Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode, we continue on from last week's episode where we were answering your listener questions. So thank you so much for submitting them and I hope you found last week's episode, uh, very interesting. We talked about how to take care of your child in a high conflict situation, a high conflict custody dispute. Um, we talked about whether to confront pe, high conflict people, about their, their issues, um, and how to manage intimidating behavior. And then how to handle life, uh, with someone, um, that who may have borderline personality disorder and how to take care of yourself. So if you're interested in those, go have a listen.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
So in today's episode, we're going to take a question about mediation. To start off, I am a family mediator in Nashville, Tennessee, and I've just found your podcast and so grateful for the information you're sharing. My practice focuses on keeping people out of court, which we love, right Bill, um, and, and helping them navigate their divorce in mediation. In my experience, high conflict personalities do not do well in this kind of mediation. It's as if they need the authority of a lawyer or even a judge to bring their expectations and demand into the realm of reality. They often shoot themselves in the foot as well. So Bill, um, what would you think they're about, you know, uh, HCPs not doing well in, uh, in mediation then and instead needing a lawyer, the authority of a judge, the black robe effect as we call it, to bring, bring them into reality.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yes. No, you're totally on target with that concern and fortunately that's one of my favorite subjects. So in December, 2019, I stopped doing mediation after 40 years. And so for about 25 years I didn't have to deal much with high conflict people in mediation. They pretty much went to court. But with the progress of mediation and the requirement of a lot of court systems that you go through mediation first, uh, we started to see high conflict people in mediations. So for the last 15 years, uh, myself and a colleague in Victoria, Canada, Michael Lomax, we started discussing ways to deal with high conflict people in mediation. Cuz the goal is to help them stay out of court and reach reasonable agreements in mediation. And so we really worked up bit by bit a method, we call it new ways remediation has a very specific structure. It's got four steps and four tasks for the clients to do, which really engages more of their problem solving brain and doesn't get hooked into their reactive brain as much.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
And so I would encourage you to read our book Mediating High Conflict Disputes, uh, published by unhooked books of course. And I think you'll find over a hundred tips that will help in managing high conflict people in mediation. But with that said, you're right that they often need an authority involved. So we encourage people to have lawyers and have their lawyers give them realistic, uh, picture of what may or may not, uh, be able to happen. We often talk about what standards are. That's the beginning of the, of the process in my mind, is laying out some of the standards so that they, their expectations start adapting to reality. Um, because in many cases, high conflict people are in a whole different universe and you're trying to get them at least into the same ballpark in terms of their expectations. Also, meeting separately part of the time gives an opportunity to do some reality testing and put them in touch with, you know, this isn't likely and this is likely.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I might add that we do a training in our new ways for mediation method. It's a 12 hour training and we do it about three times a year. People really find it very helpful cuz it's simple. It's actually a simpler process, but it's more structure. And the mediator guides the parties to really do their own problem solving. And by keeping them focused on thinking instead of reacting, we find they really can make a lot of progress. So those are some resources you can think about and don't give up, you know, uh, that's what happened to me. I really wanted to find a way to make mediation succeed even for high conflict people. Cuz I had already become a lawyer in 1993, I had been doing mediation, but I became a family lawyer. We go to court in the morning and do mediations in the afternoon. From that experience, it became clear to me that there really is the ability to manage a lot of these cases out of court. The last thing I wanna say is some cases you'll never reach. And so maybe 10% of high conflict cases will end up in court, sadly. So because they're usually not happy there either.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And part two of the question, I'm curious if you're familiar with nonviolent communication, listening to the Biff Response podcast, which I love. I'm curious if you consider the emotional side of things when working with companies. I've found that em empathy can mitigate emotional triggers so people can deliver bi biff responses until, and unless people get empathy, they may not be able to biff it.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah. Well, let me start with, uh, Marshall Rosenberg, I think it is with nonviolent communication. Great stuff. It's all good. I think the thing that we do that's different is we really try to steer people away from the emotional side of things. Because what we find with personality disorders, especially with the overlap with high conflict people, is significant, is that they don't grieve and heal, uh, losses the way most people do. And that means they have a reservoir of unresolved emotional pain. And so when we focus on emotions with them, uh, for example, like transformative mediation, the non-violent communication, et cetera, is it explodes. And therapists for years are trying to help people work through their feelings. When you find out that people with personality disorders don't work through their feelings, that they stay stuck. And so I know people that have been in therapy like 15 years talking about their feelings and then like they learned D B t, like for borderline personality disorder, which focused on skills and how to manage the coming week and suddenly did a whole lot better. So with reasonable people, emotions are a great thing to consider. And you can work through emotions with high conflict people. We found from experience that they have more success focusing on thinking and doing and trying to not get focused on the emotions. Unless they're in therapy and the therapist is trained in, in personality disorders, then they may be able to make progress and somehow grow the diagnosis. But in a conflict situation, especially focusing on the emotions with high conflict people tends to backfire.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah. And the, and then it's just off and run and running, uh, because someone else will get triggered and, and you know, as professionals, it's, uh, you're trying to help your, your client or, um, who are customers, whoever you're working with, you know, get from A to Z and and out the door, right? Very peacefully and with some success. And if you go down an emotional road, it's likely to sabotage that success. You just can't do it the way you do with everyone else.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
There's one more thing I realize I wanna add is we don't ignore emotions. We acknowledge emotions and then focus on what to do. So that's why ear statements work. We say, oh, I can empathize. It's so I know this is a hard situation. Now let's look at our choices so that you don't ignore notions, but you don't open them up. You acknowledge them and move away. So I wanna make sure that is clarified.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, I think that is confusing for, for folks. It's, it seems, um, yeah, we, it's not that we never talk about emotions. Um, we're we're addressing them in the way that they need them addressed. Yeah. Okay, next question. Do you often see high conflict with antisocial personality disorder in multiple generations? Which I, I I know you're laughing, bill, because, um, you know, we talk about this a lot, that, that antisocial seems to have the highest level of, um, genetic, uh, transference from one generation to the next.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, exactly. After, after listening to your podcast about antisocial with, uh, high conflict, I think my father had antisocial and my younger sister has both my father has passed after creating much chaos during his life. By the way, there are three words that we've heard for 15 years, 16 years maybe, uh, over and over, uh, um, when people describe high conflict situations and they are dread, chaos and exhaustion. So usually when those are involved, there's probably some element of high conflict. So, uh, back to this, um, after creating much chaos during his life, including disowning me, he passed, he died from an undiagnosed form of dementia, but my sister is very much alive in creating a shit storm for me. I have an online appointment for, for myself with a therapist tomorrow. So I guess the, the main question is do you see it in multiple generations?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And the answer is yes. That you're exactly right, Megan, that this is the one in the manual of diagnosis, the DSM five t r that says there's a stronger connection with first generation relatives. With that said, it doesn't mean that everybody that's related to someone with an antisocial personality disorder will get that. And we see in families, like there's three or four kids and one gets that and the others don't.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I mean, similar to just anything, you know, like one of my children has curly hair like I do and has the same colic, right? I mean, we all get different traits from our, our parents. And so it's no different with, uh, a genetic trait such as a person antisocial personality disorder. Not everyone's going to get them. And I think a lot of people really do fear that when they find out that someone, you know, a parent in their life has this
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Right? And there's things you can do to soften it. Even if a child has tendencies like that, if they're raised well with structure, responsibility, empathy, attention and respect, then they may be able to manage, um, some antisocial tendencies. So it's certainly, but it is certainly something that can happen in families. And it's very sad because one of the things to remember is personality disorders. Personality development happens mostly in childhood. And so factors you can't control, you can't control your biological tendencies, you can't control your early childhood, you can't control the social environment that you're raised in. And so we are all kind of, let's say you're 18 or 20 and your personalities pretty much formed now, your responsible to make your life, you know, more balanced or to work better. But for, it's so helpful, I think, to understand these aren't bad people. These are people that have essentially, um, a disability, an interpersonal disability that they don't have the skills to function well.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
So that's why we teach skills to cope with them. But I wanted to say some things, um, about coping with someone with this kind of personality. I'm so glad you're seeing a therapist because that will really help. But also learning what we talked about in the last, uh, segment, uh, the cars method, connecting, analyzing, responding, and setting limits is as general principles that can help you deal with your sister. You can say, I respect this and this and, uh, here's our choices. You know, analyze your choices, give some choices. Sometimes, um, respond to misinformation and antisocial, really, they lie a lot. They distort things a lot and, and they're not even that conscious of it. They're, it is like a painter who does artwork and this, this color, this is a, a place to put some blue paint. And so they'll say, this is a place to say this thing.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
And it has nothing to do with what's actually reality. They're painting a picture the way they want it to look. So, and they can't help themselves. This is the hardest personality to treat. So last thing, setting limits and how you can say, if you do this, I won't do that. You have to be more structured with anti-social because they really can't stop themselves and sometimes you have to diminish the relationship or move away and, and not have a relationship. And that's sad. We see that in some families where people got healthy once they got away from the high conflict people in their family. So we're not saying that's the right choice, but that's one of the choices.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And you really have to take care of yourself if you have someone with antisocial personality in your life and, and learn how to set limits. You know, here's what I will do and what I won't do. And like you just said, bill, they they have you, they have to have that from, from the outside. They may not like it and you may be very afraid to set limits with them, but it's, it's, it's necessary if you're going to be, um, around this individual. Right?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah. Let me add something. And that is, I wrote a blog on how does spot sociopath, cuz antisocial personality and sociopath are approximately the same thing. How does spot a sociopath in three steps? And that's had over 2.2 million views. That's,
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Is that on your Psychology Today blog?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah. Psychology today.com. And you can find
Speaker 1 (16:18):
It. I'll put it in the, I'll put it the link in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah. And so it's just, this is such an important topic that people don't understand that people get conned all the time. Anti-social are con artists. If you're dealing with one, they're gonna con all the people around you that it's your fault instead of taking responsibility for their own behavior. And people have to realize that and realize that if there's a situation and somebody's pointing fingers, you need to consider. Maybe it's true, maybe it's the person pointing fingers because anti socials really point fingers a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah. They do a lot of deflection point and finger pointing. So, okay, good. These are a couple of really great questions and we'll have more questions in the next episode that we'll answer. And, uh, I really hope, and I know Bill, uh, feels the same, that we, we hope that this is, is helpful to all of all of our listeners. We'll answer more questions in the next episode. In the meantime, send them any of your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com. And, uh, if you'd leave us a review, we'd love it, we'd love your questions, but we also love reviews . Um, it tells us where, where to focus. Um, so until next week, be kind to yourself. Keep learning the skills, understanding the high conflict, and, uh, will all keeps striving toward the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Z Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app Laos ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.