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Why does an hour of screen time end with a demand for more? Matt and Val return with an honest review of Michaeleen Doucleff’s Dopamine Kids: the ideas that helped, the examples that lost them, and why finding a stopping point matters more than chasing the next level.
Two Factor Parenting is a conversation between two parents navigating technology's role in raising kids. He's the early adopter and tech optimist. She's the skeptic who asks "but should we?" Together they tackle screen time, AI, social media, and all the parenting decisions that don't come with a manual.
Two parents. Two perspectives. Raising kids in the age of screens, AI, and chaos.
Sep 7th
00:00:13 Matt: Ready, Freddy?
00:00:16 Val: Yeah, let's do it.
00:00:17 Matt: Okay.
00:00:19 Val: Hello, everybody. Welcome back. We were on a break, not an official break. We kind of just. Life kind of just happened. Life happened. I feel like the summertime happened, and you kind of just get swept up into the day to day, but we're back. Um, this one also took a while because we intentionally wanted to do a book review. We wanted to do this episode on a review of the book Dopamine Kids by Michaeleen Doucleff. And I really hope I'm saying that correctly.
00:01:01 Matt: It sounds, sounds right, sounds right. Okay. Yeah.
00:01:04 Val: Hope so.
00:01:05 Matt: Feels right.
00:01:06 Val: It feels right. If it's not, she can send me a letter. Yeah. Um, so back in March, my best friend, I was telling her that we were doing this podcast and she sent me this book and said, hey, she just came out with this book. I think maybe only a week before. but this is the woman who wrote Hunt, Gather, Parent Um, and that was a very popular parenting book. And so this is her second book, and it talks about dopamine and how it relates to your relationship with screens and tech and also ultra processed foods. So my friend recommended it to me and we did take some time to read it. And so here we are.
00:01:59 Matt: Yeah. And I think the other thing to kind of, the title is kind of interesting right off the bat, right? Because there's also a level set, of what dopamine, really is. It's not as simple, the pleasure chemical that we frankly, we were all kind of taught and kind of pointed out. And she does level set there as a kind of a foundational way of getting you into the, the other topics that she's kind of talking about. But. Mhm.
00:02:30 Val: Well, that was one thing I thought that she did really well. Um, I just want to first off say I don't really do well with audiobooks. So we decided to listen to this one. Um, so I have probably six pages of notes because while I'm listening to an audiobook, I'll like pause it and then write something down. And then, my plan is to go back and look at it, but usually I don't. So I have, I have a lot of notes, but not particularly because I was super interested just because I, that's how I listen to audiobooks. So whenever people recommend audiobooks to me, like fiction books or something, I'll be like, nah, that's, that's okay. I can't usually handle audiobooks. So I had a lot of notes for this one. Um, yeah, you're right. So the basic overview is that she is trying to debunk what people think of as dopamine instead of the pleasure receptor into a motivation chemical. And she backs it up with a lot of research, a lot of different studies from different places and even different industries to, um, particularly the gaming industry and the history of the gaming industry and how it.
00:03:59 Matt: Ooh. Expand that one a little bit more because it's really about the, um, gambling.
00:04:05 Val: Oh yeah. Sorry.
00:04:06 Matt: Yeah. Gambling industry.
00:04:08 Val: Yeah.
00:04:09 Matt: So she same good is different.
00:04:12 Val: Yeah.
00:04:13 Matt: Different outcome.
00:04:15 Val: I guess I was thinking of like uh.
00:04:17 Matt: Yeah, I know the like game. Yeah.
00:04:19 Val: Like there. So she goes into a lot of detail and a lot of research that she did about the development of slot machines and how slot machines affect people's dopamine, in the sense that they really hit on your motivation or your want of a reward, and not necessarily the reward itself, and how that industry pretty much grew based off of seeing people's reaction to the slot machines instead of like at the card tables, for example.
00:05:03 Matt: Absolutely. So so the thing was citing the woman's research that I'm blanking on her name. Um, the thing that was fascinating about that because it then led into these other realms, right? Of oh, if that is true, you get this, particular motivation to keep going on the system. And then how can we, you know, use that in other places? Mhm.
00:05:33 Val: So one of the notes that I had that really kind of tied it together is, you know, on a slot machine, you're essentially trying to get a reward, like a monetary reward. Eventually, people just keep playing and playing and playing for the hit of maybe I'll win. And the maybe the uncertainty is a reward in itself. And tech companies eventually use that for this, like endless scrolling feature, right? But what she said was essentially you're playing emotional roulette. because you keep scrolling and keep scrolling, and then your brain starts thinking like, what am I going to find next? What am I going to see next? What am I going to see next? And then your reward isn't actually the video. It's satisfying the uncertainty.
00:06:26 Matt: Yeah. it's like you get trapped in the exploration, right? And the trap of eventually something being there, That's, you're like, oh, I found something. Right. Um, but I think then the more, I mean, frankly, depressing part of the whole thing for me and that little, that specific spot Is this the empty fill that you get? And I use that one specifically, but the empty fill of, oh, I find something, but it's like just not enough.
00:07:05 Val: Mhm.
00:07:06 Matt: Right. Um, because that's what they also do in the casino games now, like the slot ones is they give you almost like the feeling of like close to an award to getting something back.
00:07:20 Val: Oh yeah. She talked a lot about that too, in different scientific studies, especially with animals and getting rewards about consistent rewards, but then also inconsistent rewards.
00:07:33 Matt: Yeah.
00:07:34 Val: And how animals would behave when they got inconsistent rewards.
00:07:38 Matt: Yeah.
00:07:38 Val: And so how people behave when they get inconsistent rewards. But again, it kind of goes back to it's not about the reward itself. It's about that little micro burst of chemical that is your dopamine that is seeking the reward, that motivation, that motivation circuitry that is driving you to a reward.
00:08:05 Matt: Mhm.
00:08:05 Val: And that being this. Thing that actually is what's inherently keeping you on your tablet, keeping you looking at your phone, keeping you checking your notifications, things like that. Mhm. it's this little thing that is driving you to it. Because I think of the uncertainty of that, what am I going to find?
00:08:30 Matt: Yeah. And it's an interesting kind of, um, idea of like, it's tapping into this urge of exploration of what we all inherently have because evolutionary made sense.
00:08:44 Val: So that's actually, that's where I wanted to go next. Go for it. Um, because this is about kids and parenting and stuff and it's called dopamine kids. But there's a certain section of the book where she talks about these, like fundamental needs that children have and people in general, but children especially. one of those needs is this need for touch and physical touch. and you, you see a lot of that with kids when they like wrestle, you know, especially with boys, we think that boys are being like super aggressive and fighting each other, but they're really getting that need for touch. so it's a nice reframing of, of certain ways that you see your kids behave. But one of them was a need to create. And she talks about like why games like Minecraft are so popular and Roblox because they're really satisfying these kids needs to create because they're building things like our need to build. But the problem is you're not actually satisfying that need. because you're doing it virtually. another one she talks about a lot is this need for curiosity and adventure. And she talks about adventure being the antidote to anxiety. And I just loved that.
00:10:06 Matt: Mhm.
00:10:07 Val: Um, she kind of connected it to our broader societal parenting. Yeah. That kids just don't get out and explore independently, whether that's because of, you know, their parents or where they're living or things like that, but they don't have as many opportunities to go out and explore independently and adventure. Mhm. And so they tend to turn to online forums for this sense of independence, for this sense of adventure. Yeah. Because online.
00:10:51 Matt: It's unlimited, it's unlimited. You can do whatever. Yeah.
00:10:53 Val: And they can. And it was just a really good, I don't know, a thing to be aware of.
00:11:01 Matt: I the thing that gets, you know, helpful is, is that the lens that she puts on some of these things helps you kind of maybe have a little bit more empathy, a little bit more understanding of behavior that inherently what's happening is you're getting this view of looking at, oh, my kids may be behaving this way because they're looking for this. They may not know it.
00:11:33 Val: Yes.
00:11:34 Matt: And I mean, even the parents like you don't know. And so until you start to kind of recognize, you go, ah, that's why they're doing this. So that's going to help me kind of better understand how to maybe I need to give them this outlet.
00:11:50 Val: Mhm.
00:11:50 Matt: Right.
00:11:51 Val: Like I think she said, even the reason she started thinking about this was because her daughter would watch her tablet for like an hour. And then after an hour, she would throw a tantrum taking it away. And she was like, you just watched for a whole hour. Like, aren't you satisfied? isn't that enough?
00:12:08 Matt: Are you not entertained?
00:12:09 Val: Well, but like, I have felt that so much. I'm like, you've had so much showtime. Like, what do you mean you want more?
00:12:17 Matt: Yeah.
00:12:18 Val: And it's, it's like I find myself saying that and I need to remember this, like, oh, they don't actually want more. Yeah. Um, she brought up a lot of other really good points about. How games and social media affect your kids life and thinking, especially video games and how they level everything, how they celebrate every accomplishment, how everything is like a mission or a challenge.
00:12:49 Matt: Yeah. Now, the point that I would just caution is the mission. You make that comment about mission, I would say that's a little bit different, but the level up, the never ending qualities.
00:13:09 Val: I think mission was an example.
00:13:11 Matt: I, um, I don't think it was a good example. I love you, but I think that my point though is like, I think of Fortnite I think of Fortnite is a really good example. Um it's just it's never ending. Yeah. there are a lot of online games that are kind of like that.
00:13:29 Val: Yeah.
00:13:29 Matt: World of Warcraft.
00:13:30 Val: Oh my God. When we played Mario we played Mario World. Do you remember? And we like beat Mario World. And then they were like, just kidding. You can play the whole game again. But it's Luigi world. And I was like, doesn't.
00:13:45 Matt: This.
00:13:45 Val: Doesn't this just end? You should.
00:13:47 Matt: Just.
00:13:47 Val: Have an ending and there's secret level.
00:13:50 Matt: In the switch.
00:13:51 Val: Oh my God, there's secret levels. And there were like, play this one again, but go through the second I was so over it. I was just, I was.
00:14:00 Matt: I felt honestly, I felt like the.
00:14:01 Val: Kids.
00:14:01 Matt: Were Mario kids were like, yeah, whatever. Well, I mean, the thing that's interesting about Mario is it feels like it's a little it's a little contained in some aspects, which now that we're talking about games. The the thing that I really liked how she described this was how do we give ourselves goals and how do we give ourselves ending points, which I think is actually really important in games. And that's what the problem with Fortnite and stuff like this is. It doesn't have an ending.
00:14:36 Val: So okay, I just found my note on this. It says social media and video games have clear progress. Followers likes. In a game you have points or you have numbers of missions completed or whatever. But social media and video games have constant, measurable growth.
00:15:01 Matt: To what end?
00:15:02 Val: That kids can see. And so I think her point about that was, if you are going to replace social media and video games, you need to find ways to find measurable growth in whatever activity you are providing for them, because that's why it's so enticing for them. Like that's why it's so enticing to see this because kids are like, oh, well, I got this many points and this many points. And like as humans, we again, there's so much like biology involved in this that like, we like to see measurable growth
00:15:41 Matt: But I guess this.
00:15:44 Val: Is where into that.
00:15:45 Matt: Well, this is where I push back on I the measurable growth though is linear, linear to the fact that it just doesn't end. And I think that's part of the problem. Yeah. Is things don't have an ending. That's why I actually.
00:16:04 Val: Think we know that as adults. But the kids don't know that.
00:16:07 Matt: No.
00:16:07 Val: That's true. That's the problem.
00:16:08 Matt: Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. That's why things like a Lego kit are actually really good. Because you build something and then you're done. Mhm. Right. And I think that's kind of the issue with some of these, is it just, it just keeps going. Yeah. You have X number of points. So there's, there's a perceived progress however, nothing, nothing has really changed.
00:16:34 Val: Um, one of the other foundational ideas that I liked was that a lot of times parents will say, you need to just be bored. Yeah. Like you need to learn how to be bored.
00:16:49 Matt: It's hard not.
00:16:50 Val: To.
00:16:50 Matt: Say myself.
00:16:51 Val: It's really hard not to say or, you know, when I was your age, we were just bored and we figured it out, right? and so we'll just take away the device and then just give them nothing to replace it with. Yeah. And she kind of says like, that's actually not a good idea because. You're not giving them any incentive to want to be off their device.
00:17:16 Matt: Mhm.
00:17:17 Val: all you've done is take away their device and you have to think about an activity to replace with it that they actually want to do, and it's going to take work. You're going to have to figure out what your kid likes to do. That's not on the screen. and she has a whole kind of like subset of that that has been helpful for me. Mhm. in terms of finding what activities that I actually enjoy doing. Mhm. but it really has kind of made me not jump right to the just be bored. So usually when we have to turn off the device, they'll be like, what do I do? I'll be like, you can read a book, you can play Legos, you can play with the toys in your room. Like I immediately offer some choices instead of, I don't know, just figure something out, it's a little bit easier to offer some choices. And then it kind of gets them thinking okay, well, I don't like any of the choices, but I'll figure something out to do instead.
00:18:17 Matt: Right.
00:18:18 Val: Um, I have noticed that.
00:18:20 Matt: Yeah,
00:18:21 Val: Um, the general structure of the book is she has a foundational idea. She backs it up with a lot of research. And then. She pulls an example from her own life where she has used this in her own family or used it for herself. And I have to say, I like the foundational ideas.
00:18:48 Matt: Honestly, I thought those were all really good.
00:18:50 Val: The foundational.
00:18:51 Matt: Ideas. I mean, there's, there's so many little points in there that I was like, oh, that makes sense. Mhm.
00:18:57 Val: I thought the research was, I mean, solid, you know, Um, that's her background. It was when she got to the personal examples. That is always where she lost me. Every single time. Every single time. Mhm. Um, whether because her personal examples. Were a little bit too privileged in the sense of just not acknowledging that this is just not everybody's life. This is not everybody.
00:19:32 Matt: It's hard to translate it.
00:19:34 Val: Yeah. Or saying you can just do this. I was like, yeah, we can just do that. Okay.
00:19:42 Matt: Just like that?
00:19:42 Val: and oftentimes her personal examples did not involve any kind of like nuance or clarity. And so one example was she was talking about creating roaming zones, which I think is also in her first book, but which is essentially just a place for your kid to roam around safely, right? Whether that's your living room or whatever, and then expanding that as they get older.
00:20:11 Matt: Mhm.
00:20:11 Val: Great foundational concept. And most parents probably do that anyway, you know?
00:20:17 Matt: Yeah.
00:20:17 Val: But then she backs it up with science. Awesome. And then her personal example is, yeah, like when my daughter was a toddler, it was the porch. And then when she was older, it was the backyard and then it was the front yard. I'm with her on this. And then she goes. And then when she was seven, I would drop her off at the park to play by herself. And I was like, ma'am, what? And then she would just keep talking. I was like, what are you talking? You dropped her off at the park by herself, but she didn't bother to explain. Is this a park in your neighborhood? Is this a park down the street? Are you talking about driving to a public park and just leaving your seven year old there? Because most of us just can't do that or won't do that, or would get the police called on us if we tried to do that. And it was like that throughout the book. The foundational concept was great, the research was great. And then it would just fall apart,
00:21:21 Matt: Yeah. And it almost kind of needed to like have more community voices in there that probably would have given some diversity and like situations of, hey, how best can you do this?
00:21:37 Val: And I kept expecting, almost like a footnote or some type of chapter on, hey, I know that this experience is not going to work for everybody. Here's what could work. And it never came. And or some type of chapter explaining her background or even acknowledging her situation and privilege. even just saying, hey, I know that not everybody can do this. So do what you can, you know, just some type of acknowledgement. And it just wasn't there. There was no context. I had to ask my friend, because I was real took out by one example that she had. Mhm. She said, oh yeah, she spent time overseas living in like rural farming communities. I was like, well, then say that in the book with a. Anyway, so there's two.
00:22:36 Matt: I feel like there's two aspects to this, right? The fact that she's been overseas, there are different communities and there are different expectations and understandings in these communities that we might not always get in certain parts within the US. So it creates a, um, hard break of understanding between the author and the reader. Mhm. So, so there's that piece of it. I think the other thing to do Number two, is we have to do acknowledge are we limiting ourselves and really what is probably okay. I think there are things in here that I think definitely needs more clarity, right? Of like, the small park in your neighborhood. Yeah, you might be okay there. I mean, to kind of, of course depends. How far is your house? How you know, how safe is the surrounding areas? Yeah. Like, have you been there a couple of times where you would kind of know? Mhm. You know, so it's.
00:23:46 Val: And that's my issue. The clarity just like didn't happen.
00:23:49 Matt: Yeah. You never really got the.
00:23:50 Val: So I was just kind of left thinking, oh, am I just supposed to, you know, like I would not. But again, this is, it's specifically listed as a parenting book.
00:24:01 Matt: That's true.
00:24:01 Val: whole time she's talking about the end of the book has a four week transformation. Yeah, a specific plan. She has something in there where you write down your dream list of like, what you want your family to look like, things like that. Mhm. Um, or what you want your family's tech to look like. So she is prescribing plans and things to do for parents throughout the book. But her, I guess real life examples are only her experience. Yeah. And without that clarity, it's it's very jarring. Um, I will say once you get to the four week transformation, I do have a note that I was like, is this what I thought the rest of the book would be And then the four week transformation is almost like the last third of the book. And it is more of that. you can try this and this and this and this and this, and she almost gets there. Like, I know whole foods are expensive, so maybe buy these types of foods. I'm like, there we go. So anyway, that was my general opinion. I feel like again, the foundational things, were there a lot of good takeaways to use for your own family?
00:25:26 Matt: Mhm.
00:25:26 Val: But there is a whole lot of nuance missing from the book. The only other thing that I, I really feel like she should have focused on either tech or food And the fact that it was like pushed together so much was also, I feel like a little problematic. she also mentions drinking alcohol in it too, because she was.
00:25:52 Matt: Oh, that was a weird pivot, wasn't it? Yes. Yeah. And I mean.
00:25:56 Val: In the sense of she used her understanding of dopamine to examine her own drinking habits and then, lessen her drinking during the week.
00:26:09 Matt: Right. To say like, hey, this could help you. Yeah. Um, which, you know, from a parenting aspect you got to call it out, but it just felt very jarring. I remember that part being very like, wait, what did she just tell me Um.
00:26:25 Val: Like she was a wine mom, basically. She was like, yeah, I was drinking like two glasses of wine every night. yeah. She goes, but then I put all these rules on myself about these cues. And then I stopped drinking. I only drank with my old neighbor next door. And that to me is just it's almost like she's toeing the line of talking about addiction, but not actually wanting to admit that she's talking about addiction or not actually wanting to like, go there, but she's really talking about stuff like that. she's talking about changing your alcohol habits. She's talking about changing your eating habits. like, it's so easy.
00:27:05 Matt: Yeah, there's just, there's different aspects. But, again, I do appreciate, the bowerbird piece, the Beavers, which again, when you.
00:27:17 Val: Explain that a little more.
00:27:19 Matt: Um, as best as I can, beavers, she kind of described them as very hands on kind of individuals that like to do stuff outside. I kind of like gross motor. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like they like to do things a little bit more physical and, you know, use their hands in a more, um, bigger way, if that makes sense. Um, the bowerbird is more of the smaller kind of, likes the paint, likes to draw, likes to, stitch kind of, And then also I would even put that into likes the work on the computer or build like kind of creating smaller things like that
00:28:01 Val: I think she put Legos in both. So this was in a, conversation about finding those activities that your kids like to do, right? When you're replacing screen time. Mhm. And specifically talking about like the building aspect. and it's been helpful for me when I'm trying to think of an activity for me to do with my kids.
00:28:23 Matt: Mhm.
00:28:24 Val: It's helpful because one of my kids is for sure a beaver and one is for sure a bowerbird and I am a beaver. So like when I'm asking my beaver kid hey, do you want to do a puzzle? He's like, no, yeah, let's go in the outside and dig a hole. I'm like, yeah, all right. That makes sense. Like, so instead of trying to just force your kids to do things that just genuinely don't, entertain them or just don't interest them. that part has been really helpful. Um, the only other question that I thought was really interesting that I wanted to ask you.
00:29:02 Matt: Go for it.
00:29:05 Val: She talks about apps and a lot of times on our phones, we will download a free app.
00:29:14 Matt: Yeah.
00:29:15 Val: Because a lot of apps are free. But she says that in our working lives, we consider our time being worth value like money, right? Or paid for our time.
00:29:32 Matt: Right.
00:29:32 Val: So she poses the question, how much do we pay for free apps with our time?
00:29:40 Matt: Oh, totally. Yeah. well, when the app is free, you're the product. Like that's the key. Mhm. So that's always the thing we've been taught. for these free apps, they are trying to collect data on you that they can then sell as they can. Right. So that's honestly, their purpose is to find, can I be a lead generation system wrapped around, you know, what really is this free app. Um, but the whole point of it is, oh, I need to collect info about you so I could sell to you.
00:30:18 Val: And I need to keep you on this longer.
00:30:21 Matt: Well, because I get to learn more about you. Mhm. Yeah. The longer that you do that. I can learn about you and what you do. you know, Facebook is a great example where I keep you on here because I need to sell you an ad. Hey, look at this ad. And you go, oh, well, I guess I could. That makes a lot of sense. Or oh, that's nearby. So all of that stuff is at play when the app is free.
00:30:50 Val: Mhm.
00:30:51 Matt: Yeah.
00:30:53 Val: And the back of your mind, what's your time worth?
00:30:56 Matt: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:30:58 Val: Would you recommend this book to someone who is like struggling with their kids spending a lot of time on screens.
00:31:08 Matt: If there is a YouTube video that explained the core foundational concepts, I'd rather just recommend that. Mhm. Um, and a lot of this stuff is hard because books and things like that, you almost need the journey, right? Whether you're listening to it or reading it, you need the journey of going through the process to better internalize the ideas of it. Mhm. So watching a thirty minute YouTube.
00:31:41 Matt: I like that. I like the irony of.
00:31:42 Val: You suggesting a YouTube video.
00:31:47 Matt: Oh, totally.
00:31:48 Matt: Instead of.
00:31:50 Matt: Oh, totally. And I'm not, and I'm not. I'm not hiding away from my own video. Addictions. Yeah. Video addictions. They're like, I mean, YouTube is a horrible place. Well, but so good.
00:32:09 Matt: But again, like.
00:32:11 Val: so I looked up on Claude to, I was like, what's the general consensus of this book? And it pretty much said the same thing. You know, there's the foundational ideas are there and it's readable. It's easy to read. but it doesn't have a whole lot of nuance. And the author only uses her own experience.
00:32:34 Matt: well, for me. At the end of the day, this thing was good at acknowledging a couple of things that, hey, we should kind of just level set on what dopamine really is, right? It's more connected to, to motivation and more connected to that, right? So willpower and all these things, you have to kind of balance, um, your kids finding activities, things like that. Um, you need to be appealing to certain characteristics that they might enjoy more of bowerbird, beaver kind of thing. Totally makes sense. For me, the most important one out of the whole dang thing that I think is probably the most valuable piece of out of the book is the understanding of goals and understanding of when we do things, how long we do these things. Finding ending points is something that really resonated with me because then you know, when to stop Um, and I always like the whole hey, what are you going to build? Or what are you going to do in this game? And you're like, well, I'm going to build a house or I'm going to do that. It just gets you very focused on what you need to do and not letting the game, sweep you away and kind of getting lost. Right. So that's for me, there's some big takeaways that I was like, no, that's a good level set because, you know, the thing that's going to get hard, and I see it already with so much from an AI front is you can infinitely build. Now you are infinitely scrolling. Now you can infinitely build or ask or whatever. right. But if you have no goal, you are going to continue to spin and wonder when does the when do you get off the carousel? Right. And it's got to get to a point. If you've. Establishing a goal gives you a direction and a stopping point to say yes.
00:34:42 Val: Oh, that's such a good wrap up and tie in, because the whole point is that dopamine isn't the reward. It's the motivation. And you're going to be constantly chasing it. Oh, beautiful. Oh, jeez.
00:34:56 Matt: Okay. All right.
00:34:59 Val: So that I guess that we will leave it at that because that was great. Um. Overall, a pretty mediocre review.
00:35:07 Matt: Of this book.
00:35:08 Val: I still very much appreciate my friend for recommending it. Again, I would say my favorite part was Just again learning about the activities. It helped me learn about myself, helped me stop fighting my children's natural instincts for what they enjoy.
00:35:29 Matt: Yeah. Um, so having redirect. Yeah.
00:35:31 Val: Yeah. I actually have recommended this book to a friend with all of these caveats.
00:35:37 Matt: And I think that's probably, that's fine. I have said, hey, uh, here's this book.
00:35:41 Matt: Knowing yeah, knowing what.
00:35:42 Matt: You're getting.
00:35:42 Matt: Into, then you can kind of go like, okay, there's this part, you know, you kind of get to what you need out of it, which is key anyway. So.
00:35:50 Val: Um, well, thank you everybody. That's, that's it for now.
00:35:54 Matt: Um, and we'll kind of get ourselves back on the back on the horse here and. Yes. Keep going on these.
00:36:00 Val: We will. Thanks.
00:36:02 Matt: All right. Take care folks.