you.
because ultimately it's for me and everybody else that looks like we are has had similar
experiences.
And we've been in this a long time and it's come a long way.
uh There's more opportunity for people to really speak their piece.
There's more platforms and avenues that are gate kept, which I love in terms of
articulating uh unique perspectives or lived experiences.
or just have you thought about this, this is counter to the mainstream narrative, but it's
actually a true story.
So can I talk about it for a second?
There's still a lot, there's still so much work to be done, which is why I'm incredibly
grateful for people like Carmen who dedicate themselves to making the industry more
diverse.
Like she's out there like, hey you come here, I got something to talk to you about this.
You know, so it's in.
There's a level of empowerment and education that undergirds everything that we do, right?
So even though I'm in public relations, my job is to talk about what the company's doing,
share news, beats, know, maintain public image and yada, yada, yada.
There's always a level of you can do this too, you know, just for me being in a seat like
this.
And it's...
It's a lot of responsibility, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Just because, I don't know, it just feels like even if, no matter who I'm helping, I'm
helping younger me in some way.
And I think Carmen and I, before we went online, we were talking about imposter syndrome
and how we really don't like talking about ourselves.
Um, and it is imposter syndrome, right?
Because it's kind of beaten out of you that you have anything meaningful to say, like in a
lot of different ways for most of your life, you know, like it's like, let's, let's refine
the quirks.
Let's get rid of the cringe humor.
Let's, you like dad jokes.
You're a horrible person.
I'm just going to roll my eyes at everything you say, you know, so, you know, you, you
like horror, everything.
Are you a, you know, a devil worshiper?
And it's just like, there's.
You spend so long being made to fit into a box that the work it takes to get out of that
box is 10 times harder than the sanding that's done to fit you in it.
And it's like you're picking up little granular pieces of yourself, like the entire way,
trying to get back to who you are.
And I'm rambling now, so I'm going to stop rambling and I carve it.
You go, girl, go.
think there's a lot of things that you said that are spot on, especially if they can't see
it, they won't be it, right?
And I'm thankful for having some really great mentors that were there for me and still
there for me along the way that have been championing, championing, championing, that's
not a word.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, thank you.
And paved the way for me
in a way to show me how to have empathy, uh navigating spaces and places where I don't fit
in.
we've, you you've talked about that, Janae, you've hinted on all the isms.
um One big ism for me is colorism, as you said.
I am what they call high yellow.
I didn't get as much melanin as some other people.
And I can be incognito in other spaces, but
I've received colorism on the other end where I'm not accepted, but it does give me a
unique perspective of being able to, and we know we don't like this, educate others
because they don't know who they're talking to or know my background.
Now, I'm not gonna be ignorant with someone.
I'm just going to inform them that I'm offended and try to hopefully explain that to them.
Now, if they don't get it, um there's things that happen.
We won't talk about that here.
But I like the fact that I'm able to toe the line with being able to share my experiences
and then also being able to be thankful for having some of that privilege.
And what that privilege has allowed me to do is a lot of what you see now.
Being able to meet people like yourself, and I know we've had an interview situation where
hopefully that you felt it was fair and equitable and you felt supported.
um And I don't gatekeep and like I've said many times before I say what I mean and I said
what I said ah And for me, I am a straight shooter.
I'm a type 1a personality And sometimes my alter ego comes out and as you know being in a
professional setting All we got to do is tilt our head a certain way ah And then it's a
problem But I've learned to hone
that responsibility of representation within a professional setting, which has gotten me,
you know, thus far in my career and owning my own business and being able to not only
advocate, ah but check some people.
We'll just leave it at that.
ah And then leave them in the back, right?
They don't have to be in my circle.
If they are not with this program, they could keep on going, keep on rocking, not rocking
with you.
uh Which brings me to Kat.
Kat and I have been, wow, it's crazy because we've been orbiting the same groups.
We've been in the same conversations.
We've heard each other's voices for so long.
ah And then here we are working together in a capacity that allows us to combine our
powers for good, not evil, and be able to navigate in a studio setting that is committed
to the things that we're talking about.
but also I have the privilege of representing this studio in a way that shows and puts the
rubber to the road.
And awesomely enough, the PR person I work with that supports me in that engagement is
also one of my friends, right?
We are able to combine our powers and make sure that the messaging is appropriate and also
have the privilege to give a little pushback and be like, hey, wait, the wording of this
could be contextualized as something different, you know, and being able to give that
perspective is important, especially as we are paving the way, right?
Give everybody their flowers here for other people coming behind us.
And I take that so 100%, like Kat said, with the responsibility that comes with it.
I'm not perfect now, don't get me wrong.
And if I say something to someone and it is not striking a chord the right way, I fully
expect somebody to check me.
Like, don't put me on blast on the internet now, but let me know, right?
I'm gonna cancel you Carmen.
No, I mean I came from I was around when Gamer Day happened and believe me you
I have so many pizzas over my house.
My daughter was like mom what is going on I have a twitch channel where I ran live
broadcasts every Friday night for a couple hours and let me tell you Unbeknownst to me
because I'm doing the live podcast and Janae props to you because I did sound I did audio
I did video I did the production as we are talking on this podcast They cut us out and ran
live porn for like four minutes
Did I know?
No, but Twitch was like, oh, no, no, no, no.
Channel is done.
So, I mean, just the things that people do when they're keyboard assassins is interesting.
But again, we've come a long way.
There is a lot of women in this industry that we stand on their shoulders and we have
taken the baton to say, not on my watch.
And it's so important today and this time.
to be a leader if you can.
And if you can't, support those leaders that are willing to speak out on your behalf.
Let them know, the people in your lives, give them their, call them up, be like, thank
you, you know, go on the internet, tag them.
If you feel so inclined that they are doing the things that are in line with your
perspective and you appreciate them, give it to them.
Don't wait for a holiday, don't wait for their birthday, because it's so important now
more than ever.
I love that.
love that.
um You guys are saying some really amazing things.
And that's also why I do this podcast because I get to talk to whoever will let me talk to
them.
But the people that I choose, I choose for reason.
um meanwhile, I just started to get to know Carmen a bit more because you also help with
the virtual job fair that we just put on through the IGDA Foundation.
And you guys
have made like a personal impact on me, but I also see the signaling happening on your end
that I know that it's not just me that you guys have made an impact on.
So a lot of the people that I talk to, they've made a personal impact on me, or I can just
see the good that they're doing in the community.
the point of this podcast is to create that evergreen content, right?
Like say you guys go on to be president, I don't know, right?
I would be so happy to be like, well, I have a podcast with them and these are the people
that are behind the screen and this is that person.
I'm imagining like Futurama with like the heads in the jars, but anything could happen
really and truly.
um But yeah, like, and then just hearing about what I looked like on the other side of
Game Skinny, I think it was just really like,
complete because it was like, you know, it took me a couple of years to be like, oh, like
you are a menace.
Like it took me a couple of years to be like, oh, like you could have done a lot of things
better.
And you know that now, and I, I, I promise you, I, don't even know if you remember if you
got it, but I sent sorry emails.
I was like, Hey, I just want to like apologize for the time because I just realized that I
could have just done this better or that better.
And they were like, such and such either isn't here anymore or like, like I'll tell them
or something.
But I remember being like, oh, I could have just calmed down.
could have just, I could have just not, but you know, that, that passion that you're
talking about is it's there.
And it's, I don't want to say, I don't know how any L how else to be, because there is a
put together version, even the, even now I could be like more put together, but like,
The genuineness that I show, I like when it comes across.
it's like never for clout, because I know that's been the new thing, especially speaking
of, you know, existing around and after Gamergate.
It's like being, it's like, I'm a woman who supports women.
And it's like, you hate men.
And it's like, whoa, let us just breathe.
Nobody said that or you know, I support black women.
hate white women.
Like, whoa, nobody said that, you know, so I.
Tapsic positivity is a thing.
know, today, let me just say from one girl spicy person to another.
ah When you're 22 years old and a person who doesn't understand that they're under the
neurodiversity umbrella, it speaks volumes to what Kat was saying and where your um
identification in yourself.
First of all, you're in your 20s.
we're supposed to have our head on a swivel and look at all the things.
But being able to know where to harness that superpower now is such a growth moment for
you because I am so neuro spicy in all kinds of ways.
And what I've learned to do is harness that mind that's all over the place.
Now it takes some time, but to try to compartmentalize.
all the things that are going on in your head.
And when I say that, it is for me like having a bunch of windows open on your computer.
At any given time, there's probably 10 to 15.
So focusing on what's going on here, when you got all these ideas, because somebody said
peanut butter and jelly, and you're like, yeah, but you gotta use wheat bread.
And then when you cut the crust off and they're still talking, you have to learn to
control that.
But also do not belittle yourself and think you are not doing
whatever it is you're supposed to be doing in your career, it just takes time to
understand yourself and be patient.
Do not be hard on yourself because it is not a disability.
We just think differently.
And probably 73%, I can't remember what the actual number is of creative people in this
industry are neurodiverse.
We have created and we're running this industry.
It just manifests in different ways.
mean,
We are wonderfully different.
love that you said that.
I'm telling you.
It's the carbon of a show.
Banger after banger.
It's so interesting that you say that because I saw a TikTok video that said, people with
ADD and ADHD, what job are you doing that gets you paid?
And I was like, I'm neurodivergent and I'm an entrepreneur.
And I think that is the best course of action for me.
And one of the last interviews I got was with you guys.
It was at shell games.
think that was, and that doesn't mean I haven't applied to other jobs.
Like I've just, I've always knew that I've done better as an entrepreneur, but you know,
trying, I'm just trying to be awesome at UW too.
Right.
I'm just trying to get, like get in where I fit in as far as health, health insurance is
concerned without having to do all the extra steps.
so, um, you know, I used mentioned earlier about like, hope.
you felt like the interview process was equitable and I really do.
feel like I got a sense of, because that was my first time meeting Carmen, right?
So it's like, okay, well I knew Kat already.
So I'm like, and literally on the job application, they're like, why do you want to work
here?
And I was like, Kat's here.
What are you talking about?
Like, I know you do really cool thing, but Kat's here.
And if Kat's here, that means you guys are doing like more stuff.
Like if Kat's a part of this like app.
atmosphere.
Like that means that you guys are doing something really good.
And of course I elaborated, but there was probably like, okay, fan girl, calm down.
And it was like, no, it means that you guys are actually like standing for something and
you're doing something because you've been there for a minute.
So, um, yeah, I think the process was really great.
think, you know, um, it would have been a great opportunity to like work with you, with
both of you.
I, I just wrote an article.
I literally.
just wrote an article.
Probably, I probably sent it out yesterday or the day before.
And I don't know when this is getting aired, so whatever.
But it was pretty much me talking about the performativeness of allyship and what it means
to like work with other uh minorities, but you know, having them kind of be like the
majority minority, if that makes sense, right?
uh Because I've had experiences, especially like as a contractor.
of working with other women or other queer women or whatever the case is.
And if they lead their company, you're kind of like, I get to work with women.
ah I get to kind of make a difference in a sense.
some of the things that I would probably have to hide.
you know, or try to negate like, me being like neurodivergent or like me being like, like
I have a disability and I'm getting like a flare up today.
Like, let me just kind of power through it.
And then, you know, look like a zombie and somebody's like, is something wrong?
I was like, okay, I won't have to do this because like, you know, I'm working with people
who understand that.
But at the end of the day, you're still black.
Like you're still black.
There's unbiased, like there's unbiased, the unchecked bias is happening.
And it's a constant thing actually in like my work life to experience being like thrown
under the bus to be like, oh, we're women, we're women, we're women, you're black, sorry.
Like, you know, like I'm not gonna be supportive.
I'm not gonna stick my neck out for you.
Like I'm not gonna do those things.
so this working with you guys, I don't think would be a like.
that experience, or I know that it wouldn't be like that.
And so I believe that's also what I was excited for too.
So it was like a really good interview and it was a really good way to see what the
dynamic would be like.
And you guys were also laughing a lot.
Like you were today at the start of this too.
And I was like, I was like, well, that's really good because if anyone's ever starting a
job and then, you know, you kind of be like, ha ha ha.
in the beginning and later on you'd be like, ha ha, ha ha, right, like get out of my face.
It didn't feel like that.
It didn't feel like that.
So yeah.
for one, appreciate it.
let me just say that, uh you know, I put Kat on my application too.
So props to her.
Also in consideration of your interview, uh you interviewed well.
I know everybody's nervous when they interview and a lot of people are like, my God,
because it's show games.
But also I do not use the term interview.
I use the term.
Conversation or kiki because I don't want to go to the dentist That's what it makes it
sound like when you do an interview a lot of people have interview PTSD They they just are
like, my god I just got ran over as you say cat by a bus at another interview and what are
these people expecting?
oh And for me no matter where I go I do not want anyone to have to mask and what that
means today is you said it you go into somewhere and you got to hide who you are
I have never hidden from anybody and I do not believe in the aspect of changing your hair,
we got the Crown Act, or you cannot be your true authentic self because that makes people
unhappy.
And as I tell my junior achiever, you need to find a place and a position and finish
college, but a role that allows you to come in and be your authentic self because you're
have to be there like you're married.
You better love it like it and then some because we spend, I'll say, more than 50 % of our
job than we do with our families.
And having that work-life balance, whether it's your job, having a best practice that does
that, you need to have that perspective for yourself as someone who is the oldest person
in the room and has worked corporate jobs, has done the crunching.
uh Shell allows me to have that perspective and balance and I am able to do things outside
of work.
ah I am probably 20 minutes from where LeBron James School is.
I volunteer and do a lot of things.
I'm able to advocate for kids who are in YMCA, ah kids who have that economic strife,
whether it's monetary or otherwise, be able to present technology to them in a way that is
digestible.
And they can figure it out and know that this is something they can do.
Right.
mean, it's still technology.
We're up to AI.
Now I know I feel about it, but kids are smart.
mean, you've got somebody that's under 10 and you give them their iPhone, they'll give it
back and you've got all kinds of things on there.
don't know how to use.
And the responsibility of the internet.
One of my favorite things to do is hit up a company and ask them.
How are you making change?
What are you doing for a responsibility?
Especially if I'm working with a company and they come to me for my consulting.
I mean, put them on the carpet.
Just because they're making something and making money off of those of us who buy the
product doesn't mean that we can't ask questions.
ah This climate that we're in today has a lot of people thinking about what they're gonna
do, how they're gonna do it, how they're gonna get there.
And I would say I do not envy the kids coming out of college because this market right now
is flooded and it's so hard to stand out.
And it's so hard to disseminate yourself and not mask when we're all supposed to like, Kat
said, fit in that box.
We are always and have been a square peg trying to fit in a round hole.
And unfortunately, I don't see that changing anytime soon, but we got our people, we got
our culture, speaking of which.
I love the name on the podcast.
Thank you for inviting us.
Yes, thank you.
This is the realest conversation I've probably had in a minute.
And I want to piggyback off what Carmen said about, and you too, Janee, about like
authenticity and how important it is to find a place that acknowledges and accepts your
authentic self.
Because I think that's there.
There's a lot there.
I don't think that any company or any person for that reason is for that matter rather is
for that matter.
is going to make a space for your authentic self if you don't do the work to figure out
what that is.
wait.
But I mean, seriously, because I remember and it's crazy.
I'm not shy about age.
I'm 36 years old.
And I remember when I was in high school, I used to watch anime.
I would stay up for adult swim.
Trigun was my thing.
know, Toonami after school was a bop.
Red got all.
mangas.
OG Blurreds.
Seriously, like you talk about just like a whole bookshelf full of pet shop of horrors,
fake, like all kinds of different Sayuki, whatever.
I used to draw, I used to write fan fiction.
Like, I didn't like that ending.
That's how I got my start writing was writing on fanfiction.net.
And sometimes I go back and read it like, dang girl, damn it, spicy.
Yeah, they're right.
You know, so I had all of this, right?
And then,
I went and even I grew up in like a rural area.
like not a ton of black people, mostly predominantly white country school, uh graduating
class, super small.
But even then it was like, I had my brother and my sister who were like blurting out with
me and my parents, they were gamers, you know, so they were playing Mist and the Rocketeer
and stuff like that.
So, and would get us like, you know, the...
uh
Curse Monkey Island series we would play through as a family and stuff like that.
So there was always that unit for me.
And it's just like, okay, well, you're making fun of me because I talk white, whatever
that means, but I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna play some D &D with my brother.
And it's gonna be okay.
But then like going through college and even I went to an HBCU and that was a level of
conforming.
It was like washing away all of that nerdiness because, you know, wearing.
a t-shirt with a whole bunch of Japanese characters on it wasn't cool.
But hey, brand name K-Swiss is R, and making sure that all your stuff matches.
So it was like a whole new learning curve, like in terms of, this is what it means to be
black, from somebody that only had their immediate family really to fall back upon.
And then after that, going out into the world and then going to...
A very, very diverse graduate program at SCAD with a whole bunch of just fantastically
weird and colorful, quirky, unabashedly themselves, like somebody wearing like an outfit
they made and it's like pink dinosaurs.
And it's just the most whimsical thing you've ever imagined.
Girl, I had whiplash like nobody's business.
You know, so it's like.
In that journey to your authentic self, think that you really, if you're in a supportive
environment, you get a sense for what that is early.
Those things are encouraged that make you different, that make you unique, that makes you
stand apart.
And then it's like you get out into society and to Carmen's point, you have expectations.
You're trying to blend in so that way when you're in a candidate pool,
you don't have an easy way to dismiss you outside of the 10 other things that you already
think, my name is spelled weird or my hair looks like this or whatever that you, you're
already like, well, I might not even get in the door because of these things that I really
don't have that much control over.
So let me not make it worse by saying, hey, you want to hear a dad joke?
You know, kind of thing like right at your interview.
As you're nervous, you're okay, by the way.
Exactly.
But I said all that to say, I have been trying to get back to my authentic self for years.
And I feel like I haven't really, I'm not there yet, but I'm better than I was when I got
out of school in my early 20s.
Definitely better.
My whole 20 something years, like, God bless them.
there's something magical.
Wouldn't.
Something magical about your dirty 30s.
But all that to say is that.
You have to have an unabashed appreciation for who you are and what makes you unique and
make room for your authentic self.
And that doesn't mean waiting on validation, permission, a company that's rolls out the
red carpet.
It's like, we have lunch and massage chairs and DEI or whatever that list of golden
opportunity looks like.
Because it wasn't until I was
out of bed, completely myself and all interactions across the board.
You're a millionaire, don't care.
You're still gonna get weird jokes.
you're a company I'm talking to, don't care.
You're still gonna get like weird giggles and I snort when I laugh.
you're this, don't care.
This is me.
And in that, you become more confident in who you are.
You don't seek to apologize.
You don't feel nervous.
And it's just kind of like, this is me and I know what I have to bring to the table.
So you either get on board with it or I'm just going to take this brilliance somewhere
else.
And I think that when you come from a place of power and it's one that's hard to get to,
it's hard earned.
You go through a lot, you get broken down, beaten down, you know, and you have to build
yourself back up in spite of, but once you get there and it's never, uh, you reach the top
of the mountain, you're always, you know, having to iterate.
But once you start getting that.
It's just...
You can't calorie.
Right.
Exactly.
Something falls away.
You're able to suss out what's real versus what's not.
uh You have a better litmus test for opportunities that will feed your soul versus starve
it.
You know, and then if none of the opportunities that are in front of you make sense to who
you are and where you want to be, there are more avenues than any have that than there
ever have been, you know, for entrepreneurship and doing it your own way.
and finding a tribe of people who see your brilliance, get what you're about, are also on
that path with you.
And there you go.
You didn't need permission from anybody because you did it yourself.
So, okay, I'm to get off my soapbox.
Juice.
I love this so much.
This is great.
m
Let's pick up that mic real quickly.
I know it's your podcast, but we could do this all day.
flip side of what Kat is talking about for her childhood.
I grew up in every public housing.
And back when we have public housing, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and whatnot, uh you
only got like a year or two years in a place and then they would move you somewhere else,
right?
Having a single mother who was white and then having the other half of my family who is
Afro-American and Jamaican.
I would go to my aunt's house to get a relaxer or to get my hair braided, you know,
because that's what we did.
And that's how we associated, you know, family dinners and learning some of those
traditional recipes from your grandparents and keeping the understanding of who you are.
and I have a commonality that we have family members who were Tuskegee Airmen or supported
the Tuskegee Airmen.
that we're very proud of and very thankful for having those conversations with our elders
to learn what they went through.
One of my biggest memories was taking my grandparents to see The Color Purple when it came
out.
And they had to leave 20 minutes in because it was so hard for them to watch that movie in
the era that they grew up.
And I went home with them and had a frank conversation with my grandfather.
to understand better of why that was so traumatic for them.
Because I didn't grow up in that era.
And also, our elders don't talk about stuff unless you ask them.
Because God forbid you ask them something, if you say something to them and your
grandmother look at you a certain way, you better run.
And let me tell you, my grandmother was spry.
She'd come for you.
Or get off the plastic couch.
You know, don't be sitting over there.
um But all that to say as TLDR, there is a huge, huge disparity for me in the aspect of
growing up in an environment where all I knew and all I wanted to know was my blackness.
I wanted to know where I came from.
I wanted to know the heritage of my family.
I wanted to feel like this is who I am.
And growing up,
and having the colorism just put this armor for me and understanding myself at an early
age because kids are mean.
But for me, this is who I am, take it or leave it.
And I've learned my authentic self is okay to be.
Again, Janay, you have a lot of growing and things to do in your life, but what you're
doing right now is so important, so impactful.
And Kat and I have talked about paving the way.
You're doing it.
You're doing it.
You're making an impact and you will continue to make an impact.
I can't say enough that I'm proud of you for what you're doing.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
This has just been amazing and I'm absolutely loving the affirmations and Kat, you're only
two years older than me, so I don't want to call you my senior in that way.
I don't think you guys are old at all.
You know what I mean?
But just from like my seniors.
Yes, ma'am.
favorite story!
I am 53 years old, but let me let me tell you black don't oh
Period.
My best friend is-
I you told me that.
people think I'm a liar.
my kid so I get it for it 53 63 I don't know it'll make me know that part you
I want to give a couple shameless plugs before we have to go.
One, I will be at GDC this year.
So you're listening or viewing this and you see me walking around, you can say hello.
You can stop me.
You can use my name.
It's right there.
I am all about networking, connecting, and being able to meet people where they are.
Ask me a question.
That's what I'm there for.
And two, if you haven't read my blog over at Where is a Cat?
www.shellgames.com slash blog.
you need to check it out because a lot of what we're talking about here is over in the
blog and you can suggest a topic and I will give you a shout out.
Stay tuned.
There's more to come in regards to prizes and other things and I want to hear from you.
Don't be shy.
I don't know.
love that.
plugs.
Just go and be great.
sign up for that newsletter, girl!
Okay, she was like, yeah, that's Me, I'm trying to get to GDC.
I'm trying to get to GDC still, still trying to figure that out.
I have a pass already because the IGDA Foundation gave me a pass, but as far as flight and
hotel, I don't.
And unfortunately, fortunately, I used to be a flute out.
So I'm like, money, I have to spend money.
So trying to get to GDC.
I am working on my first game, which I'm getting more more comfortable telling people that
I'm doing.
um Also, I'm into PR stuff now.
That's like my job.
So if you have a game coming out that you need some help boosting, I'm more than happy to
help.
And digital marketing as well.
So that's my plug.
I'm B2B.
I'm B2B.
I want to help B2B.
Um, this is business because B2C is exhausting.
I don't want to be a social media manager.
So if that's what you're looking for, don't call me.
I'm not writing no tweets.
I don't even write tweets for myself.
You know what I mean?
No, not at all.
Um, but I think, I think that that's it for me.
Thank you guys.
I, I, it sounds like there's going to have to be a part two or if we'll all be at GDC, we
could just black out some time.
to chat because I want to hear about, you know, like your consultation, especially because
I'm like, I got to embrace this entrepreneurship like fully, like not half it like fully.
And I want to do so much, but not too much.
Right.
Um, so I do want to hear more about that and I love volunteering and I love that.
We all overlapped in every section.
And so you guys are just amazing people to watch.
Thanks so much for existing and existing in the spaces that you do.
And thanks so much for talking to me.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for having us and thank you for taking both of our chaos energy because we can,
we're a lot on most days, but for some reason today we're just like,
Cut us loose.
Cut us loose.
This has been the easiest to focus.
So I think we just, just call us the Chaos Emeralds at this point, because we, we're,
we're doing pretty well together.
We're doing pretty well together.
So that concludes this episode of Gaming for the Culture with Kat and Carmen.
Yup.
Slash Chaos.
Right.
I guess that'll be the name of this episode because I don't have a name just yet.
But thanks so much for listening and tuning in and subscribing to the Patreon and please
share this.
Also check out the blog, check out, you know, what they got going on.
They always got something cool and they can always tell you about what other people got
going on.
So until next time, game safely, wash your hands, wash your butt.
Okay.
We're still doing that.
Just continue to do that.
Um, you know, be kind, rewind.
That's not relevant anymore, but people who get it, get it.
So, yeah, be safe.
It's a great movie.
Thanks y'all.
Thanks everybody.
you