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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
Denalee Bell:
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Soapy Box. I'm Denalee Bell, and today's guest is Josh Durbin, and he's going to discuss his time as a formerly incarcerated prison inmate. What he's going to share with us is how he got there, what decisions led him to it. Maybe some of them are his, maybe some are somebody else's. We also have our dog, Lola, here. But he's also going to share with us what life was like behind bars, kind of the down and dirty of the prison business. And then we are going to move on to how he's managed to overcome the recidivism rates in the United States, which is the most heavily incarcerated population in the world. And we also have the highest recidivism rate with people, which means people returning to prison. So I'm just going to give you a little background in Josh and my relationship. Josh worked for my husband in 2012-
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
... and they work in the construction industry. And in between that time there was a brief intermission where you kind of got in trouble and went to prison, and then you came back and he rose up through our business and now runs the entire field operations. So he's got quite an inspiring story that we want to share. And part of the reason I invited you on the podcast was the whole purpose of our podcast is to help people in some way. And I think sometimes just sharing your story helps people not feel isolated and alone. Or sometimes they can learn from it or be inspired by it, by what you've done or where you've come from and you are helpful.
So we have people in our lives that have been to jail or prison, and I've called you and you've helped me through it by giving me advice on how to handle it or telling me how the whole system works. And it's been truly helpful. But I think even within our business, you've been helpful because we're in the construction business. So people sometimes come from jail or prison and work with us. I've noticed through Dave's stories that he tells me about your communications with them is that that part of our business has improved immensely because you communicate well with those guys in particular because I think it's because they believe and understand that you know where they're coming from. And I also think there is another component that you hold them accountable-
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
... in a way that is necessary to help them grow. So I love that, and I love your heart that you want to help and you want to help people reintegrate into society in a way that makes it easier on them because it does come with challenges. So that's why I invited you to the podcast because I think it's a big deal, what you've done. It's a huge deal. You've overcome the odds, you've beat them, and you're here and you are flourishing and thriving. That's different. So we're going to just jump in to tell people your story and where all stories start is your childhood so we can get a full picture of you are. So if you want to just tell us how old you are and where you grew up, maybe a little bit about your childhood experiences.
Josh Durbin:
So I'm 41 years old. I grew up in Southern California. I had what you would call a traditional welfare childhood. I had a great mother. She was always in the picture, but it was your drug scene living on welfare kind of childhood.
Denalee Bell:
Where at in California?
Josh Durbin:
Riverside, California.
Denalee Bell:
Okay, okay.
Josh Durbin:
And we moved from Riverside to Banning California back to Riverside. There was really never a stable housing, constant moving. Growing up, there was many nights where we would go to sleep, me and my brother, and we would wake up and the house would still be full of people. Typical drugs, constantly running through the house of people. You don't know anybody in your house when you go to sleep, and they're there when you wake up.
Denalee Bell:
And how old were you when that started?
Josh Durbin:
So a lot of my memory of being a kid is real blurry, but I do remember all the way back to when I was eight, nine years old, this happening, 10, 11.
Denalee Bell:
And where was your father at this time?
Josh Durbin:
So my dad lived in Boise, Idaho, and I used to get the opportunity to come see him during the summertime.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I remember one time when I was able to come up and spend the summer with him. He had actually was married to... I can't remember the lady's name anyway. And she had four kids as well. So we all lived in this house, and when it was time for bed, we weren't allowed to eat anymore. Food was done and we didn't get to eat very much. We were either living in the back of a station wagon or we were living with somebody. And I remember one night when my dad had came upstairs and he found a jar of jelly in my closet. And before everything was said and done, he had thrown me down a flight of stairs.
Denalee Bell:
How old were you?
Josh Durbin:
Little. Very little. Under 12, maybe 11. I had called my grandma after that happened who lived in Riverside at the time, and she reached out to the Nazarene church. From that pastor to another pastor came and picked me up.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, wow.
Josh Durbin:
They took me to their house that night. I was on a plane the next day back to California.
Denalee Bell:
Back to live with your mom?
Josh Durbin:
Back to live with my mom. And that was the last time I seen my dad until I was 18, 19.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, okay.
Josh Durbin:
Childhood was not very good. It's not what you would call a stable environment for sure. There was a point in time in my life where I believe that my mom did her best. She really did. She tried. She let her addiction get the best of her, and she accepted the fact that she had lost, and she took me and dropped me off with my grandma.
Denalee Bell:
That was brave-
Josh Durbin:
Very brave.
Denalee Bell:
... and hard. I'm sure.
Josh Durbin:
She dropped me off with her, and then that's where I grew up basically is with my grandparents.
Denalee Bell:
Your grandma. Okay. And is that the grandma I met?
Josh Durbin:
It is.
Denalee Bell:
I like her.
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
She's a cool lady. And how old were you when you went to live with grandma?
Josh Durbin:
I was a teenager.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I can't remember exact age, but I know I was a teenager. I hadn't really started my life of crime or drugs or anything like that yet, but I did find them pretty quick.
Denalee Bell:
How old were you when you very first tried drugs or alcohol?
Josh Durbin:
I want to say I was probably 13 when I did meth for the first time.
Denalee Bell:
13?
Josh Durbin:
14.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. That's young.
Josh Durbin:
Maybe 14.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah.
Josh Durbin:
My mom is the one who taught me how to do meth.
Denalee Bell:
So you did drugs for the very first time with her?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
How did that situation unroll? Was there a party? Were you in the house with her? What happened?
Josh Durbin:
My mom had a rule that she always, or saying, that she would say that she would rather I do things at home than out on the street somewhere. I had got curious about drugs in general, smoking cigarettes. And I had asked my mom for a cigarette one time, she gave it to me. I asked my mom for some pot one time, she gave it to me.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
And then as I started getting older, I think I was 15 years old, I was dating a 27-year-old stripper at the time-
Denalee Bell:
You were 15? Okay.
Josh Durbin:
... who was a friend of my mom's, who was married at the time. And somehow it came up, but meth got brought up and I wanted to try it. So my mom-
Denalee Bell:
And you had witnessed it and seen it?
Josh Durbin:
I've seen it my whole life growing up. I wanted to try it, and so my mom let me try it. And it was kind of a downward spiral from there. I had got arrested when I was a teenager in Riverside, California. I was caught joyriding in a stolen car with some guys.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I got put on probation.
Denalee Bell:
How old were you when... I'm sorry, did you...
Josh Durbin:
Maybe 15, 16, 15-ish. Got put on probation and I went to juvenile hall for, I think, 10 days in Riverside, California. And then got out of that and I was placed in drug court. I was the first class to graduate drug court in California, made the front page of the paper. It was a big deal. Other than that, that's basically childhood in a nutshell.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And you said you moved around a lot.
Josh Durbin:
We did.
Denalee Bell:
So how many houses do you think you lived in?
Josh Durbin:
With my mom, she tried her hardest to keep us in the same one, but it didn't work out so well. We probably lived in five, six different places. Living with friends. I know at one point in time we lived in a motor home in my grandparents' bottom driveway. Growing up, we had to shower outside with a garden hose. It was rough.
Denalee Bell:
Was that fun when you were a kid or was that rough?
Josh Durbin:
At first, you think it's kind of fun, but then it becomes pretty embarrassing as you start to realize what's going on.
Denalee Bell:
And get friends?
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So I didn't provide a super stable life for my kids either. We just answered the question for my oldest son, how many times we had moved around, because Dave would build homes and we would move in and out of them, and he'd probably lived in 24 homes-
Josh Durbin:
Wow.
Denalee Bell:
... which is really unfortunate for children. I didn't realize. We tried to keep him in the same school district, but it's really destabilizing to have to make new friends and do new things and start. It's almost like starting life all over again.
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
And then I think you get behind on... He's probably ahead on meeting people and making friends, but then you're behind on other things because that's what you're focusing on. It's kind of the social survival of a child. Did you feel bad at all?
Josh Durbin:
Didn't really have very many friends. It was hard to make friends. But I did have a couple friends as I got older, but we never really had a stable enough environment to create that relationship with other people.
Denalee Bell:
That's sad too, huh?
Josh Durbin:
It is. It sucks.
Denalee Bell:
Do you have friends now, or do you find it hard to still make friends?
Josh Durbin:
I find that people nowadays, it's easier to not be friends with people because if you make friends with someone, it's almost like you're willing to take on their problems, is how I feel. So if I just keep you as an acquaintance, your problems don't become my problems.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, I mean, that's good, right? We have to separate people's problems, but it also, I think is a good skill you have within our business, how you separate that for people and teach them. I think you're big on personal responsibility, right?
Josh Durbin:
Accountability is a big thing to me.
Denalee Bell:
It is.
Josh Durbin:
It is.
Denalee Bell:
How did you do in school?
Josh Durbin:
School was great. I didn't have one particular school district my whole life, which kind of sucked. I did good. I was going to drop out of high school when I was 17 years old. Just didn't want to do it. I was working for my grandpa at the time, and I got the opportunity to go to a continuation school in Southern California, and I was able to complete two years of high school in one year, and I was able to actually graduate and get my diploma.
Denalee Bell:
Good.
Josh Durbin:
So schooling was good.
Denalee Bell:
Did you play sports? Were you involved in-
Josh Durbin:
I played baseball for about 16 years.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, wow.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah, that was my life growing up.
Denalee Bell:
Was that your thing?
Josh Durbin:
It was.
Denalee Bell:
You were good?
Josh Durbin:
I was really good at it. I enjoyed it. I knew I was good at it.
Denalee Bell:
That's good.
Josh Durbin:
Kind of cocky.
Denalee Bell:
That's good though, that you had something-
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
... like that, I think. So I guess that leads us to... We can kind of see a trajectory of where this might have led into drug and alcohol use, right? Or what did you use?
Josh Durbin:
Drug-wise?
Denalee Bell:
Drug or an alcohol.
Josh Durbin:
I wasn't much of an alcoholic.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I enjoyed having a beer now and then. Even to this day, I enjoy maybe a glass of wine. That's about it. Not much of an alcohol fan. Drug-wise, I've used almost every drug there is other than heroin and crack cocaine.
Denalee Bell:
What was your favorite?
Josh Durbin:
Methamphetamine.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. What do you think you liked about it?
Josh Durbin:
I liked the rush that it gave you. It was coming down off the rush that was the hardest part.
Denalee Bell:
But it was worth it to have the rush?
Josh Durbin:
It was. It's hard to say this, but the high that you get from methamphetamine is the best feeling you could ever get in life.
Denalee Bell:
Really? Can you remember it?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, you can?
Josh Durbin:
Yes, I can. I can remember it as it was like yesterday.
Denalee Bell:
And how many years have you been clean?
Josh Durbin:
I've been clean since 2018.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So do you still ever have the desire?
Josh Durbin:
No, I do no longer have the desire to use drugs.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. There's never a craving or an urge?
Josh Durbin:
There's none.
Denalee Bell:
Never a thought?
Josh Durbin:
I'm at the point now in life where I can turn things off. That might sound weird, but I could wake up tomorrow and say, "I'm going to go do drugs today." Or I could wake up tomorrow and say, "I'm not going to do drugs today." The cravings will be there if you want them to be there. If you're looking for something to cover that part of your life up, then you'll reach for it.
Denalee Bell:
You got arrested in high school, right?
Josh Durbin:
Mm-hmm.
Denalee Bell:
And then when was your... Did you go to prison once or twice?
Josh Durbin:
I've been to prison three times.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, three times. Okay. What was the first time for?
Josh Durbin:
So in 2002, I got arrested for grand theft and burglary. I was living in McCall at the time. I had went out and broke. I had just moved to Idaho. I moved into a trailer in Cascade, Idaho. I had no furniture. I had nothing. I just had the clothes that I came with. I met a few guys. We roommate together. We had nothing. We started doing meth.
Denalee Bell:
And I'm sorry, how old were you at this time?
Josh Durbin:
Probably 19.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
About 19.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I think 20.
Denalee Bell:
And everyone did meth in this group?
Josh Durbin:
Yes. We all kind of grouped together. One meth user, you can usually find the other ones. And we came up with this idea that people have cabins in McCall. So we went and decided to break into the cabin, and I took their furniture, I took their silverware, and I moved their stuff out and I moved it into my house so I had things.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, okay. Because you had nothing?
Josh Durbin:
I had nothing. And so for some reason I thought that was okay. So I had got arrested for burglary and grand theft.
Denalee Bell:
So how did you get caught?
Josh Durbin:
So a few days later, after we came up with this grand idea to steal the furniture, I drove by a job site where somebody was framing, and I pulled in there and I stole some tools that were just sitting there. I took the tools down and I pawned them. And then it was maybe three days later that the cops came looking for the guy that pawned the tools. So there was already a police report made for the furniture and it all just kind of [inaudible 00:16:34] from there.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And they noticed the furniture-
Josh Durbin:
Yep.
Denalee Bell:
... and it was in there. And how long did you go to prison for?
Josh Durbin:
So I went to jail for that.
Denalee Bell:
Okay, jail.
Josh Durbin:
And while I was sitting in jail, it was my first felony charge ever, the first offer I got was three plus seven for a total of 10 years.
Denalee Bell:
At 19?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
That's scary.
Josh Durbin:
So the judge gave me the opportunity for a rider program, so I took it.
Denalee Bell:
What's that?
Josh Durbin:
The rider program is usually 180-day program that's held on a different prison yard up north at that time. And the judge still holds jurisdiction over you. After 180 days, he brings you back in front of him. And depending on how you did in that program, they can grant you probation or they can impose your sentence.
Denalee Bell:
So it's a program in a prison system?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. That you have to go through some kind of rehabilitation?
Josh Durbin:
Kind of.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
And it's 180 days of classes and everything along those lines. I did the program, felt like I did pretty good. I came back, went in front of him. He gave me an additional 365 days in county jail. So I did the county jail. I was released from there a year later.
Denalee Bell:
So I have a question about the program. Did you learn anything from the classes? Did it help you in life, or was it just something you were getting through to get through what the judge had required of you?
Josh Durbin:
I got absolutely nothing out of the program.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Was that because there was nothing good being offered, or was that because you weren't into it?
Josh Durbin:
The programs that the prison system offers are good if you're willing to accept it.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So it's like anything what you put into it, right?
Josh Durbin:
I didn't believe I had a problem.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, okay.
Josh Durbin:
I was young, I was dumb, so I just-
Denalee Bell:
Well, you were 19.
Josh Durbin:
... did what I had to do to get out of jail.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So you probably spent a total of 365 days plus the 180?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
That's a long time for a young man.
Josh Durbin:
Yes, it is.
Denalee Bell:
That changes you.
Josh Durbin:
It does.
Denalee Bell:
And then you came out.
Josh Durbin:
Mm-hmm.
Denalee Bell:
And then what caused the next charge? Or were there any other scares or charges in between?
Josh Durbin:
There was. I ended up moving from McCall to Boise to Meridian, and somehow found myself right back into the meth scene.
Denalee Bell:
Why do you think?
Josh Durbin:
I think going back to the meth scene was a comfort zone because I had underlining problems that I didn't want to deal with. So you blanket those, right? You choose to do drugs.
Denalee Bell:
And the people in the social environment was familiar?
Josh Durbin:
Correct.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And comfortable.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm.
Josh Durbin:
If you do drugs and you hang out with those kind of people, you're comfortable because that's your scene. It's sad, but it's true. I was on probation out of Valley County, moved to Boise, wasn't supposed to move. I did anyway.
Denalee Bell:
Because you're a young man and you're going to do-
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
... what you want to.
Josh Durbin:
There's a knock at the door, open the door, and there was a bunch of cops there looking for me. When they came inside, there was a bunch of meth that was found, there was some pills that were found, and I was arrested for possession of methamphetamine.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And what was the consequences of those actions?
Josh Durbin:
Went to court and ended up getting a three plus four sentence for a total of seven, plus the three plus seven out of Valley County, and I had my sentence imposed. I was sent-
Denalee Bell:
Three plus seven, so you're meaning like 10 years?
Josh Durbin:
It's a total of 10 years, but when you say three plus seven, it's three fixed with seven indeterminate. You're going for a minimum of three, maximum of 10.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And how long did you actually spend there?
Josh Durbin:
I went in for three and a half years.
Denalee Bell:
Three and a half years. Okay. Oh my goodness. So how old are you by this time?
Josh Durbin:
I'm in my mid-20s at this time.
Denalee Bell:
You're mid-20s and now were up to three and a half, four, almost five, six years?
Josh Durbin:
Combined. Yes.
Denalee Bell:
So most of your adulthood at this point is spent incarcerated?
Josh Durbin:
I spent more of my adult life incarcerated than not.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And so you get out.
Josh Durbin:
Mm-hmm.
Denalee Bell:
And then where are you in life? What's going on?
Josh Durbin:
I get released from prison and my girlfriend that I had before I went in, we had kids together.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, I didn't know that.
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, yeah, I do. I guess I know Josiah.
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
I don't know him. I know of him.
Josh Durbin:
I moved out to Star and I'm living out there. She's seeing another guy. I found out that while I was incarcerated, she was seeing somebody else.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, okay.
Josh Durbin:
So one night I came up with this idea that I was going to go down to The Torch because I knew her sister worked there.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And The Torch is?
Josh Durbin:
A strip club.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. That's what I thought. I just wasn't sure.
Josh Durbin:
So I went down to the strip club, found her sister, and took her sister home.
Denalee Bell:
Uh-oh. I just don't think this story is going to end well.
Josh Durbin:
It's not. I wasn't really too familiar with pills at the time because they really weren't my thing. But the sister really loved pills, so she introduced that into my life.
Denalee Bell:
So what kind of pills?
Josh Durbin:
Anywhere from Oxycodone to Hydrocodone to Xanax, those kinds. So I'm living with her now.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah, because aren't those kind of the opposite of meth? They're kind of downers and meth is kind of an upper?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
And people, do they tend to be one or the other, like an upper or downer person? Is that a thing?
Josh Durbin:
They usually are, unless you really enjoy not being in your element.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Then you'll take whatever to make you not be in reality.
Josh Durbin:
Correct.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
So I'm living with the sister. I end up marrying the sister.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, wow. Did you guys ever do Thanksgiving together all as a family?
Josh Durbin:
So the whole marriage was all out of spite. Everything was. So my goal was to completely ruin the family. So I did.
Denalee Bell:
Because where would you learn throughout your whole adulthood coping skills, right?
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
They're not teaching those in prison, are they?
Josh Durbin:
No. I'm with the sister at the time, addicted to pills. We had got into an argument one night and she had threatened to call the cops on me, and I grabbed her phone and I broke the phone. So the next door neighbor called the cops. They showed up and I got arrested for destruction of a telecommunication device.
Denalee Bell:
What?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
They arrest people for that?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Oh my gosh. I've broken many phones.
Josh Durbin:
So being that I was charged with a misdemeanor and I was on felony parole, that violates my parole.
Denalee Bell:
I have to say, this is a weird charge. Did you think this was a weird charge?
Josh Durbin:
I thought it was. I didn't think it was real.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. I just need to make sure I understand this. How did they find out? Did she call the cops?
Josh Durbin:
Our next door neighbor called the cops.
Denalee Bell:
You broke the phone?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
And this was enough for them?
Josh Durbin:
Apparently, if you are in a domestic dispute and one person is trying to call the police and you break the phone, you're preventing them.
Denalee Bell:
I see. You're preventing them from getting help.
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. That makes a little more sense.
Josh Durbin:
So being on parole, charged with misdemeanor, it automatically violates my parole. So I get sent back to prison.
Denalee Bell:
No.
Josh Durbin:
Yes. I go to court.
Denalee Bell:
So is this number three?
Josh Durbin:
This was just a quick stint.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I go to court, but they ship me back out to the prison. Parole is violated. I go to court. The charge is dismissed. But at this point, my parole has already been violated. So now there's an entire process that you have to go through before you even get back in front of the parole board for them to see that the charge has been dismissed before you can be released again.
Denalee Bell:
How long does that take?
Josh Durbin:
That's a year.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. That's a long time.
Josh Durbin:
So you sit out at the prison for a year for a charge that was dismissed.
Denalee Bell:
Wow.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. And did you feel at this point that your growth was stunted from being in there or that you're learning or your life?
Josh Durbin:
I don't think that my life really had a meaning during all of that. Only thing I worried about was women and money and drugs, of course.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm. Wow. So then let's go to the next.
Josh Durbin:
Okay.
Denalee Bell:
The next stint.
Josh Durbin:
So I get out. My life is great. I had made a decision that I wasn't going to get in trouble anymore. I was going to turn my life around. I met Dave Bell and went to work for him.
Denalee Bell:
That's my husband.
Josh Durbin:
I go to work for Dave. Things are great. I start dabbling back into pills a little bit here and there. Hadn't touched meth, stayed away from it.
Denalee Bell:
So you hadn't been in the workforce a long time when you first came to work with us?
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
I didn't know that.
Josh Durbin:
There was work history, but it wasn't consistent.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
So I'm working for Dave, dabbling in pills here and there. Enjoying it, working, framing outside all day long.
Denalee Bell:
Well, and framing is hard work, right?
Josh Durbin:
It's very hard, very physical.
Denalee Bell:
So it probably took some pain out of your body as well.
Josh Durbin:
Yes. Before I realized it, I was spending about $700 a week on pills.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. Wow. Where did you get enough money to do that?
Josh Durbin:
I have no idea.
Denalee Bell:
Always how I don't understand how this works. Like these pills, these drugs cost money and it's always an exorbitant amount that seems impossible. I mean, that's almost three grand a month. And I know in 2012, we weren't paying that much-
Josh Durbin:
No.
Denalee Bell:
... for people new.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So you found the money.
Josh Durbin:
Found the money. We buy the drugs. I'm with my wife at the time.
Denalee Bell:
Is this wife number two?
Josh Durbin:
This is Ana.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, Ana. Okay, your current wife.
Josh Durbin:
She's actually wife number three. But we don't talk about the first one.
Denalee Bell:
You're a different person. You can just not pretend like that didn't exist.
Josh Durbin:
She's wife number four.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
But we don't talk about the first three.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. That's wise.
Josh Durbin:
So I'm with Anna and we're addicted to pills at this point.
Denalee Bell:
Anna was too?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Wow.
Josh Durbin:
A hundred percent addicted to pills.
Denalee Bell:
How did you meet her?
Josh Durbin:
So I went to a Super Bowl party and I had a brunette girl that was there with me. And this blonde girl showed up with another blonde girl, and I couldn't help but stare.
Denalee Bell:
Well, she is beautiful.
Josh Durbin:
Thank you.
Denalee Bell:
She's beautiful.
Josh Durbin:
I couldn't help but stare at her. And at the end of the party, I didn't really know who she was, but I knew her friend. So I actually stalked her on Facebook and found her and striked a conversation with her.
Denalee Bell:
That was all she wrote?
Josh Durbin:
And she invited me to come down to her house in Jerome, where she lived. So I went and spent the weekend with her. A friend of mine at the time, his name was Josh, he told me on our way down there, he says, "Do not fall in love." And I said, "I'm not. I'm just going down for the weekend." And here we are 11 years later.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. So you guys went down this road together. Was she already doing pills?
Josh Durbin:
So Anna had experience with pills.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
She wasn't a junkie at the time.
Denalee Bell:
Uh-huh. Does she mind us sharing this?
Josh Durbin:
No, she won't mind.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
My brother, not blood brother, but basically my only true friend I've ever had in this world, was released from prison and he moved in with us. And I did everything in my power to try and help him succeed. My life was failing at the time due to my pill addiction. And I was trying to help him so bad. He went to work for Dave. And then somehow in between that time he found meth and started doing meth. So he got fired from his job and moved out of my house.
Denalee Bell:
He was working for us?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
He moved out of my house and ends up getting arrested, and he gets sent back to prison. By now, Anna and I are so deep into our pill addiction that we can't hold down a house, we can't pay our bills. We're living with my mom. We've lost everything.
Denalee Bell:
Was your mom still doing drugs and drinking?
Josh Durbin:
My mom's been clean for... I'm going to ballpark this.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
10, 12 years, 13, 14 years, something.
Denalee Bell:
So she was clean?
Josh Durbin:
My mom's been clean for a long time.
Denalee Bell:
She was clean when you guys moved in with her?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Thank God. Praise God.
Josh Durbin:
I know, right?
Denalee Bell:
Yeah.
Josh Durbin:
She's such a great person when she's not on drugs.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. I mean, I bet we all are. We're all better that way, right?
Josh Durbin:
So we're living with mom and we're addicted to pills. Mom knows we're on pills. She can see it. I meet some people. We come up with this idea that we're going to move from New Plymouth to Boise. So we leave. We move to Boise. Anna and I are there. One night, we're all drinking in the garage. Let me back up here. Sorry. JD goes to prison. I get a phone call about three or four months later that JD died. The phone rings, I answer the phone, and the person that I'm speaking with is the warden from the Idaho Department of Corrections. And he said, "I'm calling to let you know that you're listed as JD's emergency contact, and I'm calling to let you know that he died."
Denalee Bell:
How'd he die?
Josh Durbin:
I immediately hung up the phone because I thought it was a joke. They called back and they said, "This is not a joke. He's dead." Something happened to me. I don't know what it was. I lost all feeling, emotion, everything in my body for anyone or anything. And I went down a dark road.
Denalee Bell:
How old were you at this point?
Josh Durbin:
I was in my 30s. I was in my 30s. We're sitting at a house in Boise and a couple of the guys had this idea that we were going to do some coke. I had never done coke. It wasn't my thing. But I was like, "Sure, let's give it a shot." Well, they couldn't get any. Nobody could find any coke. The guy that I was-
Denalee Bell:
This clearly wasn't the '80s.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly. So the guy that I'm buying my pills from lives in Ontario, Oregon. I knew if he sold pills, he sold meth. Where you get one, you get the other. And nobody could get coke. So I came up with the idea, "Why don't we just get some meth? It's just as good." So everybody's on board with it. So I leave. Ana's asleep at the time. She has no idea what's going on. I drive out to Oregon. I pick up some meth. I bring it back. Me and all the guys did a couple lines of meth. And something happened that night that I decided I want to do meth for the rest of my life. And I end up going down to a finance company, buying a motorcycle in somebody else's name with their driver's license, getting a loan with this loan officer. I drive off with a motorcycle.
Denalee Bell:
How did you get access to all that? Did you-
Josh Durbin:
So I used JD's driver's license because I had it, because it was in his belongings that I got from the prison. And I went and sat down. We looked similar. Sat down, filled out the application.
Denalee Bell:
Probably felt like a victimless crime because he wasn't there.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly. I believed in my mind, buying that motorcycle was a part of JD in my life. And I know that sounds really foolish, but it's the truth.
Denalee Bell:
I mean, I don't think anyone's making great decisions when they're in that situation.
Josh Durbin:
So I buy the motorcycle. Months go by, Anna and I are now full-blown into meth-
Denalee Bell:
Wow.
Josh Durbin:
... because of that one night. Anna's at the point now where she doesn't trust anybody around her. Doesn't trust me. I don't trust her. I don't trust anybody around. We ended up moving to Payette, leaving Boise, moving to Payette. I left the motorcycle behind at a buddy's house. I'm in Payette and I'm living in this trailer. Got my kids there. They're not in school. Anna's there with me. And my whole life was all about meth. It wasn't providing for my kids, it wasn't getting food, it wasn't working, it wasn't caring about my wife, it was drugs.
Denalee Bell:
And where were your kids at this time?
Josh Durbin:
They were living with us.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm. Just kind of on their own?
Josh Durbin:
Yep.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And how old were they?
Josh Durbin:
I don't know.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I can't remember.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Do they remember that?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
The kids remember it. They never talk about it. This was the year that we had all the snow.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
That big-
Denalee Bell:
Snowmageddon?
Josh Durbin:
Yep. I'm outside shoveling snow. I had been up for about three or four days at this time, shoveling snow. And these two detectives come walking up to me and they said, "Josh." I said, "Yeah." They said, "Do you know anything about a blue motorcycle?" I said, "Nope. Nothing."
Denalee Bell:
What were you feeling inside?
Josh Durbin:
Run.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah.
Josh Durbin:
I should run.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm.
Josh Durbin:
So they wanted to go inside. I wouldn't let them inside the house. I said, "You can talk to me out here in the middle of the snowstorm."
Denalee Bell:
We'll make this super uncomfortable for you.
Josh Durbin:
I knew if they went inside, they would find the drugs.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm. They'll find something.
Josh Durbin:
Right. So I kept them outside. They were investigating me for the motorcycle forgery. I was being investigated for forgery for the loan. They couldn't find the motorcycle. They had no eyewitness that I was the person in there. They knew that I did it. They just couldn't prove it.
Denalee Bell:
Or they would've had a warrant, right?
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
One of the-
Denalee Bell:
Did you know this when they're talking to you?
Josh Durbin:
I do.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Because you're savvy now to the system?
Josh Durbin:
Of course.
Denalee Bell:
This is just from my years of Law & Order watching.
Josh Durbin:
One of the detectives that showed up wasn't actually a detective for the police department. He was a detective for the Idaho Department of Corrections. So inside the Department of Corrections, they have an investigation unit and they investigate any activity and drug use and everything that's involved in the prison system.
Denalee Bell:
But you weren't in the prison system.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly. But if you're part of that life while you're incarcerated, it follows you out here.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. Okay.
Josh Durbin:
So if you're involved in drugs and gangs in prison, when you're released, the investigation unit from the Department of Corrections will watch you out here as well.
Denalee Bell:
Is that because, are you still on parole at this time-
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
... or probation? Or what's it-
Josh Durbin:
I've been on parole since I was 19 years old.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, wow. You still have not been off?
Josh Durbin:
Never.
Denalee Bell:
Okay, okay.
Josh Durbin:
I've never legally had a beer-
Denalee Bell:
Wow.
Josh Durbin:
... at 41 years old.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. That's interesting.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly. It's kind of sad, but it's true. The Department of Corrections investigator at this point realizes who I am, knew who I was. I was trying to deny who I was at this time to them. They pat me down.
Denalee Bell:
Who did you say you were?
Josh Durbin:
They asked if I was Josh, and I said no. So I'm trying my hardest knowing that I have multiple felonies in the house. That could possibly be a life sentence at this point.
Denalee Bell:
And are Anna and the kids in the house at this point too?
Josh Durbin:
Yes, they are.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So is that going through your mind as well?
Josh Durbin:
Right. And I thought in the back of my head, if I keep them outside long enough, she's going to come looking for me. She's going to see me out front talking to some detectives. Maybe she could clean the house a little bit and hide some stuff.
Denalee Bell:
Now, were the kids, could they see this stuff happening?
Josh Durbin:
No. I never did anything in front of my kids.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Do you think they knew?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
So the cops finally realize who I am. They find out that I'm on parole still. So now they can go in my house as much as they want. So we go inside and they're looking for my wife. They know that she's there because they asked who was in the house, and I told them who was in the house. They find her, and she has a bag of meth in her bra. So now we're both arrested immediately. They find-
Denalee Bell:
How did they find the bag of meth in her bra?
Josh Durbin:
They patted her. Well, they asked her. They said, "Do you have anything on you that you shouldn't?" And she pulled it out.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
They start looking through the house and they find multiple baggies and scales and-
Denalee Bell:
Paraphernalia that would indicate drug use?
Josh Durbin:
... a lot of paraphernalia. Yes. So now we're both arrested.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Oh, how sad. So you're arrested again.
Josh Durbin:
Again.
Denalee Bell:
And you are 30s?
Josh Durbin:
I'm in my late 30s.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I got arrested for possession with intent to deliver, manufacturing methamphetamine.
Denalee Bell:
These are big charges in Idaho.
Josh Durbin:
Possession with intent to deliver, manufacturing methamphetamine.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. Were you manufacturing it?
Josh Durbin:
No.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, that's just what you were charged with-
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
... because you had a large amount?
Josh Durbin:
So the cop, the Payette Sheriff's Department pulled me outside. They said, "You're going to jail." I said, "I know." They said, "We're going to go search the house. Were we going to find anything?" I said, "No." He says, "Why not?" I said, "Because I got rid of it." He says, "Okay." So I get arrested and I go down to Payette County Jail, and I'm charged with this slew of trumped charges. And these charges, after almost a year of sitting in county jail, get dismissed because the Payette County Sheriff's Department officer lied on a sworn statement-
Denalee Bell:
Wow.
Josh Durbin:
... and I caught him. I was facing-
Denalee Bell:
It was a provable lie.
Josh Durbin:
Yes. I was facing a life sentence. When I found out that I was facing a life sentence, I didn't have anything to lose at this point. So we may as well take it all the way to jury trial.
Denalee Bell:
A life sentence?
Josh Durbin:
A life sentence. I was going to go to prison.
Denalee Bell:
Did you think about running?
Josh Durbin:
There was nothing I can do. I was in prison. I was in jail.
Denalee Bell:
Did you think about escaping?
Josh Durbin:
No.
Denalee Bell:
You don't?
Josh Durbin:
No.
Denalee Bell:
You can't say that even if you did, could you?
Josh Durbin:
No, I don't think so.
Denalee Bell:
I think I would be thinking it.
Josh Durbin:
As soon as I found out I was facing a life sentence, I decided, "What do I got to lose? Let's go all the way to jury trial."
Denalee Bell:
Oh, sure. Did you have a public defender or your own lawyer?
Josh Durbin:
I did. I had a public defender at the time. So when you are arrested, everything is, what you say, you incriminate yourself, right?
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm.
Josh Durbin:
So I asked my attorney, he says, "You admitted to the sheriff's department that you sold methamphetamine." I said, "No, I didn't. I never would admit that." No matter how high or drunk a person is, if they've had any time in the prison system, they'll never admit to doing anything like that.
Denalee Bell:
Amongst my time with addicts, they don't admit to anything.
Josh Durbin:
Nothing.
Denalee Bell:
Nothing.
Josh Durbin:
We will deny it all the way.
Denalee Bell:
And they lie till the end.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
And they're adept at it.
Josh Durbin:
Yes. I asked my public defender, I said, "Can I see the body cam footage where I told the officer that I sold methamphetamine?" And he says, "No, because I've already seen it." I'm like, "You saw it?" He goes, "Yes." I said, "And I said that?" He goes, "Yes."
Denalee Bell:
Your public defender said this?
Josh Durbin:
Yes. And I could not believe this. And I'm sitting in county jail and I'm going...
Denalee Bell:
And he wouldn't allow you to see it?
Josh Durbin:
Right. Because he works for the state.
Denalee Bell:
This is a tricky thing, isn't it?
Josh Durbin:
It is. So I sat there for almost a year, and it came down to the day to pick jury. And I picked up the phone and I called the public defender's office. I said, "You're going to bring me the body cam footage off of that officer," I said, "or I'll lock this jail down and we're not going to court. I need to see that video."
Denalee Bell:
Something within you knew?
Josh Durbin:
Yes. About an hour later, I get called for an attorney visit and I go up there and I asked him, I said, "Do you have the camera?" He says, "No, I got these papers for you." I said, "What's that?" And he goes, "This is a dismissal from the state."
Denalee Bell:
Wow.
Josh Durbin:
And I said-
Denalee Bell:
This feels corrupt.
Josh Durbin:
I said, "A dismissal?"
Denalee Bell:
Do you think it was? Do you think it was a mistake, or do you think he was...
Josh Durbin:
I think that the whole entire time the state of Idaho was expecting me to just give into them, being that I had such a long record and that I wouldn't be smart about it. But I had nothing to lose.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm. Well, and you were guilty of some stuff, right?
Josh Durbin:
I was.
Denalee Bell:
But you weren't selling it.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
I'm really irritated by your public defender. I bet you were too.
Josh Durbin:
Very.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I was so angry. I asked him, I said, "Dismissal? Why is there a dismissal?" Now, all of a sudden, they want to dismiss the charges against me. And he said, "It's because the state of Idaho... It's because the Payette County Sheriff's Department lied on a sworn statement, and they're willing to dismiss charges."
Denalee Bell:
Wow. So did they all get dismissed or just that one?
Josh Durbin:
Every charge got dismissed.
Denalee Bell:
Wow. Wow. How long were you in jail waiting, going for all this?
Josh Durbin:
Almost a year.
Denalee Bell:
Oh my word.
Josh Durbin:
It was almost a year of my life sitting in.
Denalee Bell:
And this was after Dave, and you had worked with Dave, right?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I was no longer working for Dave at this time.
Denalee Bell:
But it was later?
Josh Durbin:
Mm-hmm.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. And is this jail or prison?
Josh Durbin:
This is jail. This is the Payette County Jail that I'm sitting in. Let me back up a little bit here.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I got arrested that morning, and Anna got arrested as well, and she was charged with felony possession as well.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, wow.
Josh Durbin:
Now they found the meth on her. So she was guilty.
Denalee Bell:
Where did the kids go?
Josh Durbin:
They went with her grandparents.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
So we both get arrested. Anna ends up getting probation, doesn't end up going to prison, which is awesome. She gets out. I thought I was getting ready to get released. They were getting ready to reinstate my parole because the charges were dismissed. So now I'm going to get back out. I was then served with a warrant the next day out of Ada County for forgery. So I got transferred from the Payette County Jail down to the Ada County Jail now. And now I'm facing felony forgery charge for the stolen motorcycle. I had made a decision while I was sitting there. I just almost got sentenced to life in prison for a charge that was trumped up by the sheriff's department. I went into court. I admitted what I did down to every last word of everything that I did in that loan officer's building. I accepted it and I was sentenced to a two plus five.
Denalee Bell:
So potential seven years, right? But two for sure?
Josh Durbin:
Two for sure.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I was sitting in front of the judge.
Denalee Bell:
You can't do less than two?
Josh Durbin:
No less than two.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
Sitting in front of the judge and the prosecuting attorney brought up everything that I've done wrong in my life. Everything. That's their job, right? To make me look like the bad guy, which I was. I wasn't a very good person.
Denalee Bell:
But how'd that feel?
Josh Durbin:
It sucks. It really sucks listening to somebody.
Denalee Bell:
Regale your life without all the other information?
Josh Durbin:
Yeah. The judge looks at me and he says, "You do need to go to prison," he goes, "but you do need to be on parole because you're very productive on parole." He goes, "So you're going to go to prison for two years, but I want you back out because you do good under supervision." So I went back.
Denalee Bell:
What do you think the major contributing factors to you going to jail repeatedly were?
Josh Durbin:
My addiction is what led me to prison.
Denalee Bell:
You didn't seem to be afraid of committing a crime in fear of going back to jail. Sometimes people go to jail and they're afraid to go back, even just like a local jail for... I know somebody that got a DUI and he doesn't ever want to go back to jail. And you just didn't have that.
Josh Durbin:
It's what you make it. It really is.
Denalee Bell:
Was it almost like, we were talking about how when you got out, you went back to your friends and family, or not even your family, but your friends and that drug scene and it was just comfortable for you? Was jail somewhat comfortable for you?
Josh Durbin:
It gets comfortable after a while. You get into a routine where every single day you have your day planned out before it even starts.
Denalee Bell:
There was addiction. And what do you think was the reason that led to your addiction?
Josh Durbin:
A lot of people aren't going to agree with me on this.
Denalee Bell:
Well, it's your life. They don't have to.
Josh Durbin:
A lot of people will say that your drug addiction and the way you turn out in life is based off of your childhood and your parents. I think that's a load of crap. I don't think your parents and their life choices determine what you're going to be in life. You make your own decisions. Now, their life may have paved the road for you, but you make your own decisions at the end of the day.
Denalee Bell:
I agree with you. At some point you're an adult and you have to take ownership of your responsibility and your choices in life. And in the olden days, like biblical days, that might've been 13.
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
But I think we are cuddled as a society a little bit more than that in America. I wonder, do you think that... I mean, me just looking in on the story today, I'm wondering if the instability of not knowing where you're going to live, seeing that drug use wasn't a big deal, and being offered it, seems like a contributing factor to the start of it to me.
Josh Durbin:
It is. I think that paves the road.
Denalee Bell:
A factor.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. Not that it's your mom or dad's responsibility, but at the same time, that's how we learn. We model after our parents, right?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
So it'd be hard not to see in my children even some of the things that they've modeled after me that have been harmful to them.
Josh Durbin:
You are taught your whole life, though, in school that drugs are bad and everything is bad. Crime is bad. Drugs are bad. Whether you see it at home or you see it on TV, I don't believe that my parents are to blame for my addiction.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, I don't think they're to blame. So I grew up similarly to you, but it was alcohol. So alcohol was very acceptable in my family. I mean, my mom wasn't... It wasn't that big of a deal for us to drink. In fact, she would hand us beers at the lake. So for me, it was super acceptable. It was like, okay, this is just what you do. This is how we do things. It's okay to drink. And I was young, and I was probably 13. But it was just how you did things. And I wonder if that affected me and just the normalcy of it because I have friends whose parents didn't do that, and they didn't get into the kind of trouble I did. And so I wonder. I guess you have to wonder how much of that affected me, because when your mom or parent gives you permission to do something, even if it is illegal, it's like saying it's okay.
Josh Durbin:
I see what you're saying.
Denalee Bell:
Uh-huh. And then it's not a big deal. Or my dad as well. I mean, he bought me beer. And he was a recovering alcoholic. I mean, he hadn't drank since before I was born. But I was in high school, and I'd say, "Hey, we're going out tonight. We need beer," and he'd get us beer. So I didn't really have anyone saying no, or this is a bad idea. I thought this is just how you do it until I had kids. Then I was-
Josh Durbin:
You guys never did the thing where you stood out in front of the grocery store and asked people to buy your beer?
Denalee Bell:
Oh, we did that. We even went further. Because we didn't have money either. So we'd ask everyone if we could borrow a dollar from them, that we probably won't be paying back, but do you have a dollar? And we get enough dollars, and then we'd ask the local buyer.
Josh Durbin:
Oh, yeah. [inaudible 00:53:29] the store.
Denalee Bell:
Yep. Yeah. And then he would buy us the alcohol for the evening as well. Do you feel any responsibility for what you've taught your kids during this?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
About doing these things in front of them?
Josh Durbin:
A hundred percent.
Denalee Bell:
So why would you think that your parents don't have any responsibility?
Josh Durbin:
I'm not saying they don't have responsibility. I'm saying their drug addiction and drug habits that I've witnessed paved the road-
Denalee Bell:
Sure.
Josh Durbin:
... for me. They helped me learn the drug scene.
Denalee Bell:
Right. So that's-
Josh Durbin:
I believe that me doing drugs is not their fault.
Denalee Bell:
I would say eventually. But would you have done them without their permission?
Josh Durbin:
Yes. I don't think I would've done-
Denalee Bell:
Would you have done it if you hadn't been exposed to it by your parents?
Josh Durbin:
I don't know. Probably not. Maybe you're right.
Denalee Bell:
Well, I'm not saying this to blame our parents. It's more of... I've drank in front of my kids. I've done things in front of my kids that I'm not proud of. I've had other issues in my life. I had some codependent behavior that I taught them that was really highly inappropriate. And they've had to unlearn a lot from me because they modeled what I learned. And setting boundaries is something I just recently learned that, we did a whole podcast on that, Tyler has had to learn.
So I'm not saying this to beat up on your parents or my parents. My parents are completely forgiven, and I understand that they were hurt and broken, and that's the place they came from. And they didn't. Honestly didn't know better. Like they did the best... You know what I hate? I hate that saying they did the best they could because they didn't, right?
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
And did I do the best I could? No. I could have walked with God sooner. I could have understood what it was to be a parent. I could have learned what love was earlier. I could have done a bunch different. So did I do my best? No. Did my mom, I mean, does anyone?
Josh Durbin:
Nobody really.
Denalee Bell:
I also have this opinion, wherever we are is all we can give and do. And if somebody, like one of our parents, wasn't loved appropriately or had had trauma happen to them and they didn't know how to deal with it properly, it comes out in weird ways. It does for me. It did for my mom. It did for my dad. And so my dad had PTSD. He was in the war. He had a tough time. His dad died really young. There was a whole bunch of trauma there, and I feel safe talking about them because he died a year ago and I can't really hurt him by saying this. And it is his story, so I'm trying to be cognizant that we don't share other people's stories, but our own. But also, you can't help but notice a pattern in these stories. So there is a huge issue of men in prison who don't have fathers available to them.
Josh Durbin:
Correct.
Denalee Bell:
And it's like a huge percentage, and I just can't believe that that isn't part of what got you there. And this is just my opinion. This is not your-
Josh Durbin:
I think that a lot of people look for somebody to put the blame on instead of themselves.
Denalee Bell:
I think you're right in all areas of life. I think what I get concerned about when people dismiss where the problem started is then they don't completely fix it. Do you know what I mean? They don't break that chain. Not that either one of my parents... It's none of their fault who I am today because at some point I'm an adult and I have to make decisions, and I get the choice: I get to learn and grow or I get to use a victim card. And I don't think that's ever good. But I think if we don't recognize where the problem started, it opens us up to a vulnerability down the road, meaning...
Oh my goodness. I have this person in my life who's experienced a huge amount of trauma when she was a child. All the way from the time she was a child till she was 50. And it's almost like trauma was attracted to her. It was multiple things that happened to her. And she wasn't treated appropriately by her parents or by the men in her life. And it's almost like there was a pattern repeating itself. And I think if we don't see the pattern that often develops with our parents or our role models when we're young, we start to repeat it in different ways. It just keeps showing up.
So I would try to tell her, "You need to get counseling because it's showing up. You just think you're healed," because I could see it. Not that I think you're healed. I'm not saying that. I'm saying this more for viewers who might be watching. But she wouldn't focus on that because she just wanted to be healed. She wanted to say she was healed, but it came out in weird ways. She was super controlling because she couldn't control her environment when she was a young girl. She was super controlling and reactive because she was in pain. So it comes out in different ways. And it's not that you want to beat up your parents, but we have to understand where this started.
Josh Durbin:
I think it all starts... You're right. It does all start with your parents, but-
Denalee Bell:
I mean, it could be a teacher. It doesn't necessarily have to be one person, right?
Josh Durbin:
My mom taught me how to do meth.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah, that's awesome.
Josh Durbin:
So I blame her for teaching me how to do meth. I do.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, I thought you said math.
Josh Durbin:
No, meth.
Denalee Bell:
I thought you said math, and I thought that was sweet because my mom didn't teach me math.
Josh Durbin:
My mom taught me how to do methamphetamine, and I blame her for that. But I don't blame her for the decisions I made after that.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm. So you were 13.
Josh Durbin:
I was a kid.
Denalee Bell:
And your brain wasn't fully formed.
Josh Durbin:
Correct.
Denalee Bell:
Not that I'm giving you an excuse. I'm just saying that's a lot of responsibility for a 13-year-old to take. So when your daughter turns 13, would you think she should have that kind of responsibility?
Josh Durbin:
No.
Denalee Bell:
But you, for some reason, needed to have that kind of responsibility.
Josh Durbin:
I was very curious.
Denalee Bell:
Not that your daughter would do meth. Let's say it's a different thing, okay? Let's say you're a shoplifter. Let's pretend like you're a kleptomaniac and you teach your daughter how to do it. And she's 13 and thinks this is a good plan and continues to do it, even though you showed her one time.
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
Would you think that was your responsibility?
Josh Durbin:
I would. I would take responsibility for that.
Denalee Bell:
And at 13, how could it be hers?
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
She's not an adult. She doesn't even have the ability to consent or know. We look to our parents to see what's right and wrong.
Josh Durbin:
True.
Denalee Bell:
And I'm not saying I want to beat up your mom, because I'm really proud of her. And your dad, I'm sorry because he passed not long after my dad passed, right?
Josh Durbin:
Mm-hmm.
Denalee Bell:
I think they're in their own broken world. But I get concerned when people are judging. It's almost like taking responsibility and judging ourselves at a younger age than we really had the ability to form the right opinion.
Josh Durbin:
My mom holds a lot of guilt for what's happened in my life.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. Well, I mean, we don't want that either-
Josh Durbin:
I know she is.
Denalee Bell:
... because you've forgiven her. Right?
Josh Durbin:
I have. And she's an amazing person now. She was lost. She was so far lost that she didn't know what she was doing.
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm. And I can say the same for my parents. They were living in trauma without ever getting real help. So how could they have really done better when they're not even dealing with their own stuff?
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
And so I do have a lot of compassion for the pain that they went through that got them to where they were. And I don't even know that they need to be forgiven. I mean, I don't feel this irritation or uncomfortableness with them. It's more of... I mean, I guess I did in my 20s. I was angry at my mom and my dad. I was angry because I didn't understand. I had no compassion for what they might've been through to get there. But today I do. But I also recognize that, "Okay, this was wrong. We need to be more careful with our kids. This is wrong." When I mess up with my kids, I need to tell them it's wrong so they don't do that with their kids. That's just kind of my answer to things. It doesn't make me right, just my opinion.
All right. Moving on. So we somewhat agree, disagree on where the responsibility lies when you were 13. I think when you're in your 20s, it's fully your responsibility because you know right from wrong from society, like you said, from school, from being around people. You know what the law is. Your heart rate got raised when a cop came to the door, you knew.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
You knew it was wrong?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
But you were okay with it being wrong?
Josh Durbin:
I was.
Denalee Bell:
Why do you think?
Josh Durbin:
Anytime somebody decides to do drugs or break the law, that's their own choice. They've made that choice. So when I decided, "We're going to do some drugs. We're going to have a good time," I made that choice.
Denalee Bell:
So it was what you did also socially for fun?
Josh Durbin:
Yes.
Denalee Bell:
Okay.
Josh Durbin:
I really enjoy being in that circle as... I like to be the center of attention sometimes.
Denalee Bell:
Me too.
Josh Durbin:
So if you're the guy with the drugs-
Denalee Bell:
Yes.
Josh Durbin:
... [inaudible 01:04:04] want to be with you.
Denalee Bell:
That's interesting, because we did a podcast on self-image. You should watch it. But it kind of talks about, especially if you didn't... So I'm looking at your childhood. I'm not a psychologist. I'm just pretending to be one right now. But I look at your childhood and you said you didn't have a lot of friends because it was hard, because the circumstances. And I kind of understand that to some level, too, because a lot of kids maybe couldn't come play at my house and/or they could hang out with me, but some kids just couldn't hang out with me. But they would maybe, and they'd have to sneak, which... I mean, they tell you this and it just makes you feel less than. So in an effort to feel more than, I was the party girl. I was always the fun girl. "Let's go party. Let's go do whatever." And it kind of fed that within me to be okay, to be all right, that I was okay, that I was worthy. Can you relate to that?
Josh Durbin:
Not really. I never really felt worthy. I've always felt... And still, to this day, sometimes I don't feel like I'm good enough or I am enough. I battle that a lot.
Denalee Bell:
I think that is the problem of humanity.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Do you think that that maybe the contributing factor to where this road led?
Josh Durbin:
Could be. Very well could be. I don't feel... Let me see. How do I say this? Yeah, I don't feel that I am good enough, and I don't think I've ever felt that I'm good enough.
Denalee Bell:
Do you have moments of it?
Josh Durbin:
Sometimes, when it pertains to my kids and something good that they've done, but as a husband, I don't feel that I'm good enough, right?
Denalee Bell:
Mm-hmm. I will say that's what I related to because I would do things, like be the party girl, to try to be worthy and be good enough in my peers' eyes. But I would say that that was also the issue with the codependency is I didn't feel good enough. So I had to be the helper. I had to be the person who solved all the problems, paid for the lunches, did all of that so people would like me. And people just do it differently. They look for that recognition, that spot through maybe stuff, through materialism, through work, through drugs.
Josh Durbin:
Because you're trying to hide something in your life.
Denalee Bell:
Yes, and you're trying to feel all right and you don't quite feel all right. But the more I learn about life, the more I think everybody feels this on some level, and we're all kind of walking around like we're the only ones feeling it until I met God. And I think that what began my journey with him was, "Okay, what is love?" And he took me on this journey teaching me what love was, and I asked God, "How do you see me?" And I start seeing myself through his eyes and I start to feel enough. But is it like that all the time now? No, but it's the only time I felt enough. Only time is through God's eyes. Never through man's eyes because I never could be enough in this world. It's how the design works, right?
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
And the world doesn't want you to think you're enough, right? Or we wouldn't have Instagram with people selling a life that isn't real. We wouldn't have Facebook with people saying how great everything is when you know-
Josh Durbin:
It's just make believe.
Denalee Bell:
... what's really going on inside, right?
Josh Durbin:
All make believe.
Denalee Bell:
It is. Or people wouldn't do that. All right. So Josh, thank you so much for sharing those things that led up-
Josh Durbin:
Of course.
Denalee Bell:
... to where you are. I have to say, we talked about it when we took a break here a minute ago, it is just inconceivable to me that you have lived this life knowing you.
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
And I will say maybe in 2012, we had a couple incidents a few years before that with some employees where Dave felt it was really important for me to separate. I wasn't allowed to be around the employees anymore. We had somebody break into our house and we had another employee make threats and it was a safety issue. I think you're the first employee that has been in our home. You're the first since then, since years ago. So we completely trust you-
Josh Durbin:
That's awesome.
Denalee Bell:
... and feel good about you and you're more than just an employee. Obviously you're a friend and a business partner. So we're grateful to have you in our lives. And it truly is inconceivable that you live this life. When you say these things, I cannot really grasp how that person is the person I know.
Josh Durbin:
I think if you were to remove the tattoos off my body and you met me just on the street, you would have no idea.
Denalee Bell:
So even if I saw your tattoos, just because I'm not really adept in this world to knowing what's happening, I wouldn't mean to me in this day and age that you've been in prison.
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
But other people can recognize that?
Josh Durbin:
If you've been to prison and you've seen prison tattoos, it's real easy to spot the other prison tattoos.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So when you say that, is it a coloring or is it a specific design?
Josh Durbin:
It's the lightness of the black work. It's the single line work is real common in the prisons.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, because they don't have all the tools?
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. So you would like those removed?
Josh Durbin:
If I could remove from my knuckles to my elbow, I would love that.
Denalee Bell:
Oh, it'd be so much pain.
Josh Durbin:
I know. But I would be willing to go through the pain to have it gone.
Denalee Bell:
Why would that be important to you?
Josh Durbin:
Because I don't want to be judged anymore based on my appearance when I go places with my family or my wife. For instance, we went to Silverwood a few months back for my daughter's birthday and we went to the waterpark. I came out of there with my shirt off and I felt embarrassed with the political tattoos on me and the dumb racial propaganda. It's embarrassing.
Denalee Bell:
I'm sorry. I'm sorry you feel that way. I truly... I don't see them that way, but I don't know. So I'm assuming when somebody does know, they've probably been in your shoes and probably don't have a lot of room to judge. But I guess my prayer for you would be to relieve yourself of other people's opinions and judgments because it doesn't matter. What matters is God, your family, your wife, your cool grandma, your mom.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
Your daughter, your son. Their opinion matters, right? Nobody else's.
Josh Durbin:
We live our life based on what people think about us.
Denalee Bell:
We don't have to.
Josh Durbin:
I know we don't have to-
Denalee Bell:
It's a choice.
Josh Durbin:
... but people will go broke trying to oppress people they don't know.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah, they will. It's a sad thing. I think we used to do that. It is. It is. It's truth.
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
But it doesn't have to be. We don't have to. We can just choose not to.
Josh Durbin:
We can.
Denalee Bell:
It's a hard choice, especially when... We were talking about actually beautiful women the other day and how a man who... This is a psychology thing. This isn't me. This is another psychologist was talking about this, not another as if I'm one. I'm just an armchair psychologist.
Josh Durbin:
Right.
Denalee Bell:
She was talking about the power of a beautiful woman and how men, who maybe didn't have access to that when they were younger or because of maybe they weren't attractive enough or they didn't have enough money or whatever, they thought would produce this beautiful woman. And so they do these things to produce a relationship with this beautiful woman. Things that they wouldn't normally do, like spend more money, do these crazy things that they wouldn't even ever do just to have this ego filled of this beautiful woman. It's kind of like what you're talking about, the money. I'm just comparing it to a different item.
Josh Durbin:
Every guy wants a beautiful woman.
Denalee Bell:
Well, it's also an item to him, right? This isn't a relationship. This is, "I want this on my arm and I'm going to pay for it."
Josh Durbin:
Yep.
Denalee Bell:
And it's a very shallow way of looking at the world, but it's also very dangerous because you can also see the danger of the beautiful woman who is with you for money perhaps, because then you're replaceable. And I think that's the same thing with money, right?
Josh Durbin:
For sure.
Denalee Bell:
If we are impressing somebody with our beautiful woman or our amount of money, then it's a replaceable situation if we're not impressing them with our inner selves, of who we truly are, of our friendship, of our loyalty, of our love.
Josh Durbin:
But if you take a step back, when you meet somebody, the first thing you're going to do is look at that person. And even though you might not think you are, you're judging them based on their appearance before you even know them.
Denalee Bell:
I think we do a quick scan, right?
Josh Durbin:
So if I show up to your house and you don't know me, just based off the prison tattoos, you're going to create this image of me in your mind before you even know me.
Denalee Bell:
Well, I don't think I knew your story when I first met you or saw you. I didn't have any of those thoughts.
Josh Durbin:
Really?
Denalee Bell:
I didn't. I didn't, because I didn't know. I don't know things like that. You know what I mean? I'm not adverse to what a prison tattoo is versus a regular tattoo. And tattoos have become so acceptable in society. My kid has them, and we begged him not to get them. And that's what they do. It's what they do.
Josh Durbin:
My son already has one.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah. So it's just normalized now. So I mean, you couldn't have been through this in a better time in history. I mean, if this was 20, 30 years ago, you would stick out, right?
Josh Durbin:
Yeah.
Denalee Bell:
You don't really stick out anymore.
Josh Durbin:
That's good because I don't want to.
Denalee Bell:
You don't. You don't. But also, even if you did, I'd want you to rock that with confidence. "This is who I am. I was here and now this is who I am." And you should be proud of who you are because you've come a long way, you've beat this, you've beat the system, you've flown. You've flown.
Josh Durbin:
You have to beat the system every day.
Denalee Bell:
Yeah.
Josh Durbin:
Every day.
Denalee Bell:
Well, there's a system in your head you got to fight too, right?
Josh Durbin:
Yep.
Denalee Bell:
And you're just on the last leg. You're there, you're flying, you're thriving. And really, I'm proud of you knowing who you are. I think you've done a great job with your life and your family and building that. I think-
Josh Durbin:
Oh, thank you.
Denalee Bell:
... it's commendable even if you hadn't been where you've been.
Josh Durbin:
Right. It's a battle every single day.
Denalee Bell:
That's awesome that you're fighting it. Some people give up.
Josh Durbin:
Right. The second you feel that you're comfortable with drug use is the day you're going to relapse. You have to wake up every single day and tell yourself, "I'm not going to get high today."
Denalee Bell:
They say that with every issue. I was just hearing a pastor talk about this with adultery. He thought he was adultery proof because he was a pastor. And he goes, "I was just got complacent with it." And then he got involved in porn and it became an addiction and it moved into his family. I mean, I think it's in every area if you're complacent that it can't happen. Not that we want to constantly be on guard, but we don't want to be so arrogant to think we can't be affected by life.
Josh Durbin:
Exactly.
Denalee Bell:
Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that story of your early childhood life and the things that led you down this road.
Josh Durbin:
Of course.